The true reason for this article is to point out some sensitive points and to start a discussion. Hopefully, this discussion will produce some useful outcome and if some people in the Linux community are willing to listen to them, I would already be very enthusiastic. Let's start, shall we?
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Why is it OSnews feels a need to bring this topic out every other week.
It is a lame topic that only results in flamewars.
and at that, it truely is an uninteresting topic because anyone that is actually doing the work on linux, isnt reading what anyone has to say here to begin with.
please stop with the constant "linux onthe desktop" bullshit.
it is a waste of time
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Why is it OSnews feels a need to bring this topic out every other week.
Because readers keep sending them in. OSNews is about open-nes, everyone can write an article and if the quality isn't too bad, it goes up (however, we do try to *not* make humungous errors like osViews has on a regular basis). It's something that I value a great deal. *Everyone* should be able to express his or her opinion; it's part of who I am, and before me, part of who Eugenia is. We don't reject articles simply because we don't agree with them or because we find the topic tiresome or uninteresting.
You always have the freedom to:
1) not read articles/comment on articles you don't find interesting;
2) write an article yourself;
3) both of the above.
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> You always have the freedom to:
>
> 1) not read articles/comment on articles you don't
> find interesting;
> 2) write an article yourself;
> 3) both of the above.
Yeah, but this is probably coming from a guy whose time is obviously too precious to write an article. Hell, his time is too precious to skip an article he doesn't like.
One must admire his frugality with respect to time management.
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who are the authors of "is linux ready for the desktop" articles trying to convince?
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Nobody. They're for the most part GUI fanboys who bet on the wrong OS/Technology. You see, most of the people who keep on harping about the Linux Desktop are people who can't deal with the fact that Linux is growing and thriving while not adopting the latest and greatest in "Useability Research" while OS's and computers like Amiga,BE,OS/2,Atari ST and so forth are either footnotes or are on their way to becoming footnotes in computer history despite their "critically acclaimed "User Interfaces"
Remember, most of the people writing and posting here articles about the "Linux Desktop" here on OSNews *WERE NEVER LINUX SUPPORTERS TO BEGIN WITH* Eugina is a perfect example of this. She was a big BE fangirl.
And like most of the BE fanclub she ran around proclaiming to the world how Linux wouldn't really amount to anything and that Linux developers the would over would abandon Linux in favor of the BE platform once they realized Linux wouldn't amount to anything.
When that didn't happen they started heming and hawing about how Linux developers would abandon Linux in favor of OSX.
When *THAT* didn't happen they started cranking out the articles you see now proclaiming their "LOVE" of the "Linux Desktop"
Of course the Linux base never really paid any serious attention to what the Amiga,BE and Mac crowd were saying about them then and still aren't doing so now.
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I agree with the first two posts. This topic comes up too often and this one just reiterates what's been said a thousand times before.
I think if we brought up the topic once a year that would be enough time to allow progress to have occured to actually have something to discuss.
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As this article is pretty long I'll comment while I read along.
"Well, for some reason, the largest amount of the Linux community still believes that people actually intend to struggle their way through a hefty manual to get the thing installed and configured as they wish."
Hm, if that's the way the article is going to continue it isn't really off for a good start. How you can claim to know what the largest part of the Linux community thinks is beyond me, as is what this community actually is supposed to be.
"And for some reason, the entire Linux community seems to hide themselves behind the idea that one needs to "grow into" a distro."
Another unfounded adhominem against the oh so evil community. I hope this article will get better...
"But then, why is it that operating systems like OS X and Windows are so much more suited for end users?"
Are they? You sure might hold this opinion, but you should at least try to argue it, not just make yet another unfounded assumption.
"The reason why Windows has such a neat distribution of this knowledge pyramid as I will call it from now on, is because of historical reasons. It has nothing to do with a better system than the others on the market. It has to do with power, and widespread usage. You may love this, you may hate this, you may love to hate this, but the fact remains. Windows is powerful, and it will remain so for a long time to come."
Wow, now he's actually starting to make sense here.
"If you believe otherwise, you are most likely one of those stubborn geeks who has not yet found the virtue of self-criticism. Please, for once and for all, stop believing you and only you are right, because you are not."
Only to destroy the first good impression I had by this kind of drivel.
Ok, we are now two pages into the article and the only thing that made any sense was the insight that one of Windows major strenghts is its market share. Wow.
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This is exactly what the author is talking about!!
