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And is this OpenDocument format accessible by MS Office users? No? Then doesn't it mean that 95% of the Massachucets (get a spell-able name for that state, people ) population can no longer access their government's files?

And who's fault is it that MS Office doesn't support the OpenDocument format? I guarantee OpenOffice.org, KOffice, and StarOffice have more users than Lotus SmartSuite and WordPerfect combined.

What's keeping people from downloading OpenOffice.org or at least some enterprising company from producing a nice little shareware viewer app or Microsoft Office filter for it?

Quite frankly, I see this move by Massachusetts to be a good thing, and one can only hope the rest of the Government will likewise get out of bed with Microsoft.

So, you basically pick one dominant computer company over the other... At least Microsoft has no access to my chat logs, emails, searching behaviour, files I keep on my computer, etc.

How does Microsoft not have access to these things if you choose to give them access to them? Using MSN, Google, or Yahoo! are choices that we make. I think you've just contradicted yourself. Microsoft had chat, search, and email services long before Google anyway. I do agree that having any company in a massively dominant position is unhealthy, be it Microsoft, Google, or Apple. Healthy competition is best for the industry.

And is this OpenDocument format accessible by MS Office users? No?

Of course it is. Microsoft simply has to implement import/export filters from published specifications. Microsoft's competitors don't have the advantage of published specifications for the Microsoft Office file formats and, by the sounds of it, they will have to get licenses to read or write Microsoft Office file formats for future releases.

Yes this content is available to all Microsoft OS users, just not through any MS software so far.

Thom:

OpenOffice runs on Windows and is available for free. Star Office is available for free if you are running the Java Desktop Live CD. I cannot say whether this liveCD based distro can access NTFS volumes because I haven't tried it yet, but for the cost of a blank disk you can use Star Office on any content you have access to either over the network or on a disk volume that it can safely read. Or you could just BUY Star Office and install it on yer Windows box ; it's a lot cheaper than Office.

IBM's Workplace is coming but I suspect that IBM won't require all manufacturers of new PC's to pay them to install it on their machines in order to keep doing business with them. (o;

KOffice will soon be running under Windows.

The claim that Windows users are being shut out of access to public documents is all hot air, no substance.

[Other] Anonymous poster:

MS doesn't HAVE to do anything unless they want to compete in this space which they seem to be saying they don't. As to the import/export filters those don't actually exist yet, so to a certain degree MS can't provide that functionality [yet]. Others can though, and can do it under Windows as I mentioned above.

On the other hand if they do want to compete in this space they are on the OpenDocument Technical Committee and should have no problem implementing that functionality either directly in their products or, as you suggested, in an add-on product that does the job for end users but makes it somewhat inconvenient for them so that Office seems to be a better choice that they are somehow deprived of becuase the big bad State of Massachussets is denying them their accustomed no-brainer access.

When will KOffice be running under Windows? I have heard no news of a port. Can you provide a link, please?

Thanks.

Inge Wallin mentioned it in his open letter to Alan Yates ( http://dot.kde.org/1127515635/ ):

"Last, but not least: Within a year, KOffice will likely run on Windows as well."

I don't think there is already a real schedule. But this port would depend on KDE 4 so I think one year is optimistic. OTOH KDE 4 strives to eliminate / isolate any X11 dependencies to make kdelibs generally more portable so a supposed KOffice port will benefit from that.

I would take this as a rough estimate. A useful version of KOffice may take longer. (Everything IMHO, from the POV of an outside observer)

At what point are you going to stop posting this amature crap from osviews? I have yet to read anything from that site that isn't mindless dribbel and certainly shouldn't be worthy of being linked to here.

This is OSNEWS, please spare me from the "articles" on osviews that are written like a 6th graders language composition class.

Considering that nearly all the comments about the article are in favor of the article,... it would seem that you are the one out of sync.

You posted this to rip it apart, it seems, but while I don't agree with everything he says, I also don't agree with many of your points.

"And is this OpenDocument format accessible by MS Office users? No? Then doesn't it mean that 95% of the Massachucets (get a spell-able name for that state, people ) population can no longer access their government's files?"

No, it doesn't mean that. While it may (or may not) be true that 95% of the population of Massachusetts has MS Office readily available to them, that still means that 5% do not. But 100% of the population can read OpenDocument files using software that is distributed free of charge, while it currenly isn't clear whether any freely distributed office programs will be able to read MS OpenDoc files. As a part of this program, Massachusetts should distribute copies of OpenOffice.org on CDs at the public libraries to provide accessibility to citizens with limited or no access to the Internet on their home computers.

