Linked by Andrew Youll on Fri 12th Aug 2005 16:52 UTC, submitted by Jure Repinc
KDE "It looks like the first part of my KDE 3.5 previews was extremely popular. Much more than I could ever anticipated. I even got Slashdotted. Anyway, here is the second part of the look into KDE's near future. Enjoy the tour!"
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KDE 3.5 alpha LIVECD
by h0lden on Fri 12th Aug 2005 17:19 UTC
h0lden
Member since:
2005-07-27
can't wait
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 17:24 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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't ill its arrived :-), looks good, and with every release it's becoming more powerful, great job. Although I'm not really fond of the most popular themes.

Reply Score: 0

RE: I even got Slashdotted
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 17:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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it must be an honor ;P

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: I even got Slashdotted
by KugelKurt on Fri 12th Aug 2005 17:39 UTC in reply to "RE: I even got Slashdotted"
KugelKurt Member since:
2005-07-06
v I know its been said before....
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 17:45 UTC
UnderScore Member since:
2005-07-06

A 'look' is all subjective. What you might call elegant, I might call bland. What I call eye catching you might call shocking.

Read the blogs at planetkde.org and you will discover that they are working on cleaning 3.5 up and streamlining it too. Artwork (icons, wallpapers, colors & themes) for 3.5 is not ready and the Klax 3.5 alpha ships with most of the 3.4 artwork. As for the KDE 4.0 release (1+ year away), they are activly pursuing usability and along with functionality.

Yes, the default look is Plastik. It is however _very_ easy to change Plastik to a less stylized & more 'flat' style. Visit kde-look.org for artwork & GUI stuff. Visit kde-artists.org to see them working on future GUI stuff.

Reply Score: 4

Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

They do need to change the default theme. They need something like clearlooks. It doesn't have to be clearlooks, but something with "cooler", more soothing colors. Oranges and electric blues are bad.

Reply Score: 3

Anonymous Member since:
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Clearlooks and Plastik are almost identical! The only difference is colour - and guess what you can have different colour schemes in kde themes - just change the colour scheme. Please show me the orange in the kde default colour scheme?

Matt

Reply Score: 0

Daniel Borgmann Member since:
2005-07-08

Clearlooks and Plastik are almost identical! The only difference is colour

Almost, yeah... If Clearlooks and Plastik are identical, then Plastik and Luna are also identical. These themes all use roughly the same drawing style, but the overall appearance is very different.

I still believe that Plastik was about the best free desktop style for its time, but I also believe that it needs a little overhaul. ;)

If Qt will support Cairo at some point, we could even cooperate on the themes. Richard already abstracted Clearlooks-cairo in a way that would make it trivial to use the same drawing routines in another toolkit. And of course Cairo will allow much more sophisticated themes to be created.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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If Qt will support Cairo at some point

Since Qt has a competitor to Cairo called Arthur, I doubt that will ever happen.

Reply Score: 0

edomaur Member since:
2005-08-07

>>>If Qt will support Cairo at some point

>>Since Qt has a competitor to Cairo called Arthur, I doubt that will ever happen.

Well, it is not excluded. I do not remember exactly, but there is other technologies that exists in two kinds in KDE. KDE is not Qt and its developers are free to choose whatever tech they want.

But yes, it seems unlikely, at least for the moment.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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But yes, it seems unlikely, at least for the moment.

And the main reason for that is that Cairo is still API unstable while Qt 4.0 is already production code.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Hmm but I am sure you don't mind the ultra-preskool look of XP on your serious professional office desktop!!!

Talk about double standards ... but then you seem to be a troll just out of the GNOME camp to me!!

Reply Score: 0

Looking good :)
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 17:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Congrats to the KDE devs & artists - looking good chaps ;)

Reply Score: 0

v RE: I know its been said before....
by Morty on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:20 UTC
Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

Its funny that you mention perfect elegance and professional look when referring to Gnome though....you must agree with my point to some degree.

No, just hear that kind of stuff a lot from Gnome folks.

