Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 27th Oct 2005 19:52 UTC, submitted by Sean
.NET (dotGNU too) Microsoft on Thursday released to manufacturing its Visual Studio 2005 and SQL Server 2005 products, previously known by the code names Whidbey and Yukon respectively. Officials at the company called the RTM of the technology a significant milestone on the road to the launch of Visual Studio 2005, SQL Server 2005 and BizTalk Server 2006. The .NET Framework 2.0 has also been released. All will be available via MSDN today.
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Express Editions
by LGordon on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:39 UTC
LGordon
Member since:
2005-10-25

Does anyone know if the Express Editions will still be free? I really liked being able to try out the pieces without needing the whole thing.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Express Editions
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 20:40 UTC in reply to "Express Editions"
Anonymous Member since:
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As far as I know they will cost $50 bucks a pop.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Express Editions
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 22:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Express Editions"
Anonymous Member since:
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They WILL BE DEFINITELY free for download, but they will cost 50 bucks if you choosed retail buy, box, manuals etc.

Question is: download link for EXPRESS final, anyone?

cowgaR

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Express Editions
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 22:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Express Editions"
Anonymous Member since:
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The final version of the express edition isn't out yet. And there is no indication that downloads for the final version will be free. Only the beta is freely available. The FAQ states they will be sold for $49/each. Very acceptable if you ask me. I've been using beta2 and it is quite nice. Does everything visual studio ever did for me and is a bit lighter.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Express Editions
by BrianH on Fri 28th Oct 2005 02:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Express Editions"
BrianH Member since:
2005-07-06

SQL Server 2005 Express will be free, even when the other Express packages are sold. It will also likely be download-only, although packaged with the other Express stuff.

Reply Score: 1

Finally!
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:01 UTC
Anonymous
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That really took a long time. Hopefully they will now address the remaining performance issues with the JIT such as the lack of struct inlining.

Anyway, I prefer a late but good release to a fast but broken release (like e.g. java "generics").

Reply Score: 0

v Great ide which is too expensive
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 21:12 UTC
Anonymous Member since:
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I think the question is, can a person be more productive with VS.NET 2005 than with the alternatives without sacrificing quality? That question is not rhetorical - I honestly don't know the answer. But if the answer is yes, then time is money and the time saved using it will eventually pay for itself.
As an analogy, a friend of mine (who is a professional web developer) paid several hundred dollars for Dreamweaver, and then made it all back in one afternoon after completing just one job. Of course, you're not going to be programming any other platforms than Windows with VS.NET, but if that's all you're after anyway, it's probably the right tool for the job.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Member since:
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well one case in point for myself is the ability to click the play button and my app compiles. Of course, learning thirty different compile switches is an important aspect of programming too, but I tend to prefer driving my car rather than spending all day polishing it, and run out of time.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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this post has a valid point.

please do not mod down in favor of pro MS related posts OSnews.com.

fair is fair.

---------------------------------------

*zzz* - java, gcc, mono, freepascal, python and accompanying IDEs
As for GUI - gtk, wxwidgets, qt which are available for most plattforms (i don't know how it is on MacOSX though).

Yes, actually MSVS is a nice IDE, IMO the only descent product available from their house, but I still didn't understand why companies pay so much money for an application which is available for much less ...

Maybe I'm wrong and just too much used to gedit which has every function I could ever need (manual refactoring, manual compilation, manual source browsing and so on). Granted, I never had to refactor code twenty times before beginning to understand it, so until now I don't know what refactoring is good for ;)
_________________________
Total: a very good IDE for Windows-only applications, too expensive (IMO). Or can your startup deal/firm afford 10 MSVC licences just to have a better GUI? Go eclipse, go dev-c++, go kdevelop, go anjuta, go lazarus, move your butts and kick MSVC's own ;)

As for me - I'm really looking sharp at freepascal right now - too powerful is that monster.
_________________________

PS: same for SQL

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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*zzz* - java, gcc, mono, freepascal, python and accompanying IDEs
As for GUI - gtk, wxwidgets, qt which are available for most plattforms (i don't know how it is on MacOSX though).

Yes, actually MSVS is a nice IDE, IMO the only descent product available from their house, but I still didn't understand why companies pay so much money for an application which is available for much less ...


Because this stuffs (except gcc, qt and eclipse) are only funny toys if you compared to MSVS. Yes, if you create a simple "Hello word" application the difference is not too significant, but if you want to create commercial, enterprise-level apps, you will see this difference. And if you a professional developer, the price of the development environment is not too important. If you can cut off the time and the coft of the development with a decent IDE/RAD tool IMHO the VS is a good investment.

