Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 6th Apr 2006 20:43 UTC, submitted by anonymous
Talk, Rumors, X Versus Y "All too often the desktop operating system market is looked upon as some sort of epic struggle between Microsoft and Linux. This 'versus' mentality is fun to perpetuate, it is not helping anyone in the long run. Since it is clear that each party is going to be around for a long time, what is needed a bit of mannerly coexistence. While the name calling may persist, it is more important that efforts are made to enable the two operating systems to work together more efficiently than they do now."
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Well Said That Man!
by Al2001 on Thu 6th Apr 2006 21:49 UTC
Al2001
Member since:
2005-07-06

About time we got some input from a grown-up around here.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Well Said That Man!
by jayson.knight on Thu 6th Apr 2006 21:56 UTC in reply to "Well Said That Man!"
jayson.knight Member since:
2005-07-06

Let's see how long things stay civilized on this thread though ;-).

Reply Score: 1

RE: Well Said That Man!
by segedunum on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:28 UTC in reply to "Well Said That Man!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

About time we got some input from a grown-up around here.

It would be well said apart from one tiny, tiny flaw. Microsoft doesn't want to cooperate or coexist. With anyone or anything.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Well Said That Man!
by sappyvcv on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Well Said That Man!"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Now now, there is no reason to exaggerate like that. And you know that's simply not true.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Well Said That Man!
by segedunum on Fri 7th Apr 2006 21:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Well Said That Man!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Now now, there is no reason to exaggerate like that. And you know that's simply not true.

Based on what?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Well Said That Man!
by sappyvcv on Fri 7th Apr 2006 21:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Well Said That Man!"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

"Microsoft doesn't want to cooperate or coexist. With anyone or anything."

They cooperate with their partners, therefore your statement was blatantly wrong, even if it's not what you meant.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Well Said That Man!
by segedunum on Sun 9th Apr 2006 13:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Well Said That Man!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

They cooperate with their partners, therefore your statement was blatantly wrong, even if it's not what you meant.

Nice non-existant comment. The article is talking about Microsoft coexisting with Linux. Does Microsoft contribute to groups promoting collaboration and standards between the two? No. Now take your silly comments elsewhere.

They're so blatantly wrong and biased, based on years of Microsoft's track record, you really embarrass yourself.

Edited 2006-04-09 13:04

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Well Said That Man!
by Al2001 on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Well Said That Man!"
Al2001 Member since:
2005-07-06

Of course they don't.

Man utd won't wanna lose to chelsea in a couple of weeks even though they've won the title numerous times. My point is that even though there maybe sparks on the pitch it's not an excuse for the fans to fight.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Well Said That Man!
by segedunum on Fri 7th Apr 2006 21:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Well Said That Man!"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

My point is that even though there maybe sparks on the pitch it's not an excuse for the fans to fight.

That has no relevance to the article. The guy is talking about coexisting. That can only be done by the interested parties, and it is quite clear that Microsoft doesn't want to.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Well Said That Man!
by j.blechert on Fri 7th Apr 2006 21:08 UTC in reply to "RE: Well Said That Man!"
j.blechert Member since:
2006-01-04

that's it with "grown ups". they just don't notice what's going on.

Reply Score: 1

If Anything...
by jayson.knight on Thu 6th Apr 2006 21:55 UTC
jayson.knight
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'd say Microsoft (given their recent gestures) is growing up a bit itself and is attempting to play nice with other platforms. Just in the past week:

- Support for Linux on Virtual Server
- Opened up their Linux labs to the public
- Announced WPF/E (which will eventually get ported to Linux once it's out of beta).

And a while back made SFU a free download.

It's quite a refreshing change actually.

Reply Score: 2

RE: If Anything...
by archiesteel on Thu 6th Apr 2006 21:57 UTC in reply to "If Anything..."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Those are rather feeble gestures considering MS' past history.

There is a very simple way to signal a new era in MS/Linux interoperability: port MS Office to Linux.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: If Anything...
by sappyvcv on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:19 UTC in reply to "RE: If Anything..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I doubt they'd make it free, as they'd gain nothing from it. And how many people do you think would actually *buy* Office for linux?

Yeah.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: If Anything...
by archiesteel on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:24 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: If Anything..."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Who says anything about making it free? I think lots of people would buy it, actually. The lack of MS Office on Linux is what keeps many of companies from switching at least part of their desktops.

I know *I* would buy it.

BTW, the idea that Linux people don't buy software is a myth, and the fact that it is widely repeated doesn't make it true. The fact is that a large proportion of Windows users (especially home users) don't buy software either, but pirate it instead. MS makes money on corporate sales, and it would make money on corporate Linux sales. Meanwhile, companies buy low-end and high-end commercial software for Linux workstations: Maya, Piranha, Smoke, Photoshop (to be used with Wine...), Crossover Office...the market is there, despite the myth that it isn't...

Of course MS would lose OS market share, but we were talking about making *genuine" goodwill gestures here, not meaningless ones like the ones that were listed in the OP.

Edited 2006-04-06 22:28

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: If Anything...
by sappyvcv on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:27 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: If Anything..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

whoops, I meant to address the corporate thing.

