Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 16th Jan 2006 22:08 UTC, submitted by Peter Leese
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Ubuntu Dapper Drake Flight CD3 has been released. I haven't received the email on ubuntu-devel yet, but the .iso files appear to be up (Ubuntu | Kubuntu). Improvements in this release include an updated installer CD boot splash, X11R7, GNOME 2.13.4, improved and simplified menus, new default desktop panel configuration, some new applications such as XChat-GNOME, a faster live CD, live CD persistence, and more. In addition to software improvements, Launchpad is now officially open for business for all bug tracking.
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Launchpad?
by manmist on Mon 16th Jan 2006 23:55 UTC
manmist
Member since:
2005-12-18

Why is a supposedly community project like this solely managed by a single commercial organisation like Canonical?. Even the foundation is entirely owned and operated by them with no published bylawys or community authority.

They havent contributed anything fundamental besides spending a wealthy man's money on free CD's and repackaging a very small section of Debian which is supported by Canonical. The "universe" repository is not formally supported by Ubuntu or Canonical. They still have no business plan and bleeding money every single day and havent made a profit anywhere.

Now worse, they decide to use proprietary systems such as Launchpad, Rosetta and Malone replacing all their previous open source infrastructure. Everything gets decided by a single dictator like Mark shuttleworth who decides single handedly to add custom changes to GNOME. The kernel has tons of patches for experimental drivers.

http://www.livejournal.com/users/kernelslacker/30664.html

They originally started off as a restricted sub set of Debian for desktops. Now they start doing all the architectures and launch a server edition and what not?. Why not be entirely forthcoming with your intentions in the first place?

Where exactly is the community in this project?. How is this project sustainable?. I am puzzled

Reply Score: 1

RE: Launchpad?
by dean_fry on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:19 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
dean_fry Member since:
2005-07-06

proprietary here...prorietary there...well i don't care. i am exited about the new flight cd and its changes. ubuntu is going in the right direction...my opinion.

cheers

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Launchpad?
by mkools on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Launchpad?"
mkools Member since:
2005-10-11

Yes it really is!! Nice to have X11R7 finally on board, can't wait to testdrive it's new features ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Launchpad?
by jaylaa on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:54 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
jaylaa Member since:
2006-01-17

If you followed the userlists and forums you'd see that everything is not managed by a single commercial entity. Volunteer developers have input. You say so yourself that the Universe repository is not officially maintained by Canonical. Well, there's your community support. So in your first paragraph volunteer devs are good and in your second they are bad?

And Mark hardly decides everything. Those custom changes to GNOME are from top GNOME developers who also happen to work for Canonical. Those changes would be happening to GNOME whether Ubuntu was around or not. It just seems like they are from Ubuntu because Ubuntu gets them first.

Ubuntu hasn't contributed anything? As others have pointed out to naysayers like you, Debian has many patches and packages from Ubuntu. It was Ubuntu developers that brought xorg to the Debian world. And Just because you haven't heard of them making money doesn't mean they aren't. Mark has already mentioned gaining support contracts from businesses.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"Volunteer developers have input. You say so yourself that the Universe repository is not officially maintained by Canonical. Well, there's your community support. So in your first paragraph volunteer devs are good and in your second they are bad?"

You got exactly right. Volunteer developers only have input. Canonical developers have the FINAL decisions. Do the community have ANY say in things that go into Ubuntu cd's. NOPE

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by bornagainenguin on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

You got exactly right. Volunteer developers only have input. Canonical developers have the FINAL decisions. Do the community have ANY say in things that go into Ubuntu cd's. NOPE

...and this is different from other distros ....How exactly?

.....


Yeah. I thought so. That said there's nothing to stop you from making your own distro if that bothers you. Let us know when you're ready to release, mkay?

---bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:49 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"...and this is different from other distros ....How exactly? "

Not every "community project" has Canonical developers having the FINAL say on everything.

" That said there's nothing to stop you from making your own distro if that bothers you. "

Very silly argument. Not everyone wants to make a distribution. Next time you complain about your car, I will make sure I ask you to build your own. Why do you have a bugzilla at all then. eh?

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Launchpad?
by bornagainenguin on Tue 17th Jan 2006 02:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Launchpad?"
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

"...and this is different from other distros ....How exactly? "

Not every "community project" has Canonical developers having the FINAL say on everything.

Yeah, you're right there.... Fedora has the Red Hat Developers making the FINAL call. OpenSUSE has Novell engineers making the FINAL say on things. And Debian has its Officers making the FINAL decision.

Are any of these sopmehow less 'community' projects?

" That said there's nothing to stop you from making your own distro if that bothers you. "

Very silly argument. Not everyone wants to make a distribution.

No, not really. That's hardly a silly argument at all once you put it into context. Your complaint was that Ubuntu wasn't open enough because Canonical had the final say on what went into their distro. So in that case either you want to contribute or you're just making noise. Either one or the other. If you want to contribute then do so. If you don't like the way Ubuntu is going or if they refuse to use whatever it is you've contributed then fork it and start your own. If you're just here to whine and cause problems then please go away.

One way or another. Now do you actually have anything to contribute or would you like some cheese with that whine?

