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Yep, Eugenia left and the place went to shit, and all because the asshole linux cult members who couldn't program their way out of a paper bag drove her way.

Nah it's the new moderation system, the trolls are creating multiple accounts and getting around it. I wish David, Thom and others would just mod-bomb the known trolls to -5. A negative starting score for posts by users with a negative average commenty score wouldn't hurt either.

The site moderators should have the ability to ban people based on IP address, any well designed web site where comments are possible should have that. I would love to see the moderators nuke some trolls too, the question is when that will happen.

Also another thing I'm waiting for is when those of us who have behaved ourselves will get more voting power. It would also be nice if moderators would grant some posts immunity from a score below 0, since in a few threads here *caugh*Mac TPM threads*caugh* people voted comments down because they didn't agree with them even though the posts were perfectly appropriate and in some cases true.

Here is another suggestion, people with an average score above 0.25 should start with a score of 1 on their comments, and people with an average score below -0.25 should start with a -1 score on their comments. Of course there is no telling how that will work out so some quick refinement to such a system should be possible.

"I'm making fun of the popular conception that Macs"

I think you mean misconception

Alright, I would really like to know who keeps voting my perfectly legit comments down; whoever is doing it is abusing the vote system and should be banned from this site.

If someone has a bone to pick they should have the balls to post a reply, otherwise they have no business abusing the voting system like this. If I have to I will be e-mailing (persistently) the site moderators about this until the negative votes are removed unless someone can actually justify why my comments were modded down based on the site guidelines.

The problem with your post was that you were trolling by saying that Macs were expensive... when the article was obviously a joke. When you try to reinforce the joke in a way as to suggest that its true... you are trolling.

"I guess some people didn't like the truth."


You then said:

"everytime a post about Apple which doesn't involved worshipping the company and/or its users comes out, people vote it down."

This comment suggests that the troll comments about Apple or the comments making misleading statements about Apple weren't worthy of being moderated-down.

By suggesting that those of us who moderated it down were simply upset because the comment wasn't glowing about Apple is a gross mischaracterization of the issue needing to be addressed.


You then said,

"First off people, yes there is a serious problem with many pro-Apple posters here claiming in much the same spirit as racism that us non-Apple users are the source of all piracy, violence, etc..."

Perhaps its all the news articles on this site regarding installing OS X on their PCs... which is piracy because you didn't buy a Mac to go with it... THIS IS REQUIRED.


You then said:

"If you can't see that it's because of voluntary blindness."

Thats clearly a troll comment. Mac users don't use this platform because they are blind to their options... they go against the grain because they believe its a better platform.



You then said,

"Apple users in general are no better than than any other person who has a computer whether it's made by Apple or not."

Nobody has said that Mac users are better... yet by suggesting otherwise you are reinforcing a false notion that it has been said which causes a whole new set of trolling to eminate from your comment.


You then said:

"Secondly quit abusing the voting system"

So far your comment has been filled with nothing but trollish or problematic commentary. The community voted it down for genuine reasons which I believe are quite obvious. The fact that you don't doesn't negate that the community disagrees with you.

"The problem with your post was that you were trolling by saying that Macs were expensive... when the article was obviously a joke. When you try to reinforce the joke in a way as to suggest that its true... you are trolling. "

Actually I wasn't the person who said that, try checking names and ip addresses on posts. The only time I posted without using my nick (Celerate) was when I accidentally posted AC at ip 206.163.226.---.

"You then said:

"everytime a post about Apple which doesn't involved worshipping the company and/or its users comes out, people vote it down."

This comment suggests that the troll comments about Apple or the comments making misleading statements about Apple weren't worthy of being moderated-down.

By suggesting that those of us who moderated it down were simply upset because the comment wasn't glowing about Apple is a gross mischaracterization of the issue needing to be addressed."

I wasn't referring to everyone and what I said is definitely not untrue. During the theads about the suspected TMP chips in the Mac developer boxes several (and I mean a lot) of legitimate comments were moderated down because they mentioned the downfalls of what DRM on the Mac could mean or because they brought up truths that some people didn't want to accept such as the fact that all of a sudden people were willing to discard their concerns about full fledged "Trusted computing" just because Apple decided to include it.

