Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 26th Oct 2005 18:49 UTC
Gnome The first in a new series of development builds of GNOME has been released. You can compile GNOME 2.13.1 by using these jhbuild modulesets. Planned features can be found here.
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v Howto install GNOME correctly
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 19:59 UTC
Gnome always great simple and usable.
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 20:26 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Gnome has always got my love and the love of the people who knows what a DE is and what it should be. Kudos to the developers for always making every release a great improvement and not only some bugfixes and a GUI redesign. We all know the disadvantages of gnome that so much trolls keep posting here but, we don't care because the good things of Gnome outweighs the bad things that are being fixed very fast.

Reply Score: 4

Bnonn Member since:
2005-09-02

What GUI redesigns? Do you use Gnome? I realize you're probably trolling, but really, that's just silly. They have been tweaking the Nautilus GUI for a while because of user feedback. I don't know of any other significant GUI changes. A new theme, maybe?

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Well, if you use CVS, how can you think that everything will work perfectly?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> Well, if you use CVS, how can you think that everything
> will work perfectly?

Those screenshots show Fedora Core 4 and Debian. And not my CVS System, while I don't have that issue, I do have that issues shown on the FC4 screenshot when printing out exactly one page.

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Kudos to the developers...

Goodness me. Using a word beginning with a K, and a capital one at that, in the comments on this article is just asking for trouble!

Reply Score: 4

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Obviously some people can't take a joke.....

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Yes, it was actually a good joke. But people at OSNews have no sense of humour.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Gnome has always got my love and the love of the people who knows what a DE is and what it should be. Kudos to the developers for always making every release a great improvement and not only some bugfixes and a GUI redesign. We all know the disadvantages of gnome that so much trolls keep posting here but, we don't care because the good things of Gnome outweighs the bad things that are being fixed very fast.
Gnome maybe a decent DE but it's apps suck big time.
In particular Nautilus is still as useless as ever.
After trying the latest Ubuntu (which btw is pretty amazing piece of work) I was disappointed that I still couldn't have a "delete" button on Nautilus toold bar.
Or some other buttons like "New folder" which I'd find very usefull and which would increase my productivity when managing my files.
That's why I find Nautilus and most other apps that come with Gnome quite useless and anti-productive.
If I have to reach for the keyboard and hit delete key or right click and hunt for the delete item on the pop-up menu (which is not there by default btw) then I don't call that a usable and productive human interface design.
There is a point when too much functionality may be overwhelming but Gnome has gone too way too far in feature cutting. So far in fact that it's become counterproductive.
Taking Nautilus for example, I can't think of a single file manager (other than Mac's Finder) that has less functionality than Nautilus and that includes Windows Explorer which lets you add buttons to the toolbar.
I'm far more productive with a tiny Gtk1 file manager called Emelfm (or it's newer version Emelfm2) than with Nautilus.
And getting asked for a network password three times when browsing my Samba network is just plain wrong.
Why was that not fixed long time ago?
It's simply sad to see what's happening to Gnome.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Do you know what a right click is?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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To delete, you can simply drag files to the trash can on the panel.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Or on the desktop if you have it there.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Or on the desktop if you have it there.
No, neither works for me and most people because I don't like the stupid trash can on my desktop and if I make the panel small it's hard and slow to drag and drop files to it.
Plus I don't use trash can ever, I delete files for good.
Therefore it would be much easier to have a delete button on the toolbar in Nautilus so I just select the files and hit the button to delete them.
Gee, it's such a basic feature even Windows Explorer has it if you disable simple folder view.
But no such option in Nautilus.
I guess Gnome considers EVERYBODY too stupid and unqualified to delete their own files!
And this is why I have no respect and will never use Gnome (until they fix it).
Plus Gnome is such a hypocritical DE.
On one hand they cut basic but important features and on the other they make Evolution, which is an overkill for a basic email app, a dependency.
And yeah! Gnome has REGISTRY, like Windows, yeah REGISTRY. And don't tell me it's not registry because it is. If it gets corrupted you can kill you Gnome configuration bye bye. Gnome doesn't start any more.
What a joke of a DE.
It happened to me and I was pissed!

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Oh look it is angry. See how it jumps up and down. I will take it home with me, it is in dire need for food.

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Plus I don't use trash can ever, I delete files for good.
Therefore it would be much easier to have a delete button on the toolbar in Nautilus so I just select the files and hit the button to delete them.


If you delete files in Nautilus they still end up in the trash can ;)

You can't have deleted many files with Nautilus if you hadn't realized that yet ;)

So your whole rant is nothing but that... a rant...

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:

Stability;
Features;
Speed;
Performance;
Useability;
Number of known bugs per l. o. c.
Speed in addressing known bugs;
Look and feel.

Yes, any such review would be necessarily subjective in most of these areas but at least from a neutral standpoint (preferably a panel, so that a few different views would be incorporated) we would start to gain a clearer picture, instead of this muddying of the waters. Honest critiques of both systems, including genuine strengths and weaknesses, would help focus developers.

Reply Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:"

Yes, but I dont want to see an evaluation. I dont CARE.
I want people to shut up about how much better KDE is in Gnome threads and vice versa.
Obvioiusly both are good environments and if either one works for someone that's just awesome but for the love of God, shut the hell up about how much the other suck. We dont care. Noone does.

Reply Score: 4

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Are there other people reading this who, like myself, are sick of this bickering between the camps and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on:

The bickering will exist until the end of time, and when you cut through the crap and BS it's actually indicative of Linux's greatest strength: choice.

KDE and Gnome have design philosophies that are almost at extremes. KDE is all about integration and functionality whereas Gnome is about simplicity and purpose. They're both focused on user experience but with different interpretations. And users of course, being what they are, have very different interpretations of their own about what they want in a DE.

The Gnome zealots will forever consider KDE bloated because of things like Konqueror's uber-functionality or the less-than-intuitive but fairly granular control panel. The KDE zealots will forever consider Gnome simplistic, lacking control, having to work with multiple applications to get things done etc. For the rest of us, the non-zealots, it comes down to what works best for you and not giving a crap about what other people think.

The politicos will crow about KDE's dual-licensing, claiming that nobody will want to pay for a development license to write closed software. The other side will retort that the big players would view development licenses a small price in the big picture for a more advanced development framework, and then drop in a comment questioning how the big players feel about LGPL permitting reverse-egineering of their work etc. etc. That all gets extremely tiring. Once again, the non-zealots will make a smart decision about what works best for what they need to accomplish.

Then there's the crap about stability, crashes, etc. Gnome sucks 'cause it's unstable on my system! Konqueror crashes on me so KDE sucks! These are akin to the comments people make along the lines of this distro sucks/is crap/bites/will never succeed because I couldn't make it work on my hardware, so there. Ignore these posts. If the problems were widespread beyond someone's ignorance or inability to install software on their particular setup, you'd be hearing more about it from reputable sources.

