It's been a few years since we ran such a poll. Let's see what most people prefer these days.
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It's old-fashioned, colors are dull, and it really doesn't rock, sorry.
Use ClearLooks theme, it makes Gnome look pretty modern. Gnome looks good to me, it's just needs some refinement in Nautilus and between the apps' DnD and copy/paste. At this point, really, it's just refinements I want to see.
I love XFCE, 4.2 rocks, but it runs HEAVIER than Gnome. Seriously. Gnome uses about 163mb while XFCE uses 172mb.. I'm sure I could hack around it someway and see what the problem is.. but I shouldn't have too.
Also XFCE's file manager sucks ass. Can't wait for the new one, though.
It lacks seriously refinements. For instance, applications that use GTK+, their radio buttons look more like a jittered square than a round. This is gnome. KDE's widgets are sleek.
I am sure there is something else that takes away your memory, not XFce. XFce uses about 20 MBs less than Gnome normally. Run "top" and see what's been eating your memory.
The current xffm file manager of XFce is indeed _terrible_ though, agreed. I don't have my hopes up for Thunar either, as it's very alpha, and we all know that it takes years to get a GOOD and stable file manager.
I really like XFCE. Of course, I believe it could be added with more features (and I think it will be). In fact, I hope to see a distro that brings XFCE as default desktop environment, making KDE, Gnome, and others as "alternatives".
heeheh... :-)
> their radio buttons look more like a jittered square than a round.
This is not true. You are probably used Gnome with a terrible theme or something. I run ClearLooks and I am really happy with it for its usability.
I currently use several but not any on the list. Why don't you include wm's since some of use use them as a DE.
Because I wanted to learn more about KDE/Gnome ratio these days, the rest already have less than even the third option, XFce. Having 10 more options in there each with 1%, doesn't bring much to my curiosity (I run polls just to satisfy my curiosity).
I use WindowLab with the Xplore file manager. Very minimalist, very fast.
http://www.nickgravgaard.com/windowlab/
This is not true. You are probably used Gnome with a terrible theme or something. I run ClearLooks and I am really happy with it for its usability.
Default install. Sony LCD monitor.
Two months ago I would have been voting for XFce, but I intalled gnome 2.10 and I use this DE 100% of my time.
I agree with Carlos, use Clearlooks.
ClearLooks is very pretty, I'll try it here...
thanks.. :-)
>Default install. Sony LCD monitor.
The default theme is really ugly, no one uses it, not even the Gnome developers. This is why it's going to be replaced by Clearlooks. Screenshot:
http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.5_1.png
How are you going to learn anything about the KDE/GNOME ratio by posting the poll on a GNOME biased website? I don't see any KDE applications listed in the sidebar on this site... only GTK+. Please say you want to learn something about your readers, don't say it is something objective about KDE/GNOME users.
You call this "pretty" ?!
http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.5_1.png
I'm a GNOME guy myself, I used it since RH 7. I like the direction GNOME is going. What GNOME has that KDE doesn't have is a lot of interest around it from corporations (which means more devs and money), at least publically. Personally, I see the multitude of controversies around it as something good. I see them as growing pains. Not to take away from KDE's success and popularity at all, since it is a titan of X environments in its own right.
Tell me that Gnome desktop isn't beautiful!
http://ubuntuforums.org/gallery/showimage.php?i=162&c=2
> How are you going to learn anything about the KDE/GNOME ratio by posting the poll on a GNOME biased website?
+1
Why not listing Qt apps ?
Lookt at this screenshot and tell me again that you think these radio buttons look square.
http://miffe.no-ip.org/~miffe/tmp/window.png
This may seem weird but I wish they would develope the XPDE Envir more. I think this would be a great tool for migrating non-technical people over to GNU/Linux who usually only use windows, it looks just like Windows XP most people are familiar with this and having a similar look would make it much easier to migrate them to GNU/Linux
There are no KDE apps posted on the sidebar because we don't have a KDE application site, because kde-apps.org already existed. OSNews is not a biased gnome site, we run that sidebar simply because we also run gnomefiles.org (there was no gnome app listing site back then so we jumped into the business of it).
Personally, I don't even run Gnome anymore (I run WindowMaker) and the onwer of OSNews does not run Linux at all (his main OS is Mac OS X). So, I fail to see the bias, except than trying to promote our sister site with that sidebar, not Gnome in particular!
>Please say you want to learn something about your readers
Of course and I want to learn about what my readers like! That's the part about satisfying my curiosity! OSNews gets all kinds of users, not just gnome users and so it would be cool to see what they like!
They release their next-gen filemanager, Thunar. This and a few MIME-type refinements will make XFCE rock a lot more than it does now. Right now, I'd probably take Fluxbox over XFCE. Now I am a happy GNOME user, cause KDE looks like it was designed by an 8 year old with a box of crayons, and Konquerer is way too complicated to be a day-to-day filemanager.
Obviously this poll is about default install. If you start comparing Gnome theme X with KDE theme Y, we're going nowhere.
>>You call this "pretty" ?!<<
I wouldn't call it pretty if you are comparing it to plastik or Keramik or whatever, but for Gnome, I think it looks great.
For me, GNOME is about staying out of my way, and looking half-way decent at the same time. I find KDE with it's garish themes and super-uber-ultra-over-the-top configurability to be annoying.
I used Red Hat for a longer time than any other distro I've tried. Gnome seemed to me to be the cleaner interface, although KDE the stabler one. I've been using Linspire for about two years now, I think, and really have no problems with KDE.
I've no problem with either.
>>Personally, I don't even run Gnome anymore<<
Say it ain't so. I thought you were the number 1 GNOME fangirl!
To be honest, I switched to Gnome because of you seeming endorsement of it over KDE. Time to load up GNUStep, I guess.
I definitely prefer Gnome over any other X11 environment. But I don't want to use Gnome anymore for reasons I have explained in the past on osnews and on my blog recently. I just have lost my faith in it. Also, I agree with Cactus that it still requires some refinements in some places, especially in nautilus and gnome-panel, but such reports go unheard most of the time by the gnome devs, so who cares...
I prefer GNOME myself - I also like the direction of GNOME, GTK+, Mono. GNOME 2.10 is great, Clearlooks is ummm.. okay I guess, I prefer the Bluecurve them from RH.
KDE is good also and robust but for some reason, I don't like it over GNOME. KDE 3.4.x is looks good from what I have seen (Kubuntu Live CD). Theres just something I don't like about KDE and QT based apps. The only one I really use is K3B which is excellent.
I believe once GNOME gets more and more intergrated, It will be the choice of X11 based desktops. (Beagle, F-Spot, Evolution improvements, etc.)
Also.. go try out the Mono Live CD, its a great one based on Ubuntu. You will see what I mean ass far as mono based apps.
I'd have to say:
wm - fluxbox
file manager - aterm with bash and friends
web - konqueror
eye candy - torsmo, gkrellm, xdesktopwaves
It's OSS! Why use some prepackaged solution when you can piece together the best of everything yourself?
I surely hope no one tries to derive any information from this poll because it would surely be pointless.
I think that there should more options in the poll, at least to include enlightenment, blackbox/fluxbox, and IceWM.
I personally like IceWM more than any other WM because it is very lightweight, easy to configure, has no bloat -> makes you more productive, and because you can assign shortcuts for anything.
IceWM + a good theme (the defaults are horribles) + gtk applications (qt are slow to start) + terminal (the one form XFCE) = best desktop experience.
Anyone should give it a try, and there's a very good report here in OSNews about it: http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=7774&page=1
Anyway, I also like how clean and appealing the GNOME desktop looks, and I like the integration KDE has (Kontact, Kopete, Kparts, etc) , it also has the best file manager in the world (Konqueror).
The great about desktop environments is the fact that everyone could go and change them.
Sometimes the developers know that some areas must me improved, but they are focuded on some other areas. So, if you have the skills, why don't go and make that change?
I see a lot of times that general developers don't feel comfortable about the desktops out there (Gnome, Kde, etc), but don't do anything to change that. They just say 'that sucks, and that too'.
Even for users, thet could try to make a comment on list. Or maybe that communication channel should be improved. But that fact remains: the most you dislike, the most you can do.
I love its simplicity, versatility, and customizability.
And, yes, everything is so... square and grey.
Although, I have been using the CLI more and more often recently, so next time this poll rolls around, my answer may very well be 'none'!
Obviously this poll is about default install. If you start comparing Gnome theme X with KDE theme Y, we're going nowhere.
Since when did theme == DE?
I'm using XFCE right now myself, I came from Gnome, and from KDE before that, and am probably going to try out a few of the smaller ones.
I prefer GTK over QT apps in general, but for a DE I prefer Gnome. However, I Do like to run FVWM as my full blown windows manager. Everything can be configured to your liking.
Gnome seems to be leading at the moment but I bet that KDE wins in the end by large margin. I gave my vote to XFCE, which I use sometimes because it's quite nice.
However, I much prefer to use Window Maker with perlpanel or fbpanel (and with gnome-panel in Frugalware because Frugalware doesn't yet come with any another decent panel). Add there some select dockapps (mixer.app, mount.app, wmcdplay, wmshutdown), aterm, gkrellm, a file manager (xfe), firefox, sylpheed-gtk2, gftp, openoffice, leafpad, xpdf, gtklp, a GUI client to dictd, gimp, gthumb, gxine, zinf, grip, x-cd-roast, games, xlockmore, customized appicons, a cool wallpaper, etc. -- and you've got a "desktop environment" that is slicker and faster than KDE or Gnome.
OK, it's destop environments only.
I must say, I was surprised at Gnome's lead over KDE, and even more at XFce's very respectible third place.
I'm neutral, myself. I'm a Fluxbox user when I'm not on my Mac.
Hey! I like the GNOME default theme. It's so much more high-contrast than Clearlooks, where you have to strain to see anything...
i like smokey blue theme and what is it... desert theme or something like that, very nice, glassy and pretty...
Of course, that is only when I want to look cool, otherwise something lite and ugly is just fine.....
Gnome does both really well 
I haven't tried the latest release from Gnome yet. Voted KDE anyway..
what do you mean themes dont count... either you have some kind of theme or you have nothing... so of course themes count... good grief charley brown
gnome is more basic out of the box but you canmake it look cooler then even KDE if you wish...
icewm should be included... dang it
runs on everything i have from 133mhz to my 2ghz machines and it is fast and smooth thru and thru..... but it is a bit far from a true DE but throw in your favorite toys and wheeeeee away you go..... but i still voted for gnome cause I use to LOVE gnome and hope it will touch me again the way it did years ago... yes I love old gnome, with sawfish and gmc
I don't use KDE because I don't like being blinded by lens flare in my X environment. Also because I loathe the configuration applets. For advanced configuration give me a dotfile, I want the simple quick toggles that I'll use often in my graphical configs.
