Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 28th Mar 2006 21:49 UTC
OpenBSD "Theo de Raadt is the project leader for OpenBSD, a Unix-like operating system. We spoke with Theo about the upcoming release of OpenBSD, 3.9, the financial state of the project, and about companies that profit from free software without contributing back."
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Shame on multinational companies
by Joe User on Tue 28th Mar 2006 22:59 UTC
Joe User
Member since:
2005-06-29

If you want to judge any entity particularly harshly, judge Sun. Yearly they hold interoperability events, for NFS and other protocols, and they include SSH implementation tests as well. Twice we asked them to cover the travel and accommodation costs for a developer to come to their event, and they refused. Considering that their SunSSH is directly based on our code, that is just flat out insulting. Shame on you Sun, shame, shame, shame.

I agree, this is incredible. Capitalism. Absurd.

Reply Score: 4

d a v i d Member since:
2005-07-06

How is that "Capitalism"?

Freeloading off the backs of others is just as much in the hearts of socialists as it is of the capitalists.

Reply Score: 3

dukeinlondon Member since:
2005-07-06

You won't be heard here dude. Just not enough culture out there. Give up.

Reply Score: 1

setuid_w00t Member since:
2005-10-22

Nobody made the OpenSSH developers give their product away for free. It was a choice they made. If they wanted money from it, they should be selling binaries or selling source licenses.

Stop begging.

Reply Score: 1

eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

No one's begging. Did you read the interview?

Reply Score: 4

I read the interview
by ryan on Wed 29th Mar 2006 04:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Shame on multinational companies"
ryan Member since:
2005-07-06

Theo is complaining that Sun is using the BSD licence as it was intended. If he wanted Sun to play nice, he should have used the LGPL or something similar... whining that corporations are acting in their own best interest is not really that productive.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I read the interview
by Soulbender on Wed 29th Mar 2006 04:32 UTC in reply to "I read the interview"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Theo is complaining that Sun is using the BSD licence as it was intended."

This has nothing to do with the license. Stop trolling for flamewars.

Reply Score: 4

v RE[2]: I read the interview
by Angel--Fr@gzill@ on Wed 29th Mar 2006 05:39 UTC in reply to "RE: I read the interview"
RE[3]: I read the interview
by dukeinlondon on Wed 29th Mar 2006 08:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I read the interview"
dukeinlondon Member since:
2005-07-06

Indeed.

Nobody pays if they don't have to. In a corporate environment, it's hard to justify spending on products with a price tag, encrypted license keys et al. Now try to justify spending when you don't have to !

Theo should tap in the sponsoring budget of tech companies, not their 'good tech citizenship' budget.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: I read the interview
by Soulbender on Wed 29th Mar 2006 08:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I read the interview"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I also do not understand that others post claiming similar views are quickly accused of trolling by the BSD zealots... Sure there are GNU zealots, but if they prove their views with logic and empiric demostrations, why they should not do it?"

Because it is trolling. The license, be it BSD or (L)GPL, has nothing to do with financing. They only deal with the freedom of the source and has no provisioning WHATSOEVER for licensing fees. I'm sure a lot of people find discussing the pros and cons of the different licenses fascinating but it still has nothing to do with the money side of things. Using the GPL, for example, does not stop people from using your code and not giving back money or otherwise help your project financially

Edited 2006-03-29 08:35

Reply Score: 2

v RE[4]: I read the interview
by Angel--Fr@gzill@ on Wed 29th Mar 2006 10:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I read the interview"
RE[4]: I read the interview
by Angel--Fr@gzill@ on Wed 29th Mar 2006 21:36 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I read the interview"
Angel--Fr@gzill@ Member since:
2005-12-23

!!!!

" The license, be it BSD or (L)GPL, has nothing to do with financing. They only deal with the freedom of the source and has no provisioning WHATSOEVER for licensing fees. I'm sure a lot of people find discussing the pros and cons of the different licenses fascinating but it still has nothing to do with the money side of things. Using the GPL, for example, does not stop people from using your code and not giving back money or otherwise help your project financially "

--

Absolutly right .. I could not agreee with you more!

Just tell me why did you answer my post with the above metioned text if I have never said the contrary in any of my posts... ???

I still thing that many people shoukd finish reading the whole post before answering in a hectic way!

!!!

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: I read the interview
by Soulbender on Wed 29th Mar 2006 09:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I read the interview"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Has anyone heard about the Lemmings in Scandinavia, throwing themselves to the death from the cliffs... That is what happens when your model is not substainable!"

