OSNews

I selected votes for both catagories and pressed vote on the
linux box. Linux box changed to show votes, wm box went back
to its default (kde selected). I pressed vote just as I
noticed the blunder.

Cancel one vote for kde and change it to XFce.

Maybe 2 more questions to add to your favourite distro, & desktop.

How many distros & desktops it took to get to this setup?

Thats what I like about BeOS, Windows & Mac, generally one (maybe 2) main choices on the menu then customise it to heaven.

I have so many Linux distro CDs, only the RH continues to be around, if I tried a few more recent arrivals, in a few yrs it will still be RH. So I voted for RH, thats the only thing I will find at work beside Suns & W2K.

Where are the "they all suck" options?

Gentoo is what Linux should be.

Compiling your entire OS from source is something you cannot do with Windows, no matter how hard you try. Linux needs to move in a different direction from Windows, offering plums that Windows can't match. Gentoo's brilliant portage system is something that Windows doesn't have and could never have.

I've tried many other Linux distros and have always ended up disappointed and disillusioned. While I remain dual-booted, with Gentoo on my system I find that I actually boot into it because I want to, not just because I want to justify having spent so much time installing a Linux.

Come on, admit Linux is shit.. just as Windows is shit. Do the right thing and start supporting and developing for OpenBeOS.

Well, I've just lied on your poll because I didn't spot that the right hand forms resets itself when you submit on the left hand form. My error.

HCI suggestion: don't offer a default on a multichoice response box.

as a freebsd user, you guys left me no choice than other. how crap is that for a poll.

as a freebsd user, you guys left me no choice than other
How surprising when the title of the poll stats "A quick poll on Linux..." ;-)

Come on, admit Linux is shit.. just as Windows is shit. Do the right thing and start supporting and developing for OpenBeOS.
Like you do? Wouldn't be to good of a reputation for OBOS devs to be flaming trolls...

Troll? Just stating the facts Jack. If you don't agree it's shit, I can only imagine you've never used a decent OS like AmigaOS or BeOS. There can be no other explanation, except perhaps having a low IQ.

Heck, I even made an attempt to port Qt and Konqueror to BeOS, and that was easier than configuring X11 under Linux.

Couldn't you pull an "ABrowse" for BeOS then? Would be great (BBrowse?)


DRI is a hassle (as is OpenGL).

Uncomment DRI and GLX under modules in XF86Config.


Fonts are a hassle.

There are two font packages needed, xfonts-75dpi and xfonts-base. Install them and X will automatically find them. In most dists (read: all I know) you don't need to install the X components manually anyway.


Toggling resolutions is a hassle.

Ctrl+Alt+'+' steps up a resolution, Ctrl+Alt+'-' steps down.


There is no drag-n-drop.

KDE and GNOME and Roxer all supports the standard XDND (X Drag-N-Drop) protocol.


Configuration scripts live everywhere, not where you'd expect them to live.

/etc


How many ways can you say dependancy hell. Its a friggin nightmare.

Give me ONE example of how Linux is a dependency hell!?

Do I have to use Linux? I rather stay in my FreeBSD server, Win/Be desktop world. (Who needs X when you got BASH?)

(I prefer FreeBSD, but I don't dislike Linux.)

Well, FreeBSD is not exactly a linux distro, the quesiton should perhaps have been 'What's your favorite *nix os/distro?'

Debian is my favorite distro, but I would chose FreeBSD over linux any day of the week. Same goes for Gnome over kde. But hey, thats just me.

well, my 486mhz uses that
linux on a floppy, no configuration hassle get it at http://www.bbiagent.net
no need for a GUI on a pc without even a keyboard or a screen

Server and desktop are completely different. The poll should make the distinction.

linux is a kernel, a great monolithic kernel.
the X window system is great
the GNOME or the KDE or GNUStep or Enlightenment are quite good.

AmigaOS and BeOS were good...
you can say something about OS4 when it is out, anyway seems that you are just a dumb troll that write from what he read on BeOS/Amiga lover sites...

