Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 13th Dec 2005 09:47 UTC
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y Without tip-toeing around the matter, Linus Torvalds made his preference in the GNOME vs. KDE matter quite clear on the GNOME-usability list: "I personally just encourage people to switch to KDE. This 'users are idiots, and are confused by functionality' mentality of Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do. Please, just tell people to use KDE." Also, "Gnome seems to be developed by interface nazis, where consistently the excuse for not doing something is not 'it's too complicated to do', but 'it would confuse users'." Update: More of the discussion here.
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Huh?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Swearing, references to the nazis, "Please, just tell people to use <a free software project before another free software project>" and misspellings?

Was he drunk, or is this an imposter? It's certainly not the Linus that I've come to know in the news.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Huh?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:27 UTC in reply to "Huh?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Then you don't know Linus ;) That's his style.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Huh?
by VenomousGecko on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:52 UTC in reply to "Huh?"
VenomousGecko Member since:
2005-07-06

This is on a mailing list on the OSDL. This is not a news release. This is Linus being natural, for better or for worse. This is a guy who has a lot of contact within the community and sees more of a project then most of us on here so I think his frustration with the "progress" of GNOME is spilling over a bit. FTR, I use GNOME primarily but I can relate to some of his misgivings.

Reply Score: 5

Hahahaha.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:37 UTC in reply to "Huh?"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Was he drunk, or is this an imposter?

If he was not drunk, he should be!

> It's certainly not the Linus that I've come to know in the news.

But it's the good ol' Linus I've been reading in the last 6 or 7 years. A kind of reversed Eugenia, if you will... works the same way, but he defends the righteous points of view ;-)

doL-b

Reply Score: 0

Everybody is entitled to their opinion
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I still prefer Gnome interface to KDE.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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I also prefer Gnome Interface and simplicity to some extent, but dude i also think they're going just too far. As for KDE, sorry but I simply hate moving from a neat Applications menu to a long list of i-dont-know-what-the-hell-this-is-here-for-or-if-i-will-ever-use-it items. OH and not to mention that the tool bars are also too populated.

Reply Score: 0

v balls
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:06 UTC
Torvalds?
by ankitmalik on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:06 UTC
ankitmalik
Member since:
2005-07-06

I can't believe he said that! Surely, he deserves the 'Troll of the year' award. OSNEWS trolls just can't beat him no matter how hard they try!

Reply Score: 5

RE: Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:30 UTC in reply to "Torvalds?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Surely, he deserves the 'Troll of the year' award.

Yeah, that's really easy to say, without answering directly his claims. Yeah, it is a "strong" opinion ... or is it?

And when I tell people that, they tend to nod, and have some story of
their own why they had a feature they used to use, but it was removed
because it might have been confusing.


I have a very similar experience - am I troll now? Is an input field in the file dialog really that confusing? Is navigation mode really that confusing (I know it's there, but the default was changed arbitrarily imho)? Is $insert_functionality_here really that confusing?

I understand that such an opinin will undoubtedly lead to flame wars, but is this really his fault? If you really take a step back and look at it - well, it is an opinion, nothing more, nothing less, and the validity of his claims can be disputed or agreed with. That is, it is not just an offhand remark, it is an experience that many share.

This is so typical: criticize GNOME - you are labeled a troll, even if you are Linus. Even better: get modded up because you labeled someone critical of GNOME a troll. Way to go folks.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Torvalds?"
Anonymous Member since:
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This is so typical: criticize GNOME - you are labeled a troll, even if you are Linus. Even better: get modded up because you labeled someone critical of GNOME a troll. Way to go folks.

Well, calling GNOME developers f--king idiots and interface nazis, no matter the opinion, is totally insulting and trollish. Now, if he didn't stick to insults and such, it wouldn't be easy to label as a troll.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Torvalds?
by CrimsonScythe on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Torvalds?"
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

I think you need to read those emails again. He's saying that GNOME is treating their users as idiots, not that their developers are idiots. I can't really see why anybody modded you up for that. If they actually read TFA, that is...

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Torvalds?
by NxStY on Wed 14th Dec 2005 15:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Torvalds?"
NxStY Member since:
2005-11-12

He's saying that gnome is developed for idiots which is basicly the same thing as saying "if you like gnome you are an idiot".

So this is pure trolling. The "interface nazis" stuff too. I really had higher thoughts of Linus.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Torvalds?
by biteydog on Wed 14th Dec 2005 15:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Torvalds?"
biteydog Member since:
2005-10-06

>>He's saying that gnome is developed for idiots which is basicly the same thing as saying "if you like gnome you are an idiot".

No it's not. Anyway Linus Is entitled to an opinion - we all are - even trolls ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Torvalds?
by CrimsonScythe on Wed 14th Dec 2005 15:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Torvalds?"
CrimsonScythe Member since:
2005-07-10

Well, I would tend to disagree with you. Though this has probably been over-analyzed a gazillion times, which is a lot, I believe that his point was that they're dumbing it down in order for complete idiots to be able to use it. Though these are less than diplomatic terms, I guess he's trying to get across is that he's sick of them removing and refusing to implement features that are needed, all in the name of "useability".

Also, would I be correct in saying that you believe that "if gnome is developed for newbies, then you are also a newbie if you like it"? It seems that you are just trying to cry foul just because you disagree with him...

Also, I personally take the term "interface nazi" about as harshly as "soup nazi" or "grammar nazi". I.e. not at all. If you take offense to such phrases, I suggest you stay away from mainstream media, Usenet, Slashdot, OSnews, and any other venue in which discussions are taking place.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Torvalds?
by Sphinx on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Torvalds?"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Well said that.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Torvalds?
by ankitmalik on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:31 UTC in reply to "Torvalds?"
ankitmalik Member since:
2005-07-06

Surely, he deserves the 'Troll of the year' award.

Yeah, that's really easy to say, without answering directly his claims. Yeah, it is a "strong" opinion ... or is it?


Its easy to say so not because what he said, but how he said so! I personally have a lot of gripes with the GNOME interface and I prefer KDE over GNOME any day unless they get their interface issues sorted out. But calling them 'Interface Nazis' is crap! He is a troll not for pointing out the issues but for the way he expressed his opinion!

This is so typical: criticize GNOME - you are labeled a troll, even if you are Linus.

Again, since it comes from a well- known figure [atleast in the geek circles] , it is expected that he won't put it this way! Criticism is good but there is a way to go about it! You can't just childishly call anyone a 'Nazi' specially when you are Linus yourself!

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Torvalds?"
Anonymous Member since:
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> He is a troll not for pointing out the issues but for the way he expressed his opinion!

Uhm, if the GNOME people don't know the issues by now then something seriously must have been wrong. There was and still is so much noise around GNOME that by now everyone knows what's wrong with it. Everyone knows except those developing GNOME.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Torvalds?
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Torvalds?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

But calling them 'Interface Nazis' is crap!

Sometimes you have to do it the rough way. It doesn't make you a troll. It only makes you responsible. And they fcuking are Interface Nazis.

He is a troll not for pointing out the issues but for the way he expressed his opinion!

Noo.. He's being a responsible person and acting as such. There are certain drawbacks with Gnome, and it's getting worse for each version, so somebody MUST put an end to that part of the show.

Hopefully it did so.

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Torvalds?"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Noo.. He's being a responsible person and acting
> as such.

Yes... Defend your idol and god. We know. Torvalds is a god. So even when he steps out of line he is behaving responsibly. Because Torvalds is a god who can do no wrong.

Give me a break. He is acting like an immature child. Stop defending his behavior just cause you put him on a god podium and worship the ground he walks on.

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: Torvalds?
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:15 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Torvalds?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I haven't put him on a podium and definitely don't consider him a god.

There is only one God and it's not Linux or any other man, nor anything Saudi-related.

I don't see what he's doing wrong here. He is using big words but they describe his opinion well, and he is coming with examples of things he's got an issue with.

No trolling there, no flaming there. Just another argument, and an interesting one too.

Look at Jeff Waugh who admits that Gnome has gone too far, leaving the power users behind. Exactly what Linus is complaining about.

But it took Linus to get Gnome-devs to admit it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Torvalds?
by Simba on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Torvalds?"
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

> There is only one God

There is no god. Don't start a religious debate with me. I will destroy you with academic knowledge on the subject given that I have degrees in both evolutionary biology, and ancient near eastern history.

And Linus is acting like an immature child. There is no way in hell you can defend his responses as "responsible" with his cursing and capital letters and the fact that he doesn't even understand what a logical falacy argument is.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Torvalds?
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:43 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Torvalds?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

There is a God.

I'm ready every day to do battle against any jerk considering himself better than me, because he got a nice title.

You aren't beating me (oops, destroying me) with academic knowledge, when academic knowledge is my greatest asset. To me it simply sounds like you are bragging.

And your attitude is childish, and not at all good for a debate.

Evolutionary biology has nothing to do with the question "Is there a god?"

Linus responded just like every person would when they discover something screwed up. Of course a self appointed academic jackass like you (who feels like you are a better human being), can't handle that some persons are using strong words in regard to issues they are passionate about.

Go away and force your technocracy on somebody else.

Reply Score: 0

RE[9]: Torvalds?
by matthew_i on Wed 14th Dec 2005 05:22 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Torvalds?"
matthew_i Member since:
2005-07-14

The existance of God can neither be proven or disproved. Belief in God requires faith for a reason.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Torvalds?
by Dinadan on Wed 14th Dec 2005 11:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Torvalds?"
Dinadan Member since:
2005-10-11

read the f--king article or shut up. there is no "cursing and capital letters".

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: Torvalds?
by Soulbender on Wed 14th Dec 2005 12:26 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Torvalds?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"read the f--king article or shut up. there is no "cursing and capital letters"."

You must be reading the wrong one then.
http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/00...

"f--kING IDIOT" would seem to be both in capital letters and contain cursing.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:24 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Torvalds?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Sorry dude, but it didn't take Linus saying it to make GNOME developers admit it. When I said that in some cases, GNOME has gone too far, I specifically referenced my talk at GUADEC this year. Watch the video. Listen carefully. We mature enough to know where our problems lie, thanks.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Torvalds?
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:45 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Torvalds?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Hi Jeff.

Nice to know you can admit going too far at least. I'm still annoyed with losing my fine grained control with mime-types. It was removed in 2.8 and it's quite difficult to learn the new Windows 2000 like approach used in Gnome2.8 and higher, when you've been used to other way for many many years.

I hope to see Gnome going backwards in the next releases - or at least adding some hints here and there about the more hidden elements, like typing in a file dialogue ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:19 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Torvalds?"
Anonymous Member since:
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I haven't put him on a podium and definitely don't consider him a god.

There is only one God and it's not Linux or any other man, nor anything Saudi-related.


Heheh....quote of the week ;) - and yes, Linus's appearance on the list will make some GNOME devs reflect on their current direction.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Torvalds?
by h-milch-mann on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:23 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Torvalds?"
h-milch-mann Member since:
2005-10-27

Haven't you learned by now, that there are only 2 unfallible people in the world? The pope and Linus Torvalds!
There is only one difference. You don't get burnt on the pyre anymore for critizizing the pope. I'm not so sure about questioning Linus...

Reply Score: 2

Advanced options?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I've always used GNOME, but I have to admit that the annoying lack of the "Advanced" tab on most dialogs is something that ought to be addressed to allow power users to get on with the software.

Reply Score: 5

Ladies and Gentlemen,
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:07 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Prepare for the biggest Gnome-vs-KDE flamewar ever !

Reply Score: 5

RE: Ladies and Gentlemen,
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:40 UTC in reply to "Ladies and Gentlemen,"
Anonymous Member since:
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I gotta leave my comment on this one. :-)

Reply Score: 1

This is why Microsoft will always win
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This sort of childish and down-right idiotic remark will forever make the Free Unix systems blighted if we allow them to dominate our thoughts. Simplicty, usability and not every-fuction-we-can-think-of makes Windows and commercial systems great incredibly popular.

Linus is a geek and a kernel developer - he is not an end user and I really think he needs to sit back and re-evaluate the world of free software. Too many recent problems (BitKeeper, Australia trademarks, and now this) keep blighting his reputation and cause storms of problems.

We do need to be focusing on usability and ease-of-use, and it's wrong of Linus, who is but the lead developer of just ONE of the free kernels to abuse his often-heard voice to attack a leading platform.

Reply Score: 5

psilo Member since:
2005-09-26

So, Windows is designed with simplicity, usability and lacks feature bloat? Have you ever actually used windows? Have you been looking for that list of services lately in the configuration panel? Have you seen the 'options' dialog of MS Word (2000 is the latest version I own, like millions of others)? You are completely delusional if you ascribe microsoft's success to their efforts in usability.

Reply Score: 4

Anonymous Member since:
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True, Windows in places, can be difficult too. But it has a consistent, usable interface and it's not bloated to the eye - it is bloated yes - but not to the eye.

Secondly, Word is not exactly GNOME, is it? Open Office is just as complex as Word, I grant you, but we're comparing the desktop, not the office suite or even the configuration system.

Reply Score: 0

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"But it has a consistent, usable interface and it's not bloated to the eye - it is bloated yes - but not to the eye."

I urge you to start DivX Player, Quicktime Player, MS Mediaplayer, WinAmp, Photoshop and CMD.exe.
By no stretch of the imagination are you know presented with a coherent and consistent interface.

Reply Score: 5

Anonymous Member since:
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I urge you to start DivX Player, Quicktime Player, MS Mediaplayer, WinAmp, Photoshop and CMD.exe. By no stretch of the imagination are you know presented with a coherent and consistent interface.

I urge you to start xdvi, k3b, emacs and bash. This shows that Gnome is clearly even more incoherent and inconsistent...

WMP is the only app you listed where MS is responsible for the UI (well cmd.exe but I assume that was a joke). Even MacOS X has its share of apps defying all HIGs and that despite the fact that Apple puts a lot more emphasized on enforcing them.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I urge you to start xdvi, k3b, emacs and bash."

Those arent GNOME applications and you're missing the point. The point is that Windows isnt as consistent as people want to make it out to be.

"(well cmd.exe but I assume that was a joke)"
Not at all and I wasnt referring to how you use cmd.exe but how the window looks different (on XP) and how cut-and-paste works different etc.

Reply Score: 4

Anonymous Member since:
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Those arent GNOME applications and you're missing the point. The point is that Windows isnt as consistent as people want to make it out to be.

They are just as much Gnome applications as e.g. Winamp is a Windows application. MS didn't program Winamp, it doesn't ship it, Winamp is just an app that runs on Windows. You can say the same thing about k3b.

Not at all and I wasnt referring to how you use cmd.exe but how the window looks different (on XP) and how cut-and-paste works different etc.

The whole point behind cmd.exe is to provide a different UI. The difference in the way c&p works results from the requirements of a CLI (i.e. you don't want to rob the cli of all that keybindings, especially as there are lots of legacy apps that expect those keys). Similar for many of the other differences.

Reply Score: 0

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"They are just as much Gnome applications as e.g. Winamp is a Windows application."

Nope. They are X applications, not GNOME applications.
WinAmp is a Windows application wether MS made it or not.

"The whole point behind cmd.exe is to provide a different UI."
Uh hu. Explain how the totally different Window decor makes sense.

"The difference in the way c&p works results from the requirements of a CLI (i.e. you don't want to rob the cli of all that keybindings, especially as there are lots of legacy apps that expect those keys)."

Because a lot of people runs textmode legacy apps in cmd.exe in 2005, especially with the "awesome" DOS compatibility in XP....
Either way, it is still an inconsistency and the fact of the matter is that Windows isnt as consistent as is generally touted.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Winamp is a Windows application. Winamp cannot run on other platforms that Windows.

However, Winamp isn't a Microsoft program, but it's still a Windows program.

Honestly, this is something everybody knows.

If you cannot see the difference, then OSN isn't the place for you.

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

No, they are not as much Gnome applications as Winamp is a Windows application.

They are however as much Gnome applications as Winamp is a Microsoft application, but none has said Winamp is a Microsoft application. Only you has blended being coded for Windows with as being coded by Microsoft.

Look at Totem if you want to see the Gnome media player.

And compare it to WMP written for Windows by Microsoft.

Result: Gnome is consistent - Windows is inconsistent - EVEN for programs coming from Microsoft.

Look at Gaim in Gnome, look at MSN in Windows.

Result: Gnome is consistent - Windows is inconsistent - EVEN for programs coming from Microsoft.

KDE is consistent here as well, for its own applications.

Reply Score: 1

psilo Member since:
2005-09-26

People might think that Windows is consistent, usable and bloated, because they have been using it for years. If you put a unexperienced user behind windows he/she will find it inconsistent and confusing. Examples: Why double-click on desktop-icons, but single-click in de start menu? Why should you change screen settings by right clicking on the desktop, but for all other settings I need the configuration panel?

Especially double-clicking is a terrible MS invention, but no one realizes how terrible it is. If you don't have the gymnastic skills for it, you will be dragging your desktop icons a few inches instead of double-clicking it. I've seen elder users having this problem. They still can type a letter and print it, they just need some help actually starting Word.

I'm not saying KDE or GNOME is any more usable, I am just sick and tired of people thinking Windows is the holy grail of usability DE should strive for. I've never used mac OS X intensively, but I seriously doubt it is the true holy grail of usability.

Reply Score: 5

Anonymous Member since:
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Find me an unexperienced user of computers, one who has never seen a beige box, keyboard, mice, monitor etc. Put this person in front of a computer. How long do you think it will take this person to figure out how to get to the internet - assuming this person has connectivity.

Now, in the developed world I don't think there is a sane person who has never used Windows before. So pretty much the average user has used Windows, knows about Windows, and has reprogrammed his/her brain on the Windows GUI so that even they can get to their favorite IM or Office app.

So Windows is usable to the vast majority of people because they have had 10 years of training on it - it has become intuitive. If you want people to migrate to a unix or unix-like system you first have to get their expectations right - things should have that familiar feel to them. Then slowly add other UI concepts that you all feel is superior to Windows.

If you plop an interface that they just don't get - they will just hand you the computer back and say its broken or doesn't work. Take a look at the history of any gadget or product, first impressions always count. Even in games no matter the number of patches you apply.

peace

Reply Score: 0

chris_dk Member since:
2005-07-12

I agree.

I'm sick and tired of this infighting.

Let's focus on making a better OS for the user. If we do not change our attitudes, people will never switch, because Linux people are perceived to be arrogant.

Reply Score: 2

load_mic Member since:
2005-12-13

I agree as well,

One of the strengths of Linux (or *nix in general) is that users have a CHOICE of desktop environments (among other things) regardless of distro.

The Linux community should be patting each other on the back, instead they are drawing lines in the sand.

Reply Score: 2

Jezza Member since:
2005-10-13

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Australia Patents issue was a GOOD thing. I thought so anyway...

While I think his tone was a little strong, it does just show his passion and I do not think his reputation is diminishing at all

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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I happen to agree with Linus on how he handled BitKeeper.

I don't use BitKeeper because my needs are simple and easily handled by Subversion-1.2.3.

But for the Linux kernel, there isn't anything today that matches BitKeeper in terms of relevant features and reliability.

The fanaticism regarding software licensing--particularly by GPL zealots and BSA corporate hounds--is only rivaled by religious radicals believing their version of God's opinions is the only correct one.

Both extremes are screaming so loudly that discussion about software quality and more practical licensing choices are totally outshadowed.

What's next? GPL zealots saying Public Domain source code is not "free" because it doesn't force the user to give up some of their freedom regarding how they distributed derived works?

If BitKeeper licenses weren't provided at no-cost to kernel jocks or if there was a compelling alternative at the time of the debate, I wouldn't have even bothered to comment. It just annoys me that Linux kernel development was distracted and a lot of work didn't get done because of this idiocy.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> But for the Linux kernel, there isn't anything today
> that matches BitKeeper in terms of relevant features
> and reliability.

GIT is already better than Subversion. Cannot really compare to BitKeeper (never used it) but I have got the impression that GIT is quite similar to BitKeeper (at least more alike than Subversion, CVS, etc.).

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

The problem with KDE in my mind is that it's mimicking the stupid design of Windows, with an inconsistent and overloaded, bloated UI. Gnome has gone the other way and has gone too far with a way too simplified UI.

Windows is inconsistent here there and everywhere, as I showed some time ago in some screenshots.

There is mediocre drag'n'drop in Windows, no consistency in menues, very poor scaling in regard to nominal DPI, poor theming support (all Windows versions), poor unicode support (except when using .NET).

Windows is lightyears behind all other OS'es in regard to the desktop.

Windows suffers from a very confusing design, like they didn't know what they wanted but was only copying others, and of course the "every-function-we-can-think-of-and-let-us-hide-in-the-registry-and-bl ow-up-the-system-with-regular-intervals".

Even AmigaOS 1.x is ahead of Windows in regard to usability.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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> Even AmigaOS 1.x is ahead of Windows in regard to usability.

Wrong.

AmigaOS 1.x is not ahead of Windows in any means

a) direct hardware programming,
b) custom registers,
c) no memory protection,
d) preferences spread everywhere

s:#?
env:#?
envarc:#?
prgdir:#?

text config files,
iff config files,
tooltypes config files.

It's a f--king mess compared to nowadays needs. If you want to backup something from Amiga, you need to make a full backup rather than backing up your homedir or the etc dir.

Another even bigger mess is the different toolkits

Intuition,
GadTools,
MUI,
Reaction/Classact,
NewGUI.

Etc. Though AmigaOS still have a lot of good things, no doubt. Good IPC (Exec) and some other nice aspects but without memory protection and good multi user system it's going nowhere anymore.

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

We were talking about the desktop and not the underlying system.

Of course the underlying system in Amiga OS 1.x is rather dated today. It's 20 years old.

Reply Score: 1

File Manager
by ankitmalik on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:08 UTC
ankitmalik
Member since:
2005-07-06

I do agree his opinion about the file dialog though

"Same with the file dialog. Apparently it's too "confusing" to let users
just type the filename. So gnome forces you to do the icon selection
thing, never mind that it's a million times slower.

"

Reply Score: 4

RE: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:09 UTC in reply to "File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
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Did Linus really type that about the file selector?

You know, if you want to type the file name there, just type it, starting with a /. A text box will pop up and allow you to enter it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:11 UTC in reply to "RE: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
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You know, if you want to type the file name there, just type it, starting with a /. A text box will pop up and allow you to enter it.

And of course everyone knows about this hidden feature, after all it's so intuitive.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
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"You know, if you want to type the file name there, just type it, starting with a /. A text box will pop up and allow you to enter it.

And of course everyone knows about this hidden feature, after all it's so intuitive."

Linus really said that the UI was too dumbed down for newbies to allow him to type the filename, right?

Well, there he has the functionality right under his fingers, and it doesn't even clash with that dreaded intuitivity that Gnome strives for. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: File Manager
by archiesteel on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:18 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: File Manager"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Well, there he has the functionality right under his fingers, and it doesn't even clash with that dreaded intuitivity that Gnome strives for. ;)

Actually it's completely counter-intuitive. I never knew it was there, and never thought of trying it.

The KDE file dialog is IMHO far more intuitive than the Gnome one.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
---

And of course everyone knows about this hidden feature, after all it's so intuitive

Hey it's in the mighty HIG it must be perfect.
Also I'm sure Apple did a study on it sometime and we all know that They are just and wise.

I've never forgiven Gnome the button-order fsck-up. For an at best marginally (if at all) improvement in usability of Gnome applications they broke compatibility with about every other X-app.
I don't believe anyone can seriously claim that the reverse button order improves usability more than the resulting inconsistencies destroy it.
The only solution would be for everyone else to switch to Gnome's way of doing things. Great.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: File Manager
by chris_dk on Wed 14th Dec 2005 17:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
chris_dk Member since:
2005-07-12

I agree.

The file selector in Gnome is really bad. It is too big and not useful.

The KDE file dialog is MUCH better.

/Chris

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: File Manager
by getaceres on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:13 UTC in reply to "RE: File Manager"
getaceres Member since:
2005-07-06

And if the directory containing the file you want to access has thousands of files (say /usr/bin) wait some minutes before it opens the whole directory when I know perfectly that I want to choose /usr/bin/oowriter, no matter what /usr/bin has.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Is this working for you...? It doesn't work for me...Getting an useless text edit...It's broken..

I'm a Ubuntu user....

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: File Manager
by jaboua on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:11 UTC in reply to "RE: File Manager"
jaboua Member since:
2005-09-08

I still prefer the old text-field for adress since I can change the current adress without rewriting the location of a file or simply paste the adress into the input field... I think the old text field was far superior than the current buttons.

About nautilus modes someone complained over me some place, I don't get why they changed it either... The browser mode is easier and more usable IMHO.

Another example is the "Open Terminal", I heard I can install some plugin or something for it, however it was better having it there as default, another "degrade" with the "upgrades"

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:10 UTC in reply to "RE: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
---

And of course GNOME goes out of its way to *tell* you about this feature. I'm a command line junky and I grumbled and moaned about the new file selector for months before I accidentally activated this feature. And I was following the debate about how to design it!

Reply Score: 0

v RE: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:03 UTC in reply to "File Manager"
RE[2]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:14 UTC in reply to "RE: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
---

" KDE is in-your-face "advanced", many advanced stuff is in Gnome you just have to know where it is... "

You hit the point : we don't have all the time in our life to go through some WindowsXP Registry Editor, alias gconf, bullshit to tweak a little our desktop. KDE users got better things to do.

It's in your face, yes, but you don't have to make a search night-long just to customize the desktop to your needs. We *use* our apps, we don't spend our time to search things hidden in gnome. :]

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: File Manager
by chemical_scum on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

You hit the point : we don't have all the time in our life to go through some WindowsXP Registry Editor, alias gconf, bullshit to tweak a little our desktop.

Unlike the notorius Windows Registry, gconf is very easy to use. It is better than the KDE control panel where you spend hours trying to find the right place to change anything.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
---

If you have to spend hours to find anything in the kde control center, you must be very, very dumb person. I'm giving you a benefit of the doubt and just assuming you are grossly exaggerating.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: File Manager
by kiddo on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
kiddo Member since:
2005-07-23

That's very subjective ;)
I did the test and used both GNOME and KDE. The thing is that KDE, I just needed one hour to go through the *drum rolls* kcontrol and tweak everything that annoyed me on the desktop to sane defaults. With GNOME, I usually spend that time stripping the menus down a little bit (who needs that "recording level monitor" anyway? It just does not work ;)

So yeah, I could say the same as you, backwards~

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: File Manager
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: File Manager"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Windows Registry and gconf cannot be compared. They are not the least bit identical at all.

Gconf pretty much contains next to nothing, while the Windows Registry is the real heart of windows - the black spirit if you please :p

Reply Score: 1

RE: File Manager
by rayiner on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:34 UTC in reply to "File Manager"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

Dude. The GNOME file dialog is keyboard-sensitive. If you just start typing, it will use the path name you give it (you can even maneuver around directories by typing the first few letters).

So much for "users are smart, they can read the manual and figure out what features the software has and how to access them!"

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
---

... was that really Linus? I can't imagine him writing something in that vein - about one of the most successful pieces of software that has ever been developed for Linux, and on which some of the most recently popular distributions are based on, whether he likes and use it or not.

Reply Score: 0

Carewolf Member since:
2005-09-08

Ofcourse it is Linus. This is just like him. It is amazing he has stayed out of a good flamewar for so many years ;)

Reply Score: 3

Linus' preferences
by Eugenia on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:10 UTC
Eugenia
Member since:
2005-06-28

Linus' preference to KDE is well known. He only used KDE since 1999 onwards AFAIK.

He is somewhat right on a few things (e.g. some Gnome developers hiding behind their own finger and not implementing stuff citing fake UI problems) but for the most part, Linus is in the wrong. Gnome is far more usable than KDE is. It is not as full-featured as it should have been (and still keep its good usability), but I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Linus' preferences
by alcibiades on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:29 UTC in reply to "Linus' preferences"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

"I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does."

