Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 14th Nov 2005 18:50 UTC
Internet & Networking If a certain US senator and a certain EU commissioner are to be believed, the internet is five days away from total collapse as governments are finally forced into a corner and told to agree on a framework for future Internet governance. Both are wrong, but there is a very real risk that an enormous political argument resulting in lifelong ill-will centred around the internet could developed unchecked at the WSIS Summit. The fact that it hasn’t already is effectively down to one man: Mr Khan. He was chosen as chair of Sub-Committee A during the WSIS process, and his remit includes all the most difficult and contentious elements - not just internet governance but also how the world will deal with issues such as spam and cybercrime.
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/salute Mr. Khan
by engmar on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:35 UTC
engmar
Member since:
2005-11-14

This guy, if he pulls off his attempt to keep the infantile from tearing the internet apart, will have done the nearly impossible - because the truth is that there are several nation states that would like to see global networks fractured into regional networks (and they aren't always the ones you would expect.)

Reply Score: 1

This is tiring....
by OMRebel on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:40 UTC
OMRebel
Member since:
2005-11-14

The UN and EU really do need to grow up. Now, for those of you who live in the EU, this isn't an attack on you, but for those that are whinning about this. The fact is other nations have started to depend on an American product very heavily for their economy. Now, those nations that have relied so heavily on it want to have control of something that simply isn't theirs. They want the ability to TAX the Internet on simple things that are currently free, such as email. This whole thing isn't about moving the US out of countrol of the Internet, as so many want to believe. This is about money, plain and simple.

There is nothing wrong with the Internet. It is free to the world. The US isn't charging other nations or restricting nations from access to it. The US isn't bullying other nations around. This is corrupted politicians seeing dollar signs (well, Euro signs) in their eyes, and wanting to profit off of something that doesn't belong to them.

This entire issue is completely assanine, and despite of everyone thinking the issue is about anti-US sentiment, it's not. It's about the UN and EU making money. And, those who are supporting such a move and unknowingly supporting the concept of having their government impose taxes on them.

Edited 2005-11-14 20:44

Reply Score: 4

RE: This is tiring....
by jaboua on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:45 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
jaboua Member since:
2005-09-08

Who said that EU wanted to tax the internet?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This is tiring....
by OMRebel on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:54 UTC in reply to "RE: This is tiring...."
OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

They (the EU) are teaming up with the UN on this issue are they not?


http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/freedomline/un_monitor/in_our_opinion/gl...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is tiring....
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 01:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is tiring...."
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Sorry , I dont relly at anytime on ultra nationalist US based nutcase group to make a judgement on anything.

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/about_cfif/index.htm

Reply Score: 2

RE: This is tiring....
by endy on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:52 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
endy Member since:
2005-09-02

If a country wants control of their own portion of the internet and wants to tax it then who are we, as outsiders, to tell them what to do?

It's up each country and their respective citizens to decide what gets taxed or not.

And yes, I think it's time the internet got shared but no, I don't think anyone is going about it the right way.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This is tiring....
by Smartpatrol on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE: This is tiring...."
Smartpatrol Member since:
2005-07-06

Your right the internet should be censored 100% by those nations and they should be allowed to levey VAT on all internet related dealings. <rolls eyes>

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is tiring....
by endy on Tue 15th Nov 2005 14:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is tiring...."
endy Member since:
2005-09-02

You can roll your eyes as much as you want but it doesnt change the fact that you can't go around telling other countries what to do. Would you like some other country telling you how to run your taxes? I doubt it.

Censorship is generally bad and of course no one likes tax but it's not up to me or you to tell another country how to run themselves that's what voters are for.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This is tiring....
by OMRebel on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:04 UTC in reply to "RE: This is tiring...."
OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

But, it is shared. The problem is other countries see a money maker off of it and want to be able to govern it in order to make that money. That's the primary cause of the UN trying to wrestle away control from the US. It isn't that the Internet has been misused by the US. The US and ICANN have done a great job. That leaves only one cause for the UN and EU to even bring this up - MONEY.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is tiring....
by joelito_pr on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is tiring...."
joelito_pr Member since:
2005-07-07

I wonder what would happen if BillG and MS pull out Windows(tm) from the rest of the world just because they're americans.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: This is tiring....
by rcsteiner on Mon 14th Nov 2005 22:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: This is tiring...."
rcsteiner Member since:
2005-07-12

It would have little effect on people. Even the folks who use Windows now already have copies of Windows, so all they would do is make copies of those installations.

Since piracy seems to be so rampant in some places anyway, that means they'd just be doing the status quo...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is tiring....
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 01:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is tiring...."
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

The US as nothing to do with internet ...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is tiring....
by Soulbender on Tue 15th Nov 2005 05:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is tiring...."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"The US and ICANN have done a great job"
No sorry, they arent. If ICANN actually did work as it is supposed to this issue wouldnt exist. No, it's not anti-US, the ICANN simply isnt doing a great job.
http://www.icannwatch.org/

"That leaves only one cause for the UN and EU to even bring this up - MONEY."
And what do you think the reason for US to keep control is? Free bananas?

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is tiring....
by DittoBox on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:53 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
DittoBox Member since:
2005-07-08

Though I believe you're correct, do you have any sources that point towards the implementation of taxes on the internet from the EU?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This is tiring....
by OMRebel on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE: This is tiring...."
OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

I'll try to find some links, but I think I remember a large number of nations from the EU were supporters of the International Tax Organization in the UN.

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is tiring....
by Smartpatrol on Mon 14th Nov 2005 20:59 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
Smartpatrol Member since:
2005-07-06

Its about control only with this control comes the ability to TAX. Its fine the way it is managed now.