Do you think a company would be able to survive with this attitude (open source, closed mind)?
Will Linux? Not in my business - That's why I hire employees with a different attitude than yours!!!
Now analyze that!!!
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> This is exactly what the author is talking about!!
>
> Do you think a company would be able to survive with
> this attitude (open source, closed mind)?
> Will Linux? Not in my business - That's why I hire
> employees with a different attitude than yours!!!
You might want to do what Microsoft does: run /FreeBSD/ on all their critical servers.
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I agree completely, the article started of with some promise but then just descended into a series of cliches, over generalizations and outright insults of anyone enthusiastic about Linux. The following statement is quite an amusing accusation of the authors own statement:
"If you believe otherwise, you are most likely one of those stubborn geeks...
...Please, for once and for all, stop believing you and only you are right"
The author might as well be writing about himself there.
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and ask *why* everyone wants the notion of Linux for the Desktop. Everyone seems overly eager to push this topic, but no one has a really good reason why.
I could see the "if more people used it, drivers would be supported by major vendors", but doesn't that go against *Free* if it isn't open source (and you can bet it won't be)?
I see the point of wanting to be part of something successful, but isn't that just a bit silly? It seems to be perfect for all the fans of it already. Why push it on to grandma?
What I don't see is the argument that everyone seems to be happy to use blindly. "It is better than Windows." I'm not going to touch this one, but let's see there is room for argument.
Point is, Linux will be what it will be. No series of articles is going to push it to the desktop or spur crazy development to get it there.
I know this idea isn't going to go away, but please come up with a reason why it should be the hot topic. I'm still searching for one.
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cujo wrote: and ask *why* everyone wants the notion of Linux for the Desktop. Everyone seems overly eager to push this topic, but no one has a really good reason why.
Maybe this is not what you'd call a good reason: Somebody else commented that the origin of Microsoft's market share was basically Microsoft's market share. Turn this around and you'll find that Linux's small market share might be the origin of an even smaller market share in the future. You only need to stop the hype around Linux.
Others may respond that Linux is successful on servers and will ever be. I don't buy that argument: You can easily replace a few servers when the alternative would be to replace a few hundred clients.
With less desktop users, you will have probably less developers. Even if you're a developer, I doubt that you'd be able to code all you need yourself -- not because of missing knowledge but because of missing time.
With less desktop users, and less server deployments, there will be less Linux related jobs. You may not mind about it, but maybe others do.
However, you're basically right: Articles about reasons for the slow adoption of Linux on desktops won't change the situation!
Maybe, such articles should be viewed as signals of a large demand. Being rather new to Linux, I can still recall some frustration about GNU/Linux developers doing great things on the one hand while obviously bad things (from a switcher's point of view) on the other.
Being a little bit more experienced now, the only thing that is going the change this is money, IMHO. This, however, is a tricky business, and other's have already failed to implement a solution. Meanwhile, we're going to 'enjoy' a few more articles about the topic, I guess. 
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> I see the point of wanting to be part of something
> successful, but isn't that just a bit silly? It
> seems to be perfect for all the fans of it already. > Why push it on to grandma?
Because, otherwise, there will always be the threat of things like software patents. The EU measure was bitchslapped...quite thoroughly I might add, but this is always on the horizon.
So, first off, we need to defend what's ours. By becoming larger, this kind of crap will not fly. Vital projects like MPlayer will not be crushed. If they want to ruin our shit, they grant the same right to us.
Why doesn't anyone talk about that? We (OSS camp) are not the wolves in sheeps' skin and I though this was already plain to see who is.
Second off, there's a difference between using certain software at home and using it at work. As a youth involved in technology, I was invited to a seminar on the same at a local business. I was talking about OSes and the guy said..."We kind of sold out" with a sheepish grin, in reference to his day to day use of Windos. He then compared it to the "VHS vs. Betamax" era.
I did not find this funny. In fact, I was nothing less than incensed. "Leave me out of your horsesh*t." I was very pleased to see, in a business magazine, an article on the burgeoning CIS industry in South Asia, where Indian workers were clearly depicted using Red Hat Linux. I could see the familiar interface in the pictures. http://thelinuxlink.net/~fingolfin/indiaRedHat.jpeg
I met a businessman from India name of Uprenda; he said Linux was really taking off. I am moving to Asia after college where, hopefully, I can get a job where I do not have to put up with Windows garbage. This field is fortunately burgeoning over there.
