Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 21:26 UTC, submitted by Anonymous
Novell and Ximian LinuxEdge has posted the videos of the presentation of Novell Desktop Linux 10 by Nat Friedman. "A preview of Novell Linux Desktop 10 was shown to an audience at the Solutions Linux conference this week. We have a selection of videos which display a variety of amazing effects through the use of XGL, including transparency, wobbling windows, a 3D cube for desktop switching, and a task switcher which displays a preview of windows."
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Impresive, but....
by tristan on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 21:48 UTC
tristan
Member since:
2006-02-01

There's no denying these videos are impressive, but I'm not sure there's actually anything new, or all that useful here.

The "wobbly windows" effect, as well as being a bit irritating, was shown in demos of Luminocity in March last year -- 11 months ago.

Also, the cube workspace switching effect has been around for ages. Ubuntu/Debian (and I would imagine most other distros) have the "3ddesktop" package where you can see this yourself.

In fact, the only thing shown in the videos that couldn't be done by using the regular X Composite extension is the zoom effect -- and while that's probably extremely useful for accessibility purposes, I don't think most people will have much of a use for it.

There's no doubt XGL is the Next Big Thing for the Linux desktop, and I'm very excited that Novell seems to be making a big push to make it happen. But I think we'll have to wait for Trolltech and the GTK team to get hold of it before we see anything truly revolutionary.

EDIT: Actually, I take back the bit about 3ddesktop -- I've just had a play with it, and it's more basic than I remembered, and moreso than the videos show.

But there still isn't a hell of a lot more than was shown in the Luminocity vids from last year -- which used a regular X server rather than XGL. See here:

http://www.gnome.org/~seth/blog/xshots

Edited 2006-02-03 22:00

Reply Score: 1

RE: Impresive, but....
by hornett on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 21:57 UTC in reply to "Impresive, but...."
hornett Member since:
2005-09-19

The 3ddesktop package is similar but not the same.

If you look closely in these videos, you will see that the videos keep playing while the cube is being spun.
IIRC, the 3ddesktop program takes a snapshot of the screen then wraps that onto a cube.

I think the big thing here is that the windows are being manipulated while still being 'live'

Reply Score: 2

RE: Impresive, but....
by kaiwai on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:39 UTC in reply to "Impresive, but...."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, its a good thing(tm) because it off loads the work onto the GPU - fancy new effects, SVG graphics everywhere without the performance penalty. Sure the effects they used are probably pretty useless for those outside the consumer space, but what it does, however, show is a proof of concept and its up to now the ISV's to make use of this push forward.

As for taking advantage, no need - XGL is X11 riding ontop of OpenGL, and GTK and Qt ride ontop of the X11 library, so its already accelerated, ccouple that with Cairo using OpenGL has a backend and GTK using Cairo for themes and some parts, it'll be a gradual move forward, be it not revolutionary, but an evolution.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Impresive, but....
by youknowmewell on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:52 UTC in reply to "Impresive, but...."
youknowmewell Member since:
2005-07-08

Actually, I think the zoom might be really useful for graphics work. Probably more useful for raster graphics, but if it is simple and quick to use than it could be useful as a sidekick to the normal zoom tools in graphics programs.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Impresive, but....
by modmans2ndcoming on Sat 4th Feb 2006 01:58 UTC in reply to "Impresive, but...."
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

hmmm...

gee... a proof of concept taht has not been included in any major distro yet is more important than a distro actualy implimenting it?

yeah right.

Reply Score: 1

Wow !
by yorch on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:01 UTC
yorch
Member since:
2006-01-28

"redmond, prepare your photocopiers"

(did you look at that "start" menu, btw?)

Reply Score: 0

RE: Wow !
by sappyvcv on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:40 UTC in reply to "Wow !"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft was demoing similar things for Longhorn years ago. Troll elsewhere buddy. No one can claim innovation on this kind of thing, it's an evolutionary step.

Personally, I'm excited that Vista, OSX and Linux will all have this kind of thing soon. Once the technology is final and stable, we'll start to see some really cool stuff and some great ideas.

Edited 2006-02-03 22:44

Reply Score: 5

Smoothness
by gamehack on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:13 UTC
gamehack
Member since:
2005-06-29

There really wasn't something we have not seen but hey... watching the smoothness of the movements of the windows and the quick fade in/out made me really happy. I think using the GPU for rendering all that stuff helps quite a bit. I can just hope the guys developing the technologies making this possible and hopefully mainstream as soon as possible keep up the good work. Thanks

Reply Score: 1

Careful
by SlackerJack on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:22 UTC
SlackerJack
Member since:
2005-11-12

Lets look at this very carefully, on the one hand you can say it's a direct copy and on the other it's "two can play at that game".

It now seems that Linux desktop, Vista and OSX are on even footing when it comes to this, I dont know about you but i'm getting really extited about it all.

Reply Score: 1

Nice
by Abdullah on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:22 UTC
Abdullah
Member since:
2005-07-06

Very nice.

I'm not a linux user, but this looks like something I would like to try...

