Linked by Eugenia Loli on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 07:53 UTC
Novell and Ximian At its BrainShare conference, the company says its Novell Linux Desktop 10 will include a new desktop search technology, named Beagle, along with a technology for rendering the desktop using the GPU.
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Surpass windows
by Ché Kristo on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 07:59 UTC

Isn't it a bit annoying how loosely this was thrown together surpass windows how, can we be a bit more specific?

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:07 UTC

It already surpasses Windows, but you have to know how to use the command line. It has surpassed Windows for at least two years already. I guess that they are talking about people that just know how to point and click the mouse.

....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:10 UTC

Mono finally has an X86 binary installer as of Mar 10/05. That makes Mono usable finally. Novell is shaping up.

So.
by Michael on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:27 UTC

SO, they're waiting on Gnome 2.12. Good timing, they can test beagle in SLD9.3 while they(among others) work on cairo. I'll buy it.

I'm glad Novell is really taking linux seriously.

WinFS != ...
by DCMonkey on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:28 UTC

Great. Another person that doesn't understand what WinFS is (and therefore why MS is having such a hard time getting it out). It isn't just file metadata search. Windows already has that. With MSN search it has it somewhat better. In Longhorn it'll have it too without WinFS.

I should think someone in his position would know better. Actually, I bet he does.

x-server
by N-name on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:31 UTC

everything but beagle will reach fedora and ubuntu and mandrake, too, but what about this new x-server this article talks about?

is it x.org or is novell really developing their own?

....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:40 UTC

I'll take Nat's insight over yours any day.

RE: Great. Another person that doesn't understand what WinFS is
by Joes Momma on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:41 UTC

WinFS isn't anything. It doesn't exist. I've been saying this all along. Until it's released, it doesn't count....

Linux...
by Joes Momma on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:42 UTC

Read the article, it's more of the same.... Linux trying to be like Windows / OS X..... annoying.

RE: x-server
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:42 UTC

is it x.org or is novell really developing their own?

Although I can't say for sure, Novell hired a guy that was working on Xgl. Perhaps it will be ready as soon as they say?

v Wow
by mojo on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:47 UTC
RE
by Michael on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 08:52 UTC

About the X-server issue. I don't know if they are working on a server BUT Gnome 2.12 is slated for a September release, and it is to be used like OSX (everything is rendered with OpenGL) via cairo. If they are going for a yearly release then it would be November just long enough after the release to do some major testing. Like I said before, good timing.

Interesting.
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:06 UTC

is it x.org or is novell really developing their own?

I believe that they are talking about is xgl, which is an x-server that runs on OpenGL. You can read more here:

http://lists.freedesktop.org/pipermail/xorg/2004-November/004358.ht...

and in Nat Friedman's blog:

http://nat.org/2005/february/#9-February-2005

As for WinFS, it just seems to be in permanent beta, it was supposed to come out with NT or W2K wasn't it?. Obviously it's a lot harder to actually deliver than to sell.

The one that really interests me is Beagle. Because that means they re going to include Mono. Which could provoke all manner of interesting licensing/patent issues.

originality
by a non ymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:21 UTC

Virtual desktops on rotating cubes, 'like mac os x', desktop GPL, etc.. It would be nice to see some new stuff rather than what everyone else has done (OS X), or is doing (Longhorn).

so what do you want?
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:26 UTC

It would be nice to see some new stuff rather than what everyone else has done (OS X), or is doing (Longhorn)

What would you like to see?

If you don't tell anyone or get up and do it yourself it probably ain't gonna happen except by chance.

Alll very nice
by kaiwai on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:29 UTC

But how about some applications - you know, things like Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. I want the ability to be able to go down the road and simply purchase the software I want, off the shelf, by simply going to a Linux section and making a decision - the day that is made possible, will be the day Linux can go from a niche player to a mainstream operating system for the desktop.

re:all very nice
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:46 UTC

"But how about some applications - you know, things like Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. I want the ability to be able to go down the road and simply purchase the software I want, off the shelf,"

if you want proprietary software developers to develop products for Linux ask them that instead of posting off topic stuff on a Novell Linux discussion

@ kaiwai
by wakeupneo on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:49 UTC

Software delivery is becoming more and more internet based. Even MS have admitted as much recently.

http://news.com.com/Microsoft+gets+outside+the+box+with+software/21...

Linux and the *BSD's are already there. Time to let go of the box...

As for Adobe, Macromedia & all, give it time. They can only ignore a potential market for so long...or as a famous kiwi put it: "It won't heppen overnight, but it will heppen" ;)

Noise
by peteR on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 09:54 UTC

So my GPU gets noisier even if I don't play any game ? :-(
I know, eye candy is everything, it helps to distract people from the work.

v *lol*
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:10 UTC
you can't surpass Windows with GNOME
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:28 UTC

Sorry to say this but you can't surpass Windows with GNOME as Desktop.

1.Why not?

2.What does it lack to surpass Windows?

3.Does it need to surpass it or offer a different alternative?

@Paul
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:40 UTC

> 1.Why not?

The short and probably most offensive answer would be 'GNOME is broken'. I can go into details here but this would result in another 200 reply rant that I would like to avoid if possible. The reasons for GNOME not being able to do competition with Microsoft Windows is a) politics of the GNOME core development team, b) the badly designed framework that GNOME sits on, c) the lack of providing usable applications build ontop of this framework. It might be enough for the regular Linux freak but it's not really enough for corporate needs (which is just marketing talk anyways).

> 2.What does it lack to surpass Windows?

a) a good framework,
b) good and powerful applications,
c) consistency across applications,
d) integration across applications,
e) faster development to fix what really needs to get fixed,
f) a team of people doing quality assurance,
g) reliability within the applications,
h) reliability of the framework (e.g. gnome-vfs) as one example,
i) better communication of the userbase and their demands

and many more.

> 3.Does it need to surpass it or offer a different alternative?

The question is! Is GNOME an alternative ? KDE would be a real alternative here because it offers a lot of usable applications for science, communication, IT, technology, electronics, education and so on.

I'd really like to tell you more but this would require you to understand the technology behind GNOME a bit better, this means not just being able to install some stuff and style it with fancy icons. We need to dive deeper into the whole architecture of GNOME. In my opinion the NOVELL people are doing a huge mistake in following the path with GNOME here but at the end it's not my business at all - and after all it's just politics too.

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:46 UTC

You must work at Microsoft, knowing Windows source code and everything.

v ....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:48 UTC
Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:50 UTC

Still having a hard time accepting that your gonme fork didn't work out?

And btw., simply stating that Gnome is broken without backing it up still isn't a very convincing argument, though it is an improvement over your previous one, which consisted merely of *lol*.

"But how about some applications - you know, things like Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. I want the ability to be able to go down the road and simply purchase the software I want, off the shelf,"

if you want proprietary software developers to develop products for Linux ask them that instead of posting off topic stuff on a Novell Linux discussion


And how is this off topic? I am a customer, and thanks to Novells arrogance for failing to bring the applications I want to their platform, they've lost a customer; I know many customers who would be quite happy to throw some money at Novell. Since they don't consider mine or anyone elses money "worthy of their attention" then so be it - Apple can be happy to know that they've got a customer for the next four years.

a few things
by Dogacan Guney on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:55 UTC

First:
Isn't this a bit pathetic?
"NLD 10 will surpass Windows"

Doesn't this mean that NLD 9 is actually worse than Windows(I don't think it is...But they really make it sound like so...)

RE: to all who says "Mac OSX does that, even Windows3.11 had tat": Who cares? Beagle is a good tool, and it will be useful...Xgl is a neat idea, if it works out, it will be awesome...

RE: to the guy who says GNOME sucks

KDE may(does) include better technology than GNOME, but it scares away closed-source commercial applications(due to Qt's double-licence). Novell does the right thing supporting GNOME.

Re: kaiwai (IP: ---.jetstream.xtra.co.nz)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:56 UTC

I obviously missed something, so thank you for bringing me up to date.
One further question though, could you provide me some links as to exactly when Nove took over the development of Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. and made the decision not to develop these applications for their own platfom?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Dogacan Guney (IP: ---.adsl.ttnet.net.tr)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 10:58 UTC

"KDE may(does) include better technology than GNOME, but it scares away closed-source commercial applications(due to Qt's double-licence). Novell does the right thing supporting GNOME."

You are so right on this one. I mean, just look at the pletora of closed-source commercial applications written with gtk out there and the nearly total lack of closed-source commercial applications written with Qt.

Oh, wait...

Re:ralph
by Dogacan Guney on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:00 UTC

Well, the point is that:There will never be commercial or closed-source applications for KDE.
Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?
Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?

@ralph
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:05 UTC

> You are so right on this one. I mean, just look at the
> pletora of closed-source commercial applications written
> with gtk out there and the nearly total lack of
> closed-source commercial applications written with Qt.

Which of course is the half truth.

a) when someone writes closed source applications for GNOME then everyone cries up and call them a traitor or someone who should f*c* o*f because he/she hasn't understand the meaning of open source.

b) people usually reject using closed source applications if there are open source alternatives.

I know a lot of people if not everyone who uses open source because they want the stuff to be open sourced to have control over it, regardless if they are willing or able to contribute it. As soon as it comes to closed source stuff (look at the rants about JAVA) everyone (your likes) start to rant off how evil SUN is for not releasing it open source. But yet people like yours turn the coin and use the commercial closed source stuff available for GTK+ as some sort of 'look here, good companies are backing us'. But in reality you dont even use their apps. It's just some marketing stuff to make people believe in you and how great and l33t you are.

RE: Dogacan Guney (IP: ---.adsl.ttnet.net.tr)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:05 UTC

"Well, the point is that:There will never be commercial or closed-source applications for KDE."

Why is that the point? How can you support this claim when there are lots and lots of commercial, closed-source apps written with Qt out there?

"Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?"
I don't know, ask Adobe. But I would suspect that the few dollars they would have to pay for Qt aren't the reason. Btw., why do you think that there are other Adobe products out there using Qt?

"Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?"
Again, I don't think the few bucks they would have had to pay for Qt were too much for Nero. Btw., the used large parts of gcombust, so that may be a reason and this may also explain why it is written in plain old and ugly gtk1.

@Dogacan Guney
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:09 UTC

> Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?
> Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?

Needless to mention that KPDF (from KDE 3.4) as well as K3B surpasses both named commercial applications for miles. Everything remains is just the branding of the companies. What has a name on Windows doesn't necessarily need to have a name within the open source world.

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:09 UTC

What exactly did I do to warrant a personal attack? Was it mentioning that goneme is goneforgood now?

Anyway, do you really think that the reason Adobe isn't porting its programs to linux is due to some posters on /. and osnews possibly making negative comments about closed source software? You really should think again.

re:@Paul
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:13 UTC

Thank you for your answers.

If it is the case that Gnome has all these faults why are Novell and Sun offering desktops based on Gnome?

I'll be honest from the start. I am a Gnome user (note: user not bigot). I take it you are a KDE user? Apologies if my assumption is wrong.

I would be the first to admit that Gnome needs to improve in quite a few areas, but your assertion that 'Gnome is broken' is I believe, quite a bit wide of the mark. Because as far as I'm concerned, if it didn't work. I would not use it. And I don't suppose many other people would either.

I can't comment on KDE because I have not used it for a long time (last time I used it was 1.1.2 or something like that),
when was the last time you used Gnome? I am not trying to stir up a fight (I can never see the point) but I believe that to make valid accurate comment you (not you personally) need to have relevant up-to-date information. Now I believe that your points are in themselves valid, but nowhere near as grave as you paint.

Like I said. If it was as bad as you say noone would use it. Politics or not.

RE:@Dogacan Guney
by Dogacan Guney on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:15 UTC

I never said that KPDF and K3B are worse than their closed source counterparts. I haven't used KPDF(3.4) yet but i do think that K3B is an awesome program...

Anyway, that was not my point..


@ralph
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:19 UTC

> Anyway, do you really think that the reason Adobe isn't
> porting its programs to linux is due to some posters on /.
> and osnews possibly making negative comments about closed
> source software?

I really don't care if Adobe ports anything to Linux or not or if they release/port anything to open source or not since I am able to find good and usable open source alternatives already. My main concern here had to do with me questioning Novells decision to take GNOME as the desktop that they say that it surpasses Windows with the next upcoming release.

This is pure bullshit because Windows is more than just a Desktop with some shabby apps. Windows is an entire operating system a truly different dimension of code and stuff we need to take into consideration and talk about. But this doesn't mean that I am a supporter of Windows - I just like to mention the dimensions that people like you seem to ignore.

For the open source sector I think that KDE makes the better Desktop solution for users, customers and enterprise. This doesn't mean that KDE is perfect as it is right now - no it requires a lot of work as well but the framework that KDE currently offers is by far supperior of what GNOME offers. This is nothing that I need to explain in lengthy comments that you will ignore anyways or other GNOME fanboys it's simply a fact that it is how I say it.

For GNOME to seriously catch up with KDE it will take years and a lot more activity and code - not to mention to be able to catch up with Windows which is another dimension of its own.

This is a very bold claim
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:23 UTC

If Microsoft said "next year, we'll surpass " something, then everyone would laugh it off and call it marketing babble. When an eminent Linux guru (and I do resepect for Nat) says that, everyone believes him and say, "Look! Linux is the best."

So, using the same blunt knife to cut through all marketing speak, regardless of source: I'll believe it when I see it. For now, it amounts to nothing more than a promise that can easily be broken.

And Novell would help the world of Linux the most if they invent a universal software installer. The weight of software distribution should go on the software authors, not the OS authors (with their software repositories) . Quite frankly, both Windows and OSX are years ahead of Linux in that respect.

To all linux closed-source applications junkies
by Rawnak on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:27 UTC

Linux was meant to be free and open-source. However, suddenly because big names are entering linux, we all want to support closed source linux applications. So much so that we claim company shy of KDE/Qt because it forces them to either pay license fee for Qt or keep their apps open-source. What wrong with that? Why do they get paid something for nothing?

Anyway, my point is not for the companies. They will always be so. But definitely, to make a point, I feel the open-source community has lost its soul and GNOME must, knowingly or unknowingly, carry this burden.

I feel the best way would be for the GTK developers to change their license to force open-source apps only.

Risking here as being too melodramatic, I feel the soul of open-source is already dead ... with everyone claiming the GNOME model is better than KDE.

I thought linux was supposed to always be free and open. If it lead to world domination, that would be a pleasant surprise. But forcing it down people's throat by appeasing the corporate is down right cheap and unethical!

@Pail
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:27 UTC

> If it is the case that Gnome has all these faults why are
> Novell and Sun offering desktops based on Gnome?

The point is quite simple to answer. Novell offers desktop based on GNOME and KDE. They haven't settled to either one of those as many of their public statements made us users understand. But you also know that Novell bought Ximian because of the solutions they offer and that Ximian was mostly GNOME centric. The involvement from SUN was contract based if I am not mistaken. I recall that a SUN employee told me about this but recently SUN has been laying off a lot of developers who worked on GNOME (sorry I don't have a reference at hands atm). This is probably also policits and a matter of marketing and sales since GNOME is mostly USA centric.

> I take it you are a KDE user?

No.

> Apologies if my assumption is wrong.

No problem.

> I would be the first to admit that Gnome needs to improve
> in quite a few areas, but your assertion that 'Gnome is
> broken' is I believe, quite a bit wide of the mark.
> Because as far as I'm concerned, if it didn't work. I
> would not use it. And I don't suppose many other people
> would either.

