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Well, you are wrong.

I am one of these "linux-based motorola phones" user. I own a E680i and it's my main phone.

And yes, the fact that Motorola does not give away the SDK is a major problem for me and others users of these phones. Customers who buy these phones buy them BECAUSE they think they are marketed as "smartphones". But they aren't. Smartphones are phones that offer the ability to write third party NATIVE apps, it's not just the choice of the operating system that defines a smartphone or not.

And so, no, the E680i does not do everything I need it to do out of the box. There is no IM client for example. There is no a unit converter and there are no java games that support its special landscape mode and extra gaming buttons. These are all great unique phone features that a NATIVE app would be easily able to take advantage of. But nooooo.... Motorola has to play it snob and not offer an SDK. It sucks. And I say this with a very honest grudge, because as I said, I own one of these phones and I want it to do MORE. And the sad part is that the phone CAN do more. It has a bloody 312 Mhz ARM CPU with 32 MBs of RAM, QVGA 2.5" touchscreen, 50 MBs of internal storage and a full SD slot. This phone can do a LOT. But Motorola doesn't let it to!

Edited 2006-02-07 01:48

There is no a unit converter and there are no java games that support its special landscape mode and extra gaming buttons. These are all great unique phone features that a NATIVE app would be easily able to take advantage of. But nooooo.... Motorola has to play it snob and not offer an SDK

There's no way to access these through JNI ? I know you can use JNI on Nokia phones at least, why would Motorolla be any different ?

The point is to have native apps. That look like the rest of the interface instead of the crappy, ugly looking, slow java stuff that are out there today.

Pity one can't mod up OSN Staff, I couldn't agree more!

Motorola *will not have my money*. Vote with your wallet.

@eugenia: to sum it up you complain about your phone not having features that were not listed in the specs?

I complain for the fact that it was marketed as a smartphone (which means that there is the ability for native apps), and it in reality it was not a smartphone because Motorola doesn't publish the SDK. So, yes, you can very well say that the specs were not accurate when claiming that these devices are "smartphones".

I complain for the fact that it was marketed as a smartphone (which means that there is the ability for native apps), and it in reality it was not a smartphone because Motorola doesn't publish the SDK.

Wikipedia defined smartphone as follows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone) :

"A smartphone is any electronic handheld device that integrates the functionality of a mobile phone, personal digital assistant or other information appliance. This is often achieved by adding telephone functions to an existing PDA or putting "smart" capabilities, such as PDA functions, into a mobile phone. A key feature of a smartphone is that additional applications can be installed on the device. The applications can be developed by the manufacturer of the handheld device, by the operator or by any other third-party software developer."

No mention that apps have to be native. I looked it up because I thought it strange such a requirement would be included.

>A key feature of a smartphone is that additional applications can be installed on the device.

The wikipedia definition is simply incomplete. The apps MUST BE native for a smartphone to be a smartphone. By the current wikipedia definition even the Sony Ericsson K300i with 128x128 resolution is a smartphone. Sorry, but that definition is simply not defined correctly.

The wikipedia definition is simply incomplete. The apps MUST BE native for a smartphone to be a smartphone. By the current wikipedia definition even the Sony Ericsson K300i with 128x128 resolution is a smartphone. Sorry, but that definition is simply not defined correctly.

As a recently registered Wikipedia user, may I suggest that you edit the definition to make it more accurate?

Wikipedia is only going to improve itself if we all contribute within our areas of expertise... :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone

"A key feature of a smartphone is that additional applications can be installed on the device. The applications can be developed by the manufacturer of the handheld device, by the operator or by any other third-party software developer."


Above clearly say that people can hack it ... Operator IS the end user in the Phone industry the one selling the phone is a carrier.

"BREW and J2ME devices allow for the installation of additional applications but are still not considered smartphones. There are many BREW devices with PDA functionality, the ability to run third-party applications in native code and sporting displays as large as 240x320 pixels; yet they are not considered smartphones."

The above say that it snot the possibility to add feature that make them smartphones , Its the hacking possibility.

"Customers who buy these phones buy them BECAUSE they think they are marketed as "smartphones". But they aren't."

Uh wait, what customers "think* Motorola market them as?
That's quite different from what Motorola *do* market them as.
What you *think* they are doing is not really relevant.
If it doesnt do what you *think* it would do, as opposed what they said it would do but doesnt, that's noones fault but your own.

Though I understand what you mean to some degree, you have to also keep in mind what the article said; Microsoft even releases some type of SDK so people can actually develop 3rd party applications natively. I see what you mean, as people can get picky around the GPL, and I don't know whether they are breaking GPL guidelines or not, but you would think they could release at least the SDK so other companies can work on programs. It seems like they wouldn't be taking away from business but rather adding onto it, if anything. Though 99.99% of the population doesn't care about those things, there's a large chunk of those people who would be more likely to buy this phone in particular if they had special other applications created for it which hit that shiny bling-bling factor, don't you think? That's how I see it, at least.