I don't know if I'm the only one, but technology is my life and I think Windows is soul-crashing garbage. It has no redeeming value in my eyes. I couldn't stand to be reduced to a glorified data entry clerk babysitting Windows every day. I'm not a sellout. Period. And if I want something real bad I will work that hard for it. I want to avoid Windows even more than I want to avoid having a white wife. That's quite a substantial compulsion. 
Third, the encroachments on privacy that will apparently be introduced into Longhorn are frankly disturbing. Such as the keystroke logger, which Microsoft assures us will be secure...hm, yeah...given their track record with security (BILLIONS of dollars lost to viri in the past decade), methinks this does not bode well. Where is this leading us?
Ideas all have their time. Some must stay, others must go. Windows fits into that latter category. How many large-scale headaches must we tolerate before we realise we've paid more than enough for the mess it's left behind?
Linux is not the Betamax of OS technology. It is the analogy to the DVD and, hopefully, it will kick VHS' ass from Ayodhya to Ayutthaya.
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But I don't think there is any point in debating the subject. It's up to the people who do Linux desktop distros to resolve these obvious issues and history has shown they are unwilling/unable to do so.
Perhaps it is that we are seeing all the dev branches of what might become the future reference Linux distro ? But there is no saying which it will be....
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I run Linux on my desktop and know many others who do the same. Your Grandmother might not be able to get /dev/esoteric to work under LFS, but why should she? On Windows it would have been configured out of the box. Do you see dozens of "Is Windows Ready for the Desktop?" articles? It certainly wasn't ready for mine.
This article, along with several others, complained that a large part of the linux community expects users to read through man pages to get things working. Funnily enough, this happens in Gentoo, Slackware and LFS communities, not in response to your average newbie asking questions about Ubuntu. These aren't the people pushing Linux on the desktop - it works for them and their computer literate associates and they're quite happy with that. Is Windows not ready for the desktop just because your local NT admin is sick of "lusers" messing up his perfectly configured machines?
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This article, along with several others, complained that a large part of the linux community expects users to read through man pages to get things working. Funnily enough, this happens in Gentoo, Slackware and LFS communities, not in response to your average newbie asking questions about Ubuntu.
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You have to understand something. There's a *WHOLE* history here that either the people creating these Linux Desktop "articles" either don't know about or are choosing to ignore.
It basically goes back to the early/mid 80's-basically around to the time of the orginal Mac,Amiga and Atari ST computers.
Basically a major rift developed between people who were trying to shove the GUI interface onto every and anything and people who prefered using the CLI interface for the most part. There were and still are some *VERY* hard feelings over this particular issue.
The two camps went their seperate ways, with the GUI camp migrating towards Windows and the Mac, and the CLI
camp developing Linux and the BSD's.
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> The two camps went their seperate ways, with the GUI > camp migrating towards Windows and the Mac, and the > CLI camp developing Linux and the BSD's.
Funny. Most Linux users I know are Windows converts. Some old-school Unix, but not much. I personally wasn't ALIVE in the "early-to-mid 80s".
Which certainly casts a shadow of doubt on your theory about the origin of a rift. Most of the time you can avoid the CLI on Linux, but it sure helps. I have some linux-using friends who haven't a CLUE what to do on the command line. They're fine and I only have to fix shit every so often, like for something large such as a modem driver. Get a PCI modem I say...it's better for performance anyways.
The same can be said about Windoze; nothing makes the Registry more user-friendly than a CLI. And there are instances where an expert must step in to fix things. I know Windoze has f*cked up at my school plenty of times and I ended up fixing it.
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> I run Linux on my desktop and know many others who do
> the same. Your Grandmother might not be able to get
> /dev/esoteric to work under LFS, but why should she? On > Windows it would have been configured out of the box.
Maybe. Maybe not. I have a Windoze box that can't seem to recognize a Goddamn USB keyfob. And unlike Linux, I will probably have to dig through some registry rigamarole to get to it. Under Linux I would have to edit a text file. The worst it could possibly get it is...GASP...an XML file.
Well, back to VL5 RC 2.
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Yet, with all these wonderful assets, Linux does not manage to become commonplace in the average household. Mind you, I'm not talking about servers or geeks here. Nor am I talking about the family of some geek. Very often, you will find that his parents, his grandparents and a lot more of his relatives use Linux because he single-handedly installs, updates and manages them. No, I'm talking about the average human being, with little to no computer experience. Why is it that he cannot get the hang of Linux on the desktop?