Reply Score: 2

v ...
by Yuske on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:24 UTC
RE: ...
by Morty on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:39 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Ain't these KDE users lovely?
Sometimes one get tired of haering the same uselss drivel and nonsen over and over. Even non KDE users usually does, that's why mostly anti KDE trolls and flamers frequent these treads and not oher non KDE'ers.

Nobody has mentioned GNOME but you.
With the look of Os X and XP both more flashy than KDE, the only one less so are Gnome QED.

Reply Score: 2

v ...
by Yuske on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:44 UTC
RE[3]: I know its been said before....
by Morty on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:44 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Perhaps mine was trollish, but not more than intended. I'm rater sick of those trolls in every tread mentioning KDE, and using the "my opinion" disguise does not make it any less troll. If your opinions match those of known trolling, back it up whit facts or else you only troll. Opinion or not.

Reply Score: 1

Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

If your opinions match those of known trolling, back it up whit facts or else you only troll.

Are you aware of the difference between opinion and fact?
Sorry to jump in here, but that's really f'ing stupid.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Morty
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I know its been said before...."
Anonymous Member since:
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Ok, my bad. Morty's Opinion is the only aloud. Nothing else can be a fact or hold any water unless it passes Morty's seal of approval. Therefore, bright colors, and most prominently electric blue, is a stunning display of elegance and asthetics. I see my post was modded down...thats great. I make a reasonable comment, he responds like a jackass....so I get modded. What a joke.....and I'm an effing KDE user.

Reply Score: 0

v ...
by Yuske on Fri 12th Aug 2005 18:51 UTC
Looks versus personality
by ohbrilliance on Fri 12th Aug 2005 19:10 UTC
ohbrilliance
Member since:
2005-07-07

The beauty of KDE is in it's functionality and workflow. For example, you can't bean the fish// protocol with inline editing of remote files in KDE applications. Screenshots will simply never capture the full capability of KDE.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Looks versus personality
by CrimsonScythe on Fri 12th Aug 2005 19:50 UTC in reply to "Looks versus personality"
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

I agree completely with you on that! It is something that I really, really miss in OS X on my Powerbook. (The whole KIO-slave concept, I mean.)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Looks versus personality
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:13 UTC in reply to "Looks versus personality"
Anonymous Member since:
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That's true !

While we're at KIO-slaves, let me mention audiocd:/.
Just insert an Audio CD, go to audiocd:/ in konqueror, and it shows you virtual folders named 'MP3', 'OGG', 'CDA', 'FLAC', and they contain virtual files in the respective formats which you can just drag&drop to your usb key or hard disk drive, and it then encodes the music on the fly in the desired format (no WMA is not available ;) )

Reply Score: 1

@Lumbergh
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 20:16 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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You mean that clearlooks that is basically a copy of Plastik?

Reply Score: 0

Wow!
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 20:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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KDE is looking ever more like GNOME.

Reply Score: 0

My wish
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 20:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Let the Konqueror programmers get rid of those outrageous tool-bars and icons. The location and search bar can be squeezed in that space I see on the "back", "forward" and "home" icons tool-bar. As it is now, valuable real estate is being wasted. Besides, even after customizing, the tool bars sometimes forget their settings. At this point, getting them back to normal is almost impossible.

Reply Score: 0

RE: My wish
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 20:58 UTC in reply to "My wish"
Anonymous Member since:
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Yeah, and I've never understood the necessity of having size buttons and the print button on the main toolbar by default.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: My wish
by m_abs on Fri 12th Aug 2005 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE: My wish"
m_abs Member since:
2005-07-06

The "Size"-buttons are very usefull, I use them very often, depending on how many files are in a folder.

I do however wonder what "Print" is doing in my filemanager.
But I think all other the buttons should be there, by default.

Reply Score: 1

Awesome
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 20:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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KDE is looking great these days. If they can clean it up a bit and make it more stable, I may switch from GNOME.

I'm aware KDE is still even now far ahead of GNOME as far as being a complete desktop goes, but GNOME's been fine for me, as I don't mind going to the console a lot.

And KIOSlaves are very innovative. Also, Plasma sounds like it may push the Free Desktop ahead of even OSX.

Anyone notice that the latest Vista previews seem to reveal Windows finally catching up with various KDE/GNOME features? Heheheh.