I accept your first part of this quote but GNOME is really broken, the point is, you as user don't notice these things. It's not the visible stuff that I am refering to, it's more the architectual things that I like to refer to. Mostly code, stuff not really working (ever tried to connect to a FTP with GNOME and try leeching some directories or files) and other stuff.

> when was the last time you used Gnome?

As we speak, using GNOME from CVS.

Anonymous (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:30 UTC

"I really don't care if Adobe ports anything to Linux or not or if they release/port anything to open source or not since I am able to find good and usable open source alternatives already."

If you don't care and if it wasn't your point, why did you bring it up? Just because you wrongly thought it offered a good chance to portray me and others who disagree with you as zealots? Jesus, grow up.

"This is pure bullshit because Windows is more than just a Desktop with some shabby apps. Windows is an entire operating system a truly different dimension of code and stuff we need to take into consideration and talk about. But this doesn't mean that I am a supporter of Windows - I just like to mention the dimensions that people like you seem to ignore."

Where did I ignore anything? All I did was ask you to back up your point, which you are seemingly unable to do?

"This is nothing that I need to explain in lengthy comments that you will ignore anyways or other GNOME fanboys it's simply a fact that it is how I say it."
First off, calling me a Gnome fanboy is so way off base, you wouldn't even believe it. And claiming "it's simply a fact that it is how I say it." isn't really all that convincing.

So unless you finally come up with something worthwhile to say, apart from personal attacks and claims that are so incredibly well argued as "it's simply a fact that it is how I say it.", I consider this conversation over.

@ralph
by Bart on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:33 UTC

i completely agree with you.
kde as far as i know is more integrated than gnome
for example every files contains metadata that can be extracted without problems using only kdelibs.
you can also do searching by metadata with kfind....

From my opinion...
by Dextor on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:34 UTC

Novel should concentrate on a stable Mono development. You can see how microsoft developed advanced tools for Rapid application devepolment/deployment on windows using .net framework.

@ralph
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:35 UTC

> If you don't care and if it wasn't your point, why did you
> bring it up?

I didn't - it was Dogacan Guney who brought it up and I replied to him and later you replied to me.

> Jesus, grow up.

I prefer that you call me Anonymous, no need to call me Jesus - though I would like it ;)

> Where did I ignore anything? All I did was ask you to back
> up your point, which you are seemingly unable to do?

Look, if you really get me starting to back everything up (which has been brought up dozens and tons of times before and not only by me) then we both know where all this ends. Should we ? You seem to be quite provocative here and force this situation to occour so you can all jump on here for bashing.

> So unless you finally come up with something worthwhile to
> say, apart from personal attacks and claims that are so
> incredibly well argued as "it's simply a fact that it is
> how I say it.".

Whom was I attacking ?

it's all about applications
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:35 UTC

it's great that linux is as good or better than windows. to be honest, i don't care if the applications i use run on windows, osx or windows as long as it runs and does the job, great.

i love ubuntu on my laptop. detected all hardware and just works and i hate manually updating software on windows, but i still use windows reguarly, because of the software that doesn't exist for linux.

but linux is ready for the desktop and the first commercial software is ported. adobe and macromedia released stuff for linux, it's just a matter of time until they sell software for linux.

i see two big plaforms in 10 years:
linux/x86 and linux/ppc

;-)

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:43 UTC

"I didn't - it was Dogacan Guney who brought it up and I replied to him and later you replied to me."

Ah, I see, that's why you quoted me in your post and accused me of ranting against close-source applications because I wanted so show everyone how l33t I am.

"Look, if you really get me starting to back everything up (which has been brought up dozens and tons of times before and not only by me) then we both know where all this ends. Should we ? You seem to be quite provocative here and force this situation to occour so you can all jump on here for bashing."
Look, all I have been asking you for about 500 times now is to back up your assertion that Gnome is broken. This has nothing to do with me being provocative, you simply have to provide something to back up your assertion, otherwise posting it in the first place is pretty useless.

"Whom was I attacking ?"
Me.

v @ralph
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:46 UTC
RE:@Pail
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:52 UTC

I accept your first part of this quote but GNOME is really broken

I'm having some trouble here. If Gnome is really broken why don't I notice it?

I start apps, I use them, I close them, and all without screens full of errors etc etc...

It's not the visible stuff that I am refering to, it's more the architectual things that I like to refer to.

OK, different viewpoints, from a user-like point of view I don't give a damm about architecture, just ask the average windows user what he/she thinks of the windows architecture, they'll probably look at you like you need a long lie down. They want a system and apps to work, reliably and easily.

Me too. And so far, so good.

And a stupid question to finish.

As we speak, using GNOME from CVS.

If you think so little of Gnome why don't you use KDE or XFCE or whatever?

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 11:53 UTC

"> Ah, I see, that's why you quoted me in your post and accused
> me of ranting against close-source applications because I
> wanted so show everyone how l33t I am.

And I care because ?"

Because it shows you are lying and because you cared enough to post.

Anyway, as I already said, if you don't have anything worthwhile to say I'll consider this conversation over.

Btw., what became of your khtml based browser project? I really was interested in it, but unfortunately, as with all your projects, it seems to turn out to be all fuss and nothing delivered.

hehe
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:02 UTC

How about a KHTML-based browser for gnome? Would just require both desktops installed! ;)

Well, just saw gnome the first time shortly a few hours ago, for using it seemed fine, although kde looks fine, too. Just as mentioned above Apps are what is needed, as both desktops seemed to have evolved a lot.

A downside is just that these two are not interoperable, meaning running gnome apps under kde and vice versa, but this seems next to impossible (perhaps with some kind of wrapper?) anyway ...

That would be a point where everything could improve, or anyone (including companies) has to decide either kde or gnome, or have more development time to support both.

And what about the X installs without a desktop (only a window manager)? Although I personally would avoid that, unless in low resource situations ...

@Paul
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:07 UTC

> If Gnome is really broken why don't I notice it?

On a per application basis you might not see these things, but it also matters what application you use for which tasks and how throughly you use these kind of apps. Example, it could be that you use Nautilus to move some files from one dir to another and organize some files by name or do normal tasks but you probably never used Nautilus to copy some stuff from a FTP site to your homedir or something. You would have noticed that FTP module inside gnome-vfs is (or was depends whether they worked on it in the meanwhile) broken and not copying stuff reliable. Or you open Gnumeric, GPDF, Evolution, Yelp, Totem and use the applications as normally but you never paid attention how their GUI was generated with, some of these tools use Bonobo to draw their window, others use GTK and others again GNOME, which gives you a similar but still not identical user interface experience. Seeing that some applications have hardcoded GUI others use XML files and others use GLADE files to generate their GUI. Sure for a user this is all ok but for the aesthetical aspects this isn't different looks of toolbars, one with draghandle, the other without one etc. Some apps have that little arrow on the bottom right to drag windows others not and a shitload of details, different About boxes one from gnomeui and one from GTK (the new one).

How long do you think would it require to get all the applications moved towards one GUI system (say GTK+) and have the other stuff deprecated and died out completely.

Now you also need to ask yourself why there is a huge amount of work to get DBUS and other stuff like imense deprecation of functions inside the GNOME api. This is a sign of broken stuff on its own otherwise there wouldn't be a necessarity of having these things replaced (think about bonobo, corba etc.).

These are just some minor examples of the imense amount of examples that I could bring up.. still I believe I pulled up to much dirt again.

windows' ui SUCKS...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:22 UTC

>Sorry to say this but you can't surpass Windows with >GNOME as Desktop. Is this just Novell BS public PR >marketing or do their people actually know what they talk >about ? Ok Ximian belongs to them but neither does anyone >of them believe that GNOME goes anywhere close to Windows.

well, imho its very easy. the UI windows features can't even stand in the shadow of the likes of gnome, osX and KDE. each of these is better on almost every aspect, compared to winXP. Gnome is way easier to use, OSX looks better AND is easier to use, KDE looks better, is easier to use, AND has way more flexibility and configurability.

I don't say KDE is better than osX nor gnome, as KDE isn't as usable as gnome, nor does it look as good as OSX - but it IS the most powerfull of these, and the look & ease of use isn't that bad at all.

RE: @Paul
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:26 UTC

I admire your attention to detail.

But in the end, even though the Gnome project as a whole has to get everyone singing off the same hymn sheet with regard to how everyone does x, y and z, it's still a perfectly usable environment that permits me to do what I need to do.

I think Gnome does seem to suffer a bit too much from what I like to call YABAP (Yet Another Bloody Audio Player) Syndrome. Maybe we don't need 8 different music players, or 5 different text editors, but we do need other apps.

The problem of course is that developers tend to create apps to scratch personal itches. I just wish they'd stop scratching the audio player one!

@Paul
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:29 UTC

> But in the end, even though the Gnome project as a whole has
> to get everyone singing off the same hymn sheet with regard
> to how everyone does x, y and z.

Wasn't this what GNOME was all about ?

RE:windows' ui SUCKS...
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:31 UTC

I don't say KDE is better than osX nor gnome, as KDE isn't as usable as gnome, nor does it look as good as OSX - but it IS the most powerfull of these, and the look & ease of use isn't that bad at all.

No, but at least you're mind is open enough to see the good in all three in so much as people can choose what suits them best.

Which is what I thought it was all about anyway. Choice.

about gnome/kde
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:33 UTC

LEGEND said:
> A downside is just that these two are not interoperable, >meaning running gnome apps under kde and vice versa, but >this seems next to impossible (perhaps with some kind of >wrapper?) anyway ...

Ever used linux? damn, man where did you get this Idea? of course all Gnome apps work perfect in KDE, and visa-versa. only their look&feel are different, and the Gnome apps don't have access to quite a few advanced KDE technologies, that's why I prefer KDE applications, like
K3B (gnometoaster and nero suck),
KPDF (kicks gpdf and adobe's ass anytime),
amarok and juk (no music player beats those, not on windows nor gnome nor macOSX)
and konqueror (best webbrowser/networkbrowser/local browser I know).
And there are Kmldonkey, Kopete, Kontact - all these are at least equal or easilly surpass their gnome counterparts. and they are getting better alot faster than the gnome apps...

RE:@Paul
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:38 UTC

Wasn't this what GNOME was all about ?

That's the impression I was under, and I think standardisation of the platform and it's use is not happening.

But end-of-the-world stuff it ain't.

When Microsoft can sell people Windows, with all it's faults, vapourware etc and get away with it, well, we don't need to create perfection that's for sure.

@anonymous & @Ralph
by Andrewg on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:38 UTC

Do you have multiple personality disorder. You both have the Domain IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net

Maybe just a coincidence.

Oh, interesting
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:42 UTC

Yes, used linux often - more on the command line or KDE.
Good to know that most apps for those desktops work (that pure X apps would work under both would be no surprise at all), then I was wrong there - why the flames about KDE/Gnome then?

RE: about gnome/kde
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:43 UTC

If you want your gtk/gnome apps to integrate better with kde, just try the gtk-qt-engine. With it your gtk-apps will use your current kde style.

As to your application list:
K3B (gnometoaster and nero suck).
I agree, K3B is great, however I just wated to point out that finally we are seeing some nice gnome burning applications arrive, gnomebaker and graveman.

KPDF (kicks gpdf and adobe's ass anytime)
Again I agree, the new KPDF kicks ass. However, it doesn't allow you to fill out forms, like the new adobe reader does and with evince there is a new kickass pdf viewer for Gnome too.

@anonymous & @Ralph
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:46 UTC

No, dip.t-dialin.net is just what you get from using the biggest ISP in Germany. (It used to be a monopoly, so it really is big).

@Andrewg
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:46 UTC

>Do you have multiple personality disorder. You both have the Domain IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net

That mostly means only that they are from germany and have the same provider - the probably by far most popular (at least for now). One could be in Berlin, the other in Munich, some 100 kms of distance ...

Irony rules.
by Trey on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:46 UTC

Gnome apps don't have access to quite a few advanced KDE technologies

Perhaps you should read a little more into your prefered DE...

QtGTK is a framework that allows GTK applications to access Qt interfaces such as kio and kparts etc, as well as file dialogues and the like...

Couple that with the gtk-qt theme engine, and you can hardly say that GNOME/GTK apps do not fit in with KDE anymore... of course, its up to developers to actually implement QtGTK in their app... something that Novell and other corporations should just do! (afterall, Novell especially, claims to support both desktops... why double work to ensure this?)

@Legend
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:49 UTC

> Do you have multiple personality disorder. You both have the
> Domain IP: ---.dip.t-dialin.net

T-Online is a subcompany by Telekom AG and is defacto the biggest ISP as well as Telephone offering company existing in germany. So you can be sure that 95% of the germans who are online use T-Online.

http://www.t-online.de/
http://www.telekom.de/

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:52 UTC

They broke cdrecord with kernel 2.6 and than Torvalds pissed off the maintainer of cdrecord. How do you burn a cd image if you don't have KDE installed and K3B. Can you do this with GNOME, and how specifically do you burn an ISO image with GNOME?

Well
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:53 UTC

That is exactly my point, as not everything that KDE ships is a Qt feature. Some things are KDE specific (at least used to be when I was coding a Qt app back at the beginning of KDE).
A Qt or GTK app is just not too much more then a plain X app - no doubt it runs with both desktops. As you use specific features of the desktops, things get more interesting, and it wasn't as clear for me that this would work. There is a difference between a Qt app and a KDE app!
Same (I guess, I have to admit) should apply to GTK and Gnome.

@ralph
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:54 UTC

> If you want your gtk/gnome apps to integrate better with
> kde, just try the gtk-qt-engine. With it your gtk-apps will
> use your current kde style.

This is no integration but something we call 'clusterfuck'. Integration means if the application uses the framework as a whole, as recommended, as should. e.g. providing KIOSlaves, using the same DCop backend, using the same printer Interface, interact with the same Toolbar code, same Windowing code, accesses the same Datases or Desktop abstraction. If I make an application look similar then it's just masquerade but no real integration (Open Office org is one example).

@Anonymous
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:55 UTC

Why tell me what T-Online is? I didn't raise the multiple personalty stuff ;)

@Legend
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:56 UTC

.. my apologizes I saw the mistake too late.

I see
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:58 UTC

No problem.

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.cg.shawcable.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 12:59 UTC

"Can you do this with GNOME, and how specifically do you burn an ISO image with GNOME?"

Apart from the apps I already mentioned, why not simply right click on the image and select Burn to disk?

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:01 UTC

That doesn't work, because it doesn't burn as an image, anyway, there is an obtuse option, I found it.

@ralph
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:02 UTC

> Apart from the apps I already mentioned, why not simply
> right click on the image and select Burn to disk?

Lol with GNOME ? But there is a serious way of course and of course less trivial than handling with gconftool- 2 ;)

a) open gnome-terminal
b) mkisofs -R <patch with files> >/tmp/trk.iso
c) cdrecord dev=/dev/hdc -v -eject blank=all
d) cdrecord dev=/dev/hdc -v -ehect /tmp/trk.iso

You can of course skip c) in case you don't want to blank. Voila, burning a CD out of GNOME ;)

Commercial QT apps
by Iete on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:02 UTC

Skype's Linux version uses QT, and it is very much closed source and commercial.

There was also an article on Osnews a while back on commercial QT apps here : http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9493

Re: ...
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:03 UTC

"That doesn't work, because it doesn't burn as an image,"

Always worked for me, always burned an image.

