Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 7th Oct 2005 18:56 UTC, submitted by Innova
Debian and its clones "As many of our customers know, Libranet is a small company pioneered by the vision of Jon Danzig. The recent passing of Jon Danzig has necessitated changes to the way Libranet runs and does business. Libranet will be undergoing a period of restructuring during which we will not be be taking new orders. Libranet will continue to provide support for our existing customers, and the Libranet forum will remain open."
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bah
by speel on Fri 7th Oct 2005 20:53 UTC
speel
Member since:
2005-07-11

r.i.p Jon

but anyway the libranet guys should just open up the distro and make it free to the pubic and you would get more and more developers into it ah well. Sorry again.

Reply Score: 1

RE: bah
by Accident on Fri 7th Oct 2005 23:11 UTC in reply to "bah"
Accident Member since:
2005-07-29

YES, don't let it die. Open it up. I know it says restructuring but, no new orders? Set it free like 2.8.1!

Reply Score: 1

ohhh well
by Anonymous on Fri 7th Oct 2005 21:39 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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hope it continues to florish. as having used many os. Its one of the best desktop operating system available in all ways.

Reply Score: 0

The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Fri 7th Oct 2005 23:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Ubuntu has been so successful in their open and free approach, so many other distros have taken notice and have changed direction or currently have plans to for the future.

Just look at SUSE's OpenSuSE for one big commercial to free comparison

'The Ubuntu effect' is what I call this 'wake up' call for people to open and free up their products/distros/etc.

Perhaps this could be what Libranet is doing, or perhaps not. In any case, long before Ubuntu came around, had Libranet's newest versions been offered for free (rather than just older version/s of) I probably would've been more interested in it.

Free and open is the future

Reply Score: 0

RE: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Fri 7th Oct 2005 23:54 UTC in reply to "The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "Free and open is the future"

huh? Read the GPL. You can charge for a product. How do you expect Tal and Daniel to put food on their tables? Spend X amount of hours on a distribution, and the work their butts off in their day job? That's a bit unreasonable. It's nice for you to say it, but I bet you don't develop any software, and that it'd be a different story then.

I see no reason why Libranet has to open up Libranet 3, and just because it's restructuring, doesn't mean it's 'dead', as many are presuming. Daniel is young, and at university, he's a busy boy. Tal, is only 22. Give him a break. He's gone from having lost his father, Jon, to having to run the entire Libranet business. That takes an awful lot of time, tell me, when/where does Tal get to relax and just enjoy himself like a normal young man can and does?

As to Ubuntu, I'm sick of hearing about Ubuntu. This thread is about Libranet, not Ubuntu, so as far as I'm concerned it's damn well off-topic. Ubuntu has ABSOLUTELY nothing on Libranet. Nothing. Unless you count a second rate installer, but I prefer a first rate installer. I've seen so many pro Ubuntu sheep, oops, I mean guys/gals, saying "If Libranet 3 was free I'd be using it [instead of Ubuntu]". Says a lot for Libranet doesn't it ;-) People are only using Ubuntu because it's *free* as in beer. I'll dare to say, what many are thinking, that the majority of people using Ubuntu are ex Microsoft Windows refugees, and most them were NEVER paying for Windows anyways, but pirating it. That says a lot about their 'free' attitude doesn't it. They want something for nothing, nothing more, and nothing less. No real appreciation of open source developers. I'm really sick of hearing it. If you don't like Libranet, or Libranet 3, then go elsewhere. Don't bitch about it. You have no rights to expect it to be 'free'. You don't own Libranet, and you have no rights to make these sorts of demands. If you think you do, go see Microsoft and ask them to release Microsoft Windows for free. See how far you get.

Dave

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 00:12 UTC in reply to "RE: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Morgoth, no need to get defensive. I know how you feel about Ubuntu. You've already told it numerous times in the Libranet forum.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 01:34 UTC in reply to "RE: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Since you seem to be well informed Morgoth, is there anything
else other than the installer that separates Libranet from Ubuntu?
/MB

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous Penguin on Sat 8th Oct 2005 05:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

I am not Morgoth, but I can reply.

1)Libranet has Adminmenu, which makes the distro very easy to configure and mantain.
2)Libranet is 100% Debian compatible, and I am beginning to realize that it is the only one (except for Debian itself)
3)Libranet comes with all the commercial plugins, which is a good thing if you are not an experienced user.
4)Libranet comes on 5 Cds, which is good if you are on dial-up.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous Penguin on Sat 8th Oct 2005 05:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh, and I forgot to say: Libranet is rock solid.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sat 8th Oct 2005 13:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

mmm lemme see.

1. adminmenu

2. support

3. forums

4. retains binary compatibility with Debian proper

I think that about covers it.

For sure, Libranet has some issues, and I've written about them in the past, as an impartial reviewer:

http://www.dia.net.au/david/libranet3reviewnormal.pdf

I don't pull too many punches, I honestly believe that Libranet offers good value, even at the current asking price. People don't qualm about paying Apple or Microsoft their prices. And you get a LOT less with those operating systems. People seem to only see the free as in 'beer' with GPL'd stuff, and not the free as in freedom of speech. I really wish people would stop bagging distributions that charge for their hard work. Oh, and I've seen Tal providing a fair amount of support back on various Debian lists over the past few years. Do a google search, and you'll see what I mean.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by protagonist on Sat 8th Oct 2005 15:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
protagonist Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, Adminmenu...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 02:49 UTC in reply to "RE: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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I used Libranet 2.8.1 and recently Kubuntu 5.04 .

