Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 13th Sep 2005 20:39 UTC, submitted by DigitalDame
Windows This week, Microsoft is handing out Vista build 5219 at its Professional Developers Conference in Los Angeles. PC Magazine was able to get their hands on it, trying out a number of new features and observing some slick-looking interface enhancements, such as true 3D windows views (with properly skewed video), thumbnail views for desktop apps, and a semi-transparent Taskbar. Take the guided tour to witness some of these new features in build 5219.
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Appealing?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 20:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The article says Vista looks "appealing", but my dislike for the general ugliness of the OS is increasing exponentially. All the shiny colours, fancy effects, etc just look distracting to me, though I guess it'll have to wait until we can see the finished thing. I mean, it might not be black, red, blue, and green in the finished product all at once.

Reply Score: 0

Thoughts...
by Roguelazer on Tue 13th Sep 2005 20:58 UTC
Roguelazer
Member since:
2005-06-29

I was interested by the section on TPM support. Volume encryption through a chip could be very bad for alternative operating systems. That means that without TPM drivers, the entire volume is inaccessable from any OS at all, even if you do know the password.

The IE screenshot was really ugly. Whoever told the Microsoft UI developers that white on light green was a good color for text deserves to be shot. Not that I intend to actually use IE7, but I thought I'd bring it up.

Drag-and-drop finally shows thumbnails. Welcome to, um, whichever century it is that we're in now Microsoft.

Turning windows on their sides is rather pointless. I presume that this is merely a technical demonstration (like the wobbly windows in luminocity).

Translucent taskbar... Yawn...

The thumbnails above the taskbar icons is kind of cool, though. I guess I'll begrudge Microsoft devs one point for that.

As bad as Vista is, it does appear to be an improvement over XP. So at least give them credit for trying. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Thoughts...
by orestes on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:36 UTC in reply to "Thoughts..."
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

Whoever told the Microsoft UI developers that white on light green was a good color for text deserves to be shot.

Shooting is a little harsh (not to mention quick).
A nice public caning session would be far more effective at driving home the point.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Thoughts...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 22:04 UTC in reply to "Thoughts..."
Anonymous Member since:
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"The thumbnails above the taskbar icons is kind of cool, though. I guess I'll begrudge Microsoft devs one point for that."

Nothing original about this feature. This is already availalbe on KDE, so take that one point away!

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thoughts...
by archiesteel on Wed 14th Sep 2005 04:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Thoughts..."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Is it? Which version? 3.5? That sounds cool.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Thoughts...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thoughts..."
Anonymous Member since:
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No its been there since version 3.2 in KDE. Its an app called mtaskbar. It does some nice effects with the text and the taskbar buttons themselves -- other than showing you the thumbnail of running app!

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Thoughts...
by archiesteel on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Thoughts..."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Yeah, I looked at it...to be fair, it's a KDE app but not part of the basic KDE configuration. I had to compile it to try it out (no RPMs for Mandrake). Worked well, though there was a snag with video apps (had to add them to the exception list). Other than that it's pretty good, though there's a bit of work to be done yet before it's officially part of KDE!

Still, it's the proof that it can easily be done (and has been) for KDE by a single programmer...

Yes, for those who wonder, it's the first thing I did after posting my original comment!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Thoughts...
by kaiwai on Tue 13th Sep 2005 23:27 UTC in reply to "Thoughts..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I was interested by the section on TPM support. Volume encryption through a chip could be very bad for alternative operating systems. That means that without TPM drivers, the entire volume is inaccessable from any OS at all, even if you do know the password.

I hope you realise that encrypted file systems are only enabled if you chose to enable it - Bill Gates isn't going to come to your house, in the middle of the night, and place a gun to your head whilst screaming, "encrypt that volume so you can't access from your *NIX environment!"

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thoughts...
by Roguelazer on Wed 14th Sep 2005 01:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Thoughts..."
Roguelazer Member since:
2005-06-29

Truly? It seemed to me more like the default would be that the volume would be encrypted... If so, that's at least marginally better. 99.99999% of users don't even know what "encryption" means, so less headaches if trying to debug a b0rked system...

PS: Yes, I know that FileVault encrypts volumes on OS X. Actually, it encryptes folders by creating an encrypted loopback device kinda thing and mounting that as the desired folder. Irrelevant. At least AES is an algorithm that people can deal with. Whatever TPM uses for encryption will doubtless be much nastier.

Reply Score: 1

v Why all the MS articles?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:01 UTC
RE: Why all the MS articles?
by sappyvcv on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:16 UTC in reply to "Why all the MS articles?"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh I don't know.. maybe.. because PDC05 is going on today?