And finally, of course, there's all the crap about eye candy and Windows look and colors and this sucks and that is crap. At the end of the day, both DE's are highly customizable and you can frankly make one wind up looking like the other. Just because the distro packages a desktop a certain way doesn't make it somehow illegal or immoral to change it to your personal liking.

And this also completely overlooks the fact that the majority of users intermix GTK apps and QT apps regardless of their DE anyways. Which really makes me wonder why the hell people waste time in these flames. I mean, if you were restricted in the apps you could run by choosing a particular desktop, fine, but really. I know the purists will say they don't want unnecessary libraries polluting their system, but most of the rest of us don't care and just want to use our systems whichever way works best.

So no, you'll never see an end to the bickering. Frankly I think having Gnome and KDE (as well as the others) is brilliant because it means people have to make less compromises when working with linux, just pick what works and go with it. People who say choice makes things to complex and confusing are missing the point. My personal choice is KDE, and I feel no need to justify that to anyone. But as much as I respect someone else's right to run Gnome and will not question their choice or make fun of them for it, I'd resent it if Gnome was the only desktop I could run on Linux. In fact, as much as KDE is my choice, I'd probably resent it if it was my only choice. That's the kind of thinking that drove me away from Microsoft into Linux in the first place.

At the end of the day, I think, that's all that really matters. Choice and preference. The rest is just noise. Amusing sometimes, but just noise. Best to just try them for yourself and see what you like best.

Reply Score: 5

cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> The politicos will crow about KDE's dual-licensing,
> claiming that nobody will want to pay for a
> development license to write closed software.


Just a little correction: KDE does not have a dual license. Kdelibs are LGPL (some parts even more liberal), and the apps shipped with KDE are mostly GPLed.

You obviously don't need to buy a license to kdelibs to produce closed-source software (in fact, you *cannot* buy a non-LGPL one). You'd need to buy a license to Qt, though, as kdelibs depends on it. That's probably what you were thinking of...

And that subject has already been trolled to death at osnews.com.


> and then drop in a comment questioning how the big
> players feel about LGPL permitting
> reverse-egineering of their work


This would obviously not happen as kdelibs is LGPL itself. But I see what you wanted to say...


Apart from these nitpicks: Great post!

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Gnome always great simple and usable.
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 20:35 UTC
Not corporate ready!
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 20:35 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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RE: Not corporate ready!
by carbon-12 on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:06 UTC in reply to "Not corporate ready!"
carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

"I stopped believing that GNOME will ever become corporate ready."

I guess Ubuntu is "corporate ready" since it renders that PDF fine. ;)

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6571/renderpdf0uq.jpg

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Not corporate ready!
by GhePeU on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Not corporate ready!"
GhePeU Member since:
2005-07-06

"I stopped believing that GNOME will ever become corporate ready."

I guess Ubuntu is "corporate ready" since it renders that PDF fine. ;)


I guess Gentoo is "corporate ready" as well...

http://img434.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evince3vw.png

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Not corporate ready!
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not corporate ready!"
Anonymous Member since:
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> I guess Gentoo is "corporate ready" as well...

It's not, or why does it have italian (?) language in the About box but in the Toolbar and other areas it still shows english ? Poor corporate italian company who may have employees who are not aware of the english language.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Not corporate ready!
by GhePeU on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Not corporate ready!"
GhePeU Member since:
2005-07-06

evince 0.4.0 is not fully translated in italian, because the release occurred on august 26 and translators didn't manage to add the italian support in time.

CVS is fully localized, however, and so will be the next release. Could have fixed this (it requires 30 seconds) but I didn't care and Gentoo doesn't fix this small glitches.

Well, guess what, I've just fixed it, thank you for the boost.

http://img472.imageshack.us/my.php?image=evinceit9pt.png

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Not corporate ready!
by molnarcs on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Not corporate ready!"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Isn't evidence a work-in-progress app from the enlightenment project?

What about xpdf - I think that should be standard for gnomers (me, I'm happy with kpdf's rendering ability)

Reply Score: 0

v RE[3]: Not corporate ready!
by molnarcs on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:52 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not corporate ready!"
RE[3]: Not corporate ready!
by GhePeU on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Not corporate ready!"
GhePeU Member since:
2005-07-06

Isn't evidence a work-in-progress app from the enlightenment project?

Evince, not Evidence, is a libpoppler-based pdf/ps/other formats viewer: http://www.gnome.org/projects/evince/

BTW, kpdf is supposed to switch to libpoppler as well...

Reply Score: 1

Let's be honest
by mkools on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:25 UTC
mkools
Member since:
2005-10-11

I've been a gnome user for a couple of years now and it's nice to work with, I can do my work in it I can stream internetradio, surf the web etc etc.

But let's be honest, I don't know what the dev's of gnome are doing but I think they are totally not focussing on important shortcomings of gnome.

Take Nautlius for example, it's really a pain to find a file, even Windows 3.1's filemanager was far better, why don't they focus on that?

So without trolling, i'm starting to get a little dissapointed about gnome and with it's current progress it's never going to be one of the leading Linux window managers.

Look at alternatives like Enlightment, KDE, Looking Glass, progress is begin made there very fast.
It looks like GNOME is stuck at some point and all they do is bugfixing.

I hope this will change because I'm used to GNOME and it would be great if they could really improve user experience so that I can keep using it in the future.

Reply Score: 3

Hype
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Comparing Nautilus with Konqueror is pure nonsense, comparing GNOME with KDE is even bigger nonsense. If we get a team of developers on a Table and discuss all the crap we find between KDE and GNOME then I can tell from own experience that the answer is clearly that GNOME will fail horrible here.
IMHO gnome will konquer the world the next time (only in their dreams).

Reply Score: 0

v insecure KDE peeople
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 21:34 UTC
KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:03 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Hey Ali, take a look at these:

Evince on Ubuntu 5.10:
http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/6571/renderpdf0uq.jpg

KPDF on Ubuntu 5.10
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/3909/kpdffailedrender9fm.jpg

So I guess KDE is the one that is not "corporate ready". LMAO

Reply Score: 2

RE: KPDF vs Evince
by carbon-12 on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:06 UTC in reply to "KPDF vs Evince "
carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

Sorry that was me, I forgot to login after switching browsers.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince
by molnarcs on Thu 27th Oct 2005 09:30 UTC in reply to "RE: KPDF vs Evince "
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

So, did you log in with your other account and modded your own post up?

