Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 8th Feb 2006 22:42 UTC, submitted by danwarne
Mac OS X "The Unofficial Apple Weblog has posted a short story on the top five mistakes made by new Mac users. It includes closing an application window and thinking it has quit, downloading software and then running it from the disk image (runs slowly, can't eject disk image), and Windows .exe files littered around the desktop after they've tried to download software and install it. The comments attached to the article are entertaining, and pick up many other common mistakes. Here's a precise list of things that TUAW and its users said in comments, and a few of my own."
Order by: Score:
They forgot one.
by betson on Wed 8th Feb 2006 23:24 UTC
betson
Member since:
2005-12-17

Their very first mistake was buying Mac OS X! Bwah hah hah!

Naw, just messing with you. Gotcha.

I have to know, though:

3) .exe files lie scattered around the desktop from aborted downloads of Flash Player or some screensaver-cursor-spyware doodad.

Is that one for real? Has anyone using OS X actually that kind of software magicially appear on their desktop? Short of the user trying to download and install it themself, of course.

I think that most web sites now-a-days correctly detect when you're running un an "unsupported" operating system and aren't stupid enough to try and serve you up an .exe or an .rpm if you're running under OS X, for instance.

Reply Score: 2

RE: They forgot one.
by JustAnotherMacUser on Wed 8th Feb 2006 23:41 UTC in reply to "They forgot one."
JustAnotherMacUser Member since:
2006-01-08

Is that one for real? Has anyone using OS X actually that kind of software magicially appear on their desktop? Short of the user trying to download and install it themself, of course.

Apple recently introduced a pop-up warning that a download is a application and gets the user the choice to continue or abort.

But yes for many years us Mac managers were plaqued with icons appearing on the desktop that looked like a file, but was a application.

Because doubleclicking on a file launches it's associated application.

Also Apple has insituted a "first time" application launch warning, so the option to cancel is there, before the trojan wipes the user folder out.

Still stuff can appear on the desktop by simply visiting a site, but tricking the user to get it to run is a bit more difficult.

Mac users are especially vunerable to phishing scams that incorporate a trojan that requires a admin password.

More and more regular software seems to require this admin password to run, to install their copy protection schemes or provide a "speed benefit" as Apple does nothing to educate it's user base on the dangers of releasing admin passwords to programs.

A lot has to do with third party software makers wanting more control, give better features or some other excuse, like marketing info to run as root. Mac OS X doesn't even provide a outgoing firewall or log all network connections, just the blocked incoming ones.

All a third party program has to do is ask for a admin password and most Mac users will simply give it.

Mac OS X doesn't even play gatekeeper, like it should.

Edited 2006-02-08 23:46

Reply Score: 5

It seems...
by JustAnotherMacUser on Wed 8th Feb 2006 23:27 UTC
JustAnotherMacUser
Member since:
2006-01-08

...a lot of these mistakes are by new Mac users coming from Windows.

On top of that it seems the new Mac users making mistakes were also not very good at Windows or computers in general, or they would have stayed using Windows.

It's easier to stick with the devil you know.

Reply Score: 5

RE: It seems...
by John Nilsson on Wed 8th Feb 2006 23:50 UTC in reply to "It seems..."
John Nilsson Member since:
2005-07-06

On top of that it seems the new Mac users making mistakes were also not very good at Windows or computers in general, or they would have stayed using Windows.

Which makes this an interesting usabillity "study".

Reply Score: 1

RE: It seems...
by Varg Vikernes on Thu 9th Feb 2006 01:48 UTC in reply to "It seems..."
Varg Vikernes Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not a biggie. Some of the things mentioned are really retarded, and you can only blame Apple for it. But on the other side you can't expect people won't have trouble controling a versatile device such as a computer.

I imagine users having the most trouble are older users or kids who've never used a computer before and therefo don't know jack about it. For example I know an older dude who literally didn't know how to launch an application.

But then again, there are probably computer classes in every hgih school by now, so future generations shouldn't have much problems.

edit: there's a nice quote from Linus; "If you think your users are idiots, only idiots will use it".

Edited 2006-02-09 01:50

Reply Score: 1

RE: It seems...
by modmans2ndcoming on Thu 9th Feb 2006 14:13 UTC in reply to "It seems..."
modmans2ndcoming Member since:
2005-11-09

I switched, and I have a BS in Computer Science and Mathematics, plus I have been a network admin for 3 years.

Leo LaPorte is certainly not a moron with computers, but his platform of choice is OS X.

so... what other stereo types do you have?

Reply Score: 1

Is it me?
by Finchwizard on Thu 9th Feb 2006 00:55 UTC
Finchwizard
Member since:
2006-02-01

Is it me? Or does the title say 30, and then links to 5?

That said, just when you think people can't be any more stupid, they usually are.

Trying to explain some things like Icons and shortcuts is enough to through some people.