This is certainly my experience. You should install both of course, and at some point your user may get interested enough to try other WMs, but to start with, for early users, Gnome is definitely less confusing. Its also the best choice if you are migrating ex Mac users. And Nautilus CD writing is, again for the less experienced user, so much simpler than anything else.

To me though its a false choice. You install both because you're certainly going to want to give them KDE applications - like Tellico, or Kmymoney. They look a bit different, but they work just fine.

We need to accept that there are large numbers of people who are not interested in the computer. They just want to do a smallish number of things regularly: email, web, photos, writing. Gnome is just fine for them.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Linus' preferences
by Moulinneuf on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:41 UTC in reply to "Linus' preferences"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

"but I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does."

Why ? Both are lacking essential first time video tutorial (Thats actually something Linspire got right IMO).

OOTBE ( out of the box experience ) is also often better with the KDE distribution base who use it ( PclinuxOS , Mepis , Xandros , Linspire ).

Too bad you dont write article explaining your point anymore , I miss those a lot.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Linus' preferences
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:03 UTC in reply to "Linus' preferences"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> "first-time-computer-user"

This is something more and more hard to find (not speaking of 3rd world of course.)

I really don't understand how someone can, as of today,
focus on users which never used a computer before, especially linux users are generally at least "power users" coming from windows or mac.

Gnome misses the main target in that case.
KDE is more appealing and more oriented to power users.

For real "first-time computer users", probably gnome is
more suitable.

But be sure that everybody coming from windows (90+%) will complain about "wrong button order"... and feel
thrown back to windows 3.1 times due to "spatial navigation"...

Reply Score: 0

v RE: Linus' preferences (2)
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE: Linus' preferences"
RE[2]: Linus' preferences
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:29 UTC in reply to "RE: Linus' preferences"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Spatial navigation can be turned of. And is btw. default in windows, too. We just turn it off, you know.

Windows 95 had spatial navigation as default. So did NT4.

The wrong button order isn't that big of a deal, when you've discovered it (took some time for me, because I tend to use keyboard).

Ordinary Windows users won't have a problem because they will have to read the window before doing anything. GUI-Power users from windows however suffer heavily from the wrong button order, but that's because they haven't heard of learning an interface, nor have heard of keyboard.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Linus' preferences
by historyb on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:18 UTC in reply to "Linus' preferences"
historyb Member since:
2005-07-06

That's interesting because I almost wrote Linux off because Red Hat used Gnome which imho is the worst desktop for somene coming frome Windows.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Linus' preferences
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:16 UTC in reply to "Linus' preferences"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"I think Gnome makes more sense as a first-time-computer-user desktop than KDE does."

I'm sure that anyone accustomed to Gnome would think the same, but how many first-time-computer-users are out there? AND, how many of those first-time-computer-users are having their first computer experience with Linux?

My first computer experience had nothing to do with Gnome or Linux. My first computer experience was with Apple. Later, I also used Windows. Later still, I used CDE on Solaris. I'd say that even though Linux wasn't my first computer experience, I wasn't terribly biased toward one way of doing things, and I was used to seeing things done a lot of different ways. Gnome was the first DE I tried with Linux, but I found it's usability sorely lacking. KDE was a joy to use after having tried Gnome.

What was the difference? Gnome wasn't confusing because it had too many options. Gnome was confusing because I couldn't even find options that I had come to expect to find in a modern desktop environment. (I couldn't even figure out how to do some things that were easy to do in Win95). I agree with Linus. It doesn't matter whether Gnome is capable of a task if there isn't a sane way to accomplish that task. Usability depends upon functionality.

Gnome sucks where functionality is concerned. So, for a new user, Gnome seems like a terrible choice just because there are so many holes in what Gnome allows the user to do. It seems like any/every new user would be able to find something that Gnome won't allow them to do that can be accomplished by plenty of other DE's. IMO that can be far more confusing that having a few more options that most people ignore anyway.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Linus' preferences
by edomaur on Wed 14th Dec 2005 11:04 UTC in reply to "Linus' preferences"
edomaur Member since:
2005-08-07

What I would like in Gnome is a way to do my work in the same fashion I do it under Windows, KDE or OSX. I would like a way to find how to do things without second guessing the developers each time. Usability should not only being about graphical design of the UI, but also about hints and tools to easily find what you have to do to accomplish the One Task.

So, has I have already said in a past flamewar or two, I am a KDE user (and developer wannabee), and I seriously miss the old time of Gnome, when I was finding Gnome 1.X more appealling than the corresponding KDE. What happenned ?

Reply Score: 1

This one will be nothing but a flame fest
by jbauer on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:11 UTC
jbauer
Member since:
2005-07-06

I greatly agree with him, although I don't think the way of saying it is entirely correct.

Anyway, I run for pop-corn, this one's gonna be a big one.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Huh?
by Shade on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:11 UTC
Shade
Member since:
2005-07-07

"Swearing, references to the nazis, "Please, just tell people to use <a free software project before another free software project>" and misspellings?"

You've never read the LKML have you... Or the kernel source code... (Swears in kernel source: http://www.vidarholen.net/contents/wordcount/ )

Linus is a known KDE user... You can search for him in the KDE bug database. There was a story a few years back that commented in passing on how he submitted high quality bug reports. It's not like he's the only one who has some of those 'beefs' with GNOME.

Now let's just see 1,000,000 GNOMEers all try to figure out how to moderate a parent article down ;)

Reply Score: 5

not a desktop developer
by aseigo on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:16 UTC
aseigo
Member since:
2005-07-06

while i obviously think it's cool linus likes our (KDE's) work, before this spins out of control:

linus is one data point in the grand scheme of things. a fairly important one, but it's not a reason for everyone to get their panties in a bunch. so please don't, m'kay? he likes what he likes, surprise! =)

but importantly this hasn't put a dent in the cooperative tone that we built in Portland last week (which is the mailing list this actually started on). the desktop developers are moving on with our cooperative efforts.

one could think this might kick up all sorts of dust between, say, KDE and GNOME but they'd be wrong in this case. dust between Linus and GNOME, oh yeah. but let's not confuse this as a KDE vs GNOME issue as some people may be wont to.

Reply Score: 5

Ouch...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:16 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I'd better get my flame retardant suit...

No-one is above the occasional OT troll (as this obviously was). This is but the latest symptom of a rift - a small rift, but a rift nonetheless - in the GNOME community, such that lead to the now-defunct goneme effort.

Switching to KDE avoids said rift, but not everyone likes KDE. Depending on who you ask, there has been a lot of compromise in GNOME to try and make 'everyone' happy, or none at all. I do hope it works out, because while I am a KDE user, life with KDE as the only 'mainstream' OSS desktop environment would be the same as life with Windows as the only 'mainstream' computing OS: boring. At least there we have Apple (and I use one of those too =).

Reply Score: 1

WOW!
by Budd on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:16 UTC
Budd
Member since:
2005-07-08

This will be big, 1500 post will be here in a matter of hours. OSNews, prepare for the biggest hit in history.
To the news itself, I use gnome over kde and I do not intend to change this. Sorry, Linus

Reply Score: 3

In this corner......
by Walter on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:19 UTC
Walter
Member since:
2005-07-12

The well known starten of Linux, wearing the shorts with the big K on it........

In the other corner: about 1,000,000 users with the shorts with the ugly foot on it ;) .


And yes, my preference is also KDE, but I do use XFCE on slower machines. I have to agree that the Gnome developers have overstepped their 'clean-desktop-policy/simplicity'.

Reply Score: 4

Somebody lost control of his ego
by charlieg on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:19 UTC
charlieg
Member since:
2005-07-25

Linus may be a respected kernel hacker but does that give him the right to just talk utter crap? I'm surprised the Gnome developers responded so calmly (probably the 'respect' thing). That was a pure troll with little or no fact backing it up.

Linus clearly has not used Gnome for a good year or two.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
---

This time the GNOME is the curse of Linux. It gets pople confused with UNIXes, making them think that UNIXes are just Windows clones for those, who doesn't afford Microsoft's royalties.

Reply Score: 1

Read what Linus is responding to...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

It's about the printing interface. GNOME is know to keep everything simple, so everything Till Kamppeter is talking about is going to bloat the printing dialog no matter what. Considering this Linus suggesting just to use KDE in this particular case is imo adequate since the odds of additions of non-basic priting options to GNOME are very small. GNOME just isn't supposed to fit your needs if you know exactly what you do and need all expert settings.

Reply Score: 5

He's mostly right
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:25 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

He might not be right in the way he said it, but he's mostly right. Been using Linux at my desktop since XFree was usable and FVWM ruled the world, and while at the begining Gnome seemed to've the upper hand on features I've the impression that since 1.2-1.4 it's development is crawling backwards instead of going forward: too many efforts on reenginiering, too many "this is way too complicated for our users" have broken the efectivity of an otherwise good looking desktop (btw, that "spacialty" parading for nautilus is plainly shit, it's like using old windows 95! and it confuses the hell out of most newbie users) and turn more and more users to KDE. The issue with KDE is that they're mostly silent, don't make a PR show anytime they make a new dialog like gnome -ok, that's not true either but you catch the idea-. As much as I would like to have four or more full desktops to choose from (kde, gnome, xfce, enlightment 17,etc..) I fear gnome is making their own grave.

Reply Score: 5

RE: He's mostly right
by chemical_scum on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:15 UTC in reply to "He's mostly right"
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

btw, that "spacialty" parading for nautilus is plainly shit, it's like using old windows 95! and it confuses the hell out of most newbie users

I expected that I would had the "spatial" Nautilus when it came out. Instead I loved it and now Nautilus is my favorite file manager. Back in the days of Gnome 2.2 I hated Nautilus so much that I used a combination of XFWM4 as windowmanager (as Metacity is a pretty poor WM compared to it - Havoc if you are reading this) with XFsession, Rox to replace Nautilus and the Gnome panel which I do love.

However even now if I want to do any serious file handling I use Emelfm2.

Reply Score: 1

v WinXP
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:26 UTC
RE: WinXP
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:20 UTC in reply to "WinXP"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Unfortunately, the only version of windows that is good enough (stable, feature-rich) as a workstation, is Windows Server 2003...

Reply Score: 0

Oh boy.
by JonO on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:28 UTC
JonO
Member since:
2005-09-23

A 12 page flamewar.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Oh boy.
by mini-me on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:47 UTC in reply to "Oh boy."
mini-me Member since:
2005-07-06

it's more than 12 pages now ;-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Oh boy.
by JonO on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Oh boy."
JonO Member since:
2005-09-23

And I wonder if a single person has changed their opinion yet?

My guess is no.

Reply Score: 1

Forget both....
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Just use Enlightenment and stop whining.

Reply Score: 5

So what? No big deal!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:31 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Linus is a major geek and he likes to fiddle around with his desktop.
So he likes KDE more than GNOME. So what?

"Jedem Tierchen sein Pläsierchen!"(german puts it best. Kind of like "Different strokes for different folks")

Reply Score: 0

Response
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

So let's bring this back to your original assertion about GNOME and KDE
and probably the point of this email: we don't think that people are
idiots, we just think that in 90% of the cases people have better things
to do than learn the low level details of the desktop and how to
configure confusing key combinations. Software should "just work" for
our users, express clearly what's going on on the system, and it should
be accessible to a wide audience. This doesn't mean that GNOME sucks
and KDE rules - it just means that it's not right for _you_. And for
the record I feel the same way about KDE. I think that it's fine, but
just not for me. And lucky for you, there are still a lot of desktop
options out there that fit your bill.

So I hope that this email gives you a little better perspective on where
we're coming from. We're not treating people like idiots, we're just
trying to make an operating system that tries to make computers not get
in the way but instead enable a large number of people to get useful
work done.


http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00026.htm...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Response
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:08 UTC in reply to "Response"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"We're not treating people like idiots, we're just
trying to make an operating system that tries to make computers not get
in the way but instead enable a large number of people to get useful
work done."
Well, I think KDE is right in the approach "let the user to do more things".
And I think Gnome is right in the approach "keep it clear and simple".
However, I think KDE beats Gnome in making the UI more progressive in trading simplicity for control in the sense that KDE is not really cluettered by confusing menus if the first time user doesn't try to do something advanced and if the user try to do something more in depth, may browse many menus of increasing difficulty instead of being annoyed by huge option lists. I think this progressive difficulty approach is essential in keeping focus in what the user is doing and i think it's bettere implemented in KDE, although also KDE has a lot of improvement to do to become more clean without loosing his fine tuning potential.
My two cents...
Giorgio

Reply Score: 1

linus = lol
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:35 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Heh... KDE has their simplification project too. What Linus's post boils down to is some options people would like, that Gnome people aren't against (in the two specific examples), and a nebulous point about UI design.

lol linus. lol.

Reply Score: 0

People ... cool down ...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:36 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Linus is just a man not a f***ing icon.
If I can say this so can he.

And it is true Gnome is not a good as KDE and it will never be.

:) This is just my opinion....

Only real geeks can use as much time as You on topic ..

:)
Have a nice day ..

Reply Score: 3

I do not get it...
by s_groening on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:36 UTC
s_groening
Member since:
2005-12-13

I wonder why many people prefer Mac OS X over Windows XP when talking about user friendliness, if what Linus here seems to state actually is THE TRUTH on this matter...

The fact that people so not mind being confused by options as long as the is less features.

This just seems like true stupidity to me. I have no idea what sort of competence Linus thinks he has in this field of usability and user interface design and what might be related, but he definately and undoubtedly has some knowledge on coding. Stick with that and stop playing guru or decicive factor or whatever you might wanna call it.

GNOME users like GNOME for different things than KDE users love KDE (or so is my impression). Get people doing great apps and frontends and the likes for both environments and let people choose.
I have tried KDE at different times but have always backed down since I never liked the look and feel of it, I never liked any theme enough to hide away all the other things that make me uncomfortable with KDE.

KDE seems to me to be a cheap and uninspired Windows-esque GUI with a lot of different littele annoyances to follow for a person like myself. It does not at any point in time bring a smile on my face to see a KDE screenshot, whereas I have had this experience with GNOME, since it simply seems to try to do some of the things right that distinguish Mac OS X from XP... -A nice and friendly uncluttered face!

Reply Score: 5

x
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

> we don't think that people are idiots, we just think that in 90% of the cases people have better
> things to do than learn the low level details of the desktop and how to configure confusing key
> combinations.

But that's what they actually did. As a former participant to GNOME I can confirm that they said things like this. But I agree that the people should have better things to do than low level details of the desktop. Unfortunately - not with GNOME. There are simply to many things inside and around GNOME that simply doesn't work or work well enough to keep people away from the low level details. I find myself more fiddling with big and small annyoances of GNOME than I find fiddling with KDE.

Reply Score: 2

I Have to Agree
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I really have to agree with Torvalds, and I have no programming skills and a very basic knowledge of Linux. I've used both KDE and Gnome many times, and keep going back to KDE. I always feel guilty, because I want to like Gnome more than KDE, but I just can't.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I Have to Agree
by defile on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:00 UTC in reply to "I Have to Agree"
defile Member since:
2005-07-09

Use whatever suits you. There is no reason to feel obligated to use something that doesn't.

Reply Score: 1

Terenzio
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I think that Linus should never use his "power" saying things like this.
He could use his voice making people think if what they're doing is the best for the project, not for starting a flame-war with a "Please, just tell people to use KDE.".
In my experience I found the simplicity (or lack of information if you prefer) of Gnome fantastic when you need an easy to use graphic interface.

Reply Score: 0

this is great!
by butters on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:41 UTC
butters
Member since:
2005-07-08

I don't think this is improper conduct on the part of Linus. The fact that Linus doesn't feel compelled to hold his fire because of his name and position is exactly what the free software community is all about. With Linus joining the fray, other big-names such as Jeff Waugh, Nat Friedman, and Havoc Pennington can join in the fun.

There's no loser here, only some high-profile discussion between influencial members of the community. It shows that these guys are regular people, much like the people who read and post at OSNews. They use the same software we use, and read much of the same news media as we do. They're entitled to comment like everyone else.

Linus doesn't really have any more influence on GNOME development than anyone else can. If Linus submitted code for the PPD configuration dialog to the GNOME project, I'm sure the maintainers would review it just the same as if an unknown developer wrote it. I'm sure none of the GNOME developers are going to stay up nights developing said feature because of Linus' comments. If they do, it will be because they agree with him, not because of his name.

As for the general "why do we have two DEs, we would be so much better off choosing one and pooling our resources" comment: GNOME vs. KDE represents a competitive situation that drives rapid improvement. If there were one official free software DE, there would be less incentive to develop it.

So, in short, I like GNOME/KDE flamewars, I think that in the long run they produce constructive thought, that discussion amongst the highest echelons of the community is preferrable, and that having two competing DEs is a good thing for the free software desktop for the time being.

Reply Score: 5

RE: this is great!
by defile on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:06 UTC in reply to "this is great!"
defile Member since:
2005-07-09

"I don't think this is improper conduct on the part of Linus. The fact that Linus doesn't feel compelled to hold his fire because of his name and position is exactly what the free software community is all about. With Linus joining the fray, other big-names such as Jeff Waugh, Nat Friedman, and Havoc Pennington can join in the fun."

True that. I thought their replies were rather civil. Not once did one of them say "Hey Linus, when am I going to be able to use my .config from the last version of 2.6.x to compile the latest 2.6.x?".

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: this is great!
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE: this is great!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

you already can, I do it every time a new version is out.

Reply Score: 0

A box of beer for Linus.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

The day I met Linus, I will be spending him the best box of GERMAN beer that I find in regular stores. Because I so f--king damn agree with him.

Reply Score: 2

RE: A box of beer for Linus.
by Trollstoi on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:48 UTC in reply to "A box of beer for Linus."
Trollstoi Member since:
2005-11-11

I can pretend to agree with you too for the free box of beer.

Reply Score: 3

RE: A box of beer for Linus.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:01 UTC in reply to "A box of beer for Linus."
Anonymous Member since:
---

LOL, the_best_GERMAN_beer? Poor Linus :-D

Reply Score: 0

RE: A box of beer for Linus.
by RationalNumber on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:09 UTC in reply to "A box of beer for Linus."
RationalNumber Member since:
2005-10-11

"The day I met Linus, I will be spending him the best box of GERMAN beer that I find in regular stores. Because I so f--king damn agree with him."

judging by linus' comments, i think linus has had far too much beer already.

Reply Score: 1

WTF??!??
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Linus using a desktop environment?1?! I cant believe this is Linus, real hackers only use command line interface, so stop the flamewar, this is a fake

Reply Score: 2

RE: WTF??!??
by dark child on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:01 UTC in reply to "WTF??!??"
dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

Its not fake at all. For a long time Linus was a Suse user and the default DE in Suse was KDE.

Personally I think he is right. GNOME is not friendly at all to advanced users and a lot of things are dumbed down. For me the file selector is really awful and its a sad thing that Firefox now uses it by default.

Linus could have obviously put his opinions across in a different manner, but the way he did it, is common on most developer mailing lists, so I don't see why people should complain just because its Linus. Obviously a lot of GNOME fans (this site has loads) may be offended but they really need to accept the fact that their DE of choie is not perfect just like the rest that are out there.

Reply Score: 1

I disagree...
by Trollstoi on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:46 UTC
Trollstoi
Member since:
2005-11-11

... with both sides. I think both GNOME and KDE are easy enough for a first time user. Slightly different, but easy. People who find GNOME or KDE confusing, is probably the same people who claims they're "out of internet" when the IE icon is missing on the Windows desktop. I mean, is the same people who also thinks Windows is confusing. I myself prefer KDE over the 2, but I don't think GNOME is that bad.

Reply Score: 2

RE: I disagree...
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:37 UTC in reply to "I disagree..."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Windows is confusing. All DE's are confusing to some extent. Mac OS X is no better.

So far they all tend to concentrate on certain parts of usability overdoing it in that area, instead of just following good practices.

In general Gnome has been so simplified that it leaves power users behind, exactly what Jeff Waugh wrote in his reply to Linus Torvalds.

Reply Score: 2

KDE vs Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:47 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I believe the tagline "whoever wins, we lose" applies here. Both environments are terrible. Both projects' developers need to have a serious look at Apple's Human Interface Guidelines.

Reply Score: 1

Linus: -1
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:49 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Linus is definitely in the wrong here, as far as I'm concerned. His points may have some validity, no denying that, but the way he said it was simply, in every sense of the word, unacceptable. Whether Linus likes it or not-- he is a man with a certain authority, in the same league basically as people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Whenever people like them say something, it's news.

I actually find it kind of naive of Linus to say what he said. I thought Linus was someone who stood above the childish bickering between KDE and GNOME users (the KDE and GNOME devs seem to be getting closer together every day). Apparantly, he is not.

And that's just sad. Linus: -1.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:56 UTC in reply to "Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> And that's just sad. Linus: -1.

I'd give him +5

Reply Score: 2

RE: Linus: -1
by Moulinneuf on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:20 UTC in reply to "Linus: -1"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Is aim might be to shake a situation he as know to be non moving and stale for a long time , if its not a fake , sometime you need to lend your voice to some expert because the people in a group are not really listening to what he is saying or dont really think the subject is really of high value or of importance right now.

Some of the best GNU/Linux code in both KDE and GNOME have came directly from jab at each other , drunk promise people recalled the next day , dare and even bragging rights.

Linus Thorvalds is also someone who often will not think too far on politics or the effect of is comments.

If its not a fake it might turn out that Linus tried to use printing on GNOME in the past and found it to be so
lacking that he got mad at the situation still not beeing fixed today.

Personnaly I think this news is more sensionnalistic then informative. The title of the news is also written by my favorite sensionnalistic title maker in all the OSNews editor ;-).

Torvalds : KDE printing system Better then GNOME for power user.

He is also using SuSe on an Apple system if he did not change recently ;-) , he whas also the best friend of the guy who made the Kernel veryfying system which whas non free "bytekeeper" who got kick out by him after he got invited to testify in court a couple of time.

Torvalds : the news I am an Alien where false , I whas only abducted by them ;-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Linus: -1
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Linus: -1"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Torvalds : KDE printing system Better then GNOME for power user.

NO. His words are about GNOME as a whole and are NOT referring to JUST the printing dialog.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Linus: -1
by Moulinneuf on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:04 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Linus: -1"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Your right ;-)

I just have a nitpicking problem with "Use KDE" ;-) ( I never do that get stuck on meaningless details ;-) ).

Reply Score: 1

RE: Linus: -1
by molnarcs on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:06 UTC in reply to "Linus: -1"
molnarcs Member since:
2005-09-10

Linus is definitely in the wrong here, as far as I'm concerned. His points may have some validity, no denying that, but the way he said it was simply, in every sense of the word, unacceptable.

This is so wrong, that I don't know where to begin...

1. Imagina a scenario where Linus posts to a mailing list an opinion that describes his disappointment with KDE. He thinks that it is "bloated" and "it just gets in the way" and all the usual gnome blahblah that is regurarly modded up +5 here on OSNEWS. Can you say, in all honesty, that you would label him a troll in this case? It is exactly the same thing - it is just that his actual opinion does not coincide with yours, and hence, you as an editor (which makes it worse) label him a troll?

I thought Linus was someone who stood above the childish bickering between KDE and GNOME users

Are you sure YOU are above that bickering? Is Eugenia? Just read her opinion (which is very well known) that - to sum up - currently GNOME is better, more usable... The difference between her and Linus is that she is an editor of a site that should at least keep up pretenses of neutrality when it comes to these questions... at least theoretically. It doesn't really bother me that she prefers GNOME - what bothers me is double standards. You accuse Linus of being a troll, of not being above the "childish bickering", even though he gives his opinion as a user, while Eugenia (I don't know about you personally) usually gives her pro-GNOME opinion as a "usability expert" to lend some credit to her claims.

You better start looking at your on agenda before accusing Linus of being part of a childish bickering b/w GNOME/KDE users - are you not part of that as well?

2. I migrate people to Free Software - and soon this will become my way of earning money (for now these are experiments, we do market research - desktop viability, backend viability of free software...). We limit our offerings to very few choices: backend - FreeBSD, desktop - Kubuntu. Why Kubuntu? Because of KDE! Incidentally, I have exactly the same experience as Linus had:

And when I tell people that, they tend to nod, and have some story of
their own why they had a feature they used to use, but it was removed
because it might have been confusing.


For new Linux "converts" the opinion is obviously not the same, but I used to deal with people who used that godawful MS Office floating toolbar to launch every application on their desktop, and I can tell you, that most usability choises I heard explained in the past two years by gnome devs were bogus in my experience. THIS IS ALL IMHO of course - just as it was in Linus' (well, not so humble) opinion - but we both have a serious gripe: people throw around words like "usability" too easily, leading to circular or unsubstantial arguments, while real usability studies are not conducted at all. I haven't read a serious usability study for a long time. (maybe this will change with openusability and all). And no, I don't consider a study conducted with people who are absolute computer illiterate (not knowing that the right mouse button is good for something) representative. They are a very specific subset of users, they are NOT the majority, and making design decisions based on experiments conducted on this very small subset of the userbase is WRONG. That is Linus' point. Is he politically correct? Of course not (" This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it.") Is he a troll? Well, if Thom_Holwerda thinks he is, because he doesn't share his opinion, than I question his credibility (the credibility of osnews) as an unbiased newsite. (Just think again of my first point - what if the situation would have been reversed? Long time osnews readers know very well, that he would not be labeled as a troll, oh no, in fact, we would have a flurry of supporting comments from osnews editors).

And that's just sad. Linus: -1.

I could say the same of your own post.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
---

1. Imagina a scenario where Linus posts to a mailing list an opinion that describes his disappointment with KDE. He thinks that it is "bloated" and "it just gets in the way" and all the usual gnome blahblah that is regurarly modded up +5 here on OSNEWS. Can you say, in all honesty, that you would label him a troll in this case? It is exactly the same thing - it is just that his actual opinion does not coincide with yours, and hence, you as an editor (which makes it worse) label him a troll?

Did you actually read any of my comments? OF course if he said all this about KDE it would get posted! What do you think! I even said in my parent reply that I think there is validity in his posts, yet you AGAIN start kicking that dead horse that is called OSNEws'so-called bias towards GNOME. I'm getting really fed up with that dead horse.

In case you want to know, I recently switched from GNOME to KDE due to a number of things GNOME could not provide me with (one of th emost important being the lack of a "double-click-titlebar = minimize" option-- yes, a feature request was filed but denied).

Are you sure YOU are above that bickering?

No, I'm not. But I'm not one of the main figures in the open source movement. It is my *job* to express my opinion, being a "journalist" (sort of, that is) and all.

However, Linus is a public figure, and whether he likes it or not, he is the face of what we call "Linux", and with that comes responsibility.

while Eugenia (I don't know about you personally) usually gives her pro-GNOME opinion as a "usability expert" to lend some credit to her claims.

Again, have you even read this thread? Eugenia said the same as I did: there is validity in Linus' points, but the tone is unnacceptable.

--
Thom Holwerda

Reply Score: 0

RE: Linus: -1
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:49 UTC in reply to "Linus: -1"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

As a Mac user you have to feel that way.

The dumber and more illogical it gets the better you like it ;)

Naahh.. Linus is doing this to make it obvious what's going on, and I can follow him to some extent, being a Gnome user and power user at the same time.

And Jeff Waugh did admit that Gnome occasionally left the power users behind.

And according to Havoc Penningtons statements it's clear why Gnome is going bad, when aiming for a design that some just loves and others just hate, instead of going for the design that everybody can live with. The latter is always the right choice, no matter what. That's the problem with Gnome. Leaving experienced users behind, heading for the dumbest possible approach (even though Gnome has certain neat elements, incl. installation by drag'n'drop here there and everywhere).

