Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:22 UTC
Novell and Ximian "Contrary to what was expected from recent Novell announcements, Novell executives are apparently slicing deeply into the Linux heart of the company. Jobs and resources are actually being slashed in several areas previously dubbed by Novell management as "key component parts of Novell's Linux developments": staffers working on Mono, Hula, Evolution and Desktop Strategy are getting the sack. SUSE customers around the world will be shocked and puzzled by this management decision."
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Saving Grace
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:39 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I really feel for Novell. I think they have a real opportunity to do some good, for themselves, shareholders and the community. Let's hope that their short terms needs do not impact their longterm prospects.

Reply Score: 0

v Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:45 UTC
v RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:49 UTC in reply to "Novell, do this; LISTEN"
v RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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Not a single KDE setup? That doesn't make you wonder how representive your statistics is?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Celerate on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

All the desktop's I've seen people use were KDE, we have mutually exclusive results here.

Anyway in my opinion Gnome is used in so many distributions because those aim to sell their product towards companies which want to avoid the Qt license. Companies often have software written for them, it's far safer for them to go with a toolkit which will have no cost should they decide to redistribute that software without the intent of releasing source code. Also the distributor can write commercial software which matches the desktop then without having to buy an expensive license.

To make my point consider the following. Distributions which are geared towards home users moreso than companies used KDE as the main desktop, these include Linspire, Xandros and Lycoris (before it was acquired). Distributions which sit on the fence so to speak have a good KDE desktop as well as somewhat neglected but usable Gnome desktop, these include Mandriva and SUSE. Finally distributions which are geared towards corporate and government customers use Gnome such as Red Hat, Sun and Novell (Novell Desktop).

There are exceptions of course, some people like Gnome more than KDE for home use and some people preffer KDE over Gnome for corporate use, but I think this adequately shows major trends in the use of Linux's desktop environments.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by carbon-12 on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:51 UTC in reply to "Novell, do this; LISTEN"
carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

"Listen to the people. I have not met a single soul that would prefer Gnome over KDE."

Then you must be a hermit. In North America atleast, Gnome is far more popular than KDE. In Europe the opposite seems to be true.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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"In North America atleast, Gnome is far more popular than KDE. In Europe the opposite seems to be true."

Quite possible, because there's mainly known and used Red Hat which is distributing Gnome, so people take what's given to them, while there are Suse/Mandriva in Europe shipping by default with KDE.

That must also be why Linux adoption never really took off in North America compared to Europe.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Mitarai on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

How did you now it didn't took off?

Troll.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Say it with me, now:

correlation is not cause

Repeat until nausea ensues.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by carbon-12 on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

"while there are Suse/Mandriva in Europe shipping by default with KDE.

[...]

That must also be why Linux adoption never really took off in North America compared to Europe."


Right, Mandriva (formerly Mandrake) had to file for bankruptcy a little while ago and SUSE's market share has declined from 25% in 2002 to 20% now[0].

Red Hat on the other hand has seen increasing growth over the years and is now aggressively moving into Europe, India, and China.

[0] http://www.boston.com/business/technology/articles/2005/11/01/novel...

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 07:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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Actually Mandrake filed for controlled administration in 2003, not "a while ago", and recovered from that in the first half of 2004. Also, financial issues were caused not by their Linux distribution but by their e-learning sector.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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I live in America and Ubuntu (not Kubuntu) is very popular.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by moronikos on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
moronikos Member since:
2005-07-06

I live in America, and Ubuntu is not very popular at all. Almost no one has heard of it, and hardly anyone is using it. Just about everyone is using Windows or OSX.

Go out on the street and ask the first 100 people you meet if they have heard of Ubuntu. Then ask them if they have heard of Windows. The answers will tell you that Ubuntu or any Linux desktop is not "very popular".

I have both Ubuntu and SUSE, but the HPD count on DistroWatch is not any measure of popularity except in a very narrow population.

Reply Score: 2

Bending Unit Member since:
2005-07-06

Finally, someone from the same planet as me. Hello ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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While those user who frequent OSNews and Slashdot may be more likely to use Gnome; Linux Journal and Linux Magazine estimate KDE usage at 2 to 1 over Gnome. Even Redhat's QA numbers show more users of KDE... and that is on a Gnome centric distribution. The reality of the situation is that KDE is somewhere between 2 and 3 TIMES more popular than Gnome.

Bobby

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:04 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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The reality of the situation is that KDE is somewhere between 2 and 3 TIMES more popular than Gnome.

The last time I cheked Ubuntu was the king, but of course it is abvious that KDE users want to believe in some random polls voted for KDE trolls, it is all normal.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by ma_d on Sat 5th Nov 2005 02:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

I'm a new KDE fan. It's all about kpdf, I'm serious kpdf is incredible...

Really though, kde 3.4 makes up for 3.2 and 3.3... I really hope they keep this level of quality.

Reply Score: 1

KPDF
by Rahul on Sat 5th Nov 2005 04:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Rahul Member since:
2005-07-06

"I'm a new KDE fan. It's all about kpdf, I'm serious kpdf is incredible... "


KPDF uses poppler from freedesktop.org which is shared by Evince currently in GNOME. You might want to try that

Reply Score: 1

RE: KPDF
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 05:33 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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"I'm a new KDE fan. It's all about kpdf, I'm serious kpdf is incredible... "

So whats that got to do with it. As far as corporate adoption of the Linux desktop goes, the suits will be happy that that Acrobat Reader 7.0 is available. Anyway Evince for Gnome is supposed to be excellent too.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 15:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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Ubuntu is king of Distrowatch hits on the distro. That doesn't mean that more people are using it.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:53 UTC in reply to "Novell, do this; LISTEN"
Anonymous Member since:
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First, I prefer Gnome over KDE and most of the people in my LUG do as well ( http://www.pcolalug.org ). But that isn't what this is about...

Not exactly anyway. It sounds as if the author of the linked article is more upset by the move to a Gnome based system. HEAVENS NO!!! Come on, it's not going to mean that you can't use KDE with SuSE. Kubuntu is a perfect example of that. So, I officially throw out the FUD flag and say let's press on.

It's sad that folks are losing their jobs, but Novell is simply trying to make a move to copy what Redhat has so successfully done...make more money. I can't blame them. I think it's a good move because businesses are going to be the big spenders because they want support. Let the community develop the base distro with OpenSUSE and then pick out what works best and provide support for it, a la Fedora/RHES.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Novell, do this; LISTEN
by ma_d on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:03 UTC in reply to "Novell, do this; LISTEN"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

That really doesn't matter. They're not looking to sop up the existing market, they want to expand the market (that's where the money is, if it exists). The people who aren't on Linux now don't know what KDE and Gnome are, and they're not gonna care for quite a while after they start using one.

Reply Score: 1

Intresting quote
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:48 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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"As a consequence of their layoffs, Novell is also laying off one KDE core developer employed by SUSE. But other areas will suffer even more. The entire Evolution development team (mostly based in India) seems to be dissolved, with only one maintainer left to keep the product breathing (after all, there are existing Novell customers); Hula development is said to be cut completely; Mono development is also seriously affected; what the future holds for the NLD product remains to be seen.

The GUI requirements needed to satisfy a non-command line interface for the remaining Novell server product line will apparently be GNOME only."

Very mixed signals coming from Novell.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Intresting quote
by renox on Sat 5th Nov 2005 10:07 UTC in reply to "Intresting quote"
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

Not sure: apparently they bank on KDE on the desktop OpenSUSE line (so they have layed off all the Evolution, HULA, Mono teams) and will be GNOME-only for their servers NLD product (Evolution, HULA doesn't matter on the server and Mono is unproven so..).

The confusing part is that they bank on KDE on the client and on GNOME of the server, which is weird..
Apart from this I'm not sure that the layoff are that inconsistent, ok they layed off *one* KDE core developper but one doesn't make a trend.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Intresting quote
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Intresting quote"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

and will be GNOME-only for their servers NLD product (Evolution, HULA doesn't matter on the server and Mono is unproven so..).

It's simply not possible to do that. Their existing server line and tools are all written for KDE, such as YaST. It would take them years to rearchitect it. Also, it looks as if most of the Gnome people and certainly Evolution people, as well as Mono, have gone. They're not exactly going to have much to run on this desktop.

Don't pay any attention to the eWeek article. It was quoted from a former Director of Marketing for Ximian, and it's full of crap. This guy has no idea what's going on in Novell's core products. You also notice he made no statement about a switch to Gnome - it was simply implied in the article. I'm afraid that guy is full of it.

The confusing part is that they bank on KDE on the client and on GNOME of the server, which is weird..

You would have though it was the other way around, but hey, this is Novell!

Reply Score: 1

v paranoya
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:55 UTC
v Novell
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 22:58 UTC
v ...
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:03 UTC
RE: ...
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:04 UTC in reply to "..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Your sentences don't make any sense to me.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: ...
by CrimsonScythe on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:18 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

Being that his english isn't very good, I'll translate. He's trying to say this:

"I can't find a better way to complain about trolling than to troll myself."

Reply Score: 0

v RE[3]: ...
by Mitarai on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: ..."
RE[4]: ...
by CrimsonScythe on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: ..."
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

And the opposite can easily be said. The fact is that any KDE thread here is filled with GNOME trolls and any GNOME thread is filled with KDE trolls. Arguing about whose trolls are the worst is rather pointless.

But then again, you're just showing my point with your "KDE users whine to [sic] much" trolling. Also, looking at your posting history I see nothing but anti-KDE/Qt troll posts.