I don't use Gnome because it's fat. I don't think it looks bad, but it's nothing special (Clearlooks is great, but the titlebar really needs some work). I do love the things Gnome offers, though. I use Gnome panel (though it can use some work), Evince, Abiword, Gnumeric, GMPC, mail-notification, Totem, and Grip regularly. I also finally got Nautilus working well without Gnome running, but I think I've used it twice (long live Eterm!) I'm really looking forward to Beagle and more use of hal/dbus, but I'm not sure I'm liking the heavy use of Mono that's in the future.
I've gone back and forth between Fluxbox-devel, Enlightenment, Blackbox w/ Devil's Pie, and FVWM2; but nothing has a better window memory than E16, and the window edge attraction is implemented perfectly. I'm using E16.8 from CVS right now, the new window handling code fixes a lot of glitches, but unfortunately shading is still a little slow.
There are a few great new features in E16.8 too. Like you can set windows to skip the window lists, and remember it. There's a new fullscreen setting in addition to maximize, which finally makes terminals maximize cleanly. And x.org transparency and shadow options are everywhere, though I haven't used them.
A lot of people seem to forget about E16 with all the talk about E17, but DR16 has matured greatly in the last few releases. And it runs well on my P3 800!
I personally find KDE far superior to Gnome (only my opinion), but one of the reasons I migrated from Windows to Linux was because I could not configure it the way I wanted it to be. Gnome seems to have no configurability, whereas with KDE, the sky is the limit, I can change anything to do anything I want the way I want........ and fairly easily. There are certain things that I have become accustomed to in KDE that absolutely drive me nutts in Gnome because I cannot change it.
Since when does modern and clean equal toyish? Between "Luna" and the latest KDE themes (yes, including the beloved Plastik), what everything calls clean and pretty I see as overly bloated and toyish! OS X is an example of how it can be done well- its widgets are nice looking (perhaps to a bit over-the-top degree), but they don't have 900px of wasted space per widget, and they don't look like Tonka toys. Really, though, widgets looked nice in Windows 2000 (for some reason, the XP Classic versions just don't look as nice), and they look nice in Gnome with a simple Bluecurve-esque theme. Qt looks bloated no matter how you style it!
[/end rant]
PS: Also, why did Eugenia make this topic? It's obviously an invitation for a gentoo-forums-style multipage rant on the relative merits of gtk+ and qt, with the occassional reference to Aqua and Windows' various UI APIs. Hopefully I've covered everything in this post. 
PPS: Please don't take anything seriously in any of the posts on this topic...
Of course I'm biased. But I think this looks as good as any
other desktop out there.
http://www.borgerding.org/dropline/zborgerd/screenshots/2.10_1.png
I wouldn't call it pretty if you are comparing it to plastik or Keramik or whatever, but for Gnome, I think it looks great.
I would call it pretty when compared to Keramik and Plastik. Those particular themes look childish to me. Clearlooks is understated and professional. Just the right touch of round and square. Complete, and well done. It's my favorite theme out of any DE on any OS.
Then again, that's just me. I also hate the Mac OSX theme, both the aqua and the brushed metal look (that usually drops a few jaws when I say that). I really dig something simplistic and understated. Basically, get out of my way and let me work, but still look damn good doing it
you can change everything and anything in gnome, and it is so modular you can turn off pieces you dont need or use them in a different window manager or whatever. the problem seems to be the gnome guys hiding more and more configuration and making it hardder to do so. KDE seems to have confusing configuration, you will think something should be under "display" and yet it is under "theme" or something...always have to search forever.... But often tweaking gnome is very simple but often not well documented or it is so simple that you arent accustomed to doing it that way....
and I agree Enlightenment is totally cool as well, I wish they could of turned right around and got everything right the first time on E17 since it seems to be so innovative but I am glad he is taking his time to get it right and nothing wrong with 16 at all...
I don't use a DE - I see no reason to waste system resources on something like that. KDE is good as far as customizability goes, but Gnome is a little faster. I don't really like either, though, because of their complexity - they tend to be more buggy, and I don't need a fancy start menu or anything. I just need to have virtual desktops, keyboard shortcuts for window resizing/movement, and a shortcut to launch rxvt. I use Torsmo and root-tail for system monitoring in BadWM. Other than that, just give me rxvt and I'm happy.
As far as WMs go, on my desktop machine I'm currently using Ion2. Great tiling WM, fast, and "decent" keyboard input (a bit awkward at first). On my laptop I use BadWM.
However, I'm currently coding my own minimalistic WM, based off of TinyWM. It'll be similar to BadWM, only more minimalistic (yes, you can get even more minimalistic ). Hoping to have a good beta in the next couple of weeks
Nothing beats the ability to edit files remotely via ssh or ftp in any kde editor.
No other DE or even any OS can do that. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
I find Qt to be more responsive.
The last Gnome I tried was 2.0. vowed never again .. 15 X11 and kernel crashes in 30mins.
I did get to try out the Gnome on Ubuntu however. For what it is it's decent. But I found it incredibly difficult to configure and well.. Use..
For the file manager you can't go up a directory easily. I despise the open a directory new window opens.
and even more so hate the click an option and it's applied immediately that's infected every Gnome/GTK app around it.
that type of response is very undesirable because it doesn't make it clear what exactly is happening or even what the Ok and Cancel buttons do. If it's applied right away do I need to click Ok?
What happens if I wanted to click an option just to see what it could enable but I didn't want to use it.. and it's applied right away and something happens that causes something very undesirable to happen. What that could be I have no clue. but that reaction could result in that.
I will admit however there are certain areas in Gnome that I felt to be a bit more developed. that was from the 2.0 version tho. Since then KDE has caught up.
Let me edit the start menu without ripping my hair I will switch to Gnome that day.
I still like my own somewhat modified Gorilla theme the best.
http://www.borgerding.org/dropline/paulbest/screenshots/20050426a.p...
(just an app screenshot of evince, but you get the idea.)
The bright themes with lots of blue and bright yellow just hurt my eyes too much after a lot of use. The old reliable Ximian color scheme is still my favorite.
I just love E16 (haven't tried 17 yet). It's lean, clean, fast, never gets in my way and looks absolutely gorgeous. Couldn't ask for more.
Every once in a while, I also use Xfce. It's quite nice too; just like Sun's CDE, except that it doesn't suck.
KDE is by far the best desktop environment I've ever used because I can customize it and there are tons of cool features.
I simply cannot use Gnome because I can't get the windows to grab each other properly. The behavior is exactly the same as Microsoft Windows here. Will this ever be fixed?
XFCE is perfect if you have resource limitations. I installed Gentoo on an old computer at work to use as a second workstation. It's a 700 MHz PIII with 128 MB RAM. I wouldn't even dream of trying to run KDE plus other things on that box, but XFCE runs wonderfully and I can easily configure the window behavior to my preferences.
"I simply cannot use Gnome because I can't get the windows to grab each other properly. The behavior is exactly the same as Microsoft Windows here. Will this ever be fixed?"
Unless I'm mistaken about what you're asking about, it should be (alt+)shift+drag of a window.
Firstly - i'm very surprised that Gnome is in the lead. I think that the poll has been marked as being tampered with is a good explanation for that phenonomen. From talking to people, the vast majority seem to run KDE (i'd estimate 60% of Linux users that I know). Polls that i've seen conducted elsewhere over time seem to correlate with this figure that i've reached.
Gnome is what I consider very 'dumbed' down. I don't like being told that I can't (easily) configure something. For those bitching about KDE and it's configurability - you *don't* have to reconfigure it just because you have the option. So, what's the problem?
For those bitching about UI - I haven't used Gnome since v1.4 and it went downhill from there imho. KDE has just improved and improved and improved.
Windows/icons? KDE childish? Not in my eyes. It looks clean, crisp and professional.
QT vs GTK? GTK is just plain ugly. Plain ugly. Let me repeat it again for the dumb - plain ugly.
Speed? Gnome does indeed start up faster, and KDE have responded to this by improvements - compare KDE 3.1.4 to 3.4 and you'll see what I mean. With the release of KDE 4 we should see an even larger speed increase. I don't think it'll match Gnome for speed even then though, but I think QT does more, and doing more simply takes more time.
Some choose Gnome because QT by Trolltech isn't considered to be 'free' - fair enough.
I also like XFCE 4.* - very nice. Afterstep rocks as well. So please don't call me a KDE fanboy ;-)
Dave
KDE fan boys prefer WinXP or KDE?
I prefer GNOME to WinXP. And for the looks of Longhorn, I think I will prefer GNOME to Longhorn as well.
The problem is that when you want to configure one thing you get fifteen pages of options you don't need. They spread everywhere. It's annoying. Here's a brilliant way to compare GNOME and KDE - look at Beagle, and look at Kat. Beagle is a search box with results under it. Kat is a search box, results, and fifteen thousand options on the main window...
lol funny, when i went to pick KDE it gave me a "the page contains no data" error, didnt do the same thing when i voted for "other" on my second try, nice 
Whenever I see rounded corners on dialog boxes, it bothers the hell out of me. People don't realize how much UI is a resource hog. Stupid little details like rounded corners, shadowing and bitmapped gradients bog down even a system such as Mac G4. You can literally feel the lag of the mouse movements and clicks as you move around the screen and open and close windows. This is partly why I'm not a particular fan of Gnome and KDE. They keep pushing the memory constraints and don't try to balance the actually system resources.
KDE is the best by a long shot. Faster, better usability, and better technology. If I had to use GNOME apps, I'd use XFce over Nautilus. Nautilus sucks and spatial browsing too. The only reason to keep GNOME libs is because Mono guys use GTK# and the QT# aren't going anywhere right now. >:|
BTW the new GNOME look Clearlook sucks, Industrial was much nicer. The tabs are fugly and look like OS/2 Warp 4 style.
This has been consistent for a while, so no matter what happens, this has been recorded; And the winner is: GNOME. :-)
WindowLab looks cool, I'll have to try it. Does it have an AmigaOS 2.x color theme for it?
My favorite window managers, which I haven't used in a loonnng time, are AmiWM and mlvwm. Both very buggy, but nice. AmiWM especially was *fast*.
There are aspects of the AmigaOS 2+ UI and the MacOS 7-8 UI that are very nice and simple. I wish that I could meld them together into one.