Also quite frankly, just because you don't agree with a comment doesn't give you the right to moderate it down, if you actually stopped for a second to read what that screen after you click the little negative box said you would know that moderating comments down is only if they violate the site terms. Last time I checked the site terms did not include "Thou shalt not have opinions".

"You then said,

"First off people, yes there is a serious problem with many pro-Apple posters here claiming in much the same spirit as racism that us non-Apple users are the source of all piracy, violence, etc..."

Perhaps its all the news articles on this site regarding installing OS X on their PCs... which is piracy because you didn't buy a Mac to go with it... THIS IS REQUIRED. "

Oh please, that relates exactly to one of my points; just because you have a shiny white box with a monochromo Apple logo on it doesn't mean you can't be a software pirate. You are saying, just like several before you, that Mac users cannot pirate software. I have some news for you, piracy of Mac software existed long before PearPC or OS X x86, so many Mac users stoop to the level of blaming regular lin/wintel users exclusively of piracy and I was pointing out that they were wrong and outright prejudiced in saying that. By the way, Apple hardware can be bought on eBay too, and it can be found in yard sales, not every Mac bought is money in Apple's bank.

" You then said:

"If you can't see that it's because of voluntary blindness."

Thats clearly a troll comment. Mac users don't use this platform because they are blind to their options... they go against the grain because they believe its a better platform. "

That is taken directly out of context in such a way that it could not have been an accident. The whole voluntary blindness part was regarding the bias of Apple users to blame everything on non-Apple users. In case you hadn't noticed my original reply was towards someone who was claiming that the violence the article mentioned was because everyone there was a non-Apple user simply based on the bias assumption that all Apple users were far better than that.

"You then said,

"Apple users in general are no better than than any other person who has a computer whether it's made by Apple or not."

Nobody has said that Mac users are better... yet by suggesting otherwise you are reinforcing a false notion that it has been said which causes a whole new set of trolling to eminate from your comment. "

You are so wrong, if you need an example look up the comment I was originally replying to. It isn't the first time either, when that article about OS X x86 being run in VMWare showed up there were a few comments where Apple users said it was typical of win/lintel users to be cheap and pirate software instead of actually buying a Mac.

"You then said:

"Secondly quit abusing the voting system"

So far your comment has been filled with nothing but trollish or problematic commentary. The community voted it down for genuine reasons which I believe are quite obvious. The fact that you don't doesn't negate that the community disagrees with you."

Actually my comments although a little heated were not troll posts, you misunderstood them and in at least one case couldn't even differenciate between my posts and that of another person. Secondly you aren't supposed to vote things down because you disagree with them, the site clearly states after clicking on that little negative link that moderating comments down is only for comments that violate the sites terms of use.

At least a few people owe me an apology, first off for assuming that I was trolling because they didn't actually take the time to think through what I've said, and secondly for misusing the vote system.

not really because almost all of the people were there because it was a 50 dollar laptop, not because it was an apple computer.

Sound like Microsoft, there, bud...

"Yes, and this is the point everytime this comes up."

No, only in articles where Apple is mischaracterized as being more expensive.


"Apple gives you less options"

Thats what I said.


"foists apps on you that you don't need"

Yes, but not for more money. The hardware costs between Macs and PCs are the same (assuming their equally equipped. The added software Apple includes is more often than not just an added benefit.


"offers you lesser hardware specs"

They offer less in some and more in some. They have a range of products at various price points. The point is that they don't cost more for the same hardware.


"offers you lesser hardware specs in favor of all the softw"

No, the software is just an added bonus.


"charges you a premium price."

No premium price. They just dont allow you to buy less and spend less like you can with PCs. Theres a big difference.


"Clever marketing to the ritzy crowd would be another.

They do have clever marketing... the fact that you assume that its to a ritzy crowd probably says more about your social standing mroe than it does about who Apple is actually marketing to.. because they are actually targeting the same consumers that every other PC manufacturer does.


"Out of sync? Yes, that would be one way to put it."

If you're talking about your perspective... then yes. If you're talking about Apple's prices... then no.

They do have clever marketing... the fact that you assume that its to a ritzy crowd probably says more about your social standing mroe than it does about who Apple is actually marketing to.. because they are actually targeting the same consumers that every other PC manufacturer does.