Lemmings dont actually do this. It's just another popular but untrue myth. Maybe you should read up on the animal kingdom.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: I read the interview
by Ronald Vos on Wed 29th Mar 2006 16:17 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I read the interview"
Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

<offtopic>
Lemmings dont actually do this. It's just another popular but untrue myth. Maybe you should read up on the animal kingdom.

The way I understand it, is that in case of overpopulation (every 4 years or so), they mass migrate elsewhere, but always to lower regions for some reason. And if they are in sufficient numbers, they will occasionally blunder off of cliffs en masse.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: I read the interview
by Angel--Fr@gzill@ on Wed 29th Mar 2006 16:31 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: I read the interview"
Angel--Fr@gzill@ Member since:
2005-12-23

!!!

"Lemmings dont actually do this. It's just another popular but untrue myth. Maybe you should read up on the animal kingdom"

I am quite interested in ethology.
Ok, maybe your right.. can you enlight us briefly about what Lemmings do, please?

!!!

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: I read the interview
by Temcat on Wed 29th Mar 2006 10:13 UTC in reply to "RE: I read the interview"
Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

It has EVERYTHING to do with license. With BSD license, which was their OWN choice, nobody owes them monetary copensation for their efforts, and yet Theo whines that the project doesn't get anything in return. Sure, some might donate them money out of pure generosity, and that will be a Good Thing(TM) - but REQUIRING generosity is stupid and childish.

Here's the relevant long quote for those who haven't bothered to RTFA:

-----------------------------------------------
If I add up everything we have ever gotten in exchange for our efforts with OpenSSH, it might amount to $1,000. This all came from individuals. For our work on OpenSSH, companies using OpenSSH have never given us a cent. What about companies that incorporate OpenSSH directly into their products, saving themselves millions of dollars? Companies such as Cisco, Sun, SGI, HP, IBM, Siemens, a raft of medium-sized firewall companies -- we have not received a cent. Or from Linux vendors? Not a cent.

Of course we did not set out to create OpenSSH for the money -- we purposely made it completely free so that the "telnet infrastructure" of the 1980s would die. But it sure is sad that none of these companies return even a fraction of value in kind.

If you want to judge any entity particularly harshly, judge Sun. Yearly they hold interoperability events, for NFS and other protocols, and they include SSH implementation tests as well. Twice we asked them to cover the travel and accommodation costs for a developer to come to their event, and they refused. Considering that their SunSSH is directly based on our code, that is just flat out insulting. Shame on you Sun, shame, shame, shame.

I will say it here -- if an OpenSSH hole is found that applies to SunSSH, Sun will not be informed. Or maybe that has happened already.
-----------------------------------------------

Sun does NOT owe them anything.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I read the interview
by miscz on Wed 29th Mar 2006 15:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I read the interview"
miscz Member since:
2005-07-17

Sure, they didn't break the law. They don't owe them anything. But they are still jerks, Sun relies on some guys work and they could at least return a favor.

Reply Score: 1

by CodeMonkey on Tue 28th Mar 2006 23:03 UTC
CodeMonkey
Member since:
2005-09-22

It's nice to be able to get a bit of insight into how the inner circle of development on OpenBSD works. I can definitely understand where they get their security-strong reputation given the projects general distrust of it's own code. I particularly enjoyed reading his comments recuarding his dislike of Sun and their shady business. As far as drivers go, I hope they keep pushing just as hard for vendor documentation, although I doubt there is little to wory about as they seem pretty committed. And congrats on the fantastic job finishing the NVidia Ethernet driver, and a good driver at that. I'm looking forward for 3.9

Reply Score: 1

Drivers
by Joe User on Tue 28th Mar 2006 23:22 UTC
Joe User
Member since:
2005-06-29

Are these reverse-engineered drivers back-ported to other BSDs?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Drivers
by Daniel Seuffert on Wed 29th Mar 2006 00:29 UTC in reply to "Drivers"
Daniel Seuffert Member since:
2005-08-02

http://www.onthenet.com.au/~q/nvnet/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=nve

I haven't seen anything being back-ported lately to other BSDs but I admit I'm not familiar with NetBSD and Dragon Fly, maybe they did something.

Regards, Daniel

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Drivers
by Janizary on Thu 30th Mar 2006 06:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Drivers"
Janizary Member since:
2006-03-12

nve is a binary blob driver, it uses Linux's binary blob, nfe doesn't have a blob, OpenBSD developers did the hard thing and reverse engineered.