What we have here is a situation where we continue to have competing document formats. Microsoft was completely included the OASIS OpenDocument specification effort, and yet its representatives reported back that they should pursue their own implementation instead. They decided to pursue a different format, and yet they complain when the MA state government chooses the OASIS format? Microsoft needs to understand that a critical aspect of developing your own format is accepting that you will need to support any other existing formats. The rest of the document world came together on a format so that they can all support a single common format going forward. I'm not aware of any office suite besides MS Office that chose to develop its own going forward. Chances are that many office suites will develop support for MS OpenDoc format, because any Microsoft competitor in the document space has always had to undertake this burden. Welcome to our world, Microsoft. It looks like you'll need to support OpenDocument in Office 12 afterall.

"So, you basically pick one dominant computer company over the other... At least Microsoft has no access to my chat logs, emails, searching behaviour, files I keep on my computer, etc.

There are many people in the world who see Google as a much bigger threat than MS, because Google literally can see *anything* you do, especially now that they also have IM, local search and email. And even WiFi... "

I agree with you in theory, where Google and Microsoft are competitors in the same space. But they aren't. Microsoft is the dominant desktop platform, whereas Google is the leading web platform. The Microsoft lock-in results from the fact that the desktop platform is tied directly to your computer. There is a significant barrier to migrating from one platform to another, and an even more significant barrier to arbitrarily combining technologies on a single desktop platform. The web platform is only connected to your computer through a (more-or-less) standard web interface. If you want to switch from Gmail to any other webmail, just point your browser and sign up. Now, moving your mail from one webmail account to another might be difficult, and this is an inherent drawback to these types of services. If you want to use Yahoo for mail, MSN for mapping, and Google for searching, then you are free to do so.
As with the website example the author gave, this is a problem on the side of the webdesigner, of the deliverer of content. It is the deliviring party's descision to only present information in a certain format; not Microsoft's. Of course MS has a shady track record when it comes to pushing their own standards; but they do NOT force anyone to only present info in .doc. That's a descision the bringer of info makes, probably because he doesn't give a rat's ass about 5% of the computing world. And I don't blame him (or her)."

You're entitled to you opinion as much as anyone else, but expressing this opinion as the Managing Editor of ONews.com (Exploring the Future of Computing) is questionable. Why should anyone read a news site devoted to exploring the world of computing if it's editor-in-chief believes that it is wrong for a government to mandate the delivery of documents in a standard format that every office suite agrees upon except for Microsoft? Who thinks it's acceptable to ignore non-Windows users since they make up a relatively small proportion of the population? Who apparently believes that the future of computing is limited by the demographics of today's computing environment?

Like I said, I respect your right to your own opinion, and I realize that there are many who sympathize with your opinion. However, if you are going to express opinions that justify the treatment of open source and alternative software communities as second-class citizens (of Massachusetts or otherwise), then you should do so anonymously.

I screwed up the formatting, that huge paragraph has a quote in the second half of it, to which the last two paragraphs respond.

You're entitled to you opinion as much as anyone else, but expressing this opinion as the Managing Editor of ONews.com (Exploring the Future of Computing) is questionable.

That's why I expressed my opinion in the comment's section. I could've also just *not* post this article at all. *That* would be bad.

It is quite common for journalists to intertwine opinion with facts/news. It is, however, quite uncommon for journalists to clearly seperate the news/facts from personal opinions. Be happy that OSNews makes this divide.

when did you make the jump from news link poster to journalist?

I seriously think you should listen to the meeting;

http://www.peapodcast.com/msc-oss-sig/MTLC-MAOpenFormats-2005-09-16...

If you still disagree after that point, at a minimum you will be informed.

"And is this OpenDocument format accessible by MS Office users?"

This OpenDocument format is accesible by 100% of PC users, no matter what previous software they have on thier PCs.
Just because one of their programs will not view the documents does not mean that they cannot access the content.

Even if OpenOffice sinks without trace, and all references to it are destroyed, the document format is open, and available, so others can rebuild a reader.
This cannot be said for MS .doc formats (Of various flavours).

To repeat: OpenDocuments can be accessed. By Everyone.

(Personal peeve: Don't attack people/places on their name, Tom!)

(Personal peeve: Don't attack people/places on their name, Tom!)

Then how about spelling my name correctly?