Gnome CD Burning
by Paul on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:03 UTC

They broke cdrecord with kernel 2.6 and than Torvalds pissed off the maintainer of cdrecord. How do you burn a cd image if you don't have KDE installed and K3B. Can you do this with GNOME, and how specifically do you burn an ISO image with GNOME?

here http://gnomejournal.org/article/6/cddvd-creation-with-nautilus is an article all about CD/DVD burning in Gnome. Should tell you what you need.

Hmm
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:03 UTC

Someone can burn a cd without any GUI this way, so I guess this is not what anyone would call burning a cd out of gnome, but more a fallback to the command line.

Mouahaha
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:04 UTC

>he nearly total lack of closed-source commercial applications
>written with Qt.

Yeah, nobody is using Qt...

http://www.trolltech.com/company/customers.html

Again
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:06 UTC

All you have to do to burn an iso image is to right click on the image in nautilus and select burn to disk. That's all there is to it.

Re: Anonymous (IP: 195.221.59.---)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:09 UTC

Irony is pretty lost on you, is it not?

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:09 UTC

That link did not answer the question correctly. It only shows you how to burn regular data files.

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:10 UTC

I don't think that right clicking would work either. That only works for burning data.

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.cg.shawcable.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:12 UTC

Don't think, try it, it works, believe me.

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:14 UTC

So you burned an ISO image and as a result it became a bootable disk using that method?

Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.cg.shawcable.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:15 UTC

"So you burned an ISO image and as a result it became a bootable disk using that method?"

Yes, that's exactly what I'm trying to tell you all the time.

re: Re: Anonymous (IP: ---.cg.shawcable.net)
by Viro on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:19 UTC

Dammit, yes. That's what he's been trying to tell you the whole time. How hard would it be to just Right Click and see for yourself?

v ....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:19 UTC
....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:20 UTC

To late, I trashed the ISO file a few hours ago because it didn't burn properly. I have no way to test it.

Seriously off topic
by Mike on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:21 UTC

Really, this discussion feels almost like a chat now....
From novell, to Gnome vs. KDE to how to burn a cd in Gnome.

....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:22 UTC

I was thinking of buying a copy of WindowsXP and Nero, just so that I could burn a copy of Linux. The GNOME people got rid of the option to burn images, who would have thought to right click.

....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:23 UTC

I could have called RMS but it's $200.00 per hour.

Burning Data in GNOME
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:39 UTC

GnomeBaker is the equivalent of K3B in GNOME. Ignore the KDE trolls.

http://makeashorterlink.com/?A4AB129BA

End of ISO topic
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:41 UTC

From the aforementioned article:

http://www.gnomejournal.org/images/16.png

"A picture speaks a thousand words"

....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 13:52 UTC

Well when is Novell releasing PS3? What is the "cell" all about?

???
by Legend on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 14:02 UTC

PS3 as in Playstation 3? (I assume this, as you mention Cell along with it)
The PS3 is in the end a Sony Product.

Cell is the CPU for this Playstation. Bascially a simple Power-Core with 8 Vector CPUs on a single die, able to deliver a very theoretical maximum speed of 256 GFlops - yet even if it won't come close to this it will be a very, very powerful CPU in that area.

KDE user choice
by Marc collin on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 14:22 UTC

The people choose kde...

"The default window manager of SUSE 9.3 Professional? Schlaeger's response: "KDE is still the default desktop environment for SUSE LINUX Professional 9.3. The majority of our customers do prefer it, so we honor their needs and those of the OSS community. But we offer both desktops at the highest possible level to maximize a customer's choice. We also spend a great amount of development effort to make both KDE & Gnome interoperate smoothly."

http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11878.html

It's never going to end...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 14:42 UTC

All of these arguements over which linux desktop is better and which dev thing to use (Qt or GTK) and this and that differences about KDE and Gnome.. this is why Linux has no chance on the desktop, a community divided. Linux is a pain if you're not a whiz with the command line. Linux zealots tend to forget that when companies talk about the "Desktop" they're talking about your Mom and Joe Bob Average User. They don't want the command line. If they did, the "desktop" would never have evolved from pre-Mac/Windows days.
Installing applications on Linux is different on each major distro. Where's my application? I don't know, which distro are you running? Linux isn't one OS, it's a dozen similar OSes all trying to be number one. I'm fairly computer knowledgeable, but Linux is still difficult. People don't want difficult, they want easy to use and pretty, of which, Linux is neither.

Re: so what do you want?
by walterbyrd on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 14:46 UTC

>>Virtual desktops on rotating cubes, 'like mac os x', desktop GPL<<

I would like too see less effort put into so-called "eye candy" and have that effort redirected to functionallity.

In 1984, Apple revolutionized computers by building an excellent GUI, and thereby making computers easier to use. Since then, it seems that everybody wants to keep "improving" the GUI with more and more and more "features."

Problem is, after a while, you reach the point of diminishing returns. All these features actually become obtrusive. For example "clippy" and these see through menus where the text in the menus mixes with other text. And of course all of these feature are resource hogs.

IMO: forget the rotating cubes, and all the rest of that useless cr@p. Give me a clean simple interface that isn't distracting, and doesn't get in my way.

RE@Paul
by Uno Engborg on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 14:49 UTC


I'd really like to tell you more but this would require you to understand the technology behind GNOME a bit better, this means not just being able to install some stuff and style it with fancy icons. We need to dive deeper into the whole architecture of GNOME. In my opinion the NOVELL people are doing a huge mistake in following the path with GNOME here but at the end it's not my business at all - and after all it's just politics too.


Yes, its the VHS vs Betamax story all over again.

No doubt, KDE have the superiour technology over Gnome. But people will buy/use Gnome due to better looks, better usability, and better financial backing. I really feel sorry for KDE developers as their good work is not recognized to its full value. Just look how often the get bashed here at osnews.

I sometimes hold courses in Linux. A couple of years ago (before Gnome 2.0) all participants soon switched to KDE within the first day as KDE didn't crash on them, and they could actually get tings done using it. Now this doesn't happen anymore. If I see a trend, it would be in the opposite direction (People moving from KDE to Gnome)

If I look around and ask my friends what they are using. A couple of years ago the answer was almost always KDE, and the friend using it was typically had a computer related work, such as software developer, sys admin. Other people used windows.

Now, Linux have spread outside the circles of computer wizzards, and is used by ordinary office workers, but they almost always choose Gnome. Hyped distros like ubunto makes the situation even worse for KDE.

RE: It's never going to end...
by elmo on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 14:55 UTC

>>this is why Linux has no chance on the desktop, a community divided. Linux is a pain if you're not a whiz with the command line. Linux zealots tend to forget that when companies talk about the "Desktop" they're talking about your Mom and Joe Bob Average User <<

And this is exactly the reason why Windows is 'not ready for the desktop'. Fact is my mom and joe bob average user can't install windows nor configure it properly, even with all the wizards ... i know because ever so often i have to sort out some of the XP machines from my relatives ( and before you bash them as 'stupid' - they are in fact very intelligent people). Also get your facts right
1. configuring with the command line has nothing to do with KDE / Gnome rivalry

2. Most Linux distribution have GUI for most of the system configuration ... in the case of Novell it is Yast - which is very powerful and at least as complete as windows configuration tools ... oh and by the way linux installations are at least as easy and certainly quicker than Windows installations.

RE: It's never going to end...
by elmo on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:15 UTC

>> People don't want difficult, they want easy to use and pretty, of which, Linux is neither. <<

Gnome is by far easier to use than Windows ... and in terms of people want 'pretty' ... that just makes me laugh, Windows pretty??? Huaaaaa, Windows must be the ugliest GUI in existence !

RE: Re: so what do you want?
by kitty73 on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:19 UTC

@walterbyrd
Actually, not all that is usually defined eye-candy is devoid of any intrinsic usability value.
For example: animation when minimizing a window to the task-bar or dock is a visual aid to let the user know that the window did not disappear, and the application was not closed... it's down there in the bar/dock.
The rotating animation in OsX happens when you user-switch, I think, and again is a visual clue to the fact that the previous desktop was not closed, but you just 'moved' to work on another one.
For the very same reason I can understand the usefulness of scrolling/rotating when changing virtual desktop in X. My mom certainly is not familiar with 'virtual desktops' but if she saw the windows scrolling into and out of the viewport she would be much less worried than seeing them all disappear because she clicked on the pager.
That said, I understand being sick with eye-candy for the sake of it. Translucent menus are a good example, as there's little sense in having it less visible and harder to read as once a menu is open it's the only object on the screen I should interact with.

@elmo
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:22 UTC

> Windows must be the ugliest GUI in existence !

Actually Windows is a full featured Operating System serving hundret of different combinations of x86 hardware, with nice support and nice 3rd party stuff. The GUI ain't that bad after all.

@Anonymous
by elmo on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:32 UTC

No need to be nit picking ... ok Windows HAS the ugliest GUI.
The argument is moot anyway as beauty is in the eye of the beholder ... personally i find Gnome and KDE far more 'prettier' than the Windows GUI.

Actually Linux is a full featured Operating System serving hundreds of different combination of x86 harware as well as many different other architectures. hardware has never been a problem for me everything worked out of the box. and there is tons of free software that is more than adequate for productive use ... without the virus crap! the only area were linux is lacking currently is games ... but then i do not play games.

WinFS
by iges on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:35 UTC

AFAIK FS in WinFS does not stand for File System but Future Storage...

http://www.tomshardware.com/storage/20040129

Re: Dogacan Guney
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:47 UTC

Well, the point is that:There will never be commercial or closed-source applications for KDE.
Why do you think that Adobe acrobat 7 is GTK-based?
Why do you think that Nero is doing a linux port with GTK?


Because the market for closed source apps is non-existant at the moment, and it is not commercially viable for companies to buy development licenses? That shows you that the Linux desktop market is non-existant.

RE:@Pail
by Uno Engborg on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:52 UTC


I accept your first part of this quote but GNOME is really broken, the point is, you as user don't notice these things.


You are on to something here. First of all I agree with you that Gnome is broken and that KDE is a very nice architecture, and the especially the gnome-vfs stuff is totally groveling in the dust compared to kio-slaves. But if the user doesn't notices it then KDE doesn't stand a chance.

If the CEO of a company have to choose between Gnome or KDE he will go for Gnome due to better usability. He will probably see that KDE can be configured a lot, but he won't know how to do it himself, that makes him feel stupid, and he doesn't like that so he selects Gnome. Similar things happen at the marketing department on a company deciding if they are going to support Gnome or KDE.

@Uno Engborg
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:58 UTC

> He will probably see that KDE can be configured a lot, but he won't know how to do it himself.

Does such a person exist ? If he can distinguis between KDE, GNOME, Windows and MacOSX then you can be sure that after some fiddlign around he will be able to. You shouldn't underestimate the skills of people.

> that makes him feel stupid, and he doesn't like that so he selects Gnome.

He probably selects Windows or MacOSX because software that doesn't cost money is worth nothing.

> Similar things happen at the marketing department on a company deciding if they are going to support Gnome or KDE.

Of course the marketing department are such ignorant shitheads ignoring Windows (99% of the marketshare) and MacOSX. Yeah how realistic. I went to university and did some economics science there.

great news
by tobaccofarm on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 15:59 UTC

Good to hear the great news,i hope they will succeed.

big woop
by speel on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:05 UTC

wow big deal you can find files better on your computer ... give me a break invent somthing intresting like a interactive desktop or somthing cool

Re: @Paul
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:07 UTC

No doubt, KDE have the superiour technology over Gnome. But people will buy/use Gnome due to better looks, better usability, and better financial backing.

I think there's more than that. In fact, I think that a good framework is WAY more important then the mythical "usability" (which according to what I read in this thread means "good for dumb users", btw).

Superior technology -> Easier for developers to write great applications
Easier for developers -> More developers will be able to join that project
More developers -> More great applications
More great applications -> More users

RE: Re: @Paul
by pete on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:13 UTC

Developers will prefer GTK's LGPL license to Qt's GPL license, just look at Adobe: They use GTK for their new Acrobat Reader 7.0 under Linux!

Funny
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:17 UTC

All the people talking about how GNOME's technology/framework sucks are not even programmers. I challenge any of them to show me a project they are maintaining using GNOME's framework. So, how can they deduce a framework sucks by looking by starring at widgets? Oh, I forget, I'm reading osnews. The site where people act like they have clue.

RE: Re: @Paul
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:21 UTC

just look at Adobe: They use GTK for their new Acrobat Reader 7.0 under Linux!

Do you know that Adobe ALREADY HAS a Qt license?
http://www.trolltech.com/company/customers.html

From the rumors I've heard, Adobe has currently only one person working on the Linux stuff. So, probably that person was more familiar with Gtk.

Bollocks
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:24 UTC

I'm afraid this is just Nat Friedman mouthing off about some totally non-existant stuff - again. He just can't resist taking that sock out, and I'm afraid this constant hyping of stuff that just isn't ready of anything will kill of any chance Linux desktops have. Well, I think that chance has gone to be honest.

Anyone who has seen the current Gnome technology along with Cairo (or a lot of the X stuff) knows that it is nowhere near being ready to do anything like this reliably, let alone surpassing Windows. Beagle is nowhere near being as advanced as a whole WinFS system or the things that Apple are doing and planning for the future of things like Spotlight. This is just BS, and is just hurting open source software.

"During the demo, we will show six virtual 3-D desktops, the size of cubes, on the screen at the same time and how easy it is to switch between them."

Obviously no one has told him the difference between demos and things actually working, something that Ximian or whatever they're division is at Novell now have managed to do.

I don't know why people persist in seeing these things is a sign that Novell is Gnome-centric because:

a) The stuff in this article, along with the other 20,000 others before it, is tosh.
b) Nothing has been produced that is in widespread use that users and developers can actually use, or are actually using - i.e. not open source developers of fanboys.
c) Suse (you know, that place that actually makes money), SLES and Suse Linux 9.3 are still KDE centric.

It's the Emperor's New Clothes Syndrome. Hey Nat, where's your clothes?!

Re: Funny
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:25 UTC

I challenge any of them to show me a project they are maintaining using GNOME's framework.

I'm sure that was unintentional, but you've hit the nail on the head right there ;) .

Re: RE: Re: @Paul
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:28 UTC

From the rumors I've heard, Adobe has currently only one person working on the Linux stuff. So, probably that person was more familiar with Gtk.

Which basically means that developer had no financial back, no money for licenses for anything and had to use the first crap he/she could find.

Again - Linux desktops are not commercially viable as they stand.

@David
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:28 UTC

Except that WinFS and Spotlight are vaporware. The GNOME technologies are in use today, yes that includes Beagle and Cairo.

Let's dispell the WinFS myth
by foljs on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:29 UTC

Great. Another person that doesn't understand what WinFS is (and therefore why MS is having such a hard time getting it out). It isn't just file metadata search. Windows already has that. With MSN search it has it somewhat better. In Longhorn it'll have it too without WinFS.


Wrong.

WinFS is just a metadata search.

I don't know enough about Beagle to compare it to it, but I can compare it to Spotlight.

Where it differs from MSN search and Longhorn search is that MS has designed not in a simple metadata indexed search facility way, but in a grand scheme of relational access to the metadata and what have you.