Reply Score: 1

v RE: KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:17 UTC in reply to "KPDF vs Evince "
v RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince
by Truthseeker on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:27 UTC in reply to "RE: KPDF vs Evince "
RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince
by Truthseeker on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince "
Truthseeker Member since:
2005-07-18

Sorry its me 'carbon-12' again. I just have different accounts for my Laptop(work) and Desktop computer. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince "
Anonymous Member since:
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> This just reinforces that you are a brainless troll.

This only reinforces

a) My prove that people keep using fake accounts to moderate valid comments down.

b) That you kept ignoring the fact that the evince links provided by me are hosted on a *.gnome.org server and show Evince with the same problems on Fedora Core 4 and Debian (which obviously use stable tarball releases).

http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-fc4-evince-a...
http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/images/screenshot-evince-debian-evinc...
http://www.jawebada.de/dl/evince-ss.png

c) That the guy who wrote the blog seem to be one of the core Evince developers.

http://www.gnome.org/~clarkbw/blog/these_are_awesome

d) That there are at least half a dozen bugs reported for Evince just by me with valid confirmed bugs.

So far, since I only share my personal objective opinion on GNOME I do believe that I am right with what I say.

Assuming this, even if I use GNOME from CVS, then you can be sure that these problems do exists for months now. Also shown in that movie. And from the date of the movie till now different versions of GNOME has been released 2.12.0 - 2.13.1 which means, pretty much stable as well as testing tarballs got released but none of these bugs got fixed. Or in case they got fixed dozens of new ones have shown up meanwhile.

Evince is new - and ? It has been put into offical GNOME 2.12 release and shows the same symthoms. It's valid to argue if something in a stable release (and beyond that) is not working correctly that this is not good for corporate needs. Half working Software is still broken software. The IT Industry in the USA do have a high standard for software and even non existing documentation, half translated software or software not working as written in the docs, or as specified is a guarantee that the company who wrote the software won't see a buck until the software is fixed (which can easily ruin a company). Of course this is not valid for open source stuff (maybe I'm wrong but who knows) but it's clear that the software is buggy as hell. Basic stuff not working properly means that it's not corporate ready.

I have no issues if GNOME continues the way it is, but please understand that the marketing that GNOME does won't help anyone. Their marketing sells GNOME as corporate ready - but it sadly isn't and as long as this behavior continues no serious business or company will care.

Even SUN (as read in a different article) seems to be stepping away from GNOME (as JDS) to use Looking Glass for future JDS releases.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince "
Anonymous Member since:
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Even SUN (as read in a different article) seems to be stepping away from GNOME (as JDS) to use Looking Glass for future JDS releases.

Uh, no, they're just shipping it because it's cool. JDS is still 100% GNOME based, on Solaris and Linux. What they actually announced is that a bunch of the Sun apps from JDS (including StarOffice, their modifications to Mozilla and the Java VM) will be supported on other operating systems.

You're a loon, Ali.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: KPDF vs Evince
by segedunum on Thu 27th Oct 2005 08:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: KPDF vs Evince "
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Uh, no, they're just shipping it because it's cool.

They're not wasting their time on Looking Glass for nothing. Honestly, if and when they get Looking Glass into a stable form, can you really see them continuing to use Gnome? They can just run Gnome and other apps like Star Office and Firefox in Looking Glass anyway.

It does seem that Sun have never really went 100% with Gnome, although it's sometimes difficult to gauge anything from Sun. You look at their JDS and it's nothing like vanilla Gnome at all. It's basically a clone of Windows, and when you look at Gnome UI differences like the button ordering and HIG differences you have to ask yourself why.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[4]: KPDF vs Evince
by Truthseeker on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince "
RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince "
Anonymous Member since:
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the SUSE 10 version of KPDF (0.4.3) renders
http://www.linux-magazine.com/issue/61/Evince_PDF_Viewer.pdf
just fine.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: KPDF vs Evince
by Wrawrat on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince "
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

I tried the antique KPDF 0.3.3 and I am only getting an small issue with the picture. The text is alright. There are so many variables that can screw up the Evince or KPDF rendering... but I guess it doesn't matter since fanboys are not interested in finding these issues. They have bullshots to "back up" their stance.

Reply Score: 3

RE: KPDF vs Evince
by molnarcs on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:12 UTC in reply to "KPDF vs Evince "
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Oh, lets begin playing the "who can produce worse pdf output screenshot" game now ... I don't understand how can your post taken seriously... Just checked it myself (had to google for the document) and it displays perfectly here: ftp://hatvani.unideb.hu/pub/personal/screenshots/evince.png

So you can LMAO as much as you want, but your screenshot only proves that your install/config/whatever is seriously screwed up.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince
by Eugenia on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:16 UTC in reply to "RE: KPDF vs Evince "
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

Evince DOES have problems. For example, most of the new pdf manuals for Canon cameras do not render on Evince correctly. Check here: http://www.osnews.com/img/11800/gnome3.jpg

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince
by molnarcs on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince "
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Are these manuals online?

Just curious how they render in kpdf - wont' post the results, I promise ;) ) I never used evince btw, so I don't know anything about it - my point was about using random screenshots to prove a point ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 07:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KPDF vs Evince "
Anonymous Member since:
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You are totally stupid!

libpoppler do not render this pdf correctly.

But on evince and kpdf build with xpdf code, it will work perfectly!

Reply Score: 0

Gnome must die
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Gnome probably only still exists at all now due to corporate sponsorship as it, and that is a mistake. Rather than pouring large amounts of money into a sinkhole, attempting to prop up something which should be allowed to die, Red Hat and whoever else are currently bankrolling Gnome should instead start syphoning those funds into KDE. It's a lot more advanced in virtually every respect, and the comparitive popularity of the two environments speaks volumes if nothing else. Gnome is spartan, primitive, fragmented, and generally not worth bothering with.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: Gnome must die
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 22:24 UTC in reply to "Gnome must die"
v Gnome vs. KDE
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:18 UTC
v more KDE nonesense
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:20 UTC
RE: more KDE nonesense
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:31 UTC in reply to "more KDE nonesense"
Anonymous Member since:
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> konqueror and most of the apps from crashing all the time.

I rarely see Konqueror crashing, but then I use a reliable compiler (GCC 4.0.2) without "leet" CFLAGS like most people I know do. It is no secret that older versions of GCC badly supported C++ code generation but in the recent past the GCC development team did a great work to improve in this area. The new GCC compiler generates much better code but there are still cases where it still generates buggy code and one example was the "leet" CFLAGS where people go so insanily bad with them that they cause more damage at the end than anything good. I usually compile KDE using -O0 (seriously) but -O2 is very much enough. No need for extra leet flags such as -march=athlon-xp -ffunroll-loops and other stuff that might be overkill for the compiler to handle.