Reply Score: 2

RE: Why all the MS articles?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 01:57 UTC in reply to "Why all the MS articles?"
Anonymous Member since:
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You're new here, aren't you?

d^lºb

Reply Score: 0

v WTF
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:02 UTC
RE: WTF
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:06 UTC in reply to "WTF"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

It's the PDC guys-- I cannot help it. This is major news about the most-used and most succesful operating system in the history of computing.

Can't help it. Don't kill the mesenger.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: WTF
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:12 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF"
RE[3]: WTF
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: WTF"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You guys have a choice.

I'm sorry, but news is news. The PDC is a huge event, and we'd be a bad newssite if we were to not post important Windows news just because we might step on the toes of some anti-MS people.

Can we now get back on topic? Else this thread will be cleaned.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: WTF
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 22:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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"You guys have a choice."

They probably do.

However, at least I come hear to read news and if there is an event like the PDC it should better be covered here.

If I'm not interested in the article, like in most windows articles, I simply don't read them, so what exactly is the problem?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: WTF
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 03:54 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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First off, I am a *nix user. With with respect to all the "wtf" statements:

1) Its the PDC, its a major event.
2) This is going to be the next version that consumers will have on their desktops for the next 5-10 years.

Actually, I do have a slightly curious about the system with respect too:
1) TPM
2) What needs a graphics card with 128-256 megs of ram
3) 2 gigs of ram

I will only be running it if the company that I work for has it installed. FYI: my current company won't be running it at all, they are just starting to upgrade to XP. The wooping system specs are PII with 128 megs of ram. Some how, I just can not see it happening in alot of organizations.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: WTF
by sappyvcv on Wed 14th Sep 2005 04:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: WTF"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

It won't need 2gigs of ram, and you can still run on on a lower-end card, just not with all the bells and whistles (which most people think look ugly anyway).

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: WTF
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 04:15 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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Hello sappyvcv,

I am curious about all the bells and whistles. I am aware that you might have a choice of 3 modes; from what I have heard and read.

I want to see this system all decked out and pushed to the limits for those requirments. Kind of like doing a test drive and hitting the gas pedal and getting thrown back in your car seat.

As for "(which most people think look ugly anyway)".
1) The office suite, I think they have botched it (except 1 or two things IE: grouping similar tasks. The different sized icons just ruin the design.
2) the visuals for vista don't look that bad.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: WTF
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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Sorry if this sounds a tad personal. Apart from the fact that your organization forces you to use Windows on the desktop, can you seriously "endorse" it by saying 'this is the desktop people will be running in 5-10 years'? I say this because you start off as a *nix user. There are plenty of *nix users in my company as well (all the unix admin guys) and boy! have I seen a a more ignorant bunch as far as open-source is concerned! They more or less have surrendered the desktop to M$. No, not even Apple will do. And Linux? Oh they still think its for hobbyists.
I guess Windows Admin are easier to convince to move over to Linux that Unix admins. And no, its not because unix is better or anything.
As a good example, I was showing videos of the latest Xgl, EXA, luminocity stuff that KDE/GNOME guys are doing to some of these unix admins. They were like: What do you need *that* for on a *nix box? I was like: If you can put up with the childish XP theme on your corporate desktop, then definitely this is way cooler and won't burn a hole in your pocket forcing you to upgrade your hardware with each version!
I, for one, do not count the unix guys a silent ally of linux anymore. They are more like the 'hidden enemy'.
And yes, I am ready for all possible attacks from unix admins once I hit 'submit comment' button.

Reply Score: 0

RE: WTF
by hyper on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:06 UTC in reply to "WTF"
hyper Member since:
2005-06-29

go read slashdot if you don't like it here...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: WTF
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:08 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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Amen!

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: WTF
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 04:22 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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Actually slashdot has 3 articles on MS today; not all on the PDC.

1) Judge Clears the Way for Google's Microsoft Hire
2) Dvorak on Microsoft Confusing the Market
3) Office 12 Exposed

And I suspect that their will be some more postings of the PDC @slashdot.

FYI: How about one giant list for the PDC. There are other stories in the news for MS. Just my .02 cents worth.

Reply Score: 0

Re: Why all the MS Articles
by DigitalDame on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:12 UTC
DigitalDame
Member since:
2005-08-19

Re: Why all the MS Articles.