Reply Score: 2

bigger and bigger...
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 21:59 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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...complex and more complex.

I can't get it. KDE has a great toolkit (maybe the best one), great technology (e.g. kioslaves) but the overall desktop is just bad. I see it like Matthias Ettrich, the founder of KDE: "I get the feeling we do embedding and morphing not because its useful, but because we can."

I would love to use KDE, just because i love it to code with Qt.

But just look at the new tooltips. Big, ugly and mostly useless. I you point with the cursor on the kicker, who needs a list of all windows? Maybe you need it once in 1000 cases, at the rest 999 situation it just bugging.

The tooltip is just one example. I feel, that the KDE Hackers implement every function which they needed at one day even if thay doesn't need it for the rest of their life. That leaves us with KDE programs with 101 features which are really nice if you want to show someone the power of your desktop but on the daily use, most people just don't need it and the only think these features does is getting in the way.

Reply Score: 2

RE: bigger and bigger...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 04:37 UTC in reply to "bigger and bigger..."
Anonymous Member since:
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You realize of course that you can turn that off...

Reply Score: 0

...
by Yuske on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:05 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

You mean that clearlooks that is basically a copy of Plastik?

The irony is that plastik looks better in GNOME than in KDE.

Reply Score: 1

v ...
by Yuske on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:17 UTC
v RE: ...
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:36 UTC in reply to "..."
RE: ...
by adiwibowo on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:38 UTC in reply to "..."
adiwibowo Member since:
2005-07-15

Wow I can rip music now Im productive.

What's wrong with you ?

He just show how to use audiocd:/ and no mention of productivity at all.
What's wrong with you? Are you a kid?

Reply Score: 2

RE: ...
by Anonymous on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:53 UTC in reply to "..."
Anonymous Member since:
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That was implemented on BeOS as a plugin at least 4 years ago.. I can't remember now the name of the application on bebits, but I used that for a long time.

It didn't have all the different encoding types, but it could show "44.1KHz 16bits", "22KHz", and so on...

Reply Score: 0

v RE[2]: ...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:13 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
RE[3]: ...
by StephenBeDoper on Sat 13th Aug 2005 17:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Not that it really matters, but cdda_fs has been around for close to 6 years:

http://www.bebits.com/app/157

Date Posted: July 19th, 1999

Reply Score: 1

v ...
by Yuske on Fri 12th Aug 2005 23:47 UTC
RE: ...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:46 UTC in reply to "..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Arthur is not as powerfull as Cairo, that is why TrollTech is working (or was) in integrate Cairo as a backend.

Maybe you want to read this, from Zack Rusin's blog:

Also people have been asking me about Cairo so lets get something clear: right now there's no point in Arthur using Cairo. There's just absolutely no good reason for it. I will be closely watching Cairo and if the need arises I'll start working on fixing the issues we have with it, but as of right now there's just no good reason for KDE to be using Cairo. None. None whatsoever. Please do reread the last paragraph.

Reply Score: 2

just showing some plastik love...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:17 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Since I find it hard to believe its so bad...it really is the best theme I've used on any OS (yes I do change the colour scheme but that's just my preference)

Reply Score: 0

v Who's modding me down ?
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:24 UTC
Again modded down to -2 ?!
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Look, there is a problem with the moderation system.

See this message :
http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=11555&comment_id=17688

Either there is something important that I've not understood. In that case, please explain me.
Or, there is a silly person with far too much moderation power here.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Again modded down to -2 ?!
by cm__ on Sat 13th Aug 2005 06:10 UTC in reply to "Again modded down to -2 ?!"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> Or, there is a silly person with far too much moderation power here.

Yes, that's probably it. And I think I even have an idea who that could be although that won't help much. But I don't even think that person has any special privileges. I guess he just invented some virtual friends (multiple troll accounts).