Apple does go for the urban/trendy crowd, they rarely try to cater to the business world. Let's face the facts, the market chose PCs over Macs for good reason. I can buy a dell box for $300 with a 2.5 ghz processor and I can upgrade any of the parts very easily. There's no Mac comparison.

Apple is a corporation ran by control freaks. They won't release a pc version of OS/X yet they complain that Windows has too much of the market. If Apple had control of the market we wouldn't be able to buy or make custom computers, we'd have to buy whatever the latest shape (lamp, square) that the Mac came in. I want alternatives to MS like everyone else but Apple isn't it.

Actually, Apple does go after the business crowd. They may not be as successful at it as others... but they do go after it. Regardless, not going after the business crowd does mean that Apple is going for a "ritzy" crowd. As the original poster said... they are targeting the same consumers that every other PC manufacturer does.


"I can buy a dell box for $300 with a 2.5 ghz processor and I can upgrade any of the parts very easily. There's no Mac comparison."

Thats true, but at the same time, Apple has its computer for which many PC oems don't have the same equivalents. What the Dell box is doing to achieve that low price is giving you a LOT in the processor but very little in other areas. Don't get me wrong, thats a very admirable benefit because many people may want computers equipped like that, but that doesn't mean that Apple prices its computers inappropriately. It simply means that Apple equips their computers with different components and thus prices them differently.


"Apple is a corporation ran by control freaks."

Thats a valid argument... even though the way you said it makes it sound like their is only negatives that result from this action. There are many positives that do as well such as better product integration between hardware, OS and software.

Another positive for adopting this strategy is that Apple can integrated more R&D into their products than most PC manufacturers do because they require the consumer to buy more. (They give fewer options to buy less). They get more for their computer because they force you to buy more. That may turn some people off but thankfully, Apple sells computers in all the major sweet spots of prices relative to features so that its not really (or should be) an issue for most consumers.


"They won't release a pc version of OS/X yet they complain that Windows has too much of the market."

Apple isn't complaining about it... yet I'm sure they want more of it. If Apple's complaining, its not that Microsoft got more of the market but that Microsoft acquired more of the market by using illegal and anticompetitive business practices to achieve that dominance.


"If Apple had control of the market we wouldn't be able to buy or make custom computers, we'd have to buy whatever the latest shape (lamp, square) that the Mac came in."

And if Microsoft had full control of the market, then there wouldn't be companies such as Apple that can offer consumers greater integration and product differentiation. The ideal situation is one in which the market is divided equally amongst all competitors... each gaining their respective share of the market based on offering the best technology... (as opposed to which one can utilize illegal business practices to dominate it.)

BTW, Apple's products aren't characterized solely by their shape. Each computer has unique differentiating hardware and software characteristics which do that.


"I want alternatives to MS like everyone else but Apple isn't it."

Apple should indeed be one of those alternatives.

Actually, Apple does go after the business crowd.

How can you believe this? Is it that difficult to admit Apple's faults? What is their answer to office? Small business server? SQL server? Where are their commercials targeting businesses? Apple has some strong points but business software isn't one of them.

they are targeting the same consumers that every other PC manufacturer does.

No they aren't. If they were, they would have had something like the mac-mini out about 5 years ago and at a comparable price to a Dell PC. They would rather be trendy than aggressive, and I think their history shows this well.

Apple isn't complaining about it... yet I'm sure they want more of it. If Apple's complaining, its not that Microsoft got more of the market but that Microsoft acquired more of the market by using illegal and anticompetitive business practices to achieve that dominance.

There may be no official complaint but the point is that releasing OS/X on pc could deal a blow to Microsoft's ability to dominate the market, legally or illegally.

Apple is not a step up from MS. It's just a different, smaller and trendier version of MS. Look at how long it took them to admit that the two-button mouse is better, and now they want $45 for a two-button mouse that still looks like a one-button mouse. I really don't see why so many people are such fanatics for that type of a company.

Until Mac can compete with the $300 Dell, the market will continue to choose PCs.

The problem here isn't that they were too inexpensive, it's that these people were socially maladjusted. All increasing the cost would do is serve to exclude people with less money. Yes, that would of course reduce the population, and if the population were amply reduced there would be no turmoil. That's not exactly a very egalitarian way of solving a social problem, though. Problems could have been avoided by selling them on ebay, too.