Microsoft says:

The WinFS storage system technology will change the way that the user experiences an operating system. The core concept behind WinFS is that by storing data in a cohesive data store, not just a file system, systems and users can store rich metadata about a myriad of objects. In addition, these objects in WinFS will be able to be related to each other in fundamental ways. As a developer you can take advantage of this richness.


WinFS has a rich data model for storing data of all sorts of different structures. It does not require relational storage (even though it utilizes some relational database technology under the covers), or hierarchical storage (like LDAP data stores do), but allows developers to create their data structures and let WinFS store the data without ever requiring them to understand or make sense of the actual storage modality.


This is just a different way of storing indexes of data. There is nothing that WinFS is capable of that Spotlight+HFS is not, and more elegandly so (i.e with less redundant parts and APIs, thus with less potential bugs).

Since indexing in Spotlight is built in the filesystem level, syncrhonization of changes, notification and a unified store are all possible. A language to query items (similar to SQL) also exists.

Even NON file items can be stored in Spotlight, since nothing precludes this (on the contrary: applications will make use of Spotlight as a store for their own data type items, not necessarily real files).

Note, also, that since Spotlight is just an API for the applications using it, nothing prevents it from being implemented as a relational storage, if the need arises.

Futhermore, Spotlight exists (and will be sold to the public in about 20 days) while WinFS is just vapouware, and won't be sold until 2006 (if ever).

Linux has already innovated, it just needs to catch up
by pixelmonkey on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:32 UTC

Nat and Novell are on the right track. Linux already has the best ideas at the BASE levels--rich command line tools, kernel, general architecture. Windows has all the right stuff at the high levels (GUI, point-n-click, and new features for search and such in Longhorn) but is missing the proper essentials. Once Linux catches up at the "high levels," which it has been doing rapidly, then the whole OS will be better for it. Once users start using it and taking it seriously, you'll see "serious innovation." Trust me.

@Funny
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:34 UTC

> All the people talking about how GNOME's technology/framework sucks are not even programmers. I challenge any of them to show me a project they are maintaining using GNOME's framework.

Anytime!

Beagle Demos
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:34 UTC

Beagle demos for the naysayers.

http://nat.org/demos/

RE: Let's dispell the WinFS myth
by Weeman on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:36 UTC

Actually your own MS quotes say that it's an data/object storage, not just a plain metadata index.

RE@Uno Engborg
by Uno Engborg on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:52 UTC

@Uno Engborg


Does such a person exist ? If he can distinguis between KDE, GNOME, Windows and MacOSX then you can be sure that after some fiddlign around he will be able to. You shouldn't underestimate the skills of people.


The thing is that after a while of fiddling, to figure it out he looks at his watch, sees how long time it took and multiply by the number of employees and calculates the cost. This is why Gnome as well as KDE and to some extent even MacOS-X have a disadvantage. The CEO knows that if he goes the windows way he will have access to a lot of people allready having the skills needed to handle the OS. This is why Linux and MacOS-X need to be significantly better with respect to usability to have a chance. MacOS-X allready is but it is hampered by its hardware platform.



He probably selects Windows or MacOSX because software that doesn't cost money is worth nothing.


You are probably right in this. But he is probably not going to download Linux for free. He will buy it just like he does with windows (Or rather he buys support, but he will probably not notice the difference, as long as he is made pay trough the nose)


Of course the marketing department are such ignorant shitheads ignoring Windows (99% of the marketshare) and MacOSX. Yeah how realistic. I went to university and did some economics science there.


I was thinking of a scenario where you allready supported the windows and mac market and wanted to expand into Linux.
Such things exist just look at ther recently released Nero.

KDE 3.4
by Shaman on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:53 UTC

That's all you need. Done deal.

@folgs
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 16:58 UTC

very good, but i would like to add a bit more to it. winfs is two things, an api an a metadata rich filesystem made for that api. (ditto with spotlight) the google/msn desktop searchs are high level apis that basically emulate a db filesystem. they require more resources, and arnt anywhere near as powerful.

so spotlight will be by far the best implementation of the db filesystem to date, and will retail in a few days. beagle/msn/google are all things that kind of provide that functionality, just not as well. longhorn search will probably be a bit better then beagle(the current one at any rate), but not by much. as for winfs, we have been promised it by ms for years now, so i wouldnt hold my breath.

it would actually be feasable to get winfs/spotlight functionality today on linux with something like beagle and reiserfs+extensions. the only problem is that it would mean kernel mods, that would tie linux to reiser. i dont think the lkml guys will ever really go for that without a ton of pressure, so our best bet would be a module done by redhat or novell (or even better, fd.o) that will implement the nessicary functionality. however, dont expect that from the linux world at least until ms implements winfs and the linux guys get feature envy.

@mattb
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:03 UTC

I don't think you have used Beagle. I provide a link to a demo in a comment above. Beagle provides exactly the same functionality as Spotlight. And it is available today!

How?
by Raven on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:12 UTC

I wish they'd could tell just how they'll surpass windows! To be honest i'm no fan of Windows so i hope they'll surpass windows, but on the other side i'm no big fan of Linux either.

http://bitsofnews.com

@Uno
by Chris on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:13 UTC

I don't think you should say that CEO's "logical abilities" are a good source of reference. I'd remind you of the many failing companies in the US today because of bad CEO's, but I'm sure you read the news.
No one on here makes 300G's to play golf, so I wouldn't bring CEO's up ;) .

Don't argue with me, it's an intentional play on what people think CEO's do; and like all plays it's based on some level of truth; the argument is how much truth lies underneath it.

If its true
by MoronPeeCeeUSR on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:14 UTC


If its true then awesome. I'd love to see a real contender to Windows with a linux kernel.

If not then we'll still have longhorn so end users aren't going to lose one way or either.

@mattb
by t0rtois3 on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:20 UTC

Beagle is capable of using the inotify kernel patch to monitor changes made to the file system.

I fail to see what integration there is in winfs/spotlight that is not in beagle.

Microsoft has given no technical information on winfs. It is likely they are being purposely glib to hide the fact that they don't what it will eventually be.

Re: .
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:20 UTC

Except that WinFS and Spotlight are vaporware. The GNOME technologies are in use today, yes that includes Beagle and Cairo.

They're not in use - they're still in heavy development. It's the same as a product still being internal within a company, as we're talking about open source software here. I don't know what you're smoking, but Cairo is nowhere near being in use.

However, Spotlight does exist. Microsoft has serious problems integrating WinFS, and so we won't see it for a while. Beagle is nowhere near as extensive, and it is an application - it isn't a framework as Spotlight is and WinFS will eventually be.

Just because you've got code, doesn't mean it is actually usable.

@anonymous
by t0rtois3 on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:22 UTC

It does have an api.

Personal Itch
by foljs on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:25 UTC

The problem of course is that developers tend to create apps to scratch personal itches. I just wish they'd stop scratching the audio player one!

This opinion is wrong and originates from the utterly clueless essays of mr. Eric Raymond.

Open Source developers create apps because they want to. This "want" comes from three sources:

a) It scratches an itch that they have (i.e solves a problem for them).
b) They consider it fun or cool.
and, as of late, c:
c) They are paid to do so (e.g by Novell).

So, "scratching itches" is just ONE of several valid motives.

Clearly, the "let's create another audio player" mostly stems from the (b) category: "Yep, an audio player would be a cool/fun project to undertake".

Very few people have "itches" that are not scratched by current audio players.

(P.S We can add a (d) item in the list:

(d) They don't have a particular itch to scratch, but they want to inflict their ideas about itch scratching tecniques upon the world. For example, "An existing player plays perfectly well audio files, but I wan't to create a player that flashes red and yellow while playing or has that particular (useless) feature."

@Dogacan Guney
by Shawn on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:28 UTC

One little problem with your "lots of commercial applications use Qt" inference. Commercial KDE applications (unless they're GPL'd) will likely never exist. For a program to be truely integrated with KDE (being able to use all of the special KDE specific Qt widgets, etc.) seems to require linking against GPL code.

The point is, from a business perspective, GNOME is the more attractive platform. It has more corporate backing ultimately, and is seen more as a professional platform than a hacker's platform.

What?
by Andre Da Costa on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:30 UTC

They are going to build there own Aero?

Question for the group ...
by Darius on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:31 UTC

How many people think the Novell guys (or whoever) can convert Windows users llike me by adding a new search feature and some eye candy?

You guys know what I want out of Linux before I'll even consider switching - I won't even bother to repeat it. And so if all of you know, why is it that companies like Novell can't figure it out? Why do they continue to focus on all of the wrong areas? Linux (the OS) is perfectly usable as it is, so concentrate on what really matters, Novell.

@t0rtois3
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:32 UTC

having any disk i/o update the db at the same time is alot more performant then having a process watching for changes. beagle is high level search tool with low level hooks, spotlight is low level with a high level api. beagle may be able to do everything spotlight can (i refuse to talk about winfs like it is here, when ms has been promising it for so long and has just told us they wont be delivering it in the next version of windows), but it wont do it as well.

Another empty claim from Novell
by Evans on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:35 UTC

Surpass? Yeah right. Do the people at Novell think that we are idiots? I am not the biggest fan of Windows, but I can name off multiple reasons that describe how Linux just cannot compete for the mass consumer market. Lets look at the big one... Games. Linux still needs the support of these vendors which are going to stay with Windows. What about directory services? Nothing even comes close to MS's active directory, nothing. And applications. You actually think that companies are going use Star Office or Open Office in the enterprise? Think again. Don't get me wrong, I want to see Linux move to the top, but it a LONG ways out. So far, I have seen nothing from Novell but Vaporware. Let's get real here folks.

@Anonymous
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:36 UTC

I'm smoking stones, but you are high on rocks. Beagle is available and in use today. Heck, I have it installed. Spotlight exists on some developer's box in lala land. WinFS, well, is WinFS, hype and promises.

Today, I can use Beagle. Today, I cannot use Spotlight or WinFS. And Beagle is a framework not an application. Beagle's application would be Best. Cairo is used extensively by the Wamiea project.

You guys are pathetic! You all speak authoritatively on subjects you are ignorant of. Neither of you have used or installed Beagle. Yet you shameless clods have the balls to compare it products that aren't even officially availabe.

http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/

@mattb
by t0rtois3 on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:44 UTC

this site: http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/spotlight.html

suggest that spotlight works in the same way as beagle. With a "spotlight server" instead of the beagle daemon.

I believe osx already has the metadata server that they will be using. Whats being added are api to interact with the server as well as plugins that extract metadata from files.

There is no file system level interaction.

I am not talking about Beagle
by Evans on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:45 UTC

I am not talking about Beagle at all or WinFS for that matter, I am talking about Linux competing with Microsoft. Anyone that thinks Novell is just going release a product out of thin air and blow away Windows is as you would say "high on rocks". Microsoft has a line of extablished partners that like to see a profit from thier products. You think they are going to drop everything and concentrate on a product like this? Now that is a pipe dream.

RE: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by Ronald on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:45 UTC

> Today, I can use Beagle. Today, I cannot use Spotlight
> or WinFS.

Anyone with access to the MacOS X "Tiger" BETA can use and Spotlight. I tried it myself and it's great.

PWNED. ;)

If anyone will do it, Apple will
by Evans on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:48 UTC

Apple has a good financial backing and are really starting to get a chunk of the market. If anyone will be able to compete with Microsoft, it will be Apple not Novell. Heck, look at Netware and draw your own conclusions. It is a pile a steaming dung.

@Ronald
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:52 UTC

And how many commoners have access to MacOS X "Tiger" BETA? Show me a link where I can freely download spotlight to test, then I'll shut up. I promise.

"
by hk on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:54 UTC

"a technology for rendering the desktop using the GPU". Cairo (Glitz) + Gnome ? Also how will it truly be functional without a stable universally supported accelerated X server ?

Novell surpasses Windows on Desktop...
by vincent on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:54 UTC

This is the same distribution, that heretofore can't even allow an end-user change file permissions from the GUI?

@Evans
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:56 UTC

If Apple could compete with Microsoft, why haven't they done so in the last decade? I believe Linux' market share today is higher that Apple's and trends are showing it is continuing to grow. Contrast that with Apple's market share that has falling drastically since the past decade.

@shawn
by Richard Dale on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:58 UTC

One little problem with your "lots of commercial applications use Qt" inference. Commercial KDE applications (unless they're GPL'd) will likely never exist. For a program to be truely integrated with KDE (being able to use all of the special KDE specific Qt widgets, etc.) seems to require linking against GPL code.

No, the KDE libraries are LGPL'd - if you have a Qt commercial license you can write commercial KDE apps.

The point is, from a business perspective, GNOME is the more attractive platform. It has more corporate backing ultimately, and is seen more as a professional platform than a hacker's platform.

Yawn..

RE:hk
by Dogacan Guney on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 17:59 UTC

not cairo+glitz...Well, also that but actually he is talking about Xgl..

Hope Linux will never get pass Windows
by Frustrated user on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:03 UTC

I am a fan and user of GNU/Linux. But I hope the number of GNU/Linux user will never be more than MS Windows. GNU/Linux was never intended to attract / steal Windows user.

Most users nowadays have no idea how to install an OS. 99% MS Windows users use computers that are pre-installed with Windows.These users expects the installation of OS is like buying a new toaster, and plug it in the power outlet.

GNU/Linux has not reach that level of user friendliness and I don't think it's supposed/should to. And the documentation needed to guide and hold the hands of these users aren't here yet.

I guess I'm just tired of answering the same basic question over and over again by new GNU/Linux user. Example of a well known but seems now a forgoten fact: if you're dual-booting Win-Linux, install Windows first.

Therefore, please keep MS Windows users where they are.

@n-name:
by AdamW on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:08 UTC

"everything but beagle will reach fedora and ubuntu and mandrake"

MDK already has beagle in contrib. Set up a contrib source for MDK 2005 and you'll get beagle 0.0.7 (or 0.0.8 if it comes out before we hit deep freeze). Works fine...well, about as well as beagle works anywhere right now, which is not brilliantly.

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:14 UTC

if you have a Qt commercial license you can write commercial KDE

But if you don't?

@Richard Dale
by Shawn on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:21 UTC

Yawn..

Yawn all you want, but it's obvious from SUN, RedHat, and even Novell's financial backing that KDE is not the choice for business. Nor will it be the choice for the Company I work for. If Qt is so great, why didn't evolution get rewritten for it? Why does Novell continue to release applications written for Gtk? Why is most of their financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop and not the KDE desktop? The list goes on...

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:24 UTC

Mr. Shawn, please don't ask those question to KDE trolls, cause no matter how obvious the answers are, they will always find another fantasy answer for they conveniece w/o aceptting the real one.

RE: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by Ronald on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:29 UTC

> And how many commoners have access to MacOS X "Tiger"
> BETA? Show me a link where I can freely download
> spotlight to test, then I'll shut up. I promise.

You can't download it because it's not free software. You can either have it delivered to your door through the TigerKit (ADC membership) or wait till next month, I think, to purchase it for Apple PCs.

Beagle is in early alpha (version 0.0.7). Spotlight technology is rock solid and almost ready to ship. Which users will see the technology in proper use first? ;)

Re: @Richard Dale
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:29 UTC

KDE is not the choice for business

Apparently the Novell customers think it differently...
http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/feature/11878.html
"KDE is still the default desktop environment for SUSE LINUX Professional 9.3. The majority of our customers do prefer it."

If Qt is so great, why didn't evolution get rewritten for it?