--bornagainpenguin

Edited 2006-01-17 02:10

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 02:25 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"
Yeah, you're right there.... Fedora has the Red Hat Developers making the FINAL call. OpenSUSE has Novell engineers making the FINAL say on things. And Debian has its Officers making the FINAL decision. "

Dude. Fedora is now managed by a non-profit entity with a community board of members making decisions

http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Foundation.

Fedora Extras project for example is managed by a non-Red Hat community member who has the FINAL say in the repository decisions.

"
No, not really. That's hardly a silly argument at all once you put it into context. Your complaint was that Ubuntu wasn't open enough because Canonical had the final say on what went into their distro. So in that case either you want to contribute or you're just making noise."

If it's just their distro, then there is no community. They can't say ubuntu is free for everyone and then include proprietary components. Be truthful and honest first.



"
One way or another. Now do you actually have anything to contribute or would you like some cheese with that whine? "

Criticims are not whining. They are contributions.

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Launchpad?
by Dekkard on Tue 17th Jan 2006 04:29 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Launchpad?"
Dekkard Member since:
2006-01-07

i disagree. , but while you are at it you should complain that while there are peple who contribute to the linux kernel, it is up to the kernal maintainers weather or not their patches get admited to the kernel tree....
You should be thankfull, if you use ubuntu, that Mr. Shuttleworth was gracious to allow people who are contributing to a very worthwile distribution to actually get PAID by canonical Ltd. for doing so. If you have done any research at all you would know that Marc was a debian hacker way back in the day. He is familiar with project leadership and management. On top of that all he is a pretty smart guy. But if you aren't happy with his way of doing things. you should let him know. I'm sure that he would be more than willing to take your advice.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: Launchpad?
by jaboua on Tue 17th Jan 2006 14:14 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Launchpad?"
jaboua Member since:
2005-09-08

"Fedora Extras project for example is managed by a non-Red Hat community member who has the FINAL say in the repository decisions."

How is the "Universe" respiratory any different?

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Launchpad?
by l3v1 on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Launchpad?"
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

Very silly argument. Not everyone wants to make a distribution.

Sorry, but I have to call bullshit on this. Every time one installs a debian (or ubuntu) or gentoo or slack or whetever, you install you own distro from the package base. Why ? Because in the normal linux world install doesn't always (thenkfully) mean putting in a disk and installing 405 gigs of stuff and you're done. One of my most beloved properties of debian (or slack, or gentoo, or ... insert to your liking) was/is that in a few minutes youhave a clean base install from where you make your system consists of what you wish not the other way around (i.e. use what you get).

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:37 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"Very silly argument. Not everyone wants to make a distribution.

Sorry, but I have to call bullshit on this."

Ubuntu fans. Stop screaming. There is a difference between package customisation and creating your own distribution. learn those.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by rm6990 on Tue 17th Jan 2006 06:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

You got exactly right. Volunteer developers only have input. Canonical developers have the FINAL decisions. Do the community have ANY say in things that go into Ubuntu cd's. NOPE

Well friggin duh. Is Red Hat involved with the community? I'd say, considering they pay some of the top GCC and Kernel devs, contribute a lot to Gnome and Mozilla, and numerous other projects. Do they have the final say for what goes into Red Hat Enterprise Linux? Of course they do, because it is a product of theirs. Until they spun off the Fedora Foundation, they had this same level of control for Fedora too.

I suppose because the top kernel devs have the final say as to what goes in the official kernels available at kernel.org, Linux isn't a community project either? Can you submit your own bugfix which will get included in Linux if Linus Torvalds specifically says he doesn't want it (excluding forking of course)?

Just to let you know, you're making yourself look more like an idiot with every comment you post.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"Do they have the final say for what goes into Red Hat Enterprise Linux? "

Of course they do. It's Red Hat product. They dont claim it as a community project unlike Fedora which is, but Canonical is treating Ubuntu as a Canonical product and calling it a community release which is the problem here.


"Of course they do, because it is a product of theirs. Until they spun off the Fedora Foundation, they had this same level of control for Fedora too. "

Yes because now it is a community project unlike Ubuntu which merely claims to be one

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by John Blink on Tue 17th Jan 2006 08:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
John Blink Member since:
2005-10-11

Okay so what do you want in the distro?

I find it to be a great distro as it is. Very minimalistic. Just add what you need.

I find it to be much better than Fedora, and I have used that since the old RH7.x days when it was good. Fedora is not so good.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"Those custom changes to GNOME are from top GNOME developers who also happen to work for Canonical"

A couple of low work developers are not top ones by any means. Why modules in GNOME does Canonical work on? How many developers in total?. Compare that with Red Hat, Novell and Sun.

"Debian has many patches and packages from Ubuntu"

So. What major patches. What new projects?


"It was Ubuntu developers that brought xorg to the Debian world"

helping out in repackaging is not something worth talking about. What *code* contributions have they made. Name ANY new open source projects done by them.

Launchpad, Rosetta and Malone are completely proprietary.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by deadsexy on Tue 17th Jan 2006 05:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
deadsexy Member since:
2005-09-13

uhmmm, what is your exact problem?
i mean _besides_ being totally ignorant?
is there some evil going on if some devs decide to do what they wanna do? since when do they have to ask you or a community?

and if you werent that ignorant kid you are, you would have dl'ed flight 3 installed it and have had a look on the fine job they're doing.

get a life.

