OSNews

what's there to bitch about?

First of all, lower your tone. We have had some complaints about you, so please, for your own good, get some decent manners.

Anyway, the point anonymous brings up is a valid one. MS should have introduced symbolic links earlier, they're simply very late to the party, and there's no problem in someone making that clear.

At least he didn't use any insults or 'bad' words. Learn from him.

Linux users have such single-track minds. As soon as anything mentions Microsoft, it's like "RED ALERT, RED ALERT, SWITCH ON MICROSOFT-BASHING PORTION OF BRAIN" ... and then all reason flies out the door.

Thanks for the insult, sonny. I'm a Linux user. You generalize too much, and that's dangerous.

Remember those complaints we recieved. Consider this an official, public warning.

I take it you are either new to this site, or you haven't came across "Linux Is Poo" before.
The guy insults Linux and Linux users every chance he gets. He justs comes into articles to start an argument.
He should be banned.

Where is the insult aimed at you?

I am a Linux user, a windows user and an OS X user, and I agree with his statement.

The new item is that Microsoft is implementing support for symbolic links. There is nothing in this article that tries to state that *symbolic links* are new, simply that MS is now supporting them. Simply witness any Windows related tech. thread on this site, and it turns into Windows bashing.

On a related off topic topic:

When are we going to get to vote on knee jerk reactionary insulting comments made by OS news staff?

When are we going to get to vote on knee jerk reactionary insulting comments made by OS news staff?

This isn't about agreeing or not, this is about the Linux Is Poo user systematically acting like a jerk, and we've been getting complaints about him. I'm actually very leniant, but when I get multiple complaints from other readers, I have to take action.

On other websites, the mere 'Linux Is Poo' username is enough to get his account de-activated. I tolerate it, as long as he acts like a normal ordinary user. There was no need to insult the anonymous poster of the original comment. That, combined with the various complaints, led to the warning.

"Linux users have such single-track minds."
"Linux users" used here as an absolute (it's a noun for all users of Linux).

"I am a Linux user, a windows user and an OS X user, and I agree with his statement. "
"his statement" here is referring to the above statement about single track minds. You've put yourself in as part of the group "Linux users" by calling yourself "a Linux user."

The only possible way you could:
1.) Speak English.
2.) Not find that insulting.
Is if you don't consider having a one-track mind to be a bad thing. The general consensus amongst the people I've known is that it is a bad thing, especially if not immediately followed by a harmless story from childhood by one's own mother. Given the odds of "linux is poo" being your mother, and the lack of a story; I think it's safe to say that context doesn't exist here.

That is how it's insulting.
And yes, this was supposed to make you feel bad for asking something so obvious.


But you're right. No one is saying Microsoft is calling symlinks a new thing. However, that didn't make up for the slandar that was thrown against "Linux users" by "linux is poo" when "Linux" had not yet been mentioned.
This is the point where I remind the audience that not only does Linux already have symlinks, but, so does every other Unix variant.
I wouldn't be surprised if BeOS and OS/2 (in their current iterations) have them as well.

"When are we going to get to vote on knee jerk reactionary insulting comments made by OS news staff?"
When OSNews Inc (or w/e the company name is) has its IPO and you put your money where your mouth is.
Thom is fully in the right on this one. Many of us have been quite patient with "linux is poo", I've voted countless posts of his back up because someone voted it down just for his name (which I don't think that's what the voting system is for, I think the mods should cut his name).

Yes, BeOS has them.

The insult is aimed at all Linux users. Although his point IS valid, still, they way he expresses it is offensive.

"Linux users have such single-track minds."
"Linux users" used here as an absolute (it's a noun for all users of Linux).

Yea, like one didn't have to suffer all kinds of insults directed at 'windows users' all the time here.
Any such remark, no matter how absolutive, is in fact restricted by the behaviour expressed after, i.e., if one says 'linux users do X because they're Y', only those who really do X are being called Y.

So if I say, "Linux users (in general) have such one-track minds. They are simply too quick to bash everything to do with Microsoft." Would that be okay.

I don't find it insulting, because I think when someone makes a broad statement like that then it's generally accepted as being... a generalization. I'm a Linux user also, but I agree that in general Linux users are too caught up in hate for their own good. I believe Mac OX is the best Operating System because it's a product of love. Apple love their products and it shows. Linux is a product of hate. Linux communities (in general) continually bitch-slapp MS every chance they get. I'm not saying that MS doesn't deserve each and every kick it gets, but I do feel that Linux would be better, and the community would be healthier if it was based on a passion for Linux, rather than a anti-Microsoft mentality that seems to dominate the Open Source world.