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is tiring....
by smitty on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:54 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

I have to agree that it is all about money, but that doesn't necessarily have to mean taxes. The internet has become so important to the world economy it's almost like oil. Without it, economies would grind to a halt. And because it is so important to the economy, governments naturally want to control it. Without that control, they could reasonably assume the US will use it as a bargaining chip in future negotiations (like OPEC countries use oil to get what they want).

The EU and other countries wanting control isn't childish - it's politics. And the US refusing to give up control is the exact same politics, just from the other side.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: This is tiring....
by protagonist on Tue 15th Nov 2005 17:28 UTC in reply to "RE: This is tiring...."
protagonist Member since:
2005-07-06

You make a good point, but can you imagine the uproar that would be caused by the EU and UN insisting that since oil is used globally all Oil should be put under the some form of international control? :-)

Admittedly, many nations have contributed to the success of the internet, but the practical application of it did originate in the US and was pretty much financially backed in the US. I don't think most people would object to some kind of internationalization of it. The problem is that what has been suggested is totally unacceptable to us. Since most people here feel that the UN is totally incapable of managing it properly it makes the whole idea a big joke.

ICANN has been doing a very good job and replacing it with something perceived to be much worse will never be acceptable. I am not sure an acceptable resolution can be found unless there is some form of guarantee that the internet will always be free to all as it is now.

Say what you want, but I feel that most of the detractors of ICANN are not really protesting ICANN itself as they are displaying an anti US bias. The perception is that the US government controls the internet and that is just plain wrong. If we could get past the anti US sentiment and seriously discuss the issue a solution might be achieved. Until then it is just a lot of rhetoric by politicians the world over who abhor the idea of something they are not in control of.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: This is tiring....
by Soulbender on Wed 16th Nov 2005 02:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: This is tiring...."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Admittedly, many nations have contributed to the success of the internet, but the practical application of it did originate in the US and was pretty much financially backed in the US."

Railroads saw their first practical implementation
in europe and britain put a lot of money into it. Would you like the british governement to control the u.s railroads?

"The perception is that the US government controls the internet and that is just plain wrong. "

The U.S government veto'd the .xxx domain. If that's not control you must have a different definition of control than the rest of the world.

Reply Score: 1

I agree , get your pills quick
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 01:44 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"The fact is other nations have started to depend on an American product very heavily for their economy. "

Etats-Unians like to claim things that are not exclusively there own all the time ( like naming themself and everything they do Americans. ) The internet is a world wide created product , only someone really delusionnal would think and say otherwise , please show your paper of ownership and make veil threats , it only work on country who the UN has beaten to the ground 10 years ago.

"Now, those nations that have relied so heavily on it want to have control of something that simply isn't theirs. "

Like I said , please show your paper of ownership of the Internet. This is just as ridiculous as The Etats-Unians claiming ownership of all phones lines globbaly and is just as ridiculous.

"This whole thing isn't about moving the US out of countrol of the Internet"

The US as zero control over the internet. Never did and never will have any.

"There is nothing wrong with the Internet. It is free to the world."

Because no one entity own it ... and The ISP are all playing nice for now. The problem is the illegal things ( child pornography in the US , server is in russia , or illgal gamblings player is in US the server are in Canada , money is going to Caiman island ) happening on it , the only global entity that can go and do anything legally in any country regarding communciation is ONLY the UN.

"The US isn't charging other nations or restricting nations from access to it."

I would really like and see them try. They cant even control the immoral and illegal things happening inside there own border inside the US.

"The US isn't bullying other nations around."

Start looking at internationnal news sometime ...

"This is corrupted politicians seeing dollar signs"

In the US playing the game of the vocal mindless extremist nationalist always make you money.

"and despite of everyone thinking the issue is about anti-US sentiment, it's not. It's about the UN and EU making money"

Everyone is thinking its a none issue as no one care what the US say and does regardint the Internet ...

"those who are supporting such a move and unknowingly supporting the concept of having their government impose taxes on them."

Internet is a service , any country can decide to specificaly tax it as it wish , like the UN or the US will be able to stop someone else country from taxing what they whant to tax inside there own border ...

What the UN is trying to fix is the Illegal child pornography and other illegal thing , because the ISP have no legal power to really stop it , must be why the US and you are trying to stop the UN you dont care about anyone just that it make money.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I agree , get your pills quick
by Soulbender on Tue 15th Nov 2005 05:11 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

The US really need to grow up.

"The fact is other nations have started to depend on an American product very heavily for their economy."
Kind of like how the US depend on product/inventions from other countries for their economy.

"This whole thing isn't about moving the US out of countrol of the Internet"
From a pure technical point the US does not have any control over the internet. The rest of the world could, if they wanted and agreed etc etc, just cut the US out of the loop and route all traffic around it.

"This is corrupted politicians seeing dollar signs"
Yes, it most certainly is and from both the US, EU and UN. And not only politicians. You'd know that if you followed other developments like certain US ISP's wanting to charge content providers (hey, all content lives in the US, right.?) like yahoo and google for servicing the ISP's own customers.

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is tiring....
by Kroc on Tue 15th Nov 2005 07:11 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

"an American product"

America didn't lay the phone lines world wide, they didn't provide the servers and ISPs world wide and they didn't contribute all the content on the Internet either.

You control the root machines, you hold the keys to the network; you only built a small part of it though.

There is a world outside of America and Europe discovered you, not the other way around.

