Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 21st Sep 2005 11:41 UTC
KDE KDE 3.5 Beta 1 can be downloaded over the Internet by visiting KDE's download page. Source code and vendor supplied binary packages are available. For additional information on package availability and to read further release notes, please visit the KDE 3.5 Beta 1 information page.
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Changelog
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 11:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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From the changelog:
"Untar a file entry without putting the data completely in memory"

I upgrade immediately. ;)

Reply Score: 0

noatum?
by evert on Wed 21st Sep 2005 11:53 UTC
evert
Member since:
2005-07-06

Can I open a playlist in Noatum without freezing the computer after the music has stopped? Time to try out :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: noatum?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 11:59 UTC in reply to "noatum?"
Anonymous Member since:
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How can someone still use noatun when we have amarok? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: noatum?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:00 UTC in reply to "RE: noatum?"
Anonymous Member since:
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amaROCKS!!!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: noatum?
by Shade on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:15 UTC in reply to "RE: noatum?"
Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

Amarok is hands down the best music player for any platform. It really is a 'best of breed' app. As far as Noatun goes, meh, it got off to a rough start... Personally, I use Amarok for music, Kaffeine for video, and Kaboodle (the stripped back Noatun) for playing single files so I don't wonk up my default playlists... I've found that system works pretty well.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: noatum?
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: noatum?"
RE[4]: noatum?
by Shade on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: noatum?"
Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

"That is so laughtable, because AMarok only runs on *unixes, if you want multiplatform yoo need to emulate it."

I never said you can / should run it on any platform (Non-GPLers should burn anyway). It is simply better than any other music player in my experience. I don't intend to get into a media player pissing contest, but Amarok really is that good.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: noatum?
by Anonymous on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 07:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: noatum?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"It is simply better than any other music player in my experience."

Well, until it can handle gapless playback (think The Fragile, or Dark Side of the Moon), it won't be for me. Sadly, it's still a non-issue to most people...(iPod anyone ?)

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: noatum?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: noatum?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Who cares if it runs under windows ? It works for me, that's what is important.
Seriously, get out !

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: noatum?
by Shade on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:29 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: noatum?"
Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

Amen!!!

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: noatum?
by cm__ on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: noatum?"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> > Amarok is hands down the best music player for any platform.

> That is so laughtable, because AMarok only runs on *unixes

You *wanted* to misunderstand what the original poster has said, didn't you?

Reply Score: 2

Kubuntu packages
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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RE: Kubuntu packages
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:13 UTC in reply to "Kubuntu packages"
Anonymous Member since:
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How do you install after adding those sources? Thanks.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Kubuntu packages
by Whats That There on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Kubuntu packages"
Whats That There Member since:
2005-09-21

apt-get upgrade

Reply Score: 1

Codename
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:35 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Haha, Kanzler. Now that's a fitting name!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Codename
by cm__ on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:45 UTC in reply to "Codename"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

Beta 2 will be named MerKel. ;)

No, just kidding.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Codename
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Codename"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Beta 2 will be named MerKel. ;)

No, just kidding.


KSchroeder seems better to me ;) . Or, is that the hair-dy app for KDE?

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Codename
by cm__ on Wed 21st Sep 2005 14:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Codename"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> KSchroeder seems better to me ;) . Or, is that the hair-dy app for KDE?

Shhhh. Not so loud or he'll sue you. ;)

Reply Score: 1

Changelog
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Is there a changelog on the web? I found only the site with "work in progress etc"

Reply Score: 0

RE: Changelog
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:10 UTC in reply to "Changelog"
Anonymous Member since:
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There will be a changelog only for the final release.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Changelog
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:26 UTC in reply to "Changelog"
Anonymous Member since:
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Screenshots?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 12:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Anybody has a link to some screenshots?

Reply Score: 0

v Now we wait...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:16 UTC
RE: Now we wait...
by lostnerd on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:33 UTC in reply to "Now we wait..."
lostnerd Member since:
2005-07-27

Dear Lord, its not a Microsoft product. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Kubuntu packages
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 13:43 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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apt-get update and then apt-get distupgrade should do it.

Keep in mind though that it is a beta release, so be careful.

Reply Score: 0

KWin(/Kicker) bug still present?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 14:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Back in 3.3 I reported a bug in Kicker, that was supposed to be fixed, but there was a bug in KWin that needed to be fixed too.