The article is well written and thought out -- but I feel it's "thought out" from a fairly bad vantage point. Right from the get go, the author assumes "normal users" are looking for operating system (and btw, i'm no GNU zealot, but when you're writing a OS view article, Linux really is just the kernel -- if you're talking about KDE or GNOME or use of the CLI, you gotta say so).
"Normal users" aren't looking (or shopping) for operating systems -- they are shopping for computers. People don't go out and but Windows or OS X -- they go out and buy a Dell, or an Apple, or a Gateway, etc etc.
"Normal users" don't install operating systems, it's that simple. Once someone decides to try out something new then they are no longer "normal." For that matter, OS X users aren't "normal" -- they are arguably more "normal" than GNU/Linux distro using people.
"Normal users," just like everyone else, need to have an open mind when searching for the tools they need to do the tasks they want to do. If it's play online 3D games, well, get a PC with Windows. Do it. If your needs extend beyond that you need to survey what is available to you. Don't people do this with everything else? How do people choose lunch? cars? books? movies?
All these articles are so completely askew from the "real world." *** Who cares if someone else sees you as a "normal" user or a "power" user or a "developer" ***. Can you get your job done effectively with the tools you use? Hrm? There you go, if you've really asked yourself that, then you're either running with the right tools or your not.
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I think you've hit the nail on the head. Everybody uses Windows because that's what came on everybody's computers. Apple has made their market by being cooler and more secure than Windows but still compatible (especially with MS Office for OS X). Linux has made their market by being a hobbiest OS and now a server OS. Don't get me wrong, I think Linux is great. I've been using Xandros at work for about 6 months now and it works extremely well. However, I'm not an average user. My experience with average users is as follows:
User 1: Not very computer literate but needs to upgrade ancient computer. I recommend a Mac. Her kids want a Mac. She decides to get a PC because all of her friends have PCs and she is comfortable with Windows and doesn't want to try anything new.
User 2: Upgrades ancient Win98 box, wants a new OS, doesn't want to pay for Windows XP. Does it run MS Office? No but OpenOffice.org is compatible. Work uses MS Office. Goes out and buys XP.
User 3: How much does MS Office cost? About $379. Can I get it for cheaper? You can get OpenOffice.org for free. Can it read and write MS Office files because work uses MS Office. Yes, just do "save as..." I don't want to have to remember to "save as..." all the time, I'll just buy MS Office.
Perhaps this sounds nutty, but many users aren't that comfortable with computers in the first place and don't want to learn anything more than they absolutely have to. The will willingly pay the MS tax in order to avoid learning something new.
If businesses start using Linux on the desktop, then users will start using Linux on the desktop. It's that simple. Until then, it's mostly for hobbiests.
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We get these articles about once a week, and does it really matter if Linux ever is signficant on "the desktop". It seems like its always the newbies that are fixated on converting everybody. I'll probably always use Linux, windows, and hopefully OSX in a couple years when I can triple boot.
P.S. How about OpenUnix on the desktop instead of linux on the desktop. There is no "linux desktop".
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Moreover, you can have all the eyecandy in the world but If the desktop doesn't feel like a cohesive whole then you always feel something's missing. It seems Gnome 3.0 (Project Topaz) - and maybe KDE 4.0 ? - will address these issues such as making everything in the desktop a first-class citizen where you can drag and drop anything to the Trash, for example.
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I don't really buy that. How? Certainly, Windows XP apps don't have the kind of unified look GNOME and KDE apps do. I mean, does anybody seriously argue that MS Office, with its tacky blue theme, looks anything like the rest of the OS? Look at something like Fedora. Where is the lack of integration? The apps look similar, the system configuration utilities are all there in GNOME form, etc, etc. What is unintegrated? Sure, you can make it unintegrated, by installing KDE apps or mucking around in the CLI, but why would you want to? Furthermore, you can do that to Windows too. Indeed, nearly all Windows users run an unintegrated desktop, since they run MS Office.
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Ok how well ICQLite, the new msn messenger, windows media player to name few integrate into XP? Do they look the same, feel the same as the rest of windows?
Does double clicking on mp3 file in linux produce much different result than on XP? Can you do copy/paste between apps in Linux?
Corel uses different methods for accessing fonts. File Open/Save dialogs look different in Word and AutoCAD for instance.
By the way what the hell desktop integration means at all?