Reply Score: 1

Before you start blaming the US....
by christianhgross on Tue 15th Nov 2005 13:05 UTC in reply to "This is tiring...."
christianhgross Member since:
2005-11-15

Wanna know how all this started?

http://news.zdnet.com/2110-9588_22-5868953.html

The president decided to control the Internet because a friggen 6,000 people wrote in to voice their opinion against the .xxx domains which were approved by the ICANN.

So here is my question, if you say the Internet is free, why is the Bush administration meddling like a corrupted politician that sees Euro signs?

Had the Bush administration left its grubby paws of this issue we would not be in the mess we are now! BTW I don't want ANY government meddling in the Internet. The Internet has done well all on its own!

Reply Score: 1

Re: tiring
by Buck on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:07 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

I bet everyone will be ever so happy when EU invents its own internet and US will have their own internet! Now, really EU is so uncool - they're trying to own what's not theirs - ha ha! Does it matter who invented it? It's free! It's open! Imagine Linus saying that America cannot use the operating system that he created anymore because he is European. Those who protect US so much will just protect it financially - this approach won't do any other 'help' otherwise.

Reply Score: 1

Global Tax
by joelito_pr on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:08 UTC
joelito_pr
Member since:
2005-07-07

WHAT!!?

Are they CRAZY!!?

So this is why they want the Internet for?

Forget it, America(The US) would NEVER agree on something like that. And if they were, the supporters(In congress) will be voted out to OBLIVION.

Reply Score: 1

v ah stupid xenophobic conservetative americans
by grrr on Mon 14th Nov 2005 21:22 UTC
korpenkraxar
Member since:
2005-09-10

that transfer of control to a super-governmental body like the UN of a global phenomenon like the internet could be a good thing? It is definately not an all American product anymore, other countries have also invested a lot in their internet infra-structure and economy.

The US may not restrict usage at the MOMENT, but given the fairly aggressive "bomb first ask questions later"-foreign policy that it seems to have adopted lately I guess future changes to that unrestricted access can not be ruled out, I find it better to put it in the hands of the UN - and not being controlled by the generosity and hospitality of any SINGLE country.

More importantly (and seriously), couldn't we for instance expect (or affect) our representatives in the UN to put pressure on contents censoring countries like China to actually adhere to the right to freedom of speech?

Those of you who are against transferring the Internet control to the UN, what are your fears and why would they apply if the UN was in charge?

Reply Score: 5

tummy Member since:
2005-09-14

You think an organisation that puts Sudan in charge of human rights is the kind of international governmental body that should be governing the internet?

fascinating...

Reply Score: 3

OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

Exactly! The UN has already proven to be extremely corrupted. Oil for Food anyone?

I had no clue what the UN would do, but I think it would be reasonable to assume that they would do two things:
1. Try to impose taxes on emails.
2. Setup censorship on the Internet.

For those that think the UN should have control, why? How should it be run differently? Also, do you believe the UN should take control over all of the oil fields, since the world relies on oil so heavily as well?

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"The UN has already proven to be extremely corrupted."

No the UN as proven to be the most uncorrupted democracy in existance , if one take everything they did since there creations entirely , the UN is not without flaw and not without problem , but the biggest road Block for UN 2.0 is the US.

The UN whas created to stop ALL war at all cost since it whas working so great some Country ( the US mostly ) pushed to make it mostly into a Governemental body.

The UN as no legal power to push taxes on anyone , they cant even make the US pay there own share of what they said they would pay for the UN to be able to operate properly.

"I think it would be reasonable to assume that they would do two things: "

No , its not reasonnable to assume that they would do what scared little US cowards say they would and no you do not think.

"For those that think the UN should have control, why?"

Because the UN is already whats controlling all global communication now.

"How should it be run differently?"

Make it possible for illegal things to be stopped globally as opposed to only stopped for a few seconds.

"Also, do you believe the UN should take control over all of the oil fields"

as Opposed to the US ? Hell yes !

"since the world relies on oil so heavily as well?"

The UN unlike the US work for everyone that include the people in the US as opposed to working to make everyone else suffer at the privilege of only some US people.

Reply Score: 4

John Nilsson Member since:
2005-07-06

"How should it be run differently?"

Make it possible for illegal things to be stopped globally as opposed to only stopped for a few seconds.


Like "copyright protection" circumvention?

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

No , like go to jail , instead of just being stopped from using one ISP who suddenly found some morality or who is blocked by everyone due to it arboring mass adult porn spammers ...

Reply Score: 1

smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Sudan is hardly in charge - they are 1 of 53 member states, and a lot of them are just as bad. Cuba, Russia, China, Saudi Arabia... None of the 15 African states should be very proud about their human rights records. If anyone is in charge it would be Indonesia, the current chair.

The US itself is hardly a champion of human rights. Torturing prisoners and imprisoning people for years without any trials... Even if you agree with these policies, it is hard to call them good for human rights.

To see all 53 states:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNCHR

Reply Score: 3

protagonist Member since:
2005-07-06

"The US itself is hardly a champion of human rights. Torturing prisoners and imprisoning people for years without any trials... Even if you agree with these policies, it is hard to call them good for human rights. "

You ever been to war?

Reply Score: 1

John Nilsson Member since:
2005-07-06

You ever been to war?

Are you trying to say that starting a war justifices crimes against human rights?

Reply Score: 1

Smartpatrol Member since:
2005-07-06

I think he is saying that your blatant ignorance of human conflict blinds you to the true nature of it. The United States is one of the only countries that actually obey the rules of land warfare deliberated in Geneva Switzerland and adopted on 12 August 1949 and entry into force 21 October 1950. In terms you can understand people die in war including civilians in the case of Modern US warfare Civilian deaths are accidental as opposed to the Terrorists who have slaughtered hundreds of civilians intentionally.