Reply Score: 0

v slow and buggy konqueror
by Anonymous on Wed 26th Oct 2005 23:39 UTC
RE: slow and buggy konqueror
by re_re on Thu 27th Oct 2005 01:01 UTC in reply to "slow and buggy konqueror"
re_re Member since:
2005-07-06

what is this trolling crap

I use konqueror all the time and it is not only quite stable but is smokin fast

now, i have to say, nautilus is also stable and very fast, but to say konqueror is slow and unstable is just ignorant, konqueror is every bit as stable as nautilus and just as fast (if not just a little bit faster).

I use both Gnome and KDE and I like both. They both have their faults and strong points, but as far as speed and stability...... they are not much different (maybe a slight variation between apps)

anyway, my main point....... stop bitching about kde (gnome people), and stop bitching about gnome (kde people)...... how about we just learn from the competition and build a better product (kde and gnome)

Reply Score: 5

v correction
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 01:58 UTC
RE: correction
by re_re on Thu 27th Oct 2005 02:19 UTC in reply to "correction"
re_re Member since:
2005-07-06

well, if you mean by having the features that i need to efficiently do my job, yes, it is bloated, but....... even with this "bloat" it is still as fast or maybe even slightly faster then nautilus, i suggest you try a recent version of konqueror on a decent linux distro

don't get me wrong, i use Gnome (nautilus) all the time and it is fast as well......... but certainly not faster or more stable, they are on par with eachother

why compare something that you clearly have no relevant or recent knowlege of?

most people that have used both agree......... kde fanboys only use kde and think it is the best

Gnome fanboys only use Gnome and think it is the best

people who use both know the truth........ both are good for certain things...... and bad for other things but on par with eachother when it comes to speed and stability.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: correction
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 02:52 UTC in reply to "RE: correction"
Anonymous Member since:
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"why compare something that you clearly have no relevant or recent knowlege of?"
you mean using konqueror 3.4.0-6 about 12 hours ago!? how recent do you want?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: correction
by wakeupneo on Thu 27th Oct 2005 07:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: correction"
wakeupneo Member since:
2005-07-06

..then your install is borked.

Reply Score: 1

How about a real menu editor too
by chetroia on Thu 27th Oct 2005 02:02 UTC
chetroia
Member since:
2005-10-27

There is alot of work that needs to be done with Gnome.The recent upgrade comes with a half written nenu editor. I use smeg its better. Why not incorporate this stuff into the DE and get rid of unnecessary services that start and slow down the pc. I dont need pcmcia support services started if I am using a desktop..

Reply Score: 1

gnome 2.12
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 02:36 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Konqueror has gotten as fast or not faster then nautils with 3.4 kde. With its split view options and other options it is way better then nautilus. But...I will say being a long time user of KDE, I am using gnome 2.12 in ubuntu and cannot stand looking at KDE anymore, with clearlooks, Blended theme (from gnome-look.org), and nuoveXT icons from (gnome-look.org) and the default ubuntu wallpaper, this is the best looking o.s. i have used, especially the integration of the look among apps. Quite impressive, KDE has better apps, quicker, and better file management at the moment, but with Gnome's useability, looks, and ubuntu distro..I havent been this happy with a distro in a long time.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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I've been using GNOME for 2 years now. Every release has more features. They also DO fix bugs. However, what concerns me much is that they introduce more and more new bugs. Especially the code for new features is of a bit low quality. For example:

1. Evince and Gpdf in Gnome 2.12.x don't show pdflatex-generated documents at all. They just show blank pages. In previous releases, Gpdf (and evince <= 0.3) worked fine. Evince 0.3 was the best pdf viewer I've ever seen, but 0.4 is MUCH worse.

2. Nautilus crashes when creating thumbnails. This happened in 2.10.0, 2.10.1, 2.10.2, 2.12.0 and 2.12.1 (perhaps in older ones too). I can't open my "Desktop/Downloads" folder right now unless I turn of thumbnails.

3. Epiphany constantly crashes when viewing some pages (on www.wp.pl). Mozilla, the libs of which ephy uses, works fine.

However, they also fix bugs. I remember panel applets were crashing badly before 2.8 release. They work fine now.

Reply Score: 0

nimble Member since:
2005-07-06

Did you report those on http://bugzilla.gnome.org ?

Reply Score: 1

For Fu$ks Sake
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 06:53 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

This is a message to everyone. The next time you are considering writing a reply containing any of the following sentances please make the suggest improvements I have listed below;

1)"now, i have to say, nautilus is also stable and very fast, but to say konqueror is slow and unstable is just ignorant, konqueror is every bit as stable as nautilus and just as fast (if not just a little bit faster)"

YOU DO NOT NEED TO ADD THE "(if not just a little bit faster)" - It just gives people who disagree with your view the ability to disregard your post as trolling.

2)There is alot of work that needs to be done with Gnome.

Well thanks alot, thats about as useful as saying the sky outside is blue. There is alot of work that needs to be done on ANY software. You deserve a phd for your observation, where can I shake your hand and give you a medal

3)"and would like to see an honest evaluation of GNOME and KDE based on"

Yes an honest evaluation of the two distributions will be beneficial to the open source community. NOT. It will only serve to stoke the flames on the issue.

Thankyou for your time

Reply Score: 3

There is no competition
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 07:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I would be thankful if people stopped comparing Nautilus with Konqueror. These applications are two entirely different things build ontop of totally different technology.

While Nautilus is just a Filemanager (which besides this doesn't perform well or reliable enough) Konqueror on the other hand is just a "Window" around the KParts/KIOSlaves system providing an interface to these plugins.

See it like a plugin system that you can expand unlimited. You write a ChickenGame Plugin and you can play chicken game inside Konqueror. You write an SQL plugin and you can query SQL databases from inside Konqueror. The most prefered and default features for Konqueror therefore is Webbrowsing as well as Filemanaging but it can be extended to whatever required.

This is also no disadvantage as some people might say since the KParts/KIOSlaves system is the heart of KDE, you write a plugin and every other application can share it. You write one HTML plugin and you can use it in any app you need it.

Also please stop talking about KDE and GNOME being in competition. There is no real competition between both of them not even close to that. There would be a competition between XFCE and GNOME if you wish but definately not between KDE and GNOME otherwise you won't see GNOME people working for Red Hat (to not name someone now) who recently addmited that KDE is far ahead of GNOME in many areas.

A competition requires that both desktops offer similar features and tasks but GNOME is by far too broken and don't perfom basic stuff well and reliable enough.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[3]: KPDF vs Evince
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 07:29 UTC
Funny
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 09:23 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Evince has bugs as any other free PDF reader, but compared to the prior gpdf is a blessing.