I'm using 3 machines
work : first a pc (pIII 500) running redhat 6.2 plus gnome1.4 with windowmaker
home : a pc (celeron 450) running mandrake 8.0 plus gnome 1.4 and windows maker too (sometimes I switch to enlightenment, I like its pager)
and on my powerbook, i'm running linuxppc 2K plus Windows maker
(not gnome, I got only 48 meg)

so am i untrustable ?
look at the screen shots below :
http://www.loria.fr/~seddah/unofficial/screen.jpg
an old one running helix gnome 1.0 and windows maker

http://www.loria.fr/~seddah/unofficial/screen1.jpg
the actual one....

>So that would be "none" and "other" then ;-)

That's how I voted!


Jeff

If you are going to be mainly using text terminals, you can get by without a window manager. Here is how I used to have my system setup just using .xinitrc:

http://www.jeffreyf.net/screenshot01.jpg

Basically, it is an Xterm, a transparent ATerm running mpg123, Oclock, and Xbiff.

You can also get the same effect with twm by turning off titles on all windows, turning on random window placement, and setting boarders to zero pixels. (The advantage to this is that you can move and resize windows, should you need to.)

I votes Gnome/Mandrake. Gnome 2 is shaping up so nicly.

Anyways I don't trush the poll results. Once its been tampered with... you just never know.

I am using Mozilla1.0 and j2re1.4.1, but this poll will not work for me. There is no "vote" or "submit" or like button to do that.

I'm using Mandrake and amiwm window manager, even though I haven't booted into Linux for awhile.

I keep saying I'm going to ditch Win98, but... it just works so I keep it.

I use Caldera, have been since eDesktop2.4. Now to 3.1.1
and I like xfce. Use some kde apps, but darn few.

Hey, I was just thinking about QNX and wanted to say that photon is far superior to X (along with just about every other GUI).

Really, I think photon is a great environment. It's fast, easy to use, and it looks pretty nice.

Being through several distros the last few years (quite a lot of RedHat-based stuff, SuSE, Stampede and a long time with Slackware), I ended up using Debian Sid on my machines now, given that this distro just perfectly fits to what I need now (even though it was a choice by licence, seeing vrms as one of the _most important_ Debian packages ). Anyhow, then and now I have been using XFCE, since it works reliably and fast on all of my machines, it has a couple of small yet immensely powerful tools inside (xftree, xfsamba, xfdiff), it's completely bloat-free and the XFCE mailing list guys are really kind persons and very helpful in case of any problems with this package. That's how it should be... keep up the good work.

>wanted to say that photon is far superior to
>X (along with just about every other GUI).

I agree with you. This probably won't change in the near future, as coding a replacement for X would probably take a considerable amount of work.

I think, however, that the XFree86 project is doing a good job of improving X and should be commended for their work.

Why does everything have to to turn into a 'mine is bigger than yours'-discussion here (and just about everywhere else on the net)? Why is it so important to tell other people that they use what in _your_ opinion is inferior.

One thing is trying to help people, another is arguing back and forth about matters which are completely subjective: "Linux sucks ass, AmigaOS and BeOS rulez 4ever!!!" or "Windows sucks ass, Bill Gates is a goat and Linus is The One True God!!!".

If you want to discuss the merits of things like window managers, operating systems, computer hardware or whatever, by all means do so. But at least try and do it from a technical standpoint, or a feature list or some other view which can actually be evaluted more objectively than some personal opinion (or should I say religion?).

Personally, I use Gnome 2 and have done so for a while. Before that I used Gnome 1.4 and before that fvwm2. Fvwm2 and sawfish are the only window managers which lets me navigate my desktop in two dimensions (with viewports) without wrapping around the edges. It is an important part of how I work with my computers so it is an important feature for me when evaluating window managers. I never really liked KDE, it is a bit too flashy for my taste, just like OS X is too flashy. Too bright colours, too distracting. My Gnome setup is all greys with a dash of blue in the title bar of the active window.

As for Linux distribution, Debian is definitely my choice. Contrary to what people say, I found it surprisingly easy to install. It was the first OS I ever installed whatsoever and I had a running system in a few hours. Since then it's just been a lovely experience. It is so low maintenance. Install and forget about it. I tried Gentoo to see what all the fuss is about once. While the idea of having optimized builds appeals to me, writing all configuration files by hand is just way too much hassle for me compared to the slickness of Debian. If I had a month to spare, I would probably try to set up a source based computer just for the learning experience. Until that happens, though, I will harvest the fruits of the community's efforts.