Reply Score: 2

RE
by Kroc on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:24 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

It's sad that they've had to work on this behind closed doors in order to make the progress they have. If XGL was started inside the community, six months would be spent bitching about what distro the CVS server would run. *shakes head*

Reply Score: 3

v Lack of a certain kind of comment
by Tom K on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:24 UTC
Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

Oh, I particularly enjoy the total Expose rip-off. :-P

Reply Score: 0

Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Why should something be a rip-off of a genuinely user-friendly idea that can boost productivity.

All UI is evolutionary. Do you complain because Netscape copied the back button from Mosaic?

Reply Score: 5

Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

Exactly! It's a good UI idea. Let everyone use it.

But remember when the similar-to-Expose feature in Vista was unveiled, everyone here got their panties all up in a knot because "OMG IT'S A RIP-OFF OF EXPOSE!"? It was only similar to Expose, and there was a big outrage.

Now Novell blatantly copies Apple and no one pipes up? I'm only complaining about the double standard, not Novell actually copying Apple. To be honest with you, I would hope that *every* OS I used had Expose.

Reply Score: 1

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Now Novell blatantly copies Apple and no one pipes up? I'm only complaining about the double standard, not Novell actually copying Apple.

Well, everything's somewhat of an Expose rip-off because people have been looking for ways to better manage open Windows. Apple just got there first with their implementation.

Edited 2006-02-04 00:04

Reply Score: 2

remenic Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm not sure whether you're pretending to be stupid, or really are... You're convincing though!

In many people's eyes, Microsoft is evil. Novell isn't. Apple isn't either. But don't feel sorry for Microsoft, they owe it all to themselve.

And that's just the way it is. Get over it.

Edited 2006-02-04 00:07

Reply Score: 1

Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

Once again, I am amazed.

First you say: "I'm not sure whether you're pretending to be stupid, or really are... You're convincing though!"

And then: "In many people's eyes, Microsoft is evil. Novell isn't. Apple isn't either. But don't feel sorry for Microsoft, they owe it all to themselve."

What scares me the most is that there are actually many people just like you.

Reply Score: 3

Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

Welcome to the typical ramblings of a Linux zealot.

They start off with insulting your intelligence. Then they throw in something about Microsoft being evil/putting out shitty products, and finally follow it through with a defense of the company/distro du jour.

... Even if the topic never really revolved around that. :-)

Reply Score: 0

remenic Member since:
2005-07-06

What, are you saying that what I said is not true? That in many eyes, Microsoft ISN'T the enemy? Then why do you think people piss on Microsoft so much but not on Apple or Linux?

I'm not being a zealot, I'm just saying what's already known. And what everyone can see. It's not secret, and it doesn't reflect my personal opinion. Linux Is Poo wanted to know why people piss on Microsoft, but not on Novell.

The answer still is: In many people's eyes, Microsoft is Evil and Novell is not. That's the plain simple answer. Eat it.

If you think there's more to it than that, please feel free to help me give Linux Is Poo an answer to why people piss on Microsoft but not on Novell for copying ideas.

I don't think you can fight the fact that people here just don't like Microsoft. Saying that doesn't say anything about me though.

Reply Score: 1

remenic Member since:
2005-07-06

The topic did evolve around that, because you asked:

"Now Novell blatantly copies Apple and no one pipes up?"

I told you why people "pipe up" when Microsoft copies something. I never said that _I_ think Microsoft is bad, but that's what most people here think. And _THAT_ is why no one "pipes up" this time.

What's really sad is that you had to ask it. And then piss over people that give you the answer you already knew.

Reply Score: 1

theine Member since:
2005-09-29

But remember when the similar-to-Expose feature in Vista was unveiled, everyone here got their panties all up in a knot because "OMG IT'S A RIP-OFF OF EXPOSE!"? It was only similar to Expose, and there was a big outrage.

Everyone? No. It were f--king Mac zealots like you only who got their panties up in a knot about this. But please, feel free to continue complaining about your own kind's double standards.

Reply Score: 0

theine Member since:
2005-09-29

Here I am denouncing the community's bitching, and yet you call me a Mac zealot? Do you even know the words you're typing? It's equivalent to a Muslim denouncing his fellow followers' suicide bombings, and getting called an Islamic fanatic.

You're a pretty smart Mac zealot, I give you that.

Reply Score: 0

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Did you enjoy it as much as I enjoyed watching shadows ripoff (yes even old DOS apps had shadows under windows), alt-tab ripof in 10.0?

Or was it as enjoyable as rotating cube in installer which rip off 3ddesktop, etc.

I actualy expect that Apple will reinvent off xrain in 10.5 or at least virtual desktops.

:P

Reply Score: 2

Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

No one reasonable would ever complain about small things like that. That was his point.

If you spend your time on the internet convincing people that Microsoft ripped off Apple by designing the Xbox white, then my friend, you need to get laid.

Reply Score: 1

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

???

p.s. Reread the thread if you don't understand my answer

Reply Score: 2

Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

I think you're pretty much the only one who saw my point.

People here bitch about Company X ripping off Company Y with tiny feature Z, but only if it's not a Linux company doing the ripping-off. My point was that it's all fscking stupid because no reasonable person would ever really give a damn, but if they do, then they should at least be fair and whine about copying on ALL fronts.

Reply Score: 0

thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

I'm a reader of OSNews and I see bitching about "ripping off" in all topics. I see people saying Vista is a rip off of OS X, that OS X itself rips off a lot of technology (Dashboard being listed as a classic example...), and that KDE and GNOME rip off other GUIs, like BeOS.