Ali again shows his video about a CVS version of gnome that had, surprisingly, bugs. And we discover in awe that he reads planet.gnome.org to get more data to troll on OSnews.

Wow, if that's not dedication I don't know what it is. Oh, wait, I know: obsession. ;)

Reply Score: 0

xcomposite api
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 10:11 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Does anyone know if they are going to include an api to specify the xcomposite transparency for a toplevel GdkWindow?

Reply Score: 0

v gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 10:58 UTC
RE: gnome still sucks
by segedunum on Thu 27th Oct 2005 11:38 UTC in reply to "gnome still sucks"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Gnome was founded as a political reaction to KDE's licensing about five years back: all the pragmatists who just wanted to make a good desktop stayed with KDE as the most advanced project

Well I for one am really glad that the people who ended up going off with Gnome never got involved with KDE. For that reason I'm glad that Gnome exists. Looking back on some of those mailing list conversations just makes you say "Oh dear".

When Matthias Ettrich came up with KDE you could see clearly in the comments of some of these people around the FSF, and now Gnome, that they thought they had missed a trick. KDE had started something, a usable Unix desktop, that they hadn't thought of first, so they had to have it. If KDE had totally acceptable licensing then they would have tried to force themselves on the project to gain some sort of control, or, as happened, they would find things wrong with it so they could start their own.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 11:45 UTC in reply to "RE: gnome still sucks"
RE[3]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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It is not a myth. you can still read the archives from the very early KDE times on http://lists.kde.org

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: gnome still sucks
by segedunum on Thu 27th Oct 2005 15:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: gnome still sucks"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not a myth. There are many mailing list entries to browse, and he was on IRC a few times. In fact, there were a few people around KDE, including Richard Stallman, when it first started up.

It's not worth dwelling on. I'm just glad that some of these people went off and did something else. We ended up with GTK, which is a different option for people and that you can use with different desktops, and a number of other things. I think we would have ended up with two desktops anyway just due to different personalities. If KDE had become a crowded project then I think it would have failed, and with it, any hope of desktop Linux at all.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: gnome still sucks
by segedunum on Thu 27th Oct 2005 15:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: gnome still sucks"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

you won't see GNOME people working for Red Hat (to not name someone now) who recently addmited that KDE is far ahead of GNOME in many areas.

Even Owen Taylor (one of the Red Hat lead developers) seem to have realized that KDE is far ahead of GNOME

Really? I didn't know that. Where?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 16:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Really? I didn't know that. Where?

It was written in an article in the first quarter of this year. I was now searching for it for nearly 20 mins but couldn't find it. If I recall correctly then it was related to the 'desktoplinux' results where KDE has shown 2-3 times more users than on GNOME.

In case you find it before me, then please post a link. I keep on seeking.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[5]: gnome still sucks
by Manuma on Thu 27th Oct 2005 17:00 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: gnome still sucks"
RE[6]: gnome still sucks
by segedunum on Thu 27th Oct 2005 18:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: gnome still sucks"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

The only reason KDE is ahed is because the propietary ToolKit Qt

It's not a proprietary toolkit.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: gnome still sucks
by Manuma on Thu 27th Oct 2005 18:32 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: gnome still sucks"
Manuma Member since:
2005-07-28

Call it whatever you want, is still ruled by TrollTech.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous
Member since:
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Because I got sick an tired by the hijacking of every single Gnome news item on the regular sites like osnews. And the sadest part is if I look at the reactions, only a view persons take advantage of every oppertunity to bash Gnome. It seems like a personal vendetta, very sad!

Reply Score: 1

Sick of it
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 12:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I get sick and tired of this gnome bashing but here is why I use gnome.

1. Simple minimal look with easy theme install.

2. No other DE looks like gnome and it has a different experience.

3. I love spatial nautilus, no other filemanager is like it.

4. The features that get implemented are always minimal but functional.

5. The menu is very well layed out and both my mum and uncle agree, I'll never understand why people whine about a menu editor (good menu designs dont need one)

6. It's good to see even KDE using idea's from gnome, just look as KDE 3.5beta with the panel(just like gnome).

7. The volume manager is great for manageing your devices rather than a complex control panel.

8. Gnome control center is simple but just enough configuration not to confuse you.

9. The "Places" menu is a simple way of seeing where things are without the need for desktop shortcuts.

10. Default layout of gnome is natural with the panel andf menu at the top, since we all read top to bottom, left to right.

Reply Score: 2

v RE: Sick of it
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 12:50 UTC in reply to "Sick of it"
could it be poppler?
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 12:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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You all amaze me, you really do. We get screenshots of Evince working, some of KPDF working, some of Evince broken, some of KPDF broken in the same way. Could it be the common base, libpoppler, that's at fault? Gee you think?

Though it's a bit funny when one works and another doesn't on the same box as claimed by someone above..

Meh. Still using kghostview here hehe

Reply Score: 0

Try xfce4
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 12:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Great, but I won't be using the latest Gnome because I'm still on 2.10 in Debian. I prefer Gnome to KDE because of it's (relative) simplicity, but I can't help feeling that the KDE team appear a bit better organized, especially in terms of fixing bugs and optimizing apps.

Imho, it's not cool to release unfinished apps like Evince because they just drag down everything else. Maybe the Gnome team need to concentrate less on "cool stuff" and more on the boring old business of a really really well-polished, complete and so far as possible bug-free DE. Imho, it's this, not features, that will attract loyal users.

That said, my principal DE is xfce4.2. It's fast, neat, clean, stable and uses noticeably fewer system resources than the big two. It does everything I want and does it well. Respect to the dev team!

Reply Score: 0

The hidden strength of Gnome
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 13:01 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The Gnome bashers here want you to believe that Gnome is a mess, but some of the nicest desktop independent infrastructure features that are popping up all over the place are a direct spin-off from gnome-first technology, like dbus-hal, gstreamer, libpoppler.

The Gnome community tries to make the infrastructure that makes great desktops desktop independant and KDE is more like there is only one way and that is the KDE way.

Same with language bindings look at the many applications in Gnome files using python, mono, perl. In KDE C++ is the king.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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Need to have a moratorium. You need to just post the links to all stories on

gnome
kde
Apple
Microsoft

and maybe one or two others

with no comments allowed. For at least a month, till all these people go away. Its like visiting a kindergarten full of deranged illiterates, it inspires horror and pity, but its a complete waste of time if information is your purpose.

After a month, you could try making postings only possible from registered subscribers with real email addresses. Probably by then they will all have moved on somewhere else. Got to do something though. You still do have some readers who post informative, reasonable and good humoured comments, but you won't have them much longer if you allow them to be drowned out by this stuff. And if you don't do something soon, it will spread to all the topics. At that point, the site will die.