Heck, don't even need to have the computer turned to through people.

"My screen says 'No signal' "
"Is your computer turned on?"
"Ahhh, nevermind"

It happens too.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Is it me?
by Celerate on Thu 9th Feb 2006 04:06 UTC in reply to "Is it me?"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

The second link with the text "precise list" is the one with the list of 30 things.

Reply Score: 1

Usability
by mattst88 on Thu 9th Feb 2006 01:15 UTC
mattst88
Member since:
2005-08-27

"28. Expecting “home” and “end” keys to go the beginning and end of a line, rather than beginning and end of a document."

WTF, why should the Home and End keys do *anything* but go to the beginning and end of the lines. Beginning and end of the document you say? Retarded. Absolutely retarded.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Usability
by Shane on Thu 9th Feb 2006 02:21 UTC in reply to "Usability"
Shane Member since:
2005-07-06

Why not? The fact that it's different doesn't make it retarded. Here's why it makes sense:

When navigating through a document, right arrow key will move the cursor one character to the right. Option+right arrow will move one word to the right. Command+right arrow moves to the end of that line. Left arrow combinations work in a similar way.

Makes sense now doesn't it? I actually find it faster to move around this way now. Since I'm pressing the arrow keys anyway, adding a modifier is fast. There's no need to hunt for the home and end buttons, especially on a laptop keyboard.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Usability
by JustThinkIt on Thu 9th Feb 2006 04:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Usability"
JustThinkIt Member since:
2005-09-04

The fact that it's different doesn't make it retarded. Here's why it makes sense: When navigating through a document, right arrow key will move the cursor one character to the right. Option+right arrow will move one word to the right. Command+right arrow moves to the end of that line. Left arrow combinations work in a similar way. Makes sense now doesn't it?

Ah, no it doesn't make sense. Given that computers originated as line-oriented devices, home and end keys have (or should have) obvious functions relating to the line one is on. Infinitely arrogant Jobs, as mentioned above, insults his users (one mouse button forever) yet then expects them to know NON OBVIOUS shortcut keys (or be taught such keys by equally arrogant Mac fanatics).

Those would be acceptable "accelerator" keys if they were in addition to home/end, control-home/control-end. Gates clearly understands the need for multiple ways of doing things. Jobs clearly understands how to be an expletive.

The enter versus return key decision is another bizarre Macism. Maybe the fanatics ship each Mac with a special camera so they can watch the "idiots" press the wrong key. Ditto the two delete keys that have different functions.

The Mac faithful always always always rave about their product -- it so great, so fast, so easy to use everyone should have one -- yet the glaring defects, deficiencies and lies (e.g. Macs are always "the world's fastest computers", yet now that they have come to intel they are the fastest intel computers and many times faster than those Macs....puhlease) continue for DECADES.

The resize corner (let's call it the penalty box) is a gross defect. I like being able to resize a window by the corner/edge I choose because otherwise I have to resize then move repeatedly to get it right where I want it. If you put the window where you want it, then resizing in Windows is a single click & drag operation -- it is impossible to be more efficient than that.

It is quite amusing that the writer of this article calls these "new user mistakes" when at least half a dozen are glaring Apple design mistakes and another half a dozen are reasonable assumptions by Windows users (i.e. the vast majority of ALL users).

The Mac "apple" key is unleveraged, it doesn't do "something else". This is by no means a new user mistake. The apple key _could_ do something else, but it appears to be easier to attack "new users" (i.e. anyone not fully brainwashed by Apple)

The Mac doesn't let you maximize a window, yet it puts the menus at the top of the screen! That is truly a bizarre pair of decisions. "We control your window display _and_ we want you to dart your eyes away from your window and back again FOREVER! {diabolical laugh}"

Encouraging/expecting users of any stripe to "hide" applications is stupid. A computer is an information appliance, it is meant to present information. Hiding is for useless Vista toolbars.

I once had to work on a Power Mac that was littered with downloads on the desktop -- how truly ugly. No one knew how to change/edit non-functioning menu items either. Love that ease of use!

But my personal favorite is either (1) blaming new user inability to work with documents on a Windows-centric mentality instead of blaming those stupid menus at the top...that change when you change apps; or (2) a folder copy wiping out everything already there, instead of merging with it. Can't OSX be prosecuted in this case for "doing harm"?

Floyd
http://www.just-think-it.com

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Usability
by ApproachingZero on Thu 9th Feb 2006 04:36 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Usability"
ApproachingZero Member since:
2005-11-10

>>Infinitely arrogant Jobs, as mentioned above, insults his users (one mouse button forever)

GOD WILL YOU GUYS QUIT POSTING THIS LIE? Click this link and educate yourselves a little, okay?

http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Usability
by JustThinkIt on Thu 9th Feb 2006 05:21 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Usability"
JustThinkIt Member since:
2005-09-04

Infinitely arrogant Jobs, as mentioned above, insults his users (one mouse button forever)

WILL YOU GUYS QUIT POSTING THIS LIE?