I also see you constantly bitching about GNU/Linux in several topics, including most recently the GNOME 2.14 beta topic (not to mention this very own).

Your nickname already shows bias, so it's kind of funny to see you calling people "zealots", or saying that people are unfair against proprietary software.

Reply Score: 5

ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

You have to join Linux Is Poo's little world where the "linux zealouts" are conspiring against him to understand what he's talking about.

Edited 2006-02-04 20:29

Reply Score: 4

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

You have to join Linux Is Poo's little world where the "linux zealouts" are conspiring against him to understand what he's talking about.

:P

Yeah, although sometimes he makes good remarks too (non-linux related). His main problem is only the fact that he isn't zealot. He's just biased basher waging his own private war against linux. But unfortunately, being biased basher is just 0.01% better than zealot.

Reply Score: 2

mariux Member since:
2005-11-13

Well, its a tech demo, not a final product. Those effects were there to show what could be done.

Edited 2006-02-03 22:34

Reply Score: 1

tristan Member since:
2006-02-01

I think that's because a completely hardware accelerated desktop using 3D graphics interfaces isn't a new idea by any means. It's a sensible and logical thing to do, and has mooted for years -- I'm pretty sure the idea for XGL was around before Quarz Extreme or whatever it's called in Vista. It's just taken Novell to actually take a lead and get it developed.

If there were certain effect whereby windows appeared to grow out of the taskbar when they were unminimised, a la OS X, or the titlebars of windows appeared frosted when they were in the background, a la Vista, there might be more of a case for shouting "copycats" -- but as it stands, I don't think it's reasonable.

Besides, Gnome and KDE have been stealing the best ideas from OS X and Windows (usually, respectively) for years ;-)

Reply Score: 2

Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

This is a "preview of Novell Linux Desktop 10", meaning that it's not just a tech demo, but an actual preview of what may be in the final. I'd say it's at least somewhat reasonable to shout "copycat", seeing as how the same is done against Microsoft when there's even a slight whiff of any reimplementations of existing competitor's products.

In any case, I'd like to know where you get the idea that the idea for XGL was around before Quartz/Avalon. Do you actually have any news story or timeline to prove that?

Reply Score: 1

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

I'd say it's at least somewhat reasonable to shout "copycat", seeing as how the same is done against Microsoft when there's even a slight whiff of any reimplementations of existing competitor's products.

So shout once, ok. yes, it is expose rip off. no one denies that here, but to be fair expose is the only ripped feature here, all others pre existed OSX.

There's no need to be the only one shouting here and post zillion posts spewing the same, people will get tired of moding you down.

Apple did copy a lot from others too. As did MS. And same goes for Novell, Gnome, KDE, [insert your project here].

Reply Score: 2

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Yes, that's true, and I'm glad you see it.

I'm a bit sad you accuse Novell (Novell was already riped off their ideas way more than they could ever rip off back) of riping off one lowly feature like expose.

Novell was leading the network services inovations with their Netware for a long time. Think how many companies like MS, Apple ripped off their features and ideas.

That's a bit unfair of you. Or did you, on the other hand, shout "rip off" in that times too?

It's the zealots who think that everything innovative came from the Linux camp, or was dreamt up by a Linux developer in a drug-induced stupor in 1995, that I have a problem with.

No, that would be Mac zealots who think that Steve Jobs invented big breasts, sliced bread and good looks. They are still claiming that humanity is just stealing Steves invention.

In translation. Mac zealots are the worst, Windows and linux compete on the same level of zealotry. While there is too few Solaris zealots to be loud (beside the fact that 99% has @sun.com e-mail).

Edited 2006-02-04 01:40

Reply Score: 1

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Mac zealots try to switch everyone to their decent (and pretty) platform.
Linux zealots try to switch everyone to an unusable, perpetually-in-beta, hunk of junk.

Which is worse, really? ;)


In short:
Mac zealots, because they always think that Mac is perfect for everyone (and if you try to proove them wrong they just get insulting), all other zealots are at least in 0.01% prepared to see some shortages, Mac zealots ride on clear 0%.

In long:
Based on the fact that I own computers with all platforms?

Mac is neither decent nor preety with a factor of multipling mouse milleage where airlines already give frequent flier discounts. Eye candy is noticable only first half hour you use some OS, all other is just habbit. I'm still waiting for codecs to start working on my G5. I still wait for decent speed in browsing. It is unusable with dual screen setup. I'm still wainting to get decent update for 10.3 (10.4 is a memory hog with spotlight, and if you disable it, search doesn't work shit). I'm still waiting for one single look of applications (I can achieve that on Linux, without any trouble. On Windows at least result is decent). OSX is nothing but a slugish, lazy horse with the worst kind of dock system ever imagined.

About HW on Mac that "just works". Yes you can plug some devices like iPod and they "just work" (so did it "just work" for one friend of mine on linux, he just didn't know that I was thinking about it and already installed support for it). But how many new devices do you buy per one day? In any OS everything "just works", but only if hardware was chosen with thinking about OS support before buying.

In my case Linux still fares the best ride. Windows are second. Mac is to be avoided.