Well, the answer to that is, if you want to read about Linux, then submit a news article on it. It's not that hard. Most sites like these are dependent on others to send important info, because there's no way one person can know about everything going on in the tech world. This is also why there are specialized sites out there, such as Linux Today, that focus only on Linux to get that kind of info.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Re: Why all the MS Articles
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:20 UTC in reply to "Re: Why all the MS Articles"
Anonymous Member since:
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Jen,

I don't think that's what's going on here.

But, based on your point, I don't believe that the scales cannot be balanced by a little searching each day.

I can get updated with most of the Linux, UNIX etc... news in ten minuets each day.

Reply Score: 0

System Requirements?
by neelay1 on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:15 UTC
neelay1
Member since:
2005-09-13

As far as I can see, the system requirements for Windows Vista are going to be very high. A good user interface may attract some users, but speed of operation is more important to computer literates. If Vista turns out to be as "bulky" as other MS OS, users may lose interest in it.

Reply Score: 1

RE: System Requirements?
by ma_d on Tue 13th Sep 2005 23:18 UTC in reply to "System Requirements?"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

Realistically. The interface in Vista will be *lighter* on the CPU. Graphics cards aren't that expensive, so please, please, quit whining about requirements. They say they plan to leave it deactivatable anyway...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: System Requirements?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 08:22 UTC in reply to "System Requirements?"
Anonymous Member since:
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also, to add to the reply by ma_d, it's not like it's going to be any big problem, even for the older graphics cards. we've had games ages ago that had more cool effects than Vista will have. no problems there.

transparency, 3D, the works. it's not really something new and I would've been very surprised if they HADN'T done it.

sure, it might not run well with a five year old graphics card, but meh, I'm sure some of the 3D eyecandy will be optional, as ma_d said.

so there.

Reply Score: 0

features?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:20 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I don't see very many improvements over XP. The window preview over the task bar is cool, except I shouldn't even need a taskbar in the first place! Search is, generally, overhyped. The whole platform is just so unattractive to me, especially because of the lack of a decent, elegant UI (both apps and shell). Windows, as it stands right now, is approximately 95% cruft, 4% shininess, 1% features.

-bytecoder

Reply Score: 0

On topic
by sappyvcv on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:21 UTC
sappyvcv
Member since:
2005-07-06

Ok, actually on topic now.

It looks better than beta1 definitely, but still has some big improvements to make. I can see some stuff starting to come together, and hopefully over the next 6 months or so, things will start to take shape and make more sense.

Not a lot of what they are doing is revolution, but it doesn't have to be. It's not the ideas that count, it's the implementations. Some of the implementations I've seen so far are pretty damn cool, and will only get better, I hope.

There are also a lot of little changes that users will take for granted and not fully appreciate when they start to use Vista. Breadcrumb trail for explorer windows, thumbnail preview of programs in taskbar, etc.

Reply Score: 1

Rotating Windows
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:33 UTC
Anonymous
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My first thought on seeing the rotated windows was that if Microsoft designed it right, then that can be a useful way to access hidden windows for drag and drop and other things whenm you have a bunch opened

Reply Score: 0

RE: Rotating Windows
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:49 UTC in reply to "Rotating Windows"
Anonymous Member since:
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Ever heard of 'window shading'? Minimizing to the taskbar could easily be replaced with something like WindowShade X ( http://www.unsanity.com/haxies/wsx/ ). The taskbar is just an un-thoughtout, hackish idea whose sole existance is based on the fact that it constitutes a substantial portion of the Windows look and feel.

-bytecoder

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Rotating Windows
by sappyvcv on Tue 13th Sep 2005 22:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Rotating Windows"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I personally think that's a terrible idea.

What if you want to switch between full-screen applications? What if you jave tons of windows open and one is hidden behind another?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Rotating Windows
by prismX on Wed 14th Sep 2005 19:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Rotating Windows"
prismX Member since:
2005-08-19

Did you forget about alt-tab?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Rotating Windows
by prismX on Wed 14th Sep 2005 19:36 UTC in reply to "Rotating Windows"
prismX Member since:
2005-08-19

I think rotating windows are great idea. Most people prefer to read from hardcopies, especially if you need to look back and forth, go through pages and compare. Today, reading pdf-s or doc-s you cannotread from two pages simultaneously. Implementation of document page rotation may enable reading of e-documents like printed copies and this could be wonderful

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Rotating Windows
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 22:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Rotating Windows"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Today, reading pdf-s or doc-s you cannotread from two pages simultaneously. Implementation of document page rotation may enable reading of e-documents like printed copies and this could be wonderful"

Kpdf built into konqueror in KDE does this and Evince in gnome.