"let's establish the playing field by saying that 99.99% of end users"

Definately not , most end user appreciate the possibility to be able to do more and have other people offer them plug-ins and the likes , where do you think Wallpapper , Ringtones , videotones , text messaging and all the other options came from ? Thats right other user beeing able to hack there phones.

"The end users don't care what OS their phone runs, just as long as it works, has the neat-o shiny features that they like (useless cameras, useless ringtones, etc.), and looks pretty."

Wrong again , take the Motorola RAZR V3 for example it whas first used by the tech who picked it up because it whas running GNU/Linux , then some people saw the tech wearing it and tought if theyre using it it must be the best phones to get. The some tech started modding them to be different from the normal crowd ...

" So the answer to the question is "No, it is not a miss for end users"."

The answer is definately , YES , because then the phone will become obsolete if a cool new app cant be made to run on it.

" The only users that ... demographic to a corporation like Motorola. "

The funny thing is Motorola started to loose sales because they where using BSD based phones , GNU/Linux demographic is a powerfull group of buyers with real money.

"The sense of entitlement ... is sometimes astounding."

Now your just ranting and bashing based on your own wishfull thinking. You like to mix in a jabs and push your same old diatribe that people just dont care about GNU/Linux.

"Rather than just abiding by the GPL (even if with difficulty)"

If the GPL whas difficult it would not be used , again with your false already proven absolutely wrong argumentation.

"No, I don't want ... want all of that!"

My first tought would be why the hell not its not like they dont include the cost of R&D in there sale , But then again I know first hand that unlike you there smart , they whant to be the one to introduce new software on it , so that if they control it all , they get to charge people for newer applications and people have to buy it directly and only from them.

If your argumentation would have been valid the SDK would have been included in the box just to shut up the noisy people that you wrongly think is at 1% , but then again your numbers are wrong and so does your argumentation , they dont include it because they whant to control that source of income. This would be the Management answers : "If nobody going to use it , just to get ride of Judicial trouble with the GPL and shut up the noisy people give it all away or for minimal cost "

Johnny is Johnny Cannuck , Johnny Cannuck and he always get whant he whant , because he CAN , Because he is from CANADA , You cant understand that , your not really a CANADIAN you just live there and complain.

LIP most people do CARE , otherwise nothing in GNU/Linux would exist , it whas built by the people who cared.

"That BSD jab was also quite humorous. :-)"

Funny how he manages to do that even in articles that has nothing to do with BSD, isnt it? He'll even make stuff up to pick at BSD

"Moullineuf "

LIP , as I previously stated my Name is Moulinneuf , it smy real name too , I aint a coward like you hidding behind a nick. This just show that copy paste is broken on your OS of choice ...

Yeah, OS X doesn't do copy/paste. It's a real piece of junk, this.

My real name is in my profile. Looks like point-and-click is broken in your OS of choice. And how ...

"OS X doesn't do copy/paste. It's a real piece of junk, this."

Broken is not the same as piece of Junk , I suspect your the main reason why its currently broken.

ever tried these ?

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75459

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61543

I tought your real name whas :

http://www.tomchu.com

Sorry I missed that part or you edited it recently , still dont see why you need LIP.

why are you ashamed of Tom Karpik ?

If point and click whas broken I would have real problem replying of even coming to the site because to start a browser one needs to point and click ...

"Maybe you live in a country of tech geniuses"

No Maybee , its a definite yes. You would know if you whent outside once in a while. EA is in CANADA and as an office in Vancouver , ATI is from CANADA , DELL as its biggest service center in North America in CANADA , INTEL CPU design Center ( Dual core and yonah ) is in CANADA and Israël etc ...

"but over here"

You *live* in CANADA , I am so waiting for the day you go and live elsewhere.

" people could seriously care less what operating system their phone runs."

Someone need to point this out to you , its not because yourself and two of your little friends dont care that its means its the majority.

People who own stock in BenQ, Ericsson, Panasonic, Nokia, Siemens AG and Sony Ericsson whant people who use phones to run Symbian OS , why ? because those company own it.

People owning share and working for Microsoft whant people to use Microsoft Windows CE / Windows Mobile , why ? why ? because that company own it.

People who whant real freedom and advancement for all human beeings whant GNU/Linux , because of the GPL.

"Get in touch with reality"

Coming from the guy who's name is Linux Is Poo , look yourself up in a mirror.

"That BSD jab"

What BSD Jab ? Do a search for the OS that where in use by motorola phones in 1994 - 2002. I know because GNU/Linux kicked them out , for your info SLVR , ROKR ,
RAZR where all supposed to be BSD phone.

I think the BSD nugget was disproven by a guy who replied to you earlier.

As for geniuses in Canada ... yes, we've got quite a few tech companies in and around Vancouver, but that doesn't mean that the majority of people who use cell phones care what OS it runs.

As proof of that fact, I just asked everyone at my workplace that very question, and they all said they don't really care, as long as it works.