20 years _is_ forever in the computer world. Other glaring mistakes continue to be made to this day. Ah, the insanity.

Floyd
http://www.just-think-it.com

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Usability
by ApproachingZero on Thu 9th Feb 2006 06:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Usability"
ApproachingZero Member since:
2005-11-10

20 years _is_ forever in the computer world.

If I say "Seinfeld will be in production forever", by your logic that's a true statement since it was true for a long time?

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Usability
by vikramsharma on Thu 9th Feb 2006 06:53 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Usability"
vikramsharma Member since:
2005-07-06

Jobs might be arrogant and so are many other CEO's. Apple was selling one button mouse for ease of use, you always had a choice of buying a 3rd party multi-button mouse. Most of the computer manufacturers leaving out one or two sell pcs preloaded with windows no one complains about not being able to install linux or freebsd. You always had a choice, it's just a way of looking at things.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Usability
by cilcoder on Thu 9th Feb 2006 05:31 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Usability"
cilcoder Member since:
2005-07-06

The home and end buttons don't say anything about lines on them. I will admit that it takes some getting used to after to using other OSes but it's just different not retarded. As for computers originally being line based and all that.. Why do they have a page up and page down button then?

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Usability
by JustThinkIt on Thu 9th Feb 2006 06:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Usability"
JustThinkIt Member since:
2005-09-04

As for computers originally being line based and all that.. Why do they have a page up and page down button then?

The line-oriented mainframe metaphor carried over to computer screens. When you edited your Fortran source on a terminal, you used the pgup and pgdn keys to go up and down one screen (usually 25 lines). DOS word processors continued this 25 line idea, ultimately replaced by the thumb (that advanced a visual screen at a time).

One set of keys does not have to relate to another, of course. The Windows key came out of nowhere, as did the scroll wheel. What mystifies me is why Jobs is such a limiter of users. When the Mac OS is not designed for more than one button, all applications follow suit so that even when multi button mice are available there is now an application lag (and upgrade cost) just to move into the 20th Century.

Floyd
http://www.just-think-it.com

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Usability
by JohnG on Thu 9th Feb 2006 11:54 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Usability"
JohnG Member since:
2006-02-09

"When the Mac OS is not designed for more than one button, all applications follow suit so that even when multi button mice are available there is now an application lag (and upgrade cost) just to move into the 20th Century."

I've never had any problems with using a multiple buttoned mouse on OSX.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Usability
by JustThinkIt on Fri 10th Feb 2006 05:14 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Usability"
JustThinkIt Member since:
2005-09-04

"When the Mac OS is not designed for more than one button, all applications follow suit so that even when multi button mice are available there is now an application lag (and upgrade cost) just to move into the 20th Century."

I've never had any problems with using a multiple buttoned mouse on OSX.

We are not talking "problems", we are talking "not designed for" -- as in, not optimized for, not taking advantage of. Works, but why did you bother with a multi button mouse when I (the old application) don't care.

Floyd
http://www.just-think-it.com

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Usability
by mallard on Thu 9th Feb 2006 13:30 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Usability"
mallard Member since:
2006-01-06

"When the Mac OS is not designed for more than one button, all applications follow suit so that even when multi button mice are available there is now an application lag (and upgrade cost) just to move into the 20th Century."

Huh?? Mac OS X *IS* designed for two mouse buttons. OS X is based on NeXTStep/OpenStep. The NeXT cube had two mouse buttons. NeXTStep had context-sensitive right-click menus (before even Windows did) and OS X has them in nearly every application.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Usability
by haugland on Thu 9th Feb 2006 08:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Usability"
haugland Member since:
2005-07-07

So let us all just stick to a 30+ year old idea, instead of doing what will be best today.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Usability
by Shane on Thu 9th Feb 2006 06:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Usability"
Shane Member since:
2005-07-06

I am not going to engage in a point-by-point rebuttal of your post. I am not interested in defending the way Macs and OS X behave, because, like for any other operating systems, the UI decisions in OS X are somewhat arbitrary. They entirely depend on your familiarity with the conventions chosen.

I will instead try to address the root cause of your complaints. You can either approach anything new with an open mind and work with it, or you can adopt the attitude that it sucks because it does not work like some other thing that you have grown used to.

[Edit: typo]

Edited 2006-02-09 06:21

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Usability
by lunddal on Thu 9th Feb 2006 10:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Usability"
lunddal Member since:
2006-02-09

"Ah, no it doesn't make sense. Given that computers originated as line-oriented devices, home and end keys have (or should have) obvious functions relating to the line one is on."

Hmm, the keys are labeled with arrows pointing to the top left corner and the bottom right corner. If they were supposed to go the start or end of a line they would have horisontal arrows.