If you set kicker to less than 100% screen width, windows can't cover the empty area. This is supposedly a KWin bug.
Does anyone know if this is fixed in 3.5? Unfortunately I don't have the time to download and test it now :/

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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I believe this is not even a problem with kwin but with all window managers and the WM specification. I have the same problem with two monitors: Kicker is only on the left monitor, but apps on the right monitor cannot be as big as the screen really is. So i have free space on the right side where the kicker is on the left side. This is because the WM specification only allows rectangles for screens-areas. When you want to cut off the size (height) of kicker from the available screen you may only cut it on the whole width to end up having a rectangle. Easiest to try this out: Try running KDE with an other window manager.
Has anybody more clue on that matter?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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If you set kicker to less than 100% screen width, windows can't cover the empty area. This is supposedly a KWin bug.

I don't know about the bug but as a work-around you could allow windows to overlap the panel.

Reply Score: 0

v Konqueror
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 14:16 UTC
v Konqueror Improvements
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 14:34 UTC
RE: Konqueror Improvements
by anda_skoa on Wed 21st Sep 2005 14:38 UTC in reply to "Konqueror Improvements"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

IIRC Konqueror 3.5 has full GMail compatability once either you have changed the user agent to something GMail thinks is ok or once GMail updates its browser checks

Reply Score: 1

3,5 Feature Plan
by CaptainPinko on Wed 21st Sep 2005 14:58 UTC
CaptainPinko
Member since:
2005-07-21

Anyone else surprised how much was left undone for 3.5 http://developer.kde.org/development-versions/kde-3.5-features.html... ? Any chance that the "In Progress" material will make it in? Or is that list just out of date?

Reply Score: 1

v But what about the Qt license?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 15:23 UTC
v RE: But what about the Qt license?
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 15:32 UTC in reply to "But what about the Qt license?"
Richard Dale Member since:
2005-07-22

Trolltech has never explained how KDE is supposed to flourish with a viral GPL license and very expensive proprietary license.

Oh, so you weren't at the recent aKademy Malaga conference where Eirik Chambe-Eng successfully explained just that in his keynote speech?

It's really the combination of the two licenses which allows both Qt and KDE to flourish. It isn't the problem, it's the solution.

Reply Score: 5

Anonymous Member since:
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Good joke !
QT is more efficient than ever + QT license fee is only for non-GPL apps. Nothing to worry about, look how brilliant Opera is !

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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If $3300 is too much for you, fine. For a company from a developped country, that's not much.
I do prefer BSD over GPL, and that's a valid point, but don't tell me that QT is loosing ground. The infamous GTK does...

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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complete rubbish. Are you the same troll who made a fool of them selves in the Qt/LSB thread?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Firstly, this has been discussed to death, so please just go use GTK if you don't like Qt. As a programmer having worked with just about all the major GUI toolkits out there on PC, (GTK(mm/#), AWT/Swing, MFC, Win32, Qt, Windows.Forms) I can tell you that Qt is so far above all the others it's almost unfair to compare them.

But anyway, I agree that GPL Qt might make some companies choose GTK instead. That's OK. Whether they are saving money this way is debatable, but it isn't really important to me what they choose. Some of the finest Free software available is built on Qt/KDE. I couldn't care less whether Adobe uses GTK for their terrible adobe acrobat reader.

I suggest you read this article by Eric Laffoon on why the Qt license is a strength, not a weakness of KDE.
http://www.ofb.biz/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=381

Reply Score: 3

Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

I suggest you read this article by Eric Laffoon on why the Qt license is a strength, not a weakness of KDE.

Sure that's the convenient point of view of them, but form the other side, the real one, is nothing but GPL philosophy that doesn't feeds their needs.

Some of the finest Free software available is built on Qt/KDE

Qt is so far above all the others

For how long?

GTK is now good, maybe not the best, but is good, and as the time passes is getting better and more atractive.

Reply Score: 1

anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

... and you don't have $6000 dls then forget about...

Oh boy! Didn't know the US Dollar has fallen that much that EUR 2600 are already worth USD 6000

Should do some online shopping ;)

Reply Score: 1

Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Oh boy! Didn't know the US Dollar has fallen that much that EUR 2600 are already worth USD 6000

Yeah and 2600 ER is sooooo cheap, only 5 times more expensive than any ether, man, Im so uninformed.

Reply Score: 0

anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

only 5 times more expensive than any ether

Excuse me, I am not an English native speaker, what is an ether?

man, Im so uninformed

Yeah, that is obvious

Reply Score: 1

DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

That wasn't his point.

Reply Score: 1

Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

"the problme is tha the number of develoepers who dislike GPL are to much and they choose Windows or not port their app. to Linux or they use GTK, Qt is tha last option for them, this makes GNOME-GTK grows and KDE-Qt get stuck."