Libranet has good administration tools, it helps a lot. But honestly, there wasn't anything that made it "marvelous".

The fact that it uses semi-custom packages and the user has to worry about "pinning" to install more up-to-date packages is more trouble than it's worth

Ubuntu/Kubuntu's approach of full-custom packages works since they keep them up-to-date (ever 6 mos at least).

I know you feel strongly about it, but Libranet (nor any Linux) isn't God's gift to computing.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Clinton on Sat 8th Oct 2005 05:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

I know you feel strongly about it, but Libranet (nor any Linux) isn't God's gift to computing.

Hey! Put a lid on the stink-talk, nervey.

I am quite ambivalent on the subject of Linux. I think it makes a decent desktop (not perfect, but decent), but what really allows it to make Windows look like a polished turd is its scriptability. I can do things in one command statement that would take a team of developers a month to accomplish on Windows (okay, maybe a touch of hyperbole there, but not much).

I like the BSDs too, except NetBSD. I install it once and spent an hour staring at an empty screen with a prompt. We both just sat there staring at each other waiting for each other to tell us what to do.

OS X has a great level of scriptability too (duh), but it costs a lot of money for hardware, so I could only afford a Mini (itís not the size that counts, but what you do with it, right?)

Sidetrack!!! Sorry. Anyway, Libranet may not be the top of the Linux championship ladder, but it is a very nice distribution and I would recommend you buy a copy of their latest version if youíre in the market for a good desktop distro; or rather I would make such a recommendation if it were possible get. Which itís not. So I wonít.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 11:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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">> I know you feel strongly about it, but Libranet (nor any Linux) isn't God's gift to computing."

"> Hey! Put a lid on the stink-talk, nervey."

This is not "stink-talk", it's the truth.

"I am quite ambivalent on the subject of Linux. I think it makes a decent desktop (not perfect, but decent), but what really allows it to make Windows look like a> polished turd is its scriptability."

The argument is not that Windows is better, it's that Linux is far from perfect. It's a UNIX-like OS, it's not surprising that allows you to script galore.

The point of my comment is that many people seem to ignore the huge problems that Linux (or FBSD, or many other free UNIXes) have and say "See, it's prime for the desktop!"

Sorry, it isn't prime for the desktop. And for the record, I'm no MS fanboy, I use and develop with a multitude of UNIXes (Linux, FBSD, OBSD, NetBSD).

Kubuntu, Ubuntu, Gentoo, Libranet, doesn't matter, there is still a long way to go.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sat 8th Oct 2005 12:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "Sorry, it isn't prime for the desktop."

I disagree. It's fine. It depends on the person using it. But, then, the average person using Microsoft Windows has absolutely NO idea on what they're doing. Does that mean Windows isn't ready for the desktop?

Now - before you say I'm wrong, think about this. I work in the IT industry, on a helpdesk, providing support to dumbass people. And let me tell you, 95% of my customers, are dumb when it comes to computers. And, worse, they don't want to learn. They want someone to wipe their bums when they f--k up. I get paid, so I don't mind. Windows users and Windows itself, is not ready for the desktop. Until a operating system learns to telepathically communicate with the user, and has an artificial intelligence, that allows it to think creatively, on the fly, without constraints, we're not going to have a 'ready' desktop.

Dave

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 21:44 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I disagree. It's fine. It depends on the person using it. But, then, the average person using Microsoft Windows has absolutely NO idea on what they're doing. Does that mean Windows isn't ready for the desktop?

Now - before you say I'm wrong, think about this. I work in the IT industry, on a helpdesk, providing support to dumbass people. And let me tell you, 95% of my customers, are dumb when it comes to computers. And, worse, they don't want to learn. They want someone to wipe their bums when they f--k up. I get paid, so I don't mind. Windows users and Windows itself, is not ready for the desktop. Until a operating system learns to telepathically communicate with the user, and has an artificial intelligence, that allows it to think creatively, on the fly, without constraints, we're not going to have a 'ready' desktop.

Dave"

Thanks Dave, you hit it right on the head! That's what I've been thinking for the longest time.

The easiest OS I have used by far was the Atari ST's TOS/GEM. "Even a monkey could figure it out" (and that's a quote from the guy I bought mine from back in 1992.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:09 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

It's true. The majority of Microsoft Windows users have no idea what they are doing. Try a test - ask them to tell you what version of Windows they're using. I've had people tell me, "I'm using Windows 98", and they're so sure. I get them to actually check and it turns out it's Windows XP. And, the sad thing is, they didn't have ANY idea on how to check for the version, at least, not until I showed them. Some people, when asked, go "Windows", and when I ask what version, they go, "It's just windows, what do you mean version?". I'm deadly serious here. If it wasn't so sad, I'd be laughing myself to death. People have no idea of the differences between a software application and the device drivers. And the list of inabilities goes on and on. If people cannot do such basic things with their computer, then it's due to one of two things (or a combination of the two):

1. Lack of knowledge

2. The operating system is too hard for the average person to use.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Mon 10th Oct 2005 00:06 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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LOL

Dave, do a google for 'windows for telepaths'


bluesdog

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Clinton on Sun 9th Oct 2005 06:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Clinton Member since:
2005-07-05

Perhaps it is your truth. It isn't mine.