Reply Score: 2

Worrying
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I find it really worrying that the leader of the project that has the best chance of pushing free software onto the mainstream desktop is decrying usability and is clearly not interested in catering to non-techie users.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Worrying
by Emerson on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:22 UTC in reply to "Worrying"
Emerson Member since:
2005-09-19

Gnome, best chance of pushing fee software onto the mainstream desktop? I love Linux, it's been my main desktop since BeOS died. But come on now, it's time to give up the dream of it ever going mainstream. It could be the greatest desktop in the world and most people still wouldn't use it. People worrying about what they can do to get Joe Average onto Linux are as sad as the guy who sneeks into a womans apartment to do her dishes because "perhaps THEN she'll love him!" Linux is great, it's been rejected by the average computer user.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Worrying
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Worrying"
Anonymous Member since:
---

My opion on that matter deviates a lot from yours. I believe Linux has grown in popularity and has started to recieve nominal use by a small group of non-tech savvy people. For instance, my mom and both of my sisters use linux and they are definitely not tech savvy people... and seeing as how I live half way across the country, they don't get any admin help from me.

My point is this... the linux community should not give up on striving to make linux better for the desktop, because as linux evolves into a more usable platform with a well-rounded and useful set of applications, your 'Joe Average' user is evolving into a more tech-savvy person as technology further integrates into his life. Not to mention that the younger generation is growing up on computers. Apparently linux isn't attractive to most 'Joe Average's' today, but tomorrow is another story.

As an example of what I mean. I have used computers since I was a little kid (Apple II being my first)and I think as a result I've been pretty open to try new things (such as linux) because I don't feel inhimibited -- I'm not afraid of my computer or installing an operating system. I have a lot of friends that are like me in that respect and I have other friends that never used a computer until later in life and are the complete opposite -- afraid to even install software on their own. People in developed nations are beginning to more commonly fall into the first category and as a result I wouldn't be surprise if linux took a much more sizable chunk of the consumer and corporate desktop markets in the future...

we just need to be patient :-)

Reply Score: 0

v Why?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:51 UTC
Linus is an idiot
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

He who creates software and DOES NOT think purely and solely from the viewpoint of the end-user deserves to be hung, drawn and quartered.

This is exactly where most OSS projects go wrong and fail to get non-tech-nerds to use them.

Apple and Gnome seem to be the only one who seem to understand this. Being an extremely geekie kernel-hacker, Torvalds simply can only judge what he himself would like to see, not what's good for an average non-kernel-hacker-geek-user.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Linus is an idiot
by jbauer on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:08 UTC in reply to "Linus is an idiot"
jbauer Member since:
2005-07-06

Where has Linus said usability is not important? He just does not agree with the way Gnome understands usability. I don't, either. Gnome thinks usability is:

- removing features, just for the sake of it. They take this to the extreme, so when I need something the software does not provide me, can I say is usable for me? Of course not.

- hiding configuration options so badly under the hood no one understands how to change them. Kcontrol may be a mess, but at least given time and patience anyone can get their way through it just with clicks of the mouse.

Of course, providing funcionality while maintaining the software reasonably clean and appropiate for both novice and advanced users is no easy task. That's why KDE it's not perfect and has so much work ahead of them, because they IMO have not reached that point. But the way Gnome has tackled the problem is very disappointing to me... they just have chosen the easy path.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Linus is an idiot
by Jezza on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:10 UTC in reply to "Linus is an idiot"
Jezza Member since:
2005-10-13

No, I disagree... Linux was developed for people who want an os like linux, not people who want linux solely if it's easy, it WAS created for techies, and there's no reason he should be forced to dumb it down, just because it's now cool to use linux.

Reply Score: 1

if linus prefer kde over gnome...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

meaning he dislikes os x too? since gnome resembles os x in terms of UI/usability...

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> meaning he dislikes os x too? since gnome resembles os x in terms of UI/usability...

Please stop comparing GNOME and OSX. GNOME in no way resembles OSX in any terms, neihter UI, neither USABILITY and neither JUST WORKS.

Reply Score: 5

He's totally right
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Well, this can sound like a bomb on gnome fanatics, but It's totally true. Maybe now, that "god" speaks some of you will pay more attention to kde instead of assuming that gnome is all you need.

Reply Score: 1

RE: He's totally right
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:57 UTC in reply to "He's totally right"
Anonymous Member since:
---

dude, people aren't assuming it's all they need. they KNOW what they need, and obviously, GNOME is it. if other people are better suited by KDE, fine ;D

but please, don't presume to tell people what they need.

Reply Score: 0

Retirement?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:58 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Hands up all those who think Torvalds should retire?

He's recently come out with quite a few comments that really dont befit a person in his position. THis is just another of his senile ramblings.

Reply Score: 0

I agree with him
by Charles A Landemaine on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:58 UTC
Charles A Landemaine
Member since:
2005-11-11

I like KDE better for the same reasons ;)

Reply Score: 3

Idiots
by LB06 on Tue 13th Dec 2005 10:59 UTC
LB06
Member since:
2005-07-06

Linus doesn't seem to recognize the fact that there are indeed complete idiots on this planet (very many, actually) who do not know how to hanldle functionality.

And they should be served, too, if you want *NIX to be successful on a large scale. And I do think that Gnome can and will play a crucial role here. Some users just need this dumbing down approach.

I would also like to stress the fact that the functionality vs simplicity discussion isn't as black and white as Linus appears it to be. Applications can provide both a clean, simple and attractive interface, yet full of functionality. Several apps come to mind: amaroK, Thunderbird/Firefox, gmail, iTunes(probably more Apple apps), winamp, k3b, Nero, PowerDVD, etc etc.

Reply Score: 1

He got it half right
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I honestly believe if Linux is every going to make it big in the desktop market.... Gnome and KDE both need to be replaced by something a far cry better.

I wouldn't admit to being on the development team for either of them at this point in time.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Idiots
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

"I would also like to stress the fact that the functionality vs simplicity discussion isn't as black and white as Linus appears it to be. Applications can provide both a clean, simple and attractive interface, yet full of functionality."

But that's exactly the point Linus is making.
Just not providing funcionality != useability, providing this functionality in a way that it is easy to use even for non-technical users is.

Reply Score: 0

XFCE...why not?
by Ringheims Auto on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:02 UTC
Ringheims Auto
Member since:
2005-07-23

To me I'd like to see more focus on XFCE. Not only for geeks or people with slow machines, I think it's just terrific with any configuration. You can have all the functionalities of Gnome/KDE (AFAIK, at least pretty much), and it's CLEAN, simple and intuitive. To me I feel it's kinda like the Firefox of *nix desktops. It's not made up of so many bits and pieces as Gnome/KDE, so the chances for bugs are also much lower and it's very consistent. You can argue that it hasn't got a desktop to put files, but if you take a look at many endusers' desktops and see what a mess it often is, it might be better to skip it altogether. You can have it anyhows by running nautilus at startup, but why mess it all up by doing that?

I say, Linus, swith to XFCE.

Reply Score: 2

RE: XFCE...why not?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:03 UTC in reply to "XFCE...why not?"
Anonymous Member since:
---

I just tried XFCE on my vector box, the latest
stable one..nice installer they have!

One problem I had with it that I never
had on KDE or blackbox was that when
I tried to start Opera, from command line
it complained about no acrobat reader and then
quit(opera was unlaunched) with something about a
fatal i/o error.. The warning was a show stopper in XFCE but not
in KDE or blackbox. Strange.

Reply Score: 0

Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Torvalds is becoming irrelevant as his child grows out of his control. It seems he has become resentful of this fact and now resorts to cheap remarks in a futile attempt to get some attention.

He needs to realise that Linux is no longer for the geeks, it is starting to become more mainstream and is leaving him and his mindset behind.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:05 UTC in reply to "Torvalds is irrelevant"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> Torvalds is becoming irrelevant as his child grows out of his control.

I don't see this trend. Care to back your statement up with some values ?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Torvalds is irrelevant"
Anonymous Member since:
---

- Linux is now more than just a kernel. (yes I know technically linux IS the kernel but in the eyes of the rest of the world, linux = kernel + DE + OSS)
- Torvalds is simply a maintainer/developer of the kernel.

I am not doubting the intelligence of the bloke, he just has to learn when to let go, his area of expertese is not DE's. He is a kernel geek (like most people on this forum) but that is all.

His comments on DE's are as irrelevant as the next persons given his position.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Torvalds is irrelevant"
Anonymous Member since:
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And it appear clears that your comments are therefore irrelevant. I just had to follow your way of thinking.

It's easy to make such declaration, as you can see.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[4]: Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Torvalds is irrelevant"
RE[5]: Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Torvalds is irrelevant"
Anonymous Member since:
---

He has to face up to facts, He is no longer the centre of the Linux world. His baby has outgrown him and he resents it.

Yes, his support of KDE clearly shows his hatred for GNU/Linux (the OS not the kernel)

I assume tomorrow he's gonna demonstrate his opposition to the current US government by flaming a vi mailing list?

Reply Score: 1

v RE[6]: Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Torvalds is irrelevant"
v Idiot
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:04 UTC
RE: Idiot
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:12 UTC in reply to "Idiot"
Anonymous Member since:
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> For this Comment, only Linus is an idiot.

See, everyone who disagrees with the GNOME crowd and movement is automatically an idiot or a troll... Pathetic community yours that is...

Reply Score: 2

Think before posting
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:04 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Let's recap all this.

Linus
Most of you probably do not read Linus posts. They're usualy precise and clever. You'd think he just code Linux and it went out this way that he's the lead guy. But it's far more. He's clever, that's plain, and that's not just about writing code. Read more of his emails to make your opinion.

Gnome
Things like typing / to find a file are handy, but light years away from the supposed easy to use stuff. I mean, first I just typed some stuff and I wondered where the box came from. It looked like it was a bug - and i'm not kidding - even placement is not obvious.
After a few tries I figured out.

OSX
Gnome tries to have some OSX lookalike but it's not OSX. It's human nature I guess, that when something looks a bit like something else, it should be assumed that it's just exactly the same thing. This is the reason why analogies, like, the usual "car" thing, rarely ever work. But if you're naive or don't know about it, it's gonna work. That's called manipulating minds ;)

KDE
KDE tends to ressemble WinXP on his own. It's not perfect. To tell the truth, I'm more efficient using WinXP than KDE. But now, is it complex to use ?
No. And Windows users feel at home. And its powerfull. And you go no hidden boxes looking like bugs.

Now, what's the reason for all Gnome people to defend it ?
Simple matter:
A/ it looks pretty, sleek and clean by default. And I'm really _only_ talking about look, not about functionality. People are superficial (and I don't blame them)
B/ Gnome people have been spreading FUD lately in many articles vs KDE. I did not especially favor KDE, but I hate this kind of things. FUD, sucks, plain.


Now, of course this OSNews article is a troll, but I hope my post helps you to make your own, clear, and real opinion, not just based on your loyality in a WM or other kinds of brain-shortcuts so that you don't have to think for _yourself_ for a minute.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Think before posting
by Soulbender on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:08 UTC in reply to "Think before posting"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"B/ Gnome people have been spreading FUD lately in many articles vs KDE."

Good thing there arent any KDE zealots spreading FUD about GNOME...
Oh wait, what was this article about again?
Come on, there are morons in both camps, neither is better than the other in this respect.

Reply Score: 3

GNOME messed up
by adinas on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:08 UTC
adinas
Member since:
2005-08-17

I was really disapointed when they removed the ability to type in the path in Nautilus and in the file chooser dialog. I copy and paste file locations all the time!

Reply Score: 2

RE: GNOME messed up
by seguso on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:01 UTC in reply to "GNOME messed up"
seguso Member since:
2005-06-29

I was really disapointed when they removed the ability to type in the path in Nautilus and in the file chooser dialog. I copy and paste file locations all the time!

There are bookmarks and the history for that purpose (i.e. moving quickly in the filesystem). So, technically, using copy &paste was "something you should not do".

Though I see how this can piss people off, consider that a desktop is a philosophy of how you do things. So for a desktop it is perfectly reasonable to force a precise way to do things on the user.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: GNOME messed up
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:26 UTC in reply to "RE: GNOME messed up"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"I was really disapointed when they removed the ability to type in the path in Nautilus"

they haven't removed it. if you go to 'Go' then 'location', you will find that its still there.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: GNOME messed up
by Ringheims Auto on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:37 UTC in reply to "RE: GNOME messed up"
Ringheims Auto Member since:
2005-07-23

There are bookmarks and the history for that purpose (i.e. moving quickly in the filesystem). So, technically, using copy &paste was "something you should not do".

What about copy & paste into the terminal, for example? I know, this is something only powerusers should do, but it's so frustrating when it's not there, and it shouldn't be necessary to remove it (noobs can handle it in windoze).

Reply Score: 1

RE: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:10 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

>Linus is definitely in the wrong here, as far as I'm >concerned.

You are free to express your opinion, just as Linus is.

>Whether Linus likes it or not-- he is a man with a >certain authority, in the same league basically as >people like Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. Whenever >people like them say something, it's news.

Yes, and with his whole authority he just expressed his preferences. And yes, it is news. What's exactly wrong with it?

> I thought Linus was someone who stood above the >childish bickering between KDE and GNOME users (the >KDE and GNOME devs seem to be getting closer >together every day)

And because he is mere user he should just shut up, and worship every decision of mighty developers, right? Well, this is typical mindset of people from GNOME project.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Linus: -1
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:18 UTC in reply to "RE: Linus: -1"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Yes, and with his whole authority he just expressed his preferences. And yes, it is news. What's exactly wrong with it?

He has a responsibility too. Meaning he has to weigh his words and thoughts just a little bit more than people like you and me, with little to no authority or responsibility.

And because he is mere user he should just shut up, and worship every decision of mighty developers, right? Well, this is typical mindset of people from GNOME project.

First of all, I'm not of the GNOME project; I actually prefer KDE over GNOME these days.

Of course it is his right to speak his mind. But you can speak your mind without references to nazis, profanities and flaming/trolling. As if the flamewar with Andy Tanenbaum wasn't enough.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:40 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
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For all those affronted by the "interface nazis" phrase: Am I the only one who was reminded of the Seinfeld "Soup Nazi" episode. Maybe the phrase just snuck in from the there. Not necessarily to be confused with Hitler and his cronies.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Linus: -1
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Linus: -1"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Personally I see it as a comparison to Hitler and his kind.

I don't see any reason to avoid such a comparison. Gnome simplification takes freedom away from people - Hitler took freedom away from people.

Gnome-devs are telling people what to do and no to do - Hitler told people what to do and not to do.

The Interface Nazi comment is perfectly okay. Using the prefix "Nazi" to make you understand that somebody is forcing other people to something is quite common - at least in Denmark.

We have words like ligusterhæksfascist, adfærdsfascist, pædagogfascist and so on. Communist and nazi can also be used to show that somebody is forcing other people to something.

So no reason to be upset about Linus' words of choice. They make it easier to understand him.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Linus: -1
by Chreo on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:50 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Linus: -1"
Chreo Member since:
2005-07-06

So no reason to be upset about Linus' words of choice. They make it easier to understand him.

I completely disagree. You have to put the words in context to the general mood of his post and then his use of "F.I" and "Nazis" is very bad given his "status" in the OSS community. "Benevolent dictator" has never seemed more right...

A "Nazi" is not what most people associate with someone who forces people to do things, neither is a "commie". The word "Nazi" is in every way a strong insult rather than just saying someone "who force people to do things".

His actual sentiment abotu Gnome/KDE may have merit but worded the way he did it then the point is nullified fer me. He could've worded it differently and made the point anyway.

Not the type of person I'd want heading something like Linux... but that is just me, obviously.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Linus: -1
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Linus: -1"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, it's very common in Denmark to use fascist, nazi or communist about people who are forcing something on to somebody else.

It's not a nice way to put things, but it's efficient and very common (at least in Denmark).

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Linus: -1
by STTS on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:56 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Linus: -1"
STTS Member since:
2005-07-06

BTW, here in Russia we seems to stop to use "fashist" and replace to words like "amerokos" in the same cases, and more common after Yugolsavia and other "Pure freedom to Iraq (saddam nuke anyone? nice prices, free modern totrute chamber photo included)" or "Your have not enough freedom ? Just a second, We know what you need and come to you" bloody acts.

Linus is right in his try to force GNOME devs to do something new, but words he use . 2.X series is really stalled. Where is uniform cairo rendered GUI that can be scaled to any size and printed ? expect in 2007 ? Worst font randering engine in universe (gamma + kerning + integer coords everyware) and KDE use it too but I hate to compare GNOMe to KDE, I always compare GNOME and my imaginary "Ideal Desktop". There is no excuse to talk about vector display and still have ancient bitmap icons/theme. Button order or print dialog is only small part of issues. I hope that GNOME make changes to 3.0 faster after such loud public scandalistic discussion.

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: Linus: -1
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:59 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: Linus: -1"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Font rendering in Gnome is good. Freetype2 with BCI enabled beats the crap out of ClearType, no matter what kind of monitor we're talking about.

Gnome+FreeType2 with BCI enabled is equal to Mac OS X in regard to quality. They have many similarities in regard to font rendering, incl. subpixeling. Same basic techniques, beating ClearType again.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
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I thought it was Tridge?? Tanenbaum wrote Minix.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Linus: -1
by ValiantSoul on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Linus: -1"
ValiantSoul Member since:
2005-07-20

Yes Tanenbaum did write Minix - he also had a huge flamewar with Linus about linux. See http://www.dina.kvl.dk/%7Eabraham/Linus_vs_Tanenbaum.html

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
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Thanks. I thought he was referring to the recent bitkeeper wars...

Reply Score: 0

Sigh...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Where the actual developpers tend to be able to actually discuss matters like the print dialog with mutual respect for their design principles, Linus once again fails to see the global picture and resorts to 'colorful language' to get an extremely egocentric point across.

Honestly... I would have a hard time finding people over the age of 20 to not find his post childish and uninformed.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: Why?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:17 UTC
Example of why I don't get Gnome's usability
by jbauer on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:22 UTC
jbauer
Member since:
2005-07-06

http://mail.gnome.org/archives/usability/2005-December/msg00021.htm...

Frederic told that the options from the PPD file are intentionally not listed in the printing dialog, the usability team of GNOME was against listing these options. They clutter the dialog and can be more confusing than useful to the user.

For me, everything that's wrong with how Gnome approaches usability is summed up in that paragraph. Instead of discussing ways of presenting those features in a way understandable and not intimidating for a user, they just choose to just throw them away. Screw all those who might find them useful. Ladies and Gentlemen, problem solved at the blink of an eye.

Reply Score: 5

Anonymous Member since:
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> everything that's wrong with how Gnome approaches usability is summed up in that paragraph.

It would be if it were true. But it's not. In "he said he said" information is often lost.

Reply Score: 1

i agree
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:27 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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i agree that linus could have used better words, but i have to agree with im 100%. Gnome is just not usable, kde has so many applications and technologies that are so much better than what is in gnome, you cant even compare it( look at k3b, kopete, kpdf, konqueror(with the kio's))

Reply Score: 2

RE: i agree
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:08 UTC in reply to "i agree"
Anonymous Member since:
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"i agree that linus could have used better words, but i have to agree with im 100%. Gnome is just not usable, kde has so many applications and technologies that are so much better than what is in gnome, you cant even compare it( look at k3b, kopete, kpdf, konqueror(with the kio's))"

It's more than a gnome/kde war, it's a gtk/qt war. And perhaps the best apps are QT, except the gimp, audacity and inkscape, i can't think of any other gtk app that's irreplaceable.
QT/kde = Digikam, Koffice, Kopete, Konversation, Kontact ( Kontact is way beyond evolution, Kontact IS the unix philosophy of "one app for one task". Evolution is bloatware that's copying Microsoft, like mono, like all things that MDI loves. ), QT is also the best music utils and apps : Qjackctl, Soundgarden, Muse, Qsampler and more.
QT is also Konqueror and Opera, the best unix browsers, ever.
It's KDevelop too and quanta. Can't compare these great apps with the anjutas, monodevelop and other bluefishs.

Or K3B. The true nero for linux.

KDE is all about freedom of choice. You can tweak it to death without needing to modify some crap config files or using the WindowsXP Registry Editor, err, *gconf*.

Final, QT is not as sliced shit boring dependecies hell as GTK. QT is *complete*, gtk apps use more and more librairies that can make you scream the hell in earth with all those dependencies. God, Patrick Volkerding got it right and dropped gnome from slackware.

Reply Score: 5

RE: i agree
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:13 UTC in reply to "i agree"
Anonymous Member since:
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It's pretty clear that "KDE's" more fully featured than GNOME, and to me, has a smoother, more solid, and more responsive feel - that said, "GNOME's" typically less resource hungry (not that that's a huge issue going forward) - both projects are making good incremental progress and the ongoing interaction/discussion between the two, will benefit both.

All good ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: i agree
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:20 UTC in reply to "RE: i agree"
Anonymous Member since:
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""GNOME's" typically less resource hungry (not that that's a huge issue going forward)"

You are wrong. KDE itself maybe is little seconds longer to load but the KDE/QT apps are more fast/reactives. Try KDE/Konqueror, then load Firefox or Galeon or Epiphany on gnome. Konqueror is way more fast.

Reply Score: 2

interface nazis
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The real interface nazis work at Apple Computer.

Reply Score: 0

RE: interface nazis
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:28 UTC in reply to "interface nazis"
Anonymous Member since:
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Amen to that!

Reply Score: 0

...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Come on guys... we haven't reached a 100 on comments ;)

I have an idea ! Let's fight over which one of those two is better: Emacs or Vi
Yeah, let's do that.

Or even better: AMD vs Intel
No ?

How about: bash vs sh
Yes, that's the one. I vote for bash, screw you all sh users.

This is so stupid

Reply Score: 1

He's a Geek
by Mystilleef on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:33 UTC
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

Linus is a geek. Of course, he's going to prefer KDE. Geeks hardly give a damn about the aesthetics or usability of graphic user interfaces. These are some of the same people in the early 90s who would have said, "Who needs a GUI?" I have advice for desktop application developers. Don't focus on the geeks. They will drive you nuts. They will never be satisfied. They will always say your software sucks. Yeap, I said it. Now you can pelt me.

So what was Linus' peeve with GNOME? Something along the line of wanting to bind mouse buttons to window management actions. Now when was the last time 99% of the computing world wanted to do that?

Reply Score: 0

RE: He's a Geek
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

You know, you should actually read what he says before disagreeing with him:

"> The majority of end-users want a simple printer dialog.

This is a great example of being a F.I.

There is no such thing as a "majority of end users" in general. For example, maybe _I_ am in what you _claim_ to be a majority, in that I want a simple printer dialog - because I have a simple printer, and even simpler printer needs.

So a simple printer dialog doesn't bother me, and as such you can count me in your "majority".

But I can guarantee you one thing: the _vast_ majority of people are part of a specific minority when it comes to something. This is somethign that the F.I. "interface designers" in the Gnome sense seems to continually overlook.

For example, maybe I don't care about printers. But I _do_ care about my mouse. If I can't control the left/middle/right button actions, I get really upset. Again, the "majority" of people may not care, so by your majority argument, the mouse setup should be so simple that the majority of people can never get confused. But I _do_ care.

In other words: your "majority" argument is total and utter BULLSHIT. It can be true for any particular feature, but it's simply not true in general.

To put it in mathematical terms: "The Intersection of all Majorities is the empty set", or its corollary: "The Union of even the smallest minorities is the universal set".

It's a total logical fallacy to think that the intersection of two majorities would still be a majority. It is pretty damn rare, in fact, because these things are absolutely not correlated.

And the technical term for somebody who claims to do user interface design and not understand this fact is a "f--kING IDIOT".

And this has _nothing_ to do with "technical users". Even totally non-technical users care about something. In fact, it might be their printer, and having a way to set the paper type and resolution by hand.

Another way of saying this: we're _all_ "special" some way. We're damn quirky, even the nontechnical among us.

But hey, just continue to remove all that confusing functionality from Gnome. I don't care. I voted with my feet.
Linus "

Now, I don't agree with the way he say it, but he definately makes an interesting point here.

Reply Score: 2

Linus' authority
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:46 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Linus is a coder. Linus is a user.

Linus has coded at a higher level, and managed a larger, more complex project than 99.9% of people commenting here. He's a better programmer, manager and visionary than me.

He is a user of desktop systems, and has contributed more, both in terms of patches and discussion to both Gnome and KDE than 99.9% of people commenting here.

He has good experience that should grant him authority, so if you disagree, you disagree; but don't have a go at him.

And if he says that there is a problem, we as a community should listen, because he has experience that backs up what he is saying, and that should tell us that there are real problems that need to be addressed.

Reply Score: 4

Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:46 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Personally I think that all of you guys have serious mental problems by discussing these topics with such passion. Have you ever seen the daylight in the last months?! Please crawl out of you parent's cellar and find a girl to get laid, though I doubt that most of you know what that means without consulting google (with Firefox of course). That will maybe clear your twisted minds on life. And, to complete the picture, install Windows. It will save you all these "troubles" you have with that grey box I call computer, and you call girlfriend. Bye!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by Soulbender on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:52 UTC in reply to "Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"And, to complete the picture, install Windows. It will save you all these "troubles" you have with that grey box I call computer, and you call girlfriend."

Actually, Windows is much more time consuming to install and not as suitable for me as, say, Ubuntu or OpenBSD.
So no thanks, I'd rather not get gray hairs at a young age and I prefer to spend time with my girlfriend (of flesh and blood, not plastic...) rather being constantly infuriated by Windows and it's many shortcomings.

Reply Score: 1

@Soulbender
by rockwell on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//and I prefer to spend time with my girlfriend (of flesh and blood, not plastic...) rather being constantly infuriated by Windows and it's many shortcomings.//

As I prefer to spend time with my wife and kids, (whom sometimes act as smart as plastic) ... which is why I don't use KDE or GNOME, both with astronomical shortcomings.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by DigitalAxis on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:14 UTC in reply to "Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
DigitalAxis Member since:
2005-08-28

Actually I'm just reading this article for the sheer entertainment value of watching the aforementioned passion... I know what I like, and unless someone universally mandates that I can't use it any more I really don't care much.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:16 UTC in reply to "Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

*LOL*

Another mindless employee at the Centre for Organized Criminality in Redmond.

Reply Score: 1

v ghghgh
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:47 UTC
RE[3]: Linus: -1
by Shade on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:47 UTC
Shade
Member since:
2005-07-07

"He has a responsibility too. Meaning he has to weigh his words and thoughts just a little bit more than people like you and me, with little to no authority or responsibility."

The only 'responsibility' he ever signed up for was to make a kernel capable of 'world domination'. Period. (And to have fun a get paid doing it.) That's why Tux is the Logo NOT Linus. He's an engineer not an Icon-- and there is every indication that he prefers it that way.

All other considerations are JUST PR considerations. And are frankly 'just crap' for most people. This is why we have a (global) generation of politicians who are telegenic, try to be comedians, try to be empathetic, try to be these puritanical 'superfolk'-- who are forced to spend so much time on the PR game that they can't actually govern...

You can't blame an engineer for not wanting to go down that road...

Reply Score: 3

RE[4]: Linus: -1
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Linus: -1"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The only 'responsibility' he ever signed up for was to make a kernel capable of 'world domination'. Period.

You don't always 'sign up' for responsibilities. Most of the time they come and go, whether you like it or not.

That's why Tux is the Logo NOT Linus.

So, then why do people attack Bill Gates so much about Windows? I don't see Bill Gates' head as the Windows logo either.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:49 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
---

You are aware that there is a gaping hole in your logic. Whatever Bill Gates sells you is what you have to use. With Linux, if you don't like how Linus's version of the kernel is, you can pick it up and make your own version. for better or for worse. I realise that this is unlikely to happen at this point given the momentum in the Linus version of things but it could have happened at any point along the way.

As far as Linus's responsibilities are concerned, those lie in the perception of other people and Linus has never before suggested that he cares about people or their perceptions. So while I do not agree with his approach, I think he has been consistent about it.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Linus: -1
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Linus: -1"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Linus has no responsibility apart from being true to himself.