If Novell is going GNOME, why didn't Yast get rewritten in Gtk?
Maybe because is plain dumb rewriting 200.000+ lines of C code in C++? Beside that, KDE has Kontact, no need for Evolution.

Why does Novell continue to release applications written for Gtk?

Really? Kiosk is a Novell tool. It is Qt/KDE.

Why is most of their financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop and not the KDE desktop?

Why despite all these financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop, KDE still has more users, more developers, and a decent framework?

@iup.edu
by AdamW on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:36 UTC

Have you tried *running* beagle yourself? It's slow as molasses, eats huge amounts of memory, is stuffed full of leaks and falls over in a light breeze. This is not surprising, as it's 0.0.7. What surprises me is that they're confident they're going to have it cleaned up and releasable for SuSE 9.3. I can sure see it being ready for NLD 10, but SuSE 9.3 is a bit of a bold move...

evans:
by AdamW on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:38 UTC

"You actually think that companies are going use Star Office or Open Office in the enterprise? Think again."

No, I think that companies (and large government departments) already do.

Re: Shawn (IP: ---.everestkc.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:39 UTC

"Commercial KDE applications (unless they're GPL'd) will likely never exist. For a program to be truely integrated with KDE (being able to use all of the special KDE specific Qt widgets, etc.) seems to require linking against GPL code."

Wrong. They can use Qt with the commercial license and link to all KDE stuff without a problem, as it is LGPL. Please at least try to inform yourself before making comments. Thanks in advance.

@t0rtois3
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:40 UTC

The technologies that power Spotlight are:

* A database consisting of a high-performance meta-data store and content index that is fully integrated into the file system.
* Programmatic APIs that are part of the CoreServices and Cocoa frameworks that let you query the meta-data store and content index.
* A set of importer plug-ins that are used to populate the meta-data store and content index with information about the files on the file system.
* A plug-in API allowing you to provide meta-data and content to be indexed for your application's custom file formats.


thats a copy/paste from the link you sent me. read it all, then read the description of beagle and youll see the difference.

RE: @iup.edu
by Marc collin on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:41 UTC

" By AdamW (IP: 204.209.209.---) - Posted on 2005-03-22 18:36:18

Have you tried *running* beagle yourself? It's slow as molasses, eats huge amounts of memory, is stuffed full of leaks and falls over in a light breeze. "

it's normal it's mono....
mono application speed are worst than java

@ Anonymous (IP: ---.fastres.net)
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:45 UTC

Why despite all these financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop, KDE still has more users, more developers, and a decent framework?

if kde has more developers, more users, and a decent framework, where are all the kde killer apps? why is kde not being adopted by big business? where are all the cool (or kool to you kde folks) new technologies and apps developed for kde? and why the hell would you waste your time responding to a troll?

"Argue with idiots, and you become an idiot"
-Paul Graham

@Ronald
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:53 UTC

Ronald wrote: "Beagle is in early alpha (version 0.0.7)."


Are you having stability issues with it?



Ronald wrote: "Spotlight technology is rock solid and almost ready to ship."


Is that why it crashed during Steve Job's presentation at the Macworld San Francisco 2005 Expo Keynote?

If you knew a few things about software development, you'd realize early products of any software are usually buggy. Beagle isn't any more alpha than Spotlight is. Well, at least until Spotlight is put to test in the real world.

Finally, appending version numbers behind products has long been used by commercial software developers to confuse and decieve consumers into thinking their product is stable. Spotlight version 100 does not necessarily qualify it as a stable product.

@mattb
by A nun, he moos on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:58 UTC

if kde has more developers, more users, and a decent framework, where are all the kde killer apps?

K3b, Amarok, Konqueror (undoubtedly the KDE killer app). Kontact is pretty good. Kiosk is amazing for its intended uses.

Qt apps: MainActor is an excellent commercial app.

why is kde not being adopted by big business?

Why isn't GNOME adopted by big business either?

where are all the cool (or kool to you kde folks) new technologies and apps developed for kde?

kio_slaves. 'nuff said.

@.
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 18:59 UTC

dude, you can say that about winfs, spotlight is shipping in a month. that means that tiger cds are going to be pressed any day now, and its definately code complete.

beagle isnt equivilent to spotlight featurewise, it isnt code complete, or even in testing/debugging phase yet. it has a hell of alot of potential, but dont try and make it something its not.

i would be willing to bet dollars to doughnuts that beagle will be better then "longhorn search" (i.e. non winFS), but wont hold a candle to spotlight.

@AdamW
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:00 UTC

If I hadn't run Beagle, I wouldn't be yapping about it. I'll give you this, it's a memory hug. But I don't know about falling over and all the other stuff you mentioned. Which version of Mono do you have installed?

GNOME vs KDE: Man I'm bored
by youknowmewell on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:00 UTC

The GNOME vs KDE argument has gotten quite boring and redundant lately. GNOME and KDE both have their strengths and weaknesses, and they both have large corporate backing. Why do we have to fight over something like this? I honestly wouldn't be suprised to find out that it's a bunch of teenagers fighting over "My desktop environment's corporate backing can beat your desktop environment's corporate backing."

Get a grip on reality. We need both, they both fill a need, they both compliment each other. It's counter productive for people to argue over which one is better. We need a friendly, open-minded, and mature community to stay together and make things better for everybody, not just for the "smart people" that choose the software that we like and endorse.

Personally, I prefer GNOME. I like the direction it is taking and I like the fact that the developers for GNOME are willing to take risks (spatial nautilus, Mono). But when I introduce people to my Linux desktop and I explain what a desktop environment is, I tell them about both KDE and GNOME. I think we should all do the same.

...
by Surya on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:02 UTC

Wow...I cant believe I read the entire thread. Its so funny actually to take a step back and read this stuff...grown up people in a very civilized name calling and your dad is better than my dad situation. It is all about choices. And only time will tell if Novell and M$ can deliver what they claim. Mac OS X has delivered so far on every account what they have claimed to deliver. Guess which OS user I am...

I am a Windows XP user. ITs all about choices. I chose to use XP because I hate command line interfaces and the way the that Linux has no good games on it after an intense coding session. I love Mac OS X because it is IMHO way better than what Linux distros have been able to achieve, a lot of Windows like ease of using very very powerful features, but their hardware is a turn off. It is all about choices. You guys just bash other users from being different. Chill out.

Re: Yawn
by Richard Dale on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:03 UTC

If Qt is so great, why didn't evolution get rewritten for it?

If it ain't broke don't fix it.

The important thing is to make sure the various toolkits interoperate well, and coordinate via toolkit independent organisations such as freedesktop.org. End users really don't care about the differences between Gnome, KDE, Firefox, OpenOffice etc apis.

@mattb
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:05 UTC

Dude, for the last time, there is hardly any difference between Spotlight and Beagle, functionality wise. Pray tell me how Spotlight is automagically better than Beagle?

I obviously missed something, so thank you for bringing me up to date.
One further question though, could you provide me some links as to exactly when Nove took over the development of Adobe, Macromedia, 4D etc. etc. and made the decision not to develop these applications for their own platfom?


How about the fact that Novell has done sweet-bugger-all to pull developers to Linux as a platform to write commercial applications for. Novell has neither approached the big companies and licensed the source code to port (and then share the profits) or atleast sign a contract where by they pay for the porting of applications to their platform.

Sorry, people can handle not having Office or .Net Studio - they accept that Microsoft will never in a million years port their applications to Linux - and hence, people are willing to replace it with an OSS application, but most, like me, aren't willing to give up applications they require for their work; I'm certainly not going to give up functionality simply to get some politically motivated feel good factor.

RE: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by Ronald on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:10 UTC

> Are you having stability issues with it?

Nope. I never used it. It's not included in Distros (I tried UBUNTU last, guess why?). However I have tried the MacOS X "Tiger" BETA. And it's great and very stable. I came away very impressed.

> Is that why it crashed during Steve Job's presentation
> at the Macworld San Francisco 2005 Expo Keynote?

Even in BETA some small bugs can still occur. But that was over 2 months ago. They have engineers working on Spotlight all the time.

Btw, Spotlight looked great integrated into the OS and apps. When do you think Beagle will get such integration into Nautilus, Evolution and other GNOME apps, which year 2006 or 2007?

> If you knew a few things about software development,
> you'd realize early products of any software are usually > buggy. Beagle isn't any more alpha than Spotlight is.
> Well, at least until Spotlight is put to test in the
> real world.

Spotlight is very near shipping quality code. And Beagle is...

> Finally, appending version numbers behind products has
> long been used by commercial software developers to
> confuse and decieve consumers into thinking their
> product is stable. Spotlight version 100 does not
> necessarily qualify it as a stable product.

When it's going to be shipping next month, you can bet your 129$ US that it's going to be stable as a rock. In which year do you think Beagle will be stable and fully functional? Will they be able to ship a stable version of Beable earlier than WinFS?

@a nun, he moos
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:14 UTC

actually, i was trying to point out that if the superiority of an app is so apparent, then you lower yourself to the level of idiot by arguing with trolls. i was also trying to point out that financial resources and quality output have nothing to do with one another.

kio slaves are cool, but so is HAL/DBUS/G-V-M that gnome users have had since 2.6. beagle is simply stunning, if storage ever gets off the ground it will be the first real contender to spotlight/winfs in linux. im not saying one is better then the other, im saying that theres (currently) no dm in linux that is (objectively) better then anything else, and arguing about it is dumb.

now, lets move on to the qt "killer apps".

K3B is a pretty frontend to standard stuff, its definately the prettiest frontend available atm, but i wouldnt call it a killer app.

amarok could also be called "yet another itunes clone". also, rhythmbox came first (even though amarok is nicer) i would say itunes is the "killer app", since jukeboxing apps on every platform are reduced to copying its ui.

konq is windows explorer done right. there are lots of people who dont like explorer though, enough that the category of file manager is still alive and well.

as for kontact, everyone seems to have their own favorite calandering app, once again not "killer".

once again, im pointing out that these opinions may be verging on "zealotry", not that gnome pwnz kde, which would be the same as calling myself a moron. i do know that i can install gtk and not qt, and get by just fine, which means that there isnt much in linux that uses qt and is indespensable, or so much better then the competition that everyone else basically gives up. (that being said, i could *probably* do the same with gtk and not miss it too much, although we are beginning to get some gtk# apps that dont really have an equivilent)

RE: ralph
by Marc collin on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:15 UTC

"By kaiwai (IP: ---.jetstream.xtra.co.nz) - Posted on 2005-03-22 19:08:17

Sorry, people can handle not having Office or .Net Studio - they accept that Microsoft will never in a million years port their applications to Linux - and hence, people are willing to replace it with an OSS application, but most, like me, aren't willing to give up applications they require for their work;"

people can handle to use something, govermnent prove it, population prove it, the # of download about openoffice, eclipse prove it

....
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:23 UTC

Microsoft is willing to disenfranchise all its developers by adopting a Google like operating system, where people operate terminals and Microsoft controls all of the software. They are willing to throw .net in the trash, if there is a new scheme out there to get peoples money. I'd rather be guaranteed that the technology is going to be there tomorrow, that's one in the bag for open source.

...
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:27 UTC

Microsoft is a snake, and you expect me to trust them???
ROFL.

@Ronald
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:29 UTC

Let me get this. You have never used Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is better. You have never used Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is more stable. You have never used Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is more functional. And because you will be paying 129$ US for Tiger, Spotlight is stable.

Man, Steve is good.

@marc:
by AdamW on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:29 UTC

"it's normal it's mono....
mono application speed are worst than java"

nope, muine runs fine. You can write perfectly good apps in mono, in my non-developer experience. The problem with beagle is that it is still very early code. I dunno how they're planning to have it in shape as a core system component by next month.

anonymous (resnet.edu)
by AdamW on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:30 UTC

mono 1.0.6. As for falling over and getting confused, the *release notes* themselves tell you this is not difficult to cause.

@ronald:
by AdamW on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:32 UTC

"When do you think Beagle will get such integration into Nautilus, Evolution and other GNOME apps, which year 2006 or 2007?"

Not entirely sure what you mean by integration, but it already searches your Evo email and your gaim IM logs. If you mean sticking search boxes all over the damn interface, that would be a *bad* idea. One is good.

@.
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:35 UTC

what is the difference between spotlight and the google desktop? or msn desktop, longhorn search, and winfs?

functionality wise they are all similar. its all how the indexing is done. with winfs/spotlight, its part of the filesystem. whenever i/o happens, the insert/update/delete happens on the db too.

on the other hand, the high level ones listen for filesystem changes, then index based on that. it is an additional layer tacked on to the api, and will be less performant, and far more error prone. beagle does some cool stuff, but it is a gnome technology, and gnome does not have control over the various levels of linux.

what would be better is if beagle were a fd.o project and done in c or c++, so the kde guys wouldnt have to reinvent the wheel. what would be even better is if xorg, linux, and reiserfs got behind this fd.o project, and started specing some standards for "desktop linux" that would be able to sacrifice some compatibility for features that will soon be standard in every desktop os.

@AdamW
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:40 UTC

I use mono-1.1.4, and beagle has yet to fall over or get confused. Prior to 1.1.4, it used to consume a lot of RAM, but I have only 256MB of RAM and I have two other mono apps(muine and tomboy) running 24/7. With 1.1.4 the memory issues have almost disappeared.

@.
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 19:40 UTC

actually, if you read this thread most people find beagle to be slow as molasses, suck memory and cpu cycles, buggy, or just plain not work. for a 0.7 this is acceptable, because the only one comparing a 0.7 release with a product that has just finished its final testing is you.

@mattb
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:01 UTC

The way Beagle indexes is not different from the way Spotlight does so. Linux uses inotify/dnotify, at the kernel level, to propagate changes made to the filesystems in real time. In fact, this has very little to do with Beagle. Where Beagle plays a critical role is meta-data searching, sorting and presentating information. Filesystem updates are done are the kernel level and not at the desktop level as you seem to allude.

Once again, from a technical and functional perspective, there is hardly any difference between Spotlight and Beagle. The only difference will be in the way they harness available technologies and the manner they implement them.

@
by Bart on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:04 UTC

beagle is a pain ass tool
it doesn't have a standard metainfo format and it does
require a lot of managed wrappers to function properly.
kde 3.4 instead of beagle,have kio libs that share across every applications a comprensive metadata information.
for example you can search contents trough konqueror, kfind, kate, kwrite ecc using the same technology.

@mattb
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:06 UTC

The only person who finds beagle slow is AdamW. Everyone else has either never used Beagle, or are just recounting tales from the unknown. The only problem I have witnessed with beagle is the memory issues I mentioned above, and I gave explanations for why that may be so. I need to mention that I have also had the opportunity to use spotlight, about a month ago, and it wasn't exactly stable either. So, I talk with authority as someone who have used both products. Not someone who has been starring at screenshots on websites and feature lists.

@Bart
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:08 UTC

KDE does not have anything like Beagle. Next!

RE: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by Ronald on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:12 UTC

> Let me get this. You have never used Beagle, but you
> still think Spotlight is better. You have never used
> Beagle, but you still think Spotlight is more stable.
> You have never used Beagle, but you still think
> Spotlight is more functional.

You have told us you needed a link to test Spotlight but you still think Beagle is better? lol

You compare something that's is almost ready for shipping with something that's still in alpha.

> And because you will be paying 129$ US for Tiger,
> Spotlight is stable.