If porting Office to Linux meant a lot of corporations would switch over, where's the incentive for Microsoft? It's not *wrong* that they want to prevent that, they are a business.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: If Anything...
by archiesteel on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:31 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: If Anything..."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

They've provided it for Mac for a long time. In fact, they had MS Office for Mac before they did for the PC.

Please re-read what I originally wrote: we were talking about the kind of goodwill gesture that would have Linux users regain some trust with Microsoft, and so I gave one, and you haven't provided any argument to the contrary.

I'm not arguing that MS is likely to do this (though it would not necessarily be a bad idea if they wanted to take some steam out of OpenOffice), or that it's good for them considering their current focus on dominating the OS market. All I'm saying is that this is the kind of goodwill gesture that would warm up Linux users to MS. If you want to debate this, please stay on topic...

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: If Anything...
by sappyvcv on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:37 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: If Anything..."
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

Well I agree with you there. It would be a goodwill gesture, and help them gain a small amount of "trust".

I was just trying to say that it is very unlikely to happen, so there's not much reason to discuss it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: If Anything...
by elsewhere on Fri 7th Apr 2006 04:53 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: If Anything..."
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

They've provided it for Mac for a long time. In fact, they had MS Office for Mac before they did for the PC.

Please re-read what I originally wrote: we were talking about the kind of goodwill gesture that would have Linux users regain some trust with Microsoft, and so I gave one, and you haven't provided any argument to the contrary.

I'm not arguing that MS is likely to do this (though it would not necessarily be a bad idea if they wanted to take some steam out of OpenOffice), or that it's good for them considering their current focus on dominating the OS market. All I'm saying is that this is the kind of goodwill gesture that would warm up Linux users to MS. If you want to debate this, please stay on topic...


Office on OS X poses little threat to Microsoft's corporate dominance today, because OS X poses little threat to Microsoft's corporate dominance. Today. Despite enterprise aspirations, Apple is predominantly a consumer or professional product, not an information worker-type enterprise/corporate one. So that's incremental revenue with little risk of downside, almost like admitting those people aren't going to buy Windows anyways. It was also strategic to repairing their public image after the anti-trust cases, and I believe it was originally part of their settlement with Apple to continue supporting OS X at it's release.

Office on Linux would be a threat to Microsoft's corporate platform dominance, since that is often cited as one of the biggest impediments to linux adoption by those corporate customers themselves.

Still, I'm of the opinion that "Plan B" does exist at Microsoft. If Linux manages to hit a certain saturation point in enterprises, and it doesn't have to be a significantly large one, then I wouldn't be surprised to see a linux port or even more likely, some sort of Windows-server based Office service with a linux client. Microsoft is an arrogant company, but they're not a stupid one. If they start to lose traction in one area, they'll reinforce in others. Ultimately they're accountible to their shareholders, and they'll be forced to react to a changing market, if that market ever manages to change.

I do think the winds of change are in the air and even MS is grudgingly realizing it's no longer all about the OS, and Windows itself is being attacked on too many fronts. If push comes to shove, Microsoft will just leverage their existing areas of dominance (Office etc.) and the areas they're trying to dominate (digital media, web services, data centers) and will ultimately and happily allow *nix or any other OS, or PDA, or SmartPhone etc. to perfom low-brow "client" duties. Call me crazy, but I don't think it's that far fetched.

I doubt little will change today, but tomorrow isn't all that far down the road...

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: If Anything...
by tristan on Fri 7th Apr 2006 22:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: If Anything..."
tristan Member since:
2006-02-01

If porting Office to Linux meant a lot of corporations would switch over [from Windows], where's the incentive for Microsoft? It's not *wrong* that they want to prevent that

Except that it is wrong. Companies should not be allowed to use a dominant market position in one sector to prop up their monopoly in another sector. In most other industries, such behaviour would be strictly prohibited by the regulator. For example, would it be reasonable for the only gas company in the area (or at least, the gas company upon which you rely) to say, "we will only supply you with gas if you also use us as your electricity supplier"?

Or to put it another way: imagine that the ruling had gone the other way 5 years or so ago, and that Microsoft had been split up, so that the OS and Office suites were made by completely separate companies. With the growing desktop Linux market, what reason would the new MS Office Corporation have for *not* producing a GTK version? They already have a Mac product, which arguably has less potential on the corporate desktop. A native Linux version would allow them to sew up the market and have all their bases covered.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: If Anything...
by Get a Life on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: If Anything..."
Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

I'd probably buy it simply for smooth interoperability with other people's documents and to meet external requirements. Office is admittedly not particularly useful for my own research purposes, but the darndest thing happens: other people use it for almost everything. If I'm going to use a bloated, ugly program to interact with other people's documents I would rather pay a few hundred dollars for the "real thing" with all of the necessary functionality that is bug-for-bug compatible than use OpenOffice, and doing so without using Wine would be great. Of course that doesn't mean that there would be enough customers to cover development costs, and without any idea what those costs would be (it should be a rather significant amount, I would think), it's hard to say if it's worthwhile.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: If Anything...
by ma_d on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:26 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: If Anything..."
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

I'd consider it. OOo is pathetic. Seriously, it really is, it's a constant irritation to me. Word isn't magically amazing, but at least it doesn't have different bugs making interoperability a total pain. And I just won't ask 3-5 other people to switch off Word to OOo when I'm the only OOo user...

