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Thats the Red Hat logo. Fedora didnt have one before.

That was proposed and not scheduled.

You only need the first 2 CDs for a default installation. Much better than SuSE who require all 5 CDs for a default install.

If you want packages that aren't included in a default install, just use yum to get them.

I was of the idea there are more java fans than not in the Linux realm. I see more linux adoptions from looking for a platform to run tomcat than any other.

It's less about which one is best than about giving users choice, IMO.

I find it strange that they didn't find a few loose Mb on those FIVE CDs to put Mono on. Bah, there must be some Mono RPMs lying around somewhere. Still, I find it disappointing on their part.

Well, the decision to not ship Mono doesn't really have anything to do with their Java strategy (believe it or not), but rather with the fact that Red Hat won't ship Mono for legal reasons.

No, Red Hat haven't come out and said exactly what those reasons are, but they've made it clear that it's a legal decision and not a political one. And I don't see why they'd lie about that. (And it's more understandable they'd keep quiet if it's legal than if it'd been political)

That said, it's pretty much a nonissue since Mono packages are easy to come by.

Well, the decision to not ship Mono doesn't really have anything to do with their Java strategy (believe it or not), but rather with the fact that Red Hat won't ship Mono for legal reasons.

Well, it's not just legal reasons but the fact that Red Hat want to get into the Java application server business. They can pretend that isn't the case but it is, and fair enough. There's actually a market there.

All of this "we can't include this for legal reasons" crap by many distributions is just so they can take something out in the free, community version and include a replacement in the paying version and chicken out on any possible legal issues. Suse, Red Hat and all the others are doing open source a serious disservice there.

Mono and .Net are patent encumbered. Fedora comes with only truly free software, free in every sense including open source and free of patents. Mono violates some of Microsoft's patents, Microsoft just doesn't sue them (most likely because they'd be charged as a monopoly abusing their power). This same patent issue is why MP3s aren't supported natively. Sure you can install MP3 support and Mono on your own, but Fedora itself comes with only truly free software. It should be noted that it is the only distro that does this, even Debian violates a few patents. Its good to see Fedora sticking to the free software principles.
-Steve

This under discussion

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/FedoraLegalIssues

They don't put Mono on Fedora, for the same reasons they don't put it on their RedHat products.

And the reasons are: potential legal issues -- if it's not 100% free, it doesn't go in, simple as that.

To prevent the usual avalanche of "Will it have support for MP3, DVD, NTFS, <your favorite patented technology here>... ?" questions, here's a link:

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems

Seems odd that the Fedora devs dismiss Mono but warmly embrace Java when Java is patented as well...?

Not in the same way. All Sun's trademarks and patents relate to the Java name and their own implementation of Java. It does not rule out another completely different implementation of Java, but you can't call it Java unless you put it through a certification process - which you pay for.

Microsoft's ECMA stuff is different. You make your own implementation derived from those specifications, but those specifications are subject to patents and any potential Microsoft licensing of them and the ECMA does nothing to stop that. They are also specific to Microsoft's .Net implementation. For example, if you were to implement similar techniques from a higher level in Java you'd be a lot safer simply because the patent texts specify anything that implements the ECMA specifications or uses .Net. Since you're not using them Microsoft is going to have a much harder time, and they're simply designed to protect Microsoft's investment in .Net.

"It's funny how they talk about legal issues and not being able to include things like MP3 support, when the distro is *100% free in terms of cost*."

Providing something for free doesnt free you from legal liability.

"I believe Ubuntu plays MP3s out of the box, why can't Fedora Core?"

Anything of the open source distributions like Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu dont include mp3 support by default.

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats

Mandriva Free (100% free software) plays MP3s by default. These threatening envelopes keep arriving from the Fraunsomethingorother, but we just ignore them.

Well, I thing this is the right way to deal with the problem. Excuse me but this: "Fedora Suggests: Consider using a graphics adapter from Intel or any other manufacturer...." is ridiculous. That's why we are not going to see 3d accelerated desktop on linux in the near future.
I also use kubuntu and the only thing to do to get all of this "forbidden" stuff is enable universe and multi universe repositories. In fedora I have to use apt-get-rpm and freshrpms repositories.

