Linked by Andrew Youll on Sat 27th Aug 2005 11:57 UTC, submitted by ajam
Windows Microsoft's Professional Developers Conference is expected to be a coming out party of sorts for the next version of Visual Studio, code-named Orcas. Primary among the new features in and new direction for Orcas will be advances in how the toolset handles data, sources said. Data becomes "cool" in Orcas, said a source familiar with Microsoft's strategy for Orcas.
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Shawn
by binarycrusader on Sat 27th Aug 2005 12:50 UTC
binarycrusader
Member since:
2005-07-06

I've been using Visual Studio off and on over the years, some more than others. People knock Microsoft a lot for various things, but very few developers can deny that they have a great set of development tools.

My main problem with the Visual Studio tools is price. Buying a commercial license is very expensive at the moment, since you have to buy a whole suite to even get optimizing compilers, you can't just buy the language support you need!

I could only hope that a development environment like Visual Studio (and just as polished...intellisense, etc.) existed on other operating systems. Right now, KDevelop, Anjuta come closest, but are still far away in stability, polish, and features. And no, in my experience Eclipse, NetBeans, etc. don't cut it either, at least not for anything but Java...

Does anyone else here know of an alternative?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Shawn
by Clinton on Sun 28th Aug 2005 07:23 UTC in reply to "Shawn"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

If you are doing C# or VB programming, then I've heard SharpDevelop is pretty good, but I don't know if that's true or not.

I've never used SharpDevelop myself since I don't use those languages.

Reply Score: 1

Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sat 27th Aug 2005 12:53 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

The vast majority of systems in the world today are legacy systems not more than a few years old, and in the Windows world, are mostly based on COM, COM+ etc. We have to work with them, companies depend on them and the reality is things need to be done with them. No one has time these days to re-write everything and keep up with the latest development tools that Microsoft wants people to have wet dreams over. For crying out loud, people have only really just started looking at .Net starting with VS 2003 and they're only just dipping their toes in with backwards-compatibility firmly in mind.

Either Microsoft learns that or they're simply going to lose most of their developer community over the next few years to competing companies and development tools that actually share their concerns. Microsoft has made it quite clear that they don't.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 14:04 UTC in reply to "Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
Anonymous Member since:
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XML and web services are not simply wet dreams, they are far faster and easier to handle than DCOM, MTS etc.

At least using web services its cross platform, you can host em on any platform not as easy with DCOM.

COM certinally isnt going away anytime in the next 5 to 10 years but lots of NEW developments are moving on. Time to market is getting shorter and shorter.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 14:46 UTC in reply to "Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
Anonymous Member since:
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Dude. Do you think technology should stand still for the sake of backwards compatibility? You can still call COM from .net anyway so I don't know why you're whining. .net is so much more productive than old style COM develeopment, it would be retarded to keep doing things the same way.

And if you're at a company that just does legacy crap, maybe it's time for a new job?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by sappyvcv on Sat 27th Aug 2005 14:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

People just like to bitch about Microsoft of course. With VS.net, they actually offering a pretty damn sweet product with some innovation, so people have to find something about it to bitch about.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sat 27th Aug 2005 17:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
RE[3]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sat 27th Aug 2005 18:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Nicely modded down comment without any replies ;-).

Thanks. I'll take that as a clear indication I'm right.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by StephenBeDoper on Sat 27th Aug 2005 22:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks. I'll take that as a clear indication I'm right.

Wait... is this OSNews, or did I just wander into the middle of recess in an elementary school?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by japail on Sat 27th Aug 2005 23:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

Your first post was reasonable (so I modded it up) but the second is inflammatory (so I've left it alone). If you write a factually correct response that doesn't entail delusions of granduer and decrying others as mentally deficient it might fair better.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by japail on Sat 27th Aug 2005 23:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

Please excuse the malapropism. That should read "fare better."

Reply Score: 1

RE: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 15:54 UTC in reply to "Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

Now I understand why you have a tough time dealing with reality Seg. You just don't live in it.

According to your post, things like VC++6 just go away when Microsoft comes out with something new. And Microsoft should just sit on their hands while they wait for people to ditch their legacy systems.