Well, actually, I pay a lot to MS yearly simply because it's a required fee for my major, and so I'd likely get it through that program anyway.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: If Anything...
by Temcat on Fri 7th Apr 2006 05:41 UTC in reply to "RE: If Anything..."
Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

They even don't have to port MS Office. The real test for willingness to cooperate is opening .doc, .xls and .ppt formats. Which they won't do because it will be the instand end to their monopoly, even if OOo is well behind usability-wise.

So no, they won't cooperate where it matters most - small PR gestures in that direction will be enough for them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: If Anything...
by samad on Sat 8th Apr 2006 07:08 UTC in reply to "RE: If Anything..."
samad Member since:
2006-03-31

HAHAHAHAAHAH

Reply Score: 1

RE: If Anything...
by chemical_scum on Fri 7th Apr 2006 11:29 UTC in reply to "If Anything..."
chemical_scum Member since:
2005-11-02

Well how about complying with the EC and releasing a full set of of documentation specifying its file and print server protocols for the purpose of cross platform intercommunication.

Reply Score: 2

Waaaaaay to go ...
by gustl on Fri 7th Apr 2006 15:00 UTC in reply to "If Anything..."
gustl Member since:
2006-01-19

Well, unfortunately Microsoft still tries to weasel out of making their closed protocols open, which they were ordered to do by the EU commission.

They are even willing to accept a mayor fine to avoid opening their protocols.

That is NOT what I call coexistence.


If they really mean what they say, they put all of those protcol specifications on the net for everybody to read, and a statement that they will not sue anyone for implementing that protocol, even if that implementation violates a patent they own.

The free software and open source communities always try to interoperate with everybody else, loads of protocols, both open and proprietary were implemented by FOSS. Microsoft has to bring their protocols, then FOSS can implement them.

Reply Score: 2

Right idea, wrong angle
by archiesteel on Thu 6th Apr 2006 21:55 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

It is not Linux enthusiasts that do not want to interoperate/coexist with Windows, it is Microsoft who doesn't want to share the computing space with alternatives.

If it hadn't been for MS' underhanded tactics towards competing OSes, I don't think we'd see so much mistrust from the part of Linux users (who WANT their systems to be compatible with MS-based ones).

In other words, MS should first drop the FUD and make some genuine goodwill gestures, then perhaps attitudes will change.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Right idea, wrong angle
by tomcat on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:46 UTC in reply to "Right idea, wrong angle"
tomcat Member since:
2006-01-06

It is not Linux enthusiasts that do not want to interoperate/coexist with Windows, it is Microsoft who doesn't want to share the computing space with alternatives.

Oh, puh-lease. Coexistence starts with respect. I see precious little respect among Linux enthusiasts for Microsoft or Windows.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by Nathan O. on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:36 UTC in reply to "RE: Right idea, wrong angle"
Nathan O. Member since:
2005-08-11

Oh, puh-lease. Coexistence starts with respect. I see precious little respect among Linux enthusiasts for Microsoft or Windows.

Microsoft wont have the respect of the majority until they start acting like they want it. Currently, they behave like a wealthy capitalist entity. That's a great thing, but it doesn't make them any more respectable. Contrast with, say, Google, which is both wealthy *and* aims for geek mindshare proactively.

I see a lot more work going on in the Linux world than in the Windows world toward interoperability. To turn the respect argument around, how is interoperability to be achieved when Microsoft treats Open Source like a minor platform that they're trying to suppress to buy time?

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by ma_d on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:19 UTC in reply to "RE: Right idea, wrong angle"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

Did you read the first half of his post? Why would they respect Microsoft.

We're talking about a company which gave its customers Windows 9x for years when NT was right there, it just wasn't snappy like those Macs (don't get me started on Mac before OS X, I'm not happy with them either).

They took Netscape out (thanks Microsoft, seriously, those guys were scum), and then just stopped working on IE (thanks again, there weren't any bugs, *cough* address bar *cough* standards compliance) for years.

They just told retailers they shouldn't sell PC's without an OS. Why not? They're actually going to investigate retailers for compliance with licensing, wouldn't it be more cost effective to hire some programmers, fire some marketing, and make Windows worth $200?

They fought over ODF in Ma. Why? It was really hard to implement an ODF output filter? And WordstarExpressMega XYZ wasn't?

They keep telling people Windows is cheaper because you don't need as many admins. Guess how many admins runs Linux and probably aren't happy with their bosses being mesmorized with the idea that they don't do anything and can be gotten rid of?

They've helped mold a whole generation of users who believe their computer should work with them, and not vice versa. Do you know how annoying that is? Try explaining that something is a tool, and it's supposed to tell you how to use it. Ever seen a bandsaw with 10 easy steps on the front? No! Because it's dangerous. So is a PC and the internet.

That money they sent SCO a couple years back, yea, we all just loved that one.

Steve Ballmer.


Why would Linux users ever trust Microsoft? Seriously, the company is vicious. It eats its competition, spits it out, and extends what they'd done. Like that if you want, but don't expect others to fall for it.
Linux folk should respect Microsoft the same way you'd respect a ravenous dog: Those teethe are dangerous.