Reply Score: 1

RE: bigger and bigger...
by superstoned on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:46 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

c'mon, KDE hasn't become much bigger since 3.3! its getting leaner and leaner. yes, there where features added, but also many simplified or hidden between 'advanced' buttons and sub-menu's. and ok, konqueror only lost 2 icons yet, but it'll lose another 2-3 in KDE 3.5, and there might be a better seperation of filemanager and webbrowser, at least the profile-system will be enhanced - there 2-3 other icons leave us.

but many other apps, like kontact (kmail, korganizer) got extensive usabillity studies, and where changed accordingly.

about the tooltip: I LOVE IT. in 3.5, it gives information about the applications on each desktop when you move the mouse over the pager picture. invaluable, really. the 'lock panels' feature will make the panels 'static' so you (or someone else) won't make changes you didn't want to.

and it is NOT true they implement every thing they think off. i've seen several bugreports being closed with WONTFIX because the dev's and other posters concluded the feature was only used by few, if any users.

ok, its not perfect yet. but getting better fast. many people are working on the usabillity part, and sometimes you are amazed by the results of their work!

Reply Score: 3

RE: Anonymous (IP: 24.148.44.---)
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 00:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Cool, but who cares if BeOS did this four years ago? Guess what, the audiocd-KIO was already present in KDE 2.0, released 2001 (hey, four years ago!)! That means the code was probably in CVS since 1999 or 2000...

Reply Score: 0

What the...
by sonic1001 on Sat 13th Aug 2005 02:05 UTC
sonic1001
Member since:
2005-07-18

"File properties dialog got a new Preview tab"
http://photos23.flickr.com/33186547_53eb0b1000_o.png

Let me get this straight. Not only do you have the konqueror preview and the tooltip preview, now you have properties preview? 3 seperate previews showing the same damn thing?!?!?!?!

Are the KDE developers really this stupid? How could this be helpful in any possible way?

<sarcasm> Oh but they will fix their usability problems in KDE 4. Thats what they have been telling us for months so it must be true.</sarcasm>

Reply Score: 1

RE: What the...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 02:27 UTC in reply to "What the..."
Anonymous Member since:
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your point?

Reply Score: 0

v RE[2]: What the...
by sonic1001 on Sat 13th Aug 2005 02:37 UTC in reply to "RE: What the..."
RE[3]: What the...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 03:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What the..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Funny how the people who complain about KDE don't even use it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: What the...
by sonic1001 on Sat 13th Aug 2005 03:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What the..."
sonic1001 Member since:
2005-07-18

"Funny how the people who complain about KDE don't even use it."

I've run KDE since v3.1 and have Kubuntu 5.04 with KDE 3.4.1 installed on one of my partitions.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: What the...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 03:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: What the..."
Anonymous Member since:
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In that case why not pitch in and make the changes you want. Or go a step further, KDE is under GPL license, get people who agree with you and create a fork. Bitching accomplishes nothing.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: What the...
by sonic1001 on Sat 13th Aug 2005 03:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: What the..."
sonic1001 Member since:
2005-07-18

"In that case why not pitch in and make the changes you want."

I have and the KDE developers refuse to listen. I've made suggestions and sometimes mockups regarding:

Konqueror user-profiles and why they don't work
Simplifying Kprint
A Gnome like K-menu
Simplifying Korganizer
Scalable usability via Kxmlgui (like the performance tuner)
Universal document viewer which was ignored and now they have okular as a Summer of Code project. Pfft

The KDE developers don't care, they are happy with the status quo regardless of what they say.

"DE is under GPL license, get people who agree with you and create a fork."

Its already been done:

SimpleKDE
http://www.simplekde.org/

I doubt it will be taken seriously though.

"Bitching accomplishes nothing."

Neither does completely ignoring the issues.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: What the...
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 03:40 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: What the..."
Anonymous Member since:
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"SimpleKDE
http://www.simplekde.org/"

So use that, wait till its done or sign up for helping with the development.

"Neither does completely ignoring the issues."

To me the only issues are with stability and speed. I'm fine with the UI as well as the usability and KDE 4 seems to be on the right track with plasma.

If KDE is a lost cause to you simply don't use it, leave it to the rest of us who feel that its making strides in the right direction.