Here's what I want (pulled from work just yesterday).

I want a desktop where I can type just one line on the command line to do all of the following:

1) Recursively traverse a directory structure looking for filenames with the HTM and HTML file extensions.

2) Open each of these files and search for the string "charset=Windows-1252".

3) Change this string to "charset=utf-8" if found.

4) Save the file.

5) Save a printable log file of the entire transaction.

Windows just can't do it. There's no power there.

That's the sort of thing I do with my desktop. What do you do with yours?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sat 8th Oct 2005 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "The fact that it uses semi-custom packages and the user has to worry about "pinning" to install more up-to-date packages is more trouble than it's worth "

huh? That's bullshit. I'll spell it out for you: simply change your /etc/apt/sources.list to point to Sarge, get rid of /etc/apt/preferences and do a dist-upgrade. Done. As to custom packages, bullshit. 99% of them are from Debian testing (pre Sarge release). The few that aren't, are either from Ubuntu (xorg), or something like Opera (in fact, Opera is the only package I can think of that is a custom package).

Quote: "But honestly, there wasn't anything that made it "marvelous". "

And neither is there anything about Ubuntu that makes it marvelous.

Quote: "Ubuntu/Kubuntu's approach of full-custom packages works since they keep them up-to-date (ever 6 mos at least)."

Wah? Keep them up to date? Like hell they do. The packages don't get updated until the next release, six months down the track. You might get some security updates etc, if you're lucky. Want to get more up to date packages during that six months? Sure, pin to Etch/Sid/Scud and watch your Ubuntu system break. It's a fact - Ubuntu breaks binary compatibility with Debian proper. Libranet does NOT do this. As to Kubuntu, last time I tried it, KDE was what I considered to be so heavily butchered that it wasn't worth even playing with.

Quote: "I know you feel strongly about it, but Libranet (nor any Linux) isn't God's gift to computing."

Did I say it was?

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?
by rm6990 on Sat 8th Oct 2005 17:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

You might get some security updates etc, if you're lucky

Ubuntu is actually very quick at releasing security updates. I have experience with RHEL, and I can say for sure that Ubuntu is much much much quicker than Red Hat even in this regard. I've seen next day patches for a lot of security flaws in Ubuntu. I'm lucky if I see next week with Red Hat.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

I doubt next day patch releases - simply due to the fact that there aren't that many developers working on Ubuntu, and they have a shitload of packages to try to maintain.

The thing that gives Ubuntu an advantage is the fact that Mark is filthy rich. Say, if someone donated $10 million to Debian, or Libranet, I'd bet you see them start to show some benefit from it. If Mark was that serious about helping open source, he'd have donated it to Debian, instead of starting up his own thing. With what he's done, he's basically threatened Debian proper and created unrest within the open source community. Mark didn't sit for the Debian leadership, because he knew that his ideas had absolutely no chance in hell of securing enough votes to win. So, he created his own thing.

Sure, Debian, is a bit slow. But - it is the most stable of all distributions, and it adheres to the FSF guidelines the closest. Debian offers a great deal of flexibility, and power, depending on the user. Debian Sid is just as "up to date" as Ubuntu, in fact, it's more up to date, simply because the packages are in a constant state of flux, whereas Ubuntu is locked for six months.

There are two reasons (that I see) why Ubuntu was so popular from the start - It had the *very* latest version of Gnome in it, which meant you didn't have to tinker to get it working (every other distribution had to). For those that wanted the latest Gnome, and didn't want to wait, wanted a Debian based system, it was a must have. There will come a time when Ubuntu will show serious harm to Debian, it's not a matter of if, but when. In fact, Ubuntu will most probably kill of not only Debian, but any of the other Debian based distributions, and this is bad for business. It makes Ubuntu no different to Microsoft, in that it becomes a monopoly. Linux, and open source, is about choice, and Ubuntu is starting to kill that choice.

I'll make a supposition here - if Ubuntu hadn't existed, and Libranet had lowered the price for Libranet 3 to what many consider as a more reasonable price level, then Libranet 3 would have TOTALLY kicked ass and owned.

Libranet isn't perfect, but it's a pretty damn good desktop/server/developer workstation setup. It's easy to install, reliable and secure, retains full compatibility with Debian proper and has some unique and innovative features (ie. adminmenu). It has excellent support, and excellent user forums. Don't get me wrong, Libranet can improve in many ways:

1. Libranet 3 is too expensive imho, needs to be around US $39 to be totally competitive.

2. Adminmenu has to have several more features added to it (some of which I've submitted to Daniel already).

3. Libranet needs to offer a DVD version for purchase, along side the 5 CD set. If one elects to download the DVD iso, then they should get a discount over buying a pressed CD set.

4. Needs to attract a developer community around it, and then start working on including things like SELinux, Xen integration etc. Suse and Redhat have serious advantages here.

5. Definitely needs to include paper documentation with the "boxed set"

6. Needs to set up a Wiki similar to Ubuntu's or Gentoo's most excellent wikis.

The problem is, that's a lot of work, and with only one full time developer (Tal), and one part time developer (Daniel), it's almost impossible. Imagine if some rich bastard donated $1 million dollars to a "Libranet fund", and Tal could then hire developers etc. The possibilities would be grand to see!