Reply Score: 2

v RE[5]: ...
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: ..."
RE[6]: ...
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ..."
Anonymous Member since:
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you forgot to login, Mitarai ;)
so, the Anonymous on the first page it was you, hm?
and you replied to yourself saying "i think he's right" ;)
oh, please, GET A LIFE

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: ...
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:09 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Because iI in another PC now, geez, these paranoia.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: ...
by CrimsonScythe on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:13 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: ..."
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

I was actualy talking to the person I replied to, but I must say I found your original post to be blatant flame-bait.

In any case, I really REALLY don't want you to "probe me wrong" ;-) (I know you meant "prove", but the it sounded more like what happens during alien obductions.)

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: ...
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:17 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: ..."
Anonymous Member since:
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Right now I have no excitement about using KDE 3.x, maybe with KDE 4, who knows. but meanwhile, I'll stick to GNOME or maybe I'll be using XFCE, ain't free Software awesome?

Reply Score: 0

Let's face it
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:03 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linux isn't ready for the desktop.

That's why the *major* vendors, RedHat and Novell (both of which are responsible to shareholders instead of financed by a well-meaning millionare as Ubuntu is) have essentially replaced their commercial desktop distribution with noncommercial versions (Fedora, OpenSuse). This transition *was made* on RedHat's part and *is being made* on Suse's part because desktop Linux is not currently--and has no realistic prospect of becoming--commercially viable.

I'm sure this will be hard for the zealots among you to swallow, but it's the ugly truth.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Let's face it
by Nex6 on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:12 UTC in reply to "Let's face it"
Nex6 Member since:
2005-07-06

sad but true.

OSX may have a very small chance, but thats about it.

-Nex6

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: Let's face it
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Let's face it"
RE[3]: Let's face it
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Let's face it"
Anonymous Member since:
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Ha, pure lies and paranoia of a troll.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Let's face it
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Let's face it"
Anonymous Member since:
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Both you two are so far off base it's not even funny. You can't compare commercial viability with technical readiness. And technically, Linux IS ready for the desktop. I know, I use it as my primary desktop at home, and have for over a year. So quit spouting FUD, and go use Windows if you're so unhappy with KDE or Gnome.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Let's face it
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 07:16 UTC in reply to "Let's face it"
Anonymous Member since:
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Linux isn't ready for the desktop.

Now, stop the trolling *right there*.

Should I say Windows is not ready for desktop because it doesn't fill my needs (Unix- platform, tightly integrated remote filesystem support in KDE, missing awesome apps like Quanta+, *great* development tools which are open source, badly designed gui (really Microsoft, copy OS X for real already, your UI simply fcking sucks) ? That crap simply doesn't work on my *desktop*. So it must suck like hell, right?

Linux either does the job for your needs, or it does not. Same stands for every other operating system in the world. Saying "this isn't ready for X" is plainly stupid trolling.

So maybe I should troll too:

Windows is not ready for anything. Let's face it. And don't you windows zealots throw your stupid zealotry answers on me. Because You're wrong, because *i* say so. OS X beats both craps anyway.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Let's face it
by Lumbergh on Sat 5th Nov 2005 08:14 UTC in reply to "Let's face it"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

It's not that Linux "isn't ready" for the desktop. It's just that there's no market for it. Novell is just accepting the cold reality that the server is where it's at and the best that they can hope for is others to continue the desktop work, write some gui tools for sys admins, and hope that something better comes along in 5-10 years.

Now to put a positive spin on this, I believe this gives alternative desktops (not Gnome or KDE) a chance to come out of the shadows. The mozilla python bindings are coming right along. I think there's an opportunity there for a more net-centric desktop. Komodo (www.komodoware.com) is doing some interesting things based on Mono and a new toolkit loosely based off of PDF.

Many non-fanboys who have used Linux for years realized that linux on the desktop was fighting an uphill battle on the desktop, and that's fine because we don't care. Many people would rather just use OSX for a unix desktop or windows for the desktop and keep linux on the server where it really shines.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Let's face it
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:19 UTC in reply to "Let's face it"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Linux isn't ready for the desktop."

Yeah Right, and I'm using something that isn't ready for the desktop? Linux is my main desktop system, I even don't have Windows installed on my system for long long time. And you come to tell me that I'm missing something Winodws have? Come on Windows users on the desktop and much more on the server side are missing lots of stuff Linux and *BSD have long time ago. So is windows that isn't ready for the desktop. Is so easy to have all the boxes in the world preinstalled with some stupid OS and now everybody uses it but, because the see is complete? or because they don't know about nothing else? Windows is just a joke that got preinstalled on everyones pc.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Let's face it
by Midnightbrewer on Sat 5th Nov 2005 21:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Let's face it"
Midnightbrewer Member since:
2005-08-02

Linux may be ready for *your* desktop, but not for everybody else's. Until companies can sell Linux as a viable home-user solution and make their money back, they won't consider it to be ready for "the desktop." The very things that make you love Linux - free, open-source software that has a world-wide community supporting and developing it - are those things that should keep it from dying anytime soon.

In the meantime, it is still not a mainstream product. Your typical user expects to be able to go to their local computer store and be able to buy the latest game for their kids without somebody telling them that they can't run it on Linux. My mother does not want to have to go on a developer's mailing list to ask for help on her web browser and get told to "RTFA" (she wouldn't know what that meant, and if she found out, she'd be pretty damned pissed.)

People who think their choice of operating system is a reflection of their personality are not exactly considered mainstream. Linux isn't just about an OS, it's about a culture. There's no need to feel defensive about it.

Reply Score: 1

Hope this is not as sad as it sounds
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:05 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Like the guy who wrote the article, SUSE was "my distro" for several years and I was rooting for it for a long, long time. Earlier this year I started to get a bad feeling about what was coming down the pike at Novell and switched to Debian. Even though I don't use SUSE anymore, I am really really sorry to hear this news, if it is true.

I'm also pretty darn angry at the extent to which Novell and a bunch of venture capitalists seem to have hashed things up. Some of us wondered a couple of years ago why SUSE had to be torn out of its happy European roots - where it was easily the king of distros - and transplanted to a dodgy US company with a poor track record. I guess a bunch of cynical bankers is the reason.

Now, if this news is true, it looks as if some of the shareholders are taking over Novell on the qt and are running it for whatever cash they can extract. They couldn't care less about Linux, I suspect. They just want the money. It's like watching a baboon take a hammer to a beautiful diamond.

Reply Score: 5

Anonymous Member since:
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I'm also pretty darn angry at the extent to which Novell and a bunch of venture capitalists seem to have hashed things up. Some of us wondered a couple of years ago why SUSE had to be torn out of its happy European roots - where it was easily the king of distros - and transplanted to a dodgy US company with a poor track record. I guess a bunch of cynical bankers is the reason.

---------------

Simple answer...money was offered, and money was accepted. SUSE is not a religion, it's a collection of software. If the owners felt the need to sell it, then this was their decision. Why do people feel so emotional about stupid software? Use something else. For gods sakes, it's just Linux. Go on to the next version. No big deal. Plenty of choices left. Maybe you will find versions that are much better.

Reply Score: 0

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Simple answer...money was offered, and money was accepted. SUSE is not a religion, it's a collection of software. If the owners felt the need to sell it, then this was their decision.

It was a very fatal mistake. Suse could have kept their focus, expanded, probably taken some of Novell's market share and bought them out by now.

Reply Score: 1

Not an accurate state of affairs
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The article in question doesn't present a completely accurate picture of what's going on at N. The Hula team hasn't been "completely cut" by any means; I believe they may have lost a developer, I don't think mono lost many either.

I don't know where the Bangalore thing came from, so I don't know whether or not it's true - if it is, it's very sad; Evo is a great product. It's also a shame one of the key Moz XForms developers has gone too. But, we're still talking small numbers, compared to the 600-or-so who apparently lost their jobs.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Right, and now that you mention it, maybe the values for SUSE ain't true either. Maybe the article on linuxtoday is a well set propaganda machinery trying to kill off KDE and SUSE in favor for GNOME. Who know's the world is full of dirt and full of freaks.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Before calling someone a troll why don't you f--king go and read this ?

http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2005-11-04-018-26-OP-SS-...

Maybe that guy was just upset for losing his job, it's understandable in these hard days.

Reply Score: 0

raver31 Member since:
2005-07-06

Linux Today is not responsible for the content of the message below.
Marcus Meissner - Subject: Misleading report ( Nov 4, 2005, 20:20:45 )
Just a reassurance from a Novell/SUSE employee.
The reporter is misinformed and his post wrong.
Novell will still deliver Desktop products, both
enterprise (NLD) and retail (openSUSE / SUSE Linux).
Ciao, Marcus

Reply Score: 1

Evolution
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Evolution is a big thing for Linux in the enterprise enviroment..
Evolution must survive whitout novell!

I really love novell as an consultant working with the netware platform from 3.x to 5.x

But Novell should have gone with BSD and not fall
with the "trend" of Linux.
Then Novell could have replaced netware with a rock solid version of BSD..

Reply Score: 1

RE: Evolution
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:11 UTC in reply to " Evolution"
Anonymous Member since:
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You are 100% right.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Evolution
by Temcat on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:26 UTC in reply to " Evolution"
Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

But Novell should have gone with BSD and not fall
with the "trend" of Linux.
Then Novell could have replaced netware with a rock solid version of BSD..


And that would change what? Solidity of some kernel is not relevant here at all...

Reply Score: 2

SuSe not so slick
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:19 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Given the advances of Fedora and Ubuntu, SuSe just dosn't have the same sort of quality and reliability any more. I think Novell has realized this and is diverting resources to more Linux generic applications, or their own software stacks.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: SuSe not so slick
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:33 UTC in reply to "SuSe not so slick"
Will Anyone P-a-y For Desktop Linux?
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The usual reason a business slashes a product line is because it is losing money on it. Since no one has ever made money selling desktop Linux,there's little reason to believe Novell could be more fortunate.