"The enter versus return key decision is another bizarre Macism. Maybe the fanatics ship each Mac with a special camera so they can watch the "idiots" press the wrong key. Ditto the two delete keys that have different functions. "

In 99,99% of applications, the two keys are exactly the same.

I don't know what a US keyboard looks like, but on international keyboards there is only one key labeled delete - and that's the forward delete key which also has the forward delete symbol on it.


"The Mac faithful always always always rave about their product -- it so great, so fast, so easy to use everyone should have one -- yet the glaring defects, deficiencies and lies (e.g. Macs are always "the world's fastest computers", yet now that they have come to intel they are the fastest intel computers and many times faster than those Macs....puhlease) continue for DECADES. "

And Microsoft isn't "lying" in ther ads? It's called marketing and it's all a big lie.


"The Mac doesn't let you maximize a window, yet it puts the menus at the top of the screen! That is truly a bizarre pair of decisions. "We control your window display _and_ we want you to dart your eyes away from your window and back again FOREVER! {diabolical laugh}" "

It's called Fitt's Law - read up on it.

In many ways the Windows UI is different from Mac OS' just to be different - and the result is a horrible UI screaming "carpal syndrome".


"Encouraging/expecting users of any stripe to "hide" applications is stupid. A computer is an information appliance, it is meant to present information. Hiding is for useless Vista toolbars. "

Why is it stupid? I don't need to look at my e-mail app all the time. And since most Windows users work in one app at a time by going full screen, they are basically hiding their app anyway.


"I once had to work on a Power Mac that was littered with downloads on the desktop -- how truly ugly."

Change it then. Most Windows users litter their desktops too.


"No one knew how to change/edit non-functioning menu items either."

Huh?


"But my personal favorite is either (1) blaming new user inability to work with documents on a Windows-centric mentality instead of blaming those stupid menus at the top..."

But it's a new Windows user's fault if he can't work with the documents in Mac-centric way? Jeez!!

Just because something is different from Windows doesn't make it retarded or stupid - especially not since the Mac way of doing precedes the Windows way.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Usability
by Jonny on Thu 9th Feb 2006 17:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Usability"
Jonny Member since:
2005-07-06

There are no arrows on the home and end keys on US keyboards. See:

http://www.spymac.com/upload/news/2005/09/27/m3261_Apple%20keyb...

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Usability
by thavith_osn on Thu 9th Feb 2006 20:37 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Usability"
thavith_osn Member since:
2005-07-11

I think the guy who posted this was trolling...

OS X is a two button OS, not one (as someone else here pointed out). OS X was designed with two mouse buttons in mind, and has always worked that way. If you used the mice from Apple *before* the mighty mouse, then you would have had to press the [ctrl] key to simulate the right mouse button. Some people like this, some don't. But there was noone stopping you from plugging in a two button mouse, right from when OS X first came out. I've always used a MS mouse by the way, I prefer them, even to the mighty mouse (I have one in a box now gathering dust)...

Why did Apple have mice with only 1 button? When the Mac OS was originally released in 84, it was designed with 1 mouse button in mind. Apple had the choice to go with a multi-button mouse, but made a decision way back then not to. Why, because they were trying to make a computer for the rest of the world (not for geeks). I think they persisted with it a little too long as by OS 8 the concept of a two button mouse on their OS was alive and well...

As for the home and end keys, I use both OS X and XP, and have to say I prefer the XP way, but that doesn't make it wrong on OS X, again, it was a design decision made a long time ago. The fact that computers used to be line based (keyboards having come from typewritters) isn't really an argument as most people reading this never owned a computer back then, and designers of OS's and interfaces can adjust where needed. With the advent of the GUI, the whole line based metaphor was no longer valid anyway.

Personally, I think Apple gets a lot right, and some things wrong (in my opinion), and Microsoft gets some things wrong, and some things right. Most of what they get right is due to looking at what Apple and others are doing and copying them - but that isn't a bad thing if they copy it well and they copy good ideas :-) [have a look at what Apple was doing when Windows 3.1 was out, then look at Win95]...

By the way, Apple will copy MS (and others (including Xerox)) where needed, a good example is cut/copy and pasting of files. Windows had this years before Apple did, but they eventually bit the bullet and went with it. You used to have to hold the mouse button down to keep a pull down menu in place. There are other things too.

By the way, hiding applications on a Mac is one of my favourite features!!! The fact that you can see the application is running by looking at the Dock I think was missed by the original poster.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Usability
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 9th Feb 2006 16:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Usability"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Given that computers originated as line-oriented devices, home and end keys have (or should have) obvious functions relating to the line one is on. Infinitely arrogant Jobs, as mentioned above, insults his users (one mouse button forever) yet then expects them to know NON OBVIOUS shortcut keys (or be taught such keys by equally arrogant Mac fanatics).