Reply Score: 0

v RE[4]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 05:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Launchpad?"
RE[5]: Launchpad?
by bornagainenguin on Tue 17th Jan 2006 12:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Launchpad?"
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Nope. They can call it the developer's playground instead of a community project if they dont want to listen to community. Call it a Dictator's hobbyist project run by a wealthy Mark Shuttleworth who other than "fixing" GNOME by including porn images, brown desktops, messing up nautilus filemanager and now the GNOME logout box in Ubuntu has proven himself to be a bad designer and he wont listen to everyone's plea to change the ugly ass theme.

This and other things you've said manmist lead me to believe you're either a sock puppet for a OSNews.com reader with too much time on his or her hands or you're a developer with the DCC suffering from sour grapes that Mark Shuttleworth has refused to join.

The fact you get offensive, what with the references to porn, comments on the brown desktop (why not say what you really mean wrt not liking brown?) and complaints about the nautilus filemanager... Obviously you've not used it because to be completely honest I love the new setup in Ubuntu's file manager. I actually miss it when I try other distros, and this is coming from someone who always turned off the spatial browsing in Nautilus before!

--bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"This and other things you've said manmist lead me to believe you're either a sock puppet for a OSNews.com reader with too much time on his or her hands or you're a developer with the DCC suffering from sour grapes that Mark Shuttleworth has refused to join. "

The repeated name calling from Ubuntu fans once again

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Launchpad?
by deadsexy on Tue 17th Jan 2006 20:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Launchpad?"
deadsexy Member since:
2005-09-13

manmist, your answer shows what i already expected: you're an ignorant kid.
what seperates me from you, is the fact, that i am no fanboy but an actual *user* of the software i'm talking about. you on the other hand have absolutely no clue at all, cause all you do is repeating propaganda found somewhere else.
so for example, the new logout dialogue is designed by someone outside of ubuntu. the brown, you are referring to, is at least consistent. head over to distrowatch, poke through the massive list of distros, surf to their websites and look at the screenshots they provide.

so to sum it up: talking to you is like talking to a brick wall, cause ou don't wanna hear whats really going on.

and i have to say it again: get a life.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by rm6990 on Tue 17th Jan 2006 06:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

A couple of low work developers are not top ones by any means. Why modules in GNOME does Canonical work on? How many developers in total?. Compare that with Red Hat, Novell and Sun.

*sighs* Please don't tell me you are seriously this stupid. Novell currently has 5500 employees world-wide, makes $200 million a quarter, and is a well established business. Red Hat currently has 1000 employees, makes almost $100 million a quarter, and is growing quite quickly.

Novell has somewhere in the range of $2 billion sitting in the bank right now. Red Hat has quite a bit itself (too lazy to look up the exact numbers right now).

Sun Microsystems, last I heard, has 30,000 employees world-wide.

99.9% of Ubuntu users don't pay them a dime, yet you have the nerve to get mad because they have less contributors than Novell, Red Hat or Sun? The company, including all administration, has around 30 employees. 30!!! That is approximately 3% of Red Hat's employees, 0.55% of Novell's employees, and 0.1% of Sun's employees. Have you bought anything from Canonical in the last year that would provide much needed funds so that they can hire all these devs (granted, not all of the other companies' employees are devs) that you seem to think they are obligated to supply to the community?

I'm done responding to you. I've decided you are a troll. You can't possibly be this stupid.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 06:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"*sighs* Please don't tell me you are seriously this stupid. Novell currently has 5500 employees world-wide, makes $200 million a quarter, and is a well established business. Red Hat currently has 1000 employees, makes almost $100 million a quarter, and is growing quite quickly. "

You know how many millions Mark shuttleworth has?. Here is a hint, its more than Red Hat's income. Now why hasnt he contribute anything near Red Hat?. Why is he investing his money on proprietary framework like Launchpad instead of contributing to open source projects. Its not like he is starting a business selling hats and tshirts to compliment the CD's unlike Red Hat. So what is his reason behind using proprietary frameworks and components in a supposedly free for all release?

"(granted, not all of the other companies' employees are devs) that you seem to think they are obligated to supply to the community? "

Nope. They arent but if they call it a community product "Linux for human beings" anyone?, then better be telling the truth. I expect honesty but maybe I wont get it from a hobbyist stuff from a wealthy person who calls himself a dictator - SABFDL or some such silly thing.


"I'm done responding to you. I've decided you are a troll. You can't possibly be this stupid.

I am presenting rationale and Ubuntu community is repeatedly indulging in name calling. IMO, the results speak for themselves.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Launchpad?
by Unbeliever on Tue 17th Jan 2006 07:14 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Launchpad?"
Unbeliever Member since:
2005-07-09

How about you find yourself a nice 'community' distro, install it, contribute patches and code to it, and be done with the trolling?

It's boring.