Besides all that computer users that post on OS News (in general) seem to be far too sensitive. Saying Linux is Poo shouldn't matter. Isn't it like saying... apples are horrible, oranges taste better. People who eat apples have strange taste. Any apple eaters offended? So now I'm going to contradict myself a little. Although I said we needed more passion and less hate, now I'm going to say we need to tone down on the passion too. Get passionate about things that really matter. You'd think it really made some kind of difference if most of the world used one OS or another.

I see OSNews as a predominately alternative OS blog site (ie. the most widely used OS doesn't get a fair hearing). And I'm no "MS fanboy".

If Linux lost all steam and died tomorrow, and was never used by another person on the earth again... what REAL difference would it make? Probably none.

So if I say, "Linux users (in general) have such one-track minds. They are simply too quick to bash everything to do with Microsoft." Would that be okay.

Well, it's certainly not as offensive as some other anti-Linux posts, however you'd still be wrong - in my opinion.

The fact is that it is impossible to make a generalization like this and still be accurate. There are millions of Linux users out there, and only a small fration of them post here or on other OS "opinion" sites. That's a first source of bias (sample size). Another source of bias is that people who post here and on other OS opinion sites usually have stronger opinions than those who don't post.

I'm a Linux user also, but I agree that in general Linux users are too caught up in hate for their own good.

Again, let me respectfully disagree. Polls have shown that dislike of Microsoft is NOT the main reason cited by Linux users for their OS choice. In fact, it's safe to say that there are a lot more Windows users who hate Microsoft - I know the most vile words against MS I've heard came from people having problems with their Windows PCs...

Also, you have to realize that poking fun as something is not the same as hating that thing. Linux users may poke fun at MS and Windows, that doesn't mean they're consumed by negative emotions! I think you're clearly exaggerating here.

I believe Mac OX is the best Operating System because it's a product of love. Apple love their products and it shows. Linux is a product of hate.

Again, I disagree. Linux is a product of love, from all the hundreds of contributors to the kernel, its userspace apps, and distros. It is in fact more a labour of love than Mac OS X is, since Mac OS X is after all a commercial product primarily designed to sell Macs - and if you don't think that Mac OS enthusiasts can't flame Windows and Microsoft, then you've obviously never seen a Mac OS/Windows flamewar!

Besides all that computer users that post on OS News (in general) seem to be far too sensitive. Saying Linux is Poo shouldn't matter. Isn't it like saying... apples are horrible, oranges taste better. People who eat apples have strange taste. Any apple eaters offended? So now I'm going to contradict myself a little. Although I said we needed more passion and less hate, now I'm going to say we need to tone down on the passion too.

Indeed you are contradicting yourself, but not in the way you think. The fact is that "passion" and "hate" are not opposed, but one is actually contained in the other (i.e. "hate" is a passion).

The fact is that people like Linux is Poo are trolls, i.e. they deliberately post provoking and offensive messages in hope of eliciting a response. You're correct in the sense that people shouldn't respond to such attacks, however human nature is such that people will usually respond. So trolling should in fact be shunned as disruptive behavior.

Get passionate about things that really matter. You'd think it really made some kind of difference if most of the world used one OS or another.

Actually, it does, when the main consumer OS is owned by a single vendor. Things like vendor lock-in are not frivolous: they have a real economic, social and even political impact. Why do you think MS lobbies US senators and foreign politicians? Why do you think MS refuses to support ODF in the next version of Office?

I see OSNews as a predominately alternative OS blog site (ie. the most widely used OS doesn't get a fair hearing). And I'm no "MS fanboy".

The reason people criticize MS is that MS has a problem with allowing any kind of competition, and that it's seemingly incapable of playing fair. Most Linux users critical of MS wouldn't have a problem if a) it wasn't a monopoly; b) it didn't abuse its monopoly status; c) it didn't actively conduct a campaign to marginalize and slander Linux.

If Linux lost all steam and died tomorrow, and was never used by another person on the earth again... what REAL difference would it make? Probably none.

The same could be said of Windows or Mac OS X. What's your point?

I would have thought Thom was one of the last people who should be giving others a lecture in "tone".

it is new in windows. please point me to the phrase in which they say they invented symbolic links.