In the end, the question is not "Is Linux ready for the desktop?" The question is this: "Is Anyone Ready To Pay For Linux on the Desktop?"

Reply Score: 2

big companies buying everything...
by HelloWorld82 on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:25 UTC
HelloWorld82
Member since:
2005-08-27

That is so sad for suse.
I like their distribution. And I felt bad then novell bought suse, but everyone seems to be happy about it.

Reply Score: 1

gnome has won
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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i feel sorry for kde users but now is official
Gnome will be the true linux desktop.
LSB is with GNOME
IBM is with GNOME
HP is with GNOME
Novell is with GNOME
RedHat is with GNOME
Ubuntu is with GNOME

Reply Score: 1

v RE: gnome has won
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:34 UTC in reply to "gnome has won"
RE[2]: gnome has won
by dukeinlondon on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:17 UTC in reply to "RE: gnome has won"
dukeinlondon Member since:
2005-07-06

And 90% of the world's desktops run windows. Mediocrity is good at getting backers.

But note that outside of ubuntu, none of gnome backers feel its ready for the desktop. With friends like that who needs OSX and Vista ?

Edited 2005-11-05 00:21

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: gnome has won
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE: gnome has won"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

"
LSB is with GNOME
IBM is with GNOME
HP is with GNOME
Novell is with GNOME
RedHat is with GNOME
Ubuntu is with GNOME"

Sun, Adobe, the list goes on and on.


Even if they were, (which they aren't), unfortunately they've all still advanced as far as an asthmatic ant with some very heavy shopping.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: gnome has won
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: gnome has won"
Anonymous Member since:
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segedunum bashing GNOME, how new.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: gnome has won
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:35 UTC in reply to "gnome has won"
RE: gnome has won
by historyb on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:38 UTC in reply to "gnome has won"
historyb Member since:
2005-07-06

Distros that matter don't use Gnome.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: gnome has won
by Yuske on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:41 UTC in reply to "RE: gnome has won"
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

Make your list.

Edited 2005-11-05 17:41

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: gnome has won
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 18:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: gnome has won"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Mepis

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: gnome has won
by carbon-12 on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:58 UTC in reply to "RE: gnome has won"
carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

"Distros that matter don't use Gnome."

You mean like Red Hat which accounts for more than 70% of the global commerical Linux sales?

Lets see, KDE hmmm....

Linspire - Has never made a profit
Mandriva - Had to file for bankruptcy
SUSE - In the last 3 years, has lost 5% commerical Linux marketshare.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: gnome has won
by segedunum on Sun 6th Nov 2005 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: gnome has won"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You mean like Red Hat which accounts for more than 70% of the global commerical Linux sales?

Lets see, KDE hmmm....


It hasn't made Gnome any more popular, which incidentally, is why everyone is arguing about it with Novell ;-).

Reply Score: 1

this article is just plain false
by doug on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:33 UTC
doug
Member since:
2005-07-07

That guy must have watched Chicken Little today. The sky isn't falling. Novell hasn't fired everyone working on Mono like this guy says. Suse isn't going away. It's filled with inaccuracies, see some of the comments there for corrections.

Reply Score: 3

Anonymous
Member since:
---

Quote from this comment:

http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2005-11-04-018-26-OP-SS-...

"Just a reassurance from a Novell/SUSE employee. The reporter is misinformed and his post wrong. Novell will still deliver Desktop products, both enterprise (NLD) and retail (openSUSE / SUSE Linux)."

Reply Score: 0

Silly People
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:45 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Companies don't choose GNOME because of an alleged technical superiority, the LGPL is simply friendly to their needs. End of discussion.

However, KDE has never been dependant on big or small companies (aside from Trolltech). Nothing has changed.

So what makes you people think it's going anywhere? Honestly. It's already common knowledge a lot more distributions default to GNOME rather than KDE. Yet if you look around for user polls etc. KDE is generally ranked as #1. Not that GNOME isn't sometimes too.


Companies betting on a desktop environment purely because of licencing issues could prove disastorous in the future.

Reply Score: 0

so much nonsense in the article
by Anonymous on Fri 4th Nov 2005 23:48 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Novell as public corporations must protect the investment of the shareholders, that is their primary responsibility. They lost significant amount of money and they needed to cut on their expenses. The author makes a big deal about the cuts but if you look at the Linux areas they cut they are no really strategic nor significant:
1. Mono - in the Linux world there is significant resistance to Mono as a clone to MS technologies. MS will always keep Mono developres chasing their product.
2. Evolution - this application is quite mature. How much is left to do that cannot be done by RedHat, Mandriva and Ubuntu.
3. KDE - There are plenty of other developers from the other distros working on KDE. They can still incorporate the work of KDE developers into SUSE.

The author quite explicitly states that he is a KDE person. in my opinios that is the area he seems to be most worried about. Even though I use KDE most of the time, I also use GNOME and I find it perfectly competent. Reading about KDE 4 and what is being discussed about Gnome3 it appears the latest will leapfrog teh former into a new approach to desktop GUI as opposed to KDE's approach, which is a bit too close to Windows XP. The spectacular success of Ubuntu shows that there is plenty of acceptance for Gnome (and before I get flamed, I use KDE 95% of the time)

Reply Score: 0

Ronald Vos
Member since:
2005-07-06

Why?

The article is basically: "Why are they slashing Linux jobs too? Don't they know Linux = insta profit?". Quite foolish to be surprised at seeing jobs being slashed in all parts of a company, especially a part that's hardly profitable and which is getting money thrown at (almost literally) by Novell.

Reply Score: 2

SuSE...
by Saem on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:05 UTC
Saem
Member since:
2005-07-06

was doing fine on it's own, really it doesn't need novell to screw it up, which seems to be happening.

BTW, it was doing fine by being a KDE desktop, heck until recently they didn't barely kept up with GNOME.

Reply Score: 2

SUSE is good...
by Manuma on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:13 UTC
Manuma
Member since:
2005-07-28

I think SUSE made a couple of mistake, first, the noying FTP installation, the fact that it didn't come with a single cd like Ubuntu/Kubuntu, etc.

I really never tried SUSE, but I think it was the santuary of a KDE user.

Reply Score: 1

Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

What is sad, is that people believe this. As a novell employee who IS ON THE HULA DEVELOPMENT TEAM, I can tell you that this author is mistaken. We lost 1 member of the hula dev team to get another.

This author is very disgruntled because Novell laid off a KDE developer so they can focus more on gnome development. Surprise surprise, if you google for "Kurt Pfeifle" you will notice that he is a kde evangelist.

It is a sad day when Open Source Developers resort to namecalling and FUD because they aren't happy. It is a sad day indeed.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:20 UTC in reply to "Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
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Shame on him, he was lying.

Go you figure.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:22 UTC in reply to "Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Kurt wrote his name, we all know that he's a kde developer (in fact, he wrote it in the article!). What's your name, Mr. Anonymous? Why should I believe to Anonymous (IP: 12.222.183.---) and not to Kurt?

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
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The question is? where did Kurt got that information from?

He didn't mention any sources or provide any link and that is FUD.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
---

What made you think that Kurt lived under a glass bell? Maybe he talked with other fellow kde developers, who happens to be Novell employees? Maybe he's right? Maybe he said a bunch of lies? At least he put his name.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
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wow, he put his name, that makes him less jerk, sure.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 03:30 UTC in reply to "Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
---

'Surprise surprise, if you google for "Kurt Pfeifle" you will notice that he is a kde evangelist'
-----
You are commenting without having read Kurt's article. If you had, you'd know he is a "KDE contributor" without need for googling. Because he says so. Very revealing about your attitude indeed.

I tell you a secret: I did some googling too. I googled for "Anonymous" and found "asshole". While googling for "asshole" gave hits on "Anonyomous". Draw your conclusions.

Welcome to The Club :-P

Reply Score: 0

RE: Lies, all lies
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 15:30 UTC in reply to "Lies, all lies"
Anonymous Member since:
---

This author is very disgruntled because Novell laid off a KDE developer so they can focus more on gnome development. Surprise surprise, if you google for "Kurt Pfeifle" you will notice that he is a kde evangelist.

I fail to see the advantage he draws from saying that Gnome projects got cut too. Wouldn't it make more sense to blow the KDE cuts out of proportion and question whether it was an intelligent decision to let a bankrupt Linux company (Ximian) more or less take over a profitable one (SuSE) in the first place?

Also, you did more namecalling in your short reply (posted from an anonymous account making claims that can't be verified) than the author in the whole article (where he btw. clearly states who he is).

Reply Score: 0

RE: Lies, all lies
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:02 UTC in reply to "Lies, all lies"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

As a novell employee who IS ON THE HULA DEVELOPMENT TEAM, I can tell you that this author is mistaken.

Well, you're posting anonymously so there's no way to verify that. All we can gather at the moment is that a lot of people, including many people who've been obliviously hacking away on open source software that makes zero return for Novell, have gone. That most certainly includes Hula.

This author is very disgruntled because Novell laid off a KDE developer so they can focus more on gnome development.

Says who? I hardly call laying off one KDE developer focusing on Gnome, but of course, you'll know all about the ex-Ximian people who come out of the woddwork when these things happen to put their own spin on things ;-).

It is a sad day when Open Source Developers resort to namecalling and FUD because they aren't happy. It is a sad day indeed.

Well I really appreciate you people for being the bigger men here *finger firmly down throat*.