Microsoft has nothing to learn from you.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sat 27th Aug 2005 18:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
RE[3]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 18:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

Older systems still need to be maintained and eventually migrated seamlessly, and as Microsoft has ended support (that one vendor thing again) for Visual Studio 6 companies are naturally looking at what is supported.

Nobody cares about support for VC6. People just use it.

The new supported tools provide absolutely woeful backwards compatibility and migration support.

What's funny about your cluelessness is that Microsoft retains better backward compatibility then Linux ever will. Is there support for that KDE 2.x app or that Gtk 1.x app? I didn't think so.

People in the real world, in real companies, do not rewrite everything from scratch. That's a reality that everyone here, and in Microsoft's marketing department, seem to be totally missing.

And that's why the legacy win32 subystem will still be there when Vista comes out.

'm sincerely glad that you think that, and I hope Microsoft does too, because they're not learning from themselves. Previous Microsoft software has always given good, as solid as possible, backwards compatible and migration support.

Haha, Microsoft has $40b in the bank and now they should take some advice from a KDE fanboy like you. Too funny. You're as delusional as ever, thanks for the laugh.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sat 27th Aug 2005 19:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Nobody cares about support for VC6. People just use it.

In transition to any new technology for future proofing backwards compatibility and migration support is always required. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, as per usual.

Besides, it isn't just old versions of Visual Studio to new ones. It is stuff like COM+ and surrounding technology as well.

What's funny about your cluelessness is that Microsoft retains better backward compatibility then Linux ever will. Is there support for that KDE 2.x app or that Gtk 1.x app? I didn't think so.

In case it had slipped that walnut sized brain of yours, this is not a discussion about Linux.

And that's why the legacy win32 subystem will still be there when Vista comes out.

That's not the issue here. This is about development tools and support.

Haha, Microsoft has $40b in the bank and now they should take some advice from a KDE fanboy like you.

No matter how much money Microsoft has, it's irrelevant to the discussion. I've explained why Microsoft are getting it wrong, you explain why they're right. Easy, eh?

One of these days you might be educated as to how this debate thing works.

You're as delusional as ever, thanks for the laugh.

Likewise.

The modding down of comments without adequate replies tells me a lot about the calibre of professional we get around here - i.e. non-existant.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 19:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

In transition to any new technology for future proofing backwards compatibility and migration support is always required. You haven't got a clue what you're talking about, as per usual.

Let me explain this to you in simple terms, since you have such a hard time comprehending simple concepts. VS6 has been out for 7 or 8 years now. Nobody cares about support for VS6. Companies are already aware of all issues surrounding it.

In case it had slipped that walnut sized brain of yours, this is not a discussion about Linux.

It's always about linux with you open source/KDE fanboys. And I stated before Microsoft's backward compatibility is light-years ahead of Linux even with the source code.

That's not the issue here. This is about development tools and support.

And once again, there are no support issues with VS6. You might wish there was in order to promote your open source fanboy agenda, but nobody cares.

No matter how much money Microsoft has, it's irrelevant to the discussion. I've explained why Microsoft are getting it wrong, you explain why they're right. Easy, eh?

I advise you to go contact Microsoft with your advice. They'll probably fire Ballmer and make you CEO. You fanboys are so funny.

The modding down of comments without adequate replies tells me a lot about the calibre of professional we get around here - i.e. non-existant.

You were probably modded down because everybody knows how clueless you are. Go back to your mom's basement programming where you and the other fanboys can cry and moan about microsoft.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sat 27th Aug 2005 20:47 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Let me explain this to you in simple terms, since you have such a hard time comprehending simple concepts. VS6 has been out for 7 or 8 years now. Nobody cares about support for VS6.

There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of systems written with it that you can't just rewrite. Did I mention that people in the real world can't just rewrite systems? And all those MVPs and other Microsoft developers (you know, people actually doing development for a living) quite clearly do care.

You need to get out and get your ear to the ground a hell of a lot more, but of course, since you don't because you don't do any real world development you can't.

It's always about linux with you open source/KDE fanboys.