So what it only means more good things for Windows. I just don't know how long people want to use it since WinFS will introduce "SmartFolders", or whatever it's called, that is more lot more better than having symbolic links.

Well, not quite 40 years; symbolic links first appeared in 4.2bsd, which came out in 1983. So Microsoft is only 22 years behind.

"Well, not quite 40 years; symbolic links first appeared in 4.2bsd, which came out in 1983. So Microsoft is only 22 years behind."

Incorrect, NT (including XP,2k,2k3) has had symlinks since day1 and they are used for NTFS mount points, registry hive links and appcompat registry fixes. However, Microsoft has not provided a supported end-user (e.g. non-programatic method) of using symlinks until Vista (excluding Internix with standard shells). With that said, there have been both MS supplied (resource kit - linkd.exe) and third party tools for creating symlinks.

The best current tool for creating symlinks on NT systems is Junction from Sysinternals (http://www.sysinternals.com/Utilities/Junction.html).

So, no, symlinks are nothing new to the Windows world.

I believe NTFS, until now, has only supported hard links. Hard links are different than soft or symbolic links. Importantly, hard links cannot cross volumes (they are "hard" because they are handled by the filesystem).

Nothing new. Able to be used by mortals. And certainly newer than in Unix.

>> Microsoft is so innovative... UNIX has had
>> symlinks for 40 years, and PDF is an existing
>> established and accepted standard for many years.

symbolic links came to unix in the late 80s - before that unix had only hardlinks

"So, with symbolic links, virtual folders, automatic hard drive optimization, security improvements"

Rather like OSX! But I don't want to knock MS, who cares if Longhorn isn't 100% innovative. Take the bits you like incorporate and move on. Like pretty much every business, musician, film director etc.

Very well said. Consider this another +1.

It's about Microsoft implementing things and suggesting it's a new whiz bang feature they suddenly thought up. But I guess Windows fan boys won't see the irony in Microsoft adopting things Unix has had for a looong time.

Windows fan boys don't really care one way or the other. I mean, how long did it take for Linux distros to have decent looking fonts out of the box? Hell, some distros still don't have that. These two operating systems are becoming more like each other, as one's strengths seems to be the other's weaknesses. If MS comes up with something that *nix already has, it's going to be a bullet-point on the side of the box, no matter who came up with it first.

"Windows fan boys don't really care one way or the other. I mean, how long did it take for Linux distros to have decent looking fonts out of the box?"

Good fonts are an issue of quality. It wasn't like the Linux community pretended that good fonts wasn't of importance, but rather an issue of implementation. Symbolic links are a feature of convenience, which is clearly a concept borrowed by Microsoft an attempt to catch up to some technical benefits of *nix/*nux.

I mean, how long did it take for Linux distros to have decent looking fonts out of the box?

This was fixed a few years ago. Any larger linux distro today has better font technology than anything in Windows. Only Mac OS X can beat Linux on font quality.

But of course, you can't see it if you're not using a reasonable font.

Bitstreams fonts are really good, and you can use Windows Corefonts as well (legally) and then you have something which beats Windows in regard to font quality.

Bitstream fonts are usually a part of Gnome, and if not a part of Gnome it's shipped with OOo and therefore present on the system from the beginning.

This is true for all larger distro's and several minor ones.

Where in any of that does it say anything about a Microsoft innovation?

No where... for the first time ever in MS history MS doesn't claim to be innovative

NTFS also has hardlinks for files. Junctions and hardlinks are fall under reparse points. These are very little known features of NTFS because they're a disaster waiting to happen for the average user. Most people don't even know you can mount a NTFS drive onto a folder instead of drive letter.

Of course, if anyone actually RTFA, it was actually geared more towards SMB understanding symbolic links.

"Most people don't even know you can mount a NTFS drive onto a folder instead of drive letter. "

how do you do this? that would be cool

how do you do this? that would be cool

You can do it in the command line with fsutil, or through the logical disk manager (in the computer management MMC plugin). NTFS 'reparse points' are nothing more than mount points - and they have existed for a long time. In fact NT doesn't even require drive letters, but doing away with them would break too much software. You can mount any volume that doesn't have an assigned drive letter into any directory within an existing NTFS partition. I have two logical volumes on this machine grafted on to 'c:/mount'. These are hard drives with working NTFS partitions; they just don't have a drive letter associated with them. Again, you can do all this through the command line or the MMC GUI, and you've been able to do it since 1999 ('98 if you count the W2K betas).