I agree. All too human.

Where have we come as a race that we trample, step on and hit our fellow man for a cheap, and somewhat antiquated, computer?


Totally, like, it's not a Who concert.

um... if they were 1000 dell laptops for 50 dollars this would have happened as well.

So why do you want 2Ghz of processing power, and more than 256Mb RAM?????

One thing I will not deny though is that Apples hold resale like a BMW. Used Apples are definately worth more than a used PCs.

You know I used to wonder about this, but now looking at my mini I realise something : Macs have personality. I would find it a lot more difficult to sell it than my pc's. The only other computer I've kept is my Amiga, another computer with personality, while my pc's on the other hand get junked, stripped for parts, given away or just plain thrown away. Now it's not such a mistery to me.

Corollary : second hand Macs tend to better cared for because they come from a loving home :-)

"c: There is a lot of pent up demand in the low end if Apple can find a profitable way to tap it."

Mac mini.

> Why don't you hear things like this breaking out at a Dell sale?

"Hey, that's MY boring, generic, black-and-grey commodity PC!"

"No way, dude! That's MY boring, generic, black-and-grey commodity PC!

"Arrrgh!"

"I'll kill ya!"

*pow* *crunch* *blammo*

Happens all the time.

I have no doubt that ebay will be flooded with ibooks in a day or so.

"Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall down an open manhole cover and die."

Mel Brooks

You ever been caught in one of these things, during hockey playoffs or outdoor concert event?

I actually have been caught in scuffles worse than this (in a anti-rasist protest). A few people have scrapes and cuts ? Stop the presses ! Just leave, apparently this is exactly what most sane people did.

Seeing people step on old ladies for a $50 computer you can do 2 things laugh or cry, I prefer to laugh. (It helps if you're a bit cynical too.)

Well at that point we no longer call it linux zealotry. Instead it's just good old fasion communism.

No...it's called sharing.

Alot of Linux apps support the spelling-as-you-type as well. I think Firefox even has an extension that creates the same feature.

I know it at least works with Gaim, Abiword, Evolution, etc.

You are making, or perhaps illustrating, exactly the point. Read it again and imagine you are listening to someone talk about their brand of whiskey, or maybe their brand of luggage. Vuitton is just so cool, Samsonite is boring. Now Johnny Walker, that's a brand. or is it Coke and Pepsi?

I'm sure Mac zealots really believe that macs are cool and windows is boring, but this is the problem. This is what it means to be an irrational zealot and cult member. It feels from the inside like you have found truth, and all the idiots around you cannot see it, and you are one of a group of better more enlightened people. Yes, we all know this is how it feels. The more people say it the better we understand this is how it feels.

But what has really happened is, you've fallen hook line and sinker for, and keep repeating to the rest of us, a consumer marketing strategy.

I used to be a mac user too - back in the days when Apple was a computer company, and not a designer brand. But I'll never buy another as long as they position themselves as they are now. And by the way - Toyota or Honda, not BMW. And Samsonite, not Vuitton. For the same reason.

50%? Whatever. It's not that they don't get them it because the market is so small virus writers haven't targeted them. I don't use anti-malware and I don't have a problem

Not really, imagine the bragging rights or the juicy data Mac users have on their machines because they think it's secure.

I think by now with Mac OS X being out for years that someone would have done something. Look how long it took to make Mac OS X run on generic PC's, what a few weeks?

Mac's are secure by default, through their core as well, like a hard boiled egg.

WinPC's are like raw eggs, a thin shell with a mushy interior.

FreeBSD Unix is a tough nut to crack, but there has been a few holes in Mac OS X itself when it first launched, now we mostly get holes in Apache, Javascript, M$ products and a occasional application.

Guess true security starts at home huh?


(Just say NO to IE!)

I'll agree and raise you, "Just say no to Microsoft" because most of their programs have some sort of insecurity, even on Mac's!

http://www.ciac.org/ciac/bulletinsByType/vndr_ms_bulletins.html

As a Mac user I actually welcome Linux, if I was a programmer I would think it interesting to mess around and customize my OS.

But since I'm not and make my money in real estate, it's a waste of time for me. I need my computers to work, work well and give me what I need fast, especially manipulating video, graphics etc and the Mac excels at this.

I think Linux would make a excellent replacement for Windows.