Dave

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:38 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"if Ubuntu hadn't existed"

Someone's off their rocker

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:43 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Am I? I made a supposition. Go and read the dictionary again. To save you some time (and effort), here it is:

supposition
n 1: a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence [syn: guess, conjecture, surmise, surmisal, speculation, hypothesis] 2: a hypothesis that is taken for granted; "any society is built upon certain assumptions" [syn: assumption, supposal] 3: the cognitive process of supposing [syn: supposal]

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"And neither is there anything about Ubuntu that makes it marvelous."

What planet did you come from? Planet Corporation-We-Want-Yo-Money-Homie? Ubuntu is Linux for human beings, I think that's marvelous.

I think it's wonderful that someone cares enough about others to support Ubuntu to make it available to any human being who wants it, free.

Linux for human beings, free.

Human beings PAY for too many things in this world already, thankfully Ubuntu is one completely free thing they can have and hold, for rich or for poor, without concern.

I love Ubuntu and the free philosophy it has, and I love Ubuntu's like minded community.

People who bash others and defend any commercial system over free don't have my respect.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:38 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "What planet did you come from? Planet Corporation-We-Want-Yo-Money-Homie? Ubuntu is Linux for human beings, I think that's marvelous."

No, you offended me by calling me a "homie". Firstly, I'm not American, secondly, my socio-economic upbringing is far from the 'homie' shit. As to Ubuntu being Linux for human beings, wah? Since when aren't other Linux distributions for human beings? Please do explain. And business makes the world go around. As much as I dislike money, we're stuck with it.

Quote: "I think it's wonderful that someone cares enough about others to support Ubuntu to make it available to any human being who wants it, free."

Sure. And if Mark really cares about Linux, and open source, would he kindly donate money to other non profit Linux distributions, so that they too can have a chance? I don't think so. This is Mark's personal grab at power. Nothing more, and nothing less. I trust him about as much as I trust a fox in a heshian bag full of chickens.

Quote: "Human beings PAY for too many things in this world already"

Ahh, I just love this comment. Yes, sure, we do. Tell me, what religion are you? I ask this, because it's something that's relevant to my argument that I wish to present. Let me make the presumption that you are Catholic. Now, the Roman Catholic church, is filthy rich. In fact, it hoards enough money to make sure that no one who's poor, will ever live poor again. My question is, why are they hoarding the money, instead of actually helping people with it? Think about that for a little while.

Quote: "I love Ubuntu and the free philosophy it has, and I love Ubuntu's like minded community."

For homework, re-read the GPL. Free has two definitions. You get a F-.

Quote: "People who bash others and defend any commercial system over free don't have my respect."

No, you just want free, as in beer. And anyone else, that disagrees with your [lame] argument(s) is suddenly wrong. Commercial systems are part of modern society, whether we like it or not. Tell me, who pays for Tal's dinner? Do you work? If so, do you get paid for that work. Tell you what, let's say, that, for the better of society, no one gets paid anymore. There goes your paypacket. Happy now? Of course, those that are filthy rich, don't need money anymore, since they've successfully hoarded it. They have money to draw on, you'd have nothing. See who'd last longer.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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You may entertain yourself trolling here but time is the true test, and in due time we'll see just how popular and long lasting commercial Linux distributions vs. free are.

Then you can join the ranks of old bitter men who sit around griping like many do now about such silly things like how the commodore is far superior to the IBM-PC.

Time is precious, how much of it are you willing to waste bickering? If that's how you value your time, great, have fun.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 01:17 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

hahaha! Trolling, that's a good one. Whatever you reckon. So now, because I don't believe that the GPL was ever intended to make ALL software released under it as being "free as in beer", I'm wrong? Go and talk to Richard Stallman, go on. And you'll see how wrong you are. People who want Linux to be free, and by that I mean free as in beer, are nothing but freeloaders. They want to take someone elses hard work, and thumb their noses at it. They're the sort of people who pirate Microsoft Windows and say "I'm not paying for that shit". I presume you work, yes? Tell me, if the products that your company makes are made totally free, your company will get no profits. And no profits, means no wages for you. Would you be happy with your employer turning around and saying to you "sorry, but we can't pay you any wages anymore, you'll have to work for free".

Just because it's Linux, or open source, doesn't mean it that it MUST be free as in beer. Learn to grok better. If you don't believe me, email RMS, go on. rms@gnu.org. That's his email address. He's quite a nice guy as well I might add.

Quote: "Then you can join the ranks of old bitter men who sit around griping like many do now about such silly things like how the commodore is far superior to the IBM-PC."

hahaha, no! I didn't use computers then. I wasn't interested in computers until circa 1997. Before then, computers didn't hold a single interest for me. I had friends with commodores and amigas and they wore dead boring. Each system has its own advantages, but the IBM-PC is much more modular. And that is good for business.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:06 UTC in reply to "RE: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"huh? Read the GPL. You can charge for a product."

And thousands of projects and the majority of Linux distributions' maintainers DO NOT.

"How do you expect Tal and Daniel to put food on their tables?"