Edited 2005-11-15 18:32

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"I think he is saying that your blatant ignorance of human conflict blinds you to the true nature of it."

No , you do not think , If there is one country who as not learned from its own history and conflicts its the United States "of America" , you are still at war today , war always as the same effect : People die. Hence what someone who think will learn from war ? that war are bad and must be avoided at all cost , Peace is the only real lasting solution and it must be invested in it more then in your war machine.

"The United States is one of the only countries that actually obey the rules of land warfare deliberated in Geneva Switzerland and adopted on 12 August 1949 and entry into force 21 October 1950. "

No , you also forget the the two 1977 Additional Protocols

Protocol I

Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts. Extends protections to victims of wars against racist regimes and wars of self determination.

Protocol II

Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Proection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts. Extends protections to victims of internal conflicts in which an armed opposition controls enough territory to enable them to carry out sustained military operations.

-------

To a real soldier there can be no greater shame then
to take the life of any civilian for any reason at all under any circumstance as the resaon for being a real soldier is to defend and protect the life of all and any civilians , there way of life and there freedom all this before nations and above cause as this is what seperate criminals and murderers from the true soldiers.

Armed Forces serves and protect the civilians at all time.

Reply Score: 1

Smartpatrol Member since:
2005-07-06

No , you do not think , If there is one country who as not learned from its own history and conflicts its the United States "of America" , you are still at war today , war always as the same effect : People die. Hence what someone who think will learn from war ? that war are bad and must be avoided at all cost , Peace is the only real lasting solution and it must be invested in it more then in your war machine.

There is no such thing as peace when it comes to Human beings. There is only the time between wars. Study human nature and you will know this to be true and wake up from your dream world.

Protocol I

Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Protection of Victims of International Armed Conflicts. Extends protections to victims of wars against racist regimes and wars of self determination.


Okay, and this applies how?

Protocol II

Additional to the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, and relating to the Proection of Victims of Non-International Armed Conflicts. Extends protections to victims of internal conflicts in which an armed opposition controls enough territory to enable them to carry out sustained military operations.


Once again whats your point?

To a real soldier there can be no greater shame then
to take the life of any civilian for any reason at all under any circumstance as the resaon for being a real soldier is to defend and protect the life of all and any civilians, there way of life and there freedom all this before nations and above cause as this is what seperate criminals and murderers from the true soldiers.

Armed Forces serves and protect the civilians at all time.


Ultimately this is a secondary role to mission objectives of destroying the enemy. Despite this every meassure is taken to prevent civilian losses from the planning stages. Be glad that highly trained American forces are there and not some other countries.
But keep in mind they are not police! and they should never be assumed to be treated like police when they make a mistake and kill someone determind after the fact to be a non-combatant.

Reply Score: 1

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

Who should they put in charge of the human rights council? The US? HA HA HA HA HA.. I guess you have been ignoring Dick Cheny's little opinion on torture, and the leaked report about the secret US prisons over seas, and Lindsey Graham's amendment to the defense appropriations bill that will remove any ambiguity of the habius statues about prisoners held on foreign soil.

The US is no better than the Sudan on Human Rights.. they just do their business more publicly.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"You think an organisation that puts Sudan in charge of human rights is the kind of international governmental body that should be governing the internet? "

You think a government that has places like Guantanamo Bay should be governing the internet?

Reply Score: 1

EliGottlieb Member since:
2005-10-30

You're confusing incompetance (the UN) with malice (USA).

Reply Score: 1

burtis
Member since:
2005-11-15

Just because a lot of people don't like the U.S. right now is not a good reason for changing control. There need to be solid reasonable reasons for the change. Other than that - FORGET IT!

Reply Score: 1

modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

1) The internet is a world wide phenomena
2) Nigerian Cybor Crimes are kind of hard to stop from within the US
3) All it will take is one country to harbor worm writers and you cannot get to them.
4) If the UN controlled the Internet, it could block traffic from nations that are breaking international internet law (like harboring worm authors or running scams) which would protect the world from those individuals.

Reply Score: 1

Well, with Bush in office
by modmans2ndcoming on Tue 15th Nov 2005 04:16 UTC
modmans2ndcoming
Member since:
2005-11-09

you can expect that he will jsut say:

"go it alone then boys!!! we don't need no commune-ication on the inteer-net with those commie ur-a-pee-ins.. heck just the word commune-ication has that hippy commie word commune in it.

And remember, we are fighting a war on terrah...."

Reply Score: 1

v A bunch of crap
by CanuckleFrog on Tue 15th Nov 2005 05:42 UTC
Why Open Source?
by avagon on Tue 15th Nov 2005 12:17 UTC
avagon
Member since:
2005-11-15

Why foreign governments are moving to open source? A major reason is that that dont want to give control of their IT structure to a foreign govt. Do you remember NSA_KEY scandal in MS Windows ?

What if USA decides they want to embargo on a country? They just easily cut their internet life line. A cut-off for not just countries like Libya or Iran. In Iraq war, USA renamed French Fries ;-) So Germany and France and EU have something to worry about as well.

As for tax on email, some countries (even like UK) are already forcing or tried to force their ISPs to put email scanners. What can prevent even today - with US control - to impose tax on internet usage/emails. So money/tax is out of question.

Control under UN simply means a single country cannot block internet access. For example, if USA again decides to ignore UN and decides that Iran is BAD GUY, it would single handedly cripple Iran's IT sector. With UN control, rest of the world wants to avoid such action.