Reply Score: 4

Anonymous Member since:
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Dream on.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Exactly, the frustration of see GNOME success big time and see KDE fail thanks to the bad desition of use Qt makes them angry and of course bash GNOME, I can only feel sorry for them and ignored them, nothing in the world will distractme of the best free DE, and that DE ladies and gentlemen is called GNOME.

ROTFL turn in your bed
G.N.O.M.E
Gnome Users Offer Medieval Environment

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

on still the bottom line that KDE people find impossible to accept is that all the big companies are ignoring KDE and going with gnome.

I love how this keeps cropping up. Some people have filled you so full of hype that they've convinced you that Gnome is being used by these big companies, but what big companies? Tell me, where does this crap keep coming from?

Red Hat uses it as the graphical interface for its servers, Sun uses a bit of it for their non-selling JDS and Novell has no clue what they're doing with it because they use KDE in all their selling products. As for big non-IT companies - who's using Gnome? No big companies are using KDE either, but you won't find any KDE people trying to vainly convince everyboody else otherwise.

Reply Score: 2

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You can't probe the contrary

Sounds painful.

if they say it is deployed in many bussines I believe them

Believe who? After many years of Gnome supposedly being this incredible corporate desktop, no major installations in companies of any kind have ever materialised. Feel free to keep believing.

if you really like KDE as much you people claim then stop reading GNOME news

Well, stuff like this and poking people is fun! Hell, that's the only reason I do it when whiling away some internet time!

And keep in mind people like you started this whole Gnome corporate desktop thing, Gnome is the choice for business, Gnome has a better license for businesses, bal, blah, blah, etc. etc. No one else did - you brought this on yourselves.

you all feel the frustration of seeing GNOME succes and KDE fail.

Depends how you measure success I suppose. I certainly don't see it.

Reply Score: 1

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

In other words, you have no life.

Nice try, but yes I do actually. All I'm doing is whiling away some internet time while twits like you try and keep on claiming that Gnome is a corporate desktop, licensing, etc. etc.

People like you haven't had any sort of life at all, or had any sort of breakthrough with Gnome as a business desktop since, well, ever.

Reply Score: 1

Manuma Member since:
2005-07-28

Nice try, but yes I do actually

You actions probe the contrary.

Reply Score: 1

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You actions probe the contrary.

Oooohh, painful! Learn to speak English properly before coming here.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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you all feel the frustration of seeing GNOME succes and KDE fail

you mean KDE success
http://dot.kde.org/1130188084/
http://dot.kde.org/1129483687/

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> That's good, why don't you put those links in a KDE
> related news? oh I forgot, KDE is not good enought for
> you and you have to come to GNOME related news to feel
> completly.

Well what else can we do, if OSN does put 10 GNOME related articles online compared to 5 others where 1 of them might be a small KDE one every now and then. The editors here put only GNOME stuff online. Some days they even post 3-5 articles concerning GNOME and as counter they post 1 KDE article maybe once in a month.

Reply Score: 0

Manuma Member since:
2005-07-28

Well what else can we do, if OSN does put 10 GNOME related articles online compared to 5 others where 1 of them might be a small KDE one every now and then.

Then why do you keep coming to OSNEWW?

No one is forcing you, go to kde.org or something if you are not happy here.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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> Then why do you keep coming to OSNEWW?

Because I love seeing kids like you drive mad ;) It makes me get a stiff penis...

Reply Score: 0

RE[10]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 18:54 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, you only wan't to twist the reallity, GTK is free and LGPL, not like Qt
While Qt are GPL, just as Free and with the license FSF prefer. You are the one trying to twist reality.

even if you try to denie it with false claims about GTK,
False claims? I only saw the claim of GTK being maintained and developed mainly by Red Hat. It's both the truth and what gives RH de-facto controll over GTK.

Reply Score: 3

RE[10]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 19:11 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

I can take GTK sources hacke it on my own way and even sell it if I wan't, I can even make my own type of license, can you do the same with Qt?

No you can't actually, if you make any changes to GTK and distribute it you have to license it LGPL. All your rights to distribution(selling) are decided by the LGPL. And you can do the exactly same with Qt, as you are given the rights to by the GPL.

Reply Score: 2

RE[11]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 19:18 UTC in reply to "RE[10]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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"No you can't actually, if you make any changes to GTK and distribute it you have to license it LGPL. All your rights to distribution(selling) are decided by the LGPL. And you can do the exactly same with Qt, as you are given the rights to by the GPL."
this still leaves the burning question: why are all the companies who want to put their money where their mouth is in promoting, or developing on, a DE, still avoiding kde in preference to gnome?

Reply Score: 0

RE[11]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 19:58 UTC in reply to "RE[10]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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Do you mean? I can't GPL a GTK application? please some one tell to all the developers of GTK-GPL application the need to change the GPL to LGPL inmediatly.

GTK is LPGL and free, is simple, you only have to acept it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[12]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 19:35 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

this still leaves the burning question: why are all the companies who want to put their money where their mouth is in promoting, or developing on, a DE, still avoiding kde in preference to gnome?

Well "all" the companies you are talking about are Red Hat, Sun, and a lesser degree Nokia and Novell, and they have already answered. It's about controll, and they all pay to get GTK where they want. So it's not even a hot question.

From a economic standpoint it would have been wiser for Red Hat to used the money they spend on GTK to buy Qt licenses to every developer now making proprietary applications on Gnome. Would have saved them tons of money.

Reply Score: 2

RE[13]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 19:47 UTC in reply to "RE[12]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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"It's about controll, and they all pay to get GTK where they want. So it's not even a hot question."
with companies that size, buying trolltech would be like a millionaire giving someone a few quid pocket money. trolltech is not exactly wallmart. its a miniscule company. once they've got it, they could do whatever they wanted with the licence and change it to suit their own ends. so it still leaves the question: why are all the companies choosing gtk/gnome above qt/kde?



"Would have saved them tons of money."
how do you work that one out?

Reply Score: 0

RE[14]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:02 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

"Would have saved them tons of money."
how do you work that one out?


Simple really, don't you se it:-) While they spend lots of money on GTK, they pay people to work on it you know. There are not even rumours of anyone, anywhere making proprietary applications for Gnome.

Reply Score: 1

RE[15]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:13 UTC in reply to "RE[14]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"While they spend lots of money on GTK, they pay people to work on it you know."
but if it was all to do with control as you're saying, then it would be better for them to buy trolltech for peanuts and adjust the licence to their own ends. if they bought trolltech, they would still have to 'work on it' in the same way that they would have to 'work on' gtk. so if its not about control and its not about the licence, there must be something else thats making them consistantly favour gnome over kde. so it must be all to do with what kde and gnome presently have to offer, yet they are still favouring gnome as being the more suitable to offer the customer.