People attack Bill Gates because Bill Gates == Microsoft and Microsoft == Bill Gates.

However, Linus != Linux and Linux != Linus.

Linus is not responsible for Gnome developers, nor are they responsible for him.

Bill Gates are however responsible for MS. He IS Microsoft. His words are law - the same cannot be said about Linus.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Linus: -1
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:29 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Linus: -1"
Anonymous Member since:
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> However, Linus != Linux and Linux != Linus.

Oh. But Linux DOES equal Linux. In the eyes of the press he does, in the eyes of the general public he does, in the eyes of corporate CEOs he does, etc. He is unofficial spokes person for Linux whether he likes it or not. And what he says and how he behaves reflects on the entire community, whether anyone likes it or not.

> Bill Gates are however responsible for MS. He
> IS Microsoft. His words are law - the same cannot
> be said about Linus.

I hate to burst your simplified dictatorship view of MS. But corporations don't work that way. They have things like a board of directors and so on, which they are required to have by law. Bill Gates is just the most visible frontman at MS. The reality is when it comes to making real decisions, he probably makes less than Linus does.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Linus: -1
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:47 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Linus: -1"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yes Linux == Linux. But Linus != Linux.

Linux is the kernel, Linus is the coder. And they're spelled differently.

Gates has more influence in MS than Linus has in Gnome. But I don't doubt Linus makes more real decisions than Bill Gates, but that is not relevant. What is relevant is the level at which these decisions are taken.

At that level Linus != Linux, but Gates == Microsoft.

Reply Score: 1

v Linus is a joke
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:48 UTC
This sounds like a challenge
by aGNUstic on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:51 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

Seriously. His quote sounds like a challenge to the GNOME users. He is saying improve your code. Read what he 'saying' and not just the type.

Reply Score: 2

RE: This sounds like a challenge
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:09 UTC in reply to "This sounds like a challenge"
Anonymous Member since:
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No, he called the Gnome developers "f--king idiots" and encouraged everyone to use KDE instead. That's hardly what I would call constructive criticism. Please read the whole thread. I think the Gnome developers responded fairly reasonably and rationally.

Reply Score: 0

RE: This sounds like a challenge
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:26 UTC in reply to "This sounds like a challenge"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Seriously. His quote sounds like a challenge to the GNOME users. He is saying improve your code. Read what he 'saying' and not just the type."

I agree 100%!
I prefer KDE.

Reply Score: 0

Gnome succeeded
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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In some way: Finally some regognition that gnome succeeded in being the most user-friendly desktop.

I use KDE, also for the power-options, but Linus should have discussions with a more polite tone. It's all about choice. If linus doesn't like gnome, fine, use KDE, but don't troll like this. ;)

Reply Score: 0

Gnome & Linus
by JCooper on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:55 UTC
JCooper
Member since:
2005-07-06

Sorry to point out the obvious, but Gnome is just not designed for people like Linus. Its not designed for your run of the mill geek who hacks kernels and knows what .conf links to which menu tab.

Gnome is designed to have sensible defaults, present options based on the necessary configuration choices, and culminate in a simplistic environment.

Linus - fair enough, if you like KDE, use it. I'm sure it makes you happy. But do not complain about another open source project just because it doesn't fit your neeeds. That's just unprofessional and unnecessary.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Gnome & Linus
by dark child on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:10 UTC in reply to "Gnome & Linus"
dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

It seems like people are just modding up pro gnome articles even if they don't really have much substance.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: File Manager
by getaceres on Tue 13th Dec 2005 11:57 UTC
getaceres
Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, it works. You get the text edit and you put the path to the file.
It would be right if the dialog closed immediatly opening the given file, but instead, it opens the directory containing the file and selects the file automatically. So, if you have a huge directory (as /usr/bin is) you have to wait until it shows all the entries of that directory only to open a file that you know exactly where it is.

Reply Score: 1

Torvalds is irrelevant
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:01 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

"Torvalds is becoming irrelevant as his child grows out of his control. It seems he has become resentful of this fact and now resorts to cheap remarks in a futile attempt to get some attention. "

i don't see this trend either. wanna back up those statements?

torvalds can say what he likes, just like you.

Reply Score: 1

i prefer to more simple window manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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so i use twm while X server in windows. and when using linux i use fvwm

Reply Score: 1

stiring the hornets nest.
by sc3252 on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:17 UTC
sc3252
Member since:
2005-09-06

Yes torvalds is, also I hate kde, I hate it. how am I supposed to watch my edecational video's(sure) if I cant see a small image of what it is. So please tell me!

Reply Score: 0

my 2 cents
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:18 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Personally i use gnome because the billion of check box and all the redundant k* apps of KDE makes me sick, but i also respect the opinion of Linus who seems to be coherent with his needs and i appreciate his pragmatism over the 'ideology' or 'philosophy' which are the common motto in the free community.

Reply Score: 1

RE: my 2 cents
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:28 UTC in reply to "my 2 cents"
Anonymous Member since:
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and all the redundant k* apps of KDE makes me sick

Its worth noting that you can avoid this by primarily utilising kdebase on it's own (with deps)... - in this "minimal" format "KDE" makes a pleasing, "lightweight" desktop ;)

Reply Score: 0

Everything he complains about ...
by pauls101 on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:20 UTC
pauls101
Member since:
2005-07-07

is why I prefer Gnome. I do the absolute minimum of customization on all OS's: maybe a different (plain color) desktop if the stock one is too annoying, but no themes, etc, ever and very rarely anything else. KDE is a giant mass of features I don't need or want, and I'd rather not have to sort throught them. For that matter, I'd use Gnome for spatial browsing alone (and I don't have to set that!)

The only time I ever use KDE intentionally is for KDevelop, which just doesn't work with Gnome (understandably.)

Reply Score: 2

Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:20 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This will be a long long (C99) thread, for nothing!

Linus has right to an opinion, probably it's not a polite opinion but is an opinion.

And here in Europe, i can say that we understand him, because we like KDE, but every project has a plus, GNOME has it, KDE has it, XFCE has. But i do really understand his opinion has "a move" to GNOME dev's to be more tenacious.

It would be better try, to understand what he is saying, that just troll, because of the title... ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:39 UTC in reply to "Long Long NULL"
Anonymous Member since:
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>> And here in Europe, i can say that we understand him

Euh... as a French GNOME user (and lover), I can tell you that, here in Europe, we don't understand him ;)

Please don't over-generalize. There are people in Europe who prefer GNOME over KDE.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Long Long NULL"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> as a French GNOME user (and lover), I can tell you
> that, here in Europe, we don't understand him ;)

Looks like france has a general problem in understanding things. Refering to the recent happenings with nightly car BBQ.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Long Long NULL"
Anonymous Member since:
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Do you mean that poor people burn cars down because they are force to use KDE ? That would be understandable ;)

No, seriously, you're just an ignorant racist.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Long Long NULL"
Anonymous Member since:
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IF you look at statistics, you'll find i'm right. Sorry, but you may like gnome but in europe kde is the preferencial DE/WM. At my university, the stats are obvious 68% kde, 23% gnome, 9% others.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:58 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Long Long NULL"
Anonymous Member since:
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>> IF you look at statistics, you'll find i'm right.

OK, like which one ?

Reply Score: 0

v RE[5]: Long Long NULL
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Long Long NULL"
RE[6]: Long Long NULL
by cm__ on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:14 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Long Long NULL"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> Who tha f*** are you to say that in Europe most of
> users use KDE ? I'm from Slovenia and I use GNOME
> since day one.
>
> What are you going to do now, attack me ? attack my country ?


I for one would politely suggest opening a dictionary and looking up the meaning of the word "most".



> It's like I'd say "white people use GNOME" wtf ?!


Aren't you going *way* overboard here?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Long Long NULL
by progster on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Long Long NULL"
progster Member since:
2005-07-27

I think you'll find that since ubuntu came into existence gnome usage in europe has risen quite a bit. All my friends run gnome for example (while they used the run a variety of WM/DE's). The standard DE at my university is also gnome... (on debian ;) )

Reply Score: 1

What about developers
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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People are all talking about users... But what about developers???

Have you ever tried to develop a Gnome application? Do you know what it takes to integrate applications in Gnome?

Have you ever comprared GTK to QT?
Do you know what integration is? Have you ever tried to integrate GTK applications on a Gnome desktop? It's a nightmare!

For software developers GTK/Gnome is a complete mess! Sure it might be "simple" for new users but there won't be any applications if developers don't write for it; and most developers I know think GTK is a mess.

Reply Score: 4

RE: What about developers
by Ookaze on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:46 UTC in reply to "What about developers"
Ookaze Member since:
2005-11-14

Have you ever tried to develop a Gnome application? Do you know what it takes to integrate applications in Gnome?

yes and yes. It really is not hard : use most stock objects from GTK and Gnome.

Have you ever comprared GTK to QT?

Yes, a long time ago. Came to the conclusion that they can't be compared, one use C and the other C++.

Do you know what integration is? Have you ever tried to integrate GTK applications on a Gnome desktop? It's a nightmare!

No it's not. You don't have to do anything, except perhaps following the HIG. If you really want to integrate a GTK app on Gnome, you have to transform your app in a Gnome app. Of course it's harder, as to make things correctly, you have to provide documentation, i18n, a11y, follow the HIG, ...

For software developers GTK/Gnome is a complete mess! Sure it might be "simple" for new users but there won't be any applications if developers don't write for it; and most developers I know think GTK is a mess.

And what is your connection between "mess" and "developers don't write for it" ?
Gnome is full of cruft that developers try hard to clean up and it lacks good up to date documentation or tutorials.
It's not perfect, but I don't think it's a mess.

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
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As few others have mentioned I'd like to like Gnome - it looks so nice and clean - but until it can come up with a working drag and drop menu editor it's going out the window as far as I'm concerned. Yes I know you can delve here and there in bits of xml or whatever, but as a user I'm not interested in that. At least KDE gives that amount of control in keeping its mess of appliKations under Kontrol - having said that, why isn't there some Kind of app name management in force - I mean Krita??? ok that's 'K rita' - sounds like 'K writer', must be an editor?? Nope! Kooka - scanning??? doh! noatun???? I mean come on folks what kind of impression are you trying to give the business world that may be looking at linux. Suits are not interested in Kewl so grow up and sort out this mess - please!
Reminder - I'm pro KDE

Reply Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Kind of app name management in force - I mean Krita??? ok that's 'K rita' - sounds like 'K writer', must be an editor?"

"Krita" is the swedish words for "crayon" and "rita" is the swedish word for "draw".

Reply Score: 3

Anonymous Member since:
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I'd love a drag and drop menu editor in GNOME. KDE has one, but I always manage to make it loose some items or entire menus after a couple of changes.

In the end, I prefer no functionality, rather than a buggy one. And god knows I really really want a menu editor!

Reply Score: 1

breath of fresh air!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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i agree with torvalds on this. but for me the eclipsing factor is that gnome appears to be smooth and simple, yet uinderneath is a morass of worms. kde is simpler in structure, better designed, more text-based (gconf?), and less bloaty. i can use any UI - so i use one that i have some faith in. cleaner design wins out anyday. for the record i use XFCE but wish it wasn't so tied up with gtk/gnome.

Reply Score: 1

The One Truth
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:24 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Finally, someone who might get listened to has said something about the dumbing down of the interface in Gnome. Its a useless piece of crap, and while thats sensational, the fact that I can't do half the things I need in Gnome is just as bad, so bad, I refuse to use it. Who am I? Noone in the end, but theres a bloody lot of noones out there with the same feeling. Get your act together you GUI nazis.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Linus: -1
by Shade on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:29 UTC
Shade
Member since:
2005-07-07

"You don't always 'sign up' for responsibilities. Most of the time they come and go, whether you like it or not."
In most cases those things fall into these categories:
-Things that are your wards (Children, pets, etc.)
-Basic responsibilities in relation to the 'public good' (Not storing radioactive waste in the basement, not robbing the public purse, etc.).

Now, you could make a case that the kernel is Linus' 'child', or the Linux movement is his 'child' [The FSF would get cranky though ;) ]. But, I suspect that his children are his 'child(ren)' You could also try to make the case that him being a good 'PR' lapdog benefits the 'public good'(It being free software and all). True enough. But umm, doesn't him being a good software engineer benefit the 'public good' more? (And wasn't that his original contribution to the public good?) Would him being a good PR poster boy help him engineer a better kernel? Or would it just be a distraction? Would it prevent him from speaking his mind on 'kernel issues'? Given his brand of wit, we are probably better off with Tux, and more of those glossy IBM commercials.

"So, then why do people attack Bill Gates so much about Windows? I don't see Bill Gates' head as the Windows logo either."

Because bill gates is using Bill Gates as a PR tool. Bill Gates speech on the XBox launch, Bill Gates on the Forbes 500, Bill Gates the philanthropist, Bill Gates this--- Bill Gates that- He's deliberately commodified himself. Of course, the he (and the PR industry) wouldn't be able to do this if there wasn't something in the 'genome' that draws people to this sort of thing.

When was the last round of Linus media interviews? It was over the SCO debacle if I'm not mistaken. Quite a bit different that the 'all press is good press' mentality, IMHO.

Reply Score: 3

rotating wall papers
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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many "simple" users like gui effects and download a barrage of spywares, etc. to achieve it, aeonflux screensavers, etc.

I guarantee that many "simple" users would prefer kde simply because it is easy to get the wallpapers to rotate, however it lacks screensavers integrated out of the box.

cybical but true.

javajazz

Reply Score: 0

X-Mess
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:33 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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If X + mylib_this_week wasn't such as mess then it might get more developers.

Yes KDE is "better" than Gnome, from both the useability and coding perspective

If KDE could see its way to letting people write commercial code without the need for a fee (dump the dual liscence in QT) then more people would back the clear winner - in the longer time the good gnome applications would be migrated (gimp, evolution etc) and the best bits of open office (ie the not slow buggy and crap bits) would be migrated to KOffice .... then and only then would *nix have a true consistent desktop the genral public would take an interest in.

Reply Score: 0

Go Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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For a long time I ran Fluxbox and just started Gnome and KDE programs from that. Once I met an ftp client that didn't fit on a 1024*768 screen (KDE based) I decided I was never going that way. It may be easier to perform certain actions in KDE, but if that's the case I'm not noticing the lack of the possibility in Gnome - which is what I've moved over to in the meanwhile. Gnome is imho the closest thing to a consistent and user friendly UI in the non-OS X *nix world. If an app only exists in a KDE version I don't even want to use it today.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Go Gnome
by Kurt on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:37 UTC in reply to "Go Gnome"
Kurt Member since:
2005-07-11

So you take a fundamentalist approach on the software you use just because you have seen one piece of bad software?

*sigh*

Reply Score: 1

Both these user interfaces suck equally.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I use Gnome every day and KDE from time to time.
KDE always reminds me of windows 98 on steroids.
Gnome seems to do very little. I usually use the shell to do anything useful.
Neither of these user interfaces are very useful and they both clutter the display with garbage control panels.
Someone please port the BEOS tracker to Linux.
Both Gnome and KDE simply suck.

Reply Score: 0

FINALLY!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:36 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Lots of people have been complaining that Gnome is the only OS project that provides LESS functionality release after release. Yet, the "Deciders" of de-facto standard for Linux desktops continue to moan about "Fitt's Law". Face it, Fitt was just some dood and his "Law" isn't a law in the sense of the "Law of gravity". Making something useable for a majority of grandmothers does not make it any more useable for me. I'm with Linus... voting with my feet. Cya Gnome!

Reply Score: 1

Lost the plot
by sean batten on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:39 UTC
sean batten
Member since:
2005-07-06

I've said it before, Linus has lost the plot. This hasn't been a good year for him in terms of outbursts.

Simplicity is a good goal to strive for, and the Gnome team should be congratulated for it. Perhaps if Linus storve for simplicity Linux would be more successful in the desktop arena. I've lost count of the number of times I've had to rebuild a driver because the versioning if different between kernel versions.

Reply Score: 0

Gnome is not for everyone
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:39 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus prefers KDE and finds Gnome's approach inflexible. Does anyone really find that surprising. For some reason people are attacking him because he's pointing out the obvious! What do you think the HIG and removing all the options actually means to people whose nature is to modify and tweak things?

How do you decide which DE or WM you setup for a user? Or do you force everyone use what you use? If you believe in a DE monoculture ... why the hell are you using Linux with hundreds of distros and over a dozen WMs?

Cheers
rob

Reply Score: 1

RE: Gnome is not for everyone
by Soulbender on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:47 UTC in reply to "Gnome is not for everyone"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"For some reason people are attacking him because he's pointing out the obvious!"

People wouldnt have attacked him if his post hadnt been so unnecessarily inflammatory.
Maybe he's morphing into Theo DeRaadt?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Gnome is not for everyone
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:53 UTC in reply to "RE: Gnome is not for everyone"
Anonymous Member since:
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> People wouldnt have attacked him if his post hadnt been
> so unnecessarily inflammatory.

Heul doch!!!!

Reply Score: 0

v Linus should stop beating around the bush
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:42 UTC
Corporate users
by moleskine on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:43 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

Which is the lead up to the next statement logical question: if not you [Linus Torvalds], then who are we targeting? I think the answer there is reasonably well understood in the GNOME design communities but misunderstood outside of that core group. At this point we're interested in corporate users (office, productivity, mobile users), fixed function users (people who do only one or two things) and some subset of hackers. But I guess not hackers who want to configure everything themselves.

This is the key quote from the exchange. It pays re-reading. Many of the frustrations people have about Gnome can be explained by this. Gnome is going after a quite specific group of users, so comparing Gnome and KDE is chalk and cheese.

Then there is the self-regarding little mention of "hackers" - nothing as dull as developer or software engineer for these guys.

I guess one wonders why the Gnome Foundation are so poor at communicating their goals. If more folks realized that Gnome has the limitations these Apple-toting "hackers" say it has, then far fewer people might be making it their default desktop.

Reply Score: 2

It's not a surprise...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:45 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus is a hacker. He hacks the kernel. He's one of those bearded weirdos (even if he doesn't have a beard) ;) What did you expect from one of them ?

If a desktop project listens to kernel hackers' opinion in usability or design, it has already failed, IMO.

Reply Score: 0

One Laptop Per Child (The Linus Way)
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:46 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Dear Child,

Welcome to your new laptop. Your laptop runs the Linux 2.6.12 kernel. If you find the performace of your kernel lacking or there are features you feel missing your are welcome to modify the kernel configuration and recompile it using the GCC compiler. With a working kernal you are now ready for your transition in to the 1st world.

Child: Whats a laptop? Whats a Kernel? Whats a GCC?

At school you may be asked to write some kind of report. To do this you may use either the emacs or vi editor. Dont be confused intially by how difficult they are to use, after 2 years of use you will find their keybings to be great time savers.

Child: Whats a program? Whats an Editor? Whats a keybinding?

Now child, if you are faced with a problem that you do no know the answer to then you may use 'the internet' to find that answer. I find the best way to do this is to use IRC or usenet. Dont be put off by the difficulty in using them, there are plenty of programs you can use to read the information available. There is also this new thing called the 'www'. I do not know too much about that but there is this wonderful browser called lynx which may help you browse the 'www'. Remember to learn lynx's keybindings though!

Child: Whats a internet?

Now I also recommend the KDE desktop environment. Dont worry if it takes you a while to configure it how you like, the increased efficieny in which you can navigate around your filesystem and launch programs will be worth it. Speaking of which, KDE is great because if you do not like how a program operates there are 7 different alternatives programs capable of acomplising any given task already installed. Dont forget to set each programs keybings though!

Child: WTF??? - Throws laptop down well

And this is why linus does not design desktop environments. Please no-one take this to heart

Reply Score: 5

WooHoo!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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yeah! tell em Linus!!!

KDE Rules!!!

in your face Gnome!!!

i quit liking gnome when Gnome-1.4 was made obsolete, the 2.xx series totally sucks!!!

Reply Score: 0

RE: WooHoo!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:53 UTC in reply to "WooHoo!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
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I think you forgot some "!!11!!1!!!!!1!!!1 roflolzorz" at the end of each sentence.

Reply Score: 0

Specialists
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:54 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Maybe now we'll listen to Jeff Waugh's opinion on kernel development...

Reply Score: 1

v Free Softwarw? Just a English Toy
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 12:55 UTC
RE: Huh?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Actually if you read the Linus press carefully, when he gets annoyed (as he has here), he'll say exactly what he means and diplomacy be damned.

Reply Score: 0

have you read the help document first
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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you have to switch to mark mode first

or click an the CMD window's Icon ,
property=> Edit option.=>Quick Edit Mode

Reply Score: 0

True, but
by unoengborg on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:03 UTC
unoengborg
Member since:
2005-07-06

"If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do."

That may be so, but if we could target the "idiot" type of user, the Linux desktop user base would increase significantly.

You have to realize that asking what DE is best for Linux users, and what DE is best for Linux, currently are two very different questions.

It is just as true that if you design for the elite, only the elite will use it. The difference is, that people that are not idiots will be able to switch to KDE by themselves, the "idiots" on the other hand will not be able to switch from KDE to Gnome.

So perhaps Mr Torvalds (if he actually wrote this) should leave usability to people that knows more about people than computers.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: if linus prefer kde over gnome...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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+1 agree!

Reply Score: 0

Comparing?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I think, Gnome does a great contribution to Free Software, because they strive to make it simple, and the best of their Ideas will be carried on by others and benefit tp all like that.

What I think really useful would be links to a comparision of those two with the fokus on the people to whom certain features appeal.

Then it would be far easier to decide which one to recommend to the different kinds of newcomers.

Wishes,
Arne

Reply Score: 1

RE: Comparing?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:07 UTC in reply to "Comparing?"
Anonymous Member since:
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What's the point with making UI simple if you can't do what you want it to do, the way you want to do it? There are users out there who do not want UI designers making too many decisions for them by limiting what they can and cannot do. I rather have too many choices than no choices at all. Gnome, in its current state, is taking too much away from users that some people feel their intelligence is being insulted. I'm being one of these people.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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got to love KDE!!!

Reply Score: 0

About giving the user too much choices
by Anonymous! on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:19 UTC
Anonymous!
Member since:
2005-11-11

This article is somewhat related to the issue:

http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/374

In my opinion, this matter is so clear that Linus could understand it if someone would explain it slowly to him: different users simply have different needs.

Not all users want to fiddle with every knob - some users just want to get their work done. Some users care about aesthetics and some do not. Giving a user choices she doesn't understand is often even a security hazard.

It's interesting to see that usability has obviously never been a design goal for Linus Torvald when he wrote the Linux kernel. Linux is about hacking and tweaking by design - looks like a hobbyist thing to me. It's not a coincidence that other Unix/BSD systems give users a far more clean and consistent experience, because some projects take these things seriously as a design goal.

Reply Score: 3

Everyone has an opinion
by Huehuecoyotyl on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:19 UTC
Huehuecoyotyl
Member since:
2005-11-09

...and just because Linus is a public figure with influence does not exempt him from having one. I saw no personal attacks, but clear and concise criticism in his comments. He is entitled to complain or make suggestions just like everyone else. Surely the size of his contribution to the community should earn him the right to make valid suggestions and criticisms of a project that he disagrees with. Quit acting like he betrayed the community.

Reply Score: 2

I agree with Linus, with qualifications
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:25 UTC
MamiyaOtaru
Member since:
2005-11-11

I agree with Linux entirely, though it is dangerous to say such stuff around here (I would not phrase my opinions so roughly though). His reasons for preferring KDE are my reasons.

Those are my reasons *for myself* though. Unlike him, I am not as certain about reasons (or lack of them) to recommend one over the other for the general public.

"If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it." This is very harsh sounding on the surface. However, Gnome is trying to be a project for the average computer user, and the average computer user is a computer idiot (face it, people want their computers to work like their toaster, and want to have knowledge of how they work). I think Gnome fails in some of their goals, but they actually are aiming at the (computer) idiot as Linus says.

That doesn't mean KDE isn't as well, but they do (IMHO) a better job at also reaching out to the advanced users, the type of user who would realistically actually be using Linux right now.

And of course plenty of advanced users like Gnome, so one can't say Gnome leaves them out in the cold either. Things are obviously not black and white. KDE can work for the newbie (ask Xandros) and plenty of advanced types prefer Gnome.

Still, my reasons remain valid for me, and they are pretty much what Linus enumerated. Choice remains for those who feel differently, and Linus won't be taking that away, so we can continue to have our two big DEs and the lovely discussions about them ;)

Reply Score: 1

v F&ck both Gnome and KDE
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:26 UTC
KDE > Gnome
by rx182 on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:32 UTC
rx182
Member since:
2005-07-08

PLEASE READ THEN MOD ME DOWN/EXPRESS YOUR FRUSTRATIONS -- BUT I DO WANNA KNOW WHAT YOU GUYS THINK

Hi, I just want to add my 0,02$ because I think we are all concerned about this. The never ending KDE vs Gnome battle is almost like the Linux vs no Linux battle. It does matter. And I do believe that the WM in a Linux distribution is the number one factor of its success. Not only its success, but Linux success.

I do agree with Linus. Gnome sucks. Why? Linus said it all. It doesn't do what you want most of the time (unexpected behaviors) and it forces you to use it in a way you probably don't like. Take for exemple the font config dialog of Gnome. What the ... is that? Best shapes, best this, best that. OMG. Can I be free to consider what is best and what is not? This is one single exemple but there are others. Why not just allow me to pick up fonts and set properties like Anti-Aliasing directly? WAY LESS CONFUSING. And I don't believe in the Gnome number one excuse: "it would confuse too much people". Lies. These folks are just unable to deliver alot of changes within an acceptable amount of time. Yes, I do believe that Gnome developers are way less experienced than KDE ones. Gnome is still way too much simplistic after all these years...

So, all you guys want to tell me: use KDE and shut the ... up for god sakes! But it's not as simple as that. Like I said, the WM is the number one factor of a distro's success (for most people). We all know it's pain in the ass to use a Gnome centric distro (like Fedoracore) when you want to use KDE. Everything is GTK based and the KDE integration isn't really good. Finally, you really do have to pick up a KDE centric distro but they are rare these days (enterprise level). You have SUSE (now OpenSUSE for me) and Mandriva that I don't really like. (Don't tell me Kubuntu, I know it exists but I'm talking about enterprise level distros with enterprise level tools, think about RedHat...). It's kinda hard to be happy you see? And it's getting even worst with news like SUSE is about to drop KDE (probably not true anyway).

Anyway, that's my opinion. And don't think I'm a KDE fanboy because I'm not. KDE is problematic too but way less than Gnome. The number one problem is probably the fact it was made for blind people (sorry we are no more in the Windows 3.1/Windows 95 640x480 era folks) and when you want to use it high res with small icons it just behaves weirdly sometimes. Also, there should some Advanced settings tabs everywhere so it would please people that believe that KDE is too complicated. Finally, it really needs a better look (why is KDE4 taking forever? :) and they need to change some of the basic behaviors to match popular GUI ones (Windows,OSX). But anyway, I do believe that one day they will do it all because they are talented after all.

Oh, and don't tell me it's all about QT. There are way to get around this issue. SUSE got over it and Mandriva as well so I don't know why RedHat wouldn't be able to get over it as well. Licensing isn't really a problem with everything remain open source...

Reply Score: 3

RE: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:03 UTC in reply to "KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"And it's getting even worst with news like SUSE is about to drop KDE (probably not true anyway). "

SuSE will not drop KDE, but they will be gnome-centric. ie, they will certainly drop many k* applications off the CDs in favor of some gnome apps.

You *can't* have the same level of gnome and kde app on the same cds. Only debian can pretend this. (btw, they install gnome by default)
Fedora got 4 cds and they have nothing interesting for kde. SuSE will go through the same path ! gnome-centric, f--king crap.

You can count the number of *good* distro that's DM agnostic in just one hand.
Debian, Gentoo, Slackware. That's all.
There is no GOOD pro-kde distro. Mandrake is not pro-kde, even if in the birth of the distro they were just a redhat with kde. A very large number of Merdrake users are gnome lovers too.