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"From Windows 95 and onwards, it should be a breeze to configure the system as you want. While not looking as lovely on one version as on the other, the functionality is to be found at about the same place, and one can rather quickly set everything to his preferences."
Huh? This is simply not true. I know a lot of people who had problems finding the stuff they were used to after switching to XP.
"One has to admit that a family license of OS X (which allows you to install OS X on 3 computers) sounds a lot more attractive than Windows XP Home edition that you can install on a single computer. Oh, and yeah, they both sell for about the same price."
Yep, sounds great, especially when you consider that you also need 3 Macs to run OSX.
"So you just try to struggle your way trough the sometimes way too complex documentation and please, leave the geeks alone. They are evangelising Linux as "almost" ready for the desktop. So please, do not disturb them. Maybe later. But not now."
Sigh, another unfounded and uncalled for adhominem at some "evil" group..
"Well, for end users and disciples, Linux is Linux. Debian, Suse, Gentoo, Ubuntu, Mandrake, Fedora, Vector Linux and so on, they are all just different flavours much like Windows 95 and Windows XP."
But they aren't. I know you tried to prevent this argument by preventive namecalling (oh those evil geeks), however that doesn't invalidate it.
"For some unclear reason, Linux users are in constant conflict with themselves, trying to outperform the others and building a better copy of what they are making. Not only does this waste most valuable time, it also makes that Linux has too little money to do something (however, combined, Linux would be quite wealthy) and that the good programmers are spread out over projects that are making exactly the same thing."
Blah, blah, blah. Yes, if only all would work on my pet project, not something different, the world would be saved...
"Innovation is another thing that Linux lags. Linux is a copy of a lot of other things, all pieced together. This is not immediately something bad. However, it needs to be done right. When you copy, you need to innovate, or at least, make a good copy. It is no use to reinvent the wheel, so don't do it. But don't copy it and think that a square wheel will do the job as well."
Insulting, dumb and unfounded and of course in stark contrast to the authors earlier claim that innovation was taking place.
"For example, look at Abiword, KOffice and OpenOffice. If you throw them all together, you would end up with a more than wonderful package."
Ouch, but it only gets worse.
No, uniting three different apps, that have different purposes and work differently into one up would not lead to something better, but to something horrible.
Ok, now we are at the end of the fourth page and there still isn't anything resembling a well thought out argument (apart from Windows having a hughe market share, doh).
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These articles will keep coming because linux for the non-techical user is still a way off.
It's got nothing to do with linux,
The desktop enviroments are wonderful.
The applications are great.
There should be no need for consistance between distros.
(People need to be told that 'Ubuntu is an OS that is fairly compatible with Fedora but they are not the same and should therefore should be regarded as different OSs by non-technical users.)
The main problem with desktop linux is drivers.
If I go out and buy a digital camera I can be sure that it will work with windows without a problem, I can't say the same about linux.
This won't change until vendors open source their drivers (I've no idea why they don't, It seems insane not to)
OSX doesn't have this driver problem because any hardware running on it is generally made by apple anyway.
- Jessta
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Actually I have found the opposite to be true, at lest about cameras. i have Canon EOS 300D. I plug it in my Suse Linux and I can just browse the photos. For Windows I would need to install a driver. Of corse I have lost the disk that came with my camera, so i have to search for the drivers on the web ...
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Of course, when one see the vast amount of duplication, reinvention (how many packaging format does Linux need?) in Free software, it is painful.
But no amount of wishful thinking will change this, sorry!
Anyhow, I'm quite amused that the author think that Word is a good program, this clearly show that he is only twenty year old.. I doubt that he has many experiments with other software like FrameMaker for example..
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Of course, when one see the vast amount of duplication, reinvention (how many packaging format does Linux need?) in Free software, it is painful.
But no amount of wishful thinking will change this, sorry!
Of course, when one see the vast amount of duplication, reinvention (how many different spyware, antivirus, burning, media playing, office suites (hell MS themselves make 2, works and office) programs does Windows need?) in proprietary software, it is painful. But no amount of wishful thinking will change this, sorry!
For that matter, look at the amount of duplication in music. Eminem, 50 Cent, N'Sync, Backstreet Boys. I mean, everyone here at OSNews knows that there should only ever be one option, whether it be software, music, movies, games, etc. :-P
The funny thing most people don't realize is that many of these projects share a lot of code, and even participate with each other on mailing lists and such, such as Xine and Mplayer....doesn't happen as often in Windows or Proprietary software. Do you see the folks from Corel download the MS Office source code and politely pointing out bugs and reusing code from MS Office when it suits them? The fact that they don't just goes to show how much duplication there is in the proprietary world....probably more so than in the OSS world.