Exposé and Rendez-vous were pretty rock solid when they both shipped in "Panther." Why should I expect any less now for Spotlight?

And you do realize that the Beagle web pages reveal that the project is still in an early stage of development (alpha).

> Man, Steve is good.

PWNED again.

Beagle
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:24 UTC

Ronald (IP: ---.sympatico.ca):
"PWNED again."

Impressive...


As to beagle, all I can say is that it works surprisingly well for the early stage it is still in. Though it could of course be faster, it is still fast enough to really be usable. Finally, about the memory issue, this seems to be pretty much solved with the latest release, at least it is now using a whole lot less memory than it used to. All in all a great app.

How does it compare to spotlight? I don't have a clue, as I never used spotlight, but than again, I don't really care, if spotlight is a great piece of software and it probably is, fine, but that doesn't make beagle any less useful to me, does it?

@Ronald
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:26 UTC

Actually, I have actually tested Spotlight, about a month ago. It wasn't exactly stable. It is only on osnews that a product that hasn't even shipped yet is considered stable. At least, Beagle has been freely available for download for months. Tell me, where can I freely download Spotlight to see the stability changes that has happened to it since I last tested it? There is a difference between almost shipping and actually shipping. Spotlight is almost shipping. Beagle has actually shipped. Go download it and report bugs if you see any.

And I have had printer driver issues, wireless network driver issues as well as Samba issues with both Jaguar and Panther. I'm not even going to mention the hundreds of bugs in applications like Safari and mail. I don't live in a delusional world where I expect the first releases of software to be stable. That's like me saying Longhorn is stable because some developers already use it. Finally, getting pawned won't stop me from exposing ignorance.

@mattb
by A nun, he moos on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:36 UTC

kio slaves are cool, but so is HAL/DBUS/G-V-M that gnome users have had since 2.6.

True. KDE now uses it as well.

beagle is simply stunning, if storage ever gets off the ground it will be the first real contender to spotlight/winfs in linux.

I agree, these are some pretty exciting development.

im not saying one is better then the other, im saying that theres (currently) no dm in linux that is (objectively) better then anything else, and arguing about it is dumb.

Again, I agree. I have nothing against GNOME, and in fact I used to prefer it over KDE. Now I marginally prefer KDE, but I still use some GTK2+ apps. I don't understand what all the fuss is about having two toolkits. The important thing is that they work well together, and (to a lesser degree) that they are themeable so they look similar.

My only grip with GNOME is the new open/save dialog. I still don't find it as intuitive as the KDE equivalent, and of course the fact that you can use kio_slaves in that dialog is a big plus (i.e. saving directly to a SSH-enabled computer with the fish:// kio_slave is pretty cool).

@.
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 20:40 UTC

do beagle indexers run before the file can be accessed? how much relevency ranking work has gone into it? how relational is the beagle datamodel? how complete is the api for other apps to use? can beagle be guarenteed on a system not running gnome? does nautilus support live folders? does any other app in gnome leverage beagle? will they ever?

spotlight is kinda like beagle, except far more mature, complete, and fully integrated into the os. beagle on the other hand is a search tool, not a subsystem. it sits on top of gnome, not under x. it uses mono, which is a deal breaker for many gnome hackers, which will be a real problem from an integration perspective. kde wont use it, they will go their own way with their own incompatible model. it is beta technology on an extremely immature platform.

to be totally honest, i wasnt aware of the kernel hooks, or DBUS ipc they implemented. last time i checked, it looked like a promising version of medusa. so in a way you are right, it will eventually work in a real similar way to spotlight. not in the next month though.

@mattb
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:06 UTC

do beagle indexers run before the file can be accessed?


Beagle indexes are updated in real time.


how much relevency ranking work has gone into it?


I don't know. I am not a beagle hacker. It does a good job ranking.


how relational is the beagle datamodel?


I don't know I am not a beagle hacker.


how complete is the api for other apps to use?


Mail clients, web browsers, file managers, instant messengers already use Beagle. APIs are never complete. They are continually evolving.


can beagle be guarenteed on a system not running gnome?


can spotlight be guaranteed on a system not running Tiger?


does nautilus support live folders?


You need expantiate on that.


does any other app in gnome leverage beagle?


Yes


will they ever?


Yes


Beagle is not an application, it's a framework. As far as I know, Spotlight is a search tool, is beta and immature too. Products don't get mature before releases, before they ship, overnight, or immediately after they ship. Sometimes, it takes years for a product to get mature. I wouldn't call Spotlight any more mature than Beagle is.

RE: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by Ronald on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:11 UTC

> Actually, I have actually tested Spotlight, about a
> month ago. It wasn't exactly stable.

I did also. IIRC it was very stable. Maybe your version had was from an older build.

> It is only on osnews that a product that hasn't even
> shipped yet is considered stable.

Whining about OSNews. Right...

> At least, Beagle has been freely available for download
> for months. Tell me, where can I freely download
> Spotlight to see the stability changes that has happened
> to it since I last tested it?

Here: http://developer.apple.com/macosx/tiger/tigerkit.html

They'll hook you up real good.

> There is a difference between almost shipping and
> actually shipping. Spotlight is almost shipping.
> Beagle has actually shipped. Go download it and report
> bugs if you see any.

Beagle is currently in alpha state for developers to hack on. It's not ready for everyday usage. Therefore it hasn't shipped.

Once I get UBUNTU to install properly on my P4, I will.

> And I have had printer driver issues, wireless network
> driver issues as well as Samba issues with both Jaguar
> and Panther. I'm not even going to mention the hundreds
> of bugs in applications like Safari and mail. I don't
> live in a delusional world where I expect the first
> releases of software to be stable. That's like me saying
> Longhorn is stable because some developers already use
> it.

I have never had trouble with MacOS X. I never met someone who had. I got kernel panics but they were always related to Flash. Those were minor bugs that were encountered rarely.

You don't expect your first release of software to be stable? Jaguar was pretty stable when I got it. So was Panther. So was Windows XP and Visual Studio 2K2.

> Finally, getting pawned won't stop me from exposing
> ignorance.

I don't mind exposing people who need to test something to compare and 15 mins later they claim to have tested that something a month ago. Pathetic. Really pathetic.

@Ronald
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:20 UTC

I see. I need to shell out 500 bucks to test Spotlight. Nice try, pal. Steve Jobs hasn't got in my head yet. If developers were only supposed to use Beagle, it wouldn't be available publicly for download. You see, developers use something called CVS for developer-only stuff.

@.
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:33 UTC

Beagle indexes are updated in real time.

real time is a relative term. theoretically, can something else modify a file before it is indexed is what i was asking. it may sound like nitpicking, but it is a fairly big deal if you want use the datastore as the primary form of navigation.

I don't know. I am not a beagle hacker. It does a good job ranking.

i do know alot of work has gone into spotlights ranking and grouping. i do know that similar efforts were being done with dashboard, but it seems to have taken a bit of a back seat. i guess such things can alwas be optimized later.


how relational is the beagle datamodel?

I don't know I am not a beagle hacker.


it makes a big difference to the flexibility of the queries.


how complete is the api for other apps to use?

Mail clients, web browsers, file managers, instant messengers already use Beagle. APIs are never complete. They are continually evolving.


i mean, lets say im a gnome developer. how hard is it to add a new piece of metadata for my app? how hard is it to search the beagle datastore? on spotlight its a few lines of code, as i mentioned i seem to be out of the loop on beagle.


can beagle be guarenteed on a system not running gnome?


can spotlight be guaranteed on a system not running Tiger?

there arnt 3402984023984 different dms on a mac, there is one. even gtk developers wont want to rely on something that will only be available to a portion of their user base, and there is no reason for a qt developer to assume beagle will even be installed. that means adoption gets limited to core gnome apps.

does nautilus support live folders?


You need expantiate on that.

live folders are a concept that be came up with, and mac stole. basically, instead of a folder being a directory on the disc, it is a query.

does any other app in gnome leverage beagle?


Yes


will they ever?


Yes

remember, i mean they leverage beagle, not beagle leverages them.

[i]
Beagle is not an application, it's a framework. As far as I know, Spotlight is a search tool, is beta and immature too. Products don't get mature before releases, before they ship, overnight, or immediately after they ship. Sometimes, it takes years for a product to get mature. I wouldn't call Spotlight any more mature than Beagle is.</>

beagle is a framework that has the cards stacked against it ever becomming as fully adopted on linux as spotlight will on the mac. if spotlight is still in beta (which i doubt), that will change in a day or two. it is immature, but it is at least ready to ship. spotlight isnt that box in the finder, its database is accessible via api. you are right by at times, it will take technology years to mature. something that has been considered done, and is in testing for half a year, and is ready to ship in the next month is typically more mature then something that is described as an alpha-quality, developers only release, is marked 0.7, and isnt even done let alone ready to enter the testing phase.

Re: .
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:39 UTC

Beagle is available and in use today.

I'm afraid not.

Heck, I have it installed.

And?

Today, I can use Beagle. Today, I cannot use Spotlight or WinFS.

Because they're not open source projects. That doesn't make Beagle ready or used.

And Beagle is a framework not an application.

Beagle is not a framework.

You guys are pathetic! You all speak authoritatively on subjects you are ignorant of.

Blah, blah, blah.

Neither of you have used or installed Beagle. Yet you shameless clods have the balls to compare it products that aren't even officially availabe.

Yes I have. It isn't ready, nor is it an application framework.

@Shawn
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:46 UTC

Yawn all you want, but it's obvious from SUN, RedHat, and even Novell's financial backing that KDE is not the choice for business.

a) Red Hat have had Gnome for years and it hasn't made KDE go away.
b) Novell doesn't make any money out of Gnome in any way, nor is it used on their core products of SLES.
c) Sun recommends that you use Java/Swing to develop for the JDS, they never mention using Gnome GTK+ APIs nor do they support you using them.

Nor will it be the choice for the Company I work for.

No - it will probably whatever Microsoft uses. And that means .Net, not Mono.

If Qt is so great, why didn't evolution get rewritten for it?

Because they don't know good development tools when they see them? Evolution is a pile of bug-ridden crap these days.

Why does Novell continue to release applications written for Gtk?

They're applications done in the spare time of some Novell employees, but that doesn't make them Novell applications.

Why is most of their financial efforts going into improving the GNOME desktop and not the KDE desktop?

It's not. Novell/Suse continues to fund KDE development that are a part of successful products that make money such as Suse Linux Professional and SLES.

The list goes on...

Yawn.

I just wonder when the penny is going to drop with some brainless wonders that this corporate backing is not, has not and never will materialise.

Re: .
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:49 UTC

KDE does not have anything like Beagle. Next!

Nor does Gnome. Beagle is a Mono application!

SQLite and Beagle
by SpookyET on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 21:57 UTC

Is SQLite the proper database for Beagle? My main problem with it is that it stores everything as string. I think that Berkeley DB is a better database for a massive index. SVN devs agree. Don't get me wrong; I'm not calling SQLite a joke. It's a good database, and it has its uses, but I think Berkeley DB would be a better choice. I have never used SQLite for anything massive, nor have I seed it used anywhere else for anything massive.

@david
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:16 UTC

a) Red Hat have had Gnome for years and it hasn't made KDE go away.

when did gnome getting adopted by business mean kde going away?

b) Novell doesn't make any money out of Gnome in any way, nor is it used on their core products of SLES.

gnome adds value to NLD, novell sells NLD, hence novell makes money off of gnome.

c) Sun recommends that you use Java/Swing to develop for the JDS, they never mention using Gnome GTK+ APIs nor do they support you using them.


you obviously arent a java developer. awt is awful, swing is god awful, and swt rocks. swt was made by the ibm supported eclipse project, which means sun wont adopt it into java, even though theres no real reason not to, other then refusing to admit that a 100% pure java gui toolkit was a dumb idea. sun will never, ever, tell anyone they should use anything but swing, even though swing is rarely, if ever the best choice.

Nor will it be the choice for the Company I work for.

No - it will probably whatever Microsoft uses. And that means .Net, not Mono.


well, turns out you arnt a .net developer either. .net is the microsoft implementation of the cli standard, mono is miguels implementation. i seriously doubt your company will jump on the .net bandwagon for awhile though, if software houses used what ms did, there would be massive rewrites every year as ms throws their old way of doing things out the window.

Because they don't know good development tools when they see them? Evolution is a pile of bug-ridden crap these days.


evolution is also the product that allows for linux to talk to exchange servers, one of the big selling points for the business.

They're applications done in the spare time of some Novell employees, but that doesn't make them Novell applications.

ROFL!
"The most popular groupware client for Linux, Novell® Evolution™ integrates e-mail, calendaring, tasks and contact management in one easy-to-use application. As part of Novell Linux Desktop, Novell Evolution integrates smoothly with other applications and communications tools and connects to corporate communications architectures including Novell GroupWise® and Microsoft Exchange."
(http://www.novell.com/products/desktop/features/evolution.html)

i think you better let them know thats not a novell app, one of their employees seem to be shamelessly branding his pet project as a novell product. i mean jeez, its not like mono which is OBVIOUSLY not a novell product

"Mono is a platform for running and developing modern applications, based on the ECMA/ISO Standards. Mono can run existing programs targeting the .NET or Java frameworks.
Mono is an open source effort led by Novell and is the foundation for many new applications"
(http://www.mono-project.com/Main_Page)

ah nuts, someones been messing with the wiki. definately have to let them know novell isnt really connected to the work done by miguel on his free time. should i keep going?

unlike the borderline moronic userbase of kde and gnome, novell doesnt seem to be treating an api like a religion, having highly skilled gnome and kde hackers on the payroll.

It's not. Novell/Suse continues to fund KDE development that are a part of successful products that make money such as Suse Linux Professional and SLES.


well yeah, it all makes sense now. you see, kde and gnome are like two different countries on a battlefield. third parties pledge support to one or the other, based on the crazed ravings of the various priests that will explain why theirs is the one true path to enlightenment.

either that, OR novell is supporting both, to be able to better address the desires of their clients, and give themselves as broad a market as possible. nah... yours sounds much more feasable.


I just wonder when the penny is going to drop with some brainless wonders that this corporate backing is not, has not and never will materialise.


yeah, so we ignore sun (the largest contributer to the foundation), novell, redhat... oh hell, we arnt paying attention to reality anyways, lets just ignore that gnome even exists! it seems to fill you with some sort of rage, maybe you were attacked by a gnome as a child, or perhaps big feet simply scare you. regardless, being in touch with reality seems to be low on your list of priorities, while trashing something you know nothing about is high up there.

-----------------------
man, i dont know if its just me, but the gnome/kde trollfest seems more and more childish every day.

GTK+ is using Cairo today
by pepe on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:16 UTC

if i'm not mistaken, the version of GTK+ in CVS HEAD which is due to be released in August already uses cairo to do most of it's drawing.

@david (again)
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:21 UTC

right again!
http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/
OBVIOUSLY has NOTHING to do with gnome.

@mattb
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:37 UTC

when did gnome getting adopted by business mean kde going away?

Errrr, you've implied it. Nice try ;) .

gnome adds value to NLD, novell sells NLD, hence novell makes money off of gnome.

So it doesn't make money off Gnome then?

you obviously arent a java developer.

Wrong.

awt is awful, swing is god awful, and swt rocks. swt was made by the ibm supported eclipse project, which means sun wont adopt it into java, even though theres no real reason not to, other then refusing to admit that a 100% pure java gui toolkit was a dumb idea.