There is something wrong with the whole idea.

"Sun's Java is proprietary software. Fedora includes and actively develops GCJ which can be used run many Java programs."

So what is the difference between GCJ and Mono? This may be a stupid question but I genuinely want to know. Obviously a US legal differences must exist between the two for Fedora to include one but not the other. Please enlighten me!

I asked elsewhere about this recently. Apparently the patents (Kodak's and others) that cover Java only cover the virtual machine aspect of it, so any free software Java virtual machine is subject to patent claims. gcj is not a virtual machine, though. It's basically a compiler for Java. I don't think there's any patent covering this functionality.

The key issue with java reimplementations versus .net reimplementations is that even though both are covered by patents, in all the important areas Sun has legally released people from any patent royalties.

Microsoft on the other hand has very conpicuously *not* done this. They have retained the right to charge a RAND (reasonable and non descriminitory) licensing fee for the use of any/all of there patents. That means that at any time in the future, MS can decide to charge everyone who wants to produce .net programs, for example, 20 cents per binary. That may not seem like much but that is a)completely unacceptable for an OSS project b)would be equivalent to a bullet in the head to GNOME if Mono became deeply integrated and c) totally within Microsoft's rights!

The apis in questions have been standardized by ECMA however this standardization does not remove Microsoft's right to charge this RAND fee.

Ximian/Novel have claimed for a long time that they have received permission from Microsoft. However, if you look closely at the "permission" they cite in their faq, you will see that this permission is nothing more than a casual email of the project lead for .net stating (in his own words) his *belief* that MS would not exercize their right to charge a RAND fee.

As to the comment that only Redhat/Fedora is not using Mono, that is completely untrue. In fact, of all the large distros *only* Novel is using Mono. Only Novel. The other distros that include Mono are run by small no-nothing groups if independent developers and gnome enthusiasts.

The issue with Java patents is not an issue with Sun. Kodak holds patents which cover areas of Java functionality. Sun had to pay Kodak a large settlement a couple of years back in order to license these patents. Anyone else who provides a Java VM without licensing Kodak's patents is liable to be sued by Kodak.

Sun had to pay Kodak a large settlement a couple of years back in order to license these patents. Anyone else who provides a Java VM without licensing Kodak's patents is liable to be sued by Kodak.

No actually, that's untrue. Nothing was actually proven in court at all regarding infringement, and all that happened was an out of court settlement. There are no details on exactly what that settlement was, but:

By dismissing the case "with prejudice," Judge Telesca is indicating that the door is closed to Eastman Kodak Co. filing suit elsewhere in this matter. To do so would risk its infringement claim being dismissed completely.

Which of course, sets a precedent. Kodak cannot get involved in anything like this again. Basically, Sun settled out of court for a small $92 million just to get Kodak off its back regarding Java. Getting on with business was more important and less costly.

The patents are also ridiculously broad, and in a time when the courts are being choked up with such claims the chances of companies suing and being successful will get ever smaller.

Edited 2005-11-24 23:04

It looks like they use QtCurve theme customized to resemble Clearlooks. Fedora is more Gnome than KDE centric so making KDE more gnomish seems like a smart move. Suse does something similar, they have GTK-Qt theme default for GTK2 apps.

The theme on the screenshots is still the old Bluecurve QT and kwin theme which has mainly been unchanged since Redhat 8.0. I hope they will upgrade the default theme for FC5 final.

1)No. waiting for the final version
2)Yes
3)No. Package movement between core and extras has not happened. Might have some changes before the final version.
4)You can spin Fedora Extras ISO images or use yum. Installer uses yum as the backend now so getting extras support in the installer is planned in a future release

Thanks. So Extras is available as a downloadable ISO now? That is great!! Can you provide an FTP link for this?

Cheers!

" So Extras is available as a downloadable ISO now?"

No. Not currently. Its is possible to do it . If you are interested in making that happen, post to the fedora-devel list.

I'll lobby them for it. It would be extremely convenient for people like me with high speed internet at work but only a 56 Kb modem access at home. I could download and burn the extras at work and then install them on my Linux box at my leisure.