Edited 2005-11-15 12:20

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why Open Source?
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 15th Nov 2005 15:10 UTC in reply to "Why Open Source?"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

"They just easily cut their internet life line. A cut-off for not just countries like Libya or Iran. In Iraq war, USA renamed French Fries ;-)"

And France's economy was devastated. err...

It was childish, but I'd hesitate to use it as an example of economic warfare, even in jest ;)

Reply Score: 1

bentman78
Member since:
2005-11-15

Becuase the UN is an inefficient organization that accomplishes nothing. The EU is no less corrupt than the US. So chaning over to the UN (read Europe) does nothing since al organizations are just as bad as each other. why go thourgh the hassle. The internet is fine how it is, it works....leave it be.

Reply Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

UN != Europe.
The fair majority of member states aren't european.

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"Becuase the UN is an inefficient organization that accomplishes nothing."

Actually for an Organization who's first mandate is no more war , I think since we havent had a World War in 60 years , there pretty good at there job.

"The EU is no less corrupt than the US."

Yes they are , the EU is more then one country , the US is #1 in corruption , all by itself , they have to be #1 at everything ...

"So chaning over to the UN (read Europe)"

Actually the UN is an American idea ( Mostly CANADA this days do the Etats-Unians forget even there name so ... ).

"does nothing since al organizations are just as bad as each other. "

You have the delusionnal Idea that ICANN is a US entity , so does some people in your government :

http://www.icann.org/general/

**The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) is an internationally organized, non-profit corporation that has responsibility for Internet Protocol (IP) address space allocation, protocol identifier assignment, generic (gTLD) and country code (ccTLD) Top-Level Domain name system management, and root server system management functions.**

What your government is trying could be compared as hijacking the Red Cross because they have Red Cross center in the US ... You just making yourself look like laughing stock from anyone who as two bits of senses.

"why go thourgh the hassle."

No Idea , ask your government , it dont make snese to me this days , same thing happened with Lenovo ( china company who bought IBM desktop division ) , congress said , hey its US we must stop china from taking our technology , guess what genius , they've been making IBM computer there for almost 15 years now ...

"The internet is fine how it is"

Nope , its not yet considered a communication mean , legally that is , hence it does not offer the same level of protection to all users , last time I looked all communication are reglemented by the UN , they've been doing them for years , you did not knew that I guess , there also the illegal stuff that get closed by ISP , but the pedophile just change ISP when found , etc ... etc ...

"it works....leave it be."

Yes because the US as nothing to do with it , but there trying to imply they do , its funny as hell , but its getting ridiculous now ... so stop that , please.

Reply Score: 2

bentman78
Member since:
2005-11-15

what does cybercrimes in Nigeria have to do with anything. Listen...if someone if Mali wats to run a scam from thier servers, the US isn't going to stop them..that much is true. The UN won't/can't either. You Europeans are dillusional if you think the UN is some benevelont body ready to help anyone out. They will not stop Child pornography/scams/gambling or anythng else any more than the US tries. If they are how are they going to do, sanction the country and cut off access? Yeah because that's free...

Sorry, I don't need a international body of anti-US beuacrats running something that already works well anyway. So spare me your anti-US crapaganda I don't want to hear it. The internet is fine...leave it alone.

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"what does cybercrimes in Nigeria have to do with anything."

Its a crimes ... done on the internet hence cybercrime ... its actually illegal , by internet standards , they have to do something really illegal because the internet standards are pretty low...

"if someone if Mali wats to run a scam from thier servers, the US isn't going to stop them..that much is true."

Thats right you still think the US control the net ...
they dont , never did , never will , they did not invent or create it either ...

"The UN won't/can't either."

Actually with communication law in place , those that everyone agreed with The UN can intervene in some case as it there mandate to do so , they will go true the propper local channel.

"You Europeans are dillusional if you think the UN is some benevelont body ready to help anyone out."

I am an American , a real American from CANADA , you know the place that is not "OF A" who actually as 3 A in it ... You never get that one , ho well. You Etats-Unians ...

BTW history lesson : The UN whas created with the support and help by the US and other winner of WW2 ...
you just choose to forget that one when things dont go your way.

Another thing , PLEASE , LEAVE THE UN , we whant to see how well you fare alone on this big wide blue planet of ours , alone. Your too chicken you never do ...

"They will not stop Child pornography/scams/gambling or anythng else any more than the US tries"

They already do more then the US in those cases.

"If they are how are they going to do, sanction the country and cut off access? Yeah because that's free... "

Do some research on jail penalty for breaking internationnal communication law ... they already apply in the US and are UN sanctionned ...

" I don't need a international body of anti-US beuacrats running something that already works well anyway."

We all know that the UN is not anti US and that its the other way around ...

"So spare me your anti-US crapaganda"

Anti-US ? I am anti Idiot , there universally everywhere ...

You see the most powerfull people dont say there the most powerfull , they dont call themself superpower , they just say , Hey , the UN is controling the net because its a communication means , everyone agree with them and they get it done ... You would never guess who as that much power ;-) , hint : It never whas the US and never will be.

Now now dont get upset , let the grown up do the talking and they divert you from actually messing it up by making you think your in control or have any say , you see its beeing done , your not thinking its going to get done so you whont have any "special US requirements" or make special amendements , its going to be the same for everyone ;-) as in real UN ...

"The internet is fine...leave it alone"

Yes because the US as nothing to do with it , but there trying to imply they do , its funny as hell , but its getting ridiculous now ... so stop that , please.