What is with putting the close box next to the sizing boxes on the title bar? Didn't MacOS X and Windows 95 (and after) get criticized for that? Too easy to hit the wrong button.
Reread the note, it's not saying that the poll has been tampered with, it's detailing what will be done if the poll is tampered with. That got me for a second too, the wording leads you the wrong direction at first.
Will, I totally agree. I use Ion2 myself, not a big fan of lua or whatever it's called, but was able to customize my key bindings and haven't looked back since. I can't stand wasted real estate anymore! Ion2 is virtually invisible, it doesn't get in the way, it just does it's job. Which reminds me of the old unix philosophy, "... do one job and do it well."
I spent about a month trying to switch from windows between Kubuntu and Ubuntu. After a couple of weeks I finally configured my modem and devices with Kubuntu, and spent some time surfing with Konquerer, using Kopete, Amarok... Nice DE, and some of the eye candy is great, but I seemed to experience a lot of application crashes (and I'd continually have to remove the ~/.kate to get it to run again).
Switched to Ubuntu, got rid of the brown and I haven't booted back into windows in several weeks. Gnome seems just a bit more elegant to me; I like the Applications | Places | System on the bar and haven't experienced many application crashes. Amarok is certainly superior to Rhythmbox but I actually prefer Rhythmbox's simplicity, and hope that it will become just a bit more feature rich in the future.
I really thought the abundance of K's in the K Menu was overdone, and a bit tacky (Kopete, amaroK, Kate, Koffice, etc. it's hard on the eyes!)
Against GNOME, I have to say that Totem sucks at playing just about anything. Xine and VLC work well, however.
For ROX, combined with its session manager and native window manager it truly ROCKS!!! And with a Zero Install repository of applications it represents a truly innovative computing environment that solves the application distribution/dependency problem and provides a very elegant working environment.
How so?
Can it beat the apt-get/Synaptic way? In what way?
Here is the one big problem with KDE. QT. It is not because QT is bad actually I like it alot. Here is the problem. I talk to a client wanting to use a linux solution. The client likes what they see and uses linux, but the DE on the system is KDE. Then the client goes to develop a commercial application for the system. They then find out oops we need to spend ~1500 per developer to use QT for this project. They say you don't have to do this on Windows or Mac OS ... Why should we do it here. You could say use GTK but they don't like that because it doesn't intergrate into there chosen KDE desktop they love so much. Not good, not good at all. I say that is a huge advantage that Gnome/XFCE has over KDE.
I quite like ratpoison - it's best described as GNU screen for X11. All windows are full screen, and you switch through them with Control+T and the corresponding number. Unfortunately, this makes running multi-window applications like the GIMP rather difficult.
Otherwise XFCE 4.0 is excellent - I have tried 4.2 and was unimpressed. Alot of the simplicity had vanished, and the new icon theme is absolutely ghastly. It's a shame, really.
I wanted to mention that I have alway's found KDE to be more responsive. But with Cairo I think this will change in Gnome. That is ofcourse if you have a 4dcard. oops I mean 3d
Against GNOME, I have to say that Totem sucks at playing just about anything. Xine and VLC work well, however.
People need to stop dogging Totem! It can use several different backends. The one installed by default is gstreamer (poor decision, IMO). If you want it to use xine for playing stuff, install the totem-xine package. It will then play everything xine can play, but with a decent GUI.
Anonymous, I have to disagree with you about it being a poor choice about using the gstreamer backend. Yes, I've had alot of problems with it myself I think for once this is an instance where it SHOULD be pushed more. gstreamer is really a revolutionary look at media decoding (and encoding for that matter). It should be pushed more to the forfront to get more bug posts, patches, and fixes.
Tho it is a pain in the ass to try and load a media file and having Totem crap itself. Maybe if Totem started with a dialogue box saying "Do you want to use the buggy but radically superior gstreamer system and help us improve it at the risk of instability or use X? 
SlackWare Linux 10.1
FluxBox WM
Xfce4 Panel w/ some swanky plugins. :-)
ROX Pinboard & ROX Filemanager.
Bashish (with my own custom theme)
Aterm sometimes.
On my other Box:
XFCE4
ROX Pinboard & File Manager
Ok, first you name a kile-equvalent great latex editor with gnome integration. Second, you name a kdevelop3-equivalent fully integrated rad environment for gtk/gnome. Third, you tell me how easy (/grin,big/) it is to customize every aspect of gnome at the level of kde. HIG is not everything you know.
I've been using kde since 1.x, and I've been trying to use gnome since 1.x, Still, after some years, my choice (though absolutely _not_ final) is kde. The most powerful linux de I've ever came in contact with. I have a such customized kde here, that is slick, fast, still is nice and fill every need I have. The only thing I like in gnome is the gtk2 file selector, which is still not better or more usable than the kde selector.
I also have xfce4 (great stuff !) and gnome installed all the time and upgraded when new version pop up, but neither has managed to forget kde. Yet.
Oh, and I read from time to time that some use gnome because kde looks like windows - and I call bullshit everytime. If this is your point of decision, use fluxbox, e16 or windowmaker, they are fast, and usable (if you know what you're doing). I use kde because it's flexible, I have the means to run it really fast, and has every native widget application that I need (which are a LOT).
Your post sums up pretty well what most KDE users think about the available Desktop Environments, I think.
What I think the KDE users have wrong is how good the GTK+ apps look and feel in a good GNOME environment; or how bad the GTK+ apps look and feel in a KDE environment. Ubuntu is the only way to take a deep look on how a good GNOME environment generally looks and feels.
It disgusts me to see how non-QT and non-KDE apps look in a KDE environment. Firefox, for example, should be taken care of, because it's the preferred browser to a lot of us. We prefer it to Konqueror, and it does not matter how good Konqueror may be. The theme should not make Firefox look ugly. The fonts should be ok by default as well. It totally sucks to use Firefox in some distros. Worse, some distros still bundle Mozilla.
Well like most of us I started out on KDE, with RedHat I came to Gnome after having made bad experiences with KDE 3.0. I have to say that nowadays I consider KDE too slow, it's totally bloated, in the configuration menu I loose the overview... Gnome has gotten a lot more good apps the last few years and has evolved a lot. Also there is nice themes available and hell its a lot faster then KDE, but in my opinion also Gnome becomes more and more bloated nowadays. It needs some cleanup, the RAM usage begins to get too much. Therefor I got verry happy with enlightenment. I don't need a fancy menu or anything anyway and e is very modern, fast and especially themeable, too
KDE is a joy for me to use. I love how well integrated things are. Things like KHotkeys (gestures and shortcuts, anywhere, extra keys on my keyboard), IRKick (for use with my remote control) and so on I have a built in method of accomplishing things for which I often see large tutorials written.
The code is easy to get into as well, which is a must for me. I don't always muck about with my apps but when some little thing bugs me I have to be able to (why I used litestep as my shell on windows), and KDE makes it easy.
I like being able to make choices about my environment. I can switch the button order on dialogs. Gnome users can't. I can have a top level menubar like on the Mac. I use many of the obscure options and some of the hidden, text file only ones. Not everyone needs to, but they are there if you want them.
Developing apps is pretty smooth too, and of course there is the possibility of using managed code. I recently ported a java app of mine from swt/swing over to qt just to see how, and it gives a good impression of a native app
Choice is a strong suit of linux, and KDE offers plenty. Others will choose Gnome, and it's good to see the diversity. We've all got our reasons for preferring a DE, those were mine.
>I hope to see a distro that brings XFCE as default desktop environment, making KDE, Gnome, and others as "alternatives".
-------------------------------------------------------------
Xfld, a Knoppix based live cd use Xfce as the default DE.
It will be KDE for my DE of choice. The fact is that i like the overall design, the mechanics of the Qt libs, and the i18n support. It's true, in my sense, that by default it is quietly bloated, but hey so are the Gnome and Mac defaults. It's nothing.
Another thing, this time about the what i hate about Gnome : if you want to OOP, shouldn't it be better to use an OOP language by default ? And not C ?? Well... Only my $0.02
Nice idea to open the polle while europe was sleeping! Sure no votes came from that! (and they're kde lovers)
Against GNOME, I have to say that Totem sucks at playing just about anything. Xine and VLC work well, however.
sudo apt-get install totem-xine
This replaces the very immature gstreamer backend with a nice xine backend. Basically means you can play anything and everything.
People ussually sleeps at night in time-zones different from USA's.
Anyway, it seems that not much people voted, so this poll is useless.
15 X11 and kernel crashes is just that, crash in X and the kernel. If X crashes it is the fault of X, not any app running under X. If the kernel crashes it is the fault of the kernel, not any app it is running, Gnome may have triggered the bugs, but the bugs are not due to Gnome.
we can do most amy task or beautification in the current desktops, from twm to kde3. For an underpowered and/or small pc I prefer icewm. Otherwise, I prefer KDE because wallpaer rotation is so easy to set up. I like xscreensaver and kde will run with that, after I make sure to turn off the native kde screensaver also.
BUT my favorite has not been invented yet. It is a cap like device comunicating with all my 5+ senses, responding to my comands. wireless and wired humanity.
On Solaris, I use Gnome, because I'm too lazy to get anything else up, and I can only stand CDE for so long. Before they did away with it, I used OpenLook sometimes.
On Linux/BSD, I use WindowMaker w/ GWorkspace for filemanager. I'd like to use GDesktop full-time, but it doesn't necessarily play nicely with wmaker, and I've found it to be somewhat unstable still.
>People ussually sleep at night in time-zones different from USA's.
Problem is that I need to go to sleep and I can't monitor the poll anymore for script kiddies (which is important for this kind of poll, as we got hit in the past). The poll was open for many hours, including for Europe's morning. Besides, I don't think that it makes much of a difference if other continents are awake or not, users are users.
[...] there are also a couple of surveys running right now, one over at os news polling for people's favourite x11 desktop environment [...]
[Edit: the OS News poll is now closed. by my count it was up for around 6 hours? that's got to be one of the fastest internet polls i've seen in a while. not to mention those 6 hours were during the night in Europe. interesting. and by "interesting" i mean "lame". i wonder why it got pulled so quickly.]
http://aseigo.blogspot.com/2005/06/these-are-days.html
I prefer the smaller/minimalist wm's over things such as KDE and Gnome. I used to work with WMX a lot, but recently I'm more working with Blackbox, and at the moment it's almost perfect: http://home.nedlinux.nl/~kryptos/screenshots/blackbox/27052005-blac...