Reply Score: 0

kde
by re_re on Sat 13th Aug 2005 05:21 UTC
re_re
Member since:
2005-07-06

kde must suck because it only has 60% of total OSS market share......

think about this statement

Reply Score: 2

KHotStuff
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 05:39 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Did you guys stop to think that 'Sonic1001' meant the majority of users as in the 95%+ Window/OSX crowd?

Anyways, will KDE 3.5 include the new KHotStuff UI that was on Planet KDE a while ago?

Reply Score: 0

RE: KHotStuff
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 05:42 UTC in reply to "KHotStuff"
Anonymous Member since:
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RE: KHotStuff
by Mediocre Sarcasm Man on Sat 13th Aug 2005 06:27 UTC in reply to "KHotStuff"
Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

Did you guys stop to think that 'Sonic1001' meant the majority of users as in the 95%+ Window/OSX crowd?

No, I doubt theres a significant chunk of that "95%+ Window/OSX crowd" that gives have a damn about KDE.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 14:19 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

Also people have been asking me about Cairo so lets get something clear: right now there's no point in Arthur using Cairo. There's just absolutely no good reason for it. I will be closely watching Cairo and if the need arises I'll start working on fixing the issues we have with it, but as of right now there's just no good reason for KDE to be using Cairo.

I read that before, It is a petty, vecause other projects like Mozilla, Openoffice will use Cairo, that would only isolate KDE from interoperability, I hope they give support for it.

And about Cairo stability, It is the same KDE developers said about SVG graphics and look, GNOME ate the SVG cake first and KDE didn't cach it till 3.3, maybe it was buggy, but most of users didn't noted the gliches while GNOME develoeprs where fix in it and if no one test it then, When will become stable?

Cairo is stable enought to be used, it is a petty that KDE is not working with it, if they decided to work with Arthur then good for them, but at the end that can be translated in more work when Cairo becomes the standar and stable.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by segedunum on Sat 13th Aug 2005 15:12 UTC in reply to "..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I read that before, It is a petty, vecause other projects like Mozilla, Openoffice will use Cairo, that would only isolate KDE from interoperability, I hope they give support for it.

Mozilla and Open Office will not be using Cairo, although they may use it indirectly in the future through GTK. And petty? This NIH syndrome bullshit KDE keeps getting accused of is just silly. It doesn't exist.

Cairo is non-existant crap at the moment. It isn't finished, has very serious performance issues and at this point in time no project should really be using it in a heavy way. The only reason why people talk about it as the greatest thing since sliced bread and that everyone should be using is the fact that everyone thinks it will give them wonderful eye candy to do what Longhorn (Vista) will, or wants, to do.

It is the same KDE developers said about SVG graphics and look, GNOME ate the SVG cake first and KDE didn't cach it till 3.3

Yes. And KDE adopted it when it was ready.

but most of users didn't noted the gliches while GNOME develoeprs where fix in it and if no one test it then, When will become stable?

SVG was certainly tested in and around KDE for a very long time, but no one threw KDE into it until it was fully ready. Just because KDE hasn't fully adopted something, doesn't mean it isn't actually tested ;-).

Cairo is stable enought to be used

No, it isn't.

but at the end that can be translated in more work when Cairo becomes the standar and stable.

Who says Cairo is actually going to work properly or even become a standard? I think some people have very strange ideas about what constitutes a standard.

Besides, Cairo is only a drawing API really, isn't anything massively spectacular, and Arthur could quite easily use it eventually as a back-end. That's why he said, there's not point in Arthur using Cairo.

Reply Score: 1

Cairo
by Anonymous on Sat 13th Aug 2005 14:42 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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It makes no sense at all for KDE to use Cairo. Ignoring, for a moment, that Cairo is not finished and it's API / ABI are not yet stable, remember that Cairo is basically just a drawing API. It's not some deep change to the underlying architecture, it's not incompatible with standard X stuff, doesn't replace anything, and it's not really anything revolutionary. It's just a (decent) drawing API.

The key technologies that Cairo runs on are the X Render extension, and OpenGL (via Glitz). Qt's Arthur is also a painting API, and it uses the exact same underlying technologies as Cairo does. You can (or will be able to do) just about anything with Arthur that you could do with Cairo (and the reverse is also true). Advancements to the underlying architecture (like better RENDER acceleration) will equally benefit both systems, and they will run absolutely fine side by side.