Thanks to all who have helped provide the software I use every day. You guys and gals rock.

FVWM is the best window manager after you have taken the time to configure it.

I read someone say that ion was totaly unintuitive, and yes, i do have to agree, but once you DO figure it out and configure it like you want, it simply stands above all others. Sure it's not flashy, and has nothing close to purdy animations, nor can you minimize apps, but what you can do, is have instant access to any app within such a short period of time. I hate having to reach for the mouse, my hands are on the keyboard, and thats how i like it, doing alt+2 for the web, alt+3 for my mail, its just wonderful.

I used to harass my friend cause he used ion, and i thought it was way too ugly, then i gave it a whirl for fun.

> FVWM is the best window manager after you have taken the time to configure it.

Yep, it sure is.
And the concept of window managers is in itself one of the things that make X so great (IMHO)

Where's FreeBSD?? I voted None, coz I will not put FreeBSD under "Other Linux".

Amen! I *love* ion. Unlike a lot of Leenucks h4x0rz, I don't mind using the mouse at all. However, I don't like switching between kb and mouse. Ion is so keyboard navigatable, and everything is right there. However, I've found it only really works well when I'm running on a higher res- 1152x864 at the lowest. My iBook only does 1024x768, so I've been using pwm. I think I've give it a whirl again though, maybe try to find some smaller but nice looking fonts so i can fit it all on the screen at the same time.

> Heck, I even made an attempt to port Qt and Konqueror to
> BeOS, and that was easier than configuring X11 under Linux.

Uhh. If it was an attempt, I assume you didn't finish it. If it was so easy, why hasn't anyone done it, while millions of working X11 configurations have been completed under Linux?

Anyone here use GNUstep as much as they can for their desktop needs? Last I used it a lot was right before I switched to OpenStep back in '99. Didn't do much back then, but at least I had a NeXTSTEP-like file manager. From an end-user's POV, what is it like these days? Would it be worth it for me to suffer trecherous install?

Aaron

I love ion. But there's no way I'd say that it's easy to use. Ion's strengths aren't with the kinds of people that get confused by anything but KDE. It's not a bad thing to be that kind of person. However, for people accustomed to having labels and buttons to bring about action in the GUI, Ion is not your thing. On the other hand, if you find those things redundant, and configure ion the way you want it (or let it configure you with the default config), it can really help you work faster with the computer.

once again kde is leading 3:1 over gnome.

I say amen to your remarks, jbmadsen!

To me, the big thing the poll shows is KDE/Gnome. And I mean that especially because there are obviously many people who read OS News and took the poll, but don't usually post. So, the vast majority of poll takers are using desktop enviroments that are the ones that have the most familiarity.

Having said that, I am wondering why, between those two environments, KDE has such a huge lead over Gnome, especially when so many distros offer both and you can switch back and forth? Is it, again, familiarty? Because sticking with KDE and all the "K" apps gives people a feeling of a more consistent and easier to understand user experience? Or, are there other reasons?

For what I have seen selling computers the last few years, there are way less people getting started with a computer based on a GNU/Linux environment than people actually migrating to GNU/Linux from whichever version of Microsoft(R) Windows(R) they were in a special way forced to pay for when initially buying their computer at some shopping mall. Given that, I guess it's a good way to have GUIs that on one side look familiar to those persons and, on the other side, clearly show that, no matter how they look, they're working on top of an operating system completely _different_ to what those people used to mess around with, before. From that point of view, I guess that especially KDE helps a lot Windoze people to get into GNU/Linux in an easy (and hopefully fast) way. If they just want their work to be done with it - fine. If they want to learn more about the system and everything connected to it, perhaps one day they will find some GUI that fits even more to what they want / need. Only thing I would state about this is that, sadly, some distributors by now are starting to be quite selective about which GUIs are bundled with their distributions, which things are set up in a way to work with the distribution itself and which not (seeing this, IMHO XFCE for example works best with the menu system used in Debian), thus at least sort of narrowing the users freedom to choose which GUI they want to get started with. Perhaps we should get off some "KDE is _the_ standard GNU/Linux desktop" attitudes towards something more liberal, something also closer to the GNU/Linux philosophy of freedom and choice.