I've been WindowMaker fan for a looong time, then switched to fvwm2, and never looked back.I also occasionaly use gnome+metacity, when fvwm is unavailable on the box.
Hello? I visit OSNews daily and did not get the chance to vote, how can that be!?!
"Germans get very nationalistic about KDE."
They do? Is that the reason why I voted for Gnome? How is mentioning the fact that KDE is more popular in Europe, whereas Gnome is more popular in the US nationalistic?
"That's kind of scary."
Bohh....
"Too bad that Qt has a viral license and that's why Novell, Sun, Ubuntu, and RedHat have all decided to use Gnome."
Wow, what a cheap troll.
1. Those companies haven't decided to use Gnome.
2. Viral? Aha, that must be the reason why said companies don't use the linux kernel that is published under the same license...
"Gnome has won the desktop environment war."
1. There is no war. Whoever thinks there is a war is either 13, or needs to grow up fast.
2. Gnome hasn't won and Gnome shouldn't win. Gnome is improving and I very much enjoy it, KDE is also improving and I'm also enjoying it, which leaves me with two great Desktop Enviroments to choose from. Great.
Finally, this poll is totally senseless. Polls like this only lead to flamefests and I have to agree with others who noted that closing the poll just the second people from Europe start voting isn't the most intelligent thing to do.
Hello? I visit OSNews daily and did not get the chance to vote, how can that be!?!
You're European, so you probably would have voted the wrong option. Luckily, Eugenia thought about this and decided to close the poll before it was too late.
Suggestion for Eugenia: next time, do a poll with only one choice ("Gnome"), so there won't be any problem with timezones.
Cheers.
An only 6 hours during poll during European night times?
> The poll was open for many hours, including for Europe's morning. Besides, I don't think that it makes much of a difference if other continents are awake or not, users are users.
Of course it makes a difference! I can tell you without polls that GNOME is way more popular in US and KDE is way more popular in Europe.
I am from Bavaria, so calling me German is an insult:-) Seriously, that I prefer KDE to GNOME has nothing to do that I am from Germany. I mainly prefer KDE because of its superior underlying framework. I just think that C++ is a better OO language then C:-))
"I am from Bavaria, so calling me German is an insult:-)"
Just to clarify this a bit.
It's an insult for us Germans from the north. :-D
SCNR
No poll when I go to bed, and it's closed when I wake up? Bah. Duh. Boooh!
Well, there is no comparison to Fluxbox anyway. Gnome and KDE are great efforts, but unfortunately slow and bloated.
It's like taking the jumbo jet to the store for crocery shopping.
I find KDE far superior to Gnome. It has far better features, more configurability, more integration and a bright future due to its well established framework. I don't like a graphical environment in which whenever I need something out of the ordinary I need to open a bash terminal anyway. That's why I can't stand Gnome.
XFCE with ROX-Filer, until enlightenment dr17 anyway.
"I don't like a graphical environment in which whenever I need something out of the ordinary I need to open a bash terminal anyway. That's why I can't stand Gnome."
Huh?
Examples would be nice.
Just working with files in Gnome is a pain. Konqueror and Krusader makes it as easy as it can be, even across local networks or through SSH thanks to KIO-Slaves. Nautilus is no match for any of them, it's slow, lacks features, and in my experience not reliable enough.
Ehm, nautlius can use ssh too, you know.
Anyway, you tried to proof one claim you made without examples with an other claim you made without examples, which isn't very convincing to say the least.
Wow, I went to bed before this was posted, now some 7-8 hours later it's closed.. how about letting such polls live for at least 24 hours?
This as been posted today and it is already closed!!!!
Here in Europe it is 11 AM and I can't participate!!!
HA! HA!
Can you tell me what you are trying to do whith this poll??
But how about using apples X11 server on OSX? Easily the best IMO
Hello? I visit OSNews daily and did not get the chance to vote, how can that be!?!
You're European, so you probably would have voted the wrong option. Luckily, Eugenia thought about this and decided to close the poll before it was too late.
Suggestion for Eugenia: next time, do a poll with only one choice ("Gnome"), so there won't be any problem with timezones.
Cheers.
Well... Anyone who has been coming at this site for at least three months or so - not necessarily in a daily basis - knows Eugenia´s opinion and "editorial touches" fairly well, so this shouldn´t be comes out exactly as a surprise.
See Aaron Seigo´s blog already mentioned before to see his opinion about this.
Every poll ran in any other Linux sites shows not only that KDE is the favorite DE in Linux but also by a wide margin. Year after year it is regarded as the favorite Linux Desktop Environment.
Anyway, I´ll also join the crowd that visits OSNews daily and that hadn´t a chance to vote.
Fair enough. In Konqueror, I can split the window as many times as I like, I can use tabs, I can filter by file type with a click, I can open an embedded terminal and drag and drop files between the window and the terminal. When I'm comfortable with the layout, I can also create profiles for that so I don't have to set it up again next time. When I need to access something frequently, I can add an entry in the Konqueror open dialog, far more powerful that the new GTK one and make that entry visible for other KDE apps, and it's been that way for years now.
Having a powerful file manager is a must in a desktop environment IMHO. Gnome does not have one up to the task, and its philosophy of simplicity is carried across all the environment. As in the Konqueror example, KDE on the other hand gives me power and features. I know there are people who prefer the Gnome aproach, I'm just not one of them since it does not provide me with nothing that Fluxbox and a couple of terminals cannot do.
> Problem is that I need to go to sleep and I can't
> monitor the poll anymore for script kiddies (which
> is important for this kind of poll, as we got hit in
> the past). The poll was open for many hours, including
> for Europe's morning.
Hello, I am also European. I understand quite well your problem, but I think the real one is a *daily* reader could not even participate to it. I've checked OSNews yesterday at 20h, and this morning at 9h. It's quite disturbing to find in the morning:
- a new poll
- to which it is not possible to participate because it is already closed
Now, to be honnest, I would not have participate to the poll. :-)
But I understand quite well the reactions on the shortness of the poll.
Now that's an argument.
I know that you can also do at least some of the things with nautilus, but probably not all you mentioned.
Anyway, that I didn't miss them shows that I don't really need them I think and nautilus (especially its simplicity) is really good enough for me, or even superior.
It's old-fashioned, colors are dull, and it really doesn't rock, sorry.
This is actually a good quality of a DE That will help getting focus on your data and your application. A good GUI should be there for the user when he needs it, in all other occations it should stay out of the face of the user.
In this respect Gnome is much better than KDE or windows XP.
Anyway, that I didn't miss them shows that I don't really need them
Well, no The fact that you don't miss them is because you didn't get get addicted to them (yet . As a former Gnome user, I slowly began to learn all these little tricks in KDE's file manager (split views, embedded terminal, ...) to the point that now I really couldn't use Nautilus anymore, because my way of working with files (and web browsing too) has dramatically changed.
1 - The poll was only half a day, then european people had no time to vote
2 - the poll was annouced on planet.gnome http://pubcrawler.org/2005/06/02/x11-desktop-poll-at-osnews/
This cannot conclude about habits of people and the DE they use. Users are not all the same... their habits and prefered software vary from culture to culture. For example I believe here in Germany most users uses KDE (Because suse was a kde centric distribution).I also know, french people also prefer kde to gnome (because of mandrake I'm thinkm thought I'm not really sure.). And I really like XFce but I dont believe they have 12 % voters (too much!).
Why not make a page whith statistic about language linux users are speaking, DE they are using, themes they are using, and so on ? Polls should stay for at least one week. That would be nice, and very usefull (think at software developper). Perhabs it's possible to do somethink like "distrowatch" did.
But on the other side, that could be bad for DE people don't use as much (no software developped for them).
Please remember that KDE and GNOME are way too different and have different focus. I'm a GNOME guy and I use it because of it's simple UI. It may me dumbed down, but it is simpler than KDE and easier to use - not that KDE is difficult to use. KDE may have a better technology and may have 10x more features than GNOME, but I just don't care. all I want a simple UI. If I want to do something nasty, I'll use the console; if i have to recommend a Desktop Environment, I'll recomment both and tell them to use what they like, but for me is GNOME all the way.
I really wish that someone made a simpler, dumbed down version of KDE.
Ehm, nautlius can use ssh too, you know.
Sure it can, and so can all other real Gnome apps. The problem is that there is so few of them. Many apps thought of as Gnome applications by many people is in fact gtk apps or just mimic the look of Gnome but lacks gnome-vfs features.
In KDE almost every application built for that environment have full capabilites with respect to kio-slaves.
This is of course only to a minor extent a problem of Gnome, but a problem of lazy developers, or is it that much harder to for a developer to make use of these Gnome features than it is for a KDE developer to use kio-slaves?
If so, the problem would be Gnome related.
"Well, no The fact that you don't miss them is because you didn't get get addicted to them (yet "
Not really. I've mainly used KDE for a long time and am still using it, but at the moment I'm mostly using Gnome. So I'm quite aware of the features you mentioned, but I never really used them in KDE either, or I didn't really like them.
For example, I don't really need split views all that often (and btw. split views wouldn't make sense in spatial nautilus anyway), but if I needed them I'd just use one of the gtk-filemanagers that offer them.
Further, drag and drop between nautilus and the terminal should also work without a problem, though the terminal isn't embedded.
Adding directories to the file chooser dialog also isn't a problem and filtering by filetype with one click is also possible in nautilus.
Oh, and I never got tabed file management anyway. :-D
I know and I totally agree with you that KDE (for whatever reason) has an edge over Gnome when it comes to infrastructure or use of infarstructure such as kio-slaves and kparts.
Then you have to try out GNUStep! It looks even more dull and grayish, so by your definition it should beet GNOME by a large margin in productivity:-) (No ofence to GNUStep, I think the underlying framework is wonderful, I just thing it is not visually pleasing).
To Eugenia: announcing the Poll at Planet GNOME but nowhere else makes the whole poll even more rediculous. The one thing I really dislike about GNOME is this kind of "marketing" by GNOME zealots. I wouldn't be surprised if the real reason to close the poll was that KDE started to get lots of votes. (Don't get me wrong, I don't care if people use KDE or GNOME, it is there own decision and I think it is great that there is so much choice when it comes to desktop environments under Linux).
the poll is that rapidly closed. so I guess the results reflects the opinions of the america's only !
Not to mention that the things gnome claims to do (like the vfs stuff) in many cases doesn't work very well or is particulary stable. I tend to work a lot against files connected via ftp or fish.. Let me just say that Gnome doesn't cut it.