Reply Score: 0

RE[16]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:15 UTC in reply to "RE[15]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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How can you buy Trolltech when there are different stockholders ? It's not like going into a store for buying a candy or something.

Reply Score: 0

RE[17]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:28 UTC in reply to "RE[16]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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"How can you buy Trolltech when there are different stockholders ? It's not like going into a store for buying a candy or something."
easy. the same way as any other takeover. in fact it would be considerably easier because trolltech is a tiny company. it would be just the same as adobe taking over dreamweaver etc. its no problem when there are profits to be made. yet they choose not to and support gnome instead of kde.

Reply Score: 0

RE[17]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:42 UTC in reply to "RE[16]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Whoever owns a majority of the stock (or a group of owners that make up a majority) can choose to sell the company and everyone else has no choice but to go along with it. This is why owning 51% (a majority) of stock in a company is talked about so much.

Reply Score: 0

RE[15]: gnome still sucks
by ChipX86 on Thu 27th Oct 2005 22:10 UTC in reply to "RE[14]: gnome still sucks"
ChipX86 Member since:
2005-10-27

Not true at all.

I work for VMware, and our proprietary programs are designed to integrate well with the GNOME desktop. We use many GNOME libraries. Workstation and the Player both fit well into the GNOME desktop. Many of the developers who make that happen were hired from GNOME-related projects. So your statement is flawed. Please refrain from making such bold statements without research ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[16]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 22:14 UTC in reply to "RE[15]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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> I work for VMware, and our proprietary programs are
> designed to integrate well with the GNOME desktop.

Does it ? Why does VMware have a 'drag handle' in the menu ? Why doesn't VMware obey the 'Menus & Toolbars' settings ? And why does it come with all the GTK+ libraries bundled in the resulting tarball which makes VMware which initially was some mb's become 85mb and more ?

Reply Score: 0

RE[17]: gnome still sucks
by ChipX86 on Thu 27th Oct 2005 22:49 UTC in reply to "RE[16]: gnome still sucks"
ChipX86 Member since:
2005-10-27

It does. I work on that part, so I'm quite sure I have a better understanding of this than you do.

The drag handle is something a few different programs have. It depends on how you pack your menubar. That doesn't make us not target GNOME. Next!

We do obey the Menus and Toolbars settings. You just need to make sure you didn't override that in VMware.

It comes with the libraries bundled because we have to support everything from Red Hat 7.3 to the latest and greatest. This is just reality. This also doesn't mean we don't target GNOME.

I'm honestly surprised you're trying to debate this fact with me.

Reply Score: 1

RE[18]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:07 UTC in reply to "RE[17]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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> We do obey the Menus and Toolbars settings. You just
> need to make sure you didn't override that in VMware.

But this option is irritating, VMware don't need to override anything if it simply followed the Menus and Toolbars setting since this is the 'global' overrider. Care to tell me where I can turn off the VMware draghandle for th emenu ? It doesn't look very well together with Clearlooks' menu gradients.

Reply Score: 0

RE[19]: gnome still sucks
by ChipX86 on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:33 UTC in reply to "RE[18]: gnome still sucks"
ChipX86 Member since:
2005-10-27

The drag handle can't be turned off.

The option for the toolbars is there because not every user of VMware is going to run a GNOME desktop, or a version of GNOME high enough to support setting this on a global basis. So by default, it uses GNOME settings, unless you force it to something else.

Reply Score: 1

RE[20]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:42 UTC in reply to "RE[19]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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> The drag handle can't be turned off.
>
> The option for the toolbars is there because not every > user of VMware is going to run a GNOME desktop, or a
> version of GNOME high enough to support setting this on
> a global basis. So by default, it uses GNOME settings,
> unless you force it to something else.

Excuse me, but I don't understand this. You said that VMare embedds nicely into GNOME but then it doesn't because you can't set the draghandle for the menu inside the menu and toolbars capplet ? And now you said you can't turn it off at all. Please beg pardon but what kind of integration is that ? The GNOME version I am running is high enough to deal with this (whatever that means) and the menu and toolbar capplet is the correct way to interact with this stuff. Integration means supporting it. If it doesn't support it then it's not GNOME conform or not as integrated as you might want to make your customers believe.

The default behavior for GTK+ should be no draghandle for menu, no draghandle for toolbar. The default behavior for GNOME should be "obey the rules set through the menus and toolbar capplet". The capplet where you can set the toolbar draghandle, the behavior of the toolbar (icon only, text only etc...) and within gconf-editor you should be able to enable or disable the menu draghandle.

If VMware would have been using the KDE Desktop then there would only be a common way doing this since you deal with full supported Toolbar objects than can't malfunction. I think you people at VMare need to improve in this area and make it behave correctly to the way how it's done. Now you are a known GNOME guy, as well as philip and as you correctly said, I shouldn't have to tell you how it should work - but sadly I had to.

Reply Score: 0

RE[21]: gnome still sucks
by Hiev on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:49 UTC in reply to "RE[20]: gnome still sucks"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

If VMware would have been using the KDE Desktop then there would only be a common way doing this since you deal with full supported Toolbar objects than can't malfunction.

And they would have to expend thousans fo dollars in licenses, they made the right desition, VMWare is a hit a a great application, you are only frustrated because they choosed GTK/GNOME instead Qt/KDE, they made the right desition Cudos to VMWare developers.

Reply Score: 0

RE[12]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:09 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Do you mean? I can't GPL a GTK application? please some one tell to all the developers of GTK-GPL application the need to change the GPL to LGPL inmediatly.

Please reread what that Anonymous(you?) said and the answer. You can't make changes to LGPL code and/or release it as anything but LGPL.

Nothing was said about applications, don't change the subject..

And Qt is GPL and Free. It's simple, you only have to accept it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[13]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:12 UTC in reply to "RE[12]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
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Anything that force me to GPL my code or to pay a 4000 dls license can be many things but cartainly is not free.

Reply Score: 0

RE[12]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:19 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

"GTK is a large project, and is controlled mainly by Red Hat, and a few developers from Sun and Novell.

That is what you want to believe, because it makes you happy


It's fact, check out the GTK home page sometime and look at the contributors and maintainers.

you wan't to believe Qt is more free than GTK

According to FSF the GPL are more Free than LGPL, or often called Lesser GPL. Not that it matters any. The question is why are you constantly denying verifiable facts, are you just clueless or a troll?

Reply Score: 2

v RE[13]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:22 UTC in reply to "RE[12]: gnome still sucks"
RE[14]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:26 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

[i]Anything that force me to GPL my code or to pay a 4000 dls license can be many things but cartainly is not free.[i]

What does thet have to do with anything, as nothing of that applies to Qt. It don't force you to GPL or cost 4000$. Try getting the facts first.