Ahhhhh,
After voting for Mandrake as my distribution and Fluxbox as WM, I clicked vote on the left which registered "Mandrake" correctly. Then I clicked vote on the right and saw (to late) that it had reset itself to KDE. Nooo I do not use KDE.

Thanks to those who are commenting on Gnome 2. I will give Gnome 2 a try once it reaches NetBSD's pkgsrc.

I am, however, a little surprised more people are not using Sawfish by itself. I think that it is a pretty good wm and I really like the microgui theme. It is a bit big but since I already install Gimp and Mozilla, I have most of Sawfish's dependencies installed anyway.

(Note: OpenMotif's mwm isn't bad either but it seems to have a problem with my transparent ATerm windows where twm & Sawfish do not.)

Yes, for the people who want to laugh at gentoo for being easy to use, try Linux From Scratch ( http://www.linuxfromscratch.org ). Make your own distro. You won't regret it.

If we ignore the traditional location of "Other" and "None" within the polls, it's interesting to note that the popularity of each choice tends to match its location within the poll (i.e. the choices that appear earlier in the list tend to draw the most votes). Although this was probably done on purpose, it might have been better had the order of choices been alphabetized or randomized each time.

More than one poster has mistakenly voted for KDE due to the way the poll resets. I have to wonder how different the results would be if the first choice had been "None" for both polls.

As far as my choices go, I voted none/other. I've been using the same window manager for the last 8-9 years - fvwm. On occasion I tried others - CDE, Afterstep, Gnome/Enlightenment, a slew of the precursors to fvwm. Other than some child window focus issues with fvwm, I've yet to find any features of the newer packages all that useful. I use very few X applications (terminal, editor, web browser, clock and the occasional CD or MP3 player), all of which are developed independently of the window manager or X environment. fvwm is fast and small and doesn't come with lots of extra cruft; this is why I use it.

This article prompted me to look at the web pages for some of these window managers, particularly at their screenshots. Almost universally, these screenshots looked like something I would hang on a wall, rather than something I would work on. Too much stuff, too many colors, too much glitz. Admittedly screenshots don't tell the whole story; the usability angle is something that is best discovered first-hand. Still, I have seen very few people tell why they prefer one window manager over another, what makes one better than the other. The exception to this is ion, which I'll have to try out some day. It's probably too late but I'd encourage more of you to say why you prefer one over another.

Near as I can tell (based on the June 16 story on OSNews), the main complaint people have against fvwm is that it's ugly. From this, it follows that the main benefit of the newer WMs/X environments is that they're pretty. A secondary complaint was that the older WMs (including fvwm) are harder to configure. This I'm willing to concede, but after 8+ years it's no longer an issue for me. So, other than this, is there a reason why fvwm and its ilk are so bad?

It's interesting to see how many people found the design of the poll page confusing -- especially when you consider how often people in these forums dismiss usability in GUIs as hand-holding for newbies.

As a Macintosh user, I probably don't have the right to an opinion on this matter, but I've played around enough with XDarwin to wonder how you Linux users put up with these wretched interfaces. At best -- Gnome with Nautilus, say -- they give you a level of functionality almost equal to Mac System 7 or Windows 95. Mostly, X window managers seem baroquely overdecorated without adding function. Out of the WMs I've gotten to work on my Mac, IceWM seems the nicest for lightness and usability. Gnome and KDE are lumbering monsters.

I love the concept of Linux, and I'm amazed at how far and how fast it's developed within the last couple of years, but I'm honeslty quite appalled that all of the window managers I've used (I've tried every one that comes with the distros I've tried out) end up looking and feeling an awful lot like Windows Explorer- which is the main reason I ran screaming from Microsoft. I need an intuitive, useable GUI that's fully functional- which is why I use OS X for my web development needs.