So why would KDE not using Cairo somehow harm interoperability between Gnome and KDE? KDE and Gnome also use different graphical toolkits, different object systems, they're written in different programming languages, and so on. The painting API makes very little difference to functionality.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 14:48 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

Good points there, maybe it is different something like KDE ang GNOME in toolkits, but instead of try to unite technologies to work more close they are putting a barrier to make a larger abism, if KDE has decided to go that way its ok, it is their desition and they are taking it for what they believe it is for the goodness of the project, but in a a large time will be a risky movement.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by Troels on Sat 13th Aug 2005 15:02 UTC in reply to "..."
Troels Member since:
2005-07-11

Yes, i can see how it is very risky movement using something that is build into the toolkit that they are already using instead of using incomplete technology </sarcasm>

This simply doesn't matter, as already stated, both are just drawing apis, using the same technology behind the scenes. Using the same will not magically make programs better at interoperability. And as others have already mentioned, cairo is not complete, using it will be a risky movement as the api might change, while Arthur is ready NOW.

Since cairo is built on top of X, that actually makes a point of why they should NOT use it, as it would go against the trend of making KDE independent from X. QT supports many platforms, and making KDE use arthur will make it so it can be compiled natively on other platforms without a need for an X server (windows and mac os)

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 15:09 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

Cairo is multiplatform too.

When I say risky, Im talking about projects that have nothing to do with KDE or GNOME but affect them in some way like OpenOffice, Mozilla, etc. if these project had decided to go with Cairo this will make it easier for GNOME but not for KDE, sure, they can`t take the source code and translate it to Arhut but, How much time will take? How much effort?

As I see KDE has decided to go solo with KDE4 and I really hope it work for them.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 15:26 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

Who says Cairo is actually going to work properly or even become a standard? I think some people have very strange ideas about what constitutes a standard.

Go to freedesktop.org

Yes. And KDE adopted it when it was ready.

And the price was hight.

Mozilla and Open Office will not be using Cairo

Yes they will both project had mentioned, read their blogs.

Cairo is non-existant crap at the moment. It isn't finished,

Its baking its true, but is getting to a point it will be usable for everyone.

No, it isn't.

Yes it is.

Besides, Cairo is only a drawing API really, isn't anything massively spectacular, and Arthur could quite easily use it eventually as a back-end.

That's only a speculation.

Reply Score: 0

RE: ...
by segedunum on Sat 13th Aug 2005 16:31 UTC in reply to "..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Go to freedesktop.org

Freedesktop does not formulate standards in any way. Go to Freedesktop and actually read the FAQ.

And the price was hight.

Not sure what that means, but yes, the price was right.

Yes they will both project had mentioned, read their blogs.

Since both Mozilla and Open Office are cross-platform applications they won't be using Cairo directly. It will be used indirectly through GTK and other software but will not stop people using relevant technology on Windows or Mac.

Its baking its true, but is getting to a point it will be usable for everyone.

It takes years to get a fully usable API to do what people want to do with Cairo (just ask Microsoft) and it doesn't provide everything. Considering other issues that deserve closer attention it is a very long way from being usable. It's not like adding SVG support.

Yes it is.

I suggest you go away and try a system using it for eight or nine hours a day.

That's only a speculation.

Not it isn't, and you haven't got a clue what you're talking about:

http://www.osnews.com/reply.php?news_id=11555&comment_id=17814

Also people have been asking me about Cairo so lets get something clear: right now there's no point in Arthur using Cairo.

Note, Arthur using Cairo.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: ...
by Anonymous on Sun 14th Aug 2005 12:27 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Since both Mozilla and Open Office are cross-platform applications they won't be using Cairo directly. It will be used indirectly through GTK and other software but will not stop people using relevant technology on Windows or Mac.

I don't know about OpenOffice, but at Mozilla they are adopting Cairo officially _exactly_ because they are a cross-platform project, as Cairo itself is. See:

http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/roc/archives/2005/04/glimpse_of_the....