OK, so they don't like the GPL, but they want free stuff... Hmm, that strikes me as at least slightly antisocial behaviour. QT is GPLed on all major platforms, if you can live with the GPL. The GPL protects individual developers as much as companies.

If Joe wants to write software, and doesn't want people to scoop up his work, and use it in their product to get rich of his work without giving him any credit (or cash) he should use the GPL.

If a software company writes a good piece of software, but doesn't want some other company to scoop up their work and get rich off it (which doesn't make good capitalist sense), they are entitled to use the GPL and sell their product under a duel licence. If a company wants to get rich, not pay Trolltech, sell your product under the GPL, or better yet sell support (I mean nobody should know your product better than you).

See, good social behaviour. The GNOMErs can cite these charming apps that get ported to windows, and can say, ha- like a bazillion windows users are using our app... Well, what have they given back? I worked on a large multiplatform project, let me tell you, you are lucky if you can get a windows user to download the binary labelled 'for windows' with with a glass window icon beside it (let alone give one line of code, bit of documentation, or piece of quality art, back).

As far as commercial developers that want something for nothing, well boo hoo... As far as the LSB trying to enshrine GTK+, well that isn't exactly where the linux desktop of today is at, and it doesn't exactly make me think more highly of them for shunning GPLed libraries, and it certainly doesn't help them seem more relevant when I can count the number of installed GTK apps I have on one hand (and those are slated to go away 'really soon' now). [That being said, I DO think the LSB has done a lot of good, them, and the push toward ABI stabilization and the reinvigorated X development]

As far as the GTK will win goes-- umm, where is the support? where is the good, up to date documentation? and where the hell isn't the 30 lines of C to do things that are 5 lines of C++ with QT (I can google some examples if you want)? How much momentum do you think GTK will have when the consortium backing it loses interest or loses focus (If you think that that is a troll, look at the history of *nix consortium's)? Thank you, I'd rather have one company focused one toolkit as it's bread and butter (With the 'if we fail' clause), and have them provide proper support and documentation.

As near as I can tell, you are either a) just another GNOME fanboy in a KDE news article thread, b) an antisocial jerk who wants something for nothing, or c) somebody who likes to encourage cooperate welfare in the form of giving corporations something for nothing (that is often developed by people for strictly altruistic reasons)...

Reply Score: 3

Anonymous Member since:
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Nobody said they want for free, but the prcie is to hight.

I want an omelette, but the price of eggs is too high!
What is the point of complaining about price? Price is determined by market factors, and whining about it won't change that.

Reply Score: 0

Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

"You cannot live entirely with free software the same you cannot live entirely with commercial software."

I think this is the nub of our irreconcilable differences ;) I simply disagree. I watched whole close platforms die around me (Can anybody say Amiga [Yes I know about OS 4 and MorphOS]). I've seen closed software I've loved suffer a lingering death when they get eaten by a certain predatory monopolist (Can anybody say WordPerfect and Netscape-- and many others). I've seen closed developers only innovate out of absolute market necessity, in a market that isn't exactly competitive all of the time. And I've seen plenty of closed vendors come to linux, dip their toe in, then leave us behind...

When I first moved to linux I was willing to put up with large closed apps and toolkits... I have become more of a 'zealot' over time... I have a deep, deep preference for open source now, with a deep bias toward GPLed software. I have become quite convinced that being captive to closed vendors with closed formats and protocols can only leave you at the utter mercy of a 'no so free' market-- It makes you a victim... and I tend to think of the fanboys of these platforms as something akin to battered spouses (You hurt me but I still love you). And that's just me.

I might have had such a strong reaction because the Qt/KDE trolls show up in every one of these threads in force... It gets a bit irksome. I'm not going to say that there are no KDE hijacks of GNOME threads, but there certainly are a lot fewer of us trolling their threads, and given that KDE has a much bigger install base, I can feel some weird pride in that (at least).

Reply Score: 3

Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

Voted down to -2... my first negative vote(s)... anybody care to say why?

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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They aimed for me and missed ;)

Kopete news worth mentioning:
- MSN webcam support Olivier Goffart
- Add support for receiving Yahoo webcams Chetan Reddy

Anyone tried this features yet? Exciting days.
Now, a common encryption standard for Gaim, Kopete, aMSN and the Windows clients would be nice.

Reply Score: 0

Mediocre Sarcasm Man Member since:
2005-07-06

This is something the community should be worried about.

The community has already been worried about this, most of them got over it.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: But what about the Qt license?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:48 UTC in reply to "But what about the Qt license?"
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

Exactly.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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I don't see much of a future for KDE unless companies want to invest in it.