Please explain something to me , US idiots ( wich is not the majority of US citizen thankfully ) , always say the UN is irrelevant , inneficient , corrupt and that they never do anything , but always argue against what they , the UN , are trying to do , if something is irrelevant why do they feel the need to oppose it ? I never get that one , at all ...

Reply Score: 1

re:Moulinneuf
by bentman78 on Tue 15th Nov 2005 15:49 UTC
bentman78
Member since:
2005-11-15

Yes they are , the EU is more then one country , the US is #1 in corruption , all by itself , they have to be #1 at everything ...


state sources please. Where is the world corruption ranking list. Sounds like someone has a case of ADS (American Derangement Syndrome), where everything stated about the US must be bad, regardless of actual facts. Like Europe is benevelont huh? They are just better at corruption than we are since they have had 1000 years to perfect it. You can add that to the raping and plundering of the world for there own uses...must get tiring doing it for that long.


"Actually for an Organization who's first mandate is no more war , I think since we havent had a World War in 60 years , there pretty good at there job.
"
Not at all, the turn thier back on resolutions they pass, turn thier back on Rwanda and Somilia, still haven't solved the Bosnia-Serbia and Chenchya crises even though they're in thier own back yard...so no...they haven't done a good job.

"**The Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN) is an internationally organized, non-profit corporation that has responsibility for Internet Protocol (IP) address space allocation, protocol identifier assignment, generic (gTLD) and country code (ccTLD) Top-Level Domain name system management, and root server system management functions.**

What your government is trying could be compared as hijacking the Red Cross because they have Red Cross center in the US ... You just making yourself look like laughing stock from anyone who as two bits of senses. "

you're a moron, they still answer to the Dept. of Commerce.

"No Idea , ask your government , it dont make snese to me this days , same thing happened with Lenovo ( china company who bought IBM desktop division ) , congress said , hey its US we must stop china from taking our technology , guess what genius , they've been making IBM computer there for almost 15 years now ... "
the concern was for the server market not as much the PC market. Believe everything you read in the media, well you shouldn't, as a former govt. emplpoyee I know the real story.

"Nope , its not yet considered a communication mean , legally that is , hence it does not offer the same level of protection to all users , last time I looked all communication are reglemented by the UN , they've been doing them for years , you did not knew that I guess , there also the illegal stuff that get closed by ISP , but the pedophile just change ISP when found , etc ... etc ...
"
and your beloved UN will do what against the pedophiles and scum out there? I'll give you a hint...nothing.

"Yes because the US as nothing to do with it , but there trying to imply they do , its funny as hell , but its getting ridiculous now ... so stop that , please."

we have the root servers here...you don't... that is something you don't have. Besides if it were such a big deal...then why are the Euros, Chinese and others whining. If the US has nothing to do with it than leave it be...oh wait can't have that because it's in the US. We all know if it's against the US it must be good.

Reply Score: 1

RE: re:Moulinneuf
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 17:19 UTC in reply to "re:Moulinneuf"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"state sources please."

http://europa.eu.int/abc/governments/index_en.htm

Europe is more then 1 country

"Where is the world corruption ranking list."

US ... Ask a real journalist at your local newspaper.

"Sounds like someone has a case of ADS (American Derangement Syndrome)"

Thats what the specialist who analyzed you called it ?
I dont have a problem with myself seeing as I am a real American I just happen to be from CANADA. I have a problem with certain US idiots yes.

"where everything stated about the US must be bad"

The US where behind the creation of the UN , thats not a bad thing for me ...

"regardless of actual facts"

I faill to see any facts at all coming from you. Care to point them out for me ?

"Like Europe is benevelont huh?"

It dont work that way the US is not good because in your mind Europe is bad , you dont even know what Europe mean and is.

"They are just better at corruption than we are since they have had 1000 years to perfect it."

No , in that area your ahead of everyone else.

"You can add that to the raping and plundering of the world for there own uses...must get tiring doing it for that long."

Again your the absolute best in that area too.

"Not at all"

Its not because you are in a conflict that its a world war , 60 years since the last one , thats there only real job.

"the turn thier back on resolutions they pass"

No , but there allowed to change there mind like say when they get faulty report ...

"turn thier back on Rwanda ..."

Rwanda as blamed directly the US for most of there problems ...

Somalia as blamed directly the US for most of there problems ...

"haven't solved the Bosnia-Serbia "

US involvment ...

"Chenchya crises"

US involvment ...

"even though they're in thier own back yard.. "

The entire planet is there problem , thats why there the UN ( United Nations )

"so no...they haven't done a good job."

Actually they do , no World War , thats there only job ...

"you're a moron"

No , but I get down to your level.

"they still answer to the Dept. of Commerce."

Giving someone a report does not make one answer to someone else ...

"the concern was ... I know the real story. "

Wich story your going to tell the "Football one" , the "missile silo one" , "the echellon one" , "the etc ..." . There called story because there made up ... Please ...

"and your beloved UN ...nothing."

There not the US ;-) , they actually have great success with getting at them and imprisonning them.

"we have the root servers here...you don't"

Nope , buts its funny that you think you do. The US citizens actually paid for some of them tru governement financing and private corporations , there in America do.

"that is something you don't have."

You would be really surprised to know the reality. People think India is the #1 outsourcing for IT in the US , its actually CANADA.

"Besides if it were such a big deal...then why are the Euros, Chinese and others whining."

The only one we all see whining is the US , I should be precise some vocal clueless idiots in the US citizenship and in the US governments.

