Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 18th Feb 2006 17:10 UTC, submitted by thebluesgnr
Window Managers "A quiet revolution is taking place on a young mailing list, one that overturns years of false enmity and makes perfect sense to most free software users. Having competed for the free desktop crown since 1997, collaborating on code but never on promotion, KDE and GNOME have launched an initiative to market and promote the free desktop together."
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Great News!
by ma_d on Sat 18th Feb 2006 17:38 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

This is very good to hear. I hope this is as effective (in terms of mindshare not marketshare) as much of the firefox marketing (mostly grassroots) has been!

Reply Score: 5

RE: Great News!
by Dark_Knight on Sat 18th Feb 2006 18:23 UTC in reply to "Great News!"
Dark_Knight Member since:
2005-07-10

While I still believe having developers working on one desktop instead of several would be more beneficial, I also believe this is great news. Collaborating on promoting both desktops together will help educate consumers on options available for them. Knowing that there are options to help lower TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) will also attract consumers to migrate from one OS to another where the previous lacked flexibility.

Now just so everyone who doesn't know me understands I'm not an open source fanatic. I believe there is a place for both commercial and open source software in the market place. After all not every company would survive if they released their commercial software as open source and only provided paid technical support. The open source model while great doesn't always work in every single market globally for every single piece of software, at least not yet. Anyway anyone who has taken time to click on my username will see my profile where I list I currently use a variety of both open source and commercial software on Linux (Novell).

Edited 2006-02-18 18:25

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Great News!
by JamesTRexx on Sat 18th Feb 2006 19:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Great News!"
JamesTRexx Member since:
2005-11-06

Having all collaborate on one desktop is nice, but then we'd be stuck with another Windows. I like the idea of different groups working on different desktops so that each one of them appeals to different people. Not everybody like Gnome, KDE, Fluxbox, Xcfe, etc.. This divergence is what makes open source strong, you have a real choice, not the same backbone but with different colours and shapes.
I think it's great to see collaboration on code and marketing, but it's even better to see someone feel good about her/his choice of OS/desktop.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: Great News!
by lord_rob on Sat 18th Feb 2006 20:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Great News!"
More cooperation possible?
by rcb1 on Sat 18th Feb 2006 19:00 UTC
rcb1
Member since:
2006-02-08

Instead of developing two of each (email clients, file managers, browsers, sound mixers etc), could the KDE and GNOME teams have collaborated to develop one program with two different interfaces (each utlizing a different toolkit)? Could the GUI code have been separated out of program function to make this possible? If such a thing is possible and done, that would eliminate the duplication of effort.

Reply Score: 1

RE: More cooperation possible?
by Mitarai on Sat 18th Feb 2006 19:02 UTC in reply to "More cooperation possible?"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

That makes a lot of sense, but since GNOME use C and KDE use C++ then the developers would work on a bunch of glibs abstractions.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: More cooperation possible?
by JamesTRexx on Sat 18th Feb 2006 19:27 UTC in reply to "RE: More cooperation possible?"
JamesTRexx Member since:
2005-11-06

Not just the language makes a difference, but also the idea of how things should be done makes the difference. That sets KDE and Gnome even more apart.

Reply Score: 4

RE: More cooperation possible?
by somebody on Sat 18th Feb 2006 20:09 UTC in reply to "More cooperation possible?"
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Actualy, you've misread the article or at least mailing list is about this. It is promotion collaboration, not development collaboration.

Future will still be just as hopeless in this case as it was, because problem is not in marketing. Or at least future will be hopeless as it was until GTK and KDE (developers and users) don't stop flaming each other with stupid arguments.

Main cause of problem is a typical result of, for example OSNews article about any of those two. It automaticaly starts flaming war. Which mostly ends up as free OSX or Windows commercial how Linux desktop is screwed. So, basicaly this mailing list should at least a bit fight this flame effect. And if users would shut up with their "My XXX is better than YYY", one could call it a marketing win-win situation.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: More cooperation possible?
by Rugmonster on Sun 19th Feb 2006 08:10 UTC in reply to "RE: More cooperation possible?"
Rugmonster Member since:
2005-11-18

No, you misread it. They are doing promotion collaboration, which in affect helps collaboration that is already in place between developers.

From the article:
With this growing sense of professionalism and purpose, it was perhaps inevitable that the projects would collaborate. The same can happen amongst developers, where a certain level of code and project maturity makes collaboration so obviously beneficial. But with code, it makes sense -- if you're both developing PDF viewers (KDE's KPDF and GNOME's Evince, for instance), then collaborating on the basic shared PDF rendering technology, poppler, is a no-brainer.