Reply Score: 1

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

You bought up a very valid issue; for most people, can the Microsoft development suite really be justified? is it more an issue of a developing getting all excited about a new piece of software rather than sitting down and justifying the costs.

Believe me, being a geek, being excited about it and better still, the employer pays for it, I admit, I'd love to get every cool gadget that gets released; but lets be adults and justify the purchase; if the expected productivity increase doesn't correspond to the cost of the piece of software, then its a wasted investment; too bad many companies don't crunch that little formulae before upgrading, changing or standardising their software on a particular vendor.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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The professional software development is a business, not only an entertainment. I'am a linux developer (at this moment) and I tired many developer tools and environments. At this moment I use Kylix, because when my project was born it was the best tool for this purpose. But Kylix is died and there are many better alternatives (java, .NET) (when I started my project Java was very slow in the avarage computer, but now it is useable). IMHO there are only two viable alternative for business software: the java and the .NET. Java is better for linux, .NET is better for windows based desktop applications, and about equal for smaller windows-based servers apps. The basic IDE is cheaper for java (eclipse or netbeans) but the VS is far better then this tools. And because the most of customers want windows applications, the good decision for me the .NET and the Visual Studio.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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"The basic IDE is cheaper for java (eclipse or netbeans) but the VS is far better then this tools. "


Those "basic" cheap IDE's that you mention for java are in fact FREE and comparing it to a thousand dollar product is comparing apples and oranges. If you want to compare VS with a Java tool then compare it with something like Intellij IDEA , IBM Websphere , etc..I think you will be in for a surprise, specially IDEA , cheaper and superior.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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IDEA very nice IDE, but it doesn't seem better then the free Eclipse. Websphere is also very nice, but it is a little bit too expensive. The VS is better for me: not too expensive and more feature ritch then Eclipse. The other possible potential tool is the Borland JBuilder, but after the Kylix I never buy Borland product anymore.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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The basic IDE is cheaper for java (eclipse or netbeans) but the VS is far better then this tools.

Really? I found the opposite to be true. Eclipse is far nicer to work with than VS. Eclipse has way more advanced support for on the fly error checking and refactoring. VS is ok for C#/.NET, but Eclipse is a pleasure to code (Java) in.

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Anonymous Member since:
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But the VE plugin is slow like a hell, there is not visual editor for JSP/JSF, you must code everything with your hand or buy external commercial plugins but it is a very dangerous thing, because if the company who created the plugin out of business you can't upgrade your Eclipse, because the old plugins are not compatible with the newer versions of Eclipse.

Reply Score: 0

some free editor
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 22:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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check out:

http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/

while all the others of my class used version 2004 of visual studio.net, i used this program.
it uses less space and provides about the same interface as the MS-product.
and after all, it's FREE

Dj Comidi

Reply Score: 0

RE: some free editor
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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SQL Server 2005 Express will be free, just as MSDE 2000 was/is.

Visual C#/VB/C++/Web Express were never said to be free ($50 for each).

Reply Score: 0

v All will be available via MSDN today.
by Anonymous on Thu 27th Oct 2005 23:41 UTC
tonywob Member since:
2005-07-06

And why is it gcc all the way, Mr Linux Leet Dude??????????

Reply Score: 1

For Visual Studio 2003...
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 02:50 UTC
Anonymous
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Unlike Visual Studio 6 or Visual Studio 2002, I think Visual Studio 2003 is a great product with a nice C++ compiler.

I hope that the next service pack for Visual Studio 2003 doesn't break things or introduce annoying anomolies to the point where we feel compelled to upgrade or uninstall the service pack.

Reply Score: 1

Buying VS.NET 2005
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 05:51 UTC
Anonymous
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Can we pre-order anywhere so that we get it delivered to our doors on Nov. 7th? I've got a new ASP.NET project starting in November and I'd definitely like to do it with 2005, I just don't want to wait too long to get started.

Reply Score: 0

v C++ and stable secure code
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 06:45 UTC
v MySQL vs SQL Server 2005
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 06:51 UTC
RE: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 07:49 UTC in reply to "MySQL vs SQL Server 2005"
Anonymous Member since:
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Why?
Features


:-))))))))))))))))

And MySQL is NOT free. Let see the license...