Gnome High contrast theme with Glider window borders. Can't be beat. Simple and easy to use with a pleasent look. I think Gnome is going in a great direction but the people responsible for gstreamer and the recent plugings release need to be hung out to dry. Not happy over that one but at least there are alternatives.
Come on make it alittle more diverse. Fluxbox? Openbox? Blackbox? Enlightenment? Enlightenment17? Icewm? Fvwm?
http://enlightenment.freedesktop.org
very snappy ( Cel400 + matrox G200 + RAM 128 ), cute effects, why not use enlightenment as default GNOME WM ?
By now Kubuntu is not compareable with Ubuntu . Ubuntu is much more polished . And the crashes you did suffer with Kubuntu are not only KDE faults . Most of them are Kubuntu's problems . I prefer KDE over GNOME but I have to say there are some distros like Fedora , /K/Ubuntu which for me are more GNOME-ish and other distros like Slackware , SUSE , Mandriva which look more KDE-ish for me . For my tastes both GNOME and KDE are useable but with different distros . Don't forget IceWM . It's the best light DE for me . Works very well on older machines .
very snappy ( Cel400 + matrox G200 + RAM 128 ), cute effects, why not use enlightenment as default GNOME WM ?
Because it's still in a prerelease state...
I'm posting this from inside it, and it is wonderful; but you wouldn't want everyone using it. Especially given the GNOME trend of making everything "easy to use" (dumbing down; a rose by any other name...); they wouldn't know what had hit them!
ATM I can think of several serious issues I've found with E17, that I put up with (mostly multimonitor related), but you'd never use it as the foundation for a major project like GNOME - at least not until it becomes somewhat more stable.
KDE: It's very flexible.
http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=24527
OR
http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=23535
Gnome and KDE no way! CDE,XFCE 3 and Olvwm is the way to go ohhhyeah!!
Could voting be reopend, I'm just awake and have not yet had the chance to vote.
...that this poll wasn't closed so fast to let Gnome win it. <g>
The list is indeed quite small.
The most annoying problem with all these DE is that they include some funky file managers. Who on earth would like to use Nautilus or the KDE one. They both are uber slow and so buggy.
I just don't understand GNOME and KDE developers on that point.
Because I wanted to learn more about KDE/Gnome ratio these days, the rest already have less than even the third option, XFce.
Then you're not going to learn anything. The poll isn't open long enough for one thing, and is only open to people who do nothing but read OSNews. You've then got people being a bit like the French thinking "Well we didn't get the result we wanted the last time so we'll ignore it".
The Desktop Consortium's survey is about as good as you're going get as online polls go.
I can say for a user of Linux, s/he obviously likes the whole geekiness aspect of full control at your fingertips. KDE offers such control.
For home users (such as myself) I prefer Gnome. It's not an argument, just a matter of user level. You have to be more tech savy to run KDE because the amount of options would overwhelm a normal Windows user (who by the way hardly even touches the Control Pannel unless the phone tech tells them to.)
I used to be a Dell telephone technition a while back, so my source for this comment is my past experience. From this I can say I used KDE back in those days because I likes playing around with my GUI. Now I just wanna get stuff done. I wanna check my email, surf the web, watch a few movies or listen to music without having to shuffle through menus or bubbly icons that hurt my eyes (admit it you KDE guys, the pretty colors do kind of get old). I'm not dogging KDE. It's a great learning tool, and a great base for a DE (I love what Lycoris has done with it) But for a more refined professional approach to the desktop, Gnome is the way to go. IE: They both have their pro's and cons, that is why I did not vote.
I slowly began to learn all these little tricks in KDE's file manager (split views, embedded terminal, ...) to the point that now I really couldn't use Nautilus anymore, because my way of working with files (and web browsing too) has dramatically changed.
Interestingly, it's exactly the opposite for me. Spatial Nautilus dramatically changed my way of working with files, for this reason alone I couldn't be happy with KDE (or XFCE) anymore. Generally I'd like my desktop to be more object oriented than application oriented. Luckily I really like GNOME, because otherwise I wouldn't have any alternative right now.
I check OSnews once a day and I didnt get to vote
Plus u exclude all the smaller window managers.
What's the point??? DUH!!
I could list at least 10 other ones...
BTW, I like to think of KDE as Kids Desktop Environment. It's colorful, has big icons and looks just like windows so kids can learn easily....
Now go ahead and moderate me down yeah...
First post: Posted on 2005-06-02 00:22:37
Most recent post: Posted on 2005-06-02 12:10:10
That means the poll was open less than 12 hours!!!!
A healthy "KDE vs GNOME vs everything else" poll every now and then, why not? :-)
I appreciate KDE and its developers a lot, and find it superior to Gnome too. Only one thing I would absolutely borrow from Gnome: a stand alone light-weight file manager, indipendent from the internet browser. Ok, tabs, file type filtering with a click, embedded terminals, profiles are really great, but using konqueror for intensive file managing tasks still makes Konqueror rather sluggish and unresponsive (increased startup times if one loads more than one instance).. I whish one day KDE developers decided to split Konqueror in two parts, or at least, if they want to keep things as they currently are (it must be admitted that many people seem to like konqui as it is, maybe their pc is more poweful than mine), someone could hack a lighter "Kfm" out of Konqui, to be preloaded instead of the mighty parent at the session startup.
That is what makes me now use Windowmaker instead (which has no native file manager at all.. sob sob!)
[No criticsm anyway, only a whish!!]
Quote:
"The most annoying problem with all these DE is that they include some funky file managers. Who on earth would like to use Nautilus or the KDE one. They both are uber slow and so buggy. "
How credible are you if you comment on a program as if you were a daily user, but don't know the name of the program?
In fact, both Nautilus and Konqueror are fast and are not "so" buggy.
What is "so" anyway?
Does it crash every second? Once a day?
Does it not have the features you like?
why would you want tabs on a file manager?
so can the kde guys burn cds from their file manager, I can in Gnome....
I probably bitched about spatial as much or more than anybody, once I used it a while it was super fantastic and now I install nautilus on other window managers so I can use it!
Oh and can I run the kde panel on a different window manager like I can in gnome. Can I switch window managers in KDE and they still work well Like I can in Gnome. Oh and my favorite, which is picky but still cool can you right click a icon and resize it. It is great having different size icons, the trash can I make small while the ones I use most are largest so my eye is immediately drawn to the items I use most...
too coool...okay so I am a lamer
Oh, and I assume the poll got closed because of vote loading... So I certainly understand.... not happy, but understand!
Maybe the reason it was closed early was that the real purpose was to show again that kde was the most used, this motivated by the recent "fallout" between the editor and the gnome camp. And since this did not turned out as planned, the poll was quickly closed...
These polls will never be accurate anyway. I see results differing a lot depending on the site. linuxquestions.org shows kde being most used, neowin.net shows gnome etc. etc. In total, kde is probably most used by the people visiting the types of sites such polls are most often held, but it is hard to tell.
People should not be so focused on "their" environment being the best. Stating env X is far superior to env Y when talking about these two is just silly. They are both great achievements and have their strengths and weaknesses. If so many can use both and be satisfied, something has to be done right.
I really hope we won't see a clear "winner" anytime soon. Having them both provides a little healthy competition and the ability to do a little experimentation and development in different areas which both can learn and benefit from.
What is needed is cooperation on certain underlying technologies, so they won't be like two separate os'es in practice. A freedesktop that all environments can develop around.
Luckily I really like GNOME, because otherwise I wouldn't have any alternative right now.
Well, It won't last long my friend
read here: http://nat.org/2005/may/#New-Linux-desktop-software
Also, Thunar provides browser-style navigation, which I think is a lot more usable than the spatial mode that Nautilus uses.
Jeff seemed pretty excited about this; I got the feeling Ubuntu would be switching to Thunar pretty shortly! If Red Hat and Sun follow, our hand will be forced.
I whish one day KDE developers decided to split Konqueror in two parts
Konqueror IS ALREADY splitted in two parts. In fact, Konqueror itself is just a "container". You can load a html part inside it, or a file manager part, or both, or even another application (i.e. a pdf reader).
That's right. It's a PITA. It's like "you can choose any color you want, as long as it's black".
C++ might be good. But the license sucks. So 10 * 0 = 0. :-)
Hello Eugenia,
thank you for your explanation why you have a GTK/Gnome sidebar on osnews.com and not a KDE one. I can understand this.
I'm the maintainer of KDE-Apps.org and can provide you a XML feed or a HTML part of the newest KDE apps to list them on OSNews.com. So users can see that OSNews.com is a true independend website. What do you think?
BTW. Thank you for this great site. :-)
Greetings
Frank
First, I said "the KDE one" because we all know Konqueror is bolted to KDE.
And yes, I *tried* to use them alot. Both are slow. Even with all the options turned off (ie: content-generated thumbnails), both are slow.
Both are buggy. Nautilus will always do something you don't expect. I tried all possible configs (list view, icon view): no luck. Sometimes it just wants to render stuff in a weird way. Konqueror has a different problem. Sometimes it just doesn't use my configs and I don't know why. It kinda ignores them. Annoying.
It's really hard to feel comfortable with these two. And both seems to have poor gui code. Looks like both send alot of useless repaint request to keep their window up2date. It's funny to see that once all files are displayed, it will flicker alot because there are tons of queued repaint requests being processed. You can blame X for that issue as well.
These things wouldnt ever happen on MS Windows. Thanks to the awesome Win32 API ;-)
every KDE user is ALWAYS so sure that KDE is the best and that EVERYONE uses KDE and that two desktops are a waste and any poll that doesnt show that is obviously rigged and a total waste of time... SO i think part of the reason I do not care for KDE is due to the attitude of the people that use it... "Hello, like everyone uses KDE so since it is popular I will too" "yea, like only loooosers use gnome" "I havent ever tried it but I KNOW KDE is the best and that is what I will go around saying"
whew, i crack me up
Yep.
IceWM, Blackbox (so Fluxbox), E16, ect > KDE, GNOME, XFCE.
Why? GTK+ and QT suck :] I can't understand why people keep using them. I even prefer living with the ugly Motif. It's ugly but at least it works good and it's fast.
I prefer KDE/Plastik. It's better suited for development. Look at http://kdevelop.org/graphics/screenshots/3.0/full_ide.png
and you'll see what I mean. There are no redundant spacings everywhere as in GNOME/XFCE. I also use IceWM on my Debian unstable.
DISCLAIMER - All this is only my opinion, I'm not trying to step on anyone's toes.