Reply Score: 0

This Was Always Coming
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:24 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

This guy Hovsepian is no mug, and he's no clueless twit like Messman was - let's face it, Messman has been fired effectively.

What will be interesting is how he's laying off people. Unfortunately, laying people off is a fact of life, but how you go about doing it really decides the future of your company. Unfortunately for Hovsepian there is simply no rhyme or reason to the current cuts. It's a random slash. If the people who actually run the business have been fired, and others go with them in sympathy, you can wave goodbye to Novell as a business.

I really don't understand the Gnome server interface thing though. They're going to have to change all their core products, contributions to YaST will effectively stop, and they're going to have to create whole new tools. Considering that they're going to have to maintain low-level software like GTK and other tools themselves, which costs money, it doesn't sound like a sound strategy to me. This isn't a Gnome or KDE fanboy thing - this affects their core products. Basically the stuff that brings in any revenue for the company. If they lose it, they're gone. If they lose their existing customers as a result of jumping any ships midstream then they're history. All they have are existing Netware customers who won't hang around forever to see the train-wreck they're being asked to subscription license to. If they don't like what they see they'll go Microsoft. Who wants that, but who could blame them?

Trust me, if you get layoffs and cuts wrong in a company you might as well not carry on. All too often managers simply do not realise the significance.

Reply Score: 1

Entertaining IRC Log
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

From #hula on irc.freenode.net. I found this conversation amusing:
SEJeff Can anyone elaborate on this? http://linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2005-11-04-018-26-OP-SS-...
SEJeff From that article "Hula development is said to be cut completely"
campd it's wrong
campd hula is alive and well
* gaute_ has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
* campd has changed the topic to: Hula is Alive and Kicking | Using AJAX with Backend clients: http://www.hula-project.org/AJAX_Interface | Installing Mono: http://www.hula-project.org/Installation_Mono
* campd has changed the topic to: Hula is Alive and Kicking | Bring Novell Gossip Elsewhere | Using AJAX with Backend clients: http://www.hula-project.org/AJAX_Interface | Installing Mono: http://www.hula-project.org/Installation_Mono
SEJeff Are you guys going to say anything to the author of that article?
SEJeff like wtf?
campd no
SEJeff He must work for redhat ;)
campd 'cause it's not worth our time
campd no, he just wrote an article based on unfounded rumor
campd it happens all the time

Reply Score: 2

Oh look, I wasn't lying
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Novell agrees with me and says he was wrong:
http://linuxtoday.com/infrastructure/2005110500426NWSSNV

Reply Score: 0

RE: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:40 UTC in reply to "Oh look, I wasn't lying"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Its official, Kurt you are a jerk.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:05 UTC in reply to "Oh look, I wasn't lying"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Trust me, things are that bad. Novell is a company with a lot of overheads that is making no money whatsoever. It's just about breaking even with a declining product base. Personally, I hope it is that bad in many ways because they simply cannot go on as they are. This isn't a game.

"if you have five fingers on your hand, then less than a handful of engineers were laid off at the Nurmberg facility."

No sorry. No business with any scrap of credibility lays off just five or less people. That's a complete lie in itself, and if you lie about layoffs your business is finished as he only seems to mention Nuremburg. These guys really are as clueless as they appear to be.

Kurt appears to have got his information first-hand from people who've been layed off or in the company, as has this guy:

http://www.chipx86.com/blog/archives/000130.html

I know who I'm going to listen to for the moment.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh look, I wasn't lying"
Anonymous Member since:
---

I know who I'm going to listen to for the moment.

The one that makes you feel better of course, not the truth.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Oh look, I wasn't lying"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

The one that makes you feel better of course, not the truth.

Well, that depends on which one it is ;-). At the moment I don't think anyone can feel better. There's a lot of misinformation at the moment, and from what you can gather neither KDE or Gnome at Novell is feeling any good. No Evolution? Does that mean they're not using it? What about the desktop migration? What are they going to use? Changing default desktops? Eh?

Oh, and I wouldn't believe this either:

http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

Mancusi-Ungaro is, or was, Director of Marketing at Ximian:

http://www.linuxforum.dk/2004/program/fredag/greg_mancusi.shtml

We heard lots of similar things when Suse was first taken over:

Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line.

You notice he doesn't make that statement himself, a well worn tactic. You can always say you were misquoted and it was journalistic speculation ;-). There is no SLES anymore. SLES 9 was the last of the Suse line, and it is KDE based. OES is the first of the Novell line, and it is KDE based. The way many talked you would think that Gnome was the default on the NLD. I don't see what difference that is going to make. Looks like some people are mouthing off for their own advantage again.

Not that it makes any difference of course. KDE, Gnome, no desktop, Netware, Linux, Netware running in Linux - Novell are still a totally rudderless company. Their managers really are that idiotic, and they have no handle over what goes on.

Should be interesting to sit back and see what happens over the next couple of months or so so I'd save your keyboard and observe Novell do their usual cock up act. Enjoy.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh look, I wasn't lying"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Btw, that blod was in another context, I read it in the morning.

Troll

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh look, I wasn't lying"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Btw, that blog was in another context, I read it in the morning.

Troll

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Oh look, I wasn't lying
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Oh look, I wasn't lying"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Btw, that blog was in another context

No it wasn't.

I read it in the morning.

Good for you.

Reply Score: 1

Seems like a good thing to me
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Evolution - I seriously think this is the only email client that feels cheaper than Outlook Express. This became a solution deadend when Thunderbird entered its early, early beta.
Hula - This project was dead the second the Mozilla foundation said it will do a calendaring project. On one side, you have Firefox and Thunderbird. On the otherside, you have Evolution. Any questions?
Mono - Why the hell are Linux people wasting resources even developing this? Is it legal? Who knows. Is it safe for an enterprise to deploy? Who knows. When Java starts completely dominating the marketplace
(including the Windows marketshare) Microsoft will naturally have to port .Net to Linux and Unix or suffer complete loss. Linux people don't have to waste their time doing this for Microsoft for free. If you look around, it's apparent that noone is stupid enough to develop any real .Net applications. All you see are PHP-like web sites and small internal applications. Instead everyone is choosing Java for the heavy retail based applications because they know they will be able to port to another platform. Now why would a large company, such as Adobe, create a new application and base it on .Net and lock themselves out of the Linux and MacOS X space? If people really wanted to be productive, they should have helped the GCJ and PHP project.

The way I see it, this was the best thing Novell/SuSE could have done. Now if they really want to get serious, they need to slowly drop YAST support and move towards a real solution.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Seems like a good thing to me
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 00:58 UTC in reply to "Seems like a good thing to me"
Anonymous Member since:
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Are you Kurt's brother?

Reply Score: 0

RE: Seems like a good thing to me
by somebody on Sat 5th Nov 2005 01:39 UTC in reply to "Seems like a good thing to me"
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

My opinions
Evolution - rocks, TB, well at least until no Evolution for Windows. TB just lacks too much. I work a lot with PR agencies and I can tell you that I don't have the heart to enforce TB over Outlook. Just as TB has some features, Outlook has some other too (mostly corporate which lack in TB. Calendaring is the least of the TB problems for corporate use). And believe me, when Evo comes I won't have a bad feeling anymore.

Comparing the Hula and Sunbird? Do you actualy compare car and a plane too? Hula is web interface, Sunbird is standalone software.

Mono - Why the hell are Linux people wasting resources even developing this? Is it legal? Who knows. Is it safe for an enterprise to deploy? Who knows. When Java starts completely dominating the marketplace (including the Windows marketshare) Microsoft will naturally have to port .Net to Linux and Unix or suffer complete loss. Linux people don't have to waste their time doing this for Microsoft for free. If you look around, it's apparent that noone is stupid enough to develop any real .Net applications. All you see are PHP-like web sites and small internal applications. Instead everyone is choosing Java for the heavy retail based applications because they know they will be able to port to another platform. Now why would a large company, such as Adobe, create a new application and base it on .Net and lock themselves out of the Linux and MacOS X space? If people really wanted to be productive, they should have helped the GCJ and PHP project.

Well, all what you've said before this was rubbish, but this is a pure example of stupidity.

1. Mono is atractive to developers that haven't considered coding for Linux. If they do it with Mono they actualy create crossplatform (and with the almost zero effort). This type of coders wouldn't even care about Linux. But since people are greedy and opportunity is there? A lot of projects being developed on .Net are creating Mono ports. Mono probably (and as much unfortunate as it is, personally I don't like that fact) is the biggest push Linux had. MS keeps dominance with Office and IE. MS dominance and lockdown will keep up until developers have to choose which platform they will be writting software for. In 99% they will probably choose commercialy (as in 95 or other?). But what if they write for both? And without any learning curve?
2. Why would Adobe? Well, because Mono exists and it is cross portable. They would just achieve more platforms supported.
3. What do PHP and GCJ have to do with that? Personally, as soon as I see Java being used in some software I avoid that software (and a lot of people beside me). Well, I can't imagine desktop being written in PHP. What about Python? C? C++? Kernel? XOrg? GTK? Gnome? KDE? ...

But at the end. I agree about Novell and best thing that could be done.

Reply Score: 1

v Why I (and companies) prefer GNOME
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 04:33 UTC
Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

This conclusion, however, begs the question "Why don't more people use XFCE"

Because currently it is not user friendly enough. It is, however, headed in right direction - stay tuned for 4.4, and then who knows what's gonna happen ;-)

Reply Score: 1

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I (and my employer) thinks that QT is a horrible toolkit - not least due to it's legal and licensing issues - but mainly because it's god damn ugly.