Co-existance in technology starts with "show me the code" as with most everything else. "Respect" is a word which will be thrown all over and hardly ever meant, not that you could discriminate between the two.
Co-existance will start when Microsoft starts writing technologies to do it, and opening protocols to help others write those technologies.


This isn't politics. Co-existance will be achieved when it works, not when someone says they'll do it.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by Get a Life on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Right idea, wrong angle"
Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

I have a lot of respect for many people attached to Microsoft Research. I even like a number of projects and products from various divisions. The company itself is too large and has done too many different things to expect anyone to have any particular fondness for it. It is an amoral corporation that is not simply willing, but is actively expected to sink to depths to provide wealth for its investors, that are simply not respectable traits in people. For that reason, it's difficult to respect any such business in anything but the most superficial sense.

I think coexistence starts with realizing that neither party can cheaply extinguish the other, and that provoking hostilities will result in more harm for both than good for either.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by walterbyrd on Fri 7th Apr 2006 13:27 UTC in reply to "RE: Right idea, wrong angle"
walterbyrd Member since:
2005-12-31

>>Oh, puh-lease. Coexistence starts with respect. I see precious little respect among Linux enthusiasts for Microsoft or Windows.<<

Can't imagine why. Let's take inventory:

Sponsering merritless lawsuit from thugs at scox - purely for the purpose to FUD linux, fake video testomony to the DoJ, fake TCO studies, fake "news" articles, fake grass-roots letter writing campaigns, fake performance studies, fake security studies, fake patents, blantant stealing of other companies technology (stacker), windows faking incompatibilty with dr-dos, documented embrace-extend-embrace strategy (java), msft customers pay for msft infringing on other companies patents (timeline), thugishly attacks CIO of Massachutes who advocates ODF. Thuggish attack on PJ at groklaw? And of course - a convincted monopolist which blantantly disregards DoJ rulings. Also disregards EC ruling.

That is all I can think of right now. But I have to wonder, what is there to respect?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by Trollstoi on Sat 8th Apr 2006 01:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Right idea, wrong angle"
Trollstoi Member since:
2005-11-11

WTF is respect? MS is a business, it's not like a person that will get broken heart if someone calls Windows of Windoze... If it's profitable to MS to cooperate with the Linux World, they will cooperate... If it isn't, they'll just find a way to get rid of Linux. Don't worry about Bill's feelings.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Right idea, wrong angle
by g__t on Fri 7th Apr 2006 09:37 UTC in reply to "Right idea, wrong angle"
g__t Member since:
2006-01-04

"it is Microsoft who doesn't want to share the computing space with alternatives."
Right and wrong, IMHO: *any* corporation try to share with others and at the same time try to not share with others; if the corporation think that sharing with others a certain thing (a piece of code, some specifications etc) an advantage for it's earnings, it will allow it, otherwise will try to avoid it (patents, restrictive licensing, closed source, obfuscated code, price politics, FUD etc).
Some of those things are legal, some others not, and we all knows that MS had (and has) some serious troubles in many countries.
However unfortunately we may see many other examples of companies that defend with similar weapons their own interests, sometimes beyond what allowed by laws (see Sony rootkit), some others in a lawful way (but not less impacting for customers and alterative dealers, see how Apple closed the clone era and dealed the menace of BeOS).
Any big corporation has a little army of layers, and they are not there for nothing...

Reply Score: 2

IkeKrull
Member since:
2006-01-24

What could the OSS community do to get MS more interested in cooperating?

This post is full of sanctimonious garbage but very short on a practical solution.

How can Linux cooperate better than it already does with Windows - assuming that SMB, NTFS, DirectX, the Win32 APIs and all the new Vista APIs remain entirely closed, undocumented and subject to patents that effectively barr interoperability or re-implementation in the US at least?

Reply Score: 5

You'd like to trust 'em
by alucinor on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:39 UTC
alucinor
Member since:
2006-01-06

I know we all would like to trust Microsoft, but any company or entity who has trusted Microsoft has just been burned. This has happened time and time again.

I suspect that Microsoft will get enough trust from the current generation of competition (Firefox, Linux, JBoss, etc.) that Microsoft will embrace, and then extend -- one last time. I see the WPF as the trojan horse this time.

If Microsoft does use WPF as an embrace-and-extend tactic, however, I think this will be the last time they will get away with it. This would be the last bridge to burn.

Edited 2006-04-06 22:40

Reply Score: 1

RE: You'd like to trust 'em
by WorknMan on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:06 UTC in reply to "You'd like to trust 'em"
WorknMan Member since:
2005-11-13

I know we all would like to trust Microsoft, but any company or entity who has trusted Microsoft has just been burned. This has happened time and time again.