Meaningless in the context I've given. Was there a point here?

sun will never, ever, tell anyone they should use anything but swing, even though swing is rarely, if ever the best choice.

Sun are a very good Gnome citizen then, aren't they?

well, turns out you arnt a .net developer either.

Wrong again.

.net is the microsoft implementation of the cli standard

No it isn't. .Net is a heck of a lot more then a CLI implementation.

i seriously doubt your company will jump on the .net bandwagon for awhile though, if software houses used what ms did, there would be massive rewrites every year as ms throws their old way of doing things out the window.

Nope, Microsoft has always put in strong backwards compatibility. .Net is the first time they've really, really broken away.

i think you better let them know thats not a novell app, one of their employees seem to be shamelessly branding his pet project as a novell product.

That's blurb from a web site. It doesn't translate into usage by ordinary Novell employees, and they're actually having trouble getting people to adopt the NLD internally - hence the adoption of Open Office on Windows and the porting of Evolution to Windows.

i mean jeez, its not like mono which is OBVIOUSLY not a novell product

No it isn't a Novell product. It's a Novell sponsored project.

third parties pledge support to one or the other, based on the crazed ravings of the various priests that will explain why theirs is the one true path to enlightenment.

Wow.

either that, OR novell is supporting both, to be able to better address the desires of their clients, and give themselves as broad a market as possible. nah... yours sounds much more feasable.

You could have just said that to start off with ;) . I don't know what you think mine is.

yeah, so we ignore sun (the largest contributer to the foundation), novell, redhat... oh hell, we arnt paying attention to reality anyways, lets just ignore that gnome even exists!

Well yer - it hasn't made any difference over the past five years ;) .

it seems to fill you with some sort of rage, maybe you were attacked by a gnome as a child, or perhaps big feet simply scare you. regardless, being in touch with reality seems to be low on your list of priorities, while trashing something you know nothing about is high up there.

I hate to point out the obvious, but this all started with a posting of yours some way back ;) .

man, i dont know if its just me, but the gnome/kde trollfest seems more and more childish every day.

What, like your posts? Nice try ;) .

RE:you can't surpass Windows with GNOME
by Anonymous on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:39 UTC

"2.What does it lack to surpass Windows?" - a $200 fee, the chrashes, the 'are you really really sure' button ... etc

;-)

@mattb
by David on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:40 UTC

right again!
http://www.gnome.org/projects/beagle/
OBVIOUSLY has NOTHING to do with gnome.


Since it's a Mono application and Gnome hasn't actually adopted Mono, no it isn't.

You did know Gnome hadn't adopted Mono, right?

Re: David (IP: ---.freedom2surf.net)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:44 UTC

Jesus, don't you ever get tired of your senseless trolling?

Beagle is hosted on the gnome server, it is developed by many gnome core devs, it integrates with gnome/gtk apps, it uses mono bindings to gtk and gnome-libraries, so what exactly is your point besides trolling?

@mattb
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:47 UTC

Please note I am not a beagle developer so the information I provide may be completely inaccurate. The information I provide is just my own understand of beagle from the scraps and pieces I could get my hands on as well as from what I could make of the source code.

Beagles indexing technology is based on Lucene, which is a port of a powerful full-featured text search engine called Jarkata. Whenever a change occurs in the filesystem, Linux provides several mechanism to propagate the changes up the stack (i.e to userland tools). dnotify and, very recently, inotify are watchers that monitor these changes.

Hence, a beagle deamon only needs to listen to notification from either inotify/dnotify to activate its indexer. A change occurs, inotify/dnotify notifies the beagle deamon the beagle activates its indexer. This is just a naive oversimplication of the complexity of the process. But it is intentional. I do not know the algorithms the beagle developers use for things such as ranking, data relativity and data relevance. But if you are interested in such things, the source code is open and free to download.

On another note, I do not believe Beagle was designed to run outside the GNOME platform. And I see no reason why it should. After all, I do not expect Safari, Mail, or Spotlight to run in XP, OS 9, GNOME or KDE.

At the application level, I believe in delibrately designing applications for specific environments, as opposed to multitude of environments. I do not understand why GNOME developers have to worry about KDE users and vice-versa. GNOME and KDE are different desktop platforms just as Windows XP and OS X are different. The fact that they run the same kernel is irrelevant.

You also need to be specific about your categorization of the Linux desktop. You seem to comparing OS X to Linux, GNOME, KDE all at the same time. Do you want to focus of GNOME, or do you want to focus on KDE. GNOME is entirely different from KDE. They use entirely different technologies and will continue to do so for a long while. Again, I have no problem with that.

Will beagle become a core part of GNOME? If it proves useful and it benefits developers, why not? If it doesn't, then better technologies will be developed. It's not like Linux or GNOME would not survive without meta-data searching. Unlike Apple and Microsoft, free software does not shove technologies down the throats of developers. Free software hackers will only use a piece of technology if the benefits of doing so outweigh the cost.

As for the politics, I really don't give a damn about them. I prefer Java to Mono, not because it is better or more powerful or faster or stable or it's not MS, or patents, or whatever. I just like Java better. And I intend to start a host of Java projects designed for GNOME soon. I just do not have time for politics. And I am not assuring you or anyone that the beagle will be a success, will be widely adopted or will be a core part of GNOME anytime soon. But for those who need meta-data searching, it is there, it does a great job and most of the core applications already support it.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if other free software hackers are working on their own meta-data technologies. Why should GNOME rely of Beagle alone? There should be more meta-data search technologies. In fact, I find GNOME-Storage a lot more useful and innovative than Spotlight, Beagle or WinFS. If you know much about free software and Linux in general, you'd realize it evolves in ways no one understands. Don't be surprised if Beagle is made obsolete by a better technology tomorrow.

How easy is it to write plugins for Beagle? I haven't written one, so I wouldn't know. But I understand it is relatively easy.

Re: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by ralph on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:52 UTC

"On another note, I do not believe Beagle was designed to run outside the GNOME platform."

Why not? Of course it is aimed and integrated into gnome now, but I see no reason why it couldn't be integrated in KDE. All that would be needed were some plugins for kde apps and a kde searchtool using beagle.

@ralph
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 22:57 UTC

Absolutely! The source code is open. If the KDE hackers are interested, I do not think it will be impossible to adapt Beagle to KDE. I just don't think the Beagle hackers have KDE high on their priority list at the moment.

@David
by . on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:00 UTC

A GNOME application does not necessarily need to be adopted by GNOME. There many applications designed for GNOME that are not a core part of GNOME and will never be.

Gnome wins even with an inferior framework
by Lumbergh on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:19 UTC

No matter how much KDE fanboys hate it, the QT license is an issue that isn't going to go away until trolltech gets bought out.

KDE has the superior framework and the superior speed, but many moons from now when linux on the desktop is actually relevant, KDE will be a very great niche desktop.


Anyway, I'm emerging KDE 3.4 right now because Gnome on Hoary just keeps on getting SLOOOWWWWEEER with each update on even a fast machine (p4 3.2, a gig).

P.S.

Gotta love this quote
"We are getting ahead of [Microsoft] Windows for the first time," he said. "The release of SuSE Linux 9.2 brought a lot of innovative mobility features, while 9.3 has a variety of Mono-based applications."

Hehe, so he admits that Suse/Novell was behind windows on the desktop until now. Amusing

@david
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:29 UTC

when did gnome getting adopted by business mean kde going away?

Errrr, you've implied it. Nice try ;) .


i have never implied it. i seriously doubt we will ever hit a point where there is only one ANYTHING in linux.

gnome adds value to NLD, novell sells NLD, hence novell makes money off of gnome.

So it doesn't make money off Gnome then?


novell has many core gnome devs on the payroll, and as much as they hate to come out and say it, NLD is definately gnome-centric. so yes, they do make money off of gnome.

you obviously arent a java developer.

Wrong.


ok, you are a java developer who has no knowledge about suns ongoing soap opera with ibm, and their refusal to go a more sane route with their toolkit.

awt is awful, swing is god awful, and swt rocks. swt was made by the ibm supported eclipse project, which means sun wont adopt it into java, even though theres no real reason not to, other then refusing to admit that a 100% pure java gui toolkit was a dumb idea.

Meaningless in the context I've given. Was there a point here?


your context was fairly meaningless in and of itself. you said that because sun suggested writing guis in swt over gtk (which is what they use all over in jds), that somehow that made gtk bad. i was pointing out that its far from that simple, and sun has been defending their horrible choice in gui technology very publicly for years now. there is no real reason to use swing even in java.

sun will never, ever, tell anyone they should use anything but swing, even though swing is rarely, if ever the best choice.

Sun are a very good Gnome citizen then, aren't they?


i refer you to my various sarcastic remarks about how companies arent part of the same zealotous horde that make up a nice percentage of the gnome/kde userbase.

well, turns out you arnt a .net developer either.

Wrong again.

.net is the microsoft implementation of the cli standard

No it isn't. .Net is a heck of a lot more then a CLI implementation.


im so sorry. cli implementation + additional classes.

Nope, Microsoft has always put in strong backwards compatibility. .Net is the first time they've really, really broken away.


really? i guess your still using COM, win16, etc then.

That's blurb from a web site. It doesn't translate into usage by ordinary Novell employees, and they're actually having trouble getting people to adopt the NLD internally - hence the adoption of Open Office on Windows and the porting of Evolution to Windows.


well, ive read that adoption is going according to plan. Novell has never ported oo.o (that sun product) to windows. and a novell product doesnt translate into usage by novell employees either, it translates into a product developed and sold by novell, which is OBVIOUS from the product description of NLD.

i mean jeez, its not like mono which is OBVIOUSLY not a novell product

No it isn't a Novell product. It's a Novell sponsored project.


oh, ok. so i guess "They're applications done in the spare time of some Novell employees" was deliberately deceptive?

third parties pledge support to one or the other, based on the crazed ravings of the various priests that will explain why theirs is the one true path to enlightenment.

Wow.


i was trying to be funny.

either that, OR novell is supporting both, to be able to better address the desires of their clients, and give themselves as broad a market as possible. nah... yours sounds much more feasable.

You could have just said that to start off with ;) . I don't know what you think mine is.


you implied over and over that support of kde meant that they werent officially supporting gnome.

yeah, so we ignore sun (the largest contributer to the foundation), novell, redhat... oh hell, we arnt paying attention to reality anyways, lets just ignore that gnome even exists!

Well yer - it hasn't made any difference over the past five years ;) .


sun has basically made gnome into a product that is attractive to the enterprise. this is both through financial and code contributions, and in the performing of usability tests.

it seems to fill you with some sort of rage, maybe you were attacked by a gnome as a child, or perhaps big feet simply scare you. regardless, being in touch with reality seems to be low on your list of priorities, while trashing something you know nothing about is high up there.

I hate to point out the obvious, but this all started with a posting of yours some way back ;) .


i posted another response to a kde troll awhile back, but it was too sarcastic and a whole bunch of people misunderstood. in that post, i described why a handle of good applications dont qualify as "killer apps", and that just because he could build up a strawman to tear down doesnt mean the same cant be done from a different perspective. your post seems to have claimed (or at least implied)

1) gnome does not receive corporate funding
2) novell doesnt (officially) support gnome in specific, and gtk apps in general
3) novells support of suse makes #2 self-evident
4) gtk sucks and noone uses it

if you feel you have honestly been misunderstood, i will go back and paste parts of your comment that back up those various points. they are all wrong, and the only way someone could think that is if they were pretty clueless. since that is a pretty standard condition in the gnome/kde world (at least by users who post here), i had a bit of fun writing a sarcastic response to that effect.

man, i dont know if its just me, but the gnome/kde trollfest seems more and more childish every day.

What, like your posts? Nice try ;) .


please point out what i said that could be considered a troll. i think the only one that could be construed that way is the whole Sun/swing thing, but any developer who has worked with swing can at least see where i am comming from on that.

@lumbergh
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:42 UTC

for christs sake, cant you let one article on this site go without trolling? i dont think theres been one ive read in the last month that hasnt been contaminated by your efforts.

No matter how much KDE fanboys hate it, the QT license is an issue that isn't going to go away until trolltech gets bought out.


what possible reason could you have to believe that? oh right, your a moronic troll.

KDE has the superior framework and the superior speed, but many moons from now when linux on the desktop is actually relevant, KDE will be a very great niche desktop.


what possible reason could you have to believe that? oh right, your a moronic troll.

Anyway, I'm emerging KDE 3.4 right now because Gnome on Hoary just keeps on getting SLOOOWWWWEEER with each update on even a fast machine (p4 3.2, a gig).


contrary to everyone saying that its faster. oh right, your a moronic troll.

P.S.

Gotta love this quote
"We are getting ahead of [Microsoft] Windows for the first time," he said. "The release of SuSE Linux 9.2 brought a lot of innovative mobility features, while 9.3 has a variety of Mono-based applications."

Hehe, so he admits that Suse/Novell was behind windows on the desktop until now. Amusing


very amusing. especially since up until now, that is exactly what they have been saying. oh right, your a moronic troll.


do you see the pattern? i have seen you show up in thread after thread doing your best to divert the conversation in any way possible. each and every comment i have seen you write has been both ill informed, and wildly inflamatory. if eugenia ever wanted to tame the comments section around here, the easiest way to do so would be simply to ban your ip.

yes i know this is gonna get modded down, and i dont care. flame me if you like, i dont care. people who regularily read this site know you by now, and those who dont will hopefully read this, and choose not to respond to your trolling. this is the last time i am going to respond to one of your childish comments.

RE:Re: . (IP: 144.80.184.---)
by Uno Engborg on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:54 UTC


"On another note, I do not believe Beagle was designed to run outside the GNOME platform."

Why not? Of course it is aimed and integrated into gnome now, but I see no reason why it couldn't be integrated in KDE. All that would be needed were some plugins for kde apps and a kde searchtool using beagle.



Beagle would be a great konqueror/kio-slave protocol. Just imagine doing "beagle:/My search criteria" in a file dialog and all files matching it would show up.

@mattb
by Lumbergh on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:58 UTC

I'm not surprised you threw a tantrum because my comments probably piss off both KDE and Gnome fanboys. Let's see what I said.

The QT license is an issue:
Linux on the desktop now is pretty much irrelevant, but in the future it might not be. Look at it this way, if glibc was straight GPL then there would have to be a replacement. Check

KDE has the superior framework and the superior speed:

I don't think there's ever been much controversy about that. Gnome has always had integration issues. Just look at what the KDE developers have been able to achieve with their framework. Check

Gnome on Hoary has been getting slower:

Well documented over at the ubuntu forums. I'm not talking about warty which was always pretty speedy, but after big X/Gnome updates the whole desktop has gotten sluggish until kinks have been worked out.

@uno
by mattb on Tue 22nd Mar 2005 23:59 UTC

which is why i think it would be a fantastic candidate for a fd.o project. unfortunately though, this isnt the case. hopefully the kde guys will at least work with the same datastore, but history has shown us that the two projects tend to start from scratch rather then build on each others work.

@Lumbergh
by . on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 00:07 UTC

Actually the GTK/GNOME is slow thingy is a troll. And frankly, I don't see anything superior about the KDE technologies. I also don't see any killer KDE applications from these superior technologies. KDE doesn't do anything amazingly superior to GNOME, nor does it run faster on my box.

@lumbergh
by mattb on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 00:16 UTC

*sigh* ok, fine.