I'd line yourself up another job then, because you're going to need it.

Reply Score: 1

What's their business again?
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 04:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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So, I guess they're gonna fall back on their highly-successful NetWare business?

Reply Score: 0

Damn Novell!
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 04:59 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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What have they touched that hasn't turned to shit?

I was suspicious of the SUSE acquisition, and now it looks like my fears have come true.

Hopefully, they will sell off the unit before they run it into the ground like they did with all their other products (eg., WordPerfect, NetWare).

Reply Score: 0

Finally realizing...
by rx182 on Sat 5th Nov 2005 05:24 UTC
rx182
Member since:
2005-07-08

I think that Novell finally realized that the Open Source world has not so much to offer in the business world. Yes Linux is everywhere in the industry but is it really profitable for Linux vendors like Novell?

I doubt. They now doubt. Alot of people doubt. Maybe you can make some money with support and hardware (if you're also a hardware vendor) but you will never make more money than the money you will spend on it over a long (read: long) period of time. You have to do it for the love of it, not for the profit. In business, it's not something you can consider. Only individuals can do that.

Anyway, I think this is the beginning of the end. Novell is one big player after all.....

Reply Score: 1

RE: Finally realizing...
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 14:00 UTC in reply to "Finally realizing..."
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I think that Novell finally realized that the Open Source world has not so much to offer in the business world. Yes Linux is everywhere in the industry but is it really profitable for Linux vendors like Novell?

It can be profitable. It's just Novell are a crap company and have no clue where to apply themselves.

I agree that this is the beginning of the end. Unless they get some focus, like what Red Hat have, they can forget it.The warning signs came when a lot of Suse and Novell peple left in the last few months.

Reply Score: 1

Let's go Google Let's go!
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 05:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Forget Novell, Google will do what no one has been able to do until now.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Let's go Google Let's go!
by Soulbender on Sat 5th Nov 2005 07:09 UTC in reply to "Let's go Google Let's go!"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

You need to stop drinking the Google Kool-Aid.

Reply Score: 1

It was pretty good
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 05:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Oh well, i still have my xp & win 98 boxes
fedora core might work for me for a while.

Reply Score: 0

Evolution
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 05:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Does this make sense for anyone? Novell makes GNOME the default desktop for its business desktop and is at the same time as the Novell PR guy confirmed withdrawing the developers from Evolution, the GNOME desktop's central software. "this is a stable, mature product" - may I laugh? I keep reading how buggy it still is. "It also has a lot of community support" - I never considered Evolution a mainly community developed software and don't think that there is a strong non-paid community working on it today.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
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This thread has contained a lot of pathetic whingeing whining and zealotry.

1. Lets get the facts straight with what is happening at Novell before screaming the sky is falling. No one seems to be really sure at the moment.

2. Lets stop the pointless KDE and GNOME zealotry.

I use GNOME, I just happen to have a personal preference for it. I started out on Linux with KDE 1 and I moved to GNOME 1, I have had a long period with XFce 3 as my primary desktop and a period with a combination of XFwm 4, XFsession, Rox and the GNOME panel when the early GNOME 2 releases were not that great. I am currently using GNOME 2.6, so I am far from bleeding edge but it works for me.

I think KDE is a very fine desktop and the the combination of competition and cooperation (via freedesktop.org) serves the community well. I am happy that a variety of desktop environments and window managers is available for Linux. Freedom works.

Reply Score: 0

chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

That was me I forgot to login ;)

Reply Score: 1

v enterprise open source
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 06:06 UTC
Why pay for developers?
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 06:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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We got community!

Novell shouldn't have bought Suse, or Ximian. They should have made agreements with them.

This really is no shock that a company has to sack employees, it happens all the time.

But to the employees who are getting the sack. Be innovative and you might land yourselves positions in interesting companies.

Reply Score: 0

v join the winning side.
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 06:58 UTC
better to move now
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 08:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

or end up dead!

Reply Score: 0

Gnome (and GTK apps) are on a roll
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 09:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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You can smell it on the internet, go on look for your self:

What is KDE talking about? Making KDE4 a total new platform, with new look and feel. But his is like navel-staring The desktop it self isn't that important, its the applications that count. Focussing on the desktop isn't the way forward.

Now look at Gnome/gtk. Are they going to redifine the desktop again? no, they have layed out what direction to take years ago and for the upcoming releases they are not talking about new looks and feel, they have passed that station long ago, wit the HIG. No they are optimizing core libraries, they have build new foundations that are getting integrated in the excisting desktop and none GTK+ application. they are doing a great job, Cairo, GTK+2, Gstreamer, libpoppler, dbus/hal, gecko engine, evolution-data-server are the building blocks and they are getting used all over the place and little by little every Gnome application that counts is starting to integrate these building blocks. What does it mean. It means that the application are starting to get more and more attention and functionality, and you can feel it, GAIM in the next incarnation will be a messenger to watch out for, with SIP and Webcam support and so closing a gap in the desktop. Rhythmbox is coming out of hibration and is implementing all those new core functionality (network sharing music). And for eyecandy, I allready love the standard desktop (with Clearlooks)

Even for the looks, Gnome related developers have started projects to make it uniform for everybody. Gnome isn't about navel-staring but to give Linux the building stones for a complete and integrated desktop.
It is not about assimilating (KDE), but about sharing for everybody.

I use Gentoo-Linux on my computer with gnome/gtk-only desktops, except for OpenOffice and Firefox (which are perfectly accepted and supported by the Gnome-camp) there are no none gtk-application on my desktop, Work related I've to work sometimes on Windows XP and MacOS, especially Mac OS drives me crazy, I find our G5 slow and clumsy, the in and out popping windows are very distracting.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> What is KDE talking about? Making KDE4 a total new platform, with new look and feel.

So is Microsoft. So is GNOME thinking about it (Project Topaz). Maybe not for tomorrow but the day after tomorrow.

Reply Score: 0

There is only one reason..
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 10:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The bottom line. Linux as a desktop is a dicey proposition at best. Not saying that it is not a solid solution, but the market has clearly dictated that Linux as a desktop is a losing proposition for commercial companies.

Reply Score: 0

RE: There is only one reason..
by dagw on Sat 5th Nov 2005 15:45 UTC in reply to "There is only one reason.."
dagw Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, I'd say that this shows that _selling_ linux on the desktop might be a dicey proposition. I know of a number of comercial companies that are happy _using_ linux on the desktop and even delivering solutions based on linux desktops. However all of these companies use a linux distro they can download, distribute and upgrade for free and handle their linux support either in-house or through a local third-party company not connected with the distribution. So linux and linux desktops seem to be making and/or saving companies money, just not the linux distributers.

Reply Score: 1

Fosing on GNOME
by ionlopez on Sat 5th Nov 2005 10:51 UTC
ionlopez
Member since:
2005-11-05

What i get from the article ( http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp )
is that "Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line."
which makes sense considering their effort on improving GNOME´s interface:
http://tango-project.org/Tango_Desktop_Project
http://www.betterdesktop.org/welcome/
http://primates.ximian.com/~glesage/wiki/doku.php?id=
As you can see on the "people" page at tango-project, novell has hired many gnome artists, Garret Lesage, Tigert, Jimmac.
Also they´re porting evolution to windows :
http://tml-blog.blogspot.com/2005/07/evolution-to-win32-porting-sta...
And developing great apps:
http://gnome.org/projects/evolution/
http://beaglewiki.org/Main_Page
http://www.gnome.org/projects/f-spot/
http://banshee-project.org/index.php/Main_Page
Let´s not forget about other technologies like XGL etc.
My point is they´re doing all this enhacementes to gnome it really makes sense to focus on it.
I apologize for grammatical errors.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Fosing on GNOME
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 11:40 UTC in reply to "Fosing on GNOME"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> "Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME
> interface is going to become the default interface on
> both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell
> Linux Desktop line."

Right but there's also written that Evolution, MONO, Hula and a few other GNOME related projects got dropped. I wonder how the one fits the other. Again Novell shows how clueless they are.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Fosing on GNOME
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 15:54 UTC in reply to "Fosing on GNOME"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line."

As I've pointed out, that statement was made by an ex-Ximian/Novell marketing guy (not that they've ever produced any articles like this in the past ;-)) who's department, software and technology has been pretty much wiped out.

My point is they´re doing all this enhacementes to gnome it really makes sense to focus on it.
I apologize for grammatical errors.


They're not focusing on anything. When the dust settles you'll find these people have all gone. Evolution, Mono, Hula - all of them. All that's left are the people who can keep things ticking over should they need them, support etc., and it's not even certain they'll stay. Goodness knows where Novell head from here or what's left.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Fosing on GNOME
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 00:40 UTC in reply to "Fosing on GNOME"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> As you can see on the "people" page at tango-project,
> novell has hired many gnome artists, Garret Lesage, Tigert, Jimmac.

And this week Novell fired at least one of them.

Reply Score: 0

Novell buying SUSE
by ronaldst on Sat 5th Nov 2005 13:51 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

was the biggest mistake Novell did. Taking other companies onto a sinking ship.

Instead of positionning itself as a Server company, Novell has very little in most markets and is quickly becoming irrelevant very fast. Novell software is very rare these days other than it's rebranded Linux stuff.

Buying Ximian was a mistake. Doesn't do squat for them in the server field.
Investing in Mono was also a mistake. Won't get them the lost server market they GAVE to Microsoft.
Evolution? It's not even made for the main market (aka Microsoft Windows).