"I think"

No , but thats my personnal opinion ;-)

"the BSD nugget was disproven by a guy who replied to you earlier. "

No , Its 100% accurate. Of course , no one will be finding BSD code in the GNU/Linux version.

"As for geniuses in Canada"

No , we got the best in the world. Its time people where reminded of that.

"but that doesn't mean that the majority of people who use cell phones care what OS it runs. "

Hey , look , something I can agree with , too bad it took 10 + insulting message and bashing comment until you said it.

"As proof of that fact"

I dont think a pool of 10 - 20 people , is going to make an accurate figure without data to back it up. We dont even know what question you really asked.

"and they all said they don't really care"

People who think alike associate with each others.

"as long as it works."

Like the cellphone industry is only based on it working properly. They all have 9 + years old phones that look like a small brick , right ?

Btw Cool mod on the Ibook , you could make some money if you started selling the service to others and MAc shops.

No, it didn't take "10+ insulting messages" to get the message across. As a matter of fact, it was one of my very first statements in the first post (the one that got this entire thread started):

"Now consider this: The end users don't care what OS their phone runs, just as long as it works, has the neat-o shiny features that they like (useless cameras, useless ringtones, etc.), and looks pretty. "

The question I asked was "Do you care what operating system your cell phone runs?" Getting pretty much the same answer from a *very technology-oriented group* should lend insight how much somewhat-geeky people care about their cell phone OS, not to mention the general masses.

Thanks, by the way. Unfortunately, it's not exactly original/creative, though I'm thinking about modding someone else's iBook with the classic rainbow Apple logo -- if she lets me.

"No, it didn't take "10+ insulting messages" to get the message across."

Ok , so you dont know that :

"let's establish the playing field by saying that 99.99% of end users will NOT be third-party devs wanting to hack Linux on this phone."

and

"The only users that are unhappy are the 0.001% that bought the phone with the intention to hack it"

is not the same at all as :

"but that doesn't mean that the majority of people who use cell phones care what OS it runs. "

"As a matter of fact, it was one of my very first statements in the first post (the one that got this entire thread started): "

Nope see above. Nice try but one is total extreme ( 99.99% ) the other is acurate and moderate.

"The question I asked was "Do you care what operating system your cell phone runs?" "

Thats what I meant , people dont "care" about anything until it blows up in there face , risk to kill them or is stealing money from them and they realised it.

Ask do you care about how people drill the gas you put in your car. Answers your gonna get is no.

Do you care about the price of gas ? ( now it become personnal there going to say yes.

"Getting pretty much the same answer from a *very technology-oriented group* should lend insight how much somewhat-geeky people care about their cell phone OS, not to mention the general masses. "

No , because you asked them if they care , and a group of 20 people using 20 different phone is not going to make the same connection as someone who bought the phone. With Polls you can make people agree to vote in Usama Bin laden as prime minister if you ask the right questions. I remember a taste test Poll who asked do you like pizza with pineapple. everyone who tasted it said yes , The real question that should have been asked whas would you buy such a pizza , the real answer whas no.

The way I see it if someone whant the software to hack the phone , we should all protect is right so that if we whant to its still there , because we paid for that to be included. Even if I personnaly dont care to hack the phone. I like to have the choice later on if I change my mind.

"it's not exactly original/creative"

Bah your too harsh and demanding on yourself ;-)

"though I'm thinking about modding someone else's iBook with the classic rainbow Apple logo"

Take pic ;-)

The funny thing is Motorola started to loose sales because they where using BSD based phones , GNU/Linux demographic is a powerfull group of buyers with real money.
BSD? I have no idea where you got this from, but i doubt there's any truth in it. I spent years on motorola.howardforums.com, the biggest motorola phone forums, and i never once heard of this. Also i, and many others have hacked/researched the firmwares of those phones motorola made, which supposedly are based on bsd, and we never ever found one string which said anything like "Regents of California" or something like that. AFAIK the BSD license does require this, so either they're in violation of license and changed all the strings, or it's simply not true. Violation of the license is an option too though, since they didn't included the GPL with any of their later Linux phones too.

I'm not sure why you'd expect them to, but C comments don't show up in the resulting executables.

Thanks, i know that, but if you've ever did a "string" on some binary BSD program it always has some notice like "Copyright xxxx-xxxx regents of university of California, or something like that.

I just ran "strings" on /usr/bin/fortune and there's not a copyright notice to be found. Too bad I don't have a FreeBSD machine anymore or I could give you a few more examples.

Anyway, all the BSD license states is that the license text, the comments at the top of the source code, needs to remain there if the source code is distributed.

This isn't to say that there aren't any binaries out there with a bsd copyright notice right inside them. But just because you don't find that inside a binary doesn't necessarily mean it's not BSD licensed code.

Edited 2006-02-07 19:57

You criticizing someone else for being arrogant and argumentative? Bravo, sir, a brilliant comedic turn.

No, I'm criticizing someone for having the most absurd definition of a term, simply because that's the way she wants it to be.

Ok the telcos don't care for the milion Treo 600/650/700 and ms smartphones, right.