Are there any plans to drop KDE or build two distros with different DEs on the same base, as Ubuntu have done? It would seem to make sense, especially if they want to reduce the number of disks.

KDE support seems to have been a token gesture for a while now. It would be great if the Fedora tema could fully focus on just one DE.

You mean moving KDE in Extras repository? I can hear Fedora KDE crying for outrage about that one. Fedora version just disables features such as transparency to avoid choking some of PC hardware (not all of them can support effect such as transparency without draining memory or cpu).

It is up to users to contribute to Fedora KDE instead of whining.

I found your comments rather offensive. Firstly, it's long been known that Redhat has favoured Gnome (even sponsoring it and developers). This favouritism has been evident for a long, long, long while now, with Gnome being the default desktop, and KDE being butchered badly. Very badly. It's amazing to see the Gnome users quite happy with KDE being treated as a has been on distributions, but if any distributions make KDE the default, they're suddenly all up in arms! What gives?

As to your comments that it's up to the community, KDE packages are a lot easier to create from src than Gnome packages. If the Fedora developers can do that, then why do they do such a botched job of KDE? Next they'll be saying that you can't include KDE or QT since it's not a real "GPL" license and is therefore a 'forbidden item'.

I haven't used Redhat since RH 7.3 and truthfully told, they've lost the plot, and their offerings are far from being good. As long as Fedora/Redhat keeps going on it's "we really only care about Gnome" path, I won't use it, and I most certainly won't recommend it. In fact, I'll go out of my way to trash it. That's called user opinion :-) I'm not obliged to talk nice about things that I don't like (or that show no respect for myself as a user/consumer).

Dave

For this very reason, I think Fedora would be better to drop KDE altogether. By not fully suporting it, they are only antagonising the KDE community like our friend who I am replying to.

Either drop KDE and pour all resources into making GNOME as good a spossible or support them both, possibly by using a Ubuntu/Kubuntu style-model.

Hmmm... No kde support in Fedora means I'd never use it again. I know the KDE support isn't stellar right now but Gnome is so unforgivably broken compared to KDE that if it was the only choice I'd just have to switch.

Gnome developers consider their users idiots and restrict their choice. Why bother?

but if any distributions make KDE the default, they're suddenly all up in arms!

You must have mixed something up.

morgoth,

So if you haven't used rh since 7.3, how would you know if there offerings are far from good? Just seems like an odd statement, pretty hard to judge it if you haven't used it in 6 releases.

Is it that far fetch that most distrobuitions only put there time into one DE? Really, the "butcheredness" you talk about for the most part is the theme/style, is that not easily changable?

You will go out of your way to trash something you know nothing about? I hope the people that listen to you, know the value there getting.

Let me rephrase my earlier post, since I wasn't very clear (my fault). I haven't used Redhat as my sole Linux desktop since 7.3. I have used Fedora Core 4 on my backup PC and didn't think much of it.

My main system is Libranet GNU/Linux and just kicks it's ass from here to kingdom come. Proprietary Nvidia drivers out of the box, flash out of the box. Acrobat reader out of the box. Support for mp3s out of the box. Sadly, no support for DVD out of the box, but that is easily remedied. Oh, and we'll add Sun's java to that list, as well as real's media player. Need I say much more?

Quote: "Is it that far fetch that most distrobuitions only put there time into one DE? Really, the "butcheredness" you talk about for the most part is the theme/style, is that not easily changable?"

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I'm no fan of Ubuntu style distributions that only support one desktop environment. I think it's a bad way to introduce open source systems to potential customers, where choice is a good thing. I mean, if someone looks at a Linux distribution that's Gnome based and thinks that it's crap, he's going to walk away from Linux thinking it's crap. If he'd seen xfce or kde he might have had a different point of view.

Quote: "You will go out of your way to trash something you know nothing about? I hope the people that listen to you, know the value there getting."

My points above dismiss your last paragraph :-) But it's not really your fault, my previous post wasn't very clear :-)

Cheers,

Dave

I am sorry if my comments were offensive, it was unintentional. It seems you complain was about theme rather KDE itself. It is not that hard to change after all and setting KDE like the original. If you go to fedoraforum.org, you will find a lot KDE theme customized by users.


