Linked by Eugenia Loli on Fri 11th Nov 2005 00:53 UTC
Internet & Networking Over a year ago we reported on the promising gaim-vv which was supposed to bring MSN/Y! webcam and voice support to Gaim, a feature sorely missed by many IM users today when running Linux. The lead developer of the gaim-vv project now says that the Gaim project leader (now employed by Google) has killed off most of his pending CVS patches and has instead replaced them with voice-only patches, patches coming from Google which are only to be used with the Google IM protocol, leaving all other voice and all video protocols in dissarray. Update: The other side has spoken explaining the situation, but unfortunately it says nothing about webcam support for now or in the future, but only about voice.
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umm.. excuse me
by modmans2ndcoming on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:12 UTC
modmans2ndcoming
Member since:
2005-11-09

but google dose not own GAIM

how about forking it and makign GAIM-X

GAIM in Exile

Reply Score: 1

RE: umm.. excuse me
by endy on Fri 11th Nov 2005 14:11 UTC in reply to "umm.. excuse me"
endy Member since:
2005-09-02

I see no problem with what is happening, I would much prefer to have full duplex audio than one way video. And if this lays the foundation for duplex video & audio then it's for the best IMHO.

However, nothing is stopping anyone from forking GAIM.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: umm.. excuse me
by segedunum on Sat 12th Nov 2005 01:12 UTC in reply to "RE: umm.. excuse me"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

However, nothing is stopping anyone from forking GAIM.

Which others have to maintain. It's just not that simple, although at times it seems like it is.

Reply Score: 1

Good
by ma_d on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:21 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Now someone else will end up picking it up, hopefully.

Reply Score: 1

v Open Source
by googlegaim on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:21 UTC
RE: Open Source
by ma_d on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:28 UTC in reply to "Open Source"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

You're only right because we can insert anything to define your hanging pronoun.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Open Source
by CrimsonScythe on Fri 11th Nov 2005 06:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Open Source"
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

I modded you up again because I really couldn't see any reason for modding you down. Other than ignorance, of course.

So, for the ignorant, I'll explain:
What ma_d says is that the only reason the GP was correct, was that he didn't specify what he meant by "that", the hanging pronoun. Not specifying "this", "that", "these", "those", etc is a common mistake and usually leaves the sentence rather ambiguous at best. GP's post can then be interpreted as anything, for instance:

"Having Ignorant anti-FOSS zealots commenting on stuff they don't understand is the problem with open source."

Reply Score: 1

RE: Open Source
by Sodki on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:35 UTC in reply to "Open Source"
Sodki Member since:
2005-11-10

That's the problem with open source.

Yes, the problem with open source is that the code is still there for anyone who wants to work on it. Now, if it were a closed source code, no-one would ever know about this and the project would die quietly. Nice.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Open Source
by googlegaim on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Open Source"
googlegaim Member since:
2005-11-11

Sure anybody could but the likely hood of that happening is very low. The fact of the matter is the Lead Developer decided he couldnít live on free beer alone and now has other thing he needs to work on. If it was a commercial product which had amassed this amount of market share the lead developer probably could have continued to support and enhance the product.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Open Source
by the_trapper on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Open Source"
the_trapper Member since:
2005-07-07

Sure anybody could but the likely hood of that happening is very low.

I very much disagree. It is extremely likely that someone will fork Gaim if its lead developer really is obstructing progress on features that users really want.

Look at how many Linux distros we have that are forks created by dissatisfied users. This is where Mandrake Linux came from. Red Hat said they were relegating KDE to the backburner with only one maintainer on staff, and Mandrake stepped up to create a Red Hat compatible distro with first-class KDE support, among other things. Mandrake later evolved to be much more than this, but I think it's a good illustration of forking at its best.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Open Source
by googlegaim on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Open Source"
googlegaim Member since:
2005-11-11

And Mandrake has now stolen the large market share that RedHat used to have or does RedHat still have the largest share of the commercial Market? Just because something is forked doesnít mean people will Migrate in large numbers. Most will stay with the main branch the more things fork the more incompatibilities are introduced. But I suppose we could just fork again to try and solve those problems.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Open Source
by FooBarWidget on Fri 11th Nov 2005 10:42 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Open Source"
FooBarWidget Member since:
2005-11-11

So? The fact that people didn't migrate means the original is better than the fork. It's free market at work.

Reply Score: 1

Patience?
by diegocg on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:23 UTC
diegocg
Member since:
2005-07-08

Since the developer was hired by google, I guess you could expect he (as a open source developer) gives preference to the things he know better and will work to add webcam later? I want to hear both sides, I _very much_ doubt google and that developer has any interest in delaying a feature which everyone want...maybe -vv voice support is crappy and he thinks he can do it better? (though -vv seems to have a better design from the post)


Anyway, just for those who may need an OSS IM program with webcam suport, kopete CVS has webcam support for msn at least, will be available in kde 3.5...

Reply Score: 4

Well...
by thjayo on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:33 UTC
thjayo
Member since:
2005-11-11

we will have to go to alternatives then...
kopete's webcam support is already in cvs, so does amsn cvs
i think Mercury supports it too

really sad to see this kind of stuff

Reply Score: 1

opinion from the other side
by diegocg on Fri 11th Nov 2005 01:39 UTC
diegocg
Member since:
2005-07-08

Eugenia, there's a link in the gaim mailing list from gaim's developer explaining why he does what it's doing, perhaps you should include it in the header? (my humble opinion ;)

http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_id=8864408&foru...