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 07:26 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"How about you find yourself a nice 'community' distro, install it, contribute patches and code to it, and be done with the trolling? "

Ubuntu fans cannot stop themselves from name calling I guess. I will continue to provide criticisms against a product which is being mismanaged. If you have any good answers against my critiques, then provide that instead of cheap name calling

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Launchpad?
by andrewg on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:26 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Launchpad?"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

I suppose Microsoft is also being mismanaged. I mean if wildly successful is your criteria for mismanagement then you are spot on.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by subterrific on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
subterrific Member since:
2005-07-10

"helping out in repackaging is not something worth talking about. What *code* contributions have they made. Name ANY new open source projects done by them."

the modular xorg 7.0 release was not "repackaged". it was the first modular release, there was a huge amount of packaging work to split xorg up and provide an upgrade path for users. daniel stone put a lot of work into it. he contributed a lot of code as well http://cia.navi.cx/stats/author/daniels

to name a few *new* open source projects by canonical:
bazaar-ng
update-manager
hwdb-gui
gnome-app-install

launchpad, rosetta, and malone are not proprietary, just unfinished and unreleased. the release milestones and features are available https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/ they are targeting a july 6th 1.0 release.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Launchpad?
by JonO on Tue 17th Jan 2006 12:43 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Launchpad?"
JonO Member since:
2005-09-23

It's amazing how posts like this, which should end the trolling and get everyone to shut up, are happily ignored.

You can never find a bucket of facts and truths big enough to put out flaming rhetoric on the internet.

On topic *gasp!*, I'm thinking Dapper Kubuntu or a future version of Kanotix might be for me. Usually I like a minimal OS with Fluxbox and a 2.4 kernel, but I've been playing with KDE lately and it's even better then I remember. ;) If you're looking for one big reason to like Ubuntu, you're going to be dissapointed. It's a culmination of small details that make it a nice distro.

If you're looking for a reason to dislike it, it's popular, and that seems to be enough for alot of people.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Launchpad?
by dodongo on Tue 17th Jan 2006 17:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Launchpad?"
dodongo Member since:
2005-12-07

"but I've been playing with KDE lately and it's even better then I remember."

Oh man, you're not kidding. Some of the stuff they're doing for KDE 4 sounds nutso-cool. I started using KDE when I first installed Linux (due to my SuSE persuasion), then switched to GNOME while using SuSE on accuont of the programs I was using (basically all GTK).

Now, I'm a happy Ubuntu user, contributing as I can, happy that I've found a distro that fits me really well, and I love (for the most part) what they're doing with GNOME. What I don't like, I can change.

And believe me, I'm going to change to KDE, if only for a bit, when the v.4 releases come out ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Launchpad?
by tikal26 on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:02 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
tikal26 Member since:
2005-11-12

Well I believe that everyone needs a leader that can steeer a project and have you ever beign in the ubuntu forums? they are amazing they area really a community. This projec tis definetly sustainable and a good testament are all the varaints that are popping out like kubuntu, xubunt, nubunu ,edubuntu and the server projects show how communty driven this project is. when ubuntu doesn't offer what the community wants ubuntu is open to including it and even supporting the new projects.

Edited 2006-01-17 01:05

Reply Score: 2

RE: Launchpad?
by thebluesgnr on Tue 17th Jan 2006 04:18 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

I agree with some of your points about Ubuntu which I'll list below.

- Mark Shuttleworth is a dictator, as he admits. I wouldn't have a problem with that if it wasn't for him making decisions in the default desktop, some of which are very broken (the "ubuntu-spatial" is a perfect example of a very bad decision made by a non UI designer person, and the log out dialog on the panel! being the latest one). I was actually happy when he announced the switch to KDE, but since his idea of putting the log out button on the panel since then I'm a little sad again.
Mark, if you're reading this: please don't ever force a decision on the desktop unless at least mpt agrees with you. You're qualified to make these decisions.

- The Ubuntu development model is similar to Fedora and openSUSE, with two exceptions:
1) Fedora and openSUSE only include free and open source software; Ubuntu adds proprietary software.

2) Fedora and openSUSE are used as the base for RHEL (Fedora) and SUSE, NLD, SLES (SUSE). Canonical on the other hand uses Ubuntu itself and not a derivative distro to support officially. One could argue that Ubuntu itself is a derivative (of Debian sid), but I'll not go there...

The similarity comes from that fact that Fedora, openSUSE and Ubuntu are basically controlled by Red Hat, Novell and Canonical, respectively. The 3 are trying to move to a more Debian-like model, but they're not there yet (and none of them plans to get fully there).

- Canonical contributes _far less_ to free software projects (Linux, X.org, GNOME, etc) than Red Hat and Novell. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's important to keep in mind. They have fewer developers and most of the work is done on Launchpad, which is proprietary software.

Don't misunderstand me, though. I'm generally happy with Ubuntu, it's just that nothing is perfect and these are my thoughts on the bad side of it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Launchpad?
by subterrific on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Launchpad?"
subterrific Member since:
2005-07-10

launchpad is not proprietary, just unreleased. they're targeting july 6th for a 1.0 release.

https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/

Reply Score: 1

RE: Launchpad?
by Windows Sucks on Tue 17th Jan 2006 07:10 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

If in the end the community does not like Ubuntu then people will igg it and move on to the next!

Simple as that, ether they will shoot themselves in the foot or everything will work out. But we have seen them come and seen them go!

Simple!