Reply Score: 1

RE[15]: gnome still sucks
by ckknight on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:59 UTC in reply to "RE[14]: gnome still sucks"
ckknight Member since:
2005-07-06

Anything that force me to GPL my code or to pay a 4000 dls license can be many things but cartainly is not free.

What does thet have to do with anything, as nothing of that applies to Qt. It don't force you to GPL or cost 4000$. Try getting the facts first.


According to Qt's licensing structure, you can either:
- Make your application GPL'd.
or
- Pay a $4000 fee to a license of your choice.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[16]: gnome still sucks
by Manuma on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:05 UTC in reply to "RE[15]: gnome still sucks"
RE[17]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:14 UTC in reply to "RE[16]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> And if I don't want to GPL my code and I don't have
> enought money for a license you are screwed.

Excuse me but your logic has some errors.

If YOU want to GPL YOUR code and if YOU don't have enough money for a license. Why should someone ELSE be screwed ?

Reply Score: 0

v RE[18]: gnome still sucks
by Manuma on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:31 UTC in reply to "RE[17]: gnome still sucks"
RE[19]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:40 UTC in reply to "RE[18]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

That is why Qt/KDe will is destinated to fail always.

yes in your dreams
KDE in 2004 resulted the best desktop for 60% of linux users.

Reply Score: 0

RE[20]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:44 UTC in reply to "RE[19]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

What you actually meant to say is that 60% of the people who bothered answering a poll on a random website said they like KDE more. <put something here about lies, damn lies, and statistics>

Reply Score: 0

RE[21]: gnome still sucks
by Manuma on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:59 UTC in reply to "RE[20]: gnome still sucks"
Manuma Member since:
2005-07-28

That's the sad truth, they don't believe GNOME'S deployment stadisticts but they do believe in some random poll.

Reply Score: 1

RE[16]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:11 UTC in reply to "RE[15]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

- Pay a $4000 fee to a license of your choice.

Uhm you should verify the values before posting crap.

http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/pricing.html

After reading that page and all the cool addons and the great support you get from professionals I consider the price listed there as reliable and quite cheap. It's cheaper to contact Trolltech for help (which you receive within minutes) rather than spending 5 days digging in every mailinglist and forum or the GTK Application Developer mailinglist for getting a help (if anyone gives a flying f--k for your request). The hours lost for getting any suitable help with GTK is the win you would have if you had chosen to get a QT license. Of course this applies for commercial development of closed source applications. But which ever company decides to write close source applications deal with fairly larger money that you may imagine.

Looking at the QT partner page shows a long, very long list of companies that seem to be happily using QT for their commercial products. And hell, these apps are perfectly great.

Reply Score: 2

RE[16]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:34 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

I work for VMware, and our proprietary programs are designed to integrate well with the GNOME desktop. We use many GNOME libraries. Workstation and the Player both fit well into the GNOME desktop. Please refrain from making such bold statements without research ;)

Someone admits to it, that's the first one:-) Perhaps a little bold, but not whitout research. But you hadn't responded had i t not been bold, had you:-) Anyway I think my point still stands, Qt licenses to all at WMware would cost a lot less than what RH spends on GTK.

Reply Score: 1

RE[17]: gnome still sucks
by Hiev on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:40 UTC in reply to "RE[16]: gnome still sucks"
Hiev Member since:
2005-09-27

Who knows, but Red hat have customers that maybe would like to interact with their libraries, using Qt would inherited the GPL license to their customers forcing them to GPL their code or expend at least another 2500 dls, Red Hat is smart enought to go with GTK instead, GTK has save them a lot of money to them and the satisfaction of their customers.

Reply Score: 1

IF QT was GPLED
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:38 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

IF QT was GPLED,why none forked a one and like the Xorg to the XFree86?

Reply Score: 0

RE: IF QT was GPLED
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:48 UTC in reply to "IF QT was GPLED"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> IF QT was GPLED,why none forked a one and like the Xorg
> to the XFree86?

Actually the question is not "if QT was GPL'ed" the thing is QT IS GPL'ed as you can read here.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4030623636.html

Even if you use the QPL you are still allowed to make changes of QT and redistribute it

http://www.trolltech.com/licenses/qpl.html

And why does anyone want to fork QT and who should maintain it ? I think the symbiosis with Trolltech and KDE is just perfect. The right persons working on the right things. Besides that QT is not the only project from Trolltech, they have created a lot of very powerful and great stuff.

Reply Score: 0

RE: IF QT was GPLED, it is
by Morty on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:47 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

IF QT was GPLED,why none forked a one and like the Xorg to the XFree86?

Qt is GPL. The reasons why no one bother to fork is that maintaining and developing it are a huge and costly job and that Troll Tech are doing an excellent job already, making a fork a ridiculous waste of resources.

Reply Score: 1

RE[24]: gnome still sucks
by Morty on Fri 28th Oct 2005 00:14 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Now imagine how much would VMWare cost if you add the license of Qt cost? maybe triple. GTK is the right way to go, Qt/KDE is only destinated to fail, is to damn expensive,

Actually that comment only shows how clueless you are, from the size of the company(VMware) I guess they spend more on coffee each year than the Qt licenses would have cost.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[25]: gnome still sucks
by Yuske on Fri 28th Oct 2005 00:16 UTC in reply to "RE[24]: gnome still sucks"
RE[26]: gnome still sucks
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 00:16 UTC in reply to "RE[25]: gnome still sucks"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> > I guess they spend more on coffee each year than the
> > Qt licenses would have cost.
>
> If thinking in that way makes you happy, go ahead, but > the really is quiet different.

They drink tea ?

Reply Score: 0

Nice
by Soulbender on Fri 28th Oct 2005 02:05 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

Another discussion ruined by the osnews attention whores.

Reply Score: 2

v people bashing GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 04:35 UTC
v RE: people bashing GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 11:08 UTC in reply to "people bashing GNOME"
v RE[2]: people bashing GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 11:45 UTC in reply to "RE: people bashing GNOME"
RE[3]: people bashing GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 12:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: people bashing GNOME"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> like to trash gnome for any and every reason.

If GNOME had a rock solid framework then there would be no reason not even the posibility to trash it.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[4]: people bashing GNOME
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 13:03 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: people bashing GNOME"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> to quote from Linux User, Issue 55, pp61-62.
> 'Nickell believes ...'

Nickell as in Seth Nickell, the GNOME developer? What a convincing quote to prove your point. NOT!

Reply Score: 1

v repost
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 17:27 UTC
v repost
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 19:37 UTC