"If the US has nothing to do with it than leave it be"

Nobody is touching any structure , we are just making Internet communication part of the global communication agreements as an offical mean of communication as it should always have been included from the start.

"oh wait can't have that because it's in the US"

Keep thinking that ... No really , we like it that you think that way.

"We all know if it's against the US it must be good."

Must be one of those days when you think the US is not part of the UN and where you did not take your pills and see enemy everywhere ... and where your delusionnal about whats the reality.

The only real enemy the US as is itself. Your only hurting yourself.

Reply Score: 1

re:Moulinneuf
by bentman78 on Tue 15th Nov 2005 18:18 UTC
bentman78
Member since:
2005-11-15

As I said, you suffer from ADS, no point in aguing with you at all.

"Any jouranalist or newspaper" yeah...where. I can say Candas corrupt and get some journalist to write about it. This has to be the most moot point you make so far..along with the many others you state..

Reply Score: 1

RE: re:Moulinneuf
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 20:19 UTC in reply to "re:Moulinneuf"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Inventing sickness to win an argument , how low can you get ... I guess your point whas not on solid ground at all.

I said :

"US ... Ask a real journalist at your local newspaper. "

Not in my localities , not from my chosen journalist , unlike you I am going for unbiased trusted source, and whas assuming your from the US or that you would get one from there. Not even one I would pick.

I also said :

"The US where behind the creation of the UN , thats not a bad thing for me ."

your right you have no point to argument , there whas nothing to discuss with you.

Reply Score: 1

SOLUTION!
by Smartpatrol on Tue 15th Nov 2005 18:21 UTC
Smartpatrol
Member since:
2005-07-06

I vote for Iran to control the internet! Sharia internet law!

1. If you surf to a porn site, Death will be the penalty
2. If you order any pork based product over the internet, Death will be the penalty
3. If you visit any non-muslim website, death will be the penalty.
4. If you download any non-sharia law approved propaganda, Death will be the penalty
5. If you do not obey this fatwa, Death will be the penalty

*This satire brought to you by the free people of the United States creator and current stewards of the internet.

Reply Score: 0

trayuscore
Member since:
2005-07-06

"Please explain something to me , US idiots ( wich is not the majority of US citizen thankfully ) , always say the UN is irrelevant , inneficient , corrupt and that they never do anything , but always argue against what they , the UN , are trying to do , if something is irrelevant why do they feel the need to oppose it "

Okay, anti-US idiot. It is irrelevant. It does almost almost nothing to stop the various brushfire wars going on in the third world and is unable to reign in even small members like North Korea and Iraq. If small nations won't follow the U.N.'s resolutions and can get away with it, why should any nation? Thus the U.N. is a failure as a security organization. As an aid agency it has some worth, but that's it. The U.N. is nothing but a way for nations to voice opinions. It has no teeth.

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"Okay, anti-US idiot."

I am not anti-US , but then again you think yourself as pro US when your not and are whats wrong with its vocal minority today ...

"It is irrelevant."

Then leave the UN ... if its irrelevant ...

"It does almost almost nothing to stop the various brushfire wars going on in the third world and is unable to reign in even small members like North Korea and Iraq."

What can I say the UN is there to prevent World War , Not play and push the US warmonger agenda.

Iraq whas under total UN control , no one whas dying , you unileterally lied to the world and decided you could take them on by yourself , by doing an illegal war , GOOD JOB , you failed! Where not dumb enough to go in there with you still there , you shoot your own allies and there blaming everything on you !

North Korea is full of problem the least of wich is you failling to delivering on your promise to give them oil in order for them not to make a nuclear arsenal. You dont even have enough oil to suffice your own country and are promising others what you dont have and once again fail to deliver on the promise you yourself decided to make.

"If small nations won't follow the U.N.'s resolutions and can get away with it"

Iraq is at war with the US , wich illegally invaded them , sorry YOU f--kED UP !

North Korea is another problem entirely created by you , again sorry YOU f--kED UP !

If the UN add been involved CANADA , BRASIL , SAOUDI ARABIA , RUSSIA , could have delivered OIL , Even IRAQ etc ...!

"why should any nation?"

Because its the UN , your on its security Council your suppose to show the example , they all follow the US attitudes ...

"Thus the U.N. is a failure as a security organization. "

No World War in 60 years. for me its a total success all the rest they do count too , but hey you think they do nothing , wich show how disconnected from the subject you discuss you are.

"As an aid agency it has some worth, but that's it."

Some worth , man are you delusionnal ...

"The U.N. is nothing but a way for nations to voice opinions. It has no teeth."

I tought the teeth of the UN whas the US , after all you helped create the UN , I guess you dont belive in your own product and own idea , seeing as how you disregarded your own venerated constituion along with the UN.

Secretary-General Kofi Annan is a man of Peace , but do not make the mistake to think that the UN as no fist.

He only need to ask ...

Reply Score: 1

Honestly
by trayuscore on Tue 15th Nov 2005 20:23 UTC
trayuscore
Member since:
2005-07-06

Any excuse to bash America, even a forum like this one...except of course when the Europeans need us for something like Bosnia. The same goes for the U.N. Need the Iraqis kicked out of Kuwait? Let the Americans do most of the dying. Just like in Korea. French got us into Vietnam, and we certainly did enough dying there. And even though the French helped us out in the American Revolution, we more than repaid that favor.