#1 kde liscence

completely and totally ot in every way possible. has nothing to do with the article, or discussion. has been known to start huge flamewars. both windows and linux are dual liscenced, you can go gpl for oss, or non gpl for commercial liscences. how in the hell is that a problem? the only problem i can see, is that if you are a company you have to pay a (totally reasonable) liscence fee, which is per developer. explain to me how this is a "problem"

#2 kde speeds & framework

once again, completely off topic in every way. once again, a topic that is sure to start a flame war. saying that the kde framework is superior is a subjective statement, especially considering you are talking about two different frameworks in two different languages.

#3 gnome speeds

once again, completely off topic in every wawy. once again, a topic that is sure to start a flame war. gtk has gotten faster with every release. you did say it was on hoary, but implied it was a gnome, not hoary specific issue.

#4 windows/linux superiority bs

whats really funny about this one is it both the most ill informed, and the most on topic. novell actually broke with tradition by saying that one of their products (nld) isnt superior to windows and will inevitably take it over. that little blurb is more in tune with a typical novell press release. your agreeing with novells ceo isnt really amusing, its more ironic.

each part of your post was designed to provoke emotional responses by the fairly zealotous osnews readership. you contributed nothing to the conversation, offered no insight, and did what you could to keep others from doing the same. if this was the first time, i would assume you were ill informed. as i have NEVER seen you do anything but troll, i responded the way i did, and stand by it. you responded in a rational manner, which means that you diserve a rational response. however, after this i will be ignoring you (the best way to deal with a troll), and hope that others do the same. of course, if you begin posting informed, rational, intelligent, or comments that are useful in any way, shape, or form, that will change. but as it stands, i have seen no evidence to support you being anything but a troll of mediocre talents (trolling osnews is like shooting fish in a barrel)

@mattb
by Lumbergh on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 00:28 UTC

I guess you're one of the fish I shot in the barrel then ;)

In any case, the issues I pointed out are still valid.

And to the guy that stated that Gtk+ wasn't slow (relatively speaking), I just have to laugh

@.
by mattb on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 01:49 UTC

Beagles indexing technology is based on Lucene, which is a port of a powerful full-featured text search engine called Jarkata. Whenever a change occurs in the filesystem, Linux provides several mechanism to propagate the changes up the stack (i.e to userland tools). dnotify and, very recently, inotify are watchers that monitor these changes.

well, a small correction. jakarta is a java project linked to the apache group. tomcat is the most well known app to come out of it, its the free j2ee appserver. lucerne is one of the technologies they have come up with, lucerne.net is a .net/mono port of it.

Hence, a beagle deamon only needs to listen to notification from either inotify/dnotify to activate its indexer. A change occurs, inotify/dnotify notifies the beagle deamon the beagle activates its indexer. This is just a naive oversimplication of the complexity of the process. But it is intentional. I do not know the algorithms the beagle developers use for things such as ranking, data relativity and data relevance. But if you are interested in such things, the source code is open and free to download.

yeah, theres actually not too much documentation on how everything works. i thought i had a better idea then i actually do, and theres some things i wanna get a better idea of. first of all, if you cant guarentee that the file will not be accessed again before the indexers fire, then theres a chance of data corruption, which in something like this is extremely bad. i know beagle was spun off from the backend to dashboard, and i remember reading quite a bit about the ranking work that went into that. hopefully that stuff was carried over, or modularized at least. dont really need to read the source code, just looking for something more along the lines of tech specs ;-)

On another note, I do not believe Beagle was designed to run outside the GNOME platform. And I see no reason why it should. After all, I do not expect Safari, Mail, or Spotlight to run in XP, OS 9, GNOME or KDE.

there is two problems. one is that app integration with non gnome apps is going to be trying. since the majority of apps out there werent written for gnome, that means that we wont really be able to count of project maintainers to write their own metadata plugins. also, if kde goes their own way, with their own db with an incompatible datamodel, it will be copy/paste all over again. such things should only be done once, and should be a standard for others to plug into.

At the application level, I believe in delibrately designing applications for specific environments, as opposed to multitude of environments. I do not understand why GNOME developers have to worry about KDE users and vice-versa. GNOME and KDE are different desktop platforms just as Windows XP and OS X are different. The fact that they run the same kernel is irrelevant.


in a perfect world, i agree with you. but how would you class wxwindows apps? or fltk apps? or gtk apps that dont use gnome libs, like the gimp? then there are alwas places where one environment will have something more mature then the other, and half the user base will have foreign apps in their environment (im thinking k3b).

You also need to be specific about your categorization of the Linux desktop. You seem to comparing OS X to Linux, GNOME, KDE all at the same time. Do you want to focus of GNOME, or do you want to focus on KDE. GNOME is entirely different from KDE. They use entirely different technologies and will continue to do so for a long while. Again, I have no problem with that.


neither do i. but again, lets look at the reality of the situation. what happens in kde has a big impact on gnome, and vice versa, when compared to the impact on say, windows.
osx application interoperability is impossible, but theres no real reason that gnome and kde cant play nice together, and there are things where having a common backend would make alot of sense. that is the rationale behind fd.o, and i happen to agree with it.

Will beagle become a core part of GNOME? If it proves useful and it benefits developers, why not? If it doesn't, then better technologies will be developed. It's not like Linux or GNOME would not survive without meta-data searching. Unlike Apple and Microsoft, free software does not shove technologies down the throats of developers. Free software hackers will only use a piece of technology if the benefits of doing so outweigh the cost.


i agree. i would argue that gnome will not survive, or at least flourish, without something more modern then c. mono is pretty garbage compared to java, but we've seen some of the most innovative gnome apps in years start to spring up left right and center ever since it was released. beagle, f-spot, tomboy, muine, etc. if not mono, then something, but we need it and we need it now.

As for the politics, I really don't give a damn about them. I prefer Java to Mono, not because it is better or more powerful or faster or stable or it's not MS, or patents, or whatever. I just like Java better. And I intend to start a host of Java projects designed for GNOME soon. I just do not have time for politics. And I am not assuring you or anyone that the beagle will be a success, will be widely adopted or will be a core part of GNOME anytime soon. But for those who need meta-data searching, it is there, it does a great job and most of the core applications already support it.


when you do, send me an email ;-). ever since the liscence change by sun, i have been really wanting to jump into java-gnome. with intellij giving free liscences to opensource projects, its starting to look real sexy to write oss java.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if other free software hackers are working on their own meta-data technologies. Why should GNOME rely of Beagle alone? There should be more meta-data search technologies. In fact, I find GNOME-Storage a lot more useful and innovative than Spotlight, Beagle or WinFS. If you know much about free software and Linux in general, you'd realize it evolves in ways no one understands. Don't be surprised if Beagle is made obsolete by a better technology tomorrow.


yeah, storage is very, very interesting stuff. but seth announced it, then didnt do much for a few years, so everyone kinda assumed it was dead. beagle is alot closer to being done then storage, but when it comes out we will have a true competitor to winfs.

How easy is it to write plugins for Beagle? I haven't written one, so I wouldn't know. But I understand it is relatively easy.


yeah, i poked around on the offficial site and found the code for it. not quite as neat as for spotlight, but far from difficult.

Novell SUSE Linux on an exokernel
by EyeAm on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 02:42 UTC

I wrote Novell the other day to suggest they rewrite the Linux kernel as an exokernel, moving far away from the monolithic and microkernel structure, and go after the increase of flexibility and speed that such a move would result in. At minimum, 4x faster than Windows and Mac OS; but in general 8x to 16x times faster. Faster loads, a more moduler system in the LibOS, more portable. Scaleable. They could still use Xen on top.

Maybe they're looking into it ;-) If so, it would certainly "surpass Windows". It would also mean other Linux distros could benefit (those who took up the new model, that is).

Time will tell. Love Novell SuSe. Have good feelings about it. Such a charmer.

--EyeAm
http://s87767106.onlinehome.us

please dont hype Novell
by The MESMERIC on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 03:22 UTC

you turn more people away from Linux
by creating such high expectations.

sure Linux is nice and all.
but there are still many grounds to cover for it to be a prime reason for people not wanting to return to Windows.

IBM, Novell are not being at all strategical about this.
But utterly dumb and clueless.

Ask any Linux/Windows person what needs to be done:

1. Fucking invest in the Linux GAMING industry you stupid morons!

2. Pressurize and make sure Windows hardware/gadgets are easily compatible in Linux:
Palm PDAs don't sync;
ADSL USB modem requires a computer novice to recompile the kernel?? wtf

I thought IBM had influence??

3. Cater for the "DESKTOP" user,
these are the average Joe Bloggs who drives a lorry on a Sunday.
Don't put a LDAP/Exchange Connector on his mail client expecting him to go "Wow",
or worse don't send him "Linux Middleware Demo CDs" -
he has enough beer mats.

The strategy should be from bottom-up not from top-down.

And lastly "Learn from Thy Enemies!"
Damn it

Just research and see what MS did.
From bottom (MS-DOS, games, education),
upwards (Servers and now SuperComputers even)

From Root To Rule...
by EyeAm on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 05:43 UTC

Quoting The MESMERIC (edited):
"1. invest in the Linux GAMING industry"

Excellent.


"2. Pressurize and make sure Windows hardware/gadgets are easily compatible in Linux: Palm PDAs don't sync; ADSL USB modem requires a computer novice to recompile the kernel?? wtf"

I would suggest pooling such efforts with WINE at first (for Windows-compatible related stuff), and let there be a unified effort behind such things, to more rapidly develop solutions.

The interesting thing about the exokernel is no longer would Linux have to recompile for additions of hardware or components to take effect. If you wanted to add that new mouse, you'd install its drivers and it would run immediately. No recompile.


"3. Cater for the "DESKTOP" user,
these are the average Joe Bloggs who drives a lorry on a Sunday. Don't put a LDAP/Exchange Connector on his mail client expecting him to go "Wow", or worse don't send him "Linux Middleware Demo CDs" - he has enough beer mats."

Yes. The 64-Bit Desktop ;-)


"The strategy should be from bottom-up not from top-down."

Rewrite the kernel, Novell ;-) Alpha example already downloadable from MIT. (psst, it can run other OSes as 'applications').


Re: Ralph
by David on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 14:07 UTC

Beagle is hosted on the gnome server, it is developed by many gnome core devs, it integrates with gnome/gtk apps, it uses mono bindings to gtk and gnome-libraries, so what exactly is your point besides trolling?

It's a Mono application, and therefore isn't in Gnome. If Mono is adopted by Gnome then it will be.

Am I missing something?

@Lumbergh
by David on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 14:10 UTC

No matter how much KDE fanboys hate it, the QT license is an issue that isn't going to go away until trolltech gets bought out.

It's an issue that will get solved when Linux desktops have a market.

KDE has the superior framework and the superior speed, but many moons from now when linux on the desktop is actually relevant, KDE will be a very great niche desktop.

As I've said many times - if you ain't go the technology, you ain't going anywhere, because people won't use it. LGPL'd toolkit or not.

@mattb
by David on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 14:27 UTC

i have never implied it.

What's all this about then?

novell has many core gnome devs on the payroll, and as much as they hate to come out and say it, NLD is definately gnome-centric. so yes, they do make money off of gnome.

So they don't make any money off it then? Obviously you've never seen the part where you choose your desktop in the NLD, or where kde-su comes up in Gnome or the continued use of YaST. Yer - really Gnome-centric, or so certain people want you to believe.

ok, you are a java developer who has no knowledge about suns ongoing soap opera with ibm, and their refusal to go a more sane route with their toolkit.

Yer - what's that got to do with Gnome's APIs? Java/Swing is how Sun recommends you go.

your context was fairly meaningless in and of itself. you said that because sun suggested writing guis in swt over gtk (which is what they use all over in jds), that somehow that made gtk bad.

Errrr, no. The point was that Sun are not promoting the use of Gnome or its APIs in any way. They recommend you use Java/Swing, which isn't integrated one iota.

i refer you to my various sarcastic remarks about how companies arent part of the same zealotous horde that make up a nice percentage of the gnome/kde userbase.

Oh, that's sarcasm? Well, my point was that Sun aren't doing anything with Gnome if they continue to promote Java as the only way of programming on JDS.

really? i guess your still using COM, win16, etc then.

Let me guess. You're not employed are you? In case you hadn't heard, no one is re-writing everything in .Net. It's not possible I'm afraid. People have these things called legacy systems that actually do things.

i was trying to be funny.

Wow.

you implied over and over that support of kde meant that they werent officially supporting gnome.

Errr, no - never said that. You implied to start off with, like everyone for the past five years, that Gnome is taking over this that and the other, blah, blah, blah. I've given you ample evidence to chew on that says that is just not happening I'm afraid. The support both, but unfortunately, KDE is where the money is.

sun has basically made gnome into a product that is attractive to the enterprise. this is both through financial and code contributions, and in the performing of usability tests.

Unfortunately, it ain't Gnome as I've pointed out with Sun's promotion of Java, and not being able to develop for Gnome through their development tools. Sun do Gnome a disservice in that.

1) gnome does not receive corporate funding

It does, but some people seem to think that means that Gnome is on the road to world domination. It doesn't mean as much as you would like to think it does.

2) novell doesnt (officially) support gnome in specific, and gtk apps in general

They do, but some people seem to believe that they support only GTK and Gnome applications and think that Novell is becoming Gnome-centric. It isn't - the stuff that makes the money isn't GTK or Gnome-based.

3) novells support of suse makes #2 self-evident

Nope - the fact is that all of the stuff that makes the money, Suse Linux professional and SLES (Suse/Novell's core business - servers), use KDE primarily. That's the way it is - I'm not making that stuff up I'm afraid.

4) gtk sucks and noone uses it

Nope, never said that.

I'd love to know
by Corey on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 17:14 UTC

How a topic on Novell Suse surpassing Windows has turned into a OSX/Gnome/KDE bashing contest.

@144...
by AdamW on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 17:45 UTC

"The only person who finds beagle slow is AdamW"

I find that hard to believe. beagle is just *visibly* slower than every other app I run daily. It feels like an app being run over ssh from a remote host on a wireless LAN, is the best way I can put it - not unusably slow, but just irritating. It takes a noticeable time to open itself after you click on the tray icon, it takes time to quit when you tell it to, all the search results take a little annoying time to show up...it just feels sluggish.

@resnet
by AdamW on Wed 23rd Mar 2005 17:48 UTC

"I use mono-1.1.4, and beagle has yet to fall over or get confused. Prior to 1.1.4, it used to consume a lot of RAM, but I have only 256MB of RAM and I have two other mono apps(muine and tomboy) running 24/7. With 1.1.4 the memory issues have almost disappeared."

How long do you run it for? The devs themselves noted with 0.0.7 that it still has significant memory leaks but they now take a day or so to become really noticeable (instead of about half an hour, as previously). That's an improvement, but for a proper app it's still not remotely acceptable. Oh, and 1.1.4? That would be the, uh, development branch. Yes, I know the developers say people should use it instead of 1.0.6, but it's still the development branch. To me, a 0.7 app that the developers say in their blogs and release notes is unstable, leaky and works best when running on a bleeding-edge development version of mono is...a pretty perfect picture of an app that ain't ready for primetime. To be clear, I'm not saying that Beagle sucks, I *like* it. I'm saying it's a very cool piece of software that is currently in, roughly, alpha state, and relying on it to be at a level where it can be released and trumpeted as a central feature in a month or so's time is bold. ;)