Why is KDE's success dependant on commercial investment? They seem to be doing just fine without.

Reply Score: 0

RE: KWin(/Kicker) bug still present?
by aseigo on Wed 21st Sep 2005 15:38 UTC
aseigo
Member since:
2005-07-06

> If you set kicker to less than 100% screen width,
> windows can't cover the empty area.

this is still present in 3.5. while kicker now only reserves the exact area it needs use NETWEM extended struts, window managers have a heck of a time dealing with non-rectangular areas. it's just very tricky to do and not viewed as particularly pressing an issue as it affects so few people in a meaningful way.

Reply Score: 1

Qt license trolling
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Trolltech has never explained how KDE is supposed to flourish with a viral GPL license and very expensive proprietary license.

This is something the community should be worried about.


Why? Some people prefer free software over commercial software and for them the dual-license model of Qt is actually good. The commercial license helps free software in two ways: first, Trolltech earns money so that it can continue to work on Qt and make it better which is good for free software. Second, because developers have to pay for a commercial license, but can write GPL software for free, it is more likely that they will write GPL software.

(I am of course aware that you are probably just one of the Mono trolls that got pissed because some people consider knowingly infringing other people's patents a bad thing and post it everytime Mono is mentioned and now you want to have your revange and turn this thread into another anti-KDE flamewar. Have fun).

Reply Score: 1

RE: Qt license trolling
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:45 UTC in reply to "Qt license trolling"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Trolltech earns money so that it can continue to work on Qt and make it better which is good for free software.

Or maybe TrollTech uses KDE as a use case because otherwise nobody would never even note that Qt exist.

In that way thay can make money.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Qt license trolling
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Qt license trolling"
Anonymous Member since:
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and what's bad about that?
we get a kickass crossplatform toolkit for free, and they get a chance to show their technologies to a wide audience. it's a win/win situation.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Qt license trolling
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Qt license trolling"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

we get a kickass crossplatform toolkit for free, and they get a chance to show their technologies to a wide audience. it's a win/win situation.

Lets wee:

Win for Trolletch, so they can make ,money.

Win for GPL developers.

That's fine with me

But:

Lose for developers who don't like GPL and choose not to port applications or use GTK.

The problem is there. GPL developers may like this schema but not GPL devs. simple hate it, they don't care about GPL and licenses are to expensive, they are the real losers.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Qt license trolling
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Qt license trolling"
Anonymous Member since:
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that's not a problem for me
I thought that the point of free software is.. well, to write free software.
why should I worry about someone who wants to use someone else's work for free without giving back anything?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Qt license trolling
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Qt license trolling"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Bacause you cannot live entirely with free software the same you cannot live entirely with commercial software.

Anyone with vision knows it, that's is way there are new versions of GPL more friendly with commercial developers,.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Qt license trolling
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Qt license trolling"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

Bacause you cannot live entirely with free software the same you cannot live entirely with commercial software.

Anyone with vision knows it, that's is way there are new versions of GPL more friendly with commercial developers.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Qt license trolling
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Qt license trolling"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

*Lets see:

=)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Qt license trolling
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Qt license trolling"
Anonymous Member since:
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This kind of relationship is commonly described in biology as mutualism. In other words, the relationship benefits both parties. KDE gets a top notch toolkit that they don't have to maintain, and Trolltech gets tons of free high quality beta testing and exposure.

Of course if you don't like the GPL and want to write closed source applications, then you don't benefit from this. But why should you? Have you done anything to deserve benefit? Feel free to use GTK or some other toolkit. No one will stop you.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Qt license trolling
by Yuske on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:48 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Qt license trolling"
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

Im sure commercial developers are willing to pay for a fair price, $2200?

pfff

that's to much, specially when something like Visual Studio cost like 400.

Reply Score: 0

GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 16:53 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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GTK is now good, maybe not the best, but is good, and as the time passes is getting better and more atractive

GTK is not good because the API is just horrible. If you don't believe me, please download the source of some gtk program and compare it to the source of a decent Qt/Java program.

And if gtk is so attractive to (commercial) developers, then pray tell me where can I find all these great (commercial) programs? All of the good gtk programs like gimp or gnumeric have been started long before their Qt equivalents and last time I checked e.g. Krita (image editing and painting app for KDE) was progressing quite rapidly, while gimp-development seems to have stagnated.

Reply Score: 0

RE: GTK is good...
by Yuske on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:46 UTC in reply to "GTK is good..."
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

Krita has been on development for more than 5 years and it doesn't have the half of the funcionality The GIMP has, you go get some information.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE: GTK is good..."
Anonymous Member since:
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You're right, although most of the time Krita was in development it basically had no developers. Only in the last year or so things have been really moving forward due to the efforts of Boudewijn Rempt and others.