Reply Score: 1

Awesome comment
by Tom K on Wed 29th Mar 2006 00:06 UTC
Tom K
Member since:
2005-07-06

'TdR: I don't really take any position of advocacy. People should use what they want to, and I am not the right person to say anyone "should" do anything. But hey, if someone is adventurous, check it out.'

All the OS zealots out there should listen to this man.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Awesome comment
by Nex6 on Wed 29th Mar 2006 00:09 UTC in reply to "Awesome comment"
Nex6 Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree

Reply Score: 2

v Is Linux For Losers?
by Moulinneuf on Wed 29th Mar 2006 04:21 UTC in reply to "Awesome comment"
RE: Is Linux For Losers?
by Tom K on Wed 29th Mar 2006 07:49 UTC in reply to "Is Linux For Losers?"
Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

Moulinneuf, the resident OSNews GNU/Linux Prior, has spoken.

Reply Score: 1

Information for the non informed
by Moulinneuf on Wed 29th Mar 2006 14:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Is Linux For Losers?"
Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Tom K , I know I showed you that you where duped by an individual who does not represent what he claim to be and what you admire in him. If he did not care about it then why is he attacking it and why is he not dual licensing is software in order to finance them into existance?

BTW , thanks for the religious lessons I had no idea what a prior was , I aint one and GNU/Linux is not a religion , its a choice made by people who where wronged before by the proprietary software and BSD's. Its also a working solution.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Information for the non informed
by Tom K on Wed 29th Mar 2006 20:19 UTC in reply to "Information for the non informed"
Tom K Member since:
2005-07-06

You were "wronged" by the BSDs? I laugh heartily at you.

What, did the BSDs come into your room at night, and touch you in bad places? Which one of them was the worst? One would assume that Beastie is the most devilish, but then again the pufferfish could perform mightily-unfriendly gestures as well. God forbid me even thinking about what's possible with the flag and its pole.

Reply Score: 2

JMcCarthy Member since:
2005-08-12

Canada or Quebec?

Reply Score: 1

Moulinneuf Member since:
2005-07-06

Both Quebec is a province of CANADA

Reply Score: 0

What?
by bullethead on Wed 29th Mar 2006 00:31 UTC
bullethead
Member since:
2005-07-10

To quote the article:

"I will say it here -- if an OpenSSH hole is found that applies to SunSSH, Sun will not be informed. Or maybe that has happened already."

And these guys are mentioning money? They can practically take down Wall Street. ;)

Edited 2006-03-29 00:34

Reply Score: 2

Re: This has nothing to do with the license
by Lazarus on Wed 29th Mar 2006 04:55 UTC
Lazarus
Member since:
2005-08-10

Agreed.

This is no different than say building a 'Linux From Scratch system,' making no changes to the source and selling the resulting binary system (with source provided), keeping all the money you make from it, giving nothing back to the people who wrote the software.

Different licenses, same result. Let's try to put a little more thought into our arguments people...

Reply Score: 4

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

Unfortunately the GPL *still* doesnt have any clauses about licensing fees. How hard is this to understand?
Both these licenses (and most OSS licenses) ONLY deals with the source code, not with any monetary matters.

Edited 2006-03-29 08:38

Reply Score: 2

Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

"This is no different than say building a 'Linux From Scratch system,' making no changes to the source and selling the resulting binary system (with source provided), keeping all the money you make from it, giving nothing back to the people who wrote the software."

Due to the thread breakage, I'm not sure if you imply that this is a bad thing. To me, it's using the license exactly as it is intended, and therefore completely OK...

Reply Score: 2

Lazarus Member since:
2005-08-10

"Due to the thread breakage, I'm not sure if you imply that this is a bad thing. To me, it's using the license exactly as it is intended, and therefore completely OK..."

I was trying to say that it does not matter in this case which of the two licenses are employed, as such is irrelevant to the issue of the project needing more money. BSDL or GPL, the real problem is going to remain. GPLing OpenBSD isn't going to make Theo's electrical bills any smaller, nor will it make Sun or whoever else feel obligated to give OpenBSD more funds.

License here is irrelevant. Managing what money they do have, or finding out a way to bring in more is what's important.

/RE[2]:

I like OpenBSD, tho it is not my primary system. I am fairly neutral when it comes to TdR. I'd like very much for their work to continue.

It's been said that the OpenBSD Hackathons have been wildly productive affairs. Personally, I can't see why you can't just have all the devs using VOIP and supplying their own beer and avoiding the costs of travel altogether, but that's just me.

Google ads on the OpenBSD site, could be another minor option to help increase income. Retiring some of the more ancient and power hungry machines in his basement and move the continuing development of the more uncommon architectures on virtual harware and so on.