Well, out of two people who bought Mac because they thought how great it is, not even one stayed with it. Out of 10 people I installed linux in the last months, 7 stayed with it now claiming everything "just works" to the point where it can already count to zealoting (I hate that too, in fact it isn't true, it works just as it always does (with all the goods and bads). The only diff here is that they all had perfect machine for linux because they asked me about hw and system was set up by me to fullfill all their needs, almost any os is perfeect in this case), 3 went back to Windows because they wanted to use software they were used to.

So, which is worse? ;)

Different minds, different opinions. Which is actualy good. I couldn't stand another one of me, world is just too small:) So something decent for you is not the case to be decent for everybody and this is why you can't say one is decent and one is hunk of junk. I think we agree on this one.

Now a real story how Mac zealots are dead wrong and worse: Few people I know were persuaded by zealots like that to buy Mac. Boy, they were dissapointed because not one of their software worked (you can't run custom accounting app on OSX and off course loosing money when they sold used Mac to be be replaced with PC). With linux you can't do damage like this. If one is Apple user, let him buy PPC, install linux PPC along side with OSX. PC? Buy PC, install both Windows and linux. Yes, apple-intel:) you can't install windows on Intel mac. Again worse.

p.s. I think we went in arguments too many times already, and you won't start bashing about me zealoting.

Reply Score: 4

StringCheesian Member since:
2005-07-06

Moving to a hardware accelerated desktop isn't copying any more than moving to a high/true color desktop was. It's just the obvious next step given current hardware capabilities. I wouldn't say that Vista is copying OS X either, for the same reason.

I've spend maybe 30 min max playing with XGL (from CVS) and OS X, and I've only seen videos of Vista's 3D effects, but I'm already aware of several differences:
1. AFAIK Vista will still be single desktop only, so no desktop switching let alone rotating cube desktop switching. I don't remember OS X having multiple desktops either.
2. The wobbling, although weird and distracting, is original I think. It can be turned off.
3. Vista shows windows at an angle when cycling through them, XGL doesn't.
4. Mac OS X has cute elaborate effects like the genie thing, that Vista and XGL don't seem to be copying.

Reply Score: 2

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

1. AFAIK Vista will still be single desktop only, so no desktop switching let alone rotating cube desktop switching. I don't remember OS X having multiple desktops either.

I'm pretty sure that's because they just didn't make any demos that do it. That and it would most likely be trivial to add. The desktop is just a surface in DirectX, as are all the windows. The desktop itself is just a window. They could very easily rotate around the surface, and put multiple surfaces together to form a cube.

2. The wobbling, although weird and distracting, is original I think. It can be turned off.

Not at all. OS X had something similar (though a bit more simple) in 2001? And Longhorn demos had the exact same thing (wobbly windows) a few years ago.

3. Vista shows windows at an angle when cycling through them, XGL doesn't.

That's Flip3d. There is also just "Flip", which is pretty much the same thing as Novells.

Reply Score: 2

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

1. AFAIK Vista will still be single desktop only, so no desktop switching let alone rotating cube desktop switching. I don't remember OS X having multiple desktops either.

OSX uses it in two places. Firstly, when doing fast user switching. Secondly, it's a transition inside Keynote.

2. The wobbling, although weird and distracting, is original I think. It can be turned off.

Not at all. OS X had something similar (though a bit more simple) in 2001? And Longhorn demos had the exact same thing (wobbly windows) a few years ago.


It's even older. WindowFX, by the same company as WindowBlinds, supported transparent windows, completely customized shadows, wobly windows, and even other 3D transitions while dragging a window. It could (and can) also do various genie-like effects when closing windows. New effects can be created as plugins.

Before Longhorn in any case, and iirc OSX has never been as advanced as WindowFX.

Reply Score: 5

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

That's true, but performance has always been pretty slow with that. I've used it before, and it was both ugly and slow even on decent hardware.

But yeah, the idea is certainly not new, nor original to anyone.

Reply Score: 1

Speed inhancements
by blixel on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:33 UTC
blixel
Member since:
2005-07-06

Personally, I don't care about the wobbly windows, or any of the other "eye candy" effects. But what did impress me about the video was how smooth and responsive everything seemed to be.

I've been using Linux and FreeBSD with Xorg (previously XFree86) for years, and one thing that has bothered me for a long time is how relatively sluggish the X Window System feels compared to MS Windows. (And compared to YellowTab Zeta.)

It was my understanding that MS Windows achieves a more responsive GUI (lower latency) than X does due to graphical integration at the kernel level. But whatever the case, I'm really hurting for a more responsive Desktop these days. Hopefully XGL, or Cairo, or Glitz, or a combination of all these things that I've been reading about for so long now are the answer. And hopefully they are implemented into packages and distributions soon.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Speed inhancements
by blixel on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:34 UTC in reply to "Speed inhancements"
blixel Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah ... it's spelled enhancement, I know. What happened to the edit option?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Speed inhancements
by Celerate on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:59 UTC in reply to "RE: Speed inhancements"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

"What happened to the edit option?"