I'm sorry, I'm not on a first name basis with those who maintain any distribution, be it free or not. I don't know anything about the person(s) behind Libranet Linux. Frankly, I don't need a guilt trip or any other type of sob story to try and motivate me to use a particular distro or continue using one. If someone wants to support themselves by offering a distro, fine, I think that's cool, but it's THEIR choice. Please don't try and spin the blame around on the users (and it's the USERS who make a distro successful or not in the end) and play the violin guilt trip song, that's just wrong. Honestly, if I use a distro it's not going to be because I'm helping someone (I can donate to places like the Red Cross for that) it's because that distro has something to offer ME and has a philosophy that I agree with. If I wanted to PAY for a distribution I would, but I don't.

"Spend X amount of hours on a distribution, and the work their butts off in their day job? That's a bit unreasonable. It's nice for you to say it, but I bet you don't develop any software, and that it'd be a different story then."

Gentlemen, pack your bags, we're going on a guilt trip care of the "I bet you don't" yadda yadda express! Actually, yes, I do develop software and I make it available for free because that's part of my philosophy. I believe in helping others for free and my reward (payment) for that is whatever positive benefit they receive from my work.

"I see no reason why Libranet has to open up Libranet 3, and just because it's restructuring, doesn't mean it's 'dead', as many are presuming."

Get out of the house much?

"Daniel is young, and at university, he's a busy boy. Tal, is only 22. Give him a break. He's gone from having lost his father, Jon, to having to run the entire Libranet business. That takes an awful lot of time, tell me, when/where does Tal get to relax and just enjoy himself like a normal young man can and does?"

Everyone makes their own choices in life. If this is a business why are we getting so personal? Jesus, everyone has misfortune in their lives it's called reality. Since we're getting personal here, maybe I should have my crippled friend on the street make a distribution from Debian, and then tell his sad story to you. He's lost all of his family, feeds roaches in the gutters and sewers until they get fat enough to eat, and doesn't know what toothpaste smells like. You want to feel sorry for someone? Feel sorry for those who face the pain of reality harsher than most, those who are still trying to take care of their basic needs: food and shelter.

"As to Ubuntu, I'm sick of hearing about Ubuntu. This thread is about Libranet, not Ubuntu, so as far as I'm concerned it's damn well off-topic."

Do you police all the threads for off-topic banter? AFAIC then by your logic you've gone off-topic too by talking about Ubuntu AND by talking about the PERSONAL MATTERS of BUSINESS people. A lot of people are sick of hearing about Ubuntu, because it's so popular and widly successful and anyone can use it for free, even have it sent to them without being charged for something underneath (Debian) that was really FREE to begin with.

"Ubuntu has ABSOLUTELY nothing on Libranet."

I thought this wasn't a Ubuntu thread? LOL! OMG! YOU'RE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES! LOL ;)

"People are only using Ubuntu because it's *free* as in beer."

There's a lot more than that to it, considering there are hundreds of free distributions of Linux.

"what many are thinking, that the majority of people using Ubuntu are ex Microsoft Windows refugees, and most them were NEVER paying for Windows anyways, but pirating it. That says a lot about their 'free' attitude doesn't it."

Debian is free, it's a shame some people have to charge for their distributions which are based on Debian. People can try and demonize Ubuntu all they want, but the fact remains that it's still one of the most popular distributions and I don't see that fact fading away any time soon.


"I'm really sick of hearing it."

I'm sick of hearing jealous people spout poison.

"If you don't like Libranet, or Libranet 3, then go elsewhere. Don't bitch about it."

If you don't like Ubuntu, then go elsewhere. Don't bitch about it.

"You have no rights to expect it to be 'free'."

If your sick attitude is what makes up the Libranet 'community' I have no right to WANT to be a part of it. I have EVERY right to expect ANYTHING in this world to be free. I have EVERY right to expect a Debian based distro especially to be free. I have EVERY right to think how I please. For someone to talk about 'NO RIGHTS' in a Linux community makes me sick. That's against the free and open philosophy that makes Linux work. Without Debian, where would Libranet be? I pity you.

"You don't own Libranet, and you have no rights to make these sorts of demands."

The poster who mentioned Ubuntu and free made no demand, so why are you being bitter? They were speculating. Do they not deserve the right to speculate? And your post was modded up for spouting bullshit and sympathy? Jesus Christ, give me a break!

"If you think you do, go see Microsoft and ask them to release Microsoft Windows for free. See how far you get."

If they take Debian and release a Microsoft Linux from it, I would ask them to release it for free, but to date they have not.

Please, there are millions of people in the world who can't even afford a computer, anyone who can and chooses to support themselves with a distribution is making a choice, usually a grown up adult choice, and we live with our choices.

Peddle your fiddle playing to the poverty stricken streets of India or Thailand and see how much they mod you up, troll.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 12:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Somehow I missed this post...

Quote: "And thousands of projects and the majority of Linux distributions' maintainers DO NOT."

And many do. Your point is?

Quote: "I'm sorry, I'm not on a first name basis with those who maintain any distribution, be it free or not."

Well, many people are. It's nice to be able to talk to the developers.

Quote: "I don't need a guilt trip or any other type of sob story to try and motivate me to use a particular distro or continue using one."

And I never portrayed a guilt trip or sob story. Learn to read. Learn to comprehend basic English. I said that they have the right to charge for their hard word. Like many others, they need money so that they can put food on the table, and keep a roof over their heads, etc. That's only common sense.