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 09:34 UTC in reply to "RE: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005"
Anonymous Member since:
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And Oracle bough InnoDB, only good part of MySQL :-D

See this: www.fyracle.org

Reply Score: 0

RE: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005
by jayson.knight on Fri 28th Oct 2005 08:00 UTC in reply to "MySQL vs SQL Server 2005"
jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

Until MySQL has a top 10 entry over on TPC.org, it will not be taken seriously by businesses in the enterprise application space. As of now, MSSQL Server has the top 4 spots on price/transaction, which makes it an extremely attractive package for Windows.

http://tpc.org/tpcc/results/tpcc_price_perf_results.asp

MySQL lends itself well to ISP/hosting type scenarios, but has some serious inroads to make into corporations.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005
by Moocha on Fri 28th Oct 2005 12:12 UTC in reply to "RE: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005"
Moocha Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh, come on. I'm not a fan of MySQL either, but doing this isn't fair - the TPC-C benchmark you linked to did not even test MySQL. Until one sees hard numbers on MySQL transaction performance one can't draw any conclusions.

Reply Score: 1

jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

That's because MySQL simply can't compete performance-wise with any of the big players; they've submitted stuff before IIRC and it wasn't even close to the others. I'd really like to see some sort of OSS RDBMS make it into the top 10 at some point though. Not a huge fan of MySQL either, but it'd be a great day for OSS if they got a spot on the TPC (or PostGRE/Firebird/etc).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: MySQL vs SQL Server 2005
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 09:31 UTC in reply to "MySQL vs SQL Server 2005"
Anonymous Member since:
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so why don't you marry it

Reply Score: 0

benchmarking
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 07:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Well at least they have eased the restrictions about publishing benchmark results a bit.
Now it is a lot easier to show how the .NET VM (CLR in dotnet speak) compares to Java VM's in benchmarks.
Java still has a commanding lead in benchmarks e.g. SciMark, even in the latest release.

Feel free to check this for yourself:
C# version of SciMark for VS2005:
http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~ckrintz/racelab/PhxCSBenchmarks/
Java version of SciMark:
http://math.nist.gov/scimark2/

Note to wannabe Java benchmarkers:
When you test a Java app be sure to use the -server switch as in:
java -server TestApp

And if you are looking for even more zip try one of these builds:
http://download.java.net/jdk6/binaries/

Reply Score: 0

RE: benchmarking
by Deviate_X on Fri 28th Oct 2005 09:16 UTC in reply to "benchmarking"
Deviate_X Member since:
2005-07-11

"Well at least they have eased the restrictions about publishing benchmark results a bit.
Now it is a lot easier to show how the .NET VM (CLR in dotnet speak) compares to Java VM's in benchmarks.
Java still has a commanding lead in benchmarks e.g. SciMark, even in the latest release.

Feel free to check this for yourself:
C# version of SciMark for VS2005:
http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/~ckrintz/racelab/PhxCSBenchmarks/
Java version of SciMark:
http://math.nist.gov/scimark2/
"


Those benchmarks you linked to were against C# during Beta 1.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: benchmarking
by Anonymous on Mon 31st Oct 2005 08:33 UTC in reply to "RE: benchmarking"
Anonymous Member since:
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Those benchmarks you linked to were against C# during Beta 1.

The links I gave were for projects containing the source code (C# and Java) so you can run the benchmarks yourself, like I have. I wasn't talking about any published results, download the code and run them yourself.

Java was significantly faster when I ran the tests a few days ago.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
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I would like to write in C# for PocketPC and could find only Visual Studio supporting this.

Can SharpDevelop handle PocketPC application projects?

Reply Score: 0

Benchmarks
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 15:44 UTC
Anonymous
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If you are going to compare old versions for speed, how about a nice one showing .NET 2.0 Beta 2 beating the 1.5 JVM:

http://www.theserverside.net/articles/showarticle.tss?id=NET2Benchm...

Reply Score: 0

RE: Benchmarks
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 05:28 UTC in reply to "Benchmarks"
Anonymous Member since:
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How about a nice response from Sun explaining where Microsoft went wrong in that benchmark? http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=27801

Reply Score: 0

WooHoo!!!
by Anonymous on Fri 28th Oct 2005 19:50 UTC
Anonymous
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Let the bug writing begin.

Reply Score: 0

GCC
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 22:38 UTC
Anonymous
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GCC isn't a development environment twits. A UNIX development environment is a combination of small utilities including (but not limited to) make, automake, autoconf, sh, awk, sed, a text editor, gdb, diff, cvs et al and gcc. If you're on a BSD system, you can ditch autotools for the pmake mk system (my preference). All of them do their job well. All of them are easily replacable. It'd be nice if people knew what they were talking about before making stupid comments.

Now if you want to slap an "IDE" on top of these to "intergrate" them, go ahead. Some people choose to live in ignorance to reduce their cognative load. Others choose not to. I prefer not to deal with IDE project files and other superferlous garbage.

I'm not sure how this all relates to Monad however. Flame away.

Reply Score: 0

Re: GCC
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 22:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Must have followed the cross linked reference from the monad story to the wrong comments. Ignore the last line.

Reply Score: 0