Yes, Krita doesn't have all of Gimp's features, but it is shaping up, and has some features that have been missing in Gimp for ages (CMYK!!).

Go here for a recent snapshot:
http://www.valdyas.org/fading/index.cgi/2005/09/21#klik

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: GTK is good..."
Anonymous Member since:
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[i]features that have been missing in Gimp for ages (CMYK!!)CMYK is not included on [i]

CMYK is not included on the GIMP not because they can't, bacause CMYK is patented, go get some information

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:08 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: GTK is good..."
Anonymous Member since:
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CMYK is not included on the GIMP not because they can't, bacause CMYK is patented, go get some information

you are confusing CMYK with Pantone.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[5]: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: GTK is good..."
RE[6]: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:28 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: GTK is good..."
Anonymous Member since:
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As far I know CMYK is patented too.

It's not. Just like RGB.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:34 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: GTK is good..."
Anonymous Member since:
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MMmm I have to check it out, I read in a blob that
the reason was that.

Reply Score: 0

OT: Registration
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 17:58 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Do registered users have access to a Mitarai-filter? If so, registration might be worth the hassle.

Reply Score: 0

RE: OT: Registration
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:31 UTC in reply to "OT: Registration"
Anonymous Member since:
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I was wondering the same thing.
Mitarai just destroyed any interesting comments... Please add a filter and I will register.

Reply Score: 0

RE: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Krita has been on development for more than 5 years and it doesn't have the half of the funcionality The GIMP has, you go get some information.

Most of the current code-base of Krita has been written in the last 1-1.5 years. There never was a working version of Krita before that and it was not even called Krita. So one can certainly say that Krita is much younger then the gimp.

One of Krita's goals is colorspace-indendence. The current CVS version of Krita supports something like 10 colorspaces, e.g. RGBA8/RGB16, CMYK8, CMYK16, Floating point colorspaces, even special color spaces for wet paint like Corel Painter. Gimp only supports RGBA8.

And Krita has about 50.000 lines of code, while gimp has about 500.000 lines of code. So even if Krita has only half of the functionality of the gimp, it would still show my point: gtk is not a good development environment because it makes it harder and more time-consuming to write programs. For free software developers this is bad because they only have a limited amount of time and resources. For commercial developers it is bad because it costs a lot of money, probably much more then a Qt license.

Don't get me wrong, I am happy that we have gimp and gnumeric and I actually don't care much if they use gtk or Qt when I am just using them. But as a developer I definitely prefer Qt/KDE or Java to gtk/GNOME. gtk might have been good 10 years ago, but software have changed since them and gtk definitely stands no chance against Qt or Java from a developers point of view.

Reply Score: 4

RE: RE: GTK is good...
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:55 UTC in reply to " RE: GTK is good..."
Anonymous Member since:
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If... Only If...

The reality is that Krita doesn't have nearly the functionality nor the filtering options of GIMP and no one should expect it to be so.

Regarding 500,000 lines of code versus 50,000 lines of code, that is similar to say Stone Design's OS X Create 12 with around 200,000 lines of code that can does so damn much most people never get to using all of its functionality. And damn! its only 200,000 lines of code!

Truth be told, AppKit, FoundationKit, CoreData, CoreImaging and all the other Cocoa Frameworks house a crap load of the code that Create leverages, for its specific needs--that's the point of developing in Cocoa and its OO system.

The same is true with Qt and to a varying degree, GTK.

All you are showing is that Qt encapsulates a lot more of your basic functionality present in Krita. Great! That makes the value of Qt increase.

Now lets see how well Qt competes against Cocoa when OS X for x86 is released and folks can leverage superior frameworks for FREE, for all license formats.

If I want to GPL a Cocoa app or BSD the Cocoa app or some highly proprietary app what doesn't change is the license fee Apple charges me and which I would then pass onto my consumers--FREE is FREE.

Hell if I want to fork Krita and rewrite it in Cocoa what are the odds it will actually be more functionally complete and closer to Gimp than if I just bothered to pitch in with Krita and KDE? The odds are strong since I can rip out the C++ code and leverage Objective-C and Cocoa with its well over 100 built-in CoreImaging filters without having to write any of those filters myself.

Perhaps Inkscape should fork a Cocoa project and see how quickly it can catch up to the GTK+ version of Inkscape? Or how about the Gimp re-written in Cocoa and then ported to GNUstep?