Funny. I never mentioned it once.

And once again, there are no support issues with VS6.

There are, and you're obviously not fit to comment on them because you have no idea what's actually going on.

You might wish there was in order to promote your open source fanboy agenda

You've got a bee in your bonnet about open source for some reason. I suggest you remove it before commenting further.

I advise you to go contact Microsoft with your advice.

Many MVPs and developers developing in the real world already have.

They'll probably fire Ballmer and make you CEO. You fanboys are so funny.

Funny. Calling others fanboys does not make you any less of a one. Have you not learned that yet?

You were probably modded down because everybody knows how clueless you are.

Nope, it merely reflects the average experience of OSNews readers.

Go back to your mom's basement programming

Funny, because that's obviously the extent of your development experience.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Anonymous on Sun 28th Aug 2005 03:11 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
Anonymous Member since:
---

There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands of systems written with it that you can't just rewrite. Did I mention that people in the real world can't just rewrite systems?

What reason do they have to rewrite their code exactly ?

just because there is a new version of visual studio does not mean that existing applications have stopped working.

It also does not mean that VS6 has stopped working.

And all those MVPs and other Microsoft developers (you know, people actually doing development for a living) quite clearly do care.

Ok this is really not that hard. First if you are talking VC++ then you can still write code like you used to do using VS.NET, its called 'unmanaged code'.

If you need a mix or you need to support legacy functionality then you can use the COM interop or p/invoke to call your existing code that was authored in vs6.

You need to get out and get your ear to the ground a hell of a lot more, but of course, since you don't because you don't do any real world development you can't.

I have no idea about that guy but I do real development and its not a nightmare by any stretch.

If you are expecting to just load your VS6 projects in VS.NET and click 'build' you will find you need to make changes and depending on how you wrote your application then yes you might have hell.

If you wrote your application correctly to begin with you will not have a major problem fitting VS.NET into your development cycle and you'll find you can still use your existing investment in components.

Its the wannabes and posers that bitch about new compiler releases and cry about how the sh*tty apps they wrote broke.

Real developers just get the f*cking job done.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[7]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
RE[8]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by segedunum on Sun 28th Aug 2005 01:07 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Nobody has to migrate until they're ready.

Thanks for the obviousness there. But people don't just migrate large systems. It is always a stepped and steady migration using the systems they already have in place. New systems written with new technology have to integrate and morph seamlessly with the old. You don't do that by rewriting, and no one who wants to keep their job or contract does.

Direction on that, while not critical to a programmer in their bedroom, is critical to any organisation.

The fact that I might be personally fine with new .Net development is absolutely irrelevant to the wider issues. It doesn't matter if the old ways are broken as some people call it. There are many industries that have had broken methods, and they have simply had to deal with the issues because those methods have been used in the past and there is a legacy. That's where software is heading as an industry - where other industries are now. It will hurt Microsoft, but that's the way it is.

They don't need Microsoft to hold their hands.

Wow really, because it's Microsoft's technology?!

I was doing professional linux development probably before you popped in your first Mandrake CD and thought you were cool because you were now on Unix.

Whether you did or not is pretty irrelevant because you have no clue whatsoever how people actually migrate systems and use new technology out there in the world.

Maybe you would like to explain these "support" issues that you've magically conjured up.

1. Seamless migration and maintenance of existing code without rewriting - something no professional developer does. As the petition states:

http://classicvb.org/petition/faq.asp

It is a dangerous precedent for Microsoft to essentially dictate that systems and data are disposable. That is something that customers and companies will decide for themselves, not Microsoft.

2. VBA support and future proofing is extremely sketchy.
3. Simple confusion and a total mess over what .Net is, what is written with it and its future direction in the not-too-distant future. COM+ is still used with .Net currently, but the proposed ditching of it for Indigo (whatever it actually is) isn't helping anyone.
4. Simply using COM etc. as it stands is uncertain. Something somewhere will break a third-party component at some point or something new will break something old, and Microsoft won't care. With stuff like COBOL it is still supported by many vendors after many decades.