See, here's how it really works. Europeans need a major bad guy to hold them together in their fragile coalition. It used to be the Nazis, then the Soviets, and now it's America's because you're running out of excuses. So if America ever turns it eyes totally inward, outright ignores the Europeans and the rest of the world, you can go back to your Napoleons, Hitlers and other petty dictators to carve up the European map because you sure won't be getting along forever. How long do you think the Germans are going to tolerate weak economies like France dragging down the EU? And all those old issues and rivalries between the nations of Europe are not dead and buried, they're just waiting to re-emerge when the Europeans no longer have a bad guy to protest against in the streets. You'll go back to killing each other because it's what you Europeans do best. You think we do alot of it? It's only because you taught us how.

Reply Score: 1

learn what honesty is ...
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 22:23 UTC in reply to "Honestly"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Its not America who is getting a bashing , not even the little Etats-Unians , the only thing getting bashed is the idea that the US might ever have been doing all those things alone and who felt the greater cost.

Bosnia , I dont know the Bosniac felt it the most and it whas a UN mission , wich whas not US only ...

Operation Desert Storm , yes I think Kuwaitis did most of the dying at first then Irakians. Again the US certainly whas not alone on that one.

Korea , what about the Korean and all the UN member who died ? nope forget about them right ...

Off course the French pushed you into Vietnam , they lure you in with freedom fries ... The Vietnamese did not suffer in that one nope siry just the poor little Etats-Unians.

Like you could ever give a country to the French , you let them down in both World War , by staying home like tru coward until it whas won and done , and you insult them afterwards as to hide that simple facts ...

All I see is that the US need an enemy and someone to blame for its mistake , your like little kids who never take responsabilty for what they did or learn from there past mistakes , your are deficient in conscience and are always allzeimer concerning your past.

You should be really ashamed to tarnish the name of all those American who defended freedom and your way of life and whose lesson and good name your trying to associate with when you dont even deserve what they have provided you.

The UN whas there creation , your freedom whas there gift to you for wich they paid the ultimate price , I am sick of this thread and of all those who call themself American and who do not know what Americans means and what America stand for.

Reply Score: 1

re:Moulinneuf
by bentman78 on Tue 15th Nov 2005 22:01 UTC
bentman78
Member since:
2005-11-15

why the UN shouldn't have control:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20051114/pl_usnw/study_predicts_politi...

from the BBC: "Governments want more influence over the internet "

As I noted earlier, it's anti-US so it must be good. And don't talk about being a solider or serviceman. I was one and unless you were you have no right to talk about what it's like. The US serviceman is taught to adhere to Geneva conventions.

I know Europe isn't one country you nunce...However with the EU it acts as a collective to those countries "exclusive" enough to take part.

Canada isn't all roses you know..how long did it take ti get independence from the the UK...200 years or there about. Still swear alliegance to them when you take public office don't you. They still have a rep. in parliment as well...

The internet is fine where it is..you can argue your moot points all day. Go ahead and come up with more anti-American puke as well, it exposes you for the raving moonbat you are.

Reply Score: 1

RE: re:Moulinneuf
by Moulinneuf on Tue 15th Nov 2005 22:58 UTC in reply to "re:Moulinneuf"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

You said :

"no point in aguing with you at all."

I guess your words are as meaningless as you are.

"As I noted earlier, it's anti-US so it must be good."

You are anti-US ... Your Anti Americans and Anti America , your just to dumb to see it.

"And don't talk about being a solider or serviceman."

I whas talking about the duty of a Soldier not Solider ...

"I was one and unless you were you have no right to talk about what it's like."

No , you where not ...

"The US serviceman is taught to adhere to Geneva conventions. "

The rest of the Planet is told to follow it ( the Entire thing , not what our Country specificaly like in it ) or face the consequence ...

"I know Europe isn't one country you nunce."

Its a Continent ... just like America ...

"However with the EU it acts as a collective to those countries "exclusive" enough to take part."

What you failed to see is that even among Americans Country and even with the rest of the planet , all in all you where a very little minority , even with the one you bought. But hey "Only" The EU whas against you ...

"Canada isn't all roses you know."

It aint became a shame of its former self like the US is now because of a minority.

"how long did it take ti get independence from the the UK...200 years or there about. "

It took the time it did because we did it with honor , we fought TWO WORLD WAR with honor with our Ally , oh yes and you at the end of both , from start to finish , then once it whas all done , we received our Country as a gift for service rendered as horable people , we did not steal it because we did not like tax , we won it , no weapon whas fired , no one whas killed , nothing whas taken that which whas not given to us as a reward for remarkable service rendered.

"Still swear alliegance to them when you take public office don't you."

Nope , its only a treasured tradition out of respect , we even have our on constitution.

"They still have a rep. in parliement as well..."

Nope , its a symbolic figure who just happen to signify our seperation from power and armed force as she ( yes its s ahe is at the command of the entire Canadian Force ) is there to remind us that with great power come great responsability.

"The internet is fine where it is"

I agree , you just dont know where it is ...

"you can argue your moot points all day."

I aint arguing anything with you.

"Go ahead and come up with more anti-American puke as well,"

I dont insult myself ... Your not even a Real American , you dont know what being American means or is , at all.

"it exposes you for the raving moonbat you are."

no point in arguing with you at all... unlike you I mean it , this thread is done for me , feel free to spew your bulshit all you whant.

Reply Score: 1

No matter...a "deal" has been struck
by bentman78 on Wed 16th Nov 2005 17:23 UTC
bentman78
Member since:
2005-11-15

People can now stop whining:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/internet/11/16/internet.summit.ap/inde...

It's a good thing the US help onto. Politics and Internet don't mix...it was fine how it was and should be left that way. Whatever whiny Europeans and Canucks say, it was built here it would stay here...and it is...:)

Reply Score: 1