My desktop machine is fast and capable. I want to run a DE that will take advantage of that. I don't see a problem with running a system that looks nice, and provides a rich set of functionality. Personally I think KDE and Keramik looks great, and when I'm in Linux (I dual boot SuSE and XP) that's what I use.
I've used both GNOME and KDE on Mandrake, Connitiva, GEntoo, RedHat and most recently Unbuntu. I had to conclude that I was spending far too much time tweaking, fixing, configuring and compiling to get any real work (or play!) done.
They're both just plain wrong! So wrong, in fact, that I'm back on XP now - at least until my Mac Mini arrives.
windowmaker + GNUstep for me when I am not on my Mac
I've been a Linux user for well, about 13 years now? -from the early 0.9x kernel series- and after having used everything (kde, gnome, debian, mdk, etc..) I stick with kde, not only it has a cleaner UI in my opinion -I don't like the way gnome ui works- but it's also stabler. Anyway I don't think there's a war, nor anything like that going on, it's just that some zealots like to make a little fuss. As for gnome, I think they're retreating, and suffering from several bad decisions in their early development, that has taken them to the point they're now, retreating in user use. I think that maybe for gnome 3 they can recover themselves and get back on the right way, but today? Gnome is a no go for me
"the poll is that rapidly closed. so I guess the results reflects the opinions of the america's only !"
Yeah , I think this was right . And another thing - in USA GNOME is prefered DE and in Europe KDE is the prefered one . These are my thoughts . Don't get me wrong . GNOME is american project , created in America . KDE is created in Europe . So I think GNOME suits to americans' way of thinking and KDE is a reflection of the europian way of thinking . IMHO people at the 2 sides of the Atlantic think at least slightly different . That's why in Europe KDE is prefered DE . It just expresses the europian way of life, thoughts etc . The same could be said for America and GNOME .
All the above : IMHO . Peace .
I've been a Linux user for well, about 13 years now? -from the early 0.9x kernel series- and after having used everything (kde, gnome, debian, mdk, etc..)
hehe never say something like that here or on slashdot :| people will make fun of you and tell you that kde/gnome = DE and debian/mdk = DIST
but since i said it already, no one will do
I think all you people just have too much free time on your hands. Why do people ever care what desktops other people use, other than general curiosity? Why do some people (there aren't that many really, they're just the most verbal ones) promote the desktop environment they use in an almost religious fashion? Why not stop all this hostily and just use whatever tools suit you.
(no, of course I'm not going to spam what I use here)
At dektoplinux.com they had 61% for KDE and 21% for GNOME in their 2004 poll.
However this survey also included distribution preferencies and some other stuff. All in all quite interesting.
look at it: http://desktoplinux.com/articles/AT2127420238.html
debian was on top! BOOM! yea later it slipped after so many debian off shoots cam along and of course it was also showing it age I am sure...
and I smell something fishy over at KDE as well
Yesterday Gnome was winning by quite a large margin (Americas) and overnight KDE almost caught up. I assumed this to mean Europe did get some votes in.
I don't think it has to do with philosophy it has to do with straight out patroitism. Europeans want to make thier mark. Lets not pretend I'm imagining things cause China's Red Flag linux is called that for a reason. There is a bit of pride associated w a distro for many people. And a bit of animosity as well. Do you think Europe is in a hurry to invest in RedHat? I doubt it. They were all going SuSe till they got bought by Novell now the German gov is going Debian.
all the KDE people have way too much time on their hands and do nothing but surf the net to promote their popular KDE
plus i mean america is the innovators, just like gnome is...
boring old KDE
oh, and once again - Can I burn a cd from the KDE filemanager? Right click and resize icons? need i go on... wish I could-gnome needs to ratchet up the innovation again, which I think it will again soon...
Gnome does new cool stuff, KDE takes whatever new cool stuff that people actually like and implemnts it while playing it safe and not going out on a limb... If all we had was KDE we STILL would not have tabs on our browser and so forth....
GNOME=innovation whether good/bad
KDE=good plain pretty popular
GNOME = use it
KDE = configure/look at it
simple as that
BTW. e17 rox :]
Silly theme/color issues aside (both can be made to look and feel almost any way you want), I think there's a number of more practical reasons KDE is superior. The VFS implementation is far more complete and integrated. The UI is customizable to the point that and admin can preload profiles for users that mimic whatever environment they came from with a pretty high degree of fidelity. The locking down of desktop features (so-called "kiosk mode") is very granular and complete. Code reuse is VERY high, which provides consistency and belies more careful attention to software design in KDE. The KDE community also seems to have a more concrete vision and direction -- and development today seems to only be getting faster (while in GNOME, it seems to be slowing). Corporate support is also leaning towards KDE (default environment for SuSe, Mandriva and seen RedHat; most commercial desktop apps targeting one or the other are targetting KDE).
Recent versions of KDE also seem to take up less memory and be more responsive than the recent GNOME releases.
A good example is compare the file open dialog of the two environments. GNOME offers a row of large buttons on top to delete and rename files and create folders. A drop-down to select a parent directory, a panel with directories on the left, and a panel of files on the right, and a text box for the filename at the bottom. Then look at KDE's, there's the same navigation controls you have from the file-manager, a path history, a button to create a folder, a drop down for various views (which can be sorted), a drop down for bookmarks, a pane on the left with configurable bookmarks for directories (configurable for all applications, or per-application; for example, you can add the directory "Downloads from the Web" to the panel and say it only appears in the dialog when opened by the browser), and the open-file dialog accepts URIs (inlcuding SSH, SMB, WebDAV, there's even a 'locate' plugin that allows you to type "locate:myfile.txt" into the location box and all instances of "myfile.txt" on your system will be found).
No, KDE is advancing much quicker than GNOME and is much more complete and consistent.
I guess you don't know much about europe, do you?. Keep in mind that Europe is not ONE country (like USA) but a continent, and I, as a spanish, dont feel a "nationalistic attraction" to, for example, german software. (Just an example, country names are interchangeable).
Anyway, i prefer KDE because its by far the best, in my opinion, but i dont mind if its made in the USA or in Madagascar.
And I couldnt vote, because at 6:00 AM i dont normally visit OSnews. (I do at 9:00 AM, but the poll was already closed by then).
GNOME = use it
KDE = configure/look at it
simple as that
BTW. e17 rox :]
Hmm, there's a contradiction here ;-)
According to what you say, you seem to prefer GNOME over KDE before you can actually use it... not just configure/look at it.
But you're always saying that E17 rox. Well E17 is technically awesome i agree, but its not meant to be "used" yet. Everything is eye candy but half working. Even if you waste alot of time configuring it, it won't do the job. Anyway, it's still at a early stage...and already, i agree with you, E17 will outperform GNOME/KDE
who used tabs first
oh and then it got popular to have tabs so all of a suddent KDE had them... hmmmm
How do I burn a cd in KDE, I know in gnome I dont even have to open anything else... how cool is that
I tried to point out not everyone in Europe thinks that way. But if you can not see favoritism on many occations then you're just not paying attention. I better not get into this anymore than I already have since I have to leave for work. Later.
nothing else . Once somebody wrote : "Right now the penguin is shouting the loudest" . The same could be said for GNOME now .
oh, and once again - Can I burn a cd from the KDE filemanager?
Yes, using the "burn" kio_slave:
http://www-users.york.ac.uk/~jrht100/burn/index.html
If you have K3b installed, you can also burn file/folders by right-clicking on them and selecting the appropriate context menu item.
Both KDE and Gnome are great DEs. I prefer KDE, but I sometimes use Gnome as well. I think it's great that there's a healthy competition between them, as it pushes each project to improve. That way, we all benefit.
WOW, i didnt know that - now that I admitted that I dont know KDE as well as KDE users can the KDE users step forward to state that they dont know Gnome well enough to slam it either....
of course I could change the post to...
Can you right click and resize icons in KDE?
yea, this is a flame thread and not much else so why not have fun with it...
I think they are both about as integrated and bloated as they possibly can be, I (truthfully) prefer the old style one app that does one thing and does it well! I want everything modular so I can pick the pieces I want or dont want and both Gnome and KDE seem to be getting away from this....
I mean XP does about everything you want it to for you... I dont like that, I feel like it bugs the crap out of me. stay out of my way I will click you when I need you, when I click you do not ask me anything, do not start doing anything, when I click close or delete dont keep asking me questions dang it - i am trying to get stuff done! Sadly, I feel like more and more KDE and GNOME are both moving into the "do everything" realm. Dont you hate it when you try to use app XYZ and yet it crashes because of some buggy feature that you do not even use keeps making it crash...
sorry i am rambling-ignore me as usual
KDE has that feature NOW, after gnome innovated and came up with the idea and kde realized it was a popular choice so KDE then implemented it
(sorry this argument just hit me)
I like having two desktops competing too but why KDE must be so Windowish?
Can you right click and resize icons in KDE?
No it doesn't. Can you save to a remote computer via SSH directly in the file dialog in Gnome? :-)
I will admit that I have a love/hate relationship with the new Gnome save/open file dialog (even though I prefer KDE, I use some GTK apps such as Gimp). It's not bad as an original creation, but I still like the KDE dialog (which is a rip-off/improvement of the Windows one).
As far as bloat is concerned, I feel that KDE 3.4 is actually faster than previous versions! This (improving performance) has been consistent for the past few versions of KDE. Can't say about Gnome, it feels a bit slower sometimes but that may be that there's something wrong with my setup.
I use both GNOME and KDE.
I use both because I love konqueror, best Linux file manager IMO. And I like GNOME and its look and feel is very nice, also IMO. But unfortunately they both have their problems. This is where open source kicks ass. They are improving at an incredible rate which will fix all the problems I have with the system very soon.
I'd love to see more C or C++ tools, widgets, apps, etc. They just feel more responsive when compared with python, perl, java, etc.
i dont know that i have tried....
I know that i save remotely to a windows box....
(trying to dodge the jab)
This poll came and went before I ever had a chance to see it. (It's 10:07 am where I am, and it's my first chance to get online - on break at work.)
If I had a vote, I'd probably vote other for IceWM, since it's faster than KDE or Gnome on my old machine. (I may give Xfce another look one of these days, though.) However, since the poll appeared to be slanted toward the "big two" (KDE and Gnome) and didn't care about those running something else (as Eugenia stated earlier), my second choice would have been KDE, since I like it's look better than Gnome. However, I prefer GTK applications (AbiWord, JPilot, etc.) for the most part.
Eugenia said she wanted to learn what people were using, but apparently only if they rand KDE or Gnome. It also seems that six hours isn't enough time to learn much of anything in that regard.