Since we're getting really obnoxious, how about the principle engineers of CaffeineSoft, now at Apple, GPL TIFFany 3.x and see what sort of new GPLd Cocoa/GNUstep imaging app hits the market so we can have a crapload of comparison articles on what is or is not superior?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: RE: GTK is good...
by getaceres on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 08:34 UTC in reply to "RE: RE: GTK is good..."
getaceres Member since:
2005-07-06

You're talking about Cocoa that must be better than QT but it does only work for MacOS X. QT instead works for Linux, Windows and MacOS. Can Cocoa do that?
Tomorrow, if they want, they can make a Krita version for Windows or MacOS only recompiling it. Could they make this if they were using Cocoa?

Reply Score: 1

QPL!
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:25 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Qt is GPL or QPL!

And QPL is a non copyleft free software license!

So if you don't like GPL, use QPL ...

Reply Score: 0

ffs kiddies, stfu!
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

i am getting bored to death with the; "QT will die because of xyz licensing issues" argument.

lots of people seem to like it as a development environment, and lots of people seem to like its spawn KDE as a desktop environment, and lots of commercial developers seem to like it too.

QT/KDE will do fine provided they continue to innovate as they have done to date.

and if GTK/Gnome keeps Trolltech on their toes...... all the better for KDE fans like me.

Reply Score: 2

Licensing is a non-issue
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:45 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

1. The market has determined that 2500 is a fair price to pay - if it wasn't Trolltech would be out of business by now, or they would have had to change the price.

2. The cost of licensing comes out to about 2 or 3 weeks pay for a single developer. If a commercial company can't afford to pay that, there is no way their product is going to be successful anyway.

3. Given that the cost is only equivalent to about 100 man-hours, it may actaully save money. The clean api is almost certainly going to save that much time a year if it is used very often.

4. If you don't like the license on personal grounds, then feel free to say so. But don't complain about how it's too expensive. Just come out and say that everything should be available with the BSD license.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Licensing is a non-issue
by Mitarai on Wed 21st Sep 2005 18:49 UTC in reply to "Licensing is a non-issue"
RE[2]: Licensing is a non-issue
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 19:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Licensing is a non-issue"
Anonymous Member since:
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Please, you've made your point, you think everybody else thinks like you except troll. Fine, but get out, so that people can talk between adults...

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Licensing is a non-issue
by segedunum on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Licensing is a non-issue"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Wow, you are:

1.- A TrollTect amployee
2.- A KDE developer
or
3.- an Adoctrinated person.

Your points ar way to far from reality.


What a bunch of absolute sad twits. 89 comments for nothing. Well done. Have you lot not got homes to go to or food to eat?

Look, I know this will pass way over your head you sad little twit, but YOU DO NOT DO PROGRAMMING FOR A LIVING. Leave that to the grown ups who actually do and spend thousands of whatever currency because they feel that good development tools are worth it. Qt is most certainly in that bracket.

If you get some pocket money for a software project at any point in your life feel free to use GTK, and then work out why you have to spend weeks debugging it because it isn't doing what you want it to do.

Reply Score: 2

the future of KDE
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:17 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Looking at KDE 3.5 (beta), reading a lot about the ideas behind KDE 4, using Qt 4 at work....

I can only say that KDE is progressing very rapidly and is (my personal opinion of course :-) ahead already of Gnome, and this gap will be increased when KDE 4 arrives.

Oh.. and about Krita: READ. Yes it is not as far as Gimp, yes it is more buggy... but YES is is progressing at a very high speed and yes it has a way better user interface than Gimp. And yes, I except it will surpass Gimp in about 2 years...

Regards H.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: the future of KDE
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:27 UTC in reply to "the future of KDE"
3.5 beta 1 - Fast & Snappy
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Just upgraded from 3.4.2 to 3.5 beta 1 on Arch Linux (a minimal kdebase and deps setup) - performance and desktop snappiness is excellent - konqueror filemanager is "touch button" instant fast now - very responsive indeed - nice, smooth, glassy feel to the mouse movement - "KDE" in this minimal kdebase format makes an excellent responsive desktop. Kudos and thanks to the KDE devs and the Arch KDE maintainer ;)

Reply Score: 0

License
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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For a clarification: if you write software with QT Free Edition, your application does not have to be GPL! It is enough for it to be open-source, but any open-source license is allowed!

The only cases where you need to pay for QT is
a) when you write freeware as a hobby, but then, if you don't make money off it, what is the problem of making the sources available?
b) when you write software as a business, for a profit, but then, I do not think the prices of QT are soo astronomical as everybody here seems to think. Opera is the proof here: their browser is based on QT Non-Free, yet they still make money, apparently even enough to make the browser itself available for no cost.