Quote: "If I wanted to PAY for a distribution I would, but I don't."

That's fine, but others, may want to pay for a distribution, if they are happy with it.

Quote: "Gentlemen, pack your bags, we're going on a guilt trip care of the "I bet you don't" yadda yadda express!"

Nice sarcasm. On yer bike!

Quote: "Actually, yes, [snip]work."

Good for you! That's your choice. The GPL gives you that choice. You can also elect to charge for your work. It's a personal thing.

Quote: "Get out of the house much?"

Plenty, you?

Quote: "If this is a business why are we getting so personal?"

I merely stated a fact. Everyone has a personal side, as well as a "business" side. Tal, has hobbies. So does Daniel. So do I for that matter, and pretty much most people.

Quote: "Feel sorry for those who face the pain of reality harsher than most, those who are still trying to take care of their basic needs: food and shelter."

Ah, now this is a sob story, as you so succinctly put it. Sometimes, people are partly responsible themselves, and sometimes, society is just plain nasty. Sometimes, it's a combination of both, or even more issues. I choose to blame society as a whole. Society fails to act in a responsible manner, as a whole. But anyways, this is getting OT, so I will not digress further on this particular argument.

Quote: "AFAIC then by your logic you've gone off-topic too by talking about Ubuntu AND by talking about the PERSONAL MATTERS of BUSINESS people."

I've replied to several pro Ubuntu posters. If they hadn't replied, chances are, the word "Ubuntu" would never have been uttered by myself. And remember - there are actually people behind Linux! Yes, real people. They have lives. Libranet is a living, breathing distribution, and part of that is the developers. It's nice to be able to talk to the developers and build some semblance of a relationship with them. It's a nice touch that is sadly missing from most businesses these days.

Quote: "I thought this wasn't a Ubuntu thread? LOL! OMG! YOU'RE BREAKING YOUR OWN RULES! LOL ;) "

See above comment.

Quote: "There's a lot more than that to it, considering there are hundreds of free distributions of Linux."

Not really. I've already previously pointed out why Ubuntu is so popular. But, for you, I'll point it out again:

1. Free (as in beer)
2. Free CDs sent to you at request (saving download time)
3. Latest Gnome desktop environment
4. Single CD (which pleases many) with best of breed applications (and little else I might add).
5. Quick to install (not necessarily easy).
6. Good hardware support (not necessarily great, Kanotix does a much better job imho).
7. Based on Debian (presumed stability and reliability that comes with Debian proper). Also, being able to use the apt/dpkg package management system, which is a lot better than rpm.
8. Much media attention
9. Sheep factor

I think that about covers most of it. In truth, Ubuntu is good in many areas, but not outstanding.

Quote: "Debian is free, it's a shame some people have to charge for their distributions which are based on Debian."

You really do not grok the GPL, do you? I suggest you email RMS and talk with him about the finer points of the GPL. You might even learn something.

Quote: "I'm sick of hearing jealous people spout poison."

Well, you didn't hear that from myself. I stated reasonable, logic, non emotional reasons for preferring Libranet, and also for why I believe that Ubuntu is overrated. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Quote: "If you don't like Ubuntu, then go elsewhere. Don't bitch about it."

Oh, very smart. Read the topic. It says:

"Libranet Restructuring"

I think I'm on topic, and I think I surely can stay. You, however...

Quote: "If your sick [snip] you."

Ah. Actually, you have no right to expect everything to be free. If you really believe that, expect not to pay for your car insurance. House insurance. Medical insurance. Transportation costs to work. Taxes. And the list goes on. See how far you get with your argument. I wish you luck. And again, with expecting a Debian based distribution to be free, you're wrong. Read the GPL. Comprehend it. I'm not going to explain it to you, you can get off your lazy ass and do your own research. I'm not here to spoonfeed imbeciles like yourself. As to Debian, and Libranet, Libranet recognises Debian. See:

http://www.libranet.com/about

Quote: "And your post was modded up for spouting bullshit and sympathy?"

No, I suspect that it was modded up because people actually agreed with me. Nothing more, and nothing less. You don't have to like my comments, in fact, you can mod them down if you want - that's if you have the balls to actually get an osnews.com account and stop hiding behind anonymity.

Quote: "If they take Debian and release a Microsoft Linux from it, I would ask them to release it for free, but to date they have not."

And you know what they'd tell you, don't you. Again, read and grok the GPL.

Quote: "Please, there are millions of people in the world who can't even afford a computer, anyone who can and chooses to support themselves with a distribution is making a choice, usually a grown up adult choice, and we live with our choices."

That's right. And if they want, they can use Ubuntu. Or Debian. Or Fedora. Or OpenSuse. And the list goes on. I don't have a problem with free (as in beer). I do have a problem with Ubuntu, in that it is very overrated (imho). And, that many people just want something for nothing, without any care for those that make it all tick. That's the real issue I see. Oh, and tell me, if Linus wants to charge Libranet because it's using the Linux trademark, and is a business, how does Libranet pay for that? Swiss air? Please explain. And if that is the case, then, can you please start berating Linus for his actions? Because, quite frankly, that's against the "spirit of Linux".

Quote: "Peddle your fiddle playing to the poverty stricken streets of India or Thailand and see how much they mod you up, troll."