Here's a little secret for you .. it's not wise to trust Microsoft. In fact, it's not wise to trust any business of marginal size that is out to make a profit - not Novell, not Readhat, not Apple .. nobody. The only exception this is if whatever you are trusting them for stands a good chance of making them a lot of money. In that case, you should be in good shape. Otherwise, run the other direction ;)

The only time a business ever does the right thing is when it's somehow more advantageous to them than doing the wrong thing, and the reverse is also true. If you ever wonder if a company will do the right or wrong thing, just look at which option stands to serve their best interest. For example, even if doing the wrong thing will earn them more money, you have to weight that against how much bad PR they'll get for doing it. Bad PR is to corporations what kryptonite is to Superman ;)

Edited 2006-04-06 23:08

Reply Score: 2

Move along
by korpenkraxar on Thu 6th Apr 2006 22:49 UTC
korpenkraxar
Member since:
2005-09-10

Nothing to see here. Perfectly uninteresting article. The whole Linux vs. Windows thing is BS (as been repeated for so long). If MS misses business opportunities, which they might with a late Vista, a young libre, technical and not very rich "western" generation and a rapidly growing "eastern" market, there will be opportunities for other projects or companies pushing Linux-based solutions. The apps, functionality and compatibility will come, if it is actually sought after. But there is no uniform Linux agenda for world domination, and thus no key-innovations to get to that goal. The beast is out there, and if it attracts enough developers to mutate into many different shapes (and it already has, more than any other OS), some of them will manage to survive. It's evolution baby, and business.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Move along
by Al2001 on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:12 UTC in reply to "Move along"
Al2001 Member since:
2005-07-06

Didn't you just write another Windows VS Linux thing there?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Move along
by KenJackson on Fri 7th Apr 2006 01:19 UTC in reply to "Move along"
KenJackson Member since:
2005-07-18

Windows thing is BS...

Yes, even the author seems to agree with you. Consider this:

Over the long run it would be smart for Linux developers to grow towards living with Windows. ... stressing coexistence. The existing solutions for these problems, like WINE and Samba, can work well but...

No "buts" about it--WINE, Samba, OOo, and even little utilities like zip and unzip already work together very well to make it easy to "coexist" and "live" with Windows.

Reply Score: 1

Fantasy land
by moleskine on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:19 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

The notion that peaceful and respectful coexistence is possible is a complete fantasy. Companies like Microsoft (and thousands of others) compete in every way they can. Microsoft have always gone out of their way to beat all and any competition. Why are they suddenly going to stop now? Microsoft may be content to confine Linux to a couple of per cent of the desktop - enthusiasts who would probably never buy Windows anyway - but if it spreads further Microsoft are bound to get out the heavy artillery. Nothing personal, just business. They would do the same to Apple, Sun, Sony or anyone else.

As for the notion that Microsoft is opening up: they are currently locked in a bitter dispute with the EC precisely because they don't want to open up by documenting their protocols so that third parties can interoperate better with Windows. Gestures are cheap, sometimes free. Follow the money if you want to see where Microsoft is going. It leads to a door labelled "DRM - Only Authorized Software Permitted". I expect the Microsoft Linux Lab will help with any enquiries should it emerge that Linux and BSD are not sufficiently authorized.

Reply Score: 3

StarTrek
by KenJackson on Fri 7th Apr 2006 01:31 UTC in reply to "Fantasy land"
KenJackson Member since:
2005-07-18

When I read the phrase mannerly coexistence, I immediately thought of the StarTrek episode where the alien scorpion thingies took over human bodies and then claimed, "We only want peaceful coexistence."

Now you are claiming even the possibility is a complete fantasy. OK, you may well be right. But you need an illustration. I hope I've provided that.

Reply Score: 1

Actions speak louder than words
by burtis on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:28 UTC
burtis
Member since:
2005-11-15

I for one will believe the cat has changed his spots when I see it, till then, MS is MS.

Reply Score: 1

MS will do what benefits it's shareholders
by JeffS on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:34 UTC
JeffS
Member since:
2005-07-12

The bottom line is what drives corporations. Thus, large corporations can always be relied on to do whatever is in their self interest, or increasing the value to their shareholders. This is not a moral thing, or immoral thing, it's amoral (in other words, morality doesn't enter the equation).

Since the vast majority of Microsoft's revenue come from the Windows and MSOffice lock-in's, and all of MS's other products are either money losers or generate a small percentage of their revenue, there is no way in hell MS is going to jeopordize their Windows and Office franchises. Thus, MSOffice on Linux, which could help jeopordize the Windows lock-in, won't happen, at least not until there is enough Linux critical mass for the extra license gains from MSOffice on Linux to more than offset the potential loss in Windows licenses.

Another intriguing prospect is the idea that MS could license Win32 and .Net port to Linux. This way, they still have their MSOffice lock-in, and they still get revenue from Win32/.Net or Windows, with no real risk (selling both at the same price structure). And Linux gets a full implementation of Win32 (not the only partially compatible Wine or CrossoverOffice), for a fee that would be comparable to a license of full Windows. Then businesses and consumers could have their cake and eat it too. If they wish, they can migrate to full Linux, with full Win32, and enjoy the advantages of Linux coupled with the compatibility of Windows applications and hardware drivers. And MS still gets Windows-type revenue from licensing Win32, but without the massive development costs of developing, updating, patching, and supporting full Windows (developing Vista has been a massive headache for them). I suspect that due to the problems with getting Vista out, Windows has become too big and complex and bloated for MS to manage and they are looking for a long range strategy of getting out the OS kernel development business, but with still controlling/licensing the API. After all it was Gates that said that he who controls the API wins.