Reply Score: 5

v Open Source Fork. Vote me down.
by googlegaim on Fri 11th Nov 2005 02:28 UTC
RE: Open Source Fork. Vote me down.
by Eugenia on Fri 11th Nov 2005 02:32 UTC in reply to "Open Source Fork. Vote me down."
Eugenia Member since:
2005-06-28

Googlegaim, only reply to the actual news item and don't start off topic generic conversations that eventually lead to flamewars. We don't want them here. If your next comment is not on topic, you will be banned. This is your first and last warning.

Reply Score: 5

v I knew Forking was bad.
by googlegaim on Fri 11th Nov 2005 02:44 UTC
Bizarre...
by mike hess on Fri 11th Nov 2005 02:58 UTC
mike hess
Member since:
2005-08-22

I think we don't know the whole story here, so its a little wrong to start making sweeping, bloodthirsty flames about it.

But i must say it seems contrary to how most open source projects work. If there's useful code that is even the seeds of a possible feature, it shouldn't be ruled out. Maybe the lead developer doesn't want to work on it, but maybe someone else does. Especially if there's solid audio code already.

Something seems fishy here. But as long as its GPL software, there's no sense getting real pissed off about it. Someone else can take control if Google screws it.

Reply Score: 1

nii_
Member since:
2005-07-11

GAIM is fortunately released under the GPL license, so anyone may modify it as they see fit.
GAIM can be forked. One being the Google GAIM and one being the GAIM with the video capability.

The two GAIMs can compete depending on the needs of its users. And as they are both released under the GPL, there will be no licensing trouble about recombing the best features of each if one so chooses.

This is where the GPL really shines.

Reply Score: 3

Why fork?
by youknowmewell on Fri 11th Nov 2005 04:04 UTC
youknowmewell
Member since:
2005-07-08

As long as the current GAIM devs/maintainers don't actively stop video capabilities from being added to GAIM, there is no reason why someone else shouldn't add it if they can. There would be no point to forking GAIM if the devs allow patches to be submitted.

Reply Score: 1

funny
by superstoned on Fri 11th Nov 2005 08:46 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

i thought kopete was behind gaim, as the gaim dev's made some noise about the webcam support quite some time ago. now it seems kopete is running up-front, as kde 3.5 might very well have msn webcam support ;)

seems typical - g(nome/aim/whatever) promisses, KDE delivers ;)

Reply Score: 0

kopete-svn
by LinuxDesktopUser on Fri 11th Nov 2005 09:35 UTC
LinuxDesktopUser
Member since:
2005-11-11

Actually has msn webcam support. So there is a Linux Free Software app with this feature. Cool, no ?

Reply Score: 3

A Lesson Learned
by segedunum on Fri 11th Nov 2005 12:04 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

Basically, it is a bit dangerous for the openness of an open source project for one lead developer who has control, or a number of developers, to be employed by one company. And no, it doesn't matter how liberal the license is.

It's clear why this has happened. Sean has had pressure put on him for Gaim to basically become a Google-only IM client. Goodbye Yahoo, MSN and any other network's support. Gaim is Google's personal open source project now, and I'm surprised at Google because they should know about the politics and trouble that could ensue as a result of something like this.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A Lesson Learned
by japail on Fri 11th Nov 2005 13:05 UTC in reply to "A Lesson Learned"
japail Member since:
2005-06-30

You sure aren't jumping the gun here by predicting the demise of support for every protocol other than Jabber's support in gaim or anything.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: A Lesson Learned
by segedunum on Fri 11th Nov 2005 14:23 UTC in reply to "RE: A Lesson Learned"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You sure aren't jumping the gun here by predicting the demise of support for every protocol other than Jabber's support in gaim or anything.

In Google's employees' worlds yes. However, since anybody can actually use Jabber maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A Lesson Learned
by mike hess on Fri 11th Nov 2005 14:32 UTC in reply to "A Lesson Learned"
mike hess Member since:
2005-08-22

I disagree.

Supposeing Google forces Sean to remove ALL protocol compatibility besides Google. It doesn't really matter, in fact, it may be preferable.

Let Google give the FOSS community a bunch of free code. We'll take it. And then we'll start our own project.

More Free Code > Less Free Code

As long as its free, there's very little harm any corporation can actually inflict. Developers will always have the power.

Reply Score: 2

cookieninja
Member since:
2005-11-11

The update to this story, which links to a post by one of the coders, clearly states that video is not being abandoned.

He said that Gstreamer & farsight is not mature enough to use, and that he is currently focusing on audio.

Farsight is a project concerned with audio & video for all the major IM networks, and when the gaim team consider it mature enough then they can use it, and gaim will support audio & video.

farsight is a project whose coders, I believe, are mainly concerned with aMSN. The point of the farsight project, though, is to develop support for audio & video in a way that allows any IM project to use it.

I have used the video support that aMSN offers, which I believe is done using farsight, and I have to agree that although it's good it's not mature.

Link to farsight here:

http://projects.collabora.co.uk/farsight/wiki/RoadMap

Edited 2005-11-11 15:52

Reply Score: 4