Linked by Eugenia Loli on Sat 29th Oct 2005 08:38 UTC, submitted by carbon-12
Gnome According to some, one of the adoption problems of the Gnome development platform is the lack of good documentation for new developers. And so the GNOME Foundation has hired Shaun McCance as a contractor to write such documentation. Elsewhere, the Gnome developers discuss about which new apps should be included in the upcoming Gnome 2.14 release.
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v Fact
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 09:01 UTC
RE: Fact
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 09:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Not even facts would spur acceptance for your comments...

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: Fact
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 17:41 UTC in reply to "RE: Fact"
v RE[2]: Fact
by Tom K on Mon 31st Oct 2005 01:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Fact"
WTF
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 09:35 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I don't think one person can write all the documentation
it's a huge work.
Developers would to write examples for their libraries not freelances.

Reply Score: 0

RE: WTF
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 09:49 UTC in reply to "WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
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If you bothered to read the links you will find the person contracted is a long term contributor and lead of the GNOME docs project and he is only being contracted to write a introductory guide and not everything required

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: WTF
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:41 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> If you bothered to read the links you will find the
> person contracted is a long term contributor and lead
> of the GNOME docs project and he is only being
> contracted to write a introductory guide and not
> everything required.

Well not that long term contributor, compared to many other people who had been contributing to GNOME since beginning but that isn't my point actually.

The thing is that from my opinion it would have been a much more need to get some replacement for the scrollkeeper package which hasn't been maintained nor touched or fixed for quite a few years yet. And it's still an urgent requirement for GNOME.

What would also be required is that Yelp finally get's printing support so people can finally print the documents or certain pages of the documents for offline reading.

He's been working on the GNOME doc stuff and primarily yelp from what I know. It would have been better to have him paid for doing this work (getting rid of scrollkeeper + yelp printing support) and have any random XYZ person write the docs who is probably not able to code, rather than have a coder taken away from this resource doing documents. Just an idea.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: WTF
by Kris on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: WTF"
Kris Member since:
2005-07-24

Documentation is an important part of programming thus it makes perfect sense to have a programmer write documentation. Also if the docs are decent, (future) developers might be able to do their work better so while you take one programmer of the coding everyone gains. Of course it's never that simple (it'll take more devs to write good documentation and after all it's "just" a foreword)

Reply Score: 3

v How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 09:43 UTC
v RE: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 09:51 UTC in reply to "How OSN works"
RE: How OSN works
by Rowan Lewis on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:07 UTC in reply to "How OSN works"
Rowan Lewis Member since:
2005-10-13

Perhaps, if you want to make such remarks based on nothing more than the tendancy of Gnome to produce more news than other platforms, you should register so that everyone here knows who you are and can ignore you and you're pathetic comments.

Its also worth noting that if you want to stay up to date with KDE news that you can join their feed and get the latest news as it happens.

But I guess you never thought about than and will continue to flame Gnome for no reason.

If you don't like the platform, good for you, I don't like KDE but you don't see me taking negative and offensive action against it, grow up and register or go away.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:32 UTC in reply to "RE: How OSN works"
RE[3]: How OSN works
by Soulbender on Sat 29th Oct 2005 15:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: How OSN works"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Well, If you don`t like my comments then it`s your freedom to go and read on another site."

You dont get it. Your comments are not relevant for the topic at hand. This is not a "Whats your opinion on GNOME" news item.

"I for myself take the same given chance that has been given to most other readers to speak out my very own opinion and I believe I don`t have to justify this infront of you or anyone else."

When you post "opinions" that has no relevance to the topic you do.

" Sometimes the truth around GNOME seem to hurt too much ;) "
Opinions are not facts nor truth but that's besides the point anyway. You are trolling.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: How OSN works
by Celerate on Sat 29th Oct 2005 16:19 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: How OSN works"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

On the one hand the comments are for people to post their opinions on articles, on the other hand Anonymous shouldn't post misinformation and then expect not to be told off and moderated down.

Just my view of things.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 16:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: How OSN works"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> Anonymous shouldn't post misinformation and then expect
> not to be told off and moderated down.

Just because you have the ability to post anonymously still doesn't mean that everything posted are misinformations. You can be moderated down anyways, be it with account or without account. There are sick enough people with multiple accounts on OSN who moderate down for the sake of it and not for the context of the written comment. Just because you have an account with a pseudo name "godcrawler" doesn't make you more crediable that someone whose name is "anonymous".