I've tried several PPC distros- Yellow Dog, Red Hat, Debian, MKLinux.... anything with a boot CD available, I've fired up and tried out at some point- usually on a spare machine I'm not using (which coincidentally is way below top of the line- as a consequence, most of the stuff is sluggish, to put it mildly....). Out of all of them, Debian seems by far the coolest and most useable underneath.... but every distro I've used gets canned with a wet splatting noise when it hits the glass ceiling of gui useability- for a Mac user, it's just not there.

Given the strides I've seen taken with OSS in the past few years, I'm certain that something will come along that kicks ass in terms of "being better than explorer", as opposed to "being prettier".

> why there is no freebsd option?

Because this is a linux poll. Stupid.

> Why there is a default radio button checked?

Because I can't control that part. It comes from the engine, that we pull out from that server via javascript. For the first version of the poll, before I switrched to js, it did not have a default checking.

> I can't use it with Mozilla 1.0.

I can. Sorry, if people were more honest, you wouldn't have to go through this now. Use another browser if yours is buggered.

Since no one has said it yet, go Enlightenment!

As I understand it, X was specifically designed to support a wide varity of interface toolkits. (Readers: please correct me if I am wrong about this!) Thus, you end up running apps designed for a particular toolkit along with a windows manager designed on another. It creates an interface mish-mash that I can see some people disliking.

I mainly run a mix of GTKed software, mainly Mozilla, Gimp, and Sawfish. It looks pretty good. (I suppose that using a common toolkit will do this for you.)

Linux poll...

yeah, it resets to KDE everytime when you vote for OS, which i think is going to be the main cause for the huge KDE/Gnome difference.

not shocking, really.

Don't be silly. It does not reset to anything! It is just the default choice, just because it is the first option. This is how this poll engine works. I did not write it.
Each time you vote for the OS, this page reloads. It is just that you hadn't notice that the KDE option was already set, but when you vote for the Linux poll, it does NOT send any data for the X11 poll.

You REALLY have no idea how forms work, don't you?? Did you bother to "view source" to see that this is not the case?

KDE is indeed first, because it was voted most, not because each time you vote for the Linux poll, the X11 also get voted automatically.

GET A GRIP people. You are really driving me crazy around here. Use your heads damn it.

@Eugenia

agreed

well technically, i didn't have a problem with it. i noted they were different forms, and used them separately as they are designed to and voted for what i wanted.

but from the people bitching on comments, it didn't take a rocket scientist to figure out they made their selections at the same time, and clicked vote under each with out noting the page refreshes, and sets defaults.

> Each time you vote for the OS, this page reloads. It is >just that you hadn't
> notice that the KDE option was already set, but when you >vote for the Linux
> poll, it does NOT send any data for the X11 poll.

right, my exact point. the user of the site (ie the ones complaining it voted for KDE when it wasn't what they wanted.) did not note this.

i am aware no data goes from the second field when you click vote for the linux dist; that isn't the complaint. the complaint is that of UI.
two votes, both visible on the same page side by side, click vote on one, the pages refreshes, select again, and click vote again.

that is the design.

some assumed (without looking. which i hate.) that they selected at the same time, clicked vote, their previous selection would remain intact, click vote again.

the tendency to click click click is high on webapps.

>You REALLY have no idea how forms work, don't you?? Did you >bother to "view
> source" to see that this is not the case?

oh no, i do, i assure you. but i am willing to bet others do not, nor thought about "checking the source" of a simple web poll. just assumed it was intuitive... and were wrong.

> KDE is indeed first, because it was voted most,

i am sure it was voted most...

> GET A GRIP people. You are really driving me crazy around >here. Use your
> heads damn it. >:

oh i would agree. people taking a cursory glance at something and racing through really to annoy me to tears.

the getting forbidden errors from browsers with no java-script enabled to use a java-script poll... well that's a bit daft, isn't it?

>Don't be silly. It does not reset to anything! It is just >the default
> choice, just because it is the first option.

right. but if people clicked their votes at the same time, and clicked vote, then vote.

which is where the complaint comes from.

gearing to the lowest common denominator is a bit of a drag, don't you agree?

i think Vonnegut had something to say on this point...