A nice example, for scanning on Linux I have XSane and Kooka. For Windows, I have 2 HP scanners, both with different software. I then have another program for my portable Canon scanner. My mom's computer has yet another program for her Epson scanner. I think that could be classified as "reinventing the wheel" just an insy teensy bit, doncha think? 4 scanning programs between two members of my family?
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Well, there are reasons for the less widespread usage of Linux on the common desktop. But those are not neccessarily the same mentioned in the article. A friend of mine, used to Linux from the time I administrated his machine but not really tech-savvy, moved to a different city - he downloadad a copy of Kubuntu and installed it in no-time. No manual required, everything just worked. But he knew that Linux isn't Windows. And there's the problem for the common user...
Take a Mac. Macs are trendy and stylish, the creative/ advertisement sector shows us all the time. Some people with enough money to spare go out and buy a Mac, just becuase tey're hip. Plug it in, works. Cool. Exceptionary user friendly? Not really. Every preinstalled OS just works, and they are all easy to use to pretty much the same extent. And of course everything works a bit different compared to Windows. You'll also need different software and drivers...
But there's the difference to Linux, and the main problem: a Mac is a Mac to the customer, not a PC with a different OS. HalflifeČ wont work? Well, no, but it's a Mac - nobody expects PC software to work. With Linux, things are different. To the customers, PC == Windows. They expect any PC OS to look like Windows, behave like Windows, and be able to use the same software as Windows. After all, it's still a PC, right? Read noob-posts on a Linux forum of your choice: "Will my warezd Photoshop/ 3DSMAX/ whatever work?", "Can I play Age of Empires?", "Linux is crap! My winmodem doesn't work!". Well... Of course that stuff doesn't work, because you're not using Windows. But the mere consumer usually won't get it, and goes back to Windows in no-time.
On a side note, read Mac forums these days: Just because Apple switches to x86, post after post pops up, asking exactly the same questions usually found on Linux forums... :-)
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Additionally, when you make so many mistakes (like having to reboot to change IP addresses or DNS servers), it is rather easy to improve.
If the author took more than a second to reflect on the state of the "Linux Desktop", he would know that KDE is light-years ahead of where it was on, say the 0.9 release.
Also, typical Liunx/FOSS software has a much more conservative point of view of its releases. Take the Gnome application - GPDF; it is 0.131. Anyone thinking that this software is 100% functional or finished is crazy.
Microsoft has released betaware it's enitre history; it just happened to be the software that was preinstalled on every PC since '87 or so. Windows 2000 should be considered Windows 1.0, and XP; Windows 1.1.
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"From the article: "Windows is a lot better than Linux because in the past, Windows has learned from their mistakes."
Say what? Windows learned from their mistakes???? Since When?! They still have LOT's of design flaws in their OS specially in terms of security!"
It's not "Since when?" it's, but look how many time they had to get hit on the head when they could have looked at the good and bad of existing systems and used a more Unix like security model to begin with.
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Seeing that the last page mainly consists of yet more name calling and unfounded allegations there is no real reason to comment on it.
What the author lacks in insight and knowledge he seems to try to make up for with insults and name calling. How on earth could a totally senseless article like this one be published? Please tell me this is not the level of "debate" osnews is looking for.
Finally, before people accuse me of being a zealot, which they will do anyway, I think that there are a lot of areas where Linux on the desktop could and should improve and I think that a debate about these issues really could be very interesting.
However in order to start a debate here you at least need an article that has at least something resembling an argument, not just some useless drivel by an adolescent.
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i read some of the article...
I wont waste my time with most of it suffice to say
not all of us care if linux takes over the world, most of us HAVE seen linux grow by leaps and bounds, i personally do not feel like you have "learned" linux at all, sounds like you are one of those weekend players that like to install and get confused and swear it isnt ready...
please clarify what "leaps and bounds" windows has made please...
yea kde and gnome, actually xfce, e, icewm, so many more... and choice is good! the competition between kde and gnome is what keeps them both humping... no stagnation for me thanks....
awww shit, why do i waste my time... you know what, Im not anymore...
i officially swear I will not waste any posts on obvious flamebait, no one who thinks linux isnt ready will ever accept the argument that it is and vice versa, but the fact is that numerous people use it and I dont think the fact that YOU dont use it somwhow concludes that it isnt ready for anyone....