Reply Score: 0

RE: How OSN works
by GhePeU on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:11 UTC in reply to "How OSN works"
GhePeU Member since:
2005-07-06

GNOME Articles on the front page:
1) Author Hired to Write Gnome Documentation for Developers
2) Open Source Java Desktop System Released (it is GNOME-based after all)

Not-GNOME Articles:
1) Oracle: Free Express Edition Database Released in Beta
2) More Information on the Microsoft Research OS Singularity
3) Review: Mandriva Linux 2006 PowerPack
4) Microsoft: Windows May Be Pulled in Korea
5) Pixel Ported to SkyOS
6) Avahi Now API/ABI Compatible with Howl/Bonjour
7) Sun Freezes Hell, Gets IBM To Sell Solaris on Blades
8) Microsoft Earnings Present a Mixed Bag
9) How To Speed up OpenOffice
10) Microsoft Warns Software Industry Is Ill-Prepared for Multicore
11) Why Do People Switch to Linux?
12) MySQL CEO: Partnerships Will Propel OSS Into Mainstream
13) Linux Kernel 2.6.14 Released
14) P.A. Semi's PPC Announcement, and Looking Back at The Switch
15) VS 2005, SQL Server 2005, .NET Framework 2.0 Released
16) OpenOpenOffice Plans To Bring ODF to MS Office
17) Novell Missteps Not Affecting SuSE
18) Microsoft Denies Preparations To Support OpenDoc in Office 12

2 out of 20 is very different from 5 out of 10, and by the way, you're ALWAYS trolling in every article that mention the word GNOME. 24:7.
you really should check a good therapist...

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:25 UTC in reply to "RE: How OSN works"
Anonymous Member since:
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Well, the problem is that OSN primarily reports about GNOME stuff and reject most supplied KDE articles. I know this from first hand since the amaroK developers tried a few times to report the news about the amaroK live CD here. While it has been made online on various other news sites it has been ignored on OSN and from what I was told this has happened with various other KDE related articles as well.

You may beg pardon but you can be sure that this leads to the conclusion that OSN primarily wants to push GNOME infront and giving KDE a good bunch of shits by ignoring most of its articles. There is also a tendency that I see from my side that this is done by intend.

There are a lot of worthwhile KDE articles either on their blog site as well as on the dot site. I recall times where Eugenia has put every single blog entry from various named GNOMER online and made it sound like these private own statements were true happenings. Well I don`t expect the same for KDE because I believe this is a silly thing to do but I as crediable reader of OSN can expect that every OS is being treated with the same respect.

If you are complaining about Trolls then please complain towards the OSN staff for exactly providing a plattform for this. If it`s not them treating their readers with disrespect and if it`s not them who primarily post more GNOME related material than XFCE, E or KDE ones then it`s clear that we have the tendency to believe that someone is pulling the ropes behind OSN.

Now OSN can`t live without money, so the guess is near that they are getting some sort of extra love from GNOME supporting companies. Now I don`t want to tell any names and can not prove it either but the feeling is there. Still!

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: How OSN works
by Rowan Lewis on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: How OSN works"
Rowan Lewis Member since:
2005-10-13

Thats much better, well written for a start, I hope to see you register.

Perhaps there is some extra love, but perhaps its also just as simple as all the reporters here are Gnome fans, and don't keep up with KDE news?

Perhaps they'd be willing to take someone on to post KDE news? If you're up to it, I'd ask.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: How OSN works"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Thats much better, well written for a start, I hope to see you register.

I do have a registered account on OSN and I once used it but saw that my basicly well written comments got moderated down faster than I was able to press reload due to all the fake accounts existing and due the fact that people are not interested to read what actually was written rather than who wrote it.

So before trashing my account I decided to write anonymously until the OSN staff find time to fix their broken moderation system and get rid of all their fake users.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: How OSN works
by Rowan Lewis on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:53 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: How OSN works"
Rowan Lewis Member since:
2005-10-13

I see, well, sort of. What are fake users?

The reason I like to talk with logged in users is because it makes it simple to reply to someone, and that way you can tell if it is one person trolling or not.

Its hard to reply to an Anonymous user by name.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[6]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: How OSN works"
RE[7]: How OSN works
by Rowan Lewis on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:12 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: How OSN works"
Rowan Lewis Member since:
2005-10-13

I see, still, I'm not sure why it should prevent you from using your account.

But if you don't want to I won't make you (I can't) ;)

I think this site needs a forum where such things can be discussed and resolved.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:38 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: How OSN works"
Anonymous Member since:
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There's a place meant for this kind of discussion, it's called OSNews MetaBlog. Please go there and stop the offtopic. This article is about Gnome.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[7]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:44 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: How OSN works"
RE[7]: How OSN works
by Rowan Lewis on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:59 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: How OSN works"
Rowan Lewis Member since:
2005-10-13

Really? Thanks, I had no idea what the 'meta' blog was about ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: How OSN works
by segedunum on Sat 29th Oct 2005 23:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: How OSN works"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, the problem is that OSN primarily reports about GNOME stuff and reject most supplied KDE articles.