Reply Score: 0

RE: Launchpad?
by subterrific on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:54 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
subterrific Member since:
2005-07-10

"Where exactly is the community in this project?"

http://www.ubuntu.com/community

Reply Score: 1

RE: Launchpad?
by Jon Dough on Tue 17th Jan 2006 11:02 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
Jon Dough Member since:
2005-11-30

The remarkable thing about GNU/Linux is that you are not tied to any one distro! So, if you are dead set against the Ubuntu distro, move on to something else. You are free to do that.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Launchpad?
by valnar on Tue 17th Jan 2006 11:52 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
valnar Member since:
2006-01-17

I fail to understand why somebody who wants to make a distro can't be in complete control of it? Are you objecting because Mark Shuttleworth is "big" or rich, and therefore evil like Microsoft?

Because otherwise, you would have to argue about Warren and Mepis, or the developers of Knoppix, Kanotix, DSL, Puppy, etc. Some of those are single man distributions (I think...) who may or may not take input from anyone at their discretion.

-Robert

Reply Score: 1

RE: Launchpad?
by Lamego on Tue 17th Jan 2006 12:19 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
Lamego Member since:
2006-01-12

"Why is a supposedly community project like this solely managed by a single commercial organisation like Canonical?. Even the foundation is entirely owned and operated by them with no published bylawys or community authority. "

Community is not about managment, it is about participation, it is usual and acceptable to a company which financially supports a project to manage it, as long they have community oriented policies, which Ubuntu does.

"They havent contributed anything fundamental besides spending a wealthy man's money on free CD's and repackaging a very small section of Debian which is supported by Canonical. The "universe" repository is not formally supported by Ubuntu or Canonical. They still have no business plan and bleeding money every single day and havent made a profit anywhere. "

Maybe they didnt done a BIG think like some other big companies, but they did SMALL things which do matter for the big community which is using and supporting Ubuntu.

"They originally started off as a restricted sub set of Debian for desktops. Now they start doing all the architectures and launch a server edition and what not?. Why not be entirely forthcoming with your intentions in the first place? "

Do you know the word "evolution" ?

"Where exactly is the community in this project?. How is this project sustainable?. I am puzzled"

I could give a few urls but I guess you know how to google, It will save my typing time...

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 18:14 UTC in reply to "RE: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"
Community is not about managment, it is about participation, it is usual and acceptable to a company which financially supports a project to manage it, as long they have community oriented policies, which Ubuntu does"

Community as about management too. If management is not done by the community or community has no say in it how can you call it honestly a open project?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by ThawkTH on Wed 18th Jan 2006 01:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

You're using a different definition of open, I think.

Anyways, even if the development process isn't managed by the community, being Open Source, the code is eventually released and the community has the access and ability to work with, implement, and choose to modify it at will.

That's open.

Openness is not about getting your gratis software 4 free and being able to dictate how people run their own projects. That's childish and rather stupid.

Openness IS about freedom. You're free to ignore Ubuntu. You're free to create your own distro. You're free to remain completely silent. You're free to despise Ubuntu and Mark with every ounce of your being.

You're not, however, free to throw a childish troll session/temper tantrum because you don't agree and expect to be listened to and have EVERYONE agree with you.

Sincerely,

A proud consistent Kubuntu user with few complaints ;)

Reply Score: 1

Ubuntu **NOT** contributing?!? I call Bullsh-
by bornagainenguin on Tue 17th Jan 2006 12:41 UTC in reply to "Launchpad?"
bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

-it here! Really manmist, I should stop responding to you-- you make it too easy for me!

They havent contributed anything fundamental besides spending a wealthy man's money on free CD's and repackaging a very small section of Debian which is supported by Canonical. The "universe" repository is not formally supported by Ubuntu or Canonical. They still have no business plan and bleeding money every single day and havent made a profit anywhere.

I'd say this is a really BIG contribution! The free cds that Cannonical is handing out eventually make their way into the hands of people who have never heard of this 'Linux thing'! What's more, because the cds come in an attractive package and contains both a live-cd and an install cd more people than ever can see the power of Linux in action on their hardware without installing. And having seen and become familiar with Linux in this form it becomes even easier for them to imagine trying it out for 'real' by installing it themselves!

Say what you want about all the other distros, and IMHO they're all good and all have their own virtues, but when all is said and all is done even if Cannonical fails some two or three years from now and Ubuntu falls; Mark Shuttleworth will go down in Linux History as a man who brought Linux to the homes of everyday people. That is what 'Linux for Human Beings' is all about.

For better or for worse Ubuntu is the distribution that has pacakaged up the Gnome desktop and presented it in an attractive and usable manner for the average person who doesn't have the time to aquire the equivelence of a computer science degree. And they do it for free! And somehow for this you persecute them? This is somehow a crime for which you wish to destroy Ubuntu? If Jesus were around today you'd be trying to bust his ass for preaching without a license... come to think of it that's exactly what they got him on...

--bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 4

manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"
I'd say this is a really BIG contribution! The free cds that Cannonical is handing out eventually make their way into the hands of people who have never heard of this 'Linux thing'!"

Is it so? Order you your free cds from Fedora then. No big deal


http://www.redhat.com/magazine/014dec05/features/ambassadors/
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Ambassadors

Reply Score: 1

bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Well I clicked on the link and there was nothing I could see about getting any attractively packaged Fedora cds shipped to my place of residence. That's too bad because I actually like Fedora (although I notice a disturbing trend to only work well for me on odd releases.. funny that.) To be honest by lying and misrepresenting yourself like you just did doesn't do anything but damage the distro you apparently want to be an abassador for.