Last time I checked it was only available for 20 minutes after the post was made.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Speed enhancements
by Moochman on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:51 UTC in reply to "Speed inhancements"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't know what distro you're using, or what graphics card for that matter, but you might want to try Suse. Its "experimental" ATI OpenGL rendering (an option in Sax2, the X configuration frontend) did wonders for my X rendering responsiveness, where distros like Xandros and Linspire had failed horribly, and even Ubuntu wasn't quite as fast. I think it's got good nVidia drivers built in, too.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Speed enhancements
by blixel on Sat 4th Feb 2006 02:39 UTC in reply to "RE: Speed enhancements"
blixel Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't know what distro you're using, or what graphics card for that matter...

I've been using Gentoo for the last 18 months. (On my main machine anyway. I run FreeBSD / Ubuntu / Debian / Other distro / Other OS on my spare machine.)

I have an NVidia GeForce 6600 GT. 1GB of RAM running in Dual Channel mode. (512MB x 2) AMD XP3200+ CPU. Asus motherboard.

It seems to primarily be an issue with what I have come to call "redraw". (I don't know if that is the technically correct terminology or not though.) But for example, if you drag a window around in front of FireFox, it trails really bad. And just moving/resizing windows in general ... there's this definite feeling of lag/latency as you see the window frame being redrawn, or you see the icons being slowly repainted on the screen.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Speed enhancements
by superstoned on Sat 4th Feb 2006 13:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Speed enhancements"
superstoned Member since:
2005-07-07

you're right, that's a problem, mostly X-related. composite and RENDER accelleration will fix this, as will XGL.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Speed enhancements
by billnvd on Sat 4th Feb 2006 16:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Speed enhancements"
billnvd Member since:
2006-02-04

Actually, that lag is more related to the application that is behind the window you are dragging. Each application is told to redraw it's screen when items move across the mapped area.

If you want to see this, open a graphics heavy page in firefox, opera and dillo. Now drag a terminal window around on each browser. Firefox(dog slow redraws), Opera(slow redraws), Dillo(no noticeable redraw delays).

It is not X people. It is the application!!!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Speed enhancements
by netpython on Sat 4th Feb 2006 21:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Speed enhancements"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

"I've been using Gentoo for the last 18 months. (On my main machine anyway. I run FreeBSD / Ubuntu / Debian / Other distro / Other OS on my spare machine.)"

More or less the same.

"I have an NVidia GeForce 6600 GT. 1GB of RAM running in Dual Channel mode. (512MB x 2) AMD XP3200+ CPU. Asus motherboard."

Nvidia FX5700 AGP 8x,1GB PC2700 DDR,AMD64 XP3000+ Asus K8N mobo.Still i find it hard to find any resemblance in your testimonial remarks to be honest.Both SuSE 10 retail and Gentoo run practically as fast as XP whereas moving,resizing is concerned.Even when i emerge kde 3.5.1,burn an iso,download one,and view a pdf at the same time.Though i must say it could help if your wm is fluxbox or the kind,must say KDE isn't that much slower these days.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Speed enhancements
by Lumbergh on Sat 4th Feb 2006 23:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Speed enhancements"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

It seems to primarily be an issue with what I have come to call "redraw". (I don't know if that is the technically correct terminology or not though.) But for example, if you drag a window around in front of FireFox,

Yes, it's a Firefox and window manager issue.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Speed inhancements
by hraq on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:11 UTC in reply to "Speed inhancements"
hraq Member since:
2005-07-06

"It was my understanding that MS Windows achieves a more responsive GUI (lower latency) than X does due to graphical integration at the kernel level."

My nvidia card dirvers load at kernel level when loading RHEL 4.2 AS; and It's super fast and responsive; try it and you will know what I mean. But remember you will need nvidia based card and nvidia drivers not the out of the box drivers.
If you want to feel the difference before and after fire the screensave with one of its OpenGL and tick the check mark which says show frame rate, then hit preview.
In my case atlantis jumped from 5fps to 35 fps

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Speed inhancements
by somebody on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:16 UTC in reply to "RE: Speed inhancements"
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

My nvidia card dirvers load at kernel level when loading RHEL 4.2 AS

That is just agpart driver modification if I'm not wrong, all other drivers have same feature.

Second, screensaver performance diff was because without proprietary drivers you were using xorg driver, which is 2d only. Atlantis was running on cpu.

Reply Score: 1

Modules.
by miguel on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 22:37 UTC
miguel
Member since:
2005-07-27


Personally, I don't care about the wobbly windows, or any of the other "eye candy" effects. But what did impress me about the video was how smooth and responsive everything seemed to be.


David Reveman has designed a plugin interface for this new system. So you can add new effects to every interesting event on the desktop.

Wait for next week for the official videos that will be released to get an idea of everything that is bundled in the current edition (the videos do not contain all of it).

Reply Score: 5

RE: Modules.
by JCooper on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:58 UTC in reply to "Modules."
JCooper Member since:
2005-07-06

David Reveman has designed a plugin interface for this new system. So you can add new effects to every interesting event on the desktop.

Wait for next week for the official videos that will be released to get an idea of everything that is bundled in the current edition (the videos do not contain all of it).


Sounds great - I'm sure all the fans of this stuff will be counting the days to see the videos, read the blogs, install unofficial packages for their distro.