Kubuntu and Ark Linux are jokes.

We seriously need a good, all-public distribution that support KDE ! gentoo and slackware are not for newbies and debian stable is going through the obsolete path. I've got some fear when i think of the kde fate. There's no good newbie distro that support it, that's really sad. SuSE were really good but novell will screw it in its next version.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:07 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
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> but they will be gnome-centric.

Wrong.

> they will certainly drop many k* applications off the CDs in favor of some gnome apps.

Wrong.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:24 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Only debian can pretend this. (btw, they install gnome by default)"


Wrong again, they install both, they just use gnome and gdm by default. But KDE is there.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 11:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
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"Wrong again, they install both, they just use gnome and gdm by default. But KDE is there."

stfu, the last time i tried a debian netinstall with sarge it installed me gnome but no kde by default. I saw some libs but not the true desktop.

Myself i don't really care of the default install. Just wipe that out, apt-get install x-window-system kde and it will rock.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: KDE > Gnome
by rx182 on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:11 UTC in reply to "KDE > Gnome"
rx182 Member since:
2005-07-08

There is no GOOD pro-kde distro.

I think exactly the same. It's sad to see the only near good KDE-centric distro (SUSE) going Gnome. The KDE integration in SUSE was near perfect! And I sadly don't believe in the OpenSUSE project... too much people hate Novell to participate...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
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> KDE-centric distro (SUSE) going Gnome.

Wrong!

Please people, if you don't have any constructive arguments then stop posting here. But please also stop spreading false statements and pure FUD.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
---

" Please people, if you don't have any constructive arguments then stop posting here. But please also stop spreading false statements and pure FUD."

The corp. editions of the novell linux will be gnome-centric, and i can't imagine they will really make a parallel opensuse edition that will be as KDE-centric as today. Waste of resources.
Novell is not about charity, but rentability. They will sell gnome based, not the actual opensuse. Opensuse ? they don't care.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> Novell is not about charity, but rentability. They will
> sell gnome based, not the actual opensuse. Opensuse ?
> they don't care.

Novell continues supporting KDE as well as GNOME as they did before. SUSE will default to KDE as it used to be but also offers GNOME as option.

Reply Score: 0

RE[6]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:30 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
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" Novell continues supporting KDE as well as GNOME as they did before. SUSE will default to KDE as it used to be but also offers GNOME as option."

I don't say they will *drop* kde, i'm saying they will be very less kde-centric.
There is five CDs in suse, and a VERY LARGE percentage of KDE applications.
There is four CDs in fedora, and a VERY large percentage of gtk/gnome applications.
You can't have the two, or your name is debian and you got 12 cds to sell.

Fedora support a KDE, but crippled, with very few kde apps in the distro.

Suse used to support a crippled, old gnome, with few gnome apps.

Now, Novell will be gnome-centric for their corp work. And, they don't do charity, so they won't maintain the same level of KDE-friendlyness as before on OpenSuSE.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:35 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: KDE > Gnome"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Novell will be gnome-centric for their corp work.

I already said that you are wrong. You agreed and still keep posting that shit.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[8]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:39 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: KDE > Gnome"
RE: KDE > Gnome
by defile on Wed 14th Dec 2005 10:14 UTC in reply to "KDE > Gnome"
defile Member since:
2005-07-09

"And I do believe that the WM in a Linux distribution is the number one factor of its success. Not only its success, but Linux success."

I'm curious as to what your metric for success is. According to this:

http://distrowatch.com/index.php?language=EN

Rank Distribution H.P.D* (Hits per day)
1 Ubuntu 2623
2 Mandriva 1686
3 SUSE 1611
4 Fedora 1082
5 MEPIS 937

I think we could safely say that Ubuntu tends to be Gnome centric. Granted these numbers don't tell the whole story for a couple of reasons. Distrowatch isn't the only source on the planet for finding a distribution (but I'd say it's a major one).

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=distrowatch

Results 1 - 10 of about 1,820,000 for distrowatch. (0.10 seconds)

People can also change the WM to whatever they want once it's installed.

You then go on to say:

"Finally, you really do have to pick up a KDE centric distro but they are rare these days (enterprise level)."

Maybe there are some valid reasons for that. I could give you mine, but it would be speculation on my part and might be completely off, or may give an impression of my personal bias that I don't wish to convey.

IMHO your entire comment came off as a tirade to me. What was your point? Gnome is the suXorz because it's too simplistic and less "Enterprise" distributions are supporting KDE? Gnome/GTK centric distributions make using KDE/QT have crappy integration? All of the above?

And finally:

"Oh, and don't tell me it's all about QT. There are way to get around this issue. SUSE got over it and Mandriva as well so I don't know why RedHat wouldn't be able to get over it as well. Licensing isn't really a problem with everything remain open source..."

SUSE has always been over it. Mandriva, back in the days when it was called Mandrake, was born due to Red Hat 5.0 only coming with Gnome for a DE (even when it was utter crap. Basically a panel and used FVWM for a Window Manager (its only redeeming feature IMHO)). Mandrake Linux's initial claim to fame was as a Red Hat compatible distribution that came with KDE by default (very nicely configured). In short, Mandrake/Mandriva has always supported KDE/QT to begin with. There was nothing for them to "get over" either.

Red Hat's commitment to Gnome has been because they have so much stake in it as far as money/developer time/promotion (which all equate to money, really). IIRC, until Red Hat 7.0 came out, if you wanted KDE on it, you had to either download third party RPM's (some were better quality than others), or compile it from scratch. Either way, it fell on the user to do post install.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: KDE > Gnome
by biteydog on Wed 14th Dec 2005 14:29 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE > Gnome"
biteydog Member since:
2005-10-06

mmm...

I make that Gnome - 3707, KDE - 4234

Seems about right.

On the subject of "commercial interests" I think Novell have shot themselves in the foot Gnomifying SuSE (in its Novell form) because they had to justify their prior purchase of whoever-it-was's desktop.

Reply Score: 1

Right, he is
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:35 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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... as usual. Who needs GNOME anyway ...

Reply Score: 0

linus' stonking hangover
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:39 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

i feel sooooooo sorry for poor linus. he's going to have one hell of a hangover and bad feeling when he wakes up in the morning and realises the total crap that he came out with the day before.
poor linus

Reply Score: 0

RE: linus' stonking hangover
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:43 UTC in reply to "linus' stonking hangover"
Anonymous Member since:
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> i feel sooooooo sorry for poor linus. he's going to
> have one hell of a hangover and bad feeling when he
> wakes up in the morning and realises the total crap
> that he came out with the day before. poor linus

Don't worry about him. He's doing fine and probably has tons of people protecting his back - and I am included here.

Reply Score: 0

this guy rocks :thumbsup:
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:41 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

i always thought he is a friggin stupid geek with no engineering in mind (look at the mess over at LKML and kernel). but now i started liking him.

kde sucks bad ass when compared to a vanilla OSX desktop, but GNOME? - man twm has more functionallity than gnome.

Reply Score: 1

RE: this guy rocks :thumbsup:
by eMagius on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:42 UTC in reply to "this guy rocks :thumbsup:"
eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

kde sucks bad ass when compared to a vanilla OSX desktop, but GNOME? - man twm has more functionallity than gnome.

twm has more functionality than KDE as well. I don't see the point of these bloated candy-coated, buggy, extraordinarly limiting interfaces for anyone who's not a beginner. IceWM, Fluxbox/Blackbox, fvwm, etc. (+ desktop icon manager of your choice if you're noob enough to rely on desktop icons) run circles around both KDE and Gnome in functionality, customization, stability, and performance.

Reply Score: 1

One thing
by Huehuecoyotyl on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:41 UTC
Huehuecoyotyl
Member since:
2005-11-09

about the Gnome project that bothers me is that it is increasingly the choice for corporations. I feel that the feature delete that Gnome is experiencing is the result of pressure from large corporations who are more concerned with keeping sheeplike, cubical bound workers on task. Providing features gives workers more flexibility and more chance that they will get off task. It is well know that Gnome is very heavily influenced by Novell $$$, and one of their best designers is a Novell employee. I prefer KDE because it has not yet succumbed to the agenda of big business. This is, of course, only my opinion based on personal observation.

Edited 2005-12-13 13:44

Reply Score: 1

FI
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:41 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Is this F.I. a new short term for f--king Idiots or I am missing something? The fact that I am using KDE and support it doesn't make me any better than GNOME users. I support the GNOME users in any mean, what they do, how they work, their community at all, although sometimes I use to make light jokes for things that seem funny in the work of GNOME with my close GNOME-using friends. But this is no joke anymore and seems to make another flame war between the users of the free software. It is like, I am not using GNU but rather Linux or I will throw Linux from GNU/Linux and use GNU only. Which is not possible.

We have right to choose, Linus is nothing more than a kernel creator and ego-centric hacker who thinks has the right to call the users of Linux based OSs to use this or that, however there are some blind "followers" of his idealism and will agree on this, as much as there are the hardcore GNOME users which will try to deny what the first ones would say and that is war. However if you are sane and think twice, you all stop here, even lock this article for replying cause it leads to haterd and that would lead to making differences in the core of the open source community which is the less thing we want now, don't we?

Aleksandar,
Macedonia

Reply Score: 0

About the PPD issue
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Whereas Linus may have been more polite, i understand what it says. For Desktop users Gnome is fine and you don't need to expose PPD options. BTW most inkjet printers ( for desktop usage ) doesn't provide PPD files.

However as a workstation in a profesionnal environment, you need the PPD options. Indeed in enterprise most of the time, you will be using PostScript Laser printers, and theses printers work out of the box because they understand PostScript, but also because they are exposing theirs options thanks to a common format : PPD ( http://www.linuxprinting.org/ppd-doc.html ). Thanks to the PPD files and theirs options you can :
- switch the printer to "low quality mode" to preserve toner if you're just going to printers hundreds papers that don't need high quality

- select the input slot/tray to use ( each tray may have different type of paper, different quality of paper, etc ... or you may want to use the bypass to put bristol paper which can't be put in the tray )

- select the output slot

- specify if you want to automatically staple the paper

- store the print in the printer Hard-disk and make the print happen later

- manually set the paper type because you know that the printer may incorrectly detect the paper

- select a different printer color profil in order to have sharper or brighter or whateveryouwant prints

- and so on ...

It means that you can use the advanced options for which you pay for a 5000$ ( or more ) printer !

Under Windows when you install theses kind of PostScript printers with a PPD file, in the print dialog, when you go in the properties, there's a new tab that allow you to easily change and modify theses advanced settings.

The same for OpenOffice ( which even provide it's own set of PPD files ) and for KDE in the driver settings tab : http://printing.kde.org/screenshots/
http://docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdebase/kdeprint/cups-and-ppd.html#id...

CUPS also allow to configure these settings ( system wide in this case ) during printer installation.
Printerdrake allow to do this also (system wide ) during printer installation :
http://doc.mandrivalinux.com/MandrakeLinux/101/en/Starter.html/prin...

This is not possible with Gnome, and not so far away for most Gnome application you couldn't even select the printer from a list. I'd even opened a bug report about this concerning galeon and epiphany some times ago. See :
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126304
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=120924
http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=141241

Just my 0.2€ ( and I'm french ;) )

Reply Score: 3

Just a simple solution
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

It has just a simple solution to the GNOME problem that doesn't make the system hard for starters: put an advanced tab on the systems configuration options!

It's hard to do that?

I really like GNOME but the lack of options really makes me feel like a bird in a jail!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Just a simple solution
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:52 UTC in reply to "Just a simple solution"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> It has just a simple solution to the GNOME problem that
> doesn't make the system hard for starters: put an
> advanced tab on the systems configuration options!
>
> It's hard to do that?

Yes it's that hard. Due to GNOME's ugly framework these things are not easy to implement and requires a disciplined change in many areas.

Reply Score: 0

WHAT GNOME DEVELOPERS THINK
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:56 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus Torvalds's view of GNOME is irrelevant. I can't believe anyone still listens to the guy when he goes off on one of his rants.

He lost all right to authority when he chose a commercial program made by a guy who doesn't understand free software to manage the kernel, and then backed him when he turned on a free software developer acting in good faith. Any technical credibility he had went out the window when he claimed that all specs are useless.

It's sickening to see people pandering to him and trying to calm him down just because he's Linus. There are easier ways to make our users rock than wasting time on this kind of shit.

http://blogs.gnome.org/view/bolsh/2005/12/13/1

Reply Score: 0

Linus got some right but a lot wrong
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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For the record I am a GNOME (and Mac) user. I would consider my self a tech user (ie I code, most used apps - vim, xterm).

I have no problem with GNOME dumbing down interfaces. I actually think this is a good thing. But why they hell cant they provide an "Advanced" button or Tab to let people (who want to) have more config options.

Too many times the GNOME group act like Nazis - example when they changed Nautilus behavior some time back (open folders in new windows) and did NOT provide a way for people to configure it back to the old design. yes I know it is possible to google and find out how to do this but why was the config option not in GNOME?

On the other hand calling designers FIs is not really going to make them listen to you. Linus's approach is not constructive - only good for a flame war

Reply Score: 0

priority user
by bluewing on Tue 13th Dec 2005 13:58 UTC
bluewing
Member since:
2005-12-13

Interesting set of comments. Most are more cogent and helpful than the original post being commented on, thanks. As an "elderly" user of the computer world, these type of extended commentaries are very useful to me. I pick up lots of small and ancillary things that I can then test to see what they do. Oh yeah, by "elderly" I should add that I'm 67, male, retired (small income, durnit), reasonably healthy, and haven't lost my mind yet (although posting this might belie that).

I have three computers set up, even though using a slow dial up connection, and they are all using different systems. The main one is Debian Sarge, Gnu/linux running the Gnome environment (did I get that right?). Another is a Windows 98 system on it's last legs and used to play the books-on-tape from Audible.com since I'm not enough of a geek to have figured out just yet how to get wine or something else to run the Audible material. Another, formerly a Windows XP system and now a happy test system, is used to run any kind of "distro" that catches my attention and I feel like paying the toll to have sent in. It has run quite a few systems, every thing from Symphony to SUSE and Puppy. Right now, it's a Debian Sarge Testing system to keep me from crashing the other Debian Sarge Stable (at least for the moment) system.

While that doesn't give me any credentials to discuss things on the level of Linus Torvald, I'm still the most important person in the Linux world. I'm the "end user" and no one is more important. If it's not used, it just dies, no matter how wonderful it is. Think about all the Linux software that was started, showed great promise, and simply faded. Some of that was potentially able to change the computer world but didn't get used. Us little people make it all work.

While I'm presently using Gnome I have used KDE extensively. Lots of good to both and some not so good on both. Yes, Gnome might suit the elderly, not so smart, casual computer user better than KDE. Good for them (not to say Gnome was written for AARP). KDE might be written for the more involved user or possibly those users with a few more cerebral cells remaining. Good for them. Isn't that kind of important? Lots of choices? I'd like to try even more environmental systems to see what fits the elderly but still curious human (well, even the elderly are still human, you know).

Linus Torvald's remarks indicate a focus on what he's doing and it is important to him. Doesn't especially help me, the end user, unless it improves the environment I find in my computer. I don't care much about speed (retired and on dial up, remember) but I do like to be able to mess with the system some. I think of it like a large sponge ball with lots of decorations pinned to the outside. I want to play with the decorations, not crawl inside the sponge ball that's holding up the decorations. Probably most end users feel the same.

All in all, the comments generated by Mr. Torvald's statements (if he did, indeed, say them) are more interesting and useful to me than the original Torvald statement. So, once again, thanks.

Reply Score: 2

When Linus does like c++(KDE/Qt)?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I just wonder.
He tried to code linux with c++, and he told us it sucks.
I guess, May be GUI implementation wih c++ is different.

pygtk, gcj(java-gnome), ruby(ruby-gnome), mono all is all and good for me.
I am using garnome-2.13.2 with LFS-style debian.

When i was a kid, i used to use kde. and i grown up.

Reply Score: 1

Worthless argument
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:04 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Here in the third world, which means most of the world, IceWM, Fluxbox, and Ion3 rules.

KDE and Gnome are products for the first world users with new computers that no matter how fast, can't keep up with the bloat of the software.

These entities should stop wasting our time and dedicate their valuable time to things that are important like wifi, lean/fast software, accounting and cad software.

Reply Score: 0

Wow.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:10 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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It's a sad day to be a Linux user - to realize that a pillar of the open source movement would be so rash to call people he disagrees with "f--king idiots." If only the Ubuntu code of conduct applied to the whole FLOSS community.
I'm reminded of a scene in "Just for Fun" (a book about Torvalds from a few years back) where Linus is visiting the author's house and notices the author's Mac. He sits down and complains about the display and tries to change it to his liking. He complains that he can't do what he wants on the Mac.
While I'm sure the PPD options are needed in some situations - where corporations have $10,000 printers, etc., for cases like mine (running a small business) GNOME provides much better for my needs. In GNOME, I plug it in and it shows up. I like this. And in GNOME, NetworkManager makes using my wireless card painless. And GNOME Volume Manager does the same for CDs, DVDs, floppies, iPods, etc.
By and large, I really like what the GNOME crew have been up to. There are CERTAINLY problems here and there, but they are have little to with mouse button assignment and the like. So, in conclusion, almighty and ever-righteous Linus Torvalds, drop the attitude, refrain from calling the people who have made Open Source accessible to me and my business "f--king idiots" and learn to treat the work of others with respect. Otherwise, I'm moving to a BSD.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Wow.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:19 UTC in reply to "Wow."
Anonymous Member since:
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"Otherwise, I'm moving to a BSD."

Do not think *bsd developpers are more angelic than Linus. Theo de Raadt is a really really good troller, hehe. I love that, even if i'm a linux user and he's saying linux sucks. That's part of the game. Enjoy it.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Mitarai on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:16 UTC
Mitarai
Member since:
2005-07-28

If Linus say so must be true.... NOT.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Wow.
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:25 UTC
MamiyaOtaru
Member since:
2005-11-11

"In GNOME, I plug it in and it shows up. ... And GNOME Volume Manager does the same for CDs, DVDs, floppies, iPods, etc"

KDE desktop -> right click, configure desktop -> behaviour -> device icons.

Or

Kicker right click -> add applet to panel -> storage media.

Insert CD/thumbdrive/whatever, see it appear on the desktop or in the kicker. Granted, setting it up for the desktop is a bit buried, but one only does it once ;) or the distro does it for him.

That is something that should be on by default I think, and Gnome is right to have it so. It is there in KDE though, and by default too with Kubuntu and others.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Wow.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Wow."
Anonymous Member since:
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yes, but it works in gnome. it never works properly in kde.

Reply Score: 0

About communication
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:35 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus is just avoiding the redundancy that many people love: saying "In my opinion" after every sentence.

It's fun to notice how relatively friendly the replies are. Who else could've posted the same message and lived? ;)

Reply Score: 0

aimed at computer neophytes
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:36 UTC
MamiyaOtaru
Member since:
2005-11-11

In an earlier comment I mentioned that Gnome was in fact aiming at (computer) idiots, that is to say potentially brilliant people who don't care to know how a computer works. Linus is right to say they do.

Just thought I'd back up that assertion:
"I totally understand where you're coming from. In fact, I spoke about this at length during my keynote at GUADEC earlier this year. *Putting GNOME on a long-term mission towards the 99.9% of users who don't care about computers* involved a massive cultural shift." - Jeff Waugh, from the discussion the article linked to (emphasis added)

Reply Score: 1

talkng stupid crap again
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:40 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Why doesthis stupid argument go on and on and on. People can choose their own WM or DE on *nix and that's the way it should be. Why must there always be people who want to tell others which one to use. Anyway everybody's got their own opinion on this. It's just one more of those stupid my Desktop's better than yours discussions where somebody wants to feel good about calling others stupid for not using theirs.
Didn't believe Linus to be that religious about his preferred software.

Sorry if my English isn't all correct. Not a native speaker.

Reply Score: 0

good on ya linus!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:43 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I like his brutal honesty and opinion. If only more ppl took that route. Drunk or not it reflects his true feelings which are what we need more of in this world. Now, if he tried messing w/ the Gnome project that would be another story.

Reply Score: 0

Linus is losing it...
by plainstyle on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:50 UTC
plainstyle
Member since:
2005-10-27

First the lawship against people who use his copyrighted name (Linux) then this shizoid article about interfaces..
The big advantage of Linux (can I still use the name Mr Linus??) is its openess and freedom of choice, even users of KDE benefit from the existance of Gnome and all other interfaces. Why's this anger Mr. Linus?

Reply Score: 1

Slight poor use of words...
by AmigaRobbo on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:57 UTC
AmigaRobbo
Member since:
2005-11-15

use of the word "Nazi" don't you think?

http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/Norway1.htm

Reply Score: 1

RE: Slight poor use of words...
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:40 UTC in reply to "Slight poor use of words..."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

No not really.

It's pretty common in many countries.

Using nazi or fascist in combination with other words are pretty common, at least in Denmark.

Interface Nazis would in Denmark probably be Interface Fascists but that's the only difference. Interface Communists could be another good term to show that somebody are abusing their position to force people to do something a specific way.

Reply Score: 1

Finally
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 14:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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It's good someone of real importance is showing that he isn't bowing down to what we find politically correct, for lack of better terms, in the computing world. The man prefers KDE, and he's not scared to tell you that, no matter how much you gasp or groan. I applaud Linus. Now, what on earth is the man talking about? KDE's a dog ;) Yeah, guess that's my opinion *grin*

Reply Score: 0

Well...
by Sphinx on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:00 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

When the man's right he's right but that's still no reason to suffer KDE.

Reply Score: 0

Linus is entitled to his opinion
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:00 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus is entitled to his opinions like everyone else. Why should he be "tip-toeing" around ? Steve Balmer has even crazier outbursts and he is even more influential then Linus

Reply Score: 0

Does Linux like its users?
by moleskine on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:07 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

This isn't a debate about Gnome or KDE, or KDE versus Gnome. Who cares. This is really about the degree to which Linux (or elements of it, like the desktop environments) listens to its users and tries to make them welcome.

It's fairly clear that elements of Linux do not listen to their users. Far from it. Gnome generally doesn't. They've set a clear course and implement "Do it our way or hit the highway." Not surprisingly, some folks don't like that attitude and I can't say I'm surprised.

Together with this, there are some crude and unattractive attitudes towards end-users. The talk about morons, bright users and hackers is a giveaway. Those who treat other users (i.e., other people) as idiots or "newbies" have no concept of service and no place serving up open source software. Mentally, they haven't yet grown up and left school.

There's more than a trace of this in Gnome (and a huge element of it in distros like Debian). No wonder people can be repulsed and become annoyed. Totally understandable. I'm glad Linus Torvalds has enough humanity and common sense to call out some puffed-up twits then he sees them.

Reply Score: 4

Null vs. Void
by Sphinx on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:10 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

This entire conversation will be rendered moot by the release of E17.

Reply Score: 3

More than 17 comments in 5 min!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:11 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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More than 17 comments in 5 min!!! Great troll. Even if it is true ;-)

Reply Score: 0

Same troll with Ubuntu and Kubuntu
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Same troll with Ubuntu and Kubuntu

Reply Score: 0

non issue
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This is pretty much a non-issue IMHO. Who cares what Linus Torvalds thinks about a DE and GUI and how they function? It's largely a matter of personal taste and what each individual user finds comfortable for what he/she does with a computer. Linus should avoid ex cathedra prnouncements on anything other than his kernel.

Reply Score: 0

RE: non issue
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:35 UTC in reply to "non issue"
Anonymous Member since:
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i agree. nobody should care one bit about what linux thinks about the UI. he is the kernel writer, not a designer. its a bit like the maker of the engine telling ferrari how to design the appearence of a car.

so, linus, why don't you just belt up and stick to what you know and shut the f up about what you don't.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: non issue
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:37 UTC in reply to "RE: non issue"
Anonymous Member since:
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> so, linus, why don't you just belt up and stick to what you know and shut the f up about what
> you don't.

I told the GNOME people to do the same unfortunately they still continue messing up GNOME Desktop.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: non issue
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:38 UTC in reply to "RE: non issue"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"i agree. nobody should care one bit about what linux thinks about the UI. he is the kernel writer, not a designer. its a bit like the maker of the engine telling ferrari how to design the appearence of a car."

Yeah, nobody should listen to potential users' opinions. At least not if they aren't interface designers.

Reply Score: 0

Way to go OSNews...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:14 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Way to go OSNews! Congratulations! You bought into the ranting of a troll hook, line and sinker, and trashed Torvald's reputation at the same time. Nice job!

I mean come on... Did you read some of the follow up posts? Cursing? all caps, illogical arguments, etc? This is clearly not really Linux posting. It is a troll using his name.

OSNews is getting to be worse than Slashdot when it comes to not verifying whether their info is accurate, and posting sensationalist headlines in order to boost read count and reply count.

What happened the OSNews that uses to be a legitimate news site? It sold out to the wanker wannabes, just like slashdot did.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Way to go OSNews...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:19 UTC in reply to "Way to go OSNews..."
Anonymous Member since:
---

> I mean come on... Did you read some of the follow up
> posts? Cursing? all caps, illogical arguments, etc?
> This is clearly not really Linux posting. It is a troll
> using his name.

I don't think so. Have you ever read the LKML?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Way to go OSNews...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Way to go OSNews..."
Anonymous Member since:
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If it really is Linus, then I must say it is truly sad that he has decided to join the "immature asshole zealot" camp of Linux hackers--the camp that derides and ridicules other people for having an opinion different than their own. They are a dark stain on the entire Linux community--especially when the founder himself decided to join them.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Way to go OSNews...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Way to go OSNews..."
Anonymous Member since:
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> "immature asshole zealot" camp of Linux hackers

Sorry I can not confirm this. Linus Torvalds was always very friendly and calm to me whenever I contacted him. Though I am one of the SCSI driver Maintainers (amongst two other buds). Linus was always correct and honest. All I can see in his reply was, that he finally set the butts of the prideful GNOME crowd who believes to be correct in all they do on the pot. And hey, they deserved it. There are no bigger egos and assholes than those from the GNOME camp.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Way to go OSNews...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Way to go OSNews..."
Anonymous Member since:
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> Sorry I can not confirm this.

I still don't think it is really him. I don't read the kernel lists, but when I have seen stuff from Linus before, I have not known him to resort to things like all caps cursing and that kind of crap.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Way to go OSNews...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:35 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Way to go OSNews..."
Anonymous Member since:
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All I can see in his reply was, that he finally set the butts of the prideful GNOME crowd who believes to be correct in all they do on the pot. And hey, they deserved it. There are no bigger egos and assholes than those from the GNOME camp.

I feel ANGST here.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Way to go OSNews...
by kennete on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:37 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Way to go OSNews..."
kennete Member since:
2005-10-29

This is true: "There are no bigger egos and assholes than those from the GNOME camp"

Reply Score: 1

KDE, GNOME
by @@__@@ on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:19 UTC
@@__@@
Member since:
2005-07-29

KDE and GNOME are both useless pieces of shit compared to Aqua. Wake up and smell the coffee!

Reply Score: 0

i think its him
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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just read the thread

- kozo

Reply Score: 0

Gnome is for powerusers
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:38 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I like Gnome's mentality quite a bit. For some reason, I never could find the need for a powerful windows environment for power users. Everything I need is in the command line. I just need my desktop environment to open Firefox, Thunderbird, OpenOffice, a few video-editing applications, and I need it to be able to print. I also want it to get out of my way as much as possible (not too flashy, not to clutterred, not too complex) so I can concentrate and think right. Otherwise, I don't care what it does, how it does it, or how it looks (as long as it isn't hideous like KDE ;) is.)

Reply Score: 1

so what?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:42 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

A lot of people seem to forget that Linus is human and has his likes and dislikes just like the rest of us. He likes KDE? Kudos and bouquets for him.