Strangely enough there was a link to something called 'talking points'
[ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Marketing/TalkingPoints ]

I begin to agree with others here-- you are just a kid with no one to talk to stirring up trouble to ease the boredom. Perhaps this might be a heretical concept but perhaps if you try to have honest conversation and debate your opinions sincerely you'd not only get the attention you want but people woul like you more. As it is now no one wants tot talk to a spammer; and by not being honest in your posts and simply cutting and pasting what you write from elsewhere all you're doing is wasting our time and your own.

It really is too bad though that you were lying on the Fedora cds... it could have saved me a few bucks and it would have been nice not having to wait until the Linux mags do an issue on Fedora to get a nicely labeled Distro DVD with a nice case. Or hgave to spend $40.00USD just for a copy of a 'free' distro bundled in a book. You could have ...ahhh never mind.

--bornagainpenguin (who will no longer be giving manmist's posts all that much attention)

Edited 2006-01-18 00:34

Reply Score: 1

manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"To be honest by lying and misrepresenting yourself like you just did doesn't do anything but damage the distro you apparently want to be an abassador for. "

Did I ever say I want be an ambassador for fedora. Not only do you indulge in repeated namecalling you also accuse and misrepresent me.

"it really is too bad though that you were lying on the Fedora cds... it could have saved me a few bucks and it would have been nice not having to wait until the Linux mags do an issue on Fedora to get a nicely labeled Distro DVD with a nice case"


Anyway since you are unable to find a link properly, I will spoon feed you that

http://fedoraproject.org/forms/AmbassadorForm.html

Dont play cheap tricks like that again

Reply Score: 2

bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Thanks for the link, manmist! I'm sorry for for not seeing the link for what it was the first time you posted it with all the others on the page.

I honestly did not realize that when Redhat Fedora said: "Use an online form to request material for distribution to the masses. Be sure to request it well in advance (at least one month), as shipping physical objects from A to B takes time." they were talking about a way to get Fedora shipped to your door.

Comapred with Ubuntu's "Shipit - Free CDs" link... are you sure Redhat Fedora wants people to order Fedora? They've certainly gone through some trouble to make the link as obtuse and counterintuitive as possible!

Anyway since you are unable to find a link properly, I will spoon feed you that

I apologize again for thinking you were just tossing a random link into the mix but when something is as obtusely written as that link is mistakes are bound to happen. I don't think the sarcasm and calling it spoon-feeding is necessary; to be honest, at first and second reading this looked like a link to order some magazines or pamplets not a way to get Fedora Dvds!

Any way I apologize to you manmist, and I'll do my best to tripple-check all the links you give me next time.

--bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 1

xorg
by fffffh on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:31 UTC
fffffh
Member since:
2006-01-04

xorg don't came in SID, from Ubuntu, bug free ready ?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Launchpad?
by de_wizze on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:37 UTC
de_wizze
Member since:
2005-10-31

I think there is value in having a central point of focus and direction, which can act as a broad funnel that is accommodating and accessible to many users.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Launchpad?
by manmist on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Launchpad?"
manmist Member since:
2005-12-18

"I think there is value in having a central point of focus and direction, which can act as a broad funnel that is accommodating and accessible to many users."

Bugzilla is already capability of using XML-RPC to interoperate between already open source bug tracking systems which is almost always bugzilla. I dont understand ubuntu's decision here at all.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Launchpad?
by subterrific on Tue 17th Jan 2006 10:13 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Launchpad?"
subterrific Member since:
2005-07-10

"Bugzilla is already capability of using XML-RPC to interoperate between already open source bug tracking systems which is almost always bugzilla. I dont understand ubuntu's decision here at all."

https://wiki.launchpad.canonical.com/WhatIsTheLaunchpad

after reading about launchpad a little, you'll understand that it is not just about shared bug tracking. it is about increasing productivity by making it easier for more people to contribute in a managed fashion. this includes the ability to branch code (bazaar-ng), translate into native languages (rosetta), and track patches, branches, and bugs across multiple distros (malone). bugzilla is great for bug tracking, but launchpad is something much more.

Reply Score: 2

Ubuntu rocks!!!
by paulo.bsf on Tue 17th Jan 2006 00:54 UTC
paulo.bsf
Member since:
2006-01-12

After cycling through Red Hat, Debian, SuSE, Mandrake / Mandriva, Slackware and Gentoo, I found the early realeases of Ubuntu and I never installed another distro.

It's the coolest distro out there and it's getting better in every release.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ubuntu rocks!!!
by Celerate on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:01 UTC in reply to "Ubuntu rocks!!!"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

I tried it a few times and inadvertently borked it accidentally trying to get good multimedia support. That was with Kubuntu and I did try the automatix tool. Has anyone else experienced this, or is it just a peculiarity that seems to reoccur only to me with the latest stable? I can't remember exactly what went wrong, it's been a while.

I'm looking forward to the next stable Kubuntu release, if I can get the extra multimedia support without breaking things I'll be happy to use it on desktops, if it'll work on my laptop then bye-bye windows :-) .