Its large contributions to the OSS community like this that get people fired up. It takes something grand and exciting to get people interested and more importantly motivated. Mono had this effect - all of a sudden, loads of cool, well thought out, useful applications sprung up. Once people get their hands on xgl and experience the speedier, minimal-redraw desktop, they'll be excited again and want to improve and develop cool new stuff.

Thankyou David and the desktop team at Novell - I think this contribution will lead to a huge increase in Gnome improvements. I also hope it will spur on the KDE community and they can do more cool new stuff with plasma etc based on XGL coolness.

I'm also liking the other theme / taskbar / menu changes that you get a brief view of. Will these also be released to the community as optional patches to the current Gnome panels/menus?

Reply Score: 3

Want to know more about XGL?
by Dark_Knight on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:06 UTC
Dark_Knight
Member since:
2005-07-10
Impressive
by Thom_Holwerda on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:09 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Btw, I find the videos really impressive. While the effects aren't exactly original, the smoothness is however very, VERY impressive. And the new 'start' menu does hold some resemblance (as far as it's judgable) to those mockups a few weeks ago.

I'm wondering why Novell is doing all this. They must be aiming for the home desktop with this-- as this is useless fluff on corporate desktops.

Edited 2006-02-03 23:11

Reply Score: 5

RE: Impressive
by Dark_Knight on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:28 UTC in reply to "Impressive"
Dark_Knight Member since:
2005-07-10

Thom,

Re: "I'm wondering why Novell is doing all this. They must be aiming for the home desktop with this-- as this is useless fluff on corporate desktops."

It all depends on what your job function is. I can see being able to quickly switch between desktop applications useful. Though with the additional eye candy effects it does seem that Novell is not just targeting NLD for the enterprise anymore but as a global platform solution. If so then we may see SUSE Linux only available from OpenSUSE.org with retail stores selling NLD instead of SUSE Linux. This would then allow Novell to focus more on one desktop solution as well provide a better understanding for those that may be confused with both products from Novell.

Edited 2006-02-03 23:32

Reply Score: 2

RE: Impressive
by Moochman on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:01 UTC in reply to "Impressive"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, I'm wondering how well/whether this will work with KDE. One would think that Novell is aiming to update Suse's KDE desktop with this technology too, but who knows?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Impressive
by miguel on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Impressive"
miguel Member since:
2005-07-27


Yeah, I'm wondering how well/whether this will work with KDE. One would think that Novell is aiming to update Suse's KDE desktop with this technology too, but who knows?


David Reveman actually designed things in a way that will ensure that this stuff integrates well with any desktop/windowing system.

Details will be unveiled next week.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Impressive
by segedunum on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:17 UTC in reply to "Impressive"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Btw, I find the videos really impressive. While the effects aren't exactly original, the smoothness is however very, VERY impressive.

Unless the state of hardware acceleration improves on Linux generally you can simply forget most of this, including the smoothness - and the spinning cube of desktops. Sun made pretty much the same presentation for Looking Glass. Microsoft has had to look very long and hard into providing levels of backwards compatibility for older hardware into Vista, and Apple doesn't need to worry about that because they know what hardware you'll be running it on because they control it.

I'm wondering why Novell is doing all this.

They're doing it because some people have a bee in their bonnet about Vista, and because they're probably trying to convince even their own employees about their own Linux desktop by wooing them with effects and soundbites. However, there are ten dozen more mundane, but more important, things to be done to get an adequate desktop before you get to this stuff. There is limited time and developer resources as it is. If somebody can do it then fine, but for that to be the focus of just about everything you're providing and selling......

They must be aiming for the home desktop with this

Nope.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Impressive
by Moochman on Sun 5th Feb 2006 01:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Impressive"
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

But, there's no motivation to improve 3d graphics driver support if the desktop environment isn't making use of that support. This project will drive the development, because now there's actually a reason for it.

Reply Score: 2

The big innovative chunk
by miguel on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:16 UTC
miguel
Member since:
2005-07-27

The point again is not that it is something that has never been seen by a human on the surface of this planet.

There are a number of interesting aspects of David's work on Xgl:

* It works on top of X, which will benefit every OS based on X (Linux, BSD, OpenSolaris).

* This is a rendering technology that was not previously available to us, X users on a Unix system.

* This lowers the barrier for people to take advantage of features on the desktop that before required elaborate or complicated hacks.

In addition, the framework that does all of these effects is pluggable, plus you get the source code to the current effects.

And if there is one area where open source shines is writing plugins, so I expect this to be only the tip of the iceberg.

Reply Score: 5

Ironically ....
by mikehearn on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:17 UTC
mikehearn
Member since:
2005-12-31

the videos don't play in OpenSUSE 10.1 - xine just says it doesn't have the XvID codec and it may be missing due to patent concerns.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Ironically ....
by Celerate on Sat 4th Feb 2006 01:05 UTC in reply to "Ironically ...."
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

That is one of the things that always annoys me about Linux, I love the OS but having to install codecs myself isn't something I think I should have to do. I don't know about anyone else but I've even had applications become much less stable on me because I installed the third party codecs. Novell has money, maybe we should ask them if they'll license and include more media support. With the internet, digital cameras and all those other fun gadgets used in homes and businesses these days better multimedia support is an absolute must.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ironically ....
by JCooper on Sat 4th Feb 2006 01:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Ironically ...."
JCooper Member since:
2005-07-06

But you have to do the same with XP? By default, you can only play wma and mp3 out of the box. You need to install video codecs to play anything other than wmv and simple Intel video / basic avi's and mpg.