In short, as wonderful as many people think it is to have something completely new and fresh and wander off on to the lush new green grass, it simply isn't practical. These people, and software as an industry, are simply gowing to have to grow up and mature as other industries have done regarding this.

That is why COBOL and mainframe technologies crap over anything Microsoft or PC based in terms of age, and why Java (multiple vendors and multiple implementations) and any open sourced development tool (Qt etc.) will increasingly become the more attractive option. Even if one vendor wants to end of life it, if the vast majority of customers don't want that then due to demand there will always be a company, piece of software or product that can help them.

That's the lesson to draw out of all of this, and one you seem to be mightily irritated by.

VBers, for the most part, and they can either stick with the existing systems and tools that they have or move on. It's simple.

Right......and how do these people move from one to the other? In any real environment you can't just jump from one pit to another completely different one. And as they're using an exclusively Microsoft technology, what happens when something new breaks something old? That's been my whole point.

Well, we all know you're an open source/KDE fanboy so it's obvious that you'll conjure up any kind of fantasy grievance against Microsoft.

It's funny that I've done no such thing here and you're trying to do it going the other way. Do you not realise what you're actualy doing?! Look up the word ironic in the dictionary.

...before it got overrrun by Open Sores fandorks.

Right.....

I question if you have *any* development experience, much less real-world, because obviously you live in fantasy-land.

Real world development simply doesn't happen the way you think it does, and if you recommend some of the things you've done you'll be out of any job fairly quickly.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by StephenBeDoper on Sat 27th Aug 2005 22:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

The modding down of comments without adequate replies tells me a lot about the calibre of professional we get around here - i.e. non-existant.

Then perhaps maybe you should post your comments in a forum with a higher standard of debate. I would suggest the Platform Advocacy forum on Ars Technica ( http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/ubb.x?a=frm&s=50009562&f=484095... ). Quite a few professional developers post there, including a couple of Microsoft employees.

I'll be keeping an eye out for your post, assuming you're interested in anything other than acting superior to the uninformed kiddies who around post here.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn
by japail on Sat 27th Aug 2005 23:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Yawn, Yawn, Yawn"
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

I like how you engage in "acting superior to the uninformed kiddies who around post here," while chastising him for it. Delicious.

Reply Score: 1

Vi
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 13:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Used to like visual studio and the IDE thing until I got a handle on VI. Sometimes simplicity is power.

Am I the only one that finds all the 'new' microsoft tech overwhelmingly boring.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Vi
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 14:44 UTC in reply to "Vi"
RE: Vi
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 16:05 UTC in reply to "Vi"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

Vi sucks as a development tool. The only thing good about it are the keybindings. I use Vim for ruby programming because there are no decent development environments out there.

But is quite funny that certain people think they're hardcore because they use Vim or Emacs.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vi
by Anonymous on Sun 28th Aug 2005 07:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Vi"
Anonymous Member since:
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What? VI is an awesome development tool. It is also a great editor, especially for doing long, menial tasks.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Vi
by irasnyd on Sat 27th Aug 2005 18:01 UTC in reply to "Vi"
irasnyd Member since:
2005-07-06

NOTE: This is about the MSVC++ 6.0 UI. I have no experience with the .NET UI.

I like vi's keyboard commands better for the most part, but there are a few things that I would like in vi, such as the search tool that MSVC has. I do have my gripes with MS's search tool though: it outputs the complete filename before the code that matched, and if you've got you're stuff organized into folders, it can get quite hard to read without scrolling the search window. And I hate reaching for my mouse when I'm working, it interrupts me too much. I use grep to do my searching, and it works even better. Note that I don't exactly think that search functionality should be re-invented in an editor, that's the wrong place for it. It's just something I miss. Maybe an interface to grep in part of the vi window would be cool.

Another thing I like about vi is the highlighting (I use the desert colorscheme), which is easier on my eyes than the MSVC highlighting.

The main reason I don't like VC is the amount I have to use the mouse. Now, I know that VC has lots of keyboard shortcuts, but heck, I only have to use VC for the summer (intern job) so I'm not going to bother learning another keyboard interface.