Reply Score: 0

v Truly Horrific
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:38 UTC
Skinning
by Buck on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:40 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

Everything looks like a bad skin but its being 'official' somehow makes people [colour]blind. It's probably just as ugly as the default XP theme which I cannot stand even for a minute. And the "new" clock so surprised me that I accidentally posted in the wrong thread. Hail to the NEW CLOCK! http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=25696&a=159919&po...

Reply Score: 1

And then...
by Buck on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:45 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

probably the new UI is just for the show. Most people won't be able to use it due to hardware being obsolete and it will look somewhat like XP. So... it makes many ooohs and aaaahs but at the end of the day what percentage of users will be able to use it daily? By the time most people buy appropriate hardware there might as well appear another version of Windows...

Reply Score: 1

Bleah.
by Milo_Hoffman on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:46 UTC
Milo_Hoffman
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well... as much as I hated XP and immediately swtiched over to "Windows Classic" at least this version of windows is not going to make me wan't to puke. So lets all give microsoft a nod for finally developing something that does not make you want to puke.

That being said, I sure hope that there is a Windows Classic mode in there somewhere, all that eye candy crap will get in the way. I would rather have the Windows Classic theme and just use the app improvements.

Reply Score: 1

NET?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Funny, didn't everyone say there would be lots of .NET stuff after the first beta?

Well, there does not seem to be anything in this version either. Its obvious that Microsoft is abandoning .NET or at the very least not "eating their own dogfood.".

Reply Score: 0

RE: NET?
by sappyvcv on Tue 13th Sep 2005 22:16 UTC in reply to "NET?"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Nope, no one said that. It's been known that the core OS components won't be built on .NET for anyone not living under a rock for a while now.

Reply Score: 2

I like the new look.
by alime on Tue 13th Sep 2005 21:56 UTC
alime
Member since:
2005-07-06

UI looks pertty sharp. It looks like it has added of "Thanks cool" features. I hope they went deeper with the rest of the OS.

Reply Score: 2

v re: features?
by rockwell on Tue 13th Sep 2005 22:04 UTC
RE: re: features?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 01:24 UTC in reply to "re: features?"
Anonymous Member since:
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I find it funny how people seem to always cite that when responding to something like what I said. The fact is, Windows does have an incredible amount of marketshare, because the experience as a whole is generally acceptable. This does not mean the UI is good just based on that fact; it only means the combined package as a whole is good enough for 90% of computer users.

Now, if some other company came along and started offering a better, compatible OS that comes prepackaged with good, well-priced computers, I'd bet you'd see some people switching over. For example, I am certain that BeOS could've kicked the snot out of Windows (95) if it had been marketed and sold in a comparable manner.

-bytecoder

Reply Score: 1

RE: re: features?
by raver31 on Wed 14th Sep 2005 07:45 UTC in reply to "re: features?"
raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

//Windows, as it stands right now, is approximately 95% cruft, 4% shininess, 1% features. //

Funny how it's installed on 90% of the world's desktop PC's, then. Imagine -- Windows is 99% feature-less, yet most folks use the hell out of it. Strange.


I take it that you are new to the world of computers then ?

Windows is only "on 90%" (doubtful) of the worlds computers... "maybe US and European computers.. Maybe, but NOT 90% of the worlds computers...

Anyway, they only got to be the predominant one because of some "dodgy" deals in the past. People were forced to use MS stuff. they still are, it still continues to this day

Reply Score: 2

v Microsoft nead Open Source devels
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 22:05 UTC
Anonymous Member since:
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That is so funny I got tears pooring out of my eyes. :-)

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Since when is ESR a developer? What has he written of importance?

It appears ESR didn’t get enough personal attention lately and was happy that a Microsoft SUBCONTRACTOR, wasn’t paying a lot of attention. (the v- in the from address indicates vendor)
Then he went overboard by saying he was their Worst Nightmare and that he personally sold linux to the fortune 500 and whatever.
Add a title like “Microsoft tries to recruit me” and bang, instant attention and media coverage.

Reminds me of this ESR cartoon (or even the entire series)
http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/show-them-the-code

Yeah that’s right, I feel ESR never did anything but write a few papers and maintain fetchmail. That's about what I did (I left a half finished oss project and wrote some docs and translation on some other projects/web sites) but he seems to think thats enough to brag about forever.

Reply Score: 1

Where's the beef?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Sep 2005 23:10 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I wonder what all the fuss is about. Leaving aside the eyecandy, what functional improvements and real enhancements does Vista actually have? I just don't see that it's worth dropping hundred of bucks on a new PC and associated software if all I am going to get is a translucent taskbar and some extra thumbnails (which if of a webpage will be too small to decipher anyway).