Moderate away. . .
walt_huntsman [at] myrealbox [dot] com
do you honestly think anyone reads a flame war and that it in any way hurts/helps either DE...please
what, I CAN right click and resize icons... neat feature i think
This poll was supposed to be like an American election. Don't even show all the third party candidates or give an option for the desktop I run that has both KDE and GNOME running at the same time.
Its meant to start a flame war, a two sided argument between political parties that reenforces groupthink and lack in intelligent discussion.
But I bet it generates a lot of page hits.
Certainly not scientific or of any statistical significance whatsoever.
geez I would think that if osnews cannot do anything right then you'll would simply leave and quite posting how terrible it is...
QT
so KDE
GTK
so GNOME
so finally, when I'm not running Windows XP/2003 (that is far superior than anything else for desktop (my opinion)), I try to use native, Motif and GNUstep stuff.
Using Gnome and/or KDE is a waste of time. It proves that you're addicted/owned by a religion not by common sense.
Both are such garbage...
Well, It won't last long my friend
read here: http://nat.org/2005/may/#New-Linux-desktop-software
Well no, I actually have no worries that this prototype thingy will ever replace Nautilus. Not sure what Nat has been smoking. I have a lot of respect for Ximian, but I wouldn't want them to design my desktop. As long as Red Hat has sane ideas, life is good.
I wouldn't mind the Nautilus browser using that Thunar interface though. Everything is better than the explorer-like web browser interface. Column-view might be a good idea for it, too. I'm not at all against browser-like tools, but there should also always be a direct representation of a folder, without going through another application. Use a browser when you want to, not because you have to.
i use to think that gtk were so much fastter to start up than QT apps and it may be true but I found out most QT apps check the network and so forth before starting and that introduces a little lag... But the most recent version of KDE i tried was awful quick...
I just think the worst thing you can do is run full blown gnome and try to pull up a QT app or vice versa, at least it use to be dog slow either way...
i think my vote goes to icewm
>I'm the maintainer of KDE-Apps.org and can provide
>you a XML feed or a HTML part of the
>newest KDE apps to list them on OSNews.com.
Thanks for the offer but we don't use feeds from external sources. We only provide links/feeds to our own sites. It is not about being indepentant (as I said earlier, no one from osnews uses gnome, not even myself anymore), it's just that we HAPPEN to have gnomefiles.org (created at a time that we felt that the site was needed by its community, so we jumped in the business) and so we HAVE to promote that SITE in one way or another (it's already there, we have to do something with it). Besides, we don't have vertical space to put one more sidebar in a way that will still look balanced.
what about mezzo just being a window or a "app" if you will, and you could have multiple instances of it...
or maybe integrate all desktop "features" into every active window? sort of a - i can go anywhere from here without having to click thru something else? a program menu that drops down at the corner of every window a filemanger liting that drops down at the other corner of every window... and so on...
you dont have to navigate anything, everything is accesible from anywhere... whew that might be difficult to implemnt..
I disagree. I use both Windows and Linux/KDE, and in my humble opinion KDE is a far superior desktop than Windows. Nothing religious about it, simple personal preferences.
But then again, you were just trolling, weren't you...
I didn't have the chanse to vote, I would voted for GNOME anyway.
Great pool, far more realistic than others where are only for Geeks (more geeks that the ones reading OSNEWS)
Thank you.
Can you save to a remote computer via SSH directly in the file dialog in Gnome?
Actually, you can. Try Ctrl+L.
Bullshit. You can make KDE look just like OS X if you know how. You could also make it look just like Gnome if you're that big of a Gnome freak. It has more versatility in that regard then Gnome whichs pretty much only looks one way.
Actually, you can. Try Ctrl+L.
At the Save dialog? Cool.
While it was certainly warranted, there's nonetheless something vaguely disturbing about the management of a high-profile, polished, professional website referring to anyone as a "flat-out idiot"...
oh, and once again - Can I burn a cd from the KDE filemanager? Right click and resize icons? need i go on... wish I could-gnome needs to ratchet up the innovation again, which I think it will again soon...
actually you can. There is a kioslave for burning. Never used it tho.
As for resizing the icons you can increase the size of all icons. I did noticed that in gnome you could change the size of 1 icon but.. so what?
about the fact i couldn't vote.
aside from that, nice flamewar!
lets add a bit.
compare gnome and KDE to windows - KDE is windows on stereoids. much more features, mostly easier to use, more consistent and generally more responsive (altough, in a other way).
then gnome - well. its different from windows. a bit cleaner. maybe faster. well, that's about it, i guess.
ok, gets the job done. but xfce does so, too. and icewm. i don't see much of an advantage using gnome over xfce. i DO see an advantage of using KDE over xfce - it is FAR more powerfull, integrated, consistent AND easy to use.
>high-profile, polished, professional website
High profile yes. Polished maybe. Professional? Not where I am standing. OSNews is just a HOBBY. It barely pays for its hosting AFAIK, and I personally don't see a dime of it anyway. It's a good way to spend my time IMHO. I am passionate about it, but that's where it stops. It ain't and will never be CNN.
The people who make out their conclusions about us without making some research first or emailing us --and they do that often, enough to piss us off or make us laugh at their face--, *are* flat out idiots. They see the gnomefiles.org sidebar (which I explained earlier why it's there) and sudenly we are "pro gnome" even if none of us use it. Bah. I personally load Gnome just once per month these days (I use WindowMaker when on Unix, I mostly use XP or OSX), enough to take a screenshot from it for the european magazine I am writing for, when needed.
whatever you say eugenia, next time put it up 5 minutes only.
don't do pools if you can even let it one day; because NOT EVERYONE has a chance to vote, even a single, when you're only up the very right hours other people sleep.
It's just plain stupid.
Yeah, you can moderate this comment but it's still truth.
If pools should be stopped then, yes, they should, because they're as miss representative as if it were people cheating the results. (and no, i don't care if the results is gnome winning or kde or anything, i really talk in general for future pools)
You should do a new pole on how many gnome users use ubuntu.
you say
"Gnome whichs pretty much only looks one way"
and with your own words prove you havent used gnome very much!
:)
too funny
--------
and eugenia some of us do appreciate you.... even if we are pain in the %^&@ss
--------
as i said earlier if you increase the size of your icons that you use regularly and shrink the others you will have to do a lot less glancing... of course as I also said kde vs gnome is mostly a moot point especially with each new release of both....
"now that I admitted that I dont know KDE as well as KDE users can the KDE users step forward to state that they dont know Gnome as well as gnome users...."
Gnome users would settle for a draw but KDE users would NEVER settle for a tie because they KNOW KDE is the greatest
Point#1: All you gnome lovers throw the word "usability" at others just because its the latest buzzword. Nothing more. Just like Political Correctness (which stinks higher than h311).
Point#2: GOME is more a copy of MacOS than KDE is of Windows. And Guess what? KDE can be made to look entirely unlike windows. Now, try making GNOME unlike MAcOS; its not possible. So stop whinging about KDE being a clone of Windows.
Point#3: With an outdated library like GTK(add as many plusses as you want), its only possible to do so much. That's why all of you are pointing out the minimalism as the next big thing. When was minimalism the cornerstone of open-source? Why not let the end-user decide what options he/she wants in there?
Point#4: GNOME's attitude to end-users so much like Microsoft's that I am seriously beginning to think GNOME is a MS-sponspored project (well maybe not sponsored, but definitely supported). Not to mention the registry look-and-feel alike gconf!
please, get a life.
a request to everyone out there: if you ever see me behave in such a stupid manner, please shoot me in the neck
Who cares about what he says anymore?
The guy has loss all credibility.
Point#1: usability and productivity is the main goal of any environment IMO
Point#2: It is similar to MacOS and that is a good thing Yes, Gnome can look like different in so many ways, ever tried the smokey blue theme, what about geramik oh for lords sake what about bluecurve? uh excuse me your ignorance is hanging out please put it back as it is so offensive:)
Point#3: outdated? aint even going to bother with this i mean Java looks like the old tcl/tk... (sorry java guys)
Point#4: GNOME's has some "fractoring" problems that I think they will finally agree to disagree and realize the point is gnome and users and they will get back to innovating
I missed my chance to vote, I agree with some posters though that this site shows a definite preference to Gnome most of the time so the results will of course swing in its favour.
For what its worth I would have voted for KDE, I have tried a number of Window managers and desktop environments including KDE and Gnome and I just happen to like KDE the most.
Hmm what kind of poll was this ? Lasted only for some hours and only then when it's day in USA and night in Europe ? Of course this site has a preference towards GNOME and bad journalism and misleading articles always makes this look through tough. No chance for me to vote and of course the vote got closed when GNOME was in front.
A good polls should at least be given a few days so other readers have the ability to poll too. I think a realistic poll would at least last a few days.
Though even if GNOME is the prefered desktop, it's a difference whether it's also a good desktop and I doubt so. Looking at these small movies:
Linux: http://rapidshare.de/files/2066703/gnome-the-movie.avi.gz.html
Windows:
http://rapidshare.de/files/2067142/gnome.zip.html
Make me skeptical, apart from the crashes which seem to be a problem for itself, it otoh seem to have other architectual and usability issues when looking closer at the movies (Dialogs missized, Different Toolbars, Different Statusbars, Wrong padding of Buttons). It seems that enforcing the HIG on all GNOME applications so far have been a huge flop. A bunch of stuff has been fixed towards the HIG but still someone fixes the stuff and then someone else seem to break things again afterwards, which can be really frustrating. The apps don't follow a general styling guide and volunteer sparetime experts who work on the usability stuff seem to have a wrong understanding of usability and absolutely no understanding of aesthetics of applications.
Apart from all the bottom core issues there are still a lot of applications missing to get serious business work done. There is basicly nothing for GNOME except mediaplayers, mono experimental applications or real things for the business and science area. Only home user entertainment is covered here but for the business and science there is nothing.
Ok I know everything is explainable why GNOME has the issues and everyone would mention howto fix them etc. but then look over at KDE the same amount of developers and yet they seem to be able to handle the stuff better.
3 375 respondents to a poll found that 39% referred Gnome. This does not make Gnome the most popular manager nor should anyone have interpreted it as doing so.
I just did every thing that guy does in the clip and except for the menu icons with/without text bug in easytag I can't reproduce those problem.
explorer. Works pretty good. Nice copy-paste, most apps look the same, good drag and drop support.
Linux is too difficult for me!
> I just did every thing that guy does in the clip and
> except for the menu icons with/without text bug in
> easytag I can't reproduce those problem.