"My money is on Microsoft. They will probably succeed pushing google into irrelevancy, not unlike Netscape. When MS integrates it's web services with their OS, people, business and developers will use it... Sad but true."

I hate to be erring on the side of philosophy (called religion or zealotry in the media), but if you recognize this situation to be "sad" (read: disadvantageous to you and/or others), then why is your money on them? If you recognize that alternatives might be superior, then why is your money on Microsoft?

What I find sad is that so many tech-savvy people see the Windows lock-in as a negative, but don't do anything about it. Don't tell me that you're not a programmer, so you can't contribute. If you can post on OSNews, then you can write documentation (at least in your native language, if not in English.. or you could do translations). If you can complain about bugs or missing features on OSNews, then you can file bug reports!!

Because betting on unlikely outcomes isn't sensible, perhaps? You can use products that aren't made by Microsoft, you can support products that aren't made by Microsoft, you can make a concerted effort to develop and promote products that aren't made by Microsoft, and you can even hope deep-down that products not made by Microsoft triumph over products made by Microsoft, but if you color your analysis with your personal desires you're not doing yourself any favors. I'll take a six-sided die with five faces with ones and one face with your favorite number, and we can place equal bets on what will come up. You pick your favorite number, and I'll pick one. We'll see who walks away with more money. It's not an endorsement of one.

If everyone that dislikes Microsoft congregates together and writes opinions of Microsoft products that deride it, then that's a biased sample. For an obvious comparison, take the globally-popular red-headed stepchild that is the Fox News Channel. If some commentator on the channel refers to people from France as cheese-eating surrender monkeys then that's probably not statistically unusual for commentators on that network, but it doesn't represent the views of the broader population very accurately.

Though you're of course attacking a straw man to begin with, since the original poster said nothing about a Microsoft bias. That is unless the implication of UFOs to you suggest "bias" rather than "tabloid."

Japal, don't waste your time on trying to explain to Kelly the concept of bias.. Read this long entry in my blog in which I explain how that Kelly guy attacked me (and Eugenia before me) and OSNews without reasons:

http://cogscanthink.blogsome.com/2005/09/12/explanation/

Yes, KellyM is the owner of osV.

I posted this story because I hoped it would generate interesting discussion. However, from the low number of replies here, I see that people are very well capable of ignoring the crap articles. Which is good .

Due to the low-quality of previous content on osViews I never read anything there to refrain from providing impressions for what are usually wastes of my time. Upon reading your blog entry, I do find it most-amusing that anyone would suggest that OSNews is anti-Apple. OSNews provides a lot of coverage for Apple and its products, and often in a positive light. I've always considered its staff (even when Eugenia headed up content selection and editorials, and with her criticisms of various Apple decisions) to be pro-Apple. It's just not, well, on the other side of reality which is why the site is of decent-quality and why I read it. I think Kelly could honestly stand to learn something from OSNews if he wants people to read content on his site.

Thom,

I didn't attack you at all.

I did however speak to you privately as to how I disagreed with what you are doing.

The fact that you decided to make this a public matter compells me to take it to that level as well.

Lest you get bitter abouyt it after the fact, ... remember... YOU brought this on.

"If everyone that dislikes Microsoft congregates together and writes opinions of Microsoft products that deride it, then that's a biased sample."

Agreed. But if a fresh sample continually reiterates the same opinions of the first sample over and over again then anyone that disagrees with the group is the biased one.


"For an obvious comparison, take the globally-popular red-headed stepchild that is the Fox News Channel."

Thats not a good example as that is more of an indicator of a group of journalists dictating what should and should not be on the news. When a handful of journalists dictate what they consider newsworth (as opposed to "the people", you get a much greater liklihood for bias to influence what is being published as well as how its published.


"Though you're of course attacking a straw man to begin with, since the original poster said nothing about a Microsoft bias."

Forgive me but when somebody says that they expected to see, "something with ufo's and bill gates anal probing people" that tends to imply that the site has an anti Microsoft bias."


"rather than "tabloid.""

It's not a tabloid either. Rather, its a barometer of what the technology community is thinking at any given time.

> But if a fresh sample continually reiterates the same
> opinions of the first sample over and over again then
> anyone that disagrees with the group is the biased one.

Please let me know when you've successfully completed any study of statistics.

Further, stop moderating my posts down (most of the downmods on my account I suspect are from you) when they do not violate the guidelines provided. I know you aren't quite as effective now that they've deleted your shill accounts, but it's still childish.