Reply Score: 2

Time to switch
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 14:19 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Want a first class KDE desktop? Have a look here:
http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php


Ubuntu Conference Affirms Commitment to Kubuntu and KDE
The Ubuntu Below Zero conference is in full momentum this week and Kubuntu has been prominent throughout. In his opening remarks at the start of the conference Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth announced that he was now using Kubuntu on his desktop machine and said he wanted Kubuntu to move to a first class distribution within the Ubuntu community. The large number of Kubuntu users at the conference was evidence as the need for this. Free CDs for Kubuntu through shipit should be available for the next release if the planned Live CD Installer removes the need for a separate install CD.
Kubuntu developer Jonathan Riddell said how pleased he was at the success of Kubuntu, "KDE is a great platform to base our distribution off and we will continue to work closely with KDE developers to make the best operating system available".
Commercial support is available for Kubuntu through Canonical and many of the companies listed on the Ubuntu Marketplace.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Time to switch
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 15:18 UTC in reply to "Time to switch"
Anonymous Member since:
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I am happy to read that the Ubuntu founder Mark Shuttleworth is now using KDE on his Desktop and I think everyone else should be using it as well. Thanks Mark for supporting the KDE movement and the Desktop for Linux.

Reply Score: 0

Novell & SuSE
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 15:56 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I don't see why this has turned into a KDE vs Gnome debate.

Why pay for Linux when it's free?? I switched from SuSE to PCLinuxOS at the beginning of this year after a SuSE update hosed up my install. The free distro's are more cutting edge. SuSE was to locked down and at that point didn't have the community around it like they are trying to with OpenSuSE. I've contributed to the PCLinuxOS guys to help them out and will continue to do so.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Novell & SuSE
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:04 UTC in reply to "Novell & SuSE"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't see why this has turned into a KDE vs Gnome debate.

Because cerain people seek to put their own positive spin on a pretty dire situation.

Reply Score: 1

Leave to OSNEWS to get it wrong.
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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"A source within Novell speculated that these rumors about Novell moving away from the Linux desktop and open-source programs spring from KDE advocates.

"I can understand being upset. For these guys, on both sides, these are their babies. But saying that Novell is killing its Linux desktop because they picked GNOME over KDE is going way too far," he said. "

http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS8616686406.html

Reply Score: 0

Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

an anonymous George from gnomedesktop.org told:

As I've tried to explain to KDE zealots for months, KDE is a dead duck at Novell. There was simply no way that Novell was going to continue to support two desktop code bases... no way at all. It would be madness... KDE only lived as long as it did because of the legacy of SUSE... it was only a matter of time before that legacy (and any KDE-related employees who didn't want to switch) were ousted.

KDE is already the desktop used primarily by one-man-band distros and it was already dying on the vine... this move just finishes the job. So VIVA GNOME! and we can all finally look forward to a single desktop codebase and the growth it will bring in desktop use. It won't kill off minority desktops and those who want to experiment, of course, but it will ensure that mainstream developers have a totally clear target to aim at.

It's been a long time coming (and no doubt KDEers will disagree), but this is very good news... expect more GNOME-related annoucements from other big distros soon.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:25 UTC in reply to "Gnome Users impressions"
RE[2]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
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KDE itself as Desktop is far ahead of GNOME

Care to explaint exactly in what areas is better KDE than GNOME or what have KDE that you can't do with GNOME focused to the enterprice?

Reply Score: 0

v RE[3]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Gnome Users impressions"
RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions
by Yuske on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Gnome Users impressions"
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

a) KDE has the better architecture.
b) KDE is fully object oriented.
c) KDE primarily depends on one language and this language is used throughly in KDE.
d) Most components in KDE can be reused in other applications due to OOP design.
e) KDE offers great applications where you can't find any counterparts for.
f) KDE applications are mostly consistent, they share the same objects and thus the apps looke coherent. Try throwing an eye on this screenshot:


a) KDE has the better architecture.

Based on a propietary toolkit with expensive licenses that simple not feed in, better architecture or not, is not that relevant, not for that GNOME is behind, GTK's architecture is good to, not better that Qt fro the moment but is good and free, I don't see the KDE architecture as an advantage,

b) KDE is fully object oriented.

What would that be an advantage? GNOME can do C++ to you know, even Java, develoepers who use low level prefer C over C++ and there GNOME shines too, I don't see that point as an advantage.

c) KDE primarily depends on one language and this language is used throughly in KDE.

So does GNOME, GNOME is entirely based on C just like KDE is based on C++.

d) Most components in KDE can be reused in other applications due to OOP design.

So does GNOME, like GStreamer, Evolution data Center, Scripting, etc.

e) KDE offers great applications where you can't find any counterparts for.

Yet you did mention any of them, is well know that GNOME aplications are quiet better and popular than with KDE, but since KDE include a bload of unnecesary software as its base then that could be true.

f) KDE applications are mostly consistent, they share the same objects and thus the apps looke coherent. Try throwing an eye on this screenshot:

Same with GNOME, GNOME is even more consistent than KDE, they have rules and HIG, KDE has nothing of it.

the screenshot ain't othing but eye candy, an enterprice desktop should be aimed to productivity not to look nice, and GNOME wins on both sides anyway.

Is well know that KDE looks bloated and inconsistent

Here a funny movie of GNOME and how much the things don't work. This is no manipulated or cheated GNOME. It's GNOME as is from CVS and a stable version. Sure CVS shouldn't be considered stable, but in this case it is since it's based on branched modules (2.12).

http://zerv.internetcafe.nl/~nexu/lol/gnome-the-movie.avi


That movie was made but the number one anti-GNOME troll is that your case?

I could make my own movie making KDE look bad, but of course im not that type of person.

Gnome-Print is not able to print GIF files correctly, nor is it able to deal with postgress saved files (font corruption, corrupt PS files saved).

I never had that problem, but with KDE in the other hand I been never been able to print correctly.

Dia is not only a great an stable application, I've never had a single crash on it, and it is multiplatform, not likde KDE apps. the lack of interaction with Windows is simple a show sttoper.

I didn't see any good advantage of KDE over GNOME in your comments.

Edited 2005-11-05 17:07

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Based on a propietary toolkit with expensive licenses that simple not feed in, better architecture or not, is not that relevant, not for that GNOME is behind, GTK's architecture is good to, not better that Qt fro the moment but is good and free, I don't see the KDE architecture as an advantage,

Bullshit. Qt is gpl as long as your code is the same. I've done very little coding with either of these toolkits, but the examples I've tried for gtk was *horribly* messy.


b) KDE is fully object oriented.

What would that be an advantage? GNOME can do C++ to you know, even Java, develoepers who use low level prefer C over C++ and there GNOME shines too, I don't see that point as an advantage.


It's because of code re-useablility silly. Have you never wondered why the kdeapplications like all the stuff in "kdenetwork" as well as amarok is such small downloads if you take the capablilities they contain into account? Or how kontact, kmail and other different applications are capable of such tight integration?

So does GNOME, like GStreamer, Evolution data Center, Scripting, etc.

So, how do I get

[/i]Yet you did mention any of them, is well know that GNOME aplications are quiet better and popular than with KDE, but since KDE include a bload of unnecesary software as its base then that could be true.[/i]

Lol. What gnome applications? ;) Firefox? Nope. Openoffice? Nope. The gimp? Nope. Sylpheed or gvim then? Nope, nope. In other words you must be refering to the steamin pos that makes up evolution, and a handfull of other, rarely used and in several cases pretty borken applications like evince.


Same with GNOME, GNOME is even more consistent than KDE, they have ruleas and HIG, KDE has nothing of it.

Clever. Using your weakness as an argument to claim superiority, I give you that. Unfortunately for you, it's getting old, and not getting any truer with time.. Gnome has a HIG because it needs it.. qt deals automatically with quite a lot of what the programmer has to fiddle with manually in gtk.

the screenshot ain't othing but eye candy, an enterprice desktop should be aimed to productivity not to look nice, and GNOME wins on goth sides anyway.

So pathetic.. in case you get confronted with symptoms of problems, dismiss them...

That movie was made but the number one anti-GNOME troll is that your case?

Oh, anyone illustrating problems with gnome are trolls..? I should have known. Anyone you are unable to meet fact to fact, is simply a troll. How convenient...

I never had that problem, but with KDE in the other hand I been never been able to print correctly.

Sorry to hear that. However, I'm afraid that says more about you than kde.

[i]I didn't see any good advantage of KDE over GNOME in your comments.[i]

You tell me about good substitutes for apps like kdevelop, amarok, kmail, kpdf, kopete, k3b that doesn't totally suck. And don't bother with anjuta, rhythmbox, evolution, evince or gaim. They are either not really gnome applications, or they completely suck in some respect, like printing from evince being completely broken unless you print the entire document or gaim, wich sucks so bad as an irc-client that I fail to find words to describe it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Gnome Users impressions
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Based on a propietary toolkit with expensive licenses that simple not feed in

It's not a proprietary toolkit, and licenses matter not to users - they want something that works. The license is purely a developer issue, and for the quality you get, especially in KDE, it's the right choice.

Stick the license issue up your backside please, because it is most certainly not free for Novell to employ legions of open source hackers working on lowlevel Gnome, GTK and Mono stuff and to give it away for free. Compare the price of all that and tell me if the license 'issue' is still a problem to Novell? That's why a lot of these people have gone. Novell simply cannot afford to do that.

Whenever a coherent answer is given the word license inevitably comes into it. Users don't care about it, OK?

What would that be an advantage? GNOME can do C++ to you know, even Java, develoepers who use low level prefer C over C++ and there GNOME shines too

It's not coherent throughout the desktop, and it doesn't make for easy reuse or communication between applications.

So does GNOME, GNOME is entirely based on C just like KDE is based on C++.