Perhaps that was what was talked about when Steve Ballmer (MS CEO) and Mathew Szulik (Red Hat CEO) had dinner in New York.

But then again, this is probably pure fantasy.

Reply Score: 1

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Another intriguing prospect is the idea that MS could license Win32 and .Net port to Linux. This way, they still have their MSOffice lock-in, and they still get revenue from Win32/.Net or Windows, with no real risk (selling both at the same price structure).

You do realise that mainsoft already does that; they have licenced the Windows source code off Microsoft and via their tools, made it possibly to recompile, with some small adjustments for compiler issues, to compile a Windows application and get it up and running on UNIX.

Remember IE and Outlook for Solaris SPARC? that was accomplished using Mainsoft; so right now, there is nothing technologically stopping Adobe, Corel or what have you from making their software available - what is stopping them is the lack of a good business case to justify the expensive and as a result bring in a decent ROI - ROI, that is the key word, if they're not going to get a good return on the time and money invested into their product, then they're simply not going to make the move.

Sorry, all the indicators so far points that Linux users aren't willing to purchase software - mention Photoshop in the presence of a Linux zealot and he'll scream at you, claiming that you don't need 'high priced software' and give some extremely bad example of how GIMP is superior.

As for Microsoft, they simply don't care about Linux on the desktop; from what I see, Linux desktop users are moving to MacOS X for their desktop needs - they get the UNIX features with access to mainstream applications like Microsoft Office; and as for Linux, it'll simply be, like all UNIX's, something that runs on the server, away from the eye of the public.

Reply Score: 2

Ookaze Member since:
2005-11-14

right now, there is nothing technologically stopping Adobe, Corel or what have you from making their software available - what is stopping them is the lack of a good business case to justify the expensive and as a result bring in a decent ROI

Given all the people that ask for these apps, given the OSDL polls that show that a lot of businesses want these apps on their Linux desktops, given the success of CrossOver Office, I'll say what you say is just plain BS. Linux people already have to buy a license of Adobe/Corel/... products for Windows, and then spend again money to buy CrossOver Office or Cedega. And you have guts telling me these people would not rather pay for the native apps ? Where are the market studies made by these companies to know the ROI would not be good ?

Sorry, all the indicators so far points that Linux users aren't willing to purchase software

Sorry, the success of CrossOver or Cedega is proof to the contrary.
What you say is true only when your "indicators" are Windows zealots or anti-Linux zealots, which seems to be the case for you.

mention Photoshop in the presence of a Linux zealot and he'll scream at you, claiming that you don't need 'high priced software' and give some extremely bad example of how GIMP is superior

And on Windows, most people will say you the same thing with Paint Shop Pro for example.
People like you want us to believe that only Photoshop exists and is good for everyone, and that everyone pays for it on Windows.
Perhaps in your world of pirate everyone has Photoshop, that's not the case with any of my users. The price alone would make them flee.

As for Microsoft, they simply don't care about Linux on the desktop

Of course, that's why they funded a european fund to give huge discounts to prevent any Linux desktop deployment in Europe.
You're just an unreliable source of information. Linux users that don't care about MS are more aware of MS actions than you, due to most of these MS actions being against FOSS.

from what I see, Linux desktop users are moving to MacOS X for their desktop needs - they get the UNIX features with access to mainstream applications like Microsoft Office

Good, you are well mislead by your environment. Fortunately, you never understood what Free Software was about, nor why FOSS was on the rise.
Freedom is an alien thing to you (to MS too). I understand your view of Linux desktop though, if you think MacOS X is the solution : a somewhat very limited view with blinders.

and as for Linux, it'll simply be, like all UNIX's, something that runs on the server, away from the eye of the public

Keep your head in the sand, that's good. If only MS could do the same and leave us alone ...

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: If Anything...
by archiesteel on Thu 6th Apr 2006 23:58 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

I agree with you as well, there's little chance of it happening - not now, at least. It could be conceivable in the future, if Linux continues to gain acceptance for example.

For now, however, MS' entire PC strategy rests on control of its Office file formats, which gives it a near-monopoly on Office Suites, and in turn a near-monopoly on Operating Systems. Which is why, if the DOJ had really wanted to punish MS, they would have forced them to open these file formats, which have become de facto standards in the business world.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by archiesteel on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:03 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Oh, puh-lease. Coexistence starts with respect. I see precious little respect among Linux enthusiasts for Microsoft or Windows.

Did you read anything of what I wrote, or is this another one of your knee-jerk pro-Microsoft responses? I've never seen anything even remotely critical of Microsoft coming out of you. I'm sorry, but at this point I really believe that you're an astroturfer.

Anyway, at the risk of repeating myself, the fact that Linux users don't respect Microsoft is that MS has time and time again attacked Linux, spread FUD about it and tried to put all sorts of hurdles in the way of those trying to make Linux interoperate with Windows.

If Linux users have no respect for your employer, it's because your employer was first in showing no respect to them. Period.

Edited 2006-04-07 00:05

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: If Anything...
by rcsteiner on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:39 UTC
rcsteiner
Member since:
2005-07-12

If OOo is so pathetic, use something else. It and word aren't the only two alternatives.

I regularly use tools like Lotus WordPro or StarWriter on this box, for example, and there's always WordPerfect as well for Windows and Linux users (if you can find the Linux version).