The one saving grace of both Linux and Windows is VLC - fits both platforms and plays most formats reliably. Saves having to download codecs ;)

Edited 2006-02-04 01:23

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Ironically ....
by Celerate on Sat 4th Feb 2006 02:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Ironically ...."
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

The funny thing is that until I started watching Apple keynotes windows media player and macromedia flash player were all I ever needed to see every media format I ever came across on the internet. On Linux in contrast just about every video file I came across wouldn't work and depending on the distribution's policy on including mp3 support that might not work either. If those two formats were all WMP needed than I don't see why it would be so hard for Novell to license them along with the main Quicktime formats.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Ironically ....
by RenatoRam on Sun 5th Feb 2006 21:04 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Ironically ...."
RenatoRam Member since:
2005-11-14

Please, don't play stupid.
On any modern distro on day1 you can activate a repository, and install all you need in ONE command.

And you'll never bother about codecs again.
With pretty much every player.

Would you please compare with windows?

The only solution I know is using VLC (that guess what, comes from linux).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Ironically ....
by somebody on Sat 4th Feb 2006 01:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Ironically ...."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

That is one of the things that always annoys me about Linux, I love the OS but having to install codecs myself isn't something I think I should have to do.

Everytime after installing distro, I just installed mplayer. Codecs? Never. Works, everything. You can install vlc or xine too. GStreamer? Different media support sucks for me there. I still hope that media support will actualy get better there too.

In windows or Apple actualy almost nothing works out of the base. On Windows one can at least install codec pack, at least it is easy. On my Mac actualy almost nothing still describes best my current Mac media state. Tried MPlayer OSX, Media player. All suck. VLC is probably the only decent OSX player with at least good media support

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ironically ....
by chemical_scum on Wed 8th Feb 2006 13:13 UTC in reply to "Ironically ...."
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

the videos don't play in OpenSUSE 10.1 - xine just says it doesn't have the XvID codec and it may be missing due to patent concerns.

From http://www.xvid.org/ :

"XviD is copyright-protected program code and is released under the terms of the GNU GPL license, which means you can distribute it freely, e.g. on a CD-ROM, provided that you meet the restrictions of the GPL license. For example, if you distribute the XviD codec in binary form, you have to add the source code to the CD-ROM, too."

So its a free software codec why OpenSUSE 10.1 does not include I dont know why. But there may indeed be some patent questions as the site does not download binaries only source code.

BTW I cannot view the videos either. I am at work using my XP box and the company firewall is preventing media player from downloading and installing the XvID codec. I will have to wait til I get home to see if I can play them on my Linux box. I have downloaded most of the codecs available from the PLF servers so I should be OK.

Edited 2006-02-08 13:29

Reply Score: 1

demonstration videos.
by Dark_Knight on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:18 UTC
Dark_Knight
Member since:
2005-07-10

A few tips for those regarding video especially for demonstrating new software releases.

1. Stabilize the camera. After all the videos seemed like a bad copy of someone pirating a film in a theatre

2. Turn the audio on. Audio does get the point across better when video is used.

3. Record discussion on new functionality, not just new eye candy effects. Such as what does NLD 10 offer consumers it didn't in NLD 9? Is the Gnome desktop more streamlined and functional? What steps has Novell taken to further ease consumers migration to the distribution?

Edited 2006-02-03 23:28

Reply Score: 1

RE: demonstration videos.
by kiddo on Sat 4th Feb 2006 02:58 UTC in reply to "demonstration videos."
kiddo Member since:
2005-07-23

obviously it was shot by an independent audience member, so IF novell wanted to do it, I believe they would have done it right.. Like assigning a random guy with a tripod and a full zoom in on the screen at the end of the room. And sound. Oh well, it's better than nothing, but the video quality is so crappy I cannot distinguish the desktop features properly, I hope to see better (pro) demo videos, screenshots, anything, please novell ;) !

Reply Score: 2

cool
by backdoc on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:20 UTC
backdoc
Member since:
2006-01-14

This looks really impressive to me. It's coming out in 10? That's something to look forward to. I wonder what kind of hardware that required?

Reply Score: 1

Woo, Well Done!
by hraq on Fri 3rd Feb 2006 23:38 UTC
hraq
Member since:
2005-07-06

Is this Apple OSX?!

Novell is doing very well recently and their market capital is increasing (3.7 Billion) while RehHat is static at around 5 Billion.
I wish they end up with it quickly to be the first user of this OS; but what I wish really from them is to optimize the graphics engine to work fast on old CPUs and not to require Vista's recommended hardware list.