Sure, none of my suggestions are perfect, and some of them would have drawbacks, but for the time being it seems that they can't continue as they have and still be productive.

EDIT: can -> can't

Edited 2006-03-29 10:34

Reply Score: 1

sithgunner Member since:
2006-02-16

> Different licenses, same result.

You mean, the world only has gpl/bsd or mozilla licenses?

How about write something that fits your need?
Even the donation itself can probably hire some lawyer to get some draft up, especially if he likes working on open source for a cheaper fee.

Reply Score: 0

Sun, Capitalism and the BSD license.
by johndaly on Wed 29th Mar 2006 10:16 UTC
johndaly
Member since:
2006-01-16

Theo didn't complain that Sun forked and closed OpenSSH, that is within the BSD license. He complained that they didn't pay for one developer to attend Sun's interoperability event. That has nothing to do with the BSD license and all with being nice.
How dose that relate to capitalism? Not at all, you are neither required to be nice or mean to be a capitalist, but if you read some basic business texts you will find that it is better to act nice since you don't want to build ill will towards yourself. Makes sense? All this capitalist communist software stuff is a big load of FUD and you should not take an ounce of it serious.

Reply Score: 2

Grow up
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 29th Mar 2006 10:28 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Theo said: I will say it here -- if an OpenSSH hole is found that applies to SunSSH, Sun will not be informed. Or maybe that has happened already.

I'm sorry, but that is just plain childish and extremely unprofessional. It's like a kid refusing to do anything his mother tells him to because he doesn't get a cookie.

If Theo wants people to take OpenBSD seriously, he should stop making pointless comments like this one. If you really care about security and open source, you help anyone using your software (if that anyone has done nothing to break the licensing of course). If you let personal grudges stand in the way of seeing the bigger picture (*cough*Amiga), then you have no place in the corporate world-- or in any world, for that matter.

Grow up.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Grow up
by Soulbender on Wed 29th Mar 2006 11:41 UTC in reply to "Grow up"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"I'm sorry, but that is just plain childish and extremely unprofessional. It's like a kid refusing to do anything his mother tells him to because he doesn't get a cookie."

Really. Isn't it Sun's job to make sure their codebase is up to date, not OpenSSH's?
Why should the OpenSSH's guys go out of their way to help Sun, a gigantic company with wast resources, keeping their sh1t together? It's not like they're hiding anything, the code and release information is there for Sun to find all by themselves.

"If Theo wants people to take OpenBSD seriously, he should stop making pointless comments like this one."

The irony of you making this statement is so thick you could slice it with a butterknife.

"If you let personal grudges stand in the way of seeing the bigger picture (*cough*Amiga), then you have no place in the corporate world-- or in any world, for that matter."

OpenSSH/OpenBSD is not a corporate entity and does not exists to please corporations. It exists because
the developers are interest in working on it.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Grow up
by bubbayank on Wed 29th Mar 2006 15:37 UTC in reply to "Grow up"
bubbayank Member since:
2005-07-15

If Theo wants people to take OpenBSD seriously, he should stop making pointless comments like this one. If you really care about security and open source, you help anyone using your software (if that anyone has done nothing to break the licensing of course). If you let personal grudges stand in the way of seeing the bigger picture (*cough*Amiga), then you have no place in the corporate world-- or in any world, for that matter.

That's silly. Sun forked the code, and it's not OpenSSH at this point. He has no obligation to help them out or to notify them of any problems they may have caused with their changes. He already helped plenty by providing OpenSSH for free. It would be nice if they reciprocated and paid for some airfare and perhaps sent a few pieces of hardware his way. They choose not to, which seems pretty shitty and/or childish in it's own right.

Again, I ask that anyone that really has so much crap to sling about Theo should immediately cease using OpenSSH in protest. ;)

Reply Score: 4

rycamor
Member since:
2005-07-18

...should realize a deeper truth about large corporations: they are not really capitalist, and they are not necessarily well-run businesses. They exist because they have learned how to manipulate the government and social system(s) in question, as much as anything else. In the case of Sun, I'm sure much of this involves some nice long-term government contracts.

So saying such things as "why would a company pay when it doesn't have to?" Betrays a lack of understanding of strategic thinking. There are plenty of times a company will pay when it doesn't have to, *if* that payment provides a strategic advantage to that company, *and* if that company actually perceives a need for strategic thinking. For most reasonable (medium-to-smaller) technology business owners, contributing to something like OpenSSH is a no-brainer: it provides good publicity, and it ensures that this particular product will be available in the future. If I were a Sun stockholder, I would be outraged that this company is behaving so irresponsibly with my capital. Many non-technical industries spend a lot of money and effort at open infrastructures that benefit all. This is simply good strategy, and in fact validated by applied game theory.