Reply Score: 0

antialiasing
by ma_d on Tue 13th Sep 2005 23:20 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Some of their stuff could majorly benefit from some form of antialiasing... The side turned windows are REALLY jaggedy. (I'm just guessing PC World would demo this on a nice machine).

Reply Score: 1

enhancements?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 00:05 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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To be honest, I find it pretty ugly and rather distractive. Hopefully you can customize it just as you can with Linux. Otherwise there are not many reasons left to use Vista...

Reply Score: 0

v RE: enhancements?
by Tom K on Wed 14th Sep 2005 02:11 UTC in reply to "enhancements?"
RE[2]: enhancements?
by archiesteel on Wed 14th Sep 2005 04:45 UTC in reply to "RE: enhancements?"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

In other words, you are incapable of making up your own mind. You need others to decide for you. You do not like to have a choice.

It's good that you can freely admit that you feel this way. It takes courage.

But I'm afraid you are mistaken. Linux is not 100 poor choices - there's good, bad and ugly. You pick what you like. I like the good, personally, like KDE. That's why I use excellent-quality software on my KDE desktop.

In any case you can't compare Windows and OS X against Linux. Linux is a kernel. You have to compare it to other desktops, like KDE or Gnome or Enlightment. What's underneath isn't really important for users, it's all about the Interface. So really one cannot compare Windows to Linux.

Now, if you want you can explain to me how the Windows desktop is superior to the KDE desktop, and you'll be making sense. Otherwise you're just comparing apples and oranges...

Reply Score: 2

v i got a sickness and the only cure...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 01:43 UTC
Hey Thom
by thebackwash on Wed 14th Sep 2005 03:08 UTC
thebackwash
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thank you for taking over the reins of osnews in such a smooth manner. It's good to see a good balance of articles, the trolls it may bring aside. I used all 5 of my mod points on this thread. Watta buncha whiners. This was the PDC. Damn straight I better hear about Windows today. (I use and love my iBook, thank you!)

On Vista: It's good to see the pieces coming together. If the least that this version of Windows brings us is the removal of years of built-up "compatibility maintenance code," it will be worth the price. I was pleased to hear of the technical improvements of XP, though I would not touch the home version. I hope that Vista delivers on a secure, reliable codebase.

On Aero Glass: Hmm... I hope that Apple adopts and modifies some innovations we see in Aero to suit MacOS X. (I'm thinking alt-tab activating an old-fashioned windows-style window selection pane, but with expose sliding window thumbnails into place.) As for the rest of Aero Glass- I could leave it.

mmm... geek dreamery.

Reply Score: 1

Firefox
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 03:36 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Check out this screen shot!!!

http://www.pcmag.com/slideshow_viewer/0,1205,l=&s=25696&a=159919&po...

They have a Firefox icon in the taskbar!!!! Does this mean MS officially is supporting Firefox in Vista? I kind of like it.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Firefox
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 03:49 UTC in reply to "Firefox"
Anonymous Member since:
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The screenshots aren't Microsoft's... They are PCMag's.

Reply Score: 0

Features we have now.
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 03:47 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I dont know weather some of you know but both KDE and GNOME have these features already. To me it's a simple case of "copy and look at out OS, with great NEW features". While Windows users have there mouth open with hore, linux desktop enjoys them as you look.

I'm tring not to be biased but evertime I read articals like this about Vista, you realize just how far linux desktop is really in front. Hope some of you people realize this, because it's a fact. Welcome to the future where the world doesn't revolve around a outdated OS.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Features we have now.
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 04:35 UTC in reply to "Features we have now."
Anonymous Member since:
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Ok guy, I'm a KDE user myself, and I really wonder how do I get those nifty app-thumbnails when moving my mouse over the task bar?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Features we have now.
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Features we have now."
Anonymous Member since:
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"Ok guy, I'm a KDE user myself, and I really wonder how do I get those nifty app-thumbnails when moving my mouse over the task bar?"