Reply Score: 1

RE: More cooperation possible?
by pdamoc on Sat 18th Feb 2006 20:25 UTC in reply to "More cooperation possible?"
pdamoc Member since:
2005-09-13

MVC or MVP patterns have been around since the beginning of time... and let me tell you this... the View part is the easiest one, and in the end the only difference between KDE and Gnome. Have them separate the code and start sharing the models... then... all you'll have is a hybrid that would bring THE BEST OF BOTH WORLDS.

Reply Score: 0

RE: More cooperation possible?
by g2devi on Sat 18th Feb 2006 20:37 UTC in reply to "More cooperation possible?"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

Such things can only happen if one "side" yields to the other side's technology, or they come up with a common technology they can both agree on and abandon their old technology.

This sort of collaboration or surrender doesn't happen often for various reasons, but when it does, both sides benefit. GNOME wouldn't accept DCOP, but they would accept DBUS which is based on many of the ideas of DCOP, except that it's binary. KDE seems to have some commitment to DBUS too (at least through a DBUS-DCOP bridge), so DBUS has become a common standard. The reverse story happened with GStreamer versus aRTs. Other freedesktop standards like the window manager spec, the menu spec, and the mime spec, went through similar consensus decisions or surrenders.

A while back, there was some talk about GNOME and KDE sharing the same main loop. I don't know if it went anywhere, but if it did, Gtk+ and Qt+ apps could be in the same process space and share resources making each feel less bulky in the other environment.

One exciting aspect of this is that it would allow GNOME to build the equivalent of a KParts (called GParts). According to http://gparts.blogspot.com/, some work was started, but judging from the date of the last entry, the project seems to have been stalled. It's a shame. If GParts were finished, KDE and GNOME would have a common plugin spec that would allows KParts to be embedded in GNOME and GParts (Beagle, Evolution Outlook Integration, etc) to be embedded in KDE or KParts be exposed as a Bonobo CORBA object. Both environments could then more easily leverage off each other's work.

Does anyone have any idea if GParts is dead or not or if the common main loop ever got committed to GNOME and KDE?

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: More cooperation possible?
by g2devi on Sat 18th Feb 2006 21:17 UTC in reply to "RE: More cooperation possible?"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

Here is the last link I've found on the subject:
http://pvanhoof.be/blog/index.php/2005/12/08/gparts-and-a-shared-ma...

Reply Score: 1

RE: More cooperation possible?
by Tweek on Mon 20th Feb 2006 01:18 UTC in reply to "More cooperation possible?"
Tweek Member since:
2006-01-12

The different desktops are not simply different displayed graphics. they have inherent design differences and there was no comprimise.

I like the two desktops, end users are not soo stupid as to be completely unable to use the two without training. Hell most dont even know when a java program is up even though it looks incredibly different, tand they dont care.

users can adapt to some trivial graphics being different without much trouble

Reply Score: 1

Angel--Fr@gzill@
Member since:
2005-12-23

This is really good news.

Free-Libre Open Source software needs more collaboration among the big ones...
Above all with all the funny flame wars between fans of different desktops, distros,

etc.

This does not mean that both desktops are going to finish being the same.
As someone pointed out before, one of the richness of open source is the variety of
options for several key components of an OS (like kernel, GUIs, windows managers,
compilers ...).


I do not think KDE and GNOME will become identical ever for the fact of Collaborating
on Free Desktop Promotion.

They are quite different and that is good for all. I think other GUIs and Windows
Managers should collaborate too with KDE and GNOME, and between themselves...


By the way I have written a poem dedicated to the Open source GUIs and Windows
Managers. It was done 2 or 3 months ago, but I have retouched it.
I think this is the definitive version. I am translating it to English and French, and
maybe other languages. Sorry if you do not speak Spanish. If someone think is good in
translating a poem, I'll accept any helping hand...
Its free to be used and published... Read below...

Reply Score: 2

Angel--Fr@gzill@
Member since:
2005-12-23

By the way I have written a poem dedicated to the Open source GUIs and Windows Managers. It was done 2 or 3 months ago, but I have retouched it.
I think this is the definitive version. I am translating it to English and French (half done, already), and maybe other languages. Sorry if you do not speak Spanish. If someone think is good in translating a poem, I'll accept any helping hand...
It's free to be used and published...!!! Read below...

Maybe is not the technical stuff that some readers expect, but I think it is not bad to celebrate that both projects, KDE and GNOME are Collaborating on Free Desktop Promotion.

It is also a good point for the fans of both projects and Open Source, and a nice relaxing little lecture, that is related, anyway, with computers and Operating
Systems.

Programming is a kind of art, after all (ask Alan Cox). So you can take 2 minutes of relaxation in the week-end with a differnt art... I hope you enjoy it!!!