The fault in your point is that on a Mac keyboard, there are no home and end keys. There are two keys that have an arrow pointing down-right and top-left, but no home or end keys. Don't go making stuff up now, please.

The enter versus return key decision is another bizarre Macism. Maybe the fanatics ship each Mac with a special camera so they can watch the "idiots" press the wrong key. Ditto the two delete keys that have different functions.

Why is it stupid? Is it stupid because the keys don't behave the same as on your ps/2 keyboard? You see, the Mac keyboard and it's functions happen to be quite old, and just like the ps/2 keyboard, it evolved.

Would you call a German keyboard stupid because it says 'steuerung' instead of 'control'?

The resize corner (let's call it the penalty box) is a gross defect. I like being able to resize a window by the corner/edge I choose because otherwise I have to resize then move repeatedly to get it right where I want it. If you put the window where you want it, then resizing in Windows is a single click & drag operation -- it is impossible to be more efficient than that.

It's stupid just because it's different? I come from a BeOS world, and I am greatly pleased by the resize corner. Same as doubleclicking on a titlebar minimizes the window (like BeOS) instead of the utterly useless Windows maximize.

It is quite amusing that the writer of this article calls these "new user mistakes" when at least half a dozen are glaring Apple design mistakes and another half a dozen are reasonable assumptions by Windows users (i.e. the vast majority of ALL users).

Nonsense. Again, the Mac has been like this for ages-- in fact, the MacOS is older than Windows. So you could also say that Windows is doing everything wrong.

The Mac "apple" key is unleveraged, it doesn't do "something else". This is by no means a new user mistake. The apple key _could_ do something else, but it appears to be easier to attack "new users" (i.e. anyone not fully brainwashed by Apple)

The Apple key is the shortcut key. The end. Just because Windows keyboards have that stupid Windows key which always gets in the way due to accidental pressing, doesn't mean the rest of the world should adapt to this utterly useless key either.

The Mac doesn't let you maximize a window, yet it puts the menus at the top of the screen! That is truly a bizarre pair of decisions. "We control your window display _and_ we want you to dart your eyes away from your window and back again FOREVER! {diabolical laugh}"

Right. Get some fresh air.

Encouraging/expecting users of any stripe to "hide" applications is stupid. A computer is an information appliance, it is meant to present information. Hiding is for useless Vista toolbars.

Really, you are Windows-centric and everything else must be stupid just because you are not used to it. I assume you find all other languages than English stupid; all countries other than the US stupid, etc., etc., etc.

I once had to work on a Power Mac that was littered with downloads on the desktop -- how truly ugly. No one knew how to change/edit non-functioning menu items either. Love that ease of use!

"Once"? And yet you are commenting on difficult and complicated things like usability? Jesus, I just spent a good 5 minutes replying to someone criticizing a Mac after using it 'once'.

Can you please specify that at the beginning of your post next time?

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Usability
by Nedi on Thu 9th Feb 2006 20:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Usability"
Nedi Member since:
2006-02-09

The fault in your point is that on a Mac keyboard, there are no home and end keys. There are two keys that have an arrow pointing down-right and top-left, but no home or end keys. Don't go making stuff up now, please.

Here right in front of me on my iBook G4 there are 2 keys labeled
" (left arrow) home" and "end (right arrow)" ... guess you should check first before writing stuff ... ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Usability
by skingers6894 on Thu 9th Feb 2006 03:14 UTC in reply to "Usability"
skingers6894 Member since:
2005-08-10

While you may not agree with Apple's implementation, the fact that the buttons are labeled "Home" and "End" do leave their use open to interpretation. If the keys were labeled "Line Start" and "Line End" you might have a point about the retardedness of Apple. In this case however the only retarded thing seems to be your ability to understand that the world does not always conform to what we think is correct.

Reply Score: 4

Heh
by Varg Vikernes on Thu 9th Feb 2006 01:43 UTC
Varg Vikernes
Member since:
2005-07-06

8. Not using any keyboard shortcuts

I guess you can blame Stevie for this one. He thinks you're stupid and can't handle a multi button mouse, but he thinks you should remember all the 100+ shortcuts.

27. Confusing “delete” with “backspace” (because Apple has two keys named “delete” on the keyboard, one of which does forward delete and the other backward delete. Way to go, usability geniuses).

Way to go, usability geniuses.

29. Not realising that when you copy a folder over an existing one, OS X -replaces- the destination folder rather than merging the contents, which is what Windows does.

Ah, yes. We've been over that one several times here ;)

Most of the others are plain retarded and probably made up. i.e. 4. Using Safari’s Google search to get to a website

Reply Score: 2

RE: Heh
by jtrapp on Thu 9th Feb 2006 02:11 UTC in reply to "Heh"
jtrapp Member since:
2005-07-06

Most of the others are plain retarded and probably made up. i.e. 4. Using Safari’s Google search to get to a website

Nah,my boss does that in Firefox on Windows...