nuff said
JT
Member since:
2005-07-11
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I'm sick of this whining about different desktops and toolkits. Maybe people just like Microsoft's way of deciding what people want. I don't. I like KDE, my brother likes Xfce and my friend likes Gnome. If somebody doesn't understand the difference, can't he/she use the default desktop? Then the toolkit issue. Yes, different apps might look different in GNU/Linux. Fortunately all apps look like same in Windows. Or do they? Have a look at these screenshots: http://www.owenrudge.net/desktop/xpshots/freedos.png and http://www.owenrudge.net/desktop/xpshots/vstudio.png . I can see three different visual styles without changing any preferences, or even installing any additional programs. And that's not all, there are also programs like Media Player and Ad-Aware, in example. Why has nobody never whined about this?
Member since:
2005-07-06
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Regarding GNU/Linux on the desktop, the reason it is slow to adopt is that there is no real pre-installed mainstream option. Couple that with the largest monopoly in the world and the task becomes more difficult. End of story. Linux is there. It just take time. First it will happen like it is the "third world" where budgets are small to no existent. It will slowly spread but not take over.
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This is exactly the reason that "linux isn't ready for the desktop." If there were companies like Dell pre-installing linux on their computers that they ship out to corporations, then Linux would take off extremely well. From that people would start using them at home more. This is what happened during the 80's. Even though the AtariST and Amiga and Macs had a better power/price ratio than IBM compatibles, they still lost out in the end because people needed the IBM compatibles for working at home.
If this could happen, then all the Photoshop, or EA Games etc, would start pushing to get their products ported over.
Member since:
2005-07-11
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The article stayed 3 computers, however, Apple Store states below its licensing usage.
Family Pack Software License Agreement allows you to install and use one copy of the Apple Software on up to a maximum of five (5) Apple-labeled computers at a time as long as those computers are located in the same household and used by persons who occupy that same household. By "household" we mean a person or persons sharing the same housing unit such as a home, apartment, mobile home or condominium. This license does not extend to students who reside at a separate on-campus location or to business or commercial users.
I believe if you are going to distribute information to the masses it need to be correct otherwise it can be viewed as slanted or bias by someone familiar with the product and misinformation for those seeking knowledge.
Member since:
2005-07-06
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I remember when I first got a computer, having never used one before in my life, I knew I used the mouse to point and click on things, and then stuff would happen. I must have spent 48hrs straight mesmerized by this thing, and was just clicking here over there on here for hours until I got acquainted.
When I first installed Mandrake 8.0 it was the same thing. I spent quite a few hours just clicking around and learning about the system. After that I could do most things I wanted on the computer, installing apps was (and still is) a complete pain unless you know what you're doing, this is where Linux needs development. Just allow me to click and have an application installed, on windows I just click yes/ok through 5 menus and it's good to go, this is far simpler for the average user than the nightmare of Linux.
Having said this.. I couldn't care less if Linux ever challenges Windows for the desktop, I have no reason to, what do I care if my relatives are using an *OMG OPEN SOURCE WORD PROCESSOR!11* in the scheme of things it really doesn't matter, computers are nothing more than slaves that we expect to work like and how we say so. None of them meet this task all the time.
Member since:2005-07-06
Fans: 27
LOL. I remember when I first got a computer, I couldn't figure out the concept of a double-click. It wasn't until the next day that I read the manual and figured out how to do it. A couple of months later, I got a copy of King's Quest for my birthday, and couldn't install it until a week later when my uncle showed me the concept of "install.exe". I also remember struggling through the concept of IRQs and COM ports and master/slave drives, etc. Take my dad as another example. He started using computers back when his office had word-processing terminals hooked up to a central mini-computer (mainframe). It wasn't until the late 1990s that I showed him how to use CTRL-C, CTRL-V instead of clicking on the copy and paste icons.
There is an immense amount of Windows-specific knowledge that most users have. People really underestimate how Windows seems easy mainly because they've been using it for years, and have gradually learned its new features. When dealing with that sort of inertia, unless you're dramatically better, most people will still percieve you as worse.