Just because the benevolent dictator likes KDE and not GNOME does not make GNOME users scum, nor does it make KDE users gods. Free software is about choice, and no desktop environment pundit, pro-KDE, pro-GNOME, or otherwise can change that fact.

Everyone who is getting so heated and passionate about this debate needs to have a cold one and relax. Hell, I love Linux while my wife hates it, yet we are able to be civil about it, even if she is a little Windows loving... (just kidding ;-) )

Why can't we learn a lesson from the Swiss? :-p

Reply Score: 0

RE: so what?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:45 UTC in reply to "so what?"
Anonymous Member since:
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Well, I don't much care what Linus thinks about Gnome vs. KDE either. But Linus really needs to either learn how to have civil dialog, or get someone to sanitize his posts for him. It's just very bad PR for someone in such a prominant position in the Linux community to be trashing others in his own community with that kind of venom spewing forth from the hole in his face, and and it reflects very poorly for him to resort to childish antics like all caps cursing and such.

Reply Score: 0

Linus is right.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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GNOME has serious problem in their UI design and lack of function. I can see GNOME somtimes is trying to learn from Mac OS X's simplicity. However, they don't really understand Mac OS X. As a former KDE user and now a Mac OS X user, I can see Mac OS X is the easiest to use, and also looks simple and elegant. Compared with GNOME, GNOME simply "looks easy" but using it is a pain. Mac OS X looks simple, but it has so many advanced tricks which can give you a lot more effiency. KDE may have too many options for you to choose. It is a problem but KDE is also easy to use. Their problem is that KDE needs to hide more options in ADVANCED bottons.

Reply Score: 0

Free World ...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Hey guys STOP trolling for nothing ! This is free world everybody can have his own opinion but yours !
You like Gnome use it, personnaly I use what can be used !! => KDE or Gnome ( I'm not going to be that sort oh hayatolah installing a DW just for console lines ;) ) depending on linux distro I'm on ... and on personnal computers fluxbox / fvwm / blackbox depending on time I have to customize and size of RAM ...

That's it !

I'm so sick of this egocentric world of linux where everybody tells you his own truth ... You got a problem ?
Answer 1 : try another soft / command line ...
Answer 2 ( after trying answer 1 ) : recompile !!

Wher is the "Keep It Simple Stupid" mind nowherdays ?!

Reply Score: 0

is NOT linus
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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i'm beginning to believe that it isn't linus at all. i bet its a raving ranting kde fanboy such as Ali impersonating him because it wouldn't surprise me at all.

Reply Score: 0

RE: is NOT linus
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:21 UTC in reply to "is NOT linus"
Anonymous Member since:
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No no no no no no no! This is Santa Claus! He got a little more than ticked at the whole "Who wrote Linux" ordeal. This is his payback ;)

Reply Score: 0

Finally, ...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 15:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus and I can agree on something!

Well, I don't agree for the same reason he does, but I do agree that KDE is champ. In my opinion, KDE is more technically advanced and generally a better looking desktop.

That being said, the only thing that holds KDE back from corporate adoption is the GPL. Let's say if I, as a corporation, want to use KDE in order to develop closed-source applications then I'd probably a) need to get a Qt license, or b) just GPL everything I develop. The problem is, I don't know for sure if option "a" protects me fully. I mean, I think other KDE libraries are GPL'd as well.

I also believe that KDE could use some cleaning up. Only to assure that the UI is consistent and hopefully more optimized so it can run faster. I'm surely not saying that they should cut out features, just make sure that the code is cleaned out to strip away things that aren't needed or not used. Anyway, that's just IMHO.

Reply Score: 0

Laughing at all that are crushed
by libray on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:08 UTC
libray
Member since:
2005-08-27

Linus Torvalds is not professional. This proves Linux to be a hobbysist OS. Anyone who cares whether he likes KDE or GNOME really should get off his ladder or pucker up and like it.

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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Go to top500.org, then tell us linux is just a hobbyist OS.

For a hobbyist os, it runs on some of the best supercomputers of the world. Truly hobbyist, we can all afford those supercomputers.
OS market isn't just about office people. An OS isn't anymore just for hobbyists when it's used for cricital tasks like that.

Reply Score: 0

since i am close
by Miichael on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:09 UTC
Miichael
Member since:
2005-10-14

and since i am only 15-20min from OSDL should i just go ask if its really him?

and a side no i didnt read all 260+ comments just the first few

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
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"Arguing by reductio-ad-absurdum is a known logical fallacy. Yet you do it."
http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/00...

Reductio ad absurdum is a perfectly valid method of argument, it's not a logical fallacy at all. He probably was mistaken because he saw it listed on a logical fallacy website. Those websites list it because it's actually an argument AGAINST a logical fallacy; it's a form of proof-by-contradiction.

You take the person's argument to its logical extreme and show that because of the absurdity of that extreme, that it must be wrong. The fact that the person's logic allows it to be taken to that extreme means that it's flawed. A proper logical argument will account for that and place limits that prevent extremes from being logically valid in their system.

-njyoder

Reply Score: 1

Anonymous Member since:
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> Reductio ad absurdum is a perfectly valid method
> of argument, it's not a logical fallacy at all.

Which is rather interesting isn't it? You'd think the real Linus Torvalds, computer science graduate, would know better. After all, logic classes are an essential part of a CSci curriculum. Again, it sounds like more evidence that this is probably not the real Linus. Resorting to big buzz words to try to intimidate others, and not even knowing what those buzz words really mean.

Reply Score: 0

SEJeff
Member since:
2005-11-05

When will the "leaders" of open source get it? For open source to take off, they need to stop bickering and start working together.

The more that leaders of various large influential OSS projects publicly belittle others, the more they are blown off as immature children. They get the, "Thats nice, go run along and play now." Much like when Eric Raymond publically posted the ridiculous response to the Microsoft job recruiter, this is yet another black eye to the Open Source Community as a whole.

In other news, it seems like the trend recently is for the KDE lovers to bash gnome to no end. Kurt P certainly ripped novell a new one with his opinion piece full of lies and deciet on linuxtoday:
http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2005110401826OPSSNV

If you don't like gnome, fine. If you like to spread fud, post on /. don't make the whole community look bad. Thanks

Reply Score: 0

I love Gnome, hate KDE.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I love Gnome, it is clear and it does what a GUI should do without the extra uneccessary eyecandy. I detest eyecandy and especially KDE eyecandy.

KDE is nothing but a WinXP GUI on steroids...

Gnome 4ever!!!

Reply Score: 0

RE: I love Gnome, hate KDE.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:41 UTC in reply to "I love Gnome, hate KDE."
Anonymous Member since:
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Gnome, by it's very nature as a Graphic User Interface, is loaded with eye candy. All GUIs have eye candy...get over it. There's room on this planet for KDE (my personal fave), Gnome, XFCE, Fluxbox, and all the others.

Reply Score: 0

Moron
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:19 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Torvalds is an idiot.

Reply Score: 0

Quoting
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:26 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Quoting Nat Friedman replying to Linus:

"We need Linux to grow up if we're going to make Linux on the desktop a success. Let's have a grown-up discussion. If I worked for Microsoft I'd be very happy to see you throwing pejoratives around like that on this list."

LMMFAO..... The folks at Microsoft probably sent Linus flowers and candy, with a note thanking him for his support.

In future news:
Torvalds joins Microsoft Research and Development.

Reply Score: 1

Timerever
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is probably the biggest KDE-Gnome flamewar ever!

Thom I humbly ask you pretty please, save this flamewar in a very secure server with some paper copies so that future generations of archilogists can see how in the year 2005 B.C.S. (Before Common Sense) the fanboyism reached the Ultima© Flama®!

YeS, Quintuple, hypEr n0va, Alucard, Shazam, Tripla, Songoku, ZenPowerRangerPlusMegaTransform.
YYYYYEEEEESSSSSS!11!11!!!twentythree!!11!11!!!!!

(Note to you my friend future archologist, back in this era we were poor but very happy, remember this and apply it to your own life in you admirable new world)

Reply Score: 1

msundman Member since:
2005-07-06

> the year 2005 B.C.S. (Before Common Sense)

Are you an oracle, or why do you think common sense will be common (pun intended) in the year 4010?

Reply Score: 1

Timerever Member since:
2005-07-06

> Are you an oracle, or why do you think common sense will be common (pun intended) in the year 4010?

'Cause I said so. X-D Haven't you read my nick? I'm the TimeRever[ter] I'm the very essence of time. Then again maybe not... BLAME THE CATS!!! THEY DID IT TO MY BRAIN!

*Runs around criyng

Reply Score: 1

Am I idiot? I a GNOMEr, yes, I'm...
by edcrypt on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:35 UTC
edcrypt
Member since:
2005-07-07

I like an interface that don't stay in my way with lots of silly preferences, just like many MacOsXers and BeOSers. I'm an idiot, so?

Reply Score: 1

for once
by redbarchetta on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:43 UTC
redbarchetta
Member since:
2005-11-14

I have to agree with Torvalds on something. KDE is without a doubt a better experience than GNOME. Not that GNOME is really bad, I just find myself always going back to KDE. It just seems more polished, seems to run faster, and just has more features that I like.

Reply Score: 1

WTFC ?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:47 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Really, who cares what he likes KDE orver GNOME? Isnt there a Bajillion window managers to choose from?

Reply Score: 0

I prefer Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 16:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I might as well throw my 2 cents in.

I prefer Gnome, mostly because it has been more stable than KDE in my experience. KDE seems much more crash prone than Gnome does, with various parts of the KDE core components generating the crash dialog on a way too regular basis.

Reply Score: 0

Bah
by ValiantSoul on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:05 UTC
ValiantSoul
Member since:
2005-07-20

KDE vs GNOME - they are both being actively developed and made suitable for at least the people making them so good to them both.

I use fluxbox (on the rare occasion I actually fire up X) and dislike both KDE and GNOME but I'm not going to go and bitch to people about what I don't like and tell them to use fluxbox. Likewise I use FreeBSD instead of linux but I don't go and tell everyone to use that and not linux.

Sorry Linus but truly bad idea saying something like that, your reputation grows worse by all of your bad moves not better. Just because you wrote the first linux kernel and work on it with a small group of people doesn't mean you can be an ass to hardworking people like those working on GNOME.

Reply Score: 1

Almost 300 posts about nothing?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus is a UNIX kernel hacker.
GNOME is for average desktop users.
Linus finds GNOME doesn't suit him.
Suprise!
This is non-news and there is nothing to discuss.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> Linus is a UNIX kernel hacker.
> GNOME is for average desktop users.
> Linus finds GNOME doesn't suit him.

And yet KDE does? I've always found KDE to be much "less technically demanding" than Gnome. So that logic doesn't work very well. Gnome is more for power users than KDE is. Gnome is basically infinately customizable. But customizing it required digging around at a fairly low level. KDE isn't nearly as customizable. But the customizations you can do are easier because they can all bew done from the KDE control panels.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> Gnome is more for power users than KDE is.

Strange that every power user I know finds GNOME scary (including me and Linus and many others). So what ? Either GNOME is for the idiot users amongst us or for the power users. Your "power users" sentence totally contradicts to the "ordinary users" stuff that GNOME aims to target.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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> Strange that every power user I know finds GNOME
> scary (including me and Linus and many others).

I don't use either Gnome or KDE is my regular desktop. Typically I use fluxbox. Since mostly I just want the ability to manage multiple windows, and have the window manager stay out of my way.

When it comes to toolkit issues though, Gtk is a vastly superior toolkit to Qt. And yes, I have programmed in both. Qt has some very bad design flaws. And Gtk is the only one of the major GUI toolkits for Windows that actually takes advantage of standard C++... Hey Qt people? Every heard of something called "namespaces"? Maybe you should look at gtkmm and learn what they are, and how they are your friend... Oh, and while you are at it, adding proprietary extensions to C++ that requires a special pre-processor is BAD.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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For XWindows that should have said. The X didn't register.

Reply Score: 0

dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

I am not sure you are talking about the same KDE as everyone else. I use both desktops on a regular basis and of the two KDE is the one that can be customised a lot more.

Both are good DEs, but GNOME seems to have gone downhill since the 2.x release. GNOME 1.4 was one of the best ever GNOME releases and I wish GNOME had continued in that tradition.

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yeah Gnome 1.x was nice.

Gnome2 is slightly annoying, and I didn't like the changes from 2.6 to 2.8 - definitely going too far, as Jeff Waugh admitted.

Reply Score: 1

Got that right
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:08 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

The Gnome desk top has gone down hill since 1.4. Everything that was cool in 1.4 in the way of customizing your environment has gone away. It's soo dumbed down that it's annoying to use. Windows is more intuitive now. I've switched to KDE and haven't looked back. Gnome 1.4 was better, but against gnome 2.x, KDE rules.

Reply Score: 0

Linus tells the truth...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus told the same truth that many have been speaking since GNOME 2.0 came out. Forcing spatial file management on users, as well as reversed save/open dialogs does not improve usability. Hiding the ability to have the window manager act left handed (with close/maximize/minimize buttons on the left of the window manager rather than the right) does not improve usability. Horrid file dialogs do not improve usability. All Linus did was reiterate facts already well known and discussed.

Reply Score: 0

gnome nazis
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:11 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus sounds more like a nazi himself.

Reply Score: 0

Yiiiirrr!!!
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:12 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

Good to see a developer doing something about it.

Personally I prefer Gnome, but there's no doubt it needs get back on track.

Since 2.6 It's been going extremely downhill.

Torvalds aren't saying it the nice way - but then, the nice way is never effective.

The gnome simplicity has gone WAY to far. Not that I want the stupid complexity of KDE with absolutely no consistency in UI and mediocre drag'n'drop.

It's time for K-nome to arrive.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:14 UTC in reply to "Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
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> Not that I want the stupid complexity of KDE with absolutely no consistency in UI.

Excuse me what ? KDE's UI is by far more consistent than what GNOME offers that's due to their object oriented approach.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
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Oh for crying out loud, how is an "object oriented approach" preventing me from creating inconsistent interfaces?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
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Not only that, but he made it clear he has never used Gtk. Because Gtk *is* object oriented. (Hint to the original poster: It is possible to do object oriented programming in C).

Oh, and if he doesn't want to... There is always gtkmm, which is vastly more object oriented than Qt is. It actually takes advantage of C++ features and doesn't resort to old C tricks like macros that break object orientation in evil ways.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> Not only that, but he made it clear he has never used
> Gtk. Because Gtk *is* object oriented. (Hint to the
> original poster: It is possible to do object oriented
> programming in C).

I contributed to GNOME for some years but then, GTK's great OO approach doesnt help if half of the people use the OO approach and others not. Some people simply call function calls rather than referencing some objects. What benefits does GTK's great OO approach habe if it's used half by apps, if people still keep programming the good old 'calling functions' and 'calling functions to alter attributes' way, what benefits does it have that many bindings or other things don't implement these things nicely enough ?

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot34ji.jpg

Looking at this screenshot gives a great example that the so called great OO approach has miserabely failed. There is not even one common Toolbar object that people can use - and use in an unaltered way so they look consistent.

Show me one KDE application that has a Toolbar which looks differently than other Toolbars used in KDE.

Only one!

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
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"There is not even one common Toolbar object that people can use - and use in an unaltered way so they look consistent. "

First of all, this has absolutely nothing to do with object oriented programming.

Second, yes there is. There is a complete set of stock icons that come with Gtk, and if you change the theme, those stock icons will be changed too. If developers use those stock icons, their apps will pick up the Gtk theme.

Of course, you can't force developers to use stock icons in Gtk. But you can't force them to in Qt either. In otherwords, there is no toolkit that can stop developers from designing back UIs.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[6]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:57 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
RE[7]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:01 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

The toolbars in different gnome applications have similar behaviour but different content.

Your statements are false.

The look of toolbars has nothing to do with object oriented programming.

The look of toolbars in gnome are very similar across applications, though the contents differ. But behaviour is similar in all of them.

You don't use Gnome apparently.

Take a look at gedit, gnumeric, openoffice, thunderbird, firefox, mozilla, epiphany, bluefish and you'll see that these applications with some even being non-gnomic actually looks and behaves the same way.

The content is different, but basic behaviour is identical.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:23 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

I got a better idea. Learn how to spell and talk properly, and make you will start looking like you have a clue what you are talking about. It's clear you don't.

And in case you didn't notice, you can do inheritance in Gtk. But I bet you are just too lame to actually have taken the time to figure out how.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:57 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Different applications have of course different toolbars.

The gnome toolbars look similar, yet are different because the applications are solving different tasks.

Would I expect a text editor to have the same buttons on the toolbar as a file windows or a browser window or a spreadsheet application?

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.. I would expect a text editor to have icons relevant to text editing, and a spreadsheet window to have icons relevant to spreadsheet jobs.

The pictures at imageshack shows just how Gnome apps are fitting to their task. And it looks pretty much the same way or all other platforms.

There is no platform, not even KDE where a mail application has a toolbar which is completely common to the one in a spreadsheet.

Different contents in the toolbar yes. A common class for toolbar yes. Gnome has both. As has KDE, Mac, Windows, Amiga OS, MorphOS, Haiku-OS, Zeta, BeOS, SkyOS and etc.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:58 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
---

No, you are wrong too, please read:

http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=12956&comment_id=72283

To get some enlightenment.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[7]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:48 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
RE[2]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Yiiiirrr!!!"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Whatever..

KDE is too inconsistent. Gnome2 is too simplified.

A blend of KDE, Gnome2 and Gnome1 would be better.

An object oriented approach is always good in regard to GUI. It might not be good in regard to very small CLI programs, but for a GUI OOP is the right choice.

The Gnome simplification has gone too far, but the mess in KDE isn't the option.

Reply Score: 1

I just have to post!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:22 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I respect him for his work and what he has done. But this doesn't really matter whatever his preference. Or that I should use Flux Box, XFCE, KDE or Gnome over another! Or hell whats that's one that mimics windows really well.

I prefer GNOME because it's easy to me and I have been using it forever. My only KDE expierence is Kanotix and I find it harder to customize when the default is that big'ol'bar at the bottom.

Linus prefers KDE...great! Glad to know he likes something. Can we all put our efforts into making all software free and awsome and what not now? Then argue which one is better D:

Glad I am at osnews posting and not /. I mean jeese they are at 687 comments in that stupid BBS format making it impossible to read.

Reply Score: 0

v fucker
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:23 UTC
RE: fucker
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:33 UTC in reply to "fucker"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

It can also be overdone.

A windows should show exactly what you need. No more, no less.

KDE shows too much, Gnome shows too little.

In general Gnome misses the "Advanced" option.

Reply Score: 1

v Xfce with icons on the desktop
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:28 UTC
Great ! =)
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

The wise choose wisely.

Gnome has:
* A freakin' slow window manager called Metacity, and it's a huge pile of ##.
* A toolkit that is seriously suffering from performance problems, and has for too long.
* A terminal application that is so slow it's almost unusable.
* Exaggerated simplicity everywhere.
* Crap like gconf.
* A tightening relationship to diseases like Mono/C#.

Steer clear, like Linus does.

Reply Score: 0

few comments.
by smileaf on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:33 UTC
smileaf
Member since:
2005-08-16

Linus is a normal guy. a funny one at that. I've not read many of his emails but of the few things I have I always chuckle.

The funny things about his comments tho are not that they are off. Most if not all _are_ dead on.

If you can't do something *is* that usability? There are numerous ways of defining usability. I personally use the approach, Can I use it for what I need to? Can I do what I need to do easily?

Gnome takes this backwards it appears.
"Can They do what they need to do easily?" and forget about "Can they do what they need to do?"

Sure KDE has TONS of options that I've never touched and never will. I never thought I'd change the window buttons. But I have. I dropped the maximize button and swapped the locations of the close and minimize buttons. Why? for _me_ it's more usable and safe. When you got a mouse that likes to go out of control sometimes right when your going to click a button and you end up closing out the program. That's not good.

Should KDE Clean up these dialogs by removing the ones no one uses? I'd prefer they didn't.
Would a normal user want to do what I did to my title bar buttons? No.. if they removed this I'd be rather upset.

Lets take a different look at things.
Can you go to far if you:
A) Strive for Simplicity
B) Strive for Features

First lets make something clear. How often are you going to be configuring something? Not very often. So are lots of configuration options bad? Well looking in yet another way. When your actually using the WM, are you wishing you could change something so you can work faster and more efficiently? If so then no configuration options are most definitely _not_ bad.
When I work in windows I really wish you could use the scroll button on mice like I can in linux.
click it to paste. Select windows without bringing them forward. change windows and various other things.
This is actually how I get more users interested in linux. we got on the topic and I say I can't work well in windows and I start telling them how I work faster. All of these are things I do every do on an hourly basis. Hourly basis operations like these are _far_ more important to me any anyone I've ever talked to. than any configuration dialog. But I could not have it my way.. and you, yours if not for these options in a configuration dialog.

Reply Score: 4

The beauty of Linux
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:36 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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The beauty of Linux and Open Source solutions is general is; if you don't like the way it works you have choice in what other options are available. Just because you think a desktop is too simple doesn't mean someone else has to think your way. It works the same with development politics and teams. If you don't like the way a group is working you don't have to use there software.

Reply Score: 0

RE: The beauty of Linux
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:38 UTC in reply to "The beauty of Linux"
Anonymous Member since:
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> The beauty of Linux and Open Source solutions is
> general is; if you don't like the way it works you
> have choice in what other options are available.

This sentence is NOT VALID anymore. There is no choice anymore. It was a few years back but nowadays the shares have been divided between KDE, GNOME, XFCE.

Reply Score: 0

you poor assholes
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:38 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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All you GNOME lovers will change your mind when kde4 comes out.

What gnome(3?) has to offer against kde4?

Reply Score: 0

Opinions...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:42 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Why are people reacting to this? Linus is a human and has his personal opinions. No story here.

Bob

Reply Score: 0

kde/gnome both good
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 17:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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...in their own way

I find kde too bright and flashy, and gnome too grey, but the icons are nicer. I don't like spatial nautilus, but its easy to change to 'browser' mode. What else? Kde has a nicer clock and k3b, but, you know.. big deal. I no sooner start using one but then begin missing the other. Its a lot like trying to find the perfect distro; many of us, me especially, are too restless. When will it ever end?

I envy Linus; he's found his perfect DE.

Reply Score: 0

Funny
by segedunum on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:11 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

This is one of the funniest threads I've seen, and Linus only made three posts!

Maybe Linus thinks this whole Portland dog's breakfast thing is as distasteful as I think it is. Just cut to the chase, let's get something that works and let's stop arsing about with stuff that isn't possible. You then got all the politically correct posts after Linus' saying 'let's work together!' etc. etc.

Reply Score: 1

So easy is nazi and dumb ?
by Pasha on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:14 UTC
Pasha
Member since:
2005-07-06

I prefer Gnome. I'm not a nazi. I am offended by this dialogue. As a soon to switch Mac user, I have to say that similarities are there between Mac OS X and GNOME. Easy, clean interace, but Mac users are not dumb people, nor are GNOME users!
I would suggest mr Linus to be on prozac for some weeks.
Maybe he would be less offensive, while retaining his own preferences like he has the right to do, as do I and everybody.

Reply Score: 1

RE: So easy is nazi and dumb ?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:17 UTC in reply to "So easy is nazi and dumb ? "
Anonymous Member since:
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> I have to say that similarities are there between Mac OS X and GNOME.

There are absolutely NO and I mean NO similarities between OSX and GNOME.

Reply Score: 1

osx and gnome similarities
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:20 UTC in reply to "RE: So easy is nazi and dumb ? "
Anonymous Member since:
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Both allow you to change the desk background by right clicking on a picture in a web browser.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: So easy is nazi and dumb ?
by Pasha on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE: So easy is nazi and dumb ? "
Pasha Member since:
2005-07-06

You're right : OSX is an OS while Gnome is a GUI.
I was referring to the 'ease of use' when compared to the cluttered KDE interface. OS X is clean and so is GNOME. That's what I was talking about. OS X Tiger 'Dashboards' resemble GNOME desklets. They sure work different and are different, but as a user experience they look both clean and easy, and similar.

Reply Score: 1

RE: So easy is nazi and dumb ?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:28 UTC in reply to "So easy is nazi and dumb ? "
Anonymous Member since:
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Dude, either you can't read, or you're some kind of ambulance-chaser looking for something to get offended by.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: So easy is nazi and dumb ?
by Pasha on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:54 UTC in reply to "RE: So easy is nazi and dumb ? "
Pasha Member since:
2005-07-06

No. I can read. Maybe you're not so well educated :

This is what Linus said :

This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use KDE.

Linus

Well i do not feel an idiot because I use GNOME or because I prefer to use a GUI instead of a terminal.
I have the right to feel offended by these words, and you should better connect your brain before speak.

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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No. I can read. Maybe you're not so well educated :

No you can't, and your usage of the english language shows that you are probably less educated than you think. (English isn't my native language either.)

This is what Linus said :

This "users are idiots, and are confused by functionality" mentality of
Gnome is a disease. If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will
use it. I don't use Gnome, because in striving to be simple, it has long
since reached the point where it simply doesn't do what I need it to do.

Please, just tell people to use KDE.


Well i do not feel an idiot because I use GNOME or because I prefer to use a GUI instead of a terminal.
I have the right to feel offended by these words, and you should better connect your brain before speak.


Ok, smartass. Where in the quote above does he state that those who use gnome are idiots? Nowhere. He speaks of a mindset among the gnome-developers, that makes them treat their users as idiots. A HUGE difference. You need to brush up on your reading comprehension before you run around and get offended by everything. In fact, I find you are quite insulting yourself, since you can't be arsed to find out what someone actually is saying before you jump them. Not that I expected a zealot do something that complicated, but it would have been nice to be proven wrong on that one.

Reply Score: 1

Torvalds is my idol...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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... for being such a good troll ;)
The flamefest is so quick that there's no time to mod posts down ;)
Torvalds is the Troll Chieftain!

Reply Score: 0

I don't get it
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Who cares what linus thinks about desktop environments? He's a kernel hacker, does it make him an expert of desktop environments? Of course not. What if he said to drink coke instead of pepsi? Would you do it?

I use gnome and won't switch back to KDE because linus said so. It's a personnal thing.

Are all the other DE/WM complete crap? No they aren't, they simply have different supporters and contributers. The more the better if you ask me. They can steal ideas from each other and they all benefit.

Reply Score: 0

Kablam!
by leos on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:24 UTC
leos
Member since:
2005-09-21

comment number 340! Can we get it to 400? I think we might! C'mon team, go go go!

Reply Score: 1

Eh
by The Lone OSer on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:33 UTC
The Lone OSer
Member since:
2005-07-11

Firstly, If Linus doesn't care about Gnome that much, WHY is he posting on the mail.GNOME.org forums! *rolls eyes*
Secondly, I would be 100% happier putting somone on my Solaris machine running JDE (Gnome based) then I would running KDE... Sure, KDE is VERY NICE, but it is the other side of the coin.. too many options.
Mr Torvalds, some of us really LIKE Gnome, sorry ;)

Reply Score: 1

OSnews
by SlackerJack on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:38 UTC
SlackerJack
Member since:
2005-11-12

Oh right, so this is why OSnews went down with the "Dang" message. Without reading 345 posts I KNOW what it's about, so thats why i'm not doing to.

To claim what Linus always says is the holy grail is stupid, if he like KDE more good for him. Mocking your own OS like that just because he dont like GNOME is childish. Go back to coding the kernel Linus.

Reply Score: 1

RE: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:43 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I do agree his opinion about the file dialog though

"Same with the file dialog. Apparently it's too "confusing" to let users
just type the filename. So gnome forces you to do the icon selection
thing, never mind that it's a million times slower.

"
Direct link for this comment Registered users can bookmark useful comments


I don't, just do ctrl-L and you can type whatever you like. So Linus => RTFM!