Reply Score: 2

v RE: License
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:42 UTC in reply to "License"
RE[2]: License
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE: License"
Anonymous Member since:
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For a clarification: if you write software with QT Free Edition, your application does not have to be GPL! It is enough for it to be open-source, but any open-source license is allowed!

Oh what a reliefe, I only have to show my beloved source code.

When hell freezes over.

Qt license suck ass.


Well, I think that poster just did a better job than I ever could at discrediting the "Qt sucks" crowd. Enough said.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: License
by DigitalAxis on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 03:25 UTC in reply to "RE: License"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

Doesn't the GPL require that you make the source code available to people who get your program, if they want it?

I was under the impression that you could actually sell GPL'd software, and the only stipulation was that someone who bought your product would be entitled to recieve the source code upon asking.

Reply Score: 1

RE: License
by barkley on Wed 21st Sep 2005 21:21 UTC in reply to "License"
barkley Member since:
2005-07-18

Yeah, Qt is good for certain markets, companies that can afford the license fees or those that can give out their source. Unfortunately, that doesn't cover all the bases and could prove troublesome in the future. Gtk+ doesn't suffer from this liability.

Reply Score: 0

QT Licence
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 21:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The only people concerned about the dual licence and paying for the commercial licence are the hypocrites and leeches of our society. I bet they won't allow anyone to take the software they develop to sell, for free.
If you want to develop software to sell, you should pay your dues too.
The fee for the commercial QT licence is not large if you've got a program thats worthy of selling.
Seems like the GTK supporters are only leeches

Reply Score: 2

Same old OSnews shit
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 21:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

We have GTK/GNOME trolls here as always and now we have AppleBoy also.

I'd like to ask you AppleBoy. How Crossplatform is that Cocoa shit? Will it run Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris? OMG! No? Well to bad, if you write it with Qt it will.

I tought this tread was about KDE3.5beta1 and its features and so on...
Yet another tread were gnome fanboys whine about Qt license. If they don't want to pay or use GPL or other OpenSource-license they can use GTK/FLTK/MOTIF or whatever they want. I DON'T CARE. TrollTech has ~4000 PAYING clients so they are not going anywere.
http://ktown.kde.org/akademy2005/unprocessed/TrolltechKeynote-Eirik...
So all you Qt haters can shut the fuck up and use GTK/FLTK/MOTIF and so on, but don't come here to troll.

I don't work for TrollTech. I just like KDE and TrollTech. TrollTech has a good businessmodel and it will benefit the opensource community and Trolltech.

Sorry for my English there might be some typos.

Reply Score: 3

v RE: But what about the Qt license?
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 22:03 UTC
Shade Member since:
2005-07-07

For the last time, the GPL is only a 'real problem' if you are a 'real leech' ;) And as the previous poster said, STFU about it and slam the 3.5 BETA if you have to pick on anything... This is so tired...

Reply Score: 1

Great news!
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 23:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I just saved a ton of money by switching to KDE!

Reply Score: 0

STFU Gnome trolls!
by Anonymous on Wed 21st Sep 2005 23:27 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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gtk+ has a more free license, but you don't have to use Qt!

Reply Score: 0

Nice new features...
by DigitalAxis on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 03:40 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28

There are now three different appearances for Kicker that you can choose from: Elegant (the default), Classic and For Transparency.

That sounds like a good idea

Minipager has received many improvements. It can show icons of applications, background can now show desktop wallpaper or it can be transparent. You can even drag and drop windows from one desktop to another.

About time! XFCE4 allowed you to move windows from workstation to workstation, Enlightenment allows you to do that AND even move them around on the screen.

There are a lot of other behind the scenes improvements to various parts of Konqueror. And now that Apple provided access to their improvements to KHTML and KJS, KDE developers can and did backport them into Konqueror.

http://developer.kde.org/development-versions/kde-3.5-features.html
KHTML: Pass the Acid2 test Allan Sandfeld <kde@carewolf.com>

Ooh, nice! I also like the new Konqueror 'clear and paste upon middle click' function of the location bar.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Nice new features...
by anda_skoa on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 10:34 UTC in reply to "Nice new features..."
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

About time! XFCE4 allowed you to move windows from workstation to workstation, Enlightenment allows you to do that AND even move them around on the screen.

That was about the minipager. KWin has supported dragging windows from desktop to desktop for ages.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Nice new features...
by DigitalAxis on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 13:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Nice new features..."
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

That's what I meant; you can drag things from screen to screen with XFCE4's minipager, and drag them around even the same screen with Enlightenment's.