Great post. Really. Great post. The last thing on someone's mind from India or Thailand is a computer, or an operating system. And even free, as in beer, operating systems won't help them much. However, if the richer nations actually got off their butts and helped the poorer nations, for the betterment of humanity, we'd actually get somewhere as a species. Instead, the rich nations want to get richer. Tell me, why do so many US corporations enlist slave labour in poor, 3rd world nations? I mean, if what you're saying is true, shouldn't those US corporations be paying those poor employees the same pay rates as their US counterparts? In the interest of helping them establish a better economy etc, etc. Anyways, this has drawn off topic, with your incessant, and imbecilic rantings.

Are you perhaps related to Grendel? I hear she was a fine troll.

Have a nice day!

Dave

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Mon 10th Oct 2005 07:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Morgoth,

you make some good points, but they're very hard to take seriously if you mock people for their choices. Is it necessary to call Ubuntu users sheep? I have used a good many distros over the years and am using Ubuntu currently...not because everyone else does, but because I like it most.

Last time I tried Libranet (not recently, though), I didn't even get it to install on vanilla hardware. I paid for it, it didn't work for me, no problem, i've moved on. I don't expect my OS to be free (beer), so please don't call me a freeloader.

By posting in the abrasive manner that you are, you are not doing Libranet any favours. You just come off like you hate Ubuntu for being successful...not cool.

Finally, if some people are exposed to Linux through the media exposure of Ubuntu, why would that be a bad thing? If they end up using another distro, such as Libranet, then that's cool...one less supporter of the MS monopoly.

Dan

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?
by morgoth on Mon 10th Oct 2005 21:30 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: The Ubuntu effect?"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "Is it necessary to call Ubuntu users

?"

That's because, most people in life are sheep. They do what they're told, when they're told, go where they're told, and jump as high as they're told. Nothing more, and nothing less. I've seen enough in my life so far to be absolutely convinced of this. As the old saying goes "keeping up with the Joneses".

Quote: "Is it necessary to call Ubuntu users sheep?"

My earlier quote, referenced to sheep, says:

"I've seen so many pro Ubuntu sheep"

it does not indicate that everyone is a sheep (who uses Ubuntu).

Quote: "I didn't even get it to install on vanilla hardware."

Curious, was this Libranet 2.8.1 or 3.0? Did you contact support for help (I presume so)?

Quote: "By posting in the abrasive manner that you are, you are not doing Libranet any favours."

This is my normal posting manner, I'm not changing it for you, Libranet, or anyone else. I post in my own style, and I say what I see. If others get offended by that, tough shit. I'm certainly not going to wrap anyone up in cotton wool.

Quote: "You just come off like you hate Ubuntu for being successful...not cool."

Someone else said this [on the Libranet forums actually]. No, I don't hate Ubuntu, but I certainly dislike it, and I certainly dislike all of the media attention, over a distribution that is certainly very average, and much overrated and overhyped. As to being 'not cool', I'm not out to be "cool". I couldn't give a rats ass about being "cool".

Quote: "if some people are exposed to Linux through the media exposure of Ubuntu, why would that be a bad thing?"

True. But again, I dislike the media darlings. It's nothing more than outright bandwagoning and favouritism, and in the vast majority of cases from my experience, the favouritism is highly unwarranted. Again, we have the sheep factor. Or Lemming factor if you prefer? Very few humans actually think for themselves these days, very few contain an ounce of an original thought in their dull, grey, sheep-brains. They're pre-programmed robots, nothing more, and nothing less.

Quote: "If they end up using another distro, such as Libranet, then that's cool...one less supporter of the MS monopoly."

True. But - if the US had a *real* government, the Microsoft monopoly would have been taken care of a long time ago. Since the US government is nothing more than an undemocratic, corporate and rich favouring system of control, I don't expect the right thing to happen.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: The Ubuntu effect?
by Anonymous on Tue 11th Oct 2005 01:42 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: The Ubuntu effect?"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Very well said. I admire your insight and your frankness. Let's hope that Libranet is going to be available soon again, I want to buy it.

Reply Score: 0

RE: The Ubuntu effect?
by the_trapper on Sat 8th Oct 2005 02:16 UTC in reply to "The Ubuntu effect?"
the_trapper Member since:
2005-07-07

Ubuntu has been so successful in their open and free approach, so many other distros have taken notice and have changed direction or currently have plans to for the future.

Just look at SUSE's OpenSuSE for one big commercial to free comparison

'The Ubuntu effect' is what I call this 'wake up' call for people to open and free up their products/distros/etc.


That's funny. I seem to recall a certain little pioneering distro called Fedora Core that did the exact same thing before Ubuntu came on the scene.

<facts>
Ubuntu 4.10 (The Warty Warthog): October 2004

Fedora Core 1 (Yarrow): November 2003
</facts>

I'm sure Ubuntu is great and all...but they certainly didn't pioneer their development model.

Oh, and regarding SuSE/OpenSuSE, that move was most likely in response Red Hat, which SuSE (rightfully) sees as it's major competitor. There is some competition coming from Ubuntu, but Ubuntu isn't really strong in the server/corporate workstation space yet and probably just a peripheral blip on Novell/SuSE's proverbial radar.