No, you did not. You are an ignorant that's all, you are one of those people who defend GNOME for the sake of it because you as well as the developers can't stand criticism and so try to shut other peoples comments down by responding like you did.
The Toolbar issues are there, regardless if CVS or Stable GNOME, regardless if UBUNTU or Coca Cola Distribution. It's nothing that would have changed over night because it's a code issues from the applications itself. If an application has chosen to use BonoboUI over GTK+ for it's Window then it's clear that it behaves differently. Nothing you could fix with a few lines of code. This mostly requires huge code refactoring.
The Nautilus issue is there, regardless if you use CVS or Ubuntu or whatever, go to ftp.gnu.org and try downloading the entire "gnu" directory. You can wait nearly 10 mins before it starts doing anything. And Nautilus in this regard was far worse in the past due to heavily broken FTP gnome-vfs library.
Sure the GNOME applications crashing was a bit extreme but if you would understand the issue rather than looking at the symptom then you need to understand that this happens because those who work on the GNOME components inside CVS doesn't do proper checking of what they commit and it's rarely possible to compile stuff from CVS in a flow without manual tweaking there and here because the one developer uses Red Hat, the other Ubuntu, the other Debian, another Novell Desktop and yet again others SUN's Java Desktop or whatever. Then there are also cross versions of GNOME that people keep using while hacking on this one only CVS HEAD module. I know people who run GNOME 2.6 and work on a exactly one CVS module to improve it. Ignoring the fact that with 2.10 a lot of stuff might have been changed again and so the parts they changed in HEAD may work with 2.6 but not with 2.10 again.
Do you understand at least in a minimal way what I am trying to explain here ? I do hope so.
The problems with the different Windowing libraries as well as Toolbar issues could have easily been avoided if there was some hacked together document for starters, coders or porters so they understand what they should use and what not. But since now not even die hard core developers know what actually to use. They keep using what's there to solve the problem of the application but then causing new problems because they application works quite disharmonic with the rest of the Desktop Environment.
The problem with the Printing Interface is no banal thing either. If I am not able to print a current page that I am viewing then I am not able to use the application correctly to get work done. This is no mistake of the libgnomeprint and libgnomeprintui library, this is a mistake of the application developer for not having any guidelines howto do it properly.
The HIG which everyone hypes high, I bet even half of you in best have spent time reading it. The version 2.0 of it still has plenty of contradicting parts in it such as the Toolbar aspect where in the top paragraph it's highly recommended that the application SHOULD behave like other applications and then alter on it's written that an application should offer the ability to change Toolbar items (which is the contradiction since it doesn't make the application behave similar like others, since you can't change the Toolbars of the majority of currently existing applications. It should be asked whether it wouldn't make more sense to bring the Toolbareditor inside GTK+ as part of the API so it gets inherit by all applications at the same time).
You people refer to 'integrate' with GNOME all the time but you seem to have a doubtable understanding of integration. An integration means to have something work seamlessly together with the other parts of the desktop. If you integrate a greek or turk in a different new country then you want him to behave, act, do, eat, drink and whatever like the people doing in this country. Integration doesn't mean that you integrate some bulky stuff in exactly one application or hack it in so it only works with that one and not the rest. So if you hack up a Toolbar editor which only works in Epiphany or Evince then it's no integration. It's a hack.
Then again, if people would give the stuff they work on some more time. Not everyone is working on CVS as we speak. They usually work offline on a patch and commit it to CVS once it gets some shape and was tested to work. That's how KDE people seem to be doing it. They work on something, it works, it gets commited. As soon as someone shouts out "hey, you broke it" it gets fixed as they speak. On GNOME we usually have people who asume stuff. You read in changelogs comments like "This hopefully fixes some memoryleaks" .... Hopefully ? Either you know it or you don't but don't make the CVS become an experiment .... GNOME as long as I spent my time with it always had a policy which said "GNOME from CVS should be kept compilable and problems should if possible get fixed". But this ain't the case anymore, people keep using distros to hack on GNOME, others use JHBuild or another compiling solution and forget to test it exessively. Recently someone has closed one of my bugs because an API reference couldn't be build (for several GNOME modules) after replying to him and telling him to --enable-gtk-doc he realized that I was right and reopened the bugs again. Nobody seem to test GNOME or give it the right love anymore. GNOME is also not being developed on or rarely getting any contributions, some packages in CVS are only version bumps, others get some minor love but all in all it's quite a poor shape (How do I know this ? I checkout/update CVS for the past 6 years on a daily basis now). Scrollkeeper from CVS still broken, documents missing, po files missing, autogen.sh files broken (if you use new gnu-core-utils). Stuff reported by me months ago (see bugtracker) and still no one gives a flying damn for it.
Ok you can say use a distro but this is not the point, specially not if you want to work ON improving GNOME rather than working with GNOME (if this was ever possible). Then you need at least convince a lot of people to keep their junk right and this is impossible at the moment. KDE is doing far better in this regard if something fails then it's usually fixed within 24hrs. I don't want to sound like a KDE fanboy here but I find it quite ignorant for GNOME followers to do like there aren't any issues with GNOME and as if everything is right and shiny....
- It's not!
You again! I thought we discussed the toolbar issue and you conceded you were just being anal. Show me one major desktop environment with consistent toolbars, and it will be my pleasure to discredit it. Go ahead! Oh and by the way, are you really oGALAXYo, the GNOME hater?
which highlights my point about one tool for one job and doing it well....
open a ftp client and go to work if you want to ftp....
will have to try that out though... are those links working because I cannot find anything
"Preparing copy" seems to me a sufficient feedback
and you're one of the worst trolls and FUD-spreaders I ever read here. Two comments of hundreds of words and you never pointed out that actually nautilus ftp browsing works, even if immature, until I made some screenshots. you insinued that nautilus is broken and that gnome is broken, and you used false examples: easytag is not a gnome application, is a gtk2 application who doesn't depend on gnome libraries. does valknut (qt application) use kde themes? no
and please, it is useless that you try to make all those meaningless "arguments" on gnome CVS, you're just a troll, a liar and you don't deserve attention.
and btw, I'm no gnome fanboy, most of the time I use xfce 4.2
PS. if you can call me ignorant, and tell me that I'm a liar, I see no problem if I call you an asshole, because this is what you are.
...does valknut (qt application) use kde themes? no
I hate to be nitpicky but despite Valknut (my favorite P2P client at the moment) not being a KDE application it CAN use the KDE theme. It just don't do it by default but like most QT applications, you can make it use any one of the themes available to KDE.
Right know I'm using High Performance Liquid + Baghira window decorators and changed Valknut theme and fonts to match this theme. Looks lovely... :-P
Cheers
Mr. G<name protected> from italy seem to have a funny day today and it kicks ass how he insults people.
can you describe for me what you think is broke in gnome? i am personally confused...
as far as toolbars in apps, i expect different toolbars in different apps... now a consistant appearance is nice to some people but I prefer different so it is not so monotonous and boring.....
you expect the same toolbar that is in gedit as in Dia ????
as i said please enlighten me cause i am confused....
stop tell me liar: all the "customization" is clearlooks theme (I use it in xfce too), flat-blue icons (installed by default by gnome), 14 buttons on the panel and a wallpaper. 10 minutes of work. want to see my xfce 4.2 desktop? every entry in the menus (menus detached to make you see them all) is hand-made.
http://img79.echo.cx/img79/8467/schermata4wt.png
abiword and gnumeric ARE NOT gnome apps (gnome is optional) and evince is alpha software... don't take alpha software, not yet released in gnome, as an example of gnome desktop
I think some people need to go outside.
Giacomo listen, you clearly understand what I mean, so stop your ramblings. And stop your sophistry.
Another religous war about bloody SOFTWARE! not to mention they're both pieces of linux software, mind you, but that doesn't seem to matter to these zealots. By the way, zealot is a bad word in this case.
> as far as toolbars in apps, i expect different toolbars
> in different apps... now a consistant appearance is nice
> to some people but I prefer different so it is not so
> monotonous and boring.....
I am not refering to the Elements on the Toolbar (like New, Open, Save, Zoom, Print, Left, Right, Up). I am refering to the Toolbar itself as in code.
GNOME as Desktop Environment and applications using the GNOME Desktop Environment as base for their beings should clearly follow some sort of styling guide. The attempt of all the usability studies as well as the HIG and other researches is, to offer people a coherent Desktop experience that is (for example) if a user configures:
'I want to see Icons only on my Toolbar'
That he gets Icons only in his toolbar, and when he believes he wants to have Text Besides Icons that he gets Text Besides his Icons. GNOME is still stuck for unknown reason in this blatant deprecation process that in my opinion is a crawling process. There are different libraries for ancient reasons still inside GNOME that gives developers the ability to create a Window, Toolbar, Menu and other stuff which have issues to work correctly with the other ways of creating a Window, Toolbar or Menu.
So if you have say 3-4 different libaries offering you 3-4 different ways of creating a Window, Toolbar and Menu and all of them look, behave and work differently then you have a problem. As you can see in the video it clearly shows that GNUMERIC as well as ABIWORD (both compiled with GNOME support in mind) seem to not follow the Toolbar change as they should.
This is annoying and not correct behavior. GNOME is going away from using the other libaries because of them being deprecated and slowly starts imigrating to GTK+ only for doing Window, Toolbars and Menus which of course is the right approach and hopefully will give all applications one day a consistent Window, one Window model, one Toolbar Model and one Menu model. Though unfortunately nobody of the maintainers who control and maintain a certain package inside GNOME cvs seem to be doing anything to achive the goal. While the GNOME 2.x series still keep API compatibility there is still no reason to start going this approach to convert all the applications over.
I mean, GNOME could be a very nice and really polished Desktop Environment but the work seem to be totally stagnating. For me the process of getting rid of deprecated code and broken stuff is not going on fast enough. You need to wait weeks, months until some small bits seem to change there and here and some maintainers don't care much enough and don't do anything at all, which would require the question whether it would be better for him to hand his package over to someone else who has more skills and more willing to actually do the necessary changes.
Waiting for GNOME 3 until something really changes is imo too late. Too late why ? Because people still keep using the deprecated stuff to write new applications and we end up in exactly this stuff. A lot of people hacking their small applications and everything looks, acts and behaves different.
If it comes on defending GNOME then everyone starts naming applications such as Abiword, Gnumeric, and so on.. But as soon as it starts to come towards criticism why the application Abiword misbehaves in GNOME then the same people crawl out of their dark chambers and say 'Abiword is no GNOME application'... Somehow people need to get hit with a cluestick sometimes....