Something called kasbar where you go make a new panel. The kasbar shows preview pictures of the window/app thats open, they even update.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Features we have now.
by archiesteel on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Features we have now."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Actually, I found out that mtaskbar (on KDE-apps) does the same thing...except you have to put video apps on an unintuitive "exception list". Other than that it works great, also it has nice "flat" buttons.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Features we have now.
by hyper on Wed 14th Sep 2005 14:23 UTC in reply to "Features we have now."
hyper Member since:
2005-06-29

-1: clueless

Reply Score: 1

Features already in KDE
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Hi, I haven't finished seeing all the screenshots but even as I am looking at the 5th or 6th one, its pretty obvious that M$ has lost the race to add eye-candy this time around:
1. Thumbnails over taskbar -- This has been in KDE for almost a year now. Most distros ship with (or allow you to install later) Taskbar V2 which already does this.
2. Same goes for the balloons over taskbar showing details of the apps.
3. Search field in start menu -- This feature is already on the KDE that ships with OpenSUSE 10.0 RC1. And yes, it greys out menu choices that don't match with your search string and highlights the ones that do. Also see the ALI menu from the fantastic 'baghira' team at baghira.sf.net. Baghira, for the uninitiated with KDE, is a style based on OS X Aqua.
4. ... will keep posting more as I look through the remaining screenshots.

Reply Score: 0

Features already in KDE (contd)
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:41 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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4. Drag-and-Drop -- While not exactly when you're dragging, but once you stop dragging an object at its destination, KDE offers you choice to either 'Move' or Copy' or Cancel the DnD operation.

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Features already in KDE (contd)
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:42 UTC
Anonymous
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5. Taskbar transparency -- Isn't that an 'old' feature already in KDE?

Reply Score: 0

I can't really remember...
by corentin on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:43 UTC
corentin
Member since:
2005-08-08

What's the goal of an operating system, anyway? Is it to allow other applications to efficiently use the available computing resources, or it to take all those precious resources to pretend being Picasso?

Reply Score: 1

VIsta
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:45 UTC
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Actually no one (in public) hasn't even seen Vista beta 2 yet which has all Vista's incredible graphical features. That version in PDC is just an pre-beta 2 which lacks a lot of features which makes Vista so amazing.

UNIX/Linux (Xorg) isn't going to have 3D windowing and capabilities a while but hopefully they have something that KDE/GNOME/etc. can compete with Vista/OSX.
Unfortunately at the moment KDE/GNOME looks pretty booring and amateur.

Reply Score: 1

RE: VIsta
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 05:47 UTC in reply to "VIsta"
Anonymous Member since:
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you haven't used KDE/GNOME or any X desktop for at least 3 years, have you?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: VIsta
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 06:09 UTC in reply to "RE: VIsta"
Anonymous Member since:
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Of course I have.
I really like KDE and GNOME but presonally I think those themes and graphical features needs much more work.

Have you seen how easily you can create incredible 3D interfaces with XAML/Avalon?
Or how nicely it spins hundreds of photograps in realtime? (http://www.winsupersite.com/images/showcase/pdc2005_day0_02.jpg)

Can you really compare these:
http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png
http://www.stellingwerff.com/cl-cairo/wip15.png
http://www.kde.org/screenshots/images/3.4/snapshot05.png
to this:
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winvista_b1_18.jpg

And like I said before those pictures doesn't show Vista's capabilities at all.

But of course there is almost 1½ year (it's not a long time thought) when Vista is released so it's no worth to compare it to KDE/GNOME yet.

But hopefully KDE4 and upcoming GNOMEs (oh well, and Enlightenment) will bring some really flashy features.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: VIsta
by l3v1 on Wed 14th Sep 2005 07:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: VIsta"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

About the Gnome shots: you should do better than that. Gnome is not my personal favourite, still I have it alwaysinstalled and use it from time to time and all I can say, pretty nice Gnome desktops can be built. Your shots are not one of those.

About the KDE shots: man, me being a KDE fan I can tell you the linked shot shows exactly nothing about what KDE 3.4.x has to offer. I don't like clutteret and bloated desktops, but still, even my KDE desktop looks much better and is much usable than any customized Windows desktops I ever made (and believe me, I did, from windowblinds through stylexp, with nice icon sets with samurize and so on) or saw.

Now come on. I don't say Vista can't do eyecandy. But comparing some Vista shots with personal ignorance won't make you prove anything worth reading.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: VIsta
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 08:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: VIsta"
Anonymous Member since:
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Ok, I knew those pictures I linked wasn't the best GNOME/KDE can offer but default themes.
I'm not big fan of eye candy if it isn't used properly, but at the moment Linux desktops lacks such of possibility and features.
I'm sure Cairo and KDE4 will make a lot but unfortunately there isn't many Cairo themes yet and it has some performance problems (CVS should be a lot better though).
I'm still a bit worried how Linux desktops can answer 3D desktops like Vista.
Mockups like this http://www.kde-look.org/content/pre1/28476-1.jpg are a bit better.
I don't say KDE or GNOME should be exactly like Vista/OSX but eye candy's etc. do much.