As to your comments that it's up to the community, KDE packages are a lot easier to create from src than Gnome packages.
I found both easy. I currently build gdeskletst for Fedora Extras repository which is my very first time. Once done, I will probably bring Superkaramba for KDE fans in Fedora. That is my way to contribute to Fedora community.

It is very easy to complain when someone is not part of the project.

[/i]I found both easy.[i]

Please list all depending packages for a complete Gnome desktop and the correct build-order for them.

Case closed, IMO...

Yum groupinstall "GNOME Desktop Environment" and get it installed in Fedora. Yum grouplist for the entire list of groups.

You dont need to worry about the dependency list or the build order as a end user.

Of course not, no need to be condescending. However, it would be nice if you read what the issue was about before posting.

"As to your comments that it's up to the community, KDE packages are a lot easier to create from src than Gnome packages.

I found both easy. I currently build gdeskletst for Fedora Extras repository which is my very first time.

You see? According to "Finalzone" it's easy to build Gnome from source. Please refrain from yapping about "end users." Thank you.

I will probably bring Superkaramba for KDE fans in Fedora

Sorry dude, but superkaramba is already in Fedora Extras

Good, I can focus on gDesklets then =)

Exaclty my sentiments. Unfortunately, my country is blindly following the US down exaclty the same path with recent legislation.

I just install the dvd rpms, and watch my legal DVD on my legal PC with my legal OS of choice.

// slightly off topic...
I do find it quite interesting, based on a poll at a local LUG, that we take copyright quite seriously and observe such issues. Also a poll taken a local university, asking what OS, do you use pirated software / music / videos... 75% pirated (windows) and 5% pirated (linux / mac).

Well, my honest opinion is that it's about time other countries started growing backbones and blacklisting the US and starting trade embargoes, as well as ignoring any silly laws like the DMCA or the Patriot Act. It's about time that enough of them started creating an uproar in the United Nations and forcing the removal of veto powers, and then laying down the law to the US, and if need be, kicking them off the United Nations and enforcing trade embargoes. Enough is enough, the rest of the world isn't the US, and I see no reasons why the citizens of the free world should be forced by their irresponsible governments to follow US style laws. If enough countries stood together and did this, the US would start to change it's policy and laws and be less intrusive on the rest of the world.

Dave

"as well as ignoring any silly laws like the DMCA or the Patriot Act."

Most countries are ignoring them. U.S law does not appy outside U.S territory.

Unfortunately, Australia is not a country which is ignoring them.

Exactly. Neither does the UK. In fact, most European countries are recognising the DMCA and DRM. That kills your comment pretty easily :-) I really wish what you said in your comment was true, but sadly, it's not.

Dave

SUSE OSS version doesnt support mp3 by default either.

Suse is American (Novell owns it).
OpenBSD was in large part funded by the United States Defense Department up until recently. It still receives funding from various American government agencies.

Fedora is a good distro, download it, install it, and then install an rpm for mp3 support and an rpm for dvd support and you're all done.

I can see 5 ISOs where I am downloading them from:

ftp.planetmirror.com/pub/fedora

oh okz. well Maybe they need to change what they said on the distrowatch of it being only 4 CD set, to a 5cd set, but still its smaller than Mandriva, isnt is like 7 CD's?

Edited 2005-11-24 04:52

Mandriva Free is 3 CDs. There's a 4 CD edition for standard level Club members. Powerpack and Powerpack+ are 7 each, they're the boxed versions and also what Silver and above Club members get.

Because of major changes going on such as:
- implementing yum as backend for Anaconda, the Fedora installer
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/AnacondaWorkItems?highlight=%...
- integrating Xen into Anaconda
- Enhancement of SELinux system. That is probably the reason why Wikipedia and Sourceforge choose Fedora.
- New logo


It would be great if it was closer to the GNOME release cycle, like Ubuntu, given GNOME is the default desktop

Some of Gnome features are from Fedora/Redhat developers such as Evince (Fedora Gnome 2.10), Sabayon (system administration tool to manage GNOME desktop settings), Istanbul (a desktop recorder), NetworkManager.
http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/RedHatContributions

MP3's can freely distributed legally as long as the distributor doesn't profit.