In the past I've submitted a couple of KDE articles, and they've got on, but that's just stuff I considered to be noteworthy. One of them was something about Tenor I thought was interesting. I do not consider this article (where is the article, anyway?) to be noteworthy, Gnome, KDE or otherwise.

As for this bit of so-called news, I don't think a couple of half-cocked announcements on mailing lists qualifies. If you look at what this guy who has allegedly been hired is doing, he is merely writing a high level series of chapters about Gnome. This is not about going through every single damn API call and documenting it (actual development documentation), which is what Eugenia seems to be hinting at and what she's complained about in the past.

If it`s not them treating their readers with disrespect and if it`s not them who primarily post more GNOME related material than XFCE, E or KDE ones then it`s clear that we have the tendency to believe that someone is pulling the ropes behind OSN.

Well, on the desktop front it would be nice to see more XFCE stuff, Enlightenment or Looking Glass, just to see what different people are doing and how they go about doing them. I do not wish to see mailing list entries, or too many blog entries unless they're describing something that is actually interesting.

OK Eugenia, we get the picture - you want us all to believe that Gnome is actually doing something by presenting the least thing as news.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: How OSN works
by japail on Sat 29th Oct 2005 23:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: How OSN works"
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

This article has nothing to do with KDE. Take it somewhere else.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: How OSN works
by segedunum on Sun 30th Oct 2005 00:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: How OSN works"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

This article has nothing to do with KDE. Take it somewhere else.

What article? There's nothing here.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: How OSN works
by Best on Sun 30th Oct 2005 00:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: How OSN works"
Best Member since:
2005-07-09

Surely today's articles about Koffice, or the item about mandriva qualify as KDE stories. In fact, as far as I can tell there are an equal number of stories pertaining to both desktops today.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: How OSN works
by ma_d on Sun 30th Oct 2005 00:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: How OSN works"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

There is definitely a lack of good KDE articles on OSnews...

Reply Score: 1

_Very_ good
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 10:25 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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As pretty as GNOME looks on the surface, it does have its shortcomings in the developer documentation. This project seems to give a good overview that allows the aspiring developer to put the pieces in context before delving down to the (well available) doxygen level.

One thing I would like to see in addition to that is a decent guide to the abysmal build system. While PyGTK is totally pain free with precisely zero overhead, it gets brutally nasty with C/C++ and the autotools. (Alternatively, getting an easy-to-use project manager into Anjuta might help as well)

Rich

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: How OSN works
by Morty on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:17 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

I see, well, sort of. What are fake users?

By fake user I guess he means user having multiple accounts under different names, giving them extra moderation power. And some of those still post as Anonymous, only using their accounts for moderation.

The reason I like to talk with logged in users is because it makes it simple to reply to someone, and that way you can tell if it is one person trolling or not.

Agreed, and if they are trolling or simply clueless you soon learn to recognize them. That said, I wish there was a way to mark a user as clueless moron, the same way you mark friends. Making sorting even easier:-)

Its hard to reply to an Anonymous user by name.

Yes, unless the Anonymous post anything slightly negative, but somewhat reasonable argued about Gnome. Then you can call him Ali, that those comments sometimes originating from 4-5 ISPs in 3-4 countries on 2 continents does apparently not matter here on OSN:-)

But that's rater OT.

Edited 2005-10-29 11:24

Reply Score: 0

v RE[7]: How OSN works
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: How OSN works"
stop that kids!
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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will you guys (from both sides)stop this stupid behavior and comment only on the topics?

Sheesh, where do you get your education from?

Reply Score: 0

Hmm
by Morty on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:34 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

This line strikes me as rather strange:
The GNOME Foundation reserves the right not to publish the Work.

It sounds like they give themselves option to spend money without having to show anything for it.

Reply Score: 1

Good morning!
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 11:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This is great news! Thanks a lot!

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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Professional docs -- for developers and users -- are always a plus. Let's hope, then, tha Gnome users finally get something worth reading, too. (Shipping with broken or incomplete help files ought to be as verboten as shipping with broken apps.)

Reply Score: 0

GPL
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 13:23 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Excuse me for being a bit off-topic, but I'm just curious whether the GPL covers documentation as well.

Reply Score: 0

RE: GPL
by Morty on Sat 29th Oct 2005 13:39 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

Excuse me for being a bit off-topic, but I'm just curious whether the GPL covers documentation as well.

No reason why it can't, but as always you have to specify a license. A GPL program does not necessary have documentation licensed with the GPL.