Correction - the same technology and infrastructure is used throughout the KDE desktop.

GNOME aplications are quiet better and popular than with KDE, but since KDE include a bload of unnecesary software as its base then that could be true.

Opinion piece. Application infrastructure matters - KDE has it, Gnome doesn't.

Same with GNOME, GNOME is even more consistent than KDE, they have rules and HIG, KDE has nothing of it.

Virtually no Gnome or GTK apps are fully HIG compliant, and it doesn't get around the fact that every KDE application is able to inherit from a base infrastructure like every other sane desktop has been doing for decades. This makes all KDE apps consistent.

the screenshot ain't othing but eye candy, an enterprice desktop should be aimed to productivity not to look nice, and GNOME wins on both sides anyway.

An enterprise desktop needs application infrastructure. Gnome fails - period.

Is well know that KDE looks bloated and inconsistent

Opinion piece.

I never had that problem, but with KDE in the other hand I been never been able to print correctly.

Whatever.

Dia is not only a great an stable application, I've never had a single crash on it, and it is multiplatform, not likde KDE apps.

Dia is woefully inadequate for peoples' general needs, and isn't particularly stable. I'd rather have an application integrated well into a desktop. The cross-platform crap usually comes up again.

To make good apps you need platform infrastructure. Because of that KDE has great apps, they have great features, they're easy and cheap to maintain in a community and no company like Novell or Red Hat needs to employ huge legions of programmers to bang away at them on maintenance all day long. What was that about the cost of Qt licenses again?

I didn't see any good advantage of KDE over GNOME in your comments.

Then you're not looking hard enough. Sorry.

I know many Gnome people, even at Novell, want to try and strong-arm Gnome as a standard in many places because they can't do it any other way and they certainly can't do it on quality. KDE is the most popular open source desktop there is, and when I've been to any Novell event it is the desktop most non-IT employees have chosen and used when using Linux.

You simply can't fake any of that I'm afraid otherwise Novell (and others) will be canning their desktop Linux move and the company will crawl, humiliatingly and very expensively, back to Windows.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 20:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> What would that be an advantage? GNOME can do C++ to
> you know, even Java, develoepers who use low level
> prefer C over C++ and there GNOME shines too, I don't
> see that point as an advantage.

The problem here is, that you CAN use the OO stuff from GNOME but you must not. That's why so many GNOME applications look, behave and operate totally differently - GUI wise. A full OO development doesn't allow you to trash shit together.

> So does GNOME, GNOME is entirely based on C just like
> KDE is based on C++.

That's not true. GNOME is based on C, C++, PERL and PYTHON stuff at the current moment and god knows when MONO enters the show.

> Same with GNOME, GNOME is even more consistent than
> KDE, they have rules and HIG, KDE has nothing of it.
>
> The screenshot ain't nothing but eye candy, an
> enterprice desktop should be aimed to productivity
> not to look nice, and GNOME wins on both sides
> anyway.

You are contradicting in your two sentences. You say that GNOME is consistent and has the hig and in the next sentence you agree that the apps don't need to look good but should work to be productive.

But:

a) GNOME is not consistent as you can see in the Screenshot.
b) The GNOME applications are not good enough for any productive use.
c) The problems I have described do have matching bugnumbers on bgo that noone gives a flying f--k for.

> That movie was made but the number one anti-GNOME
> troll is that your case ?

That movie was done by me actually and I wonder how you can call me an anti-GNOME troll while I have contributed basicly more than you for GNOME in the past years. The problem is just pure resignation and frustration that I returned from all of it. Maybe the movie might be some sort of direct attack but then it reflects the GNOME that I was using that time. Some of the bugs has been fixed but others still exists and many new ones have come too. If I was asked to redo this movie again it would show more horrible than the last one I made public.

> I never had that problem, but with KDE in the other
> hand I been never been able to print correctly.

As I said, valid bugreports about GNOME printing issues exists and no one cares for them. I find this quite disgusting for a desktop that claims itself to be ready for the corporate desktop.

> Dia is not only a great an stable application, I've
> never had a single crash on it.

Maybe you start using it and not just talk about it. I tried using it because I had no other choice and it turned out to be a big ugly hack. I really wonder why you can't accept valid and trueful comments and criticism. This is not bashing or something it's from my daily experience that I happen to have made over the past 6 years using and contributing to GNOME. It was never good enough to be useful for anything. Maybe for watching pron and browse some stuff but not for productive use.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions
by anda_skoa on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:33 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Gnome Users impressions"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

b) KDE is fully object oriented

Actually GNOME is as well.

One of its very base libraries, glib, contains lots of OOP code, for example glist

OOP is a concept that can be used even in languages that do not support OOP features themselves.
It just means you have to provide your own means for that, but it is often still a good choice to use.

Especially when modelling GUI objects, etc

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 03:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
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really true

that why kde have about 70% of the linux desktop market... every years gnome lost market share...

funny to listen newbie said kde is dead...

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
---

People keep saying that "KDE is far ahead of gnome" but prove it!, both desktops are so different in design. I think why people say this is that KDE follows Windows so much, it's filemanager and layout are like Windows(I like KDE better)

There is alot of fundimental usability flaws in Windows/KDE but people seem to think it's the norm. Spatial nautilus is ether you like it or hate it, I love it but it's a totally different aproach to any other DE. Me my mum and uncle use GNOME and find it easy to do day to day tasks, you simply cannot say otherwise but thats the same for KDE as well.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Gnome Users impressions
by jbauer on Sun 6th Nov 2005 01:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Gnome Users impressions"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

People keep saying that "KDE is far ahead of gnome" but prove it!, both desktops are so different in design. I think why people say this is that KDE follows Windows so much, it's filemanager and layout are like Windows(I like KDE better)

Ok. Here's proof:

Amarok
K3b
Krusader
Quanta
Kile
Kontact
digiKam
Konqueror
Kdevelop
Kate
KXML Editor
YaKuake

... and that's without having to think much.

Could you please point out Gnome counterparts? Please avoid apps that just use GTK and are not real Gnome applications, such as Gimp or Graveman.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 02:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Let me add:

Kstars,
Kivio,
Kpresenter,
Kturtle,
Umbrello,
KTechlab,
Task Juggler,
Konversation

... and that's without having to think much.

Reply Score: 0

Ok my 2 cents.
by Edward on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:43 UTC
Edward
Member since:
2005-09-17

1. I use KDE, have since SuSE home 8.0, as far as the devs. & users not being mature. Who cares KDE is still great.

2. Guess my next distro won't be SuSE.

3. What about standerds, each distro has its own way of doing the same thing.

4. There are tons of distros, to many I think.

5. Like it or not user friendly distros need a click & install system like windows. Sorry, but windows is the only OS with 1 that I have used like that.

6. For linux users to help, and get over thier "I am great cause I use linux aditude", all windows users are not dumb, they just use window.

Reply Score: 1

wtf are you doing Novell?
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:47 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

this is an incredibly retarded thing to do.

Reply Score: 0

Gnomedesktop cancel the article
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 16:56 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Apparently Gnomedesktop has cancelled the article about
Novell who trash out kde desktop.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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Even them don't trust the Ximian PR guy. Funny!

Reply Score: 0

Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

They prolly canceled to avoid all the zealots to make it a circus, is not new, even kde.org has done it.

Edited 2005-11-05 17:10

Reply Score: 1

Good move Novell
by carbon-12 on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:09 UTC
carbon-12
Member since:
2005-07-06

Straight from a Novell Employee:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line.

[...]

It makes no sense to support two desktops that do the same thing when you're trying to cut costs."

Exactly! They finally understand.

Edited 2005-11-05 17:10

Reply Score: 1

RE: Good move Novell
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:32 UTC in reply to "Good move Novell"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Straight from a Novell Employee:
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1882118,00.asp

"Novell is making one large strategic change. The GNOME interface is going to become the default interface on both the SLES (SuSE Linux Enterprise Server) and Novell Linux Desktop line.


Good God, do you not read comments around here? Firstly, the guy in that article is an ex-Ximian Director of Marketing trying to put a positive spin on what's happened.

Secondly, he never actually said that or was quoted as saying that. It's been a well worked PR tactic by Ximian people that they imply things in the article, let the author run away with themselves, but they don't actually get quoted themselves so there's no comeback for them if they get asked. They can say they were quoted completely out of context. It's the same old crap we've been hearing for five years or more. You people fall for it like sheep every time.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Good move Novell
by carbon-12 on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE: Good move Novell"
carbon-12 Member since:
2005-07-06

Notice how active segedunum is on this thread. I guess he can't accept that Gnome, and Gnome only, is being pushed as the Linux enterprise desktop. Nothing is stopping you from enoying KDE in your home...or mother's basement.

Segedunum, the man in the Eweek article is "Novell Inc.'s director of marketing for Linux and open source", and speaks on behalf of Novell. Despite what you may think, zealotry in the workplace will get you fired. He is a professional and and is simply conveying Novell's position on the matter.

Edited 2005-11-05 17:52

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Good move Novell
by segedunum on Sun 6th Nov 2005 00:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Good move Novell"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Segedunum, the man in the Eweek article is "Novell Inc.'s director of marketing for Linux and open source", and speaks on behalf of Novell. Despite what you may think, zealotry in the workplace will get you fired. He is a professional and and is simply conveying Novell's position on the matter.

He has also come from a (former) department that are consistent liars. Go figure.