Reply Score: 1

Adminmenu vs Gnome Control Center + GST?
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 10:24 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

As a Gnome user I'm curious as to how (User) Adminmenu in Libranet compares with Gnome Control Center + Gnome System Tools in Ubuntu. Looking at the screenshots, I would say that the only administrative item Ubuntu doesn't have is a graphical X configuration utility. I know I can dpkg-reconfigure, but this is not exactly user friendly. (BTW I don't know why they haven't already taken X config code from somewhere - for example, there is an excellent new Alterator configuration tool by AltLinux).

Reply Score: 0

Ubuntu
by Anonymous on Sat 8th Oct 2005 16:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I'm a bandwidth challenged user without access to Debian CDs... I used Libranet 2.8 for about two years or so, and then shifted to Ubuntu when I got my new laptop (got those free CDs they distribute). While Ubuntu is a GREAT distro, I hate the fact that it isn't 100% Debian compatible. My present setup is a Debian Unstable/Experimental + Hoary/Breezy mix and it takes quite an effort to maintain. With Libranet, the only thing I used the Libranet repository for was adminmenu, the rest of it was all Sid/Experimental...
Ubuntu's a great distro, but, in my experience, Libranet's the best Debian distro around, regardless of the level of user expertise. Ubuntu doesn't have anything that comes close to adminmenu. Sure, the Gnome admin tools are nice, but try to use the 'network-admin'tool with a 5MB hosts file and you'll see that they're far from perfect.

Reply Score: 0

Drugs are bad
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:31 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

"It makes Ubuntu no different to Microsoft, in that it becomes a monopoly"

Are you high?

You may enjoy your distribution, but it's not a religion, it's a distribution, put down the crack pipe.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Drugs are bad
by morgoth on Sun 9th Oct 2005 00:40 UTC in reply to "Drugs are bad"
morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Quote: "Are you high? "

No. Are you? I don't do drugs.

Quote: "You may enjoy your distribution, but it's not a religion, it's a distribution, put down the crack pipe."

Did I say it's a religion? I stated a fact - if Ubuntu kills off other Debian based distributions, then it's the only competitor in the market, and that, by definition, is a monopoly.

You really need to go back to school and learn some basics of common sense. Another F-.

Dave

Reply Score: 1

Ubuntu rules
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 02:01 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

morgoth,

get a life, seriously

Reply Score: 0

All Linux distros for free?
by Anonymous Penguin on Sun 9th Oct 2005 05:28 UTC
Anonymous Penguin
Member since:
2005-07-06

That is utter BS. Maybe the Libranet business model is too inflexible (too expensive and the only freebie is a 2 years old version-but still very good I must say), but do you think that all the commercial distributions live off wealthy men donations?
I'll mention a few: SUSE, Mandrake and Xandros. All of them give you some freebie, but all of them have some form of revenue.

My favourite example is SUSE: since 9.1 there has been no need to buy it, it has been given away including commercial plugins, Nvidia...

And yet I read everywhere people saying that they are going to buy the boxed edition.

As for me I don't care if a distro is free as in beer or if I have to pay for it: I must like it, and then I'll happily pay, it is only fair. And if it is not available for purchase I donate.
The only exception is when a distro is overpriced. Clearly Libranet 3.0 was (IMO, of course)

Reply Score: 1

v No poo on my shoe - I love ubuntu
by Anonymous on Sun 9th Oct 2005 08:56 UTC
Anonymous Member since:
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Congrats! You are an excellent member of the sheep. I bet until yesterday you were kissing Bill's ass. And tomorrow? Who knows... certainly if you had lived in Nazi German you would have worshipped the Fuhrer.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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"Congrats! You are an excellent member of the sheep."

Sorry, Ubuntu is for humans.

Is Libranet for sheep? Please tell us, you seem to enjoy talking about asses, Nazis, and other weird stuff, you must know about what animals enjoy I would guess?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Ubuntu is just another distro, no better (definitely) or worse than many others.
It is lemmings who annoy me. They would follow any hype, any fashion. I'd bet anything that at least 90% of Ubuntu zealots don't use it because they like it, but because the the mass does so. Same as Gentoo yesterday and Winbloze the day before.
These kind of people are dangerous, because they follow leaders wherever they take them, no matter if it is a world war.

Reply Score: 1

morgoth Member since:
2005-07-08

Excellent and lucid point.

Dave

Reply Score: 2

The Ubuntu effect?
by viator on Tue 11th Oct 2005 04:04 UTC
viator
Member since:
2005-10-11

I use Libranet and have on a laptop ubuntu. I like libranet because it is 100% debain compatable. People will use what works for their needs, most people just keep trying distros till it works on their hardware and comes with the packages they want. Many on the libranet forums have suggested a live cd for that very reason. Alot of times when hardware doesnt work within a distro people move on out of laziness and frustration. I know this first hand, my wife was on my case about getting her wpc54g card working and i had to get it going so out of frustration i installed ubuntu on it and found a "fix" for it on their forums the same trick would have worked in libranet i now know but she still has ubuntu on her laptop because as long as it "works" shes fine with it. The reason alot of us are leary about of ubuntu is that its not debian compatable and the further away from debian they get the worse it will get
there is no real reson NOT to be 100% debain compatable unless you WANT to take away from the debian project but not give back and that is NOT good for the linux COMMUNITY imho.

Reply Score: 1