That still does not change the fact MP3 is a patented technology because its encoding/decoding tools of MP3 cannot be modified by distributor like Fedora/Red Hat. Therefore, it cannot be included in Fedora. Please read again http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems
and http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html which perfectly give reason why.
Let's stop beating a dead horse once for all.

Edited 2005-11-24 10:03

That still does not change the fact MP3 is a patented technology because its encoding/decoding tools of MP3 cannot be modified by distributor like Fedora/Red Hat. Therefore, it cannot be included in Fedora. Please read again http://www.fedoraproject.org/wiki/ForbiddenItems
and http://www.mp3licensing.com/royalty/software.html which perfectly give reason why.
Let's stop beating a dead horse once for all.

Ok, this is the last I will discuss this. It won't be a dead horse until people stop saying things like "MP3's aren't supported in XYX distro due to legal reasons"

It makes about as much sense as saying:

- "Workers at company XYZ must wear a tie due to legal reasons"

- "Distro XYZ uses XFCE and not GNOME due to legal reasons"

- "A vegetarian cannot eat meat due to legal reasons"

see what I mean?

What you pointed out, Fedora's "Forbidden Items" is simply their own policy that they impose for themselves. In which case it would simply not be their criteria for being non-proprietary. In other words, it's a subjective reason that has nothing to do with the legality of including MP3 support.

"
What you pointed out, Fedora's "Forbidden Items" is simply their own policy that they impose for themselves. In which case it would simply not be their criteria for being non-proprietary. In other words, it's a subjective reason that has nothing to do with the legality of including MP3 support."

Incorrect. MP3 support has not been provided out of the box in Debian ( to provide an example) for precisely the same reasons. ForbiddenItems provides a *legal* analysis approved by the Fedora professional legal team. If the software implementation in under GPL or LGPL it requires a patent grant to be compatible. Otherwise that is a direct licensing conflict.

Holy crap, it's not that hard to install mp3 support! Who the hell cares if FC includes it by default?

If you can't figure out how to install packages perhaps you've got more serious issues than mp3 support.

Not only is this issue a dead horse, it's the worlds most well-beaten dead horse!

It is *illegal* to include MP3 support without paying licensing fees, do some research. Just use OGG for your music or install an MP3 support rpm.

re:gcj is one alternative for java VM, but not usable, because don't implement all java classes (the lack of awt and swing are importante issures) makes gcj for now a toy!


Fedora needs gcj to run following applications out of the box:
Elipcse - one of the most popular IDE
Azureus - most popular bittorent client
RssOwl - perfect RSS reader (IMHO the best)

...and they use it to run jboss, tomcat ?

Not sure about jboss, tomcat uses gcj.

re: I tried Fedora core 4 on my spare HD about a month ago, man is it slower. I know selinux has a small performance penalty but disable that debugging in the kernel. It really is one of the slowest distros


How do you messure speed?
And what distro among usable is the faster?
Do you know who developed NPTL? ;-)

It just feels slower and less responsive, Debian and Slackware are faster, more responsive.

Edited 2005-11-24 11:36

It just feels slower and less responsive, Debian and Slackware are faster, more responsive.

I feel different and tests(mp3 compression, jboss startup) show the same.

Maybe you forgot to disable several demons and SELinux?

"
Timed with stopwatch. Compared to Debian, Mepis, PCLinuxOS (fastest on my hardware), Mandriva 2006 and Knoppix."

Not sure if you compared the same software and services. Would love to see some analysis using bootchart (bootchart.sf.net) to fedora-test list. Stop watches dont tell us whats slowing down the system. Benchmarking software like the above do.

No, join the mailing list, put in feature request in bugzilla.

Whats wrong with yum?

Gnome menu wasn't lock in 4.

They hack on openoffice.

Were are you getting your info??

Downloads
=========
A DVD image is unfortunately not available for FC5test1 due, but we do
plan on having it for test2. CD and network installation are available.
Please read the Important Warnings below in this announcement for more
details.

This is only test 1. Usaully, major features started in Test 2. Patience.