Unless you have a fixation with only using major players (something I find boring, at least here at home <g>).

Browser: Links (0.99; OS/2 1 i386; 80x33)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: If Anything...
by ma_d on Fri 7th Apr 2006 00:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: If Anything..."
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

I've tried koffice, abiword, neither handle numbers properly.

I'm not gonna pay for something to find out it doesn't handle numbers lists right.

I typically use latex.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: If Anything...
by Get a Life on Fri 7th Apr 2006 01:01 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: If Anything..."
Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

Plus using outdated software for the purposes of interoperating with other people's files from new Office releases would be pretty pointless, and packages without task parity don't alleviate interoperability concerns much either.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: If Anything...
by ma_d on Fri 7th Apr 2006 03:12 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: If Anything..."
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

Honestly, I really don't follow what you mean. Packages without task parity? It must be late.

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: If Anything...
by Get a Life on Fri 7th Apr 2006 03:59 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: If Anything..."
Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

An "office suite" or even just a single program that doesn't have equivalent and compatible functionality for each of the relevant components of Office that is necessary for one's compatibility purposes. For example, perhaps one wants compatibility with PowerPoint (cringe), some random non-OO.org suite might not afford one such compatibility.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: If Anything...
by Trollstoi on Sat 8th Apr 2006 01:12 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: If Anything..."
Trollstoi Member since:
2005-11-11

Because the whole point of using the major players is being able to use the file formats that most people are likely to send to you?

Reply Score: 1

Point of View
by gregk on Fri 7th Apr 2006 01:49 UTC
gregk
Member since:
2006-03-13

Why are all these articles written from the standpoint that Linux must cooperate with Microsoft and not the other way around?

Personally, I'd love it if windows was more compatible with standards that allowed interoperability, hell I'd probably even buy a copy of XP to upgrade my aging Win98SE and Win2k machines that I have to use for specific apps, this way I could run a linux box and windows box side-by-side instead of only using windows when I have to.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Point of View
by rattaro on Fri 7th Apr 2006 02:13 UTC in reply to "Point of View"
rattaro Member since:
2005-08-22

>Why are all these articles written from the standpoint that Linux must cooperate with Microsoft and not the other way around?

Great question, and one I never understood either. Linux is ALWAYS trying to be more compatible with Windows. It's MS that ALWAYS tries to be incompatible with Linux for their own good reasons. The author talks about WINE, NTFS, porting of software, and SMB (although not mentioned by name). ALL of these are incomplete due to MS not cooperating with Linux, not the other way around. This article seems thoughtless and naive.

Reply Score: 5

A problem with no solution...
by StychoKiller on Fri 7th Apr 2006 02:38 UTC
StychoKiller
Member since:
2005-09-20

At one time, there were those that thought that it was
wrong to participate in an arms race with the Soviet Union here in the USA (and maybe they were right, given the enormous expenditures of money on weaponry), but at no time (on either side) was anyone proposing unilateral disarmament, taken seriously by either side. These people were looked at as crackpots at best and perhaps tools/spies for the other side at worst (which earned you a onw-way train ticket to a gulag). No one wins in a standoff (until one side implodes apparently), so to argue otherwise flies in the face of Human nature.
Sorry, that's just the way it is.

Reply Score: 1

SamuraiCrow
Member since:
2005-11-19

Linux, unlike Windows, was not designed to make money. It was designed to fulfill purposes as much open-source software is. It happens to fulfill many of the same purposes as Windows. As long as Microsoft feels their cash cows are threatened there will be spreading of FUD about switching to Linux and many other problems introduced by Microsoft to get in the way of interoperability.

The solution is not clear but that does not mean that one side or the other will stop. I think that some Linux tools have been ported to other operating systems just because they are open-source and this alone is enough to guarentee some interoperability. As has previously been noted, Windows source code will not offer the same degree of interoperability since it is closed source.

Put simply: Open standards are the way to go and as long as Microsoft supports open standards then there can be peace between them and the rest of the world. The minute Microsoft tries to lock people in to their way of thinking too much and third-parties such as Linux will appear just to stop them from getting their way.

Reply Score: 1

Gestures I want to see from Microsoft
by kosmonaut on Fri 7th Apr 2006 06:43 UTC
kosmonaut
Member since:
2005-09-27

The mentioned move are clearly geared towards positioning MS in the virtualization market. Virtual Server technology is not Microsoftīs they just bought Connectix Corporation a couple years ago and changed the name to the "Virtual PC" software. Their aim is making VMWare out of the game, thus making sure people donīt use Windows inside Linux easily.

Their Linux labs were just created to study the "enemy" and to clone Linux features inside Windows. Then again they will "extend" the Linux standards to make them out of the game.

Until the time comes when I see the following 4 things happening, any action from Microsoft related to Linux can be safely and automatically considered as a strategic move towards defending their market share against Linux and throwing the competition out of the market. This is what we need to see:

I do not want Office in Linux. WTF for? Microsoft must JUST PLAIN ADOPT AND SUPPORT ODF in their products.
Stop complaining and derailing the standards adoption.YES, they can do it and NO, they donīt want to support a truly open document format, since one of the factors for MS survival is vendor Lock-IN.