The only thing I don't like in vi is that I can't just "jump around between functions" like you can in the Eclipse IDE. If I'm dealing with a lot of new code where I have to fix bugs, I'll often use Eclipse, just because I can find the function I want with extreme ease. Once I've got enough knowledge about the program, I go back to vi though.

And to the other people commenting about this, I don't think that I'm "hardcore" because I use vi. That's a stupid reason to use an editor. I use it because it's easier for me to use.

Reply Score: 1

v @Vi
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 13:26 UTC
Compile and Execute
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 14:31 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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At Uni I was taught C++ using VS 6.0. The computers at Uni have both VS6.0 and VS.net, as soon as I tried to compile and execute on VS.Net I said to myself "how the hell do you do this?!" No menu item has the word compile anywhere?

I wish the interface was backwards compatible.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Compile and Execute
by Varg Vikernes on Sat 27th Aug 2005 20:40 UTC in reply to "Compile and Execute"
Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

as soon as I tried to compile and execute on VS.Net I said to myself "how the hell do you do this?!" No menu item has the word compile anywhere?

If you don't know your way around menus then I seriously doubt you have any stand in critisizing VS. Btw, it's under Build.

Reply Score: 1

v So, what is this supposed to BE?
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 14:33 UTC
Anonymous Member since:
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[i]VS uses Unix line endings exclusively, and everything else in Windows (including Notepad) completely barfs them up.</>

Use Wordpad

Reply Score: 0

Re: Fox in Microsoft's Tool-Suite Coop
by Marcellus on Sat 27th Aug 2005 15:08 UTC
Marcellus
Member since:
2005-08-26

Recently at work we started evaluating various IDE's to see if we could replace our current VS 6.0 setups with something that doesn't add extra costs.
Our target platform is not Windows, so there's no reason why we have to use Visual Studio really.

After looking at KDevelop, Anjuta and Eclipse (as well as commercial IDE's like CodeForge and Borland's stuff) we concluded that any upgrade would be to a newer VS version. KDevelop was closest to being usable of the free tools, but it was simply not good enough now.

Personally I'm waiting for VS2k5 to be released and hopefully I can get it cheap or free through school. If not, I think I'd rather wait for Orcas. At least if Orcas is slated for release around the same time as Vista. Too short time between releases for it to be worth doing a full price upgrade to 2k5, and then later to Orcas, even if an upgrade to that is likely to be cheaper.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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After looking at KDevelop, Anjuta and Eclipse (as well as commercial IDE's like CodeForge and Borland's stuff) we concluded that any upgrade would be to a newer VS version. KDevelop was closest to being usable of the free tools, but it was simply not good enough now.

How is it that people can compare KDevelop to VS? Even if one is significantly better than the other, since they run on different platforms, doesn't the choice of platforms kind of dictate which one you're going to use? For example, if your primarly/only platform of development is Windows, how the hell can you use KDevelop on that? And vice versa?

And for all you vi fanatics, trolling aside, is coding in this thing really faster than a full-blown IDE? I'm sure it's possible to code a GUI using only a text editor, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to ;)

Reply Score: 0

Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

For example, if your primarly/only platform of development is Windows, how the hell can you use KDevelop on that? And vice versa?

According to his post, it seems that they're probably just writing a lot of crossplatform C/C++ so it doesn't really matter what they develop in.

And for all you vi fanatics, trolling aside, is coding in this thing really faster than a full-blown IDE? I'm sure it's possible to code a GUI using only a text editor, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to ;)

There's nothing faster than vi(m) for pure "coding", but Vi(m) is just a text editor and not a development environment. Eclipse has vi keybindings, and I believe IDEA does too. The problem with Vim and Emacs is that at their heart, they're just console programs. Unfortunately, nobody has ripped out the guts of vim into a proper library....well, I think the successor to kvim might be doing something like that but not sure. But that's not surprising considering that you have stuff like #ifdef VMS and other obscure platforms still being supported where parts of the c standard library have to be rewritten to support quirky compilers on said obscure platforms.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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There's nothing faster than vi(m) for pure "coding", but Vi(m) is just a text editor and not a development environment.