Besides those problems [Ku|Xu|U]buntu is one of the best distributions I've tried, and if I could just get it to work completely I don't think I'd be in distro limbo right now.

Reply Score: 1

Interesting
by Wrawrat on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:19 UTC
Wrawrat
Member since:
2005-06-30

How stable is the CD? Not asking perfect stability, but enough for warrant a download.

By the way, did they included Gnome Power Manager, fast user switching capacibilities and better support for remote folders (there is support, but I had a bad experience with SSH and Samba; WebDAV is okay)? Just curious. They're pretty much the only things I am really missing.

Reply Score: 1

Doesn't work for me
by eMagius on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:31 UTC
eMagius
Member since:
2005-07-06

Tried the Kubuntu Live CD a little while ago on a fairly standard laptop -- I experienced constant crashes, screeching sound coming from the speakers, no support for decent resolution on my LCD (1024x768 scaled to 1400x1050 looks horrendous), and missing dependencies for the core packages. It's utterly and entirely unusable for me.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Doesn't work for me
by DevL on Tue 17th Jan 2006 04:09 UTC in reply to "Doesn't work for me"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

Did you make a bug report? I previously had problems with my Thinkpad X30 but after reporting I got it fixed.

Remember people, first you report bugs, then you moan about it in forums (not saying that you haven't reported it, but I'm pretty sure you haven't).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Doesn't work for me
by eMagius on Tue 17th Jan 2006 13:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Doesn't work for me"
eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

I can't be bothered to jump through registration hoops to file a bug report for a distribution I'm never going to try again (at least not on that machine).

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Doesn't work for me
by ankitmalik on Tue 17th Jan 2006 13:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Doesn't work for me"
ankitmalik Member since:
2005-07-06

One word - Selfish!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Doesn't work for me
by Tweek on Wed 18th Jan 2006 06:41 UTC in reply to "Doesn't work for me"
Tweek Member since:
2006-01-12

and yet no one believes that...
yes problems occur, but come on...

amazing how that combo occurs for no one else besides you and your make believe laptop

Reply Score: 1

Ideas
by zenlunatic on Tue 17th Jan 2006 01:43 UTC
zenlunatic
Member since:
2006-01-16

If you have any ideas for Dapper, post them on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IdeaPool or email mark@canonical.com

Reply Score: 2

Looking forward to this.
by Wemgadge on Tue 17th Jan 2006 02:57 UTC
Wemgadge
Member since:
2005-07-02

I tried the Kubuntu Live CD based on Dapper and was very impressed.

Browser: Links (2.1pre18; Linux 2.6.12-12mdk i686; 80x25)

Reply Score: 1

Flight 3
by thebluesgnr on Tue 17th Jan 2006 04:25 UTC
thebluesgnr
Member since:
2005-11-14

btw, I'm running today's release and it's noticeably faster than breezy, from boot time to the GNOME environment.

Reply Score: 1

over it
by zombie process on Tue 17th Jan 2006 05:00 UTC
zombie process
Member since:
2005-07-08

I really tried to like (k)ubuntu, and ran it extensively, but in the end I just didn't click with it. I've gotten tired of strange issues like the constant konqueror, kaffeine and amarok crashes I have never experienced on any other distro, including debian Sid. The forums are useful as a resource, but I personally find wading through unbridaled fanboyism vs UBUNTU IS NOT READY FOR THE DESKTOP posts just to glean a small nuggets of ubuntu specific help tiresome.

Furthermore, IMO they have stretched themselves way way way too thin at this point. I mean, server, edubuntu, ubunutu, kubuntu, xubuntu, etc, etc, etc. Ever heard of focusing on your core competency? At the very least, ubuntu-server is a total waste of resources IMO. So to sum it up - brilliant vision, Shuttleworth is a very cool d00d, the ideas they have are interesting, but technically they've made some missteps IMO, and they really should be working on focusing rather than diffusing their energy IMO. (Gotta add all those damned IMOs - god forbid anyone think my opinions are fact).

Edited 2006-01-17 05:01

Reply Score: 2

RE: over it
by deadsexy on Tue 17th Jan 2006 05:24 UTC in reply to "over it"
deadsexy Member since:
2005-09-13

as far as i know, are x/y/z-ubuntu's volounteered projects by outside people, whereas edubuntu is and was a canonical project right from the start.

this comes as your IMO's as my AFAIK ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: over it
by zombie process on Tue 17th Jan 2006 13:47 UTC in reply to "RE: over it"
zombie process Member since:
2005-07-08

I believe you are correct, actually, including kubuntu, which is probably why there are so many issues with kubuntu. I will say that aside from kanotix, the *buntus are the best "linux for the laptop" distros as far as I'm concerned. Nothing else comes close to its level of OOTB support.

Reply Score: 1

LIve CD
by colinisation on Tue 17th Jan 2006 09:04 UTC
colinisation
Member since:
2006-01-08

Can you install from the live CD or do you have to download the install CD seperately ?

Reply Score: 1

RE: LIve CD
by jaboua on Tue 17th Jan 2006 15:54 UTC in reply to "LIve CD"
jaboua Member since:
2005-09-08

Seperate CDs.