Regarding the documentation in this news item it's supposed to be released under the GFDL. Which is something like GNU Free Documentation License according to Google. A rather more restrictive license than the GPL btw.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: GPL
by Wrawrat on Sat 29th Oct 2005 18:55 UTC in reply to "RE: GPL"
Wrawrat Member since:
2005-06-30

Just a side note on the GFDL: some Debian developers believe that it's so restrictive that it does not follow their DFSG. In fact, they are writing a draft[1] explaining why they cannot accept documents with such licence in Debian. To what I understand (e.g. don't take this as cold cash, I might be wrong), one of the main issues is that you cannot print a GFDL-licenced document without including the licence, even for personal use, even if you only need one of the pages. There is also the irony that the GFDL is GPL-incompatible and vice-versa...

I remember that RMS justified this licence a while ago by stating that documentation is not like software code. Needless to say, he is right. Still, I question the need of the additional restrictions. Yes, documentation should stay free, but it shouldn't be a burden to distribute. IMO, anyway.

While the GNOME project probably got their reasons for their choice, I believe the CC would have been a wiser choice. Nevertheless, it's still better than no documentation!

[1]: http://people.debian.org/~srivasta/Position_Statement.html

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: GPL
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 00:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: GPL"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I remember that RMS justified this licence a while ago by stating that documentation is not like software code."

It runs on a different kind of CPU. :>

Reply Score: 0

Excited...
by Yuske on Sat 29th Oct 2005 16:44 UTC
Yuske
Member since:
2005-07-28

This will bring more developers henese more quality, Good job GNOME team.

Reply Score: 2

please document this.
by Anonymous on Sat 29th Oct 2005 19:05 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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How to access a widget from inside a call back or otherwise gain access to the global environment.
How to do this seems to be missing from every single example.

Reply Score: 0

RE: please document this.
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 00:18 UTC in reply to "please document this."
Anonymous Member since:
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It is missing as variable scope is basic programming, you can only access what you pass in. You want access to a variable (pointer to a widget for example) you need to make sure it is available, passed as user_data, a global variable, accessible via g_object_get_data, or by manually walking the widget tree via widget->parent etc. etc.

If you are using libglade and are in a callback from a widget event, e.g.

static void clicked(GtkWidget *button, gpointer user_data )
{
GladeXML *xml = glade_get_widget_tree (button);
GtkWidget *widget = glade_xml_get_widget (xml,"whatever");

}

I really don't know what the problem people have with the documentation is, yes it is incomplete in places, but such basic things as the post this is replying to is only a problem of the programmer, not the documentation.

Reply Score: 1

v So?
by Mystilleef on Sun 30th Oct 2005 01:40 UTC
v RE: So?
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 10:28 UTC in reply to "So?"
v RE[2]: So?
by Mystilleef on Sun 30th Oct 2005 19:39 UTC in reply to "RE: So?"
v RE[3]: So?
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: So?"
v RE[4]: So?
by Mystilleef on Sun 30th Oct 2005 21:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: So?"
v RE[5]: So?
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 21:07 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: So?"
v RE[6]: So?
by Mystilleef on Sun 30th Oct 2005 21:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: So?"
RE[7]: So?
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 21:28 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: So?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Did you at least read what I wrote in my lengthy reply to you ? I don't expect you to understand the context, but you could at least have spent 1 min reading it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: So?
by Anonymous on Sun 30th Oct 2005 23:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: So?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Talking about the Krappy Desktop Environment is off-topic here.

Reply Score: 0

RE: So?
by segedunum on Sun 30th Oct 2005 11:01 UTC in reply to "So?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

GNOME has a better marketing team. Get over it.

No. It's just the usual bullshit we've come to expect over the years. Unfortunately, it spreads to other open source desktops and pieces of software when people cry wolf and nothing happens. The consequences of that are that people out there, and the very people who Gnome want to try and attract (allegedly), think that anyone who promotes the use of open source software is full of it.

Maybe I, or other people who happen to like KDE, should try and submit every mailing list or blog entry to here as news. I mean, Aaron Seigo getting hired by Trolltech to work on Plasma and KDE and to do actual useful things like the OSDW workshops (actually getting people developing) would make a hell of an article. But, you know, many of us have different ideas of news.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[2]: So?
by Mystilleef on Sun 30th Oct 2005 19:38 UTC in reply to "RE: So?"
wich kde news to write
by dizzey on Sun 30th Oct 2005 02:56 UTC
dizzey
Member since:
2005-10-15

i tried all versions of kde they all seem the same if they do anything new im sure ut will get posted like the kde composite thingy.

Reply Score: 0

v The fall of KDE...
by Yuske on Mon 31st Oct 2005 15:15 UTC
RE: The fall of KDE...
by cm__ on Tue 1st Nov 2005 08:22 UTC in reply to "The fall of KDE..."
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

Wow, I'd really like some of what you've been smoking...

Reply Score: 1