Most of the problems mentioned are just basic newbie problems, the same sorts of people do the same sorts of things on Windows.

The few issues left over are Apple design flaws. If a bunch of users are making the same mistakes then the problem does not reside with the user.


One of the things mentioned in the article was people double clicking on dock items. If I have a shortcut on my desktop that looks exactly like the shortcut in my dock, how am I supposed to know that one requires a double click and the other a single?

Many of the things listed contain the phrase "failing to understand...". Understanding comes with experience, it is not that the user is failing to understand, it is that the OS is failing to convey information.

A lot of what Apple does is non-evident. For instance, I used Safari for 2 months before I found out that if you click and hold the back and/or forward icons that you could choose which page in your history to jump to. I had tried right clicking, command clicking, command option clicking, etc...

I guess, the Mac won't change anything for me, I'm doomed to stay a dumb windows user and will have to bear snide articles like this forever.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Heh
by Peragrin on Thu 9th Feb 2006 14:32 UTC in reply to "RE: Heh"
Peragrin Member since:
2006-01-05

One of the things mentioned in the article was people double clicking on dock items. If I have a shortcut on my desktop that looks exactly like the shortcut in my dock, how am I supposed to know that one requires a double click and the other a single?


One of the things mentioned in the article was people double clicking on "quick launch" items. If I have a shortcut on my desktop that looks exactly like the shortcut in my "quick launch", how am I supposed to know that one requires a double click and the other a single?

There I fixed your mistake. Every windows computer has a quick launch bar, and System Tray Icons, both of which require single clicks to active functions.

As for the article, a numer of them are just how Mac's work. Not Better or Worse but different. If you can't deal with the minor difference's between OS's then pick one and ignore the others.

Oh and I have worked on hundreds of windows PC's with hundreds of entries in the start Menu forcing it to scroll several pages in width. People don't understand how they can sort and adjust that menu.

End result is that most users are to stupid to use a computer. Actually most users are to stupid to use a thermostat let alone more complicated machinery.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Heh
by jtrapp on Thu 9th Feb 2006 16:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Heh"
jtrapp Member since:
2005-07-06

I was neither ripping Apple nor promoting MS. I was simply stating that expecting the user to know when to single or double click is a design flaw. You rightly point out that Windows suffers from the same design flaw.

End result is that most users are to stupid to use a computer.

Not true. But spoken like a true fanatic.

I would argue the opposite, most computers are too hard for the average user. If you set 10 new users down in front of a computer and 3 or 4 make the same mistakes, then it is safe to assume that there is a design flaw. To imagine that "most" people are stupid and then to imagine yourself in a small elite group who "get it" is the mentality of a Jim Jones or a Josef Stalin. Unfortunately, many interface designers suffer from this same delusion; however, that does not make the average user stupid.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Heh
by lucas on Fri 10th Feb 2006 01:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Heh"
lucas Member since:
2005-07-08

I would argue the opposite, most computers are too hard for the average user. If you set 10 new users down in front of a computer and 3 or 4 make the same mistakes, then it is safe to assume that there is a design flaw
that same argument would apply if you put 10 people from 3rd world countries in cars and told them to drive it. cars arent hard to drive, but require some basic knowledge and understanding. making cars "easier" would not be benificial, it would just result in more clueless idiots on the roads. instead they require you learn to use the tool and prove you can in a licence test.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Heh
by jsight on Thu 9th Feb 2006 03:21 UTC in reply to "Heh"
jsight Member since:
2005-07-06

Most of the others are plain retarded and probably made up. i.e. 4. Using Safari’s Google search to get to a website

That's definitely not made up. I used to run a small specialized search engine for auctions, and you'd be amazed at the number of people that would put in "www.ebay.com", or "auctions.yahoo.com". ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Heh
by r3m0t on Thu 9th Feb 2006 07:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Heh"
r3m0t Member since:
2005-07-25

'That's definitely not made up. I used to run a small specialized search engine for auctions, and you'd be amazed at the number of people that would put in "www.ebay.com", or "auctions.yahoo.com". ;) '

Actually, I usually think that that's because they set it as their home page and the textbox steals focus... so their typing enters the search box. Just my 2p.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Heh
by ApproachingZero on Thu 9th Feb 2006 04:34 UTC in reply to "Heh"
ApproachingZero Member since:
2005-11-10

guess you can blame Stevie for this one. He thinks you're stupid and can't handle a multi button mouse

No he doesn't. Ever heard of the Mighty Mouse? It ships with all new Macs (except the mini which doesn't come with a mouse), it's touch-sensitive to detect left and right clicks, it's got a 360-degree scrollwheel, and two additional buttons on the sides.

Having converted many ex-Windows users to the Mac in the last few years, let me add to my own list the mistakes I see people make all the time.

1. Looking for the CD/DVD eject button on the Mac itself. That's just funny to watch. I remember when I was a new Mac user it did take me an embarassingly long time to realize the eject button is on the keyboard.