OT :-|

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: VIsta
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 09:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: VIsta"
Anonymous Member since:
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There are different project such as Metisse and Croquets. But the most important is to modularize X.org which will be available this fall as 7.0 version. Desktop environment like Gnome and KDE use that modular version in the future.
All I think about Vista is how tighly integrated it is with its kernel to pull these kind of effects hence high specification requirement. IMHO, Vista is still monolithic.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: VIsta
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 12:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: VIsta"
Anonymous Member since:
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Can you really compare these:
http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.6.png
http://www.stellingwerff.com/cl-cairo/wip15.png
http://www.kde.org/screenshots/images/3.4/snapshot05.png
to this:
http://www.winsupersite.com/images/reviews/winvista_b1_18.jpg


Hell, yeah!

I find Clearlooks _miles_ ahead of Vista (and OSX for that matter) regarding looks and usability.

That's tastes, for you.

I find the glassy/glossy/shiny look ugly, distracting and totally unprofessional.

Reply Score: 0

Pixel Shader, Context Flipping...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 09:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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It is my understanding that, to achieve a blur effect behing their Aero Glass windows decoration, they had to use a fragment shader. Am I rite?

So they must use lot's of DirectX contexts (one per windows?) Did they managed to deal with non full screen OpenGl apps? Context flipping? And all other similar limitations that tortures X(e)gl (and on top) luminocity devels ?

Whaaaa I do not think that there is a lot of video card able to do that (only the less than 2-3 years old ones)... or am I totaly wrong?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Its's basically really simple in DirectX (I don't know much about OpenGL). You use one Direct3D Device per application (in this case the desktop I supose) and create a rendering surface per window. Then you can just switch between the windows/rendering surfaces. The technique is called "swap chains".

The other point are the pixel/fragment shaders. For the blur effect they indeed used them heavily. If you look at the requirements you will see that you'll need at least a DX 9 capable graphics card (Shader version 2.0).

Reply Score: 0

.net and AegoGlass OpenGL
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 09:16 UTC
Anonymous
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Quote: "Well, there does not seem to be anything in this version either. Its obvious that Microsoft is abandoning .NET or at the very least not eating their own dogfood."

Not even close, they are for .NET even more its not a new kind in the block anymore, so no news issue anymore. Some of the Vista's Contol Panel applets are .net applications. If I am right, clock applet is actually .net application.


Quote: "So they must use lot's of DirectX contexts (one per windows?) Did they managed to deal with non full screen OpenGl apps? Context flipping? And all other similar limitations that tortures X(e)gl (and on top) luminocity devels?"

Not really, windowed OGL apps go through vanilla OpenGL1.4-DirectX wrapper to function in AeroGlass desktop. Fullscreen OGLs have no problems using sfx card's native OpenGL drivers. If AeroGlass desktop is not enabled then windowed OpenGL apps should work through native OGL drivers as it does today.

Reply Score: 0

Oh Vista! Hope you dont succeed.
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 10:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This is my first post so I'm going to say alot of what I always wanted to say on or off-topic.

=============
Windows Vista
=============

The Windows Vista interface looks weird to me but that's probably because I hate aqua-style looks with all those transparencies. I prefer Gnome or XFCE (my favourite) looks.

The sidebar is a good ideia for a long time I guess it depends on how its going to be implemented. This ideia is the kind of ideia that - or you implement it right or just forget about it.

Windows, as it stands right now, is approximately 95% cruft, 4% shininess, 1% features.

Funny how it's installed on 90% of the world's desktop PC's, then. Imagine -- Windows is 99% feature-less, yet most folks use the hell out of it. Strange.


What can you do with Windows OS features? Nothing because you have to buy all the other software to make it usefull. Don't confuse OS with full system.

Well, Windows does have very few features, but then again is just an Operating System. What confuses me is why the hell such OS with very few features needs aprox. 2GB of HD. And I guess Windows Vista is going to be even more.

The biggest danger from Windows Vista doesnt come from its looks but from Avalon/Xaml/Indigo. If this version gains a lot of market share companies might think is a good move and the INTERNET is going to be flooded with applications developed for this platform. However, if that doesn't happen then companies might go for a development enviroment that uses cross-platform and that's why php have so much sucess and why macromedia is thinking moving to Linux also.

By making Avalon/Xaml/Indigo available only for Windows Vista, at least that's what I heard (and I think is a big mistake) Microsoft is preparing itself to give the biggest blow on Open Source comunity but that depends on the market share that Vista is capable of achieve immediately after launch.