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: File Manager
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:59 UTC in reply to "RE: File Manager"
Anonymous Member since:
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> I don't, just do ctrl-L and you can type whatever you
> like. So Linus => RTFM!

GNOME is simple, you shouldn't have to RTFM to find out how to do these kind of things.

To GNOME developers KISS is "Keep It Simple and Stupid".

Reply Score: 0

. well - well
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:52 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I find grossly ignorant the words of Linus. doubtless lacked wisdom and discernment for utter you have phrases

Reply Score: 0

Are you sure this is real?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:55 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This looks like a fake quote.

Both KDE and Gnome are good and I use them both.

So what's the big deal?

Who knows.

Reply Score: 0

metacity is crippled!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:56 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I always hack metacity to not raise the window when it
get's the focus (Talk about confusing for it's users!). This is becoming a pain and I don't know if I will put up with it. I might have to switch to KDE.

Kees.

Reply Score: 0

The Point?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:58 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I am not going to read through all 360+ posts right now, but i just wanted to mention that i thought this was the point? To get the so-called "Idiots" from the windows world to switch to linux? That is why the race to hide complexity and make the interface less intimadating, its for users who were use to windows.

To me its an obvious choice, if you like simple and clean, use Gnome. If you dont want to be scared with features and the underpinings of your OS/GUI use Gnome.

For everyone else, there is KDE and a host of other windows managers such as AfterStep(my favorite) GnuStep, enlightnment. And for true minimalists there is black box (and the like)


I see no problem with Linus' statement. He is just stating the obvious.

Reply Score: 0

RE[10]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Morty on Tue 13th Dec 2005 18:59 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

since you almost never want to change the default behavior.

And it only shows you are totally clueless of what he is saying. If you look at the example given it shows three different default behaviors. A proper class and inheritance structure would not allow this.

I am 100% free to create a god-awful mess of a toolbar if I want to. I can use non-standard icons, place buttons in non-standard locations, etc.

And it don't have anything at all to do with this case, they would still look and behave like the other toolbars as they use the same toolbar class. The look and placement of the icons are irrelevant.

Reply Score: 1

RE[11]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:07 UTC in reply to "RE[10]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
Anonymous Member since:
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"And it only shows you are totally clueless of what he is saying. If you look at the example given it shows three different default behaviors. A proper class and inheritance structure would not allow this."

Bullshit. You don't know what a proper class and inheritance structure is do you? A decent class is loosely coupled. Again, "program to interfaces. Not implementations" Programming to concrete implementations is bad. It results in an explosion of specialized derived classes. That is BAD. If the default toolbar doesn't work for me, I should NOT have to subclass it to change the icons, or change the order. In fact, the buttons themselves have NO BUSINESS being part of the toolbar class. That results in a highly specialized class that is not reusable.

Repeat the mantra: Inheritance is bad. Composition is good. A tightly coupled class structure like you suggest means that things can't be built through composition. And that leaves you with having to subclass. And results in an explosion of highly specialized derived classes.

Please read a good book on design patterns.

Reply Score: 0

RE[11]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:50 UTC in reply to "RE[10]: Yiiiirrr!!!"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Of course a proper class and inheritance structure would allow such a thing. That's the whole f***ing idea of class and inheritance.

Reply Score: 1

Xfce is Gnome done right
by JeffS on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:00 UTC
JeffS
Member since:
2005-07-12

I did a Debian net install a few times, and I was amazed at how many Gnome programs and libraries had to be downloaded, as opposed to the KDE programs and libraries. The Gnome stuff took about 40 minutes to download, and the KDE stuff took about 10 minutes. Yet, KDE is more powerful and configurable and more feature rich than Gnome, by an order of magnitude. Plus, KDE manages to be faster and less memory intensive than Gnome. Go figure.

This is all an indication of library dependency labirynth and bad internal design on Gnome's part. You'd think that with feature deprication, and a nice, intuitive, simplistic interface, the guts of Gnome would be simple and light. But it's not. It's apparently a bloated, complex mess.

Then there is Xfce, which is light and fast and still feature rich, and uses GTK and a clean, simple interface. I look at Xfce as Gnome done right. It's everything that Gnome should be. It has the best features that Gnome has (namely the simple, clean, easy to use interface guidlines), but lacks Gnomes weaknesses (namely structural bloat, key features depricated, resource hog, lack of key configurablity).

Reply Score: 2

Finally, some rational discussion ?
by elsewhere on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:04 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

Maybe Linus' post was flamebait, but at least it led to intelligent discussion in response on the mailing list. I have never seen a forum where one can bring up the subject Gnome's "feature vs usability" design intent without being flamed to high hell by self-righteous Gnome users. I'm not singling Gnome out for this, since certainly the KDE camp has more than it's share of equally self-righteous zealots, but it is nice to see a rational discussion follow because that is probably the single biggest thing that irks me about Gnome.

Frankly, I share Linus' opinion, I've always felt that Gnome's superior usability was simply a shield to hide behind when it came to functionality or configurability. Is KDE perfect? No, and KDE has even acknowledged this as being a topic of focus for 4.0, but having said that, I'd much rather dig through an options list to find the one I want rather than find that the option didn't exist at all.

Yet I'll admit that's strictly my personal preference. Do I think lesser of people that don't share that opinion? Of course not, I firmly believe both DE's are integral to the success of desktop linux because they are so different. I'm even willing to admit that because of my background (cut my teeth using a CP/M-based Osborne as my first computer before climbing the ladder from PC-DOS 1.0 through Windows XP with all of the incarnations in between), I probably take things for granted that not everyone else would. I am unable to put myself in the position of less-experienced computer users, something I realize every time I help someone my office with a Windows or system problem, so I'm willing to realize that maybe my experience, my perception and my choice of what works best isn't necessarily applicable to everyone.

Personally I can't get comfortable with Gnome, I feel like it's looking down on me when I try to do things a certain way, I can almost imagine it tsk-tsk'ing in the background. And it seems to me that as many people defend Gnome's usability, there are a considerable amount that question or dislike it. That makes it a valid topic for intelligent discussion (how can you boast about a desktop for "users" if you invalidate other user's opinions that differ from your own?). Yet all I ever see if needless flaming ("KDE sucks!" "KDE fanbois get a life!" "Gnome rulz, you're 2 stupid!"), which accomplishes little, any time the subject it brought up and does nothing to help sway opinion or allow others to consider alternative points of view.

(And again, let me stress, I'm not taking the high-road and saying KDE doesn't have it's share of flamers, because it certainly does and I find it equally counter-productive)

Both desktops complement each other, in that they address things in ways that are almost diametrically opposed. To me that means users don't have to compromise, chances are you'll prefer one or the other, you don't have to sacrifice. If Gnome suddenly became the only desktop choice on Linux, I'd probably re-evalutate whether Linux was acceptable to me as a day-to-day platform. But by the same token, if KDE dominated and was the only choice, I'm not sure I'd like that either because invariably the product would suffer and there would likely be little incentive to truly innovate or improve (as always seems to happen). I much prefer having Gnome as an available option, even if I may not be using it today.

The "desktop war" can be constructive if both sides can accept differences of opinion, look at areas where they may be weak and strive to improve, and continue building upon the co-operative efforts to ensure interoperability (which, really, is the most important thing).

But useless flamewars just force both sides to hide behind their own rhetoric and cliches, attacking the other side while ignoring their own issues. No progress can be made that way.

For crying out loud, this isn't Highlander. There can be, and should be, more than only one. So good on you Linus for at least spurring intelligent debate, even if that wasn't your intent.

Reply Score: 3

Linus ?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:05 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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mmmm Linus ? Torvalds ? who is Linus Torvalds ? i think the name is familiar, yes, yes, mmmm ......

Reply Score: 0

RE: I do not get it...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I have tried KDE at different times but have always backed down since I never liked the look and feel of it, I never liked any theme enough to hide away all the other things that make me uncomfortable with KDE.

True so true.. :-)

Reply Score: 0

v Who Cares?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:14 UTC
RE: Who Cares?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:27 UTC in reply to "Who Cares?"
Anonymous Member since:
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"So if you ask me, Linus and the rest of you are polishing the brass on the Titanic by flaming one another over which window manager is better. You'd be better served by asking yourself "How do we make it so that the AVERAGE person on the street will come to appreciate Linux the same way they have come to embrace Windows?" "

I f--king could care LESS if Joe Sixpack use or not linux. Linux is about freedom, not taking over the computer world.
Joe got his Apple Mac. I use my linux. Who cares ?
I f--k the guys who needs a linux that do all the things automatically for your little ass. You want a gay os, use OSX and don't come f--king with us.

Free software is also freedom of choice. Not crappy GUI that tries to think for you.
The reason the hurd is alive is about the freedom of the user, to give more freedom to users with a new architecture towards a more user land based system that don't need kernel mode for all things. Why we should, FFS, destroy the liberty the free software gives us, to make a Joe Sixpack standard GUI like MacOSX ? if you are not happy with linux, just use windows or mac osx. Or build your new unix system like apple did. You already got some choice, why bother with linux if you are not happy with it ?

Reply Score: 0

well, lets hope they get more hippie
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:17 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I aggree that the gnome Interface Design is to conservative, why do OS Devs always reject USer wishes and ideas?
Apple didnt and have big success with aqua(give me 1000€ and i join in), just copy any GUI toy you can and you get an wider userbase.
But like the KDE guys said, we dont need any/our users to let KDE exist.

I use Gnome, mainly because the QT rendering sucks and hurts my eyes

Reply Score: 0

GNOME and PPD
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:23 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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As for the PPD matter only Linus is perfectly right!
Why don't you add the PPD explicit support in GNOME?

Reply Score: 0

RE: Everything he complains about ...
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:27 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

Umh, I'm sure that KDevelop works under Gnome as does all other KDE apps too... Maybe you don't have all the libs needed installed or there's something wrong with your installation, but it's not that you can't use KDE apps under Gnome and vice versa.

Reply Score: 1

I skipped ahead....
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I'm scared to read anything on here. The words that were stated tend to be fightin words in the community, so I'm going to stay out of it on which is better. I personally prefer KDE (although it still needs more spit & polish) because it's close to Windows. Not in ease of use, just location and functionality. BASH also tends to get the job done, although I'm not as skilled at it yet. I can do configure; make; make config and edit with VIM, restart services and mkdir rm and cp files all over /. I do wish KDE wasn't so generically looking, but since I don't contrib, I don't get a say.

Reply Score: 0

RE: rotating wall papers
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:31 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

Umh, KDE lacks screensavers out of the box? I don't know what kind of box are you using, but AFAIK there's been screensavers in KDE as far as I've been using it. And if you have kscreensaver-package installed, you can also use xscreensaver screensavers.

So, I'd say your problem has nothing to do with KDE but with your distribution.

Reply Score: 1

the WMs can be replaced in GNOME and KDE
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:41 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I just thought I'd say something that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Linus's original gripe was that he wanted to configure his mouse buttons in a certain way in GNOME but found that it wasn't possible, and for this reason prefers KDE. Couldn't he have just used another WM instead of the default (Metacity).

(Note: I don't use either, as I find them both bloated. I'm so glad we have a choice of WM/DE)

Reply Score: 0

KDE vs Gnome
by t0mLe on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:44 UTC
t0mLe
Member since:
2005-07-28

Today just before i read this article i installed Ubuntu and decided to test the KDE version (aka. kUbuntu). I was quite impressed. Though I am a Gnome user since Gnome 1.4, I found KDE to be both fast and "user"friendly. (Userfriendly = a bit more options then I am used to but nevertheless userfriendly.)

My point:

Use what works for you! Don't just listen to everybody else, try it and make up your OWN mind.

Regards.

Reply Score: 1

My Desktop is Better than Yours.
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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My desktop is better than yours.

Reply Score: 0

KDE Vs Gnome
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Which is better?

Reply Score: 0

RE: KDE Vs Gnome
by dylansmrjones on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:56 UTC in reply to "KDE Vs Gnome"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Commandline :p

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: KDE Vs Gnome
by theine on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:49 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE Vs Gnome"
theine Member since:
2005-09-29

Commandline :p

You are so bloody lame!

Reply Score: 0

This is what makes Linus great
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:56 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

He gives his opinion flat out, no gentle ways of nudging. And he has a sense of humor.

I'm not sure I agree with his opinion on Gnome; I think simplified platforms with the complex options hidden is a very noble way of doing things (and finding settings in gconf is actually easier than kcontrol, the search is better).

The trouble with KDE has been, for the last 3 years, that one release will be great and stable and another will be almost unusable! 3.5.0 is probably the best 3.x.0 release I've seen from them; and they broke konqueror (it crashes, occasionally; it was rock solid), kopete (so slow it's unusable, on an athlon 1800 I wait about a half second for it to process the message into the chat window), and konqueror's sftp functionality (it's on/off, sometimes it works sometimes it just craps out and you have to restart konqueror.
I'm not complaining. Just saying KDE needs to take some notes from Gnome and try to avoid coding features until bugs are squashed. Actually, they need to take the notes from the emacs team ;) .

What does KDE provide that Gnome doesn't: A file manager that can actually replace a lot of shell functionality. A pdf reader that's stable, fast, and pretty (aliasing and all that) (is evince up to snuff and in Gnome now?). A real text editor that's almost good enough to replace emacs (kate - gedit's tabs are very limiting as to how many files you can realistically work with; I want to work on 20ish files - in emacs I can type and autocomplete there names, in kate I have a full height list of files).

What does Gnome have on KDE? Better support for removable media: And by better, I mean Gnome's is good, KDE's is pathetic (I can mount easily but I need su to umount?!). Better written apps. For the apps gnome has they're usually significantly better; they may lack features but at least you can figure them out and they don't work in one version and break in the next.

I usually send people to Gnome if they're non-techie; and I send them to both if they are techies. If you like using your computer and you haven't tried: Gnome, KDE, Xfce4, WindowMaker, and Blackbox or fluxbox you've got work to do: You'll thank me later.
If you don't like your computer, well, I'm sorry?

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is what makes Linus great
by Chreo on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:19 UTC in reply to "This is what makes Linus great"
Chreo Member since:
2005-07-06

And he has a sense of humor.

Calling someone a F.I. or "Nazis" is not very funny to most people. I swear a lot when I talk and I generally consider it a bad habit and a sign of of general thoughtlessness and not a "sense of humor".

The whole Gnome/KDE debate is null and void and completely uninterresting. Use whatever floats your boat and stop derriding others for their choice. Both have their good sides as well as bads so none of them are perfect (and no Mac OS X & Windows are jsut as bad in this sense)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Finally, ...
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 19:58 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

Almost everything inside of kdelibs are LGPL'd, you should sometime take a look at the LICENSE file found from the source tree.

Reply Score: 1

Yes yes yes
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:02 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

"Same with the file dialog. Apparently it's too "confusing" to let users
just type the filename. So gnome forces you to do the icon selection
thing, never mind that it's a million times slower."

Amen. The new file dialog is pretty, and the hotlinks to special places is nice, and you can type into the list (but it doesn't put it in for you in the save dialog), but it's just not up to where the old dialog was. I am glad to see the type into the list functionality added. I'm not sure I agree with the way it's done, but it beats nothing.

Reply Score: 1

Bull
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Ede is better than both , why choose a bloatware over another? we know both KDE and Gnome Are superslow if you try to learn linux on a pentium pro 133mhz f--karound-pc =)

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
---

True, he is supporting KDE which is the more 'geeky' DE out there (in comparison to Gnome). As a result he is just showing that geeks prefer KDE.

I use FreeBSD and GNOME and many people call me geek. ;-)

Reply Score: 0

ValiantSoul Member since:
2005-07-20

heh I use FreeBSD and fluxbox and people also call me a geek - but I don't disagree : )

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:05 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

>Show me one KDE application that has a Toolbar which
>looks differently than other Toolbars used in KDE.

Well, that wouldn't be so hard to show. It's just about having two different toolbar classes with different outlook, just like Gnome does have. So, go and get kdelibs source, modify, build it and make your app to use that then ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: you poor assholes
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:08 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

Take a look at here: http://live.gnome.org/ThreePointZero

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Linus: -1
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:09 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

"So, then why do people attack Bill Gates so much about Windows? I don't see Bill Gates' head as the Windows logo either."
Because he makes more than 50% of the profit from it. He runs the company that ships it and is the CTO of said company.
Really they shouldn't just blame him. For example, if Vista sucks you should probably be calling Jim Alchin names: But generally, the people who know who Linus is are well aware that Bill Gates <=/=> Microsoft; most people who know who Bill Gates is don't know who Linus Torvalds is. So, it's not really fair to attribute their comments on us, know what I mean?

Reply Score: 1

RE: RE: i agree
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

"i agree that linus could have used better words, but i have to agree with im 100%. Gnome is just not usable, kde has so many applications and technologies that are so much better than what is in gnome, you cant even compare it( look at k3b, kopete, kpdf, konqueror(with the kio's))"

I can't stand all those IM's except for GAIM. ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE: osx and gnome similarities
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:12 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

Hey, you can do the same with KDE! ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:16 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

GtkToolbar is significantly less restrictive...
I do believe there's a good reason for that.

Gnome, in a sense, is starting from behind on this because most GTK applications don't want to be Gnome applications; they want to be GTK applications. Why? They want people who use WM, flux, etc to use their app and not be burdened with 100MB of Gnome libraries.

In your shot, the apps that don't have text under icon are not Gnome apps:
easytag depends on:
id3lib
gtk2
libvorbis
flac>=1.1.2
libmp4v2

abiword depends on:
fribidi
enchant
libgnomeprintui

Abiword's Gnome deps are optional.
What you've done here would be like me finding a QT application, running it under KDE, and complaining that it doesn't look like the other KDE apps!

*Deps taken from archlinux.org

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous
Member since:
---

That's what I think the message hides. When you program for corporations, like RedHat, the priorities of the corporation are different than most people. It's so it, that RedHat's CEO said that the Linux desktop isn't ready for most people, so RedHat decides what their developers should work on, which is not necessarily best for most people.

KDE, on the other hand, has had the initiative as the best supported desktop for common people along with corporate people. So, up till now, I have been using mostly Gnome and GTK+, but I'm willing to give KDE and QT a shot in the future. All this in the name of providing useful tools for users.

Corporate IT sucks in closed and open source.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Linus ?
by teprrr on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:20 UTC
teprrr
Member since:
2005-07-06

Try putting it to Google. At least Finnish version of Google gives you some links (like one to Wikipedia) which will tell you who he is. If you don't know something, just google for it, it usually knows something about it ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Who Cares?
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:33 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Easy parady:
So you've decided to move to Windows. Good for you. Ok, will you need XP Pro, XP Home, or MCE? Oh, well one is for "professionals," one is for home, and the other is if you'll be using media like videos and such. Confused? I know, just pick pro.
Ok, so now what do you want to do? Oh, e-mail. You use webmail right? Oh good. Cause don't ever use Outlook Express, it's a virus mess waiting to happen! If you wanna use one make sure you pick something like thunderbird.
Ok, so you'll need to pick up some AV. Norton or McCafee will both work. You'll also need to make sure you get adaware or spyblock! Go ahead and run all of those every other week; and don't forget your updates every first Tuesday! It'll tell you to install them.
Don't worry, you can use firefox on your Windows machine!


Because there is a platform out there which has no complex little things you'll have to learn. And it is called NULL, nil, 0.

Mac zealouts: option click, hold click, apple+option or w/e it is to get "advanced" options; etc.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Linus: -1
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:35 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

It also invokes Godwin's law here ;) .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
Technically speaking, I think Linus lost the conversation. But I suppose this isn't usenet, and he didn't really compare them to nazi's he used a colloquism which means you're being over-controlling; so maybe it can pass?

Reply Score: 1

Damn! It's the biggest flamewar ever!
by Timerever on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:35 UTC
Timerever
Member since:
2005-07-06

and I would love to see someone clicking in the '...or read all 415 comments in a single page'

X-D That would be hilarious!

Reply Score: 1

Timerever Member since:
2005-07-06

D'oh... it's true... only takes 10 seconds (I'm on a 1Mb/s cable connection)

But damn! It's a big one anyway! If this gets 1000 comments (since it's obvious it will reach 500), I'll pay you a WebBeer®

Reply Score: 1

RE[10]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by ma_d on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:44 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Yes, actually for non-Gnome apps:
Open ~/.gtkrc-2.0
Add this line:
gtk-toolbar-style = GTK_TOOLBAR_ICONS

That should shut the text off for icons on non-Gnome GTK apps. Unless the developer overrides you... Gnome may actually do this, but many apps may override it.

Reply Score: 1

Wow
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:53 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

You guys need to get a life. Use the desktop you like best and get over it, that's what linux is all about- choice. Get real, and quit wasting your time.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Wow
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 20:54 UTC in reply to "Wow"
Anonymous Member since:
---

> that's what linux is all about- choice.

There is no such thing as choice anymore these days.

Reply Score: 0

v Linus Sucks
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:06 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

If you can't handle the different interface required by some aspects of a CLI you're definitely not in the target group for a CLI. Does gterm bind Ctrl+C to copy?

Would be pretty stupid to bind Ctrl+C to copy. I assume you never worked on the CLI, because if so you would use Ctrl+C for something else.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: File Manager
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:20 UTC
MamiyaOtaru
Member since:
2005-11-11

"I still prefer the old text-field for adress since I can change the current adress without rewriting the location of a file or simply paste the adress into the input field... I think the old text field was far superior than the current buttons."

The other nice thing about the text fields in KDE's open dialog is the ability to use kio-slaves. In the directory field I can type for example "locate: foo" to find all files with foo in the name. Or "locate: bandName" to find all songs by a certain band, and have the list appear in the dialog, where I can also drill down by directory through the results. And that's just one kio-slave.

No noob would ever do that, but what power user, on finding out about it, wouldn't? ;)

Edited 2005-12-13 21:35

Reply Score: 4

Linus == Linux
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:27 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Ok Linus = Linux as said Linux is just the kernel.
Linus != GNU/Linux

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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It's interesting to see that usability has obviously never been a design goal for Linus Torvald when he wrote the Linux kernel. Linux is about hacking and tweaking by design - looks like a hobbyist thing to me. It's not a coincidence that other Unix/BSD systems give users a far more clean and consistent experience, because some projects take these things seriously as a design goal.

true so true. :-)

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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That doesn't mean KDE isn't as well, but they do (IMHO) a better job at also reaching out to the advanced users, the type of user who would realistically actually be using Linux right now.

My Desktop is for desktop use. To launch applications. The REAL advanced user doesn't click around and uses the CLI like I do. I want my desktop show me the time, lauch and handles an office suite and to play my DVD and a few things more. The average user doesn't need a GUI to configure CUPS.

Reply Score: 0

I don't get this all :-)
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:48 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I am reading and reading and reading and reading and I still don't get why people expect a desktop to have advanced funtionality. For what for god's sake? I don't get it. In my opinion it's the applications that have to have functionality. ;)

Reply Score: 0

Some Points
by Jarsto on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:55 UTC
Jarsto
Member since:
2005-10-06

I doubt many people will read this, with over 450 previous comments (and I certainly didn't read all 450 of them) there are still a few points I'd like to make.

First on the new-computer-user issue. I don't think you can equate less of a learning-curve with better for new users. Unless the new user in question is at least in his or her forties getting someone used to the presence of a learning curve is not just good but possibly essential. Computer capabilities are still changing at a rapid rate and interfaces will follow. Anyone new to computers today will probably have to keep adjusting to smaller and greater changes to the interface for the rest of his/her life. In my opinion starting with that realisation, and picking up the skill to deal with new interfaces when they come is better for new user than having no learning curve to begin with and spending the rest of life confused.

Second, even if you want to keep menues simple and streamlined this is no reason to cut out the options themselves. In a worst case scenario you can just stick them behind an "Advanced Options" button and leave those who dare to deal with the more confusing menu. This does seem like an excuse to cut options for the sake of cutting options rather than anything actually to do with usability.

Third both KDE and GNOME could stand some improvements, neither is perfect. But in the context as I understand it Linus was probably right. For someone who wants the advanced options available now using KDE (or something else other than GNOME) that does offer them is the most likely way to get them. I also agree with his more general comment about whether no features equals usability (also see above), though it could have been put somewhat more diplomatically.

Reply Score: 1

RE:
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 21:59 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Otherwise, I'm moving to a BSD.
Wow.

GNOME runs very well on FreeBSD. :>

Reply Score: 0

Funny Linus trolling?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:09 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I mean come on.

He made a couple of statements that were obviously second-hand so-and-so told me it worked this way comments that do not even apply to the current Gnome desktop.

He complained about functionality not being there that is in there. The functionality in that instance needs to improve but .... still its there.

And his main hack off is with Metacity and WM-functionality that he wants to be more traditionally Unix-like. I cannot blame him its been due for a while and Havoc just has not gotten there in his patches.

The funny thing is that I see features that were gone back in the day with early 2.x releases that have come back to Nautilus and the pref menu compared with 2.0 is well almost well in Ubuntu anyway its really long.

Cairo integration and a proper esd-replacement for the sound server that actually works with existing programs and integration of Beagle into file manager are all coming mind you but we need to keep something in mind...

KDE was there first and the Gnome and KDE have different goals.

I like choice and I am not sure why the guy who made the damn kernel because he wanted choice and did not like Minix felt the need to as one developer put it go around and p*ss on everyone's heads.

Reply Score: 0

RE: RE: Linus' preferences
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:11 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

KDE and GNOME are both useless pieces of shit compared to Aqua. Wake up and smell the coffee!

How many first time users can find the way to configure the network or even turn off the annoying dialogues and blinking cursor shit.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: RE: Linus' preferences
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:29 UTC in reply to "RE: RE: Linus' preferences"
Anonymous Member since:
---

"KDE and GNOME are both useless pieces of shit compared to Aqua. Wake up and smell the coffee!"

Isnt Aqua an interface while Gnome and KDE are DE's.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:15 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

ZSH is way better.

Reply Score: 0

i knew it all along
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Gnome has cooties, Linus confirms it :^P

Reply Score: 0

Oh Thom. Oh Eugenia. Why?
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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People, really.

You must have known what would happen.

Why, why did you do this?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous
Member since:
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... I am impressed how clear-headed and insightful Linus is - it's clearly not by accident that he still is regarded as an authority.
A lot of people tend to make a religion out of their views, thus clouding their vision, and happily Linus does not belong to them. He has a very clear vision and stays level-headed about it - one can see that when one reads his mails. Very refreshing.

Reply Score: 1

Apple's HIG
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:44 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Both projects' developers need to have a serious look at Apple's Human Interface Guidelines.

And so does Apple...

Reply Score: 1

it sounds ...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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like Linus trying to emulate Steve jobs. won't work dude, the latter got vision.

Reply Score: 0

linus torvalds LINUX(R)
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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hey..i've never said such a thing :|

Reply Score: 0

Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by aaronb on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:50 UTC
aaronb
Member since:
2005-07-06

Linus has wipped up a storm. I think this is kind of what Gnome needs.

I like Gnome and KDE, But I see some of the points that he has made.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:07 UTC in reply to " Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
Anonymous Member since:
---

Linus has wipped up a storm. I think this is kind of what Gnome needs.

I like Gnome and KDE, But I see some of the points that he has made.


Yep - heads have been clunked, although these situations often have the habit of focusing minds - No doubt some positives will come out of this episode ;)

Reply Score: 0

It's too bad
by cendrizzi on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:51 UTC
cendrizzi
Member since:
2005-07-08

This should have never happened. That list is about KDE and Gnome coming together and sharing stuff, making the linux desktop as a whole a better.

Linus wasn't using his brain.

Reply Score: 1

maybe...
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 22:56 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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maybe linus should stick to kernel programming and leave usability/accessibilty to the experts.

Reply Score: 0

RE: it sounds ...
by sbenitezb on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:11 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

Yeah, and Linus didn't?