Interfaces, binaries, acussations & ordinary (common) desires
(Original title in Spanish: Interfaces, binarios, acusaciones y deseos ordinarios)

POÈME – POEMA – POEM (Free as beer ...)

Explicative POEM, and hommage to GNOME and KDE... ( or to KDE y a GNOME... LOL) and other Free, Libre, Open Source GUIs, Shells and Windows Managers...





GNOmeándo en VISTA y en XP, ;)
Mirando con ternura a KDE...
Pasando con holgura del tal Gates,
Usando la terminal... y yo qué se...

No quiero otros programas manejar,
que estos de la “libre” sociedad.
Que GNOME me encanta, ya lo ves.
Es limpio y fácil, no es vulgar.

Binarios tienes que vender,
y yo los he de rechazar.
Hay algo en ellos que temer,
pues no son libres de verdad.

Binarios tienes para dar,
ceros y unos... a miles, por doquier;
que sean en GNOME o KDE,
me aportaran mas libertad.

En mi escritorio, ya lo ves,
hay ahora "ventanas" de verdad,
con "Vista" hacia la libertad;
sin falsas rejas que temer.

La diatriba sobre cual utilizar,
hace que me escape la risa sin querer.
A los zaleotes voy sin duda asombrar
pues ultimamente uso Enlightenment y XFCE.

Cual sea tu escritorio de placer,
el gusto en la pantalla del PC,
el encanto, la ilusión en la interfaz,
que sepas, que es como el querer;

que lo que hoy hoy gusta y da placer,
mañana hastía y vas a odiar.
La importancia esta en juntar
inteligencia y fuerza para obrar.

Los que con esfuerzo se unen para hacer
de tanto cero un montaña de verdad,
tienen en mi triste corazón
una ráfaga de fuerza sin igual.

La aByeccIón y la faLacia del Ladrón,
la desidia y dejadez del inmoral,
los binarios de programas del montón,
las montañas de dinero, publicidad...

no bastan para amedrentar
a los ángeles del código y su fe;
su fuente, su riqueza, su expansión...
La libre programación no parará.

Bien nacido, yo agradezco por igual
todas las interfaces que en mi escritorio son,
todas las que ayudan a expandir,
en su código abierto de programación,
las nuevas ideas, conocimientos, los nuevos vientos de libertad...




- If you like this poem dedicated to GNOME, KDE and other GUIs you can copy, use, publish... it. The only conditions are: stating clearly the author of the poem, and communicating it first to the author.
Verbatim copying and distribution of this entire poem is permitted in any medium without royalty, provided this notice is preserved.

Autor – Author - Auteur : Angel Arce

angel.j@advalvas.be

Reply Score: 0

v Too bad it's a waste of time
by ronaldst on Sat 18th Feb 2006 22:59 UTC
RE: Too bad it's a waste of time
by elsewhere on Sun 19th Feb 2006 01:12 UTC in reply to "Too bad it's a waste of time"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Linux needs is 1 general user distro and 1 DE. Until they get this thru their thick heads, all efforts will fail.

Right. And once you've eliminated the concepts of choice and freedom from linux, what are you left with?

Reply Score: 4

sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, take a look at windows as far as the DE goes. Windows has one window manager (itself), but you can use other shells and programs to create a new DE.

But still, there is one default and familiar DE, which is mainly Explorer.

Reply Score: 1

kernelpanicked Member since:
2006-02-01

"Apple has the #1 UNIX desktop on the planet right now."

Bwahahaha keep dreamin fanboy

"They took parts of some obscure UNIX OS and made is easier to use than Windows and MacOS9."

NetBSD and FreeBSD, yeah real obscure

Reply Score: 3

ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

@kernelpanicked

Bwahahaha keep dreamin fanboy

It's reality. ;)

NetBSD and FreeBSD, yeah real obscure

Nextstep.

Reply Score: 0

dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

Apple has the #1 UNIX desktop on the planet right now. They took parts of some obscure UNIX OS and made is easier to use than Windows and MacOS9.

Ever wondered why Linux is failing miserably on the desktop scene? The Linux "community" doesn't have the man power. Resources are too thin. Too many people going in each direction at once and nothing gets done.


How do you know this? Nobody can quantify the number of Linux installations out there, so how can you be so positive that Linux is failing miserably on the desktop?

As for resources and manpower, your point of view is debatable. KDE and GNOME seem to have enough developers to ensure that there are regular releases every few months. This does not seem like shortage of manpower to me and it shows that they are working hard on their projects. When did Microsoft last release a major upgrade to its OS even though it has more resources than any IT company or project out there.

Reply Score: 4

hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

"Ever wondered why Linux is failing miserably on the desktop scene? The Linux "community" doesn't have the man power. Resources are too thin. Too many people going in each direction at once and nothing gets done."