Reply Score: 1

Cocoa
by Anonymous on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 05:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Too bad you have to buy totally overprized Apple Computers to use cocoa... I think Trolltech would also give away Qt for free if it could charge as much as Apple does for its computers and OS'es.

And what changes when Cocoa is available for x86? You have to buy overprized x86 computers from Apple instead of overprized PowerPC computers from Apple? The only thing that will be different is that it is even more obvious how overprized Apple computers are because you can now directly compare the prizes of Apple hardware to other x86 hardware.

I bought some Fujutsu-Siemens AMD64 computers for about 600 euros a month ago. I can download Linux and use Qt for free if I only want to develop GPL applications. How much is an equivalent powerful Apple computer? 1500 Euros? So 900 Euros more just to use Cocoa, even so I only want to use Cocoa for GPL'ed apps? And every user that wants to use my application has to pay that. That sounds like a really great deal for me.

Reply Score: 0

screenshots of kde 3.5
by Anonymous on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 06:03 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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i stumbled onto these if anyone is interested: http://process-of-elimination.net/wiki/KDE_3.5

Reply Score: 0

Looks like a lot of fun
by chakie on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 06:31 UTC
chakie
Member since:
2005-07-06

I look forward to seeing the final 3.5 in action, it seems to be a great release. There even seems to be Kubuntu packages already available of the beta, maybe I should just install and have a look... ;)

However, this discussion was effectively ruined by some GNOME/GTK "enthusiasts" that did their best to lead the discussions onto irrelevant tracks. So sad, so sad. I wonder why some of the important and/or influential GNOME/GTK persons couldn't step up and tell these trolls to shut up? I feel ashamed when some Qt/KDE troll ruin GNOME discussions, but it seems that hasn't been too frequent lately? The same doesn't hold for the GNOME/GTK trolls in KDE discussions, so maybe it's time for the serious GNOME/GTK community to distance itself from these trolls?

Just a thought...

Reply Score: 1

ark improvement
by Anonymous on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 09:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

"Ark -
Use a treeview for showing archive entries, instead of a flat view"

YES!! Previously, opening a large archive (like the kernel source) in ark has been a nightmare. The flat view means it lists every single file in the archive. Now with a tree view, you can drill down directory by directory (like in winRAR, or in konqueror with the zip:// kioslave) and not have to see every file listed at once.

Might even make it easier to extract a particular directory from the archive.. very good news. I really hope I've understood this correctly ;) Anxiously awaiting a liveCD to check it out.

Reply Score: 0

Voice command
by Anonymous on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 10:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Not sure if anyone realised, but khotkeys can use voice triggers now. It's mega cool. Add some triggers, then for example say 'konqueror' and konqueror opens. KDE rules.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Voice command
by m_abs on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 12:25 UTC in reply to "Voice command"
m_abs Member since:
2005-07-06

Are you serious? Now that's kool ;)

Reply Score: 1

offtopic: suggestion for osnews editors
by karl on Thu 22nd Sep 2005 10:27 UTC
karl
Member since:
2005-07-06

This thread was ruined by 'license trolls' again- as are so many threads on OSNEWS nowadays. Licensing issues *are* important and the last thing I would ever want is to see legitimate discussion suppressed. But let's be honest, 95% of all comments on OSNEWS about licensing comes from trolls who a) don't know what they are talking about b) simply wish to spread FUD c) really enjoy derailing any possible conversation about the post topic.

With this in mind could we get a small interface change to facillitate dealing with 'license trolls'...here is my suggestion:

Add an icon next to the little 'heart symbol' at the bottom of the posts for 'license trolls'. If any posting gets 3 clicks on this new icon that post is automagically modded down to -2 (be sure to make note of the username and IP address of the poster). If the same username/IP address gets a total of 5 clicks on this little symbol all of the comments that they henceforth post will be automatically modded -2 for a period of one month. This system would only work if the editors also actually looked at the content of these posts to ascertain if 'license trolling' is actually taking place-otherwise this feature can and will be abused by nefarious users.

Perhaps an alternative suggestion would better solve this peristent problem- but frankly I am simply exhausted with having to deal with so much infantile abuse. Please implement something that stops the excessive 'license trolling'....

Thanks, in advance.

(and yes I should have sent an email to the editors about this instead of posting it offtopic...)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Nice new features...
by Morty on Fri 23rd Sep 2005 00:20 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

And you can drag from the taskbar and drop on the minipager. You want that minimized app or the app in the background on another desktop, just drag from taskbar to the pager. Real slick bossmode:-)

Reply Score: 1