Yes, this is one of the big things that really bother me about IDEs: no good editor. If VS.NET had a vim style editor indside of it, it would be one of the best IDE's out there. Unfortunately, it doesn't and I wind up wasting a lot of time typing "j" and "k" all over the place.

Another thing that bother's me about IDE's is limited language support. VS.NET has support for it's particular languages, but has no support for other languages.

One thing you have to keep in mind though (and I'm speaking mostly to the grandparent) is that a lot of people do not write the same type of code you write. Embedded systems is a really big market, and most of that code is not gui code, so using something like VS.NET is kind of pointless in those markets. VS.NET is great for certian markets (i.e. Windows Applications), but is not that great for other markets (i.e. embedded and real time systems).

Reply Score: 0

Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

One thing you have to keep in mind though (and I'm speaking mostly to the grandparent) is that a lot of people do not write the same type of code you write. Embedded systems is a really big market, and most of that code is not gui code, so using something like VS.NET is kind of pointless in those markets.

If you're writing fairly portable C code then it doesn't matter what you develop in. It's not pointless if they have decided that they are productive in VS. And there's probably 3rd party plugins for various embedded environments.

Reply Score: 1

Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

"Another thing that bother's me about IDE's is limited language support. VS.NET has support for it's particular languages, but has no support for other languages. "

Visual Studio don't have direct built-in support for other languages, true. It is however possible to create IDE plug-in's AFAIK.
I can't point you to any resources about how to make such plug-in's, but as an example look up ActiveState's python and perl plug-in's for VS.

Reply Score: 1

Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

A little quick searching around and I found this site that should have information about how to extend VS to support other languages than the builtin ones. As far as I can tell, it should be even be possible to make a VI-like editor for visual studio.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/extend/

Reply Score: 1

RE: Extending Visual Studio
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 19:05 UTC in reply to "Extending Visual Studio"
Anonymous Member since:
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Except that you must pay for it....At least, for the VS.NET part...may be 2005 will be free (it is right now, but beta, you know....)

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Extending Visual Studio
by Marcellus on Sat 27th Aug 2005 19:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Extending Visual Studio"
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

"Except that you must pay for it....At least, for the VS.NET part...may be 2005 will be free (it is right now, but beta, you know....)"

Maybe I'm just blind, but I didn't see anything about having to pay to get the stuff needed to make VS extensions.

If you mean that you have to pay for Visual Studio itself, well duh ;p
I was merely pointing out that it is possible to extend Visual Studio as someone complained that it only has support for certain languages built in.

Reply Score: 1

japail Member since:
2005-06-30

Also there's SML.NET's VS integration:
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/Research/TSG/SMLNET/vs.html

Reply Score: 1

Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

"How is it that people can compare KDevelop to VS? Even if one is significantly better than the other, since they run on different platforms, doesn't the choice of platforms kind of dictate which one you're going to use? For example, if your primarly/only platform of development is Windows, how the hell can you use KDevelop on that? And vice versa?"

We are using Windows only because we are using Visual Studio.
It would be no problem at all switching to *BSD or GNU/Linux, if that would be necessary for a switch to another IDE.

And I believe you can run KDevelop through cygwin (urgh) if necessary.

Reply Score: 1

Shawn
by kwanbis on Sat 27th Aug 2005 17:38 UTC
kwanbis
Member since:
2005-07-06

"I've been using Visual Studio off and on over the years, some more than others. People knock Microsoft a lot for various things, but very few developers can deny that they have a great set of development tools."

the problem i have with microsoft tools, is that they made it by stealing people from other companies. years ago, microsoft C was trounced time and again by borland tools, so microsoft stole the main developers from borland, taking advantage of the great deal of money they had. they finally settle out of court, bu borland almost never recovered. so the problem with microsoft is the anthietic practices they allways do.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Shawn
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 17:48 UTC in reply to "Shawn"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

the problem i have with microsoft tools, is that they made it by stealing people from other companies.