Anyway I don't understand all this animosity. I've been following Cairo (that is almost at a 1.0 release and an officially stable API) and it is really nice to work with, or just merely tinker with in my case. It has been proposed as a standard (in the freedesktop.org sense, not as a standard sanctioned by some authority) and free library, and GTK happened to adopt it directly, while QT 4 had yet its own new graphic subsystem.
I don't know Arthur, but I'm sure that as soon as Cairo's api is stable some QT or KDE developers will write wrappers in both directions, and the same will happen under windows with the gdi+ or whatever their new name. After that, we'll need to see all these new libraries at work in practice to recognize their strong and weak points, and every programmer will just work with the API he/she's more comfortable and productive with.
In the meantime, whatever the choices, we'll have finally moved to real resolution-indipendent, and for what is possible GPU-accelerated desktops, and we'll all win.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by Morty on Sat 13th Aug 2005 15:55 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Who says Cairo is actually going to work properly or even become a standard? I think some people have very strange ideas about what constitutes a standard.

As a reply to this you state:
Go to freedesktop.org

But when I go to freedesktop.org I find this on the front page:
freedesktop.org is not a formal standards organization

and this:
Unlike a standards organization, freedesktop.org is a "collaboration zone" where ideas and code are tossed around

So what does freedesktop.org have to do with the possibility of Cairo to become a standard or not? Since they are not a standardization body, their own words.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: I know its been said before....
by amiroff on Sat 13th Aug 2005 15:55 UTC
amiroff
Member since:
2005-07-06

>They do need to change the default theme

Check this out! Very similar to Clearlooks theme of Gnome fame:

http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php?content=24345

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Check this out! Very similar to Clearlooks[...]
..or very similar to Plastic.. look at Plastic and Clearlooks, and forget about the colours. Now, gnome-boy, which one is the oldest? ;)

Reply Score: 0

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 16:03 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

As a reply to this you state:
Go to freedesktop.org

But when I go to freedesktop.org I find this on the front page:

freedesktop.org is not a formal standards organization
Unlike a standards organization, freedesktop.org is a "collaboration zone" where ideas and code are tossed around

So what does freedesktop.org have to do with the possibility of Cairo to become a standard or not? Since they are not a standardization body, their own words.



Sure Is not "The" standars in Free Desktops, but is a reunion point where projects look up to interoperate between them (like with DBUS, Drag and Drop, Clipboard, etc)so projects can easily interoperate with each other, if you decide go on your own, you are on a risk of other projects not be able to interoperate or use all the power of your tools, that's the importance of FD.org and Cairo as a standar

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by segedunum on Sat 13th Aug 2005 16:38 UTC in reply to "..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Sure Is not "The" standars in Free Desktops, but is a reunion point where projects look up to interoperate between them (like with DBUS, Drag and Drop, Clipboard, etc)so projects can easily interoperate with each other

I think what you really want to try and say there is 'interoperate with Gnome and GTK'. *ROTFL*

if you decide go on your own, you are on a risk of other projects not be able to interoperate or use all the power of your tools, that's the importance of FD.org and Cairo as a standar

As even you've said, neither Freedesktop or Cairo are standards.

That's total bottom-of-the-pile crap, and you can't even formulate your answers properly. Nice way to guarantee getting absolutely, totally ignored from now on.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 16:38 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

Since both Mozilla and Open Office are cross-platform applications they won't be using Cairo directly. It will be used indirectly through GTK and other software but will not stop people using relevant technology on Windows or Mac.

Who told you that? as far as I now theres no need of GTK for using Cairo in Mozilla or Open Office.

Freedesktop does not formulate standards in any way. Go to Freedesktop and actually read the FAQ

And you read above my reply.

Not sure what that means, but yes, the price was right.

REad "Higjt" not Rigth, as a concecuence of this GNOME SVG librarieas are more advanced and more integrated in GNOME and its anviroment, KDE won't have such luck till
4.0 .. hopely.

[]iIt takes years to get a fully usable API to do what people want to do with Cairo (just ask Microsoft) and it doesn't provide everything. Considering other issues that deserve closer attention it is a very long way from being usable. It's not like adding SVG support. [/i]

Cairo has years in development.