Microsoft Vista is the Microsoft OS with most locks ever and Avalon/Xaml/Indigo is the heavyweight.

I hope they cannot succeed.

=========
Inovation
=========

I see people talking that Microsoft doesn't inovate, my opinion on this matter is that noone does. Software developers are constantly reinventing the wheel adding few features or a slightly diferent way of doing things. Big inovations, things radically new are very rare. They happen but most of the time that's not how the software is develop.

=========
Linux/BSD
=========

If you think that Linux is not ready for the desktop that's because you never use it.
The average Jon Doe user doesn't know how to install Linux but the same happens with Windows. The instalation methods are equal, there's no difference between them.
Linux is definetly ready for desktop but the OS comunity has a big enemy - Microsoft. No not really, the biggest enemy of OS comunity a is the hardware vendors. If Linux had hardware drivers from the hardware vendors just like MS Windows does then it's use would boost significantly. After all, Linux is better then MS Windows in almost every aspects except,DRIVERS.

Oh by the way my mom, my dad and my sister all use Linux because I was fed up with worms and stuff. I setup the sistem of course but I also did it for Windows. They like and for users only it's pretty cool!

Chamaeleon
Cheers to everyone

Reply Score: 0

Xorg&Co vs MS
by STTS on Wed 14th Sep 2005 11:35 UTC
STTS
Member since:
2005-07-06

yes, it is happened earlier then i guess. X.Org devs still modularizing and accelerating 5 years old RENDER extension or even "EXA'ing drivers", MS innovate and show real working 3D desktop. Let's "Who is slow - xorg or gtk+ or whatever" flame continue ...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Xorg&Co vs MS
by Finalzone on Wed 14th Sep 2005 16:55 UTC in reply to "Xorg&Co vs MS"
Finalzone Member since:
2005-07-06

Do you know how 3D desktop is implemented in Vista? Can you access to Vista source to see how it works as developers or even hackers (in sense of code enhancers)? Probably that 3D performace is tighly integrated to the kernel thus if that 3D engine break, you cannot check the problem. What requirement to fully take advantage of this 3D rendering. In real world, very few users will explore 3D desktop features.

Remember that X.org is only 2 years old. You have seen Luminocity, Metisse or Croquet what show the 3D capabitily of X.org. It is more important to clean up X.org than adding effect such 3D to regret to not modularize. For this quote: "Who is slow - xorg or gtk+ or whatever", I guess you are never used twn(DE for X) nor XFCE which use GTK engine.

Time will tell how these will turn out.

Reply Score: 1

one of the things i would like to see
by present_arms on Wed 14th Sep 2005 14:22 UTC
present_arms
Member since:
2005-07-09

Is being able to do Admin tasks as a user by if u click on a task that need admin privlidge it displays a password box for the password... like what happens in certain distro's of *nix. It really is a pain in the butte having to log out / swap users/ log back in again as user after i've done the task... this would help secure windows a little bit and save time as well (no first user an admin... this a s most know is plain stupid. even behind fire/router)

just my 2c

Alie

Reply Score: 1

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

That's exactly what it's going to do. In fact, beta1 already started doing it.

Reply Score: 1

Looks are not everthing
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 15:54 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Being a Linux user, yes Vista looks nice and would you expect otherwise?, because thats the version that you'll be stuck with for 5-10 years. Microsoft has no alturnative but to do what it's doing. Yes the geeky desktop people will love it, but for day to day working it dont matter and bussiness will not even have it enabled.

Vista is next november 2006 release, dont compare because it'as apples and oranges comparision, by then Linux will have OpenGL accerated X and Window managers, if not it will be close.

Reply Score: 0

v What's really going on...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Sep 2005 17:35 UTC
...eeh
by Anonymous on Thu 15th Sep 2005 02:17 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The task bar is a neat idea but I'm still not all gun hoe on the look of Vista yet.

and the new office just made me want to puke.

I mean eyecandy sure but color scheme and what not too is a big deal. In part thats why Apple has good luck with their eyecandy interface.....not only is it like "WHOAH!"...its sleek with its brushed metal look!

Its this even-ness that attracts me to me both the gnome and kde as being "better"....even over vista

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Features we have now.
by chavo on Thu 15th Sep 2005 07:16 UTC
chavo
Member since:
2005-09-15

Actually there's another taskbar plugin called taskbar2. It is similar to the normal KDE taskbar, except it has window thumbnails on mouseover, plus it supports transparency.

http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=16261

Reply Score: 1