Lay off the pipe. Microsoft didn't "steal people". They offered them a job.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Shawn
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 20:20 UTC in reply to "Shawn"
Anonymous Member since:
---

the problem i have with microsoft tools, is that they made it by stealing people from other companies. years ago, microsoft C was trounced time and again by borland tools, so microsoft stole the main developers from borland, taking advantage of the great deal of money they had. they finally settle out of court, bu borland almost never recovered. so the problem with microsoft is the anthietic practices they allways do.

LOL. Give it a break.

Offering some one a better paying job is "stealing" someone ?

When you grow up and move out of your parents house you'll truly understand how this stuff works.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Shawn
by ickus on Sat 27th Aug 2005 20:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Shawn"
ickus Member since:
2005-08-16

So then why is MS suing Google? They just offered him a job, in China.
Borland should have used the same line of thought MS is using with google.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Shawn
by Varg Vikernes on Sat 27th Aug 2005 20:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Shawn"
Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

Those 2 events are _completely_ unrelated - in any form I can think off. Just FYI Microsoft sued Google, because the china guy had a contract with them to work there for xx years or something... I can't remember correctly right now. Anyway, he signed it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Shawn
by Anonymous on Sun 28th Aug 2005 03:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Shawn"
Anonymous Member since:
---

So then why is MS suing Google? They just offered him a job, in China.

Cause they had the guy sign an agreement or a "covenant not to compete" as they like to call them (not worth signin EVER)

Borland should have used the same line of thought MS is using with google.

Just another example of the mistakes Borland was making back then.

I loved Borland and was using Borland tools long before MS tools. For a spell there they really lost focus on their core audience.

Reply Score: 0

kdevelop, anjuta, etc.
by Anonymous on Sat 27th Aug 2005 21:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Visual Studio only runs on a proprietory OS and doesn't provide enough for what you pay. If you are looking for a great IDE that's free and flexible try out kdevelop or anjuta. Both IDEs have become very impressive.

Reply Score: 0

RE: kdevelop, anjuta, etc.
by sappyvcv on Sat 27th Aug 2005 22:29 UTC in reply to "kdevelop, anjuta, etc."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

But not nearly as impressive and powerful as VS.net.

If you think otherwise, you've obviously never used VS.net for any actual projects.

Reply Score: 1

RE: kdevelop, anjuta, etc.
by Lumbergh on Sat 27th Aug 2005 23:20 UTC in reply to "kdevelop, anjuta, etc."
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

Kdevelop and Anjuta aren't even in the same league as VS, but unless Kdevelop has been ported to windows then you're locked into Unix as much as the VS guy is locked into windows.

Of course, you can probably crosscompile for both platforms though.

Nobody can really put an integrated package like Microsoft can because nobody else has the resources and the ability to hook into the operating system as much.

Reply Score: 1

VS.NET
by Anonymous on Sun 28th Aug 2005 09:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

VS 2003 has only usable editor and debuger. For ASP.NET development is unusable - you can not use build in designer. Debuger sometimes is hell slow. Visual Source Safe sucks.

Reply Score: 0

Visual Factories.
by Anonymous on Sun 28th Aug 2005 15:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

"Visual Studio, code-named Orcas. Primary among the new features in and new direction for Orcas will be advances in how the toolset handles data, sources said. Data becomes "cool" in Orcas, said a source familiar with Microsoft's strategy for Orcas."

Isn't Visual Studio part of their Software Factory goal?

Reply Score: 0

Hm
by sappyvcv on Mon 29th Aug 2005 06:31 UTC
sappyvcv
Member since:
2005-07-06

It seems like seged is now just talking about development in general. These issues he talks about are issues, but minor ones, and NOT vs.net specific at all.

What a joke. He keeps spread his argument until he starts saying something true and hopes no one notices his argument has substantially shifted.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Hm
by segedunum on Mon 29th Aug 2005 21:05 UTC in reply to "Hm"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

These issues he talks about are issues, but minor ones, and NOT vs.net specific at all.

It's peripheral - but very related, and they are certainly not minor by any stretch of the imagination.

What a joke. He keeps spread his argument until he starts saying something true and hopes no one notices his argument has substantially shifted.

The argument certainly hasn't shifted, but you wish it had.

Reply Score: 1