Nowone can ignore linux anymore, not even the ignorants.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Woo, Well Done!
by kiddo on Sat 4th Feb 2006 03:02 UTC in reply to "Woo, Well Done!"
kiddo Member since:
2005-07-23

Oh come on, you want it to look good, BUT be fast AND be released soon? Choose two out of three ;)

Nowone can ignore linux anymore, not even the ignorants.
Does not mean much.. ignorants can ignore because they are not aware it exists. Otherwise they would not be ignorants. And there are plenty of people who do not know what an operating system is.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Woo, Well Done!
by elsewhere on Sat 4th Feb 2006 04:02 UTC in reply to "Woo, Well Done!"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

I wish they end up with it quickly to be the first user of this OS

NLD 10 is due for beta next month and final release for May, so I imagine they will be the first distro. Not to be cynical, but I don't think they'd be releasing xgl to public if they didn't have it working well enough to be the first out of the gate with. And if it really works that well in the real world, then they deserve to be. I guess.

Reply Score: 1

somebody
Member since:
2005-07-07

Just think how many new features Novell made with Netware. Whole world is still riping them off.

In my opinion it is only fair for Novell, to get their share of riping off features from others now.

Reply Score: 2

movies?
by k9_engineer on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:46 UTC
k9_engineer
Member since:
2006-02-04

I cant get them to play with media player 10, real player, quicktime or in Kubuntu with kaffeine. How did "yall" get them to play forcyringoutloud!

Reply Score: 1

RE: movies?
by StringCheesian on Sat 4th Feb 2006 01:11 UTC in reply to "movies?"
StringCheesian Member since:
2005-07-06

If you're on Windows and the movies won't play, try installing a codec pack:
http://www.free-codecs.com/Codec_Packs.htm

They played fine here on Gentoo Linux (with win32codecs and xvid installed).

Edited 2006-02-04 01:14

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: movies?
by k9_engineer on Sat 4th Feb 2006 02:07 UTC in reply to "RE: movies?"
k9_engineer Member since:
2006-02-04

Thanks StringChessian, they play now. muchos gracious!

Reply Score: 1

I hope they don't chicken out.
by MrStaticVoid on Sat 4th Feb 2006 00:48 UTC
MrStaticVoid
Member since:
2006-02-04

It seems like we have been seeing this for months, maybe years, but they are all just demos and go no further. I hope that Novell doesn't chicken out and scrap this!

It's abolutely beatiful.

Reply Score: 1

...
by Mitarai on Sat 4th Feb 2006 02:05 UTC
Mitarai
Member since:
2005-07-28

Amazing, Im really looking forward for this.

Reply Score: 1

I hope
by ronaldst on Sat 4th Feb 2006 02:26 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

this time it won't be just a "bunch of videos" on the web. And turn out to be something real.

Reply Score: 1

RE: I hope
by StringCheesian on Sat 4th Feb 2006 06:56 UTC in reply to "I hope"
StringCheesian Member since:
2005-07-06

Don't worry, it's real. I've been playing with it. The way it was built on my computer, KDE/Qt apps crash it - I don't know why. But I can start metacity and a few GTK apps to see all the cool effects (shadows, fade in/out, wobbly, etc). And on my nVidia geForce FX 7500 with the proprietary drivers it's fast and smooth.

Instructions to try it here:
http://www.hboeck.de/item/266

Gentoo Forums topic to discuss with other people trying it:
http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-386012.html

Reply Score: 3

animate window effect should be add
by rockmen1 on Sat 4th Feb 2006 03:14 UTC
rockmen1
Member since:
2006-02-04

The animation that window/menu shows up in Luminocity should be add to XGL,that's a cool stuff won't found in OSX and Vista.

Reply Score: 1

Funny
by markob on Sat 4th Feb 2006 11:47 UTC
markob
Member since:
2005-07-06

It's funny how people were drooling over videos and screenshots of XGL and Luminocity a year ago, wanting this on their machines. Now, that we're days away from actualy having this (I hope) on our desktops...now what the hell do you want? Ran out of things to piss on?!

There is nothing new to see on these videos, yeah, but unlike last year, we can see XGL being presented by Novell, not just some video from a geek's room....and that is so bad...why?! There isn't much you can "invent", some practices, like Expose, were accepted by users as really good, also zooming (I could really use it in website development, where checking pixels) and task switching is FINALLY getting somewhere.

I really don't understand some people, this is a huge step forward for Linux desktop. Would you REALLY rather still have slow jerky desktop and a total piece crap called Metacity that does basicaly nothing and is evolving at same speed as nature? Fine by me, maybe in 2031 it'll start supporting shadows, yeah baby! *drool*

Edited 2006-02-04 11:49

Reply Score: 4

RE: Funny
by Lumbergh on Sat 4th Feb 2006 23:12 UTC in reply to "Funny"
Lumbergh Member since:
2005-06-29

I really don't understand some people, this is a huge step forward for Linux desktop. Would you REALLY rather still have slow jerky desktop and a total piece crap called Metacity that does basicaly nothing and is evolving at same speed as nature? Fine by me, maybe in 2031 it'll start supporting shadows, yeah baby! *drool*

I know I'd rather have my tens of millions of GPU transistors doing something rather than twiddling their thumbs.

Reply Score: 4

release
by tubbablub on Sun 5th Feb 2006 04:12 UTC
tubbablub
Member since:
2006-02-05

Does any one know we when this going to be released

Reply Score: 1

RE: release
by Aussie_Bear on Sun 5th Feb 2006 22:33 UTC in reply to "release"
Aussie_Bear Member since:
2006-01-12

I am curious if they would add this capability to a future OpenSUSE version!

Reply Score: 1