Commenting on this article, nowhere did Microsoft say this feature was 'innovative', but I guess that doesn't stop the retard teenagers from excitedly blabbing about how 'MS is teh suxx' because they're 'copying' a 'Linux' feature, as if symlinks were somehow invented by Torvalds. OSnews consistently gets stories posted much more quickly than Splashdork, but the comments are going in the same direction - worthless flamebait.

You can do it with the Disk Manager. You right-click on your partition, you choose "Change drive letter and access path" then you can add or modify a path.

Some time ago, NT had a lot of compliance with the POSIX standard...

If there is no previous patent applied for, then there is nothing to stop Microsoft trying to patent it.

I actually hope they do try to patent the idea of symbolic links, for the reason that if they do, it will show the US patent laws up for the shambles they already are.

both 2k and xp support sym links thrue the console, just with a very clunky interface to do it. I assume sence they are bringing it up as a new feature that explorer will support making them, and sence MS has been working on a more robust command line that command line tools will have a better management of them then how you currently make them

I'd give an example of how you make them now.. but I completely forgot.. its something I stumbled on a long time ago

The difference is that .lnk files are implemented in the Windows shell (explorer). So only programs which understand them will treat them as pointing to some other thing.

If a program just asks the OS to open a .lnk file, it will get the data stored inside the .lnk file rather than the data it's meant to point to.

It becomes again clear in this thread that there's a lot of hidden and advanced features and such in Windows. Maybe it's time for someone to start up a website that documents these advanced and rarely-heard-of features?

there is already a site for this: http://msdn.microsoft.com

I think he meant one that isn't run by marketing types...

I think Junction Link Magic is what you need:
http://www.rekenwonder.com/linkmagic.htm

Log in as some other user, move c:documents and settingstemcat to d:temcat, make a blank directory c:documents and settingstemcat, and set up a junction.

P.S. Although it should be safe, the Temcat dir will contain lots of important things (HKEY_CURRENT_USER registry hive, for example). So there's a chance it might not work...perhaps it would be better just to move My Documents rather than Temcat.

P.P.S. don't trust what I said - I'm far too tired :-)

XPS's success is totally independent of Expression. XPS technology permeates Vista, and will be available (in its fixed document form) to the end-user as a built-in virtual printer. Office 12's support of XPS exposes document rendering functionality beyond that of the printer driver in the same way that it does with PDF (passing on things like live hyperlinks). XPS technology is a subset of WPF and is also used as a PDL, and Vista's print spooler format. It's also exposed via WinFX class libraries so XPS documents can be created and viewed on Vista and downlevel platforms. Not sure what the exact support plans for other platforms is in terms of direct support from MS, but Office 12 for Mac will also support the format, and I believe there'll be browser plugins as well. It could also be part of the WPF/E work.

Back to Expression -- There's really only one product out of the suite that could be said to be a new competitor to Adobe and that's the Graphics Designer. Of the other two products, Interactive Designer is a product for designers to use in software development -- something Adobe AFAIK had nothing similar to until possibly their acquisition of Macromedia (still not really the same space), and Web Designer appears to be an evolution of FrontPage.

More on the XPS cross-platform plans:

"We are planning on having viewers that support Mac and Unix—cross platform support is a critical part of the XPS story. I also know that there are several third-parties looking at building solutions for other platforms – so potentially the market will deliver something on its own, which would be great."

http://blogs.msdn.com/andy_simonds/comments/487487.aspx

I modded your post down because, to me, the automatic use of mental shortcuts such as "Linux religion" is in fact flame-bait in my book. If you can't express yourself without demonizing those you disagree with (i.e. by depicting them as religious fanatics when in fact technology and computers have nothing to do with religion), at least don't act offended when other people mod down your posts, or those of trolls whom you happen to agree with.

And yes, Linux is Poo is a troll. His post are almost always insulting, offensive and immature. Just because some Linux enthusiasts act in an immature way (Moulinneuf comes to mind) doesn't excuse Linux is Poo's behavior. As I've said before, when almost every single post you make is modded down, I believe that it indicates an attitude problem, not an alleged bias in the site's readership.

The moderation system is not perfect, but it's been working pretty well so far, IMO.

As for the specific comment not being offensive, did you actually read it?