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i wonder when people will see that these three operating system are different and they all have different ways of doing things.
i think people can't take that Linux is becoming more and more common everyday. the first time i've installed it in 99, i wasn't telling anyone that i was using linux, just to keep it to myself. it was better even then...
anyway, the real thing i want to say is, using an operating system is just like fashion: "fashion is what looks good on you" - so, the best operating system is the one you feel great with. you can help linux community, increase the quality of the l10n or i18n, or write a few programs, it's all up to you. these kind of essays, talking about the design flaws, ease of installation, etc are simply subjective. if i was able to use linux in 99 without complaints, anyone, who feels like it, can use it now... people like taking attention.
you all take care now
Member since:
2005-07-07
Fans: 0
What the guys building linux have to do? And more who is to do the things. Linus with the kernel team, the people behind the GNU stuff, the Gnome. KDE, XFace developers, RedHat, Novell, Debian, Cannonical? We the users? What we have to do? Have the KDE, GNOME, WindowMake teams forced to stop developing for linux and say "Hey we the users want everything to look the same, act the same (be consistent you say). You either do that or stop writing for linux!" Do the same with the oh so awful disto vendors?
If you want windows use windows. If you like MakOS use it. Why Linux should become like them? Why change "Windows on every desktop" with "Linux on every desktop"? Why geeks shouldn't have an OS done the way they want it, and not the way "joe-user" wants it?
Simply another pointless article.
Member since:
2005-07-06
Fans: 3
The whole article was a big waste of time, starting with some untrue drivel of how hard Linux is to install and the usuall "force the users to read manuals" line. Those old lines are just becoming more and more untrue, as the modern Linux distributions continue to increase in quality and easier of install. And I'd dare say its easier than installing windows, and after the main install you are not forced through the 10 to 30 minutes installing 3rd party drivers and and reboots like with windows. All the modern distributions does have point and click configuration utilities just as easy as the windows ones, and the default settings make as much senses as the ones in windows. Making the need for reading manuals just as big as for windoes, to achieve the same end result. Those two "arguments" are to old and have not been true for years. The only reason windows still are considered easier are because it comes pre-installed, afterall no installation are always easier.
The rest of the article boils down to "choice is bad" and "to many options confuse the users". Those "arguments" have as always a very minimal validity, and using them generally to fit his conclusion does not help either.
And when he refers to Word as an editor he just confirms he is just another clueless pundit. If he is an indication on the state of current CS students, the future of computer industry don't look too bright.
Member since:2005-07-06
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The rest of the article boils down to "choice is bad" and "to many options confuse the users". Those "arguments" have as always a very minimal validity, and using them generally to fit his conclusion does not help either.
Even though I think the authors isn't aware of it. I think there is some truth in the "choice is bad" argument.
Choice, per se, isn't bad, but uninformed vs. informed choices, important choices and nonsense choices all can have a negative impact on the end-user.
I, f.ex., choose to run Gentoo (my choice, good choice) which in turn presents me with a "meta-distribution". In beeing a "meta-distribution" it is expected that I make all the choices necessary to turn it into a distribution and then from there to a operating system.
While installing I'm forced (not entirely forced, but it will suffice for this argument) choose how to compile my packages, choose what implementation of standard components I want (I think there was three diffrent crond implementations) and choose what DE to stack ontop of it all. All these choices have a high probabillity of beeing uninformed (the Gentoo documentation does an honest effort in minimizing this though) and are, from any point of view, totaly nonesense. It was my choice to be confronted with all those choices thought so I won't complain.
In the other end we have Ubuntu and a few others. They are for all intents and purposes complete operating systems. The end-user is only confronted with the choice of running Ubuntu, or not running ubunutu. The rest is taken care of by the developers. The probabillity of taking informed choices is much higher this way, and the end-user is not confronted with nonsense.
The problem layes in between. This is where debian, redhat and other "distributions" lives. They market their products as if they were operating systems, but in reallity they are more like... distributions. What they do (and do well, mind you) is to distribute OS components that is meant to work reasonably well together.
The real market for these products are OS developers who pick components to further integrate into a polished OS. Note that by OS developer I'm not only referring to companies such as Cononical whow mainly create an OS for mainstream consumption, but also consulting companies who sell complete sollutions and all the inhouse IT-departments and server administrators.
The problem as I understand it is that many new Linux users (as the author seems to be) is confused and tries to treat a distribution as an OS.
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The main problem with desktop linux is drivers.
True, but the turningpoint will be here soon. No production unit can afford to let say 10% of a potention market share slip through..... just 'coz no-one in the company can write a simple driver.
The companies that will write the drivers will get the business..... simpel market mechanism :-)
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Fa