Open and Document your server protocols so Windows can work decently with SAMBA, that is one of the reasons why the European Union is about to fine Microsoft daily.
It would also be nice if they help the Wine guys doing their job.

RESPECT the standards (W3C, etc) stop Embrace+Extend+Extinguish.

Stop FUD and campaigns against Linux. Stop suggesting (Hello Ballmer!) or funding third partiesī(SCO) legal actions against Linux companies by claiming false patent infractions.

Once I have seen that I would permit myself to feel safer with Microsoft but until then: everyone Beware!

Edited 2006-04-07 06:56

Reply Score: 5

Reminds me of game theory
by Kris on Fri 7th Apr 2006 13:44 UTC
Kris
Member since:
2005-07-24

I don't know why but this reminds me of game theory. The FLOSS-world should just go TID for TAD in regard to microsoft. Offer initial cooperation (guess we did that) and then react to hostility with counter hostility, react to niceness with niceness but nontheless forget quickly.

Hostility vs. hostility: Well I guess we could call it flamewars ;) Other than that there's the FSF reacting to FUD with counter-FUD etc.

Niceness vs. niceness: There was not very much niceness to react upun but as pointed out in the first post we're getting some now. Time to react.

Forgetting quickly: This is what we might want to work on.

Of course the FLOSS-world is made up of very different people and oppinions so it's not all that easy. Maybe a general trend is what we could hope for. However personally I cannot forget that easiely because after all it's Microsoft we're dealing with here ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Reminds me of game theory
by ma_d on Fri 7th Apr 2006 20:50 UTC in reply to "Reminds me of game theory"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

Because if both don't they both lose, if one does and the other doesn't it loses, and if neither do they both win?
Not exactly, but pretty close to game theory.

Reply Score: 1

Another take...
by Quoth_the_Raven on Fri 7th Apr 2006 13:55 UTC
Quoth_the_Raven
Member since:
2005-11-15

Well, now with Boot Camp on the Apple side, it's clearly between Windows and OS X. Come to think of it, I think the Mac is the only computer now that can run all three OSs natively!

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Right idea, wrong angle
by embleau on Fri 7th Apr 2006 15:57 UTC
embleau
Member since:
2005-12-05

"We're talking about a company which gave its customers Windows 9x for years when NT was right there, it just wasn't snappy like those Macs (don't get me started on Mac before OS X, I'm not happy with them either).
"

lol... this statement makes me chuckle hard. Ignorance is Bliss I guess...

1. NT was NOT right there... during the Win9x "Hayday" the NT kernel was still in its infancy. What would have happened if MS released NT4.0 to the home user? LOL... At least Win9x had plug and Pray...opps...Play. and ok multimedia support. NT4?... No Plug and Play and shotty Multimedia support. MS billed NT4 as a BUSINESS OS. Windows 2000 was suppose to be release as a home OS too, but was scrapped because the multimedia support and the DirectX API was not 100% there at release. (This was fixed in later Service Packs and DirectX drivers) They SMARTLY waited until XP (NT5.1) to bring the NT Kernel to the home.

I feel this was a SMART move and was not done to be JERKS to its customers. Can you imagine the outcry if MS dropped Win9X and went fully into NT in the NT4.0 days??? JEEBUS! (What?!! I can use my sound card?, What? I can't play that game?, What? I can't use this Win16 app?) etc etc etc etc etc etc.

I hope, me being an administrator at a school district, that MS does work for better interopertibility. We use a mixed Linux/Win2003/WinXP environment and the cross working of AD and OpenLDAP is a BEAR!

Reply Score: 1

Don't need M$
by AxXium on Fri 7th Apr 2006 17:27 UTC
AxXium
Member since:
2005-12-30

I live a very productive and happy live without using any products from MicroSoft.

I installed Linux on my machines and invested time to learn how to use them and I am very happy I did.

The point of this rant is, not everyone cares either way what happens to MS.

So not everyone needs to get along with some company they don't care about.

Microsoft is a company that provides no software that interests me enough to spend tons of money, especially when I can get simular software for free.

To me, MS is just another software company that I'm not intersted in.

I get what I need from the open source community, so no thank you MS, keep on moving. :-)

AxXium

Reply Score: 1

Goodwill gestures
by proforma on Fri 7th Apr 2006 23:08 UTC
proforma
Member since:
2005-08-27

>In other words, MS should first drop the FUD and
>make some genuine goodwill gestures, then perhaps
>attitudes will change.

The person above you just mentioned some of these gestures that just happened this week and you dismissed them.

Reply Score: 1

Incoming Anecdote
by smittal on Sat 8th Apr 2006 05:49 UTC
smittal
Member since:
2006-02-03

An example of how well Windows interoperates: I had a linux install on a 200GB HD, and on a whim I decided to install a copy of Windows XP. First attempt: I boot into the installer, and it doesn't recognize the partition table on the 200GB HD. I add a 80GB HD and try again, telling it to format the spare HD. The result? It begins formatting the 200GB HD, and I'm forced to hard reset to save my data. It took me all night to salvage my data (I didn't have a rescue disk ready, and it took forever to find a blank CD-R).

Before this experience, I merely disliked Windows. I now hate it.

Reply Score: 2