Edited 2005-10-31 23:20

In all his wisdom, Linux is Poo wrote (before being modded down to oblivion): "You modded him down because he called Linux a religion? Have you *seen* most Linux forums out there? It's not just a religion, but the freaking Crusades!

If you mod people down for speaking the truth, you're only going to fulfill the prophecy of the typical self-absorbed, reactionary Linux zealot."

The truth, my dear LIP, is that such statements are highly subjective. By the same standard, most Windows and Mac forums could be called religious as well - not to mention game console forums! If you think OS discussions are heated, you should check out flamewars between Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo console owners, they're about ten times worse. (I myself own both a PS2 and Xbox, and I have had games published on all three, so I don't play favorites.)

After that, I suggest that you visit some political forums, i.e. conservative and liberal blogs, or sites such as Fark.com, to see what political flamewars are like, and you'll see that even the most heated OS discussion is tame in comparison.

This is the internet. People argue for what they believe in. Some try to do it in a civilized manner, many do not. Calling those who disagree with you "zealots" certainly isn't acting civilized - especially since, as I've noted before, pro-Linux posters tend to attack Microsoft, while anti-Linux posters attack individual Linux users. To the casual observers, if anyone deserves to be called a zealot (in other words, an extremist), it's people like you, LIP.

No wonder nearly all of your posts end up at -5...

Linux is Poo posting record is proof that the only thing lamer than a fanboy is an anti-fanboy.

Never or soon. I don't know and I don't care when there will be such a "real" multimedia API. I play all my games on Windows, soon I will buy a PS3. I don't use Linux to play, I use it for what is doing best for me, development in my area of expertise(Java/CPP), file server, web server, db server , ftp server all of them home. Time to time I use it as a desktop but that's because I am testing/checking some features of my favorite DE (Gnome-Dropline). Otherwise, I use Windows which is already booted up. I spend my time a lot using putty and ftp to transfer/deploy my files on the Linux server, the only distraction for me from my work is games, and only there I use Windows. I don't think it's the time and place to debate why aren't so many games on Linux,but rest assured is not the lack of these "real" multimedia libraries (or anyway they play a very small role in this case).

As for this :

Millions of people making meaningless code that is either on windows already such as firefox, apache, open office or simple stuff that windows already does.

Well, I could agree, but so far Microsoft didn't came anywhere close to what Apache is and it will be. I really don't care for the rest of the apps you enumerated, although I use FF on Windows as well.
You don't care about symbolic links, other people don't care about multimedia "real" API (honestly I have no clue what you are sayin', I watch movies and listen to some music in Linux as well)
Fact is, and it will always be obvious that innovation is not the MS strong point. And no, copying things and claiming patents on what they copied doesn't count.

In no part of his post does he say that his needs shall satisfy us all. So, why are you putting words into his mouth?

By the way, everyone's still using Apache and its security record is better than IIS's... People still use the old version...
http://secunia.com/product/73/
http://secunia.com/product/1438/

I'm quite impressed, IIS6 does seem to have a nice record. So does IIS5, so why does it have such a reputation for getting cracked?

Well, I had an opinion opposite from yours and my post got modded down as well, so should I consider that it proved my point?

You guys should study rhetorics a little more before making such easily-disproved statements.

Allow me to re-use your own words:

Microsoft is the new jihad, it cannot tolerate differing viewpoints without trying to destroy them or absorb them, mod it down if you want, but it is the truth. No matter how the truth hurts, it's still the truth.

No, wait, that's just an opinion, like your own statement. Let me correct you, then:

No matter how much you want your opinion (i.e. Linux is the new jihad) to be the truth, it's still just your opinion.

There, I fixed it for you.

Hey, someone modded down my post. Therefore, according to proforma's logic, this actually proves my point.

Isn't false logic fun?

How many people outside of Microsoft are for Microsoft and act like Zealots? Answer Not many.

How many Linux users act like pot smoking religious zealots for their OS. HINT: More than there are people that are Microsoft Zealots by far.

Thats a fact and there are many reasons for this, not in relation to anything Microsoft is doing.

It amazes me how intelligent some linux zealots are, but lack even the most basic common sense.

Freedom of speech is what linux is supposed to be about so I find moding this post down kind of proves my point. It's overrated and so is linux.

Freedom of speech is overrated? Or your point is? (Which would explain why it's being modded down, actually...)