Reply Score: 1

Paranoia
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:20 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I know people, that there are a bunch of heavy emotions involved in the whole KDE/GNOME-question for a lot of people, but some posts here are really getting frightening signs of paranoia (and hatred). For instance, what is all the crap against "the Ximian guy" in the eweek article? Do a reality check: Greg Mancusi-Ungaro is the "director of marketing for Linux and open source" at Novell, so - if you like it or not - he is THE correct person to ask in such cases. Also: Why should he spell such FUD, he has nothing to win (the decisions have already been made at Novell) but everything to loose (his job) if he actively spreads misinformations.

Calm down, in the end this is just one company doing what companys have to do, that is making business decisions. KDE won't die because of it, neither will GNOME.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Paranoia
by segedunum on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:36 UTC in reply to "Paranoia"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I know people, that there are a bunch of heavy emotions involved in the whole KDE/GNOME-question for a lot of people, but some posts here are really getting frightening signs of paranoia (and hatred). For instance, what is all the crap against "the Ximian guy" in the eweek article? Do a reality check: Greg Mancusi-Ungaro is the "director of marketing for Linux and open source" at Novell

Is he really? Like their job titles don't change every week. They have a well worked history of doing things like that. If you don't believe it I suggest you look up past shitty articles around the time of the Suse aquisition that never, ever came true. There was one implying Suse's use of Ximian Desktop in Suse's distributions before the ink was even dry, and guess what happened to Ximian Desktop?

These people are full of it, through and through.

but everything to loose (his job) if he actively spreads misinformations.

He's not actually quoted in that article as saying they've made the decision to change to Gnome. That's something the author of the article has picked up and ran with. It's a well worked PR tactic.

Calm down, in the end this is just one company doing what companys have to do, that is making business decisions.

Calm down yourself. It hasn't made any decisions, and conclusion jumping on the basis of some political in-fighting is not a good idea.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Paranoia
by Yuske on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Paranoia"
Yuske Member since:
2005-07-28

That's the problem of you trolls, you denie the reallity and invent a new one based on fiction, that is sick,

Novell did the right think.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Paranoia
by Anonymous on Sat 5th Nov 2005 17:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Paranoia"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Is he really? Like their job titles don't change every week"

Look around on the web, Greg Mancusi-Ungaro is everywhere listed as "director of marketing for Linux and open source" in every interview he did recently, and he did a lot as he has been the official spokesperson for openSUSE since the start of the project. He is also listed as that in a bunch of recent Novell press releases. What you are spreading here really is pure paranoia and fud, sorry to say that.

"That's something the author of the article has picked up and ran with. It's a well worked PR tactic."

So you think Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols works for GNOME? Yeah sure...

"It hasn't made any decisions"

Dare I ask, why you would know that? Or is this just an assumption you make on "guessing"?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Paranoia
by segedunum on Sun 6th Nov 2005 00:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Paranoia"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

What you are spreading here really is pure paranoia and fud, sorry to say that.

Nope. These articles have come up before, in exactly the same manner.

So you think Steven J. Vaughan-Nichols works for GNOME? Yeah sure...

Nope, but he's a reporter. He'll run with what's been fed to him as they all do.

Dare I ask, why you would know that? Or is this just an assumption you make on "guessing"?

I'm going to need more than a statement that a Director of Marketing hasn't actually made from a department that has a long history of lying through its teeth.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Paranoia
by segedunum on Sun 6th Nov 2005 00:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Paranoia"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

That's the problem of you trolls, you denie the reallity and invent a new one based on fiction, that is sick,

Feel free to actually respond to my comments any time you like.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 11:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Amarok - Rhythmbox,Muine,BMPx,
Quod Libet,Gmerlin
K3b - Gnomebaker,Graveman,Nautilus
and serpentine,rhythmbox for audio
Krusader - Nautilus,Rox,Emelfm,Gbrowse
Evidence, Thunar (Not yet)
Quanta - Screem, Nvu, Bluefish
Kile - - (Unique and nice)
Kontact - Evolution
digiKam - F-Spot,Gthumb
Konqueror - Nautilus
Kdevelop - Eclipse,Anjuta,Monodevelop,OpenLDev
Kate - Gvim,Gedit,Gobby,Scribes
KXML Editor - Screem, Conglomerate
YaKuake - Terminal, Gputty, GBrowse
Kstars - No GTK+ app, I use Stellarium
Kivio - Dia
Kpresenter - No workable GTK+ app, I use Impress
Kturtle - No Gnome Equivalent (Logo interpreter)
Umbrello - Gaphor, MonoUML
KTechlab - Oregano,Spice+,Qcadesigner
Task Juggler- Planner
Konversation- X-Chat Gnome
Kino
Gnomemeeting
Pitivi
Inkscape
Gimp
Fluendo Streamer
Totem
Liferea
Gnumeric
Abiword
X-Chat
Pan
Beagle
Gaim
gFtp
Glabel
Dvd::rip
Thoggen
Marlin
Meld
Sound-juicer
VMWare (Player)
PenguinTV
Comix
Sane Frontends
Easytag
Evince
Bittorrent
Zapping
Fftv
File-roller
Firestarter
Tilda
Xchm

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 11:32 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
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Nice try, but most of your applications you listed are not GNOME applications, a good handful are just GTK+ apps and some you mentioned are in no way good enough to be in competition with KDE ones.

Comparing Planner with Task Juggler is just a toy.
Comparing Nautilus with Konqueror is pretty lame too since Konqueror is a different technology a KPARTS KIOSLAVES window, while Nautilus is not.

Anyways you got the idea.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Sun 6th Nov 2005 15:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Who are you to decide what is a Gnome application and what is not. This trick is used a lot but holds no water. The above mentioned applications are not sticking out on a Gnome desktop, Ever seen a Windows XP desktop, gee even office XP doesn't integrate so well as OpenOffice 2.0 in Gnome and that isn't even a gtk application. Using symantics to make you winner by default is a zealot mentality, sickening.

And ofcourse I not agreeing with your conclusion that the KDE applications are better then theapplications I mentioned. I use all of the above, some often, some when I need them and I find them very powerfull.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Gnome Users impressions
by jbauer on Sun 6th Nov 2005 15:43 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Gnome Users impressions"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

"Who are you to decide what is a Gnome application and what is not."

Yeah... right. We all know VMWare, xchm, or Eclipse are well-known Gnome applications.

Please... that is zealotry.

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: Gnome Users impressions
by Anonymous on Mon 7th Nov 2005 14:33 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Gnome Users impressions"
Anonymous Member since:
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Didn't you know? A windows based computer instantly turns into a gnome based workstation the instant you install either gaim, gvim, firefox, openoffice or the gimp - all well known gnome applications - on it. It's been the established truth since years, everyone knows it.. sheesh, you really need to read up! ;-)

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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When I first read the article my heart dropped because as a Linux newbie I've found KDE to be the shit and gnome to be anything but what I'd like to use. Nautilus is not only a displeasure to use, it did not want to do the simple file movements that I had no problem doing in konqueror. Don't get me wrong, konqueror is pathetic in comparison to the way Windows explorer has evolved (the XP version is quite nice), but in comparison to Nautilus I've found it to be a real gem.

KDE is so much more user friednly for a Windows user. The ex-MAC user will find gnome more at home, obviously, but the mainstream computer user is Windows centric. The built-in applications in KDE are a real treat. (I have to say some of the gnome ones are truly sweet, too, but I'm not making a comparison here.) And I've found it easy to build links (i.e. "shortcuts" equivalents) to programs regardless if they were KDE centric or not. A desktop needs simplicity like that!

I've also found the KDE desktop easy to manipulate using the same manipulations I use in Windows. Its format is so Windows-like that it makes it easy for a Windows user to migrate to the desktop. Sure, gnome is also fairly easy to manipulate with practice, but I did not have to resort to man pages to understand the behaviors of changes made. That was quite frustrating looking up information in plain text.

I'm glad to see the whole affair is blown out of proportion, that KDE is not leaving SuSE anytime soon. I've found SuSE to be such a nice look and feel. I've gone through several other popular distributions and found SuSE's YaST to be the most friendly approach to system manipulation. They really have a good thing going with the way it works now, especially with the KDE default. Novell should be able to use this for a springboard back into the enterprise.

OT - I've found Novell's failings not in their big projects like NDS/eDirectory, but in their stubborness to maintain markets. Quite frankly NDS/eDirectory rocks the pants off Active Directory until you get into nitty gritties like printer consolidation and migration tools from competitor services. I've always liked the Novell clients approach to a login using both context (for Novell services) and local/domain models, which always gave an extra layer of security in the enterprise. The fact that Novell has no Linux equivalent to their own Windows client shell is disturbing.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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Comparative study of various vendors' business decisions:

Redhat:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy

Sun:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy

HP:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Unix desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Unix
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy

Eazel:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy

UserLinux:
1. Adopt Gnome as the only Linux desktop
2. Loose lots of money
3. Become disillusioned in desktop on Linux
4. ???
5. Abondon Linux desktop strategy

Anyone else seeing a common pattern here?

Probably Mark Shuttleworth does. He's a smart guy. He embraced KDE and encouraged Kubuntu to take off. He now uses KDE/Kubuntu on his personal desktop [ http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php ].
I'm sure this man already thinks how he can take advantage of the stupidity displayed by Novell management in chopping KDE and betting their careers on Gnome.

The Ubuntu suite of offerings is starting to become really sweet -- rock-solid servers based on Debian, Gnome/Ubuntu as well as KDE/Kubuntu offerings for desktops, workstations and thin clients -- and it is going to be ready to enter the enterprise market very soon too. (And in my definintion of "enterprise", it is not only the top 500, but most important the Small and Medium Businesses (SMB), where Linux stands the best chances to be adopted by the owners, as well as supported by small IT professional service providers.)

Reply Score: 1