Pffft.

The Open Source community gets a great deal more done than Microsoft.

A post or so above is a list of a dozen or more things that are included in a typical opensource Linux distribution that do not come with Microsoft's Windows.

Even if you add MS Office at several hundred dollars cost you are still a long way short of the comes by default in a Linux distribution.

So much for the rediculous notion "doesn't have the man power. Resources are too thin." - dismismissed easily with a few simple straightforward facts.

Reply Score: 1

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Ever wondered why Linux is failing miserably on the desktop scene?"

Ever wondered why Linux has a larger marketshare than Apple?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Too bad it's a waste of time
by dark child on Sun 19th Feb 2006 01:47 UTC in reply to "Too bad it's a waste of time"
dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

Linux needs is 1 general user distro and 1 DE. Until they get this thru their thick heads, all efforts will fail.

Which distro and DE will that be? If you get a few Linux users together, I am sure you'll find that they would never reach an agreement about this. You obviously miss the point that opensource is about choice. Opensource caters for people with different needs and preferences so having a single DE or single distro is practically impossible.

One of the greatest Opensources greatest streangth is that you are not locked into one single vendor, which would be the case if we decided to use one distro and one DE.

Reply Score: 3

dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

I once found the most retarded thing on Ubuntu. To add MP3 capability, you have to search the Ubuntu wiki. Even if the user downloads XMMS or another MP3 player, they still have to search some site to add basic stuff that Windows users didn't have to deal with since Windows 95.


Thats a distro specific problem because Ubuntu like Fedora and Debian will not ship non free software or software that can cause legal problems. Other distros come with everything most users need e.g. flash player, nvidia drivers, mp3 and dvd playing capabilities. Most of this stuff you would need to add on your own in Windows, so I don't see a problem with a Linux distro shipping without certain multimedia capabilities.


And that's is just one of the hundrends of problem the average desktop user is gonna be faced. Can you imagine the problem they get into when they're off to edit some obscure text file just to properly add NTFS capability?

Most computer users are not highly skilled technical people, so I can't see an ordinary user fiddling around with NTFS capabilities. Do you? For most people, if they are just shown which icons to click to start certain apps, open and save files, chat etc, they are quite happy with that regardless of the platform.

Personally I don't think Linux directly competes with Windows on the desktop. They serve people with different needs and its good to have that choice. If windows works for you, then thats great and if Linux works fine for someone else, hey thats great too.

Reply Score: 2

hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

"I once found the most retarded thing on Ubuntu. To add MP3 capability, you have to search the Ubuntu wiki. Even if the user downloads XMMS or another MP3 player, they still have to search some site to add basic stuff that Windows users didn't have to deal with since Windows 95."

I call FUD.

If we are talking Windows users, then we should be talking about a Linux distribution that is designed for the desktop and with users of limited familiarity with computer technology in mind. We are talking about a Linux "desktop distribution for newbies".

http://www.pclinuxos.com/

There you go, comes with MP3 support out-of-the-box.

In fact, it comes with Ogg Vorbis support out-of-the-box, which Windows doesn't.

Oh, and it comes with a full Office suite out-of-the-box, which Windows doesn't, and which can read and save in OpenDocument format, which Windows (at least MS Office) can't.

It comes with a full-blown graphics editor program, which Windows doesn't.

It comes with a full-blow CD and DVD burning program, which Windows doesn't.

It comes with a full suite of Internet programs (ftp, IM, newsreader, P2P, bittorrent, etc), which Windows doesn't.

It comes with e-mail and calendaring programs, which Windows doesn't.

It comes with an RSS reader, which Windows doesn't.

It comes with a photo management program and editor, which Windows doesn't.

It comes with a capable text editor, which Windows doesn't.

It comes with a powerful C/C++ compiler, which Windows doesn't.

It has an additional 3,000 packages available for free download from one place, all guaranteed free of malware, which Windows doesn't.

Do you still have a point at all?

Edited 2006-02-19 10:10

Reply Score: 4

kernelpanicked
Member since:
2006-02-01

ronaldst, let me go ahead and give you the straight facts here. This may be painful for you and other Mac lovers out there. Mac is not #1 in anything at this point. As for being based on Nextstep, that sure is some nice crack you're smokin. The base system is a mesh of NetBSD and FreeBSD strapped onto a mach kernel. Aqua while being pretty, is fairly useless and is decidedly nothing like Nextstep. Now here comes the really painful part. No matter what you keep telling yourself, Mac OSX will never be a real UNIX. It is a bastard abomination that should never have existed.

Browser: Links (2.1pre20; FreeBSD 6.0-RELEASE i386; x)

Reply Score: 2