2. Accidentally dragging an icon off the dock when attempting a very sloppy double-click. It disappears in a puff of smoke and they have no idea how to get it back. I think Apple should have the "lock icons in the dock" option turned on by default and force users who don't change this default to do the right-click "keep in dock" to add an icon to the dock. Drag and drop causes too many problems.

3. The Windows keyboard shortcuts for cut, copy and paste for some reason on a Mac are Apple+x, Apple+c, and Apple+v instead of ctrl+ x, c & v. This even causes me problems because I need to go back and forth between Windows and OS X several times a day and it always screws me up. I really wish Apple would change it to use ctrl instead. The location of the ctrl key vs. the Apple key makes the ctrl combinations easier to use and it would help everybody out if there were just one standard on this. I think these are the keyboard commands people use most often.

4. A lot of new Mac users think that they can't choose the exact location to save a file, since by default the Save dialog opens in a simplified mode that only lets you choose the Desktop, the Home folder or the Documents folder and some others. You have to click the little down arrow next to the file name box to switch the dialog box to advanced mode to be able to select the exact folder to save the file to. To a Windows user, that little down arrow looks like the Windows down arrow in the Windows save dialogs that no one uses (because it's useless), so they never think to try clicking on it.

5. iTunes ships with very junked-up interface by default now, what with all those ugly arrows next to every title, artist and album that represent links to the Music store, and that new Mini-store window taking up the bottom of the screen, and a bunch of stupid playlists no one wants. New users fail to turn these annoying "features" off for themselves so I always have to do it for them. Maybe that one's not a mistake, more of my personal preference, but I think Apple should strive to keep iTunes looking clean and simple and not turn it into a Frankenstein's monster like RealOne or Windows Media Player.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Heh
by simo on Thu 9th Feb 2006 12:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Heh"
simo Member since:
2006-01-09

"4. A lot of new Mac users think that they can't choose the exact location to save a file, since by default the Save dialog opens in a simplified mode that only lets you choose the Desktop, the Home folder or the Documents folder and some others. You have to click the little down arrow next to the file name box to switch the dialog box to advanced mode to be able to select the exact folder to save the file to"

So that's where the Gnome guys got that stupid idea from!

This is one of my biggest pet-hates of Linux at the moment, it's such a stupid system to automatically save to the Desktop (what a stupid place to put files!) and what's worse is that to save it elsewhere - like in a subfolder of your $HOME directory - requires a couple of extra clicks to unhide the option!

Oh and the "using Google to go to websites" thing is very odd to me, I know at least 4 very computer-literate people who do that, CAN'T YOU SEE THE URL BAR? Don't you hate having to type a url and then click a link before going to every site? This annoys me so much I remove the fast search thing from their Firefoxes and stop the default homepage being Google, I mean come on, Google knows every site you visit if you do this....

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Heh
by jonathan on Fri 10th Feb 2006 13:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Heh"
jonathan Member since:
2006-02-10

You can also use Firefox ordinary URL field to do an "I'm Feeling Lucky" search. One friend of mine just types the name of the page he want to go to and relies on Google that it will be the correct page! It's a fast way to go where you want.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Heh
by mallard on Thu 9th Feb 2006 13:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Heh"
mallard Member since:
2006-01-06

"3. The Windows keyboard shortcuts for cut, copy and paste for some reason on a Mac are Apple+x, Apple+c, and Apple+v instead of ctrl+ x, c & v. This even causes me problems because I need to go back and forth between Windows and OS X several times a day and it always screws me up. I really wish Apple would change it to use ctrl instead. The location of the ctrl key vs. the Apple key makes the ctrl combinations easier to use and it would help everybody out if there were just one standard on this. I think these are the keyboard commands people use most often."

I find that very easy, the "Apple" (actually called Command) button is the Mac equivelent of CTRL. It's used in all the same places as CTRL on Windows. If you think about it that way then it becomes very simple to understand. The CTRL button on the Mac keyboard is almost never used.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Heh
by djame on Thu 9th Feb 2006 15:47 UTC in reply to "Heh"
djame Member since:
2005-07-08

>29. Not realising that when you copy a folder over an >existing one, OS X -replaces- the destination folder >rather than merging the contents, which is what Windows >does.
>
>Ah, yes. We've been over that one several times here ;)

you wanna laugh ? nautilus still has it...
they were not even consistant since gnome 1.4 through gmc had the merge option by default (at least, it asked)
nautilus just don't care...

at least mac os X is consistent since finder 1.0

Reply Score: 1

Ah, the good old .exe
by kadymae on Thu 9th Feb 2006 03:28 UTC
kadymae
Member since:
2005-08-02

and Windows .exe files littered around the desktop after they’ve tried to download software and install it.

Oh, how well I know this ...