Reply Score: 1

Cmon
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:12 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

people, the 500th post is near, let's break all records!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Cmon
by ValiantSoul on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:19 UTC in reply to "Cmon"
ValiantSoul Member since:
2005-07-20

Well "CONFIRMED: Apple to use Intel Chips - *updated*" (http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=10765) had 378 and "Apple to drop PPC for x86?" (http://www.osnews.com/comment.php?news_id=10751) had 325 so not breaking the 500 but those were the two biggest I could think of off the top of my head.

Reply Score: 1

attn OSNews staff
by The Lone OSer on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:17 UTC
The Lone OSer
Member since:
2005-07-11

I don't think I've ever seen such debate on OSNews.. almost 500 posts... what score did the previous most high posted topic get? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[10]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by Morty on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:24 UTC
Morty
Member since:
2005-07-06

The look and behaviour is pretty much the same for those applications. Whether they have a handle or not means nothing. It's just a different value for a certain attribute.

But there are no "certain attribute" causing the difference, visual and in behavior. There are 3 different libraries used. The "pretty much the same" are not the issue it's just the symptom of the problem. The inconsistency is in the code.


GTK+ has a common class for toolbars

And it's only one of three widely used classes in Gnome.

Reply Score: 1

Gnome as the contender
by dukeinlondon on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:27 UTC
dukeinlondon
Member since:
2005-07-06

years ago I switched to KDE because I couldn't figure out how to create application desktop links. With KDE it was already a simple drag and drop from the menus. I am sure it's solved but the writing was on the wall.

I sure hope Gnome catches up (I use KDE) because we'd have two uber cool desktops for Linux rather than just one.

KDE developpers appear less dogmatic to me. You rarely hear about usability theory in KDE. It's more of a doer attitude and resolving problems. The fact that you have a search feature for configuration items is shows its very config rich and that developpers realise it's unwieldy at times.

The search feature in the kmenu is just utter smartitude.

Reply Score: 1

Xfce
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:32 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

Xfce with its C++ binding is the way to go ;)

Reply Score: 0

Almost 500!
by Timerever on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:47 UTC
Timerever
Member since:
2005-07-06

Come on! Keep posting non-sense! Let us raise this article to a god-like article!

Thou shalt be immortalized!

Reply Score: 0

I did try KDE
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:50 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
---

I did try KDE (suse 9.0) but got a headache of all these options. Yes, I must be a big idiot.
But this idiot loves GNOME forever!

Reply Score: 0

RE: This is what makes Linus great
by m_abs on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:52 UTC
m_abs
Member since:
2005-07-06

Reply to http://www.osnews.com/reply.php?news_id=12956&comment_id=72376

Which distro. are you using?
I have a great problem with kubuntu, I was and still will be setting up (just a little later) as a workstations for a friends new company.

The problem is that everything is way too slow and spend way more RAM when is reasonable.

I've withnessed amaroK, using 1.4GB+ RAM, playlist about 10 tracks, bad mem leak. On my own PC I havn't seen this (yet), however it does spend nearly three times as much RAM in kubuntu then amaroK does on my gentoo PC. And that is with a clean platlist/collection on kubuntu and about 750 tracks in the playlist/collection on Gentoo.

I really don't hope everyone have had this experience with KDE on kubuntu, be course I can understand the claim that KDE weast ressources if peoples only experience this.

I don't wish too flame kubuntu, I happen to like it a lot if it wasn't this slow. I've just installed it again on an old PC with very limited RAM, too figure this out.

Edited 2005-12-13 23:54

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Member since:
---

(K)ubuntu is a joke. Try a slackware. All the people i know that tried kubuntu got a lot of kde kubuntu-specific bugs that's not showing in slackware or suse 10.

Reply Score: 0

Interface NAZI's
by Anonymous on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:54 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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For the first time I must admit I do like nazi's. The kind that build interfaces.

Reply Score: 0

Is it me or...
by Timerever on Tue 13th Dec 2005 23:58 UTC
Timerever
Member since:
2005-07-06

are the comments shrinking? I checked this page 5 minutes ago and there was 489 comments and now there's only 478? WTF?

Yes I'm browsing at -5 so I can read all the naughtyness X-D

Reply Score: 1

RE: Is it me or...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:04 UTC in reply to "Is it me or..."
Anonymous Member since:
---

> Are the comments shrinking? I checked this page 5 minutes ago and there was 489 comments
> and now there's only 478? WTF?

And it's 466 now. Indeed you are right, I realize the same as you... I also saw that they also remove votes from gnomefiles.org e.g. there was an app that had 142 votes and a average of 7.62 and now it's back to 92 with an average of 8.43 how's that possible ?

Reply Score: 0

RE[11]: Yiiiirrr!!!
by ma_d on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:03 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

So, go rewrite all the code that uses the toolbar classes from gnomeui. Gtk hasn't always has support for everything it has today, and back in the day when it didn't Gnome fixed the problem by writing their own sections.
It'll take time for those things to fizzle out. Be patient or get to work.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: This is what makes Linus great
by ma_d on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:08 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Generally archlinux, the kde builds are vanilla with a few theming files added, like a custom submenu in kmenu and a custom startup splash.
It's KDE though I've also used: RHEL3, RHEL4, Slackware.
KDE 3.4 has been excellent. 3.5 has a few glitches to work through. 3.2.0 and 3.3.0 were unusable.

I can't get amarok to run long enough. With the last two versions it crashes if you change out custom playlists very much. I like amarok, I really do.

It's not KDE which is slow. I'm not sure why, but Ubuntu IME has been plagued by slow builds. It may be that they're doing 386 builds (a complete waste of time, linux may or may not even work on a 386 without a 387). Or maybe they're using a really old version of gcc? I'm not sure, but yes I noticed a significant difference in performance between Ubuntu and most other distributions.

Reply Score: 1

RE[9]: Linus: -1
by ma_d on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:10 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Anything is better than cleartype: I don't like fuzzy fonts.
There's making it less jaggedy, and then there's making it so fuzzy the font bleeds back into itself.

Reply Score: 1

Maybe Next time...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Maybe next time Linus will check to see if a list is public before he puts his foot into his mouth.

Reply Score: 0

Mistakes
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:13 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Torvarlds is full of mistakes, this time.
It was born to write kernels. HCI it's not his daily bread. So, Linus, go back to lowlevel programming, now.

Reply Score: 0

Linus and KDE
by ibantxuyn on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:18 UTC
ibantxuyn
Member since:
2005-08-27

Jeje, I create a funny post + pic about KDE and Linus, check out in http://blog.alucardx.net/blogfiles/ltorvaldskde.jpg

I don't have GNOME, and don't work with KDE, WindowMaker just rulez for me ;)

enjoy!

Reply Score: 1

Better this article reach the 500 mark
by Timerever on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:40 UTC
Timerever
Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, I'm going to sleep. If tomorrow, when I check back this article, the comments still haven't reached the 500 mark I'll have to spank all your zealots ass.

Ya have been warned!
(P.S.: I'm aware of the grammatical errors, but I don't give a fsck)

Reply Score: 1

New world record !
by jon1012 on Wed 14th Dec 2005 00:52 UTC
jon1012
Member since:
2005-07-19

Zero to godwin in less than 5 minutes ! lol

Reply Score: 1

v Doesn't change anything
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:26 UTC
3 to go !!
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:46 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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welcome to the new millenium

Reply Score: 0

Linus, God and other people
by PrimalDK on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:47 UTC
PrimalDK
Member since:
2005-07-12

First, I'd like to know what grants all of you, who think you can decide what "responsibilities" Linus has towards a community who uses what he - by his original choice - chose to give away, the right to restrict his freedom with moral judgements and other pointless talks on his "status" within your "community". He lives in a western democracy of which freedom of speech is a crucial component. So, if Linus chooses to voice his oppinion, that just makes him another guy like yourselves. The little short of 500 comments on this "news" item shows that voicing one's oppinion is a much practiced passtime in the Free Software and Open Source world.

Also, that users should have the freedom to change some things taken away from them, because someone decided - for them - that it's not good for them, sounds to me more like the totalitarian mono-cultures of the corporate world (which by the way embraces GNOME) than the principles of freedom so valued and fought for by the FS and OS communities - as Linus points out, if you care to read his postings.

Don't give me "spatial view is better". Who says so? Why? For whom? Does this mean that you'll all stop drinking coke and beer, forget the pizzas, exercise a couple of hours a day, cut your time in front of the monitor to a minimum and start taking meditation classes? Am I to take it that you'll all be studying philosophy, reading the classics, enjoying the outdoors, getting spiritually revived and drop your pie-throwing contests on OSNews?

Well, you should, 'cause it's "better for you".

I, for one, don't think it's anybody's business how I choose to spend my spare time (except my wife's and son's, of course).

When my left index finger gets tired, I want to use my right one, or maybe my thumb. Or why not my nose? If I like 117 icons around my windows so I can click on them - or JUST because I feel SAFER that way, then none of you have the freedom to say "you can't".

That's Linus' point:

That freedom was signed away with the advent of the open source model: The freedom to restrict other people's freedom.

Reply Score: 1

defile
Member since:
2005-07-09

I have used and admired both desktops and watched both develop into something amazing (XFCE has gotten quite good too).

Starting at 2.0 it seems the Gnome developers took a hard look at what they were trying to accomplish and make the desktop into something coherent, clean and elegant. Since 2.8 (IMHO), this hard work started paying off and really shows. The impression I get is they are trying to make everything work well, then gradually add features, while keeping things intuitive. Things have improved greatly (2.12.x), and the desktop is still clean (maybe even cleaner), almost zen.

Gnome is not be as feature rich as KDE, but I each targets a different type of user. KDE, feature rich, everything in your face. New features rapidly added, and gradually refined. Gnome, very usable, but more uncluttered. New features integrated slowly, but well implemented (generally).

Reply Score: 1

...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus farted again. Everybody bow...
It's all about freedom. Don't like it ? Don't use it, don't diss it. Why you want to force someone to us what YOU like ???
I like spam. You don't ? I don't care. eat it... (with this topic).

Reply Score: 1

v who cares
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:52 UTC
RE[3]: This is what makes Linus great
by m_abs on Wed 14th Dec 2005 01:58 UTC
m_abs
Member since:
2005-07-06

If I want an expert distro. I choose Gentoo ;) Slackware is good too, just not my taste.

But I want an easy (and binary) distro with a descent package manager and frontend. for a desktop enviroment for non-experts, I just need to find the right distro.
Also access to newest (or at least) nearly newest software, like OOo2.0 and KDE3.5, is a must otherwise I would have choosen Mandriva.

Reply Score: 1

v Max
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:06 UTC
v I'll be thinking of you... ;)
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:07 UTC
RE: Doesn't change anything
by ma_d on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:21 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Mac doesn't get along well as a Unix desktop. It's incompatible with common graphical Unix tools like: X11, vnc (Mac's remote desktop is so horridly overpriced...). It doesn't really integrate with the Unix core, it does everything it can to hide it actually (Finder doesn't want to show you real folders on the disk, but select subtrees that don't look like system files; which isn't so bad in itself).

Basically with OS X you've got a Unix system running Macintosh. A lot of people really like this, but to call it a Unix desktop doesn't seem right to me. It'd be like calling explorer a Unix desktop once you've installed services for Unix (in a vague, reversed, and non-exacting way).

Microsoft isn't stupid, I doubt they're laughing. They're probably reading up and taking notes: Hmm, people seem to like this, businesses seem to like this, etc etc.
If anything, we're probably helping them do their research ;) . Laughing would be underestimating, and I think Microsoft makes it a point not to underestimate their competition.

Reply Score: 1

Dear God!
by kaiwai on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:52 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

He blimming right you know! deep down inside, we all know he is right; the fact is, GNOME is going to the other logical extreme, stripping out anything that could possibly, in the slightest way, confuse an end user - strip out configuration options, strip out this and that - whilst they're doing all this slashing and burning, they still can't even get the basic architecture issues correct - the messaging framework is non-extant, the GNOME-VFS has gone through more revolutions that France with zero stability in site, we have a a tonne of small libraries that are poorly maintained and lack integration with each other, and to top it off, the over all feel from a end user and a technical persepective - everything has been thrown into a box with GNOME slapped across the front of it, with little effort to ensure applications integrate well with each other.

Please, I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, if IBM, Novell or SUN wish to make themselves the mother thereasea of the opensource world, they should purchase Trolltech and completely re-release the whole Qt library under a licence that allows both proprietary and opensource vendors to hook into the library at no cost - be the library BSD, CDDL or even LGPL - make it free, throw some money at it once and year to maintain its up keep, and voila, Linux, more correctly, UNIX will have a fully mature and integrated desktop ready for the end user.

Reply Score: 1

Dear God!
by kaiwai on Wed 14th Dec 2005 02:52 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

He blimming right you know! deep down inside, we all know he is right; the fact is, GNOME is going to the other logical extreme, stripping out anything that could possibly, in the slightest way, confuse an end user - strip out configuration options, strip out this and that - whilst they're doing all this slashing and burning, they still can't even get the basic architecture issues correct - the messaging framework is non-extant, the GNOME-VFS has gone through more revolutions that France with zero stability in site, we have a a tonne of small libraries that are poorly maintained and lack integration with each other, and to top it off, the over all feel from a end user and a technical persepective - everything has been thrown into a box with GNOME slapped across the front of it, with little effort to ensure applications integrate well with each other.

Please, I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, if IBM, Novell or SUN wish to make themselves the mother thereasea of the opensource world, they should purchase Trolltech and completely re-release the whole Qt library under a licence that allows both proprietary and opensource vendors to hook into the library at no cost - be the library BSD, CDDL or even LGPL - make it free, throw some money at it once and year to maintain its up keep, and voila, Linux, more correctly, UNIX will have a fully mature and integrated desktop ready for the end user.

Reply Score: 1

*Geez*
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 03:58 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I must say I'm starting to loose all my respect for this guy. I think he developed some serious personallity issues. Not only does he make halfassed remarks, but also refering to people as N*zi is so low, that everyone should just stop reading right there! I've been using Linux since 1996, but I'm thinking now of celebrating my 10th OSS OS aniversity rather on FreeBSD. Not that anyone cares. But he should get his senses checked, and publicly apologize for this outbrake. There is actually no way I can express my disappointment. And I must admit, although I'm not a Microsoft fan, but we won't ever hear anything like that from MS.

My recommandation would be, switch to Windows or *BSD, and ignore him.

Reply Score: 0

v RE: *Geez*
by Mitarai on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:07 UTC in reply to "*Geez*"
v Linus getting bloated and buggy???
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:05 UTC
Jarsto Member since:
2005-10-06

"All my GNU/Linux boxes run GNOME and always will. KDE is a bloated, buggy piece of shit and way too much like Windoze, which I haven't used for nine years."

If you haven't used it for nine years I don't think you can realistically judge KDE today (aka version 3.5) KDE was announced as a project is 1996, nine year ago, but it wasn't even at version 1.0 until 1998, just seven years ago. So judging something as buggy based on what could only be early pre-1.0 software doesn't seem to be realistic.

I'm also not sure where you're coming from with "bloated"; booting my system (Arch Linux) into GNOME leaves a memory use of 11% (excluding cache) say 55 MB (total memory is 512 MB). Doing the same for KDE (which has two more applets running on the panel) only takes around 50 MB. Note this is GNOME 2.12 en KDE 3.5 both running from a full clean reboot. I'm inclined to think the difference may actually be just rounding up or down slightly differently, but I can't see how KDE is bloated based on this.

Reply Score: 3

jaboua Member since:
2005-09-08

I thought he meant he hadn't used windows in all this time? However, just let the troll alone ;)

Reply Score: 1

v No sale
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:18 UTC
RE: No sale
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 08:38 UTC in reply to "No sale"
Anonymous Member since:
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dude. that's the pot calling the kettle black.

Reply Score: 0

Flame-war Frenzy
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:23 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Hah! Just wait until this gets posted to Slashdot...

WARNING: OSNews database meltdown eminent.

Reply Score: 0

Good stuff...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 04:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I have never seen so many comments on one article on OSnews. So here is another one. Just for the record I vote KDE. Hava nice day.

Reply Score: 0

I use both
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 05:17 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I've been using Linux before KDE or Gnome were even gleams in their papas' eyes. Now I use both of them. KDE is definitely overkill on the desktop, with all its options and menu items, but overkill is exactly what I need on my server and number crunchers (I'm a scientist). On the other hand, I run Gnome on my laptop, and also a couple of workstations that are reserved primarily for student and assistant use. Everything seems to work just fine.
If Linus really did write that comment, he just needs to get out a little bit more. In spite of all their many quirks, no one should take anything away from these two awesome pieces of open software development, or the small army of developers who have made the modern Linux desktop for us.

Reply Score: 0

KDE has it right
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 05:49 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I actually totally 100% agree with Linus, if you can't use the damn system because you are scared of how it will look, pull your head out! Try instead to make everything work and THEN figure a way out to make it look nice. DUH!

Reply Score: 0

Gnome
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 07:21 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Hello Everyone

I am just going to give my suggestion for a person who is very objective ...

I have used both kde and gnome for a long time and I think kde is much better and the kde develeopment team is doing a great job ... I also realy like kdevelop which is a fantastic IDE to create both kde/Qt applications ...

Reply Score: 1

both suck
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 07:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Well...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 07:34 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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That got ugly!

Reply Score: 0

Sure is Linus Torvalds?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 07:48 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus use to sign his messages with 2 Tabs and then his name "Linus", in the message showed in the article I can see 3 Tabs before the name "Linus".

:-/

Reply Score: 0

Who uses what..
by netpython on Wed 14th Dec 2005 08:26 UTC
netpython
Member since:
2005-07-06

Is it relevant who uses what?
Personally i think whatever works is good.Furthermore i think it's wise when public figures in the community don't get involved in trivial talk about which desktop flavor to use.

Reply Score: 1

Latest update
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 08:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I just spoke to Linus on the phone. He says he is giving up Linux and that he has repented for doing this to mankind. Never did he intend for his kernel to be the seed that would unleash a war seeing developers attack their brothers in the KDE/Gnome saga.

He wants you all to know that he is alright and that he now uses OS X.

Rrgds,

FGA

Reply Score: 0

hmm.
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 08:45 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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i use gnome, kde has a more bloated feel than windows. i hate kde.

Reply Score: 0

Oh cramp...
by kill on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:29 UTC
kill
Member since:
2005-11-03

All users who registered here has probably posted so here goes mine: I currently use Gnome coz fonts seem cleaner, Icons seem better on me eyes. I have missed kcontrol though... but both DE's are only all they can be... which is "incomplete" for every person out there who has ever tried to use them. GNOME aspires to be MacOSX while KDE to Windows. Pick which one you came from. If you can afford it, just buy fscking Windows or a Mac... they are, and I'm reluctant to say this, BETTER in every perspective.

Reply Score: 2

You ungrateful sons-a-b*****s...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:54 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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maybe he knows something we don't know.. He is the father of linux, guys, he has the right to talk about gnome or kde the way he wants. Show some respect to the man when he has something to say.

Reply Score: 1

Yay for Linus
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 09:57 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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This is great. At the end of the year the Linux community usually gets boring (due to many releases around October) but Linus fixed that by fanning the most useless flamewar ever!

I now have to add my worthless comment:

I will never switch to KDE till one of its themes can give me the pure whiteness of Gnome's Industrial Engine. The rest does not matter- I do not fear gconf!

Reply Score: 0

Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by TusharG on Wed 14th Dec 2005 10:02 UTC
TusharG
Member since:
2005-07-06

Nothing wrong if he thinks we should use KDE! Problem is its Linus who is speaking this and with some really bad language! If you check the TUX magazine they also prefer KDE over GNome... but they dont make public statment like this... this is really shame on Linus to make a irresponsible statment like this. I guess he has started his own down fall with this statment. People might not take him seriously anymore.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by Soulbender on Wed 14th Dec 2005 10:08 UTC in reply to "Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"People might not take him seriously anymore."

If irrational and irritable behaviour really mattered for being taken seriously noone would take Ballmer, Gates and Jobs seriously.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Torvalds: 'Use KDE'
by morglum666 on Wed 14th Dec 2005 14:23 UTC in reply to "Torvalds: 'Use KDE'"
morglum666 Member since:
2005-07-06

I have to disagree. Choosing one of the two major window managers (KDE,Gnome) will have a very good effect on pushing a somewhat standard linux desktop.

Perhaps he was being very clever and trying to incite that discussion, albeit with foul language and all..

Reply Score: 1

This was not about KDE vs Gnome
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 10:51 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Povocative title really inspired a heated KDE/Gnome flamewar.
IMHO, the topic of the original discussion was different. Gnome is becoming a serious commercial product distributed by Red Hat. This is why Gnome developers do not listen to end users' concerns. The are not arrogant, they do what they're told. They just "know it so much better, so everything will be just fine".

May be it is the time for a fork of the Gnome project?

Reply Score: 0

X-D
by Timerever on Wed 14th Dec 2005 11:05 UTC
Timerever
Member since:
2005-07-06

542? Damn you saved yourself from some good spanking!

(In a previous post I said I would spank all of you if this thread didn't reach the 500 comments mark)

Reply Score: 1

I'd like to point out...
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 11:28 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Besides what I've stated originally on "He's mostly right", I'd like to point out the hipocresy most gnome users/developers have regarding desktop discussion:

while it's fine to bash other DE (Icaza, other Gnome dev's) it's not right to criticise gnome proyect (¿why?)

And also to point out that the excuse kde is windowslike or gnome is mac alike is just bullshit: they're configurable enough -ok, kde is more configurable than gnome- to look like anything you want.

Reply Score: 0

KDE
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 11:29 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Acroding to uncyclopedia:

KDE philosophy is "if you find an empty space durinK one seKond, add an useless feature or somethinK very very irritating. The iKon must be shiny and rotating".

While uncyclopedia is a humor site the only thing they actually got wrong there was the "rotating".

Reply Score: 0

RE: KDE
by edomaur on Wed 14th Dec 2005 12:11 UTC in reply to "KDE"
edomaur Member since:
2005-08-07

Hum, in the Gnome "article", they also said this :

Following this policy, GNOME is the only piece of software with fewer features every release.

* The 0.1 release was a full networked-component desktop.
* The 1.0 release was a real big desktop for power users.
* The 1.5 release temporarily broke the GNOME naming convention by adopting the name "Gnome Iconz Editon."
* The 2.0 release was for average users.
* The 2.4 release is known as the "brain dead moron user" release.
* The 2.12 release is known as the "W" release (for George "W" Bush)
* The alpha 3.0 release, Project Topaz, is expected in its final version to be a white screen telling you to use a pen and a piece of paper to do your work and to shut this bloody computer off. As of the early alpha version, the keyboard interface and serial port are still active for debugging purposes. Gnome 3.0 will require 1GB of Ram and a modern graphics card with OpenGL support; the graphical debugger requires a 64-bit processor and a 256 megabyte video card,

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: KDE
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:49 UTC in reply to "RE: KDE"
Anonymous Member since:
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Hum, in the Gnome "article", they also said this :

Yea, but that doesn't mean that the KDE article isn't accurate. ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: KDE
by edomaur on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:56 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: KDE"
edomaur Member since:
2005-08-07

Oh I wasn't meaning anything, only laughing. It's an "article", not an article...

Reply Score: 1

v RE[3]: KDE > Gnome
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 12:21 UTC
RE[4]: KDE > Gnome
by edomaur on Wed 14th Dec 2005 12:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: KDE > Gnome"
edomaur Member since:
2005-08-07

What are you smocking ? It seems to be an interesting blend.

Anyway : KDE is not run by any company.

Qt is published by Trolltech. As it has been said, the Qt lib is published under the GPL license. Ok, you have to pay for Qt3 if you want to use it under Windows or if you want to write closed sources applications, but still, the GPLed versions (Qt3/X11 and the whole Qt4) are here to stay if any change of mind happen at Trolltech.

You know, the GPL, the probable reason why we are here arguing instead of having a life outside.

As for "technically superior", I do not think there is a winner here. Gnome as well as KDE has its merits, but who are you, little troll, to say that a design philosophy is better than the other ? Are you even knowledgeable enough to understand the differences ?

Reply Score: 1

Then,Anyone know What distro Linus using?
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:02 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Now wondering What Distro that Linus using
Anyone know?

Reply Score: 0

Anonymous Member since:
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LOL.... I can't believe someone actually asked this!

Reply Score: 0

ROFLMAO talk about flame bait
by Robocoastie on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:07 UTC
Robocoastie
Member since:
2005-09-15

OMG. What a flame bait! This'll be good. For my worthless 2 cents I prefer Ubuntu (gnome), its themese are clean and pretty, it doesn't feel like MSFT Windows etc. Stock KDE on the other hand looks ugly, menus everywhere, just a convoluted mess. Custom KDE though like Xandros or Linspire does is nice.

Reply Score: 2

RE: ROFLMAO talk about flame bait
by edomaur on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:30 UTC in reply to "ROFLMAO talk about flame bait"
edomaur Member since:
2005-08-07

+1 for the flamebaiting !!

lol !

Reply Score: 1

jon1012 Member since:
2005-07-19

+1 for +1 for the flamebaiting !

Reply Score: 1

Things are moving.
by edomaur on Wed 14th Dec 2005 13:58 UTC
edomaur
Member since:
2005-08-07

Hé, topic has transmutted into a cross discution between X11/Desktops/kernel engineers ;)

http://lists.osdl.org/pipermail/desktop_architects/2005-December/00...

Reply Score: 1

I'm just a user...
by biteydog on Wed 14th Dec 2005 14:11 UTC
biteydog
Member since:
2005-10-06

..and as a user I agree with Linus (on the whole), although I'm doing this on a Gnome (Ubuntu) desktop I stuck on an old Laptop when my workstations were incinerated by lightning. Gnome, in its Ubuntu form (I like brown) looks and feels good for everyday tasks but I keep on wondering how to make it do this or that I need - it usually involves fiddling in a terminal. I don't mind fiddling in terminals, I can do it easily enough, but I'm a graphics man - it breaks my workflow - I think it's a left-brain/right-brain thing - and I usually have to pause before and after to realign myself to the task in hand.

Reply Score: 1

kde x GNOME
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 15:41 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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Linus use OS Suse?
Gnome in Suse is.. no good

but exist others distros very nice with Gnome. I prefer Ubuntu.

Look the Ranking - Ubuntu is the first:
<a href="http://distrowatch.com/">Distrowatch

Reply Score: 0

ok/canel
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 17:37 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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the only option I really want from Gnome is some checkbox to switch OK & Cancel. ONLY THAT! You can hide every other option form me but give me this!

Reply Score: 0

FINALY SOMEONE TOLD THE RIGHT THING....
by Anonymous on Wed 14th Dec 2005 18:30 UTC
Anonymous
Member since:
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I use linux since 1999, and i confess my favorite window manager is a windowmaker... but i agree, the gnome is very bad... as also kde contain bugs as you wish.... In my opinion linux doesn´t grew for final users just because it don´t have yet a interface for this users..... Kde and gnome it´s for me the same thing, but kde is better.... no doubt.....

Reply Score: 0

I use KDE
by halfmanhalfamazing on Wed 14th Dec 2005 19:50 UTC
halfmanhalfamazing
Member since:
2005-07-23

I'm on Linus' side!

(though I think GNOME has a rather exceptional DE)

Reply Score: 1

575
by halfmanhalfamazing on Wed 14th Dec 2005 19:51 UTC
halfmanhalfamazing
Member since:
2005-07-23

Post 575 WHOHOO!

Reply Score: 1

gnome in Slackware
by amaze_9 on Wed 14th Dec 2005 22:11 UTC
amaze_9
Member since:
2005-11-12

um...

Gnome got dropped from Slackware linux because it was, well, it sort of meddled in different bits of the system and stuff.

It simply installs into /opt/kde and yeah, thats about it, plus ~/.kde

Gnome must be a lot harder to build/maintain for distro packages (I think this is part of the reason it got dropped from Slackware)

I gave GNOME and KDE a real-life perforance test a while ago.

I installed them both from Slackware 10.0 onto my