I suggest you go away and try a system using it for eight or nine hours a day.

I had, Foresight Linux is using GTK 2.7 with Cairo enbaled, works like a charm for me.

Not it isn't, and you haven't got a clue what you're talking about:

Cant you link me to the side that show the works of Arthur with Cairo?

Even if they use it as a backend that is adding another layer for something you can work directly.

Note, Arthur using Cairo.

Link?

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 16:54 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

I think what you really want to try and say there is 'interoperate with Gnome and GTK'. *ROTFL*

DBUS is not GNOME exclusive, neither ther other technologies FD,.org promote. your words are nothing but troll words.

As even you've said, neither Freedesktop or Cairo are standards.

That's doesn't mean it won't be widely used.

That's total bottom-of-the-pile crap, and you can't even formulate your answers properly. Nice way to guarantee getting absolutely, totally ignored from now on.

Ignoring the problem won't make it go away, just the like the Qt licenses issue.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by cm__ on Sat 13th Aug 2005 17:17 UTC in reply to "..."
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> > That's total bottom-of-the-pile crap, and you can't
> > even formulate your answers properly. Nice way to
> > guarantee getting absolutely, totally ignored from
> > now on.

> Ignoring the problem won't make it go away,


So you agree that you are a problem? That's more insight than I would have expected. But trolls *do* tend to go away when ignored so that's what I'll do. Once more.


> just the like the Qt licenses issue.

Ah. Finally back to your favourite troll subject. The circle is closed. EOD.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 17:30 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

So you agree that you are a problem? That's more insight than I would have expected. But trolls *do* tend to go away when ignored so that's what I'll do. Once more.

No, the problem is the risk of Arthur for KDE in interoperability.

Ah. Finally back to your favourite troll subject. The circle is closed. EOD.

ain't a "Troll subject" it is a known issue that people like you try to ignore but is there.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by cm__ on Sat 13th Aug 2005 18:24 UTC in reply to "..."
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> ain't a "Troll subject" it is a known issue that people like you try to ignore but is there.

Yawn. Always repeating the old FUD although your "arguments" have been refuted a thousand times. You're no fun anymore. Plonk.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by anda_skoa on Sat 13th Aug 2005 19:00 UTC in reply to "..."
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

No, the problem is the risk of Arthur for KDE in interoperability.

Both Cairo and Arthur are abstracted drawing APIs.

If bother are configured to use the same backend there will be no difference from below that backend.

For example if you have two APIs for drawing a rectangle, one taking the coordinates of the top left corner and the bottom right corner and one taking the top left corner, width and height, both can create the same rectangle.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: ...
by Mediocre Sarcasm Man on Sat 13th Aug 2005 19:10 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

For example if you have two APIs for drawing a rectangle, one taking the coordinates of the top left corner and the bottom right corner and one taking the top left corner, width and height, both can create the same rectangle.

No, I'm pretty sure those rectangles won't be able to interoperate.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: ...
by anda_skoa on Sat 13th Aug 2005 19:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

No, I'm pretty sure those rectangles won't be able to interoperate.

LOL
That earns you a mod-up ;)

Reply Score: 1

...
by Yuske on Sat 13th Aug 2005 18:44 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

Yawn. Always repeating the old FUD although your "arguments" have been refuted a thousand times. You're no fun anymore. Plonk.

Never refuted, actually the only I get is more trolling or sarcasm like your in your commnet,

Your sarcasm only show that you don't have nothing serious to reply.

Reply Score: 1

uh
by Anonymous on Sun 14th Aug 2005 07:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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So will linspire use this or will they still pay big money to create a clone of XP without really being a clone?

Oh, and has anyone ever got a source cd from them? Heck, have you noticed Linspire cds dont even have the gpl on the cd and neither does the "extras" cd that comes in the boxed edition!

Reply Score: 0

...
by Anonymous on Tue 16th Aug 2005 03:43 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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..or very similar to Plastic.. look at Plastic and Clearlooks, and forget about the colours. Now, gnome-boy, which one is the oldest? ;)

You see, the irony is tha plastik looks better in GNOME than in KDE.

Reply Score: 0