1) My husband -- new to the mac. Doesn't understand the difference between a file and a program and is very frustrated when he can open his "excel program" (a spreadsheet he updates weekly) from the old W98 machine but not his "outlook express program".

Only by showing him the different file extensions did it begin to sink in ... to the point that he knows an .exe is an extension that means his iMac can't open it.

Trying to explain to him that all programs are files but not all files are programs ... ~sigh~.


2) Friend of mine downloaded an .exe file and wanted to know why it wouldn't open and install when she renamed it .app.

3) Two OS 9 (hack! spit!) using friends of mine, who, since classic OS pretty much never shows file extensions didn't understand WHY they couldn't install IE6.

Reply Score: 1

Macs and Mice
by Tobbe on Thu 9th Feb 2006 08:04 UTC
Tobbe
Member since:
2005-07-06

Man, I'm so sick of the "Macs sucks - they only have one-button-mice!"-argument.

I've used nothing but three button+scroll-wheel mice since I started using Macs. I've never, ever been forced to use a single button mouse, and yes, OS X is designed smart enough to work well both for those who prefer the simpler mouse as well as for those who prefer additional buttons. The single button mouse is actually quite good for the not-so-computer-savvy people out there.

Besides the fairly new Mighty Mouse just about every USB mouse "made for Windows" works with Macs and they've been doing so for many years. Or is this just a matter of plain stubborness and principle, you guys would never switch the crappy mouse you get with a new Dell either?

Reply Score: 2

From GNU/Linux to OSX
by w3cdotorg on Thu 9th Feb 2006 12:24 UTC
w3cdotorg
Member since:
2006-02-09

hi guys, just to tell i'm using linux slackware 10.1 on my desktop computer, and bought some days ago a PowerBook in order to have a laptop. What i see in these comments are users who switched from Windows to OSX, and i want to say that my experience is different. Of course i've used windows for ages now, but OSX is just excellent, like the virtual drives, etc. i mean, i wasn't lost, it's easier to switch from linux to osx than windows to osx. Once again, windows users have a lot to learn ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: From GNU/Linux to OSX
by rockwell on Thu 9th Feb 2006 21:55 UTC in reply to "From GNU/Linux to OSX"
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//Once again, windows users have a lot to learn ;) //

Actually, there are a few (million) Windows users that have spent considerable time learning the "Windows way" of navigating the OS ... and also know how to make a Windows XP system pretty much rock-stable and a breeze to use.

Like myself, for one. I've no reason whatsoever to switch to any other platform.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: From GNU/Linux to OSX
by lucas on Fri 10th Feb 2006 01:55 UTC in reply to "RE: From GNU/Linux to OSX"
lucas Member since:
2005-07-08

Like myself, for one. I've no reason whatsoever to switch to any other platform.
thats wonderful, stay that way. most of the bitching in this thread is from people like you, with lots of windows experience, who one day decided to buy a mac but it didnt occur to them it wasnt going to be the same to use as what they know. im more than happy for windows centric people to stay on windows, and more than happy for open minded windows people to switch and learn the mac way. what shits me is windows centric people who switch then refuse to accept change. for the record, i use both because i dont like the idea of only knowing my way around one platform. i used to use linux when i had unlimited free time but those days have passed

Reply Score: 1

.exe files
by mallard on Thu 9th Feb 2006 12:57 UTC
mallard
Member since:
2006-01-06

Sometimes it's excusable to get .exe files littering a mac desktop:
Firefox (for mac), for some reason uses a .exe extension for partially downloaded .dmg files.
If you cancel the download, then the .exe file gets left there.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Heh
by Anonymous. on Thu 9th Feb 2006 14:07 UTC
Anonymous.
Member since:
2005-12-04

This is one of my biggest pet-hates of Linux at the moment, it's such a stupid system to automatically save to the Desktop (what a stupid place to put files!) and what's worse is that to save it elsewhere - like in a subfolder of your $HOME directory - requires a couple of extra clicks to unhide the option!
you should try kde. it's file save dialog is a lot like the windows one... one of the few things microsoft actually got right.

Reply Score: 1

hmm
by Mellin on Thu 9th Feb 2006 23:25 UTC
Mellin
Member since:
2005-07-06

Windows users that switch to Mac OS X wants Mac OS X to work and behave like Windows?

Why?

why not stay with windows then if you want it to be like windows ?

Reply Score: 1

Untitled folder
by jonathan on Fri 10th Feb 2006 13:39 UTC
jonathan
Member since:
2006-02-10

I don't find this strange at all. It happens to me sometimes. Say I am using Safari to view a web page. Then I may click on the desktop to do something with a file. Then, if I want to open a new tab i Safari, I would click on the File menu and select the second alternative there, because that's where the new tab command is located in Safari. Sometimes I forget to go back to Safari so I am actually using Finders File menu. Now I will have a new folder on the desktop instead of a new tab.

Reply Score: 1