But companies like Sun have proven time and time again that they do not approach business in a logical manner. They tend to operate purely on impulse or reaction. For example, Java was turned from an embedded OS for your coffee machine into an enterprise applicating platform mainly because Sun thought they needed to do something, anything to combat Microsoft. Did this make any sense? Not if you a) give the JVM and JDK away for free and b) make it run on your competitors' OS and hardware. What were they thinking? The fact that Sun is in business at all is more due to the weight of legacy systems and political shmoozing (and the fact that they do have some great engineers), but not in any way due to their amazingly shrewd management.

Would a company like Sun have any difficulty paying for a couple OpenSSH developers to come to their interoperability event? Not in the least. It wasn't a financial decision, nor was it a strategic decision. It was simply some middle manager's snap decision, with complete lack of courtesy and forethought.

Sun is not known for courtesy or forethought, though. For example, while giving Linux developers and easy path to providing licensed Java binaries for users, FreeBSD users are still forced to spend half a day compiling their own binaries. At one point Sun actually agreed to license Java to FreeBSD, and then quickly reversed their decision. Why? If they want Java to be used everywhere, why keep FreeBSD out in the cold? Again, it makes no sense on a strategic level. This company seems driven by emotional responses rather than any semblance of strategy. Don't blame capitalism. True capitalism would have weeded out companies like Sun a long time ago.

Reply Score: 4

v this guy is an asshole
by os86 on Wed 29th Mar 2006 14:43 UTC
RE: this guy is an asshole
by gtada on Wed 29th Mar 2006 15:04 UTC in reply to "this guy is an asshole"
gtada Member since:
2005-10-12

Sadly I have to agree. I donated hardware and funds years ago, and when we were working out the shipping details, Theo was very unpleasant about it. Never even said a simple "thanks".

He's not getting anything from me again.

Reply Score: 0

Angel--Fr@gzill@
Member since:
2005-12-23

There is something that the GPL advocats will never understand, and is that BSD distros licences are really free, and GPL is not really free!

Theo de Raad was not begging in the article, just asking for something absolutly normal that had been forgotten by greedy corporations, and voicing what actually is a superior moral and professional behaviour
that will, in due time,rule the IT company relations!

Reply Score: 1

Uhg
by ormandj on Wed 29th Mar 2006 21:53 UTC
ormandj
Member since:
2005-10-09

http://www.opensolaris.org/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=7083&tstart=15

Yea, he's gotten things from them. Now quit spamming my mailing lists!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Uhg
by Soulbender on Thu 30th Mar 2006 04:49 UTC in reply to "Uhg"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Now quit spamming my mailing lists!"
Maybe you should ask "Lars" to do that. He's not an OpenBSD developer so what he is doing has nothing to do with the OpenBSD project.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Uhg
by ormandj on Thu 30th Mar 2006 04:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Uhg"
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

He's not the only one, and that's not the only mailing list. Thanks.

Reply Score: 1

Badly Squeeezing for Dollars !!!
by Angel--Fr@gzill@ on Wed 29th Mar 2006 22:11 UTC
Angel--Fr@gzill@
Member since:
2005-12-23

!!!
I have posted that in another thread but, here I go:

BSD

Bad Sofware Developpers

Badly Squeeezing for Dollars

:)

Sorry, I could not help it!

!!!

Reply Score: 0

It is being a great night here!
by Angel--Fr@gzill@ on Wed 29th Mar 2006 22:35 UTC
Angel--Fr@gzill@
Member since:
2005-12-23

!!!

Beware! Some Despicable

BaStarDs sons of UNIX

Begging for Some Dollars!

--
This one was bad at all neither !

---

Yep.. its true.. No exuse.

Only perhaps these:

- Montepulziano d'Abruzzio " Denominazione d'Origine Contallata", La Rinalda 2004 - 1 Bottle

- Vitoria "Gran Reserva" 1997, Valdepenas, denominacion de Origen, Tempranillo - 2 Bottles

- Cotes du Rhone 2004, Denomination d'origine - 2 Bottles

- some still to come...

that we are finishing here !!!

It is being a great night here! We have also been trying the DesktopBSD 1.0 distro. Pretty good actually... Not all the good stuff is Linux...

!!!

Reply Score: 1