Reply Score: 1

Impressive
by netpython on Tue 17th Jan 2006 13:40 UTC
netpython
Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not the first time that i have installed a pre release version of Ubuntu.They manage to impress each time with nifty improvements and even more packages.Personally i get the impression Ubuntu is incremently going for gold,the distro is getting better with every release.Linux is allready the best desktop candidate for me with Ubuntu as runner up to the top,congrettulations.

Keep up the good job,impressive.

Reply Score: 1

Why I didn't like Ubuntu...
by DrCurl on Tue 17th Jan 2006 14:14 UTC
DrCurl
Member since:
2006-01-17

So the other day, I decided to finally try the Linux distro that everyone is talking about, Ubuntu. It seems that it is the most popular distro out there (distrowatch). I was particullary interested about the laptop support, since I have a little Toshiba centrino with many features not working in Slackware oout of the box.

The "it just works" statment is true. Wireless, suspend, Fn bindings, everything was working! But the cost was very big... Ubuntu is unacceptably slow! First there was the installation, which was much longuer than under slack. I also noticed that while runing the desktop and adding softwares. Under slack, installing packages is very fast. I don't know what ubuntu does beside extracting packages when you install something but the process is very long. Then, there was the desktop itself. Starting the Gnome desktop (2.12) was taking around 30 seconds under my centrino 1.4GhZ 256RAM, and the desktop alone was taking 178 megs of RAM. Under debian sarge, which is also using deb packages, Gnome (2.8) only uses around 80 megs of RAM and starts much faster. In addition, the desktop was not responsive at all and I always had to wait for everything, even gnome-terminal. But the worse was OpenOffice which was barely usable and took at least 4 times longuer to start than under slack.

At the beginning , I said to myself "don't worry, you just have to get use to waiting a bit..."
but I couldn't and I finally but back my faithfull slackware system, though I'm thinking of puting Debian on this laptop.

I read somewhere that this Ubuntu distro (Breezy) is slow because of cairo, which will be improved in the next version.

So finally, everything may just work, but everything is too slow for me... Bye bye Ubuntu

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why I didn't like Ubuntu...
by andrewg on Tue 17th Jan 2006 14:53 UTC in reply to "Why I didn't like Ubuntu..."
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

Not sure if you made a typo but the latest release 5.10 is not Breezy. If you tried Breezy that was an old version as Hoary is 5.10.

I don't use Ubuntu but when I tried it, it was not really slow although I am sure Slack is faster.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Why I didn't like Ubuntu...
by frrossk on Wed 18th Jan 2006 09:30 UTC in reply to "RE: Why I didn't like Ubuntu..."
frrossk Member since:
2005-07-06

No, in fact Ubuntu 5.10 is named Breezy Badger. Hoary is v. 5.04.

Edited 2006-01-18 09:38

Reply Score: 1

andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

Thanks. I don't know why I thought the other way around. I followed the 5.10 link when I downloaded it.

Reply Score: 1

Nice
by jaboua on Tue 17th Jan 2006 14:50 UTC
jaboua
Member since:
2005-09-08

I didn't like Ubuntu very much before, but lately I've started liking it. I'm downloading the livecd now.

From what I can tell by looking at the shots.osdir.com screenshots, the new release looks good, the logout box for example IMO looks much nicer than the old gnome logout box. I'm looking forward to testing it.

EDIT: Oops, didn't notice the screenshots linked to in the article :$

Edited 2006-01-17 15:06

Reply Score: 1

Screenshots??
by Gentleman on Tue 17th Jan 2006 15:03 UTC
Gentleman
Member since:
2006-01-17

I wonder how the default theme looks...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Screenshots??
by jaboua on Tue 17th Jan 2006 15:41 UTC in reply to "Screenshots??"
jaboua Member since:
2005-09-08

There are screenshits at shots.osdir.com and the mentioned link (click "Flight CD3")

Reply Score: 1

CD's are here
by siki_miki on Tue 17th Jan 2006 16:26 UTC
siki_miki
Member since:
2006-01-17

But where are DVD images?
I have machine with low-speed internet access.

Reply Score: 1

My comments are getting vindicated
by rakamaka on Tue 17th Jan 2006 16:33 UTC
rakamaka
Member since:
2005-08-12

This is the comment I made some days ago on this forum and is VINDICATED by the present article.....
Dear Mark Shuttleworth,
"Nowdays OSNews reposts ubuntu did this, Ubuntu did that, I am getting tired of these small dents in big gorilla MS. It almost looks like we are riding Ubuntu hype. Why do Ubuntu release these small upgrades every weeks. Why not fix something at once and then go on...Read at Ubuntu forums they have exactly same silly difficulties of installation maintaining upgrading etc etc as other distros.... The hype will not overcome these problems...
And again Mark, why do you invest lot of time and efforts to "make it debian incompatible, isn't it???'" So finally Ubuntu will be neither debian nor anything compatible....by 2010
Think why businessman like Mark will invest millions of $$$ to promote OSS? It doesn't make any sense. He must have some ulterior motive to gain profit or make money from this distro......."

Reply Score: 0

RE: Interesting
by shadow303 on Tue 17th Jan 2006 16:40 UTC
shadow303
Member since:
2005-06-29

> How stable is the CD?

That depends on whether you lay it flat or try to stand it on its edge. ;-)

Reply Score: 4