/me adjusts his thick spectacles and absurd amount of chains.


On Wed, 2002-07-03 at 12:20, Eugenia Loli-Queru wrote:
> Don't be silly. It does not reset to anything! It is just the default
> choice, just because it is the first option. This is how this poll engine
> works. I did not write it.
> Each time you vote for the OS, this page reloads. It is just that you hadn't
> notice that the KDE option was already set, but when you vote for the Linux
> poll, it does NOT send any data for the X11 poll.
>
> You REALLY have no idea how forms work, don't you?? Did you bother to "view
> source" to see that this is not the case?
>
> KDE is indeed first, because it was voted most, not because each time you
> vote for the Linux poll, the X11 also get voted automatically.
>
> GET A GRIP people. You are really driving me crazy around here. Use your
> heads damn it. >:(
>
> Eugenia
>
> ---------------------------
> Editor-in-Chief at http://www.OSNews.com
--

i've always liked the minimalist of olvwm.

I have just added a note on the story.

Part of the fun of Linux is not being locked into any particular configuration or distribution. I like switching to different window managers and seeing what they're like. Some are dramatically different, some aren't.
For the most part, though, I use WindowMaker...on FreeBSD. Why? Because I like how WindowMaker provides a relatively easy to use GUI configuration process. I especially like not having to modify configuration scripts just to get my menus set up they way I want them.

Oh, and I didn't have any trouble with the poll. I set both choices, hit one vote button, realized that the other one still needed to be voted on, and hit the other vote button. Not obvious just from looking at it, but clear enough when you try it.

RevAaron >> it only really works well when I'm running on a higher res- 1152x864 at the lowest

Yep! This is something few people realize: developers generally are given (or can afford) first-class machines with big screens. We mere mortals living in poorer countries sometimes must make do with a 14-inch keyhole and small memory machines or antique video cards with 1 or 2MB video RAM.

I can use 1024x768 at 16bpp or 800x600 at 32bpp. For performance reasons, I use 832x624 at 16bpp. This forces the occurrence of overlapping windows. Period.

Ion, larswm et al. get less fun. Also, window maker with has gigantic icons and applets, I can't stand the real-state they rob. Even XFCE in its smallest size still consumes much screen. The best options, IMHO, are icewm and blackbox, but XFCE is still more convenient in other fronts.

A *great* source for fonts is the Linux Font Project ( http://dreamer.nitro.dk/linux/lfp/ ). I particularly suggest two monospaced fonts: "nexus", very small and clear and "gamow", very clear (try it as a menu font for applications, e.g., Opera -- it's beautiful).

Honestly, I see little purpose in jumping to a bloated desktop like KDE or Gnome when I can get most of the functionality with ROX. Likewise, Blackbox and IceWM provide excellent, yet fast, window managing. BlackBox is great if you like minimality (why use with Ion? BB doesn't screw up overlapping windows, yet still gives you great keyboard-based control) and IceWM gives you the Win9X/KDE/Gnome bar/feel with little resource consumption.

I have been toggling between E17 and E16. If they would just port a few apps to E17 I will be there full time. As for accepting patchs ... I maintain the E17 packages for my dist and am coding on a tn5250 emulater. Thats enough for me right now.

I have SuSE Linux 7.3 Pro and liked it, so I voted for that, even though I have started to use FreeBSD for the last few weeks or so. When I was using SuSE I used KDE, though I'd looked at other window managers. When I grabbed FreeBSD due to my dial-up modem I grabbed the mini-ISO, which lacked X, then downloaded X from ports (if you're familiar with Gentoo it's what inspired their Portage system), and fvwm2; the latter in hopes of getting something useable for X quick before I grabbed a "real" desktop environment. However, I was surprised: I liked the FreeBSD default configuration of fvwm2, it was much nicer than SuSE's which made it look like a weird toy. So I'm still using it, though I'm thinking of trying out a more fancy wm like the latest Windowmaker, GNOME2, and KDE3 to play with. (I'm CVSuping my ports tree now to the latest, "building world" as I write. :-) )

FreeBSD + Fluxbox .. Yum :p Sometimes I play in KDE when I'm feeling lazy...