Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 9th Apr 2006 18:10 UTC, submitted by Jack Dawson
Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu Troubles for the Kubuntu project: a number of Kubuntu developers are complaining that Canonical is not answering their requests. They state: "We all from the kubuntu.de-team have pursued this aim [to improve Kubuntu] together, but most of the work has been done by Andreas Mueller (amu). He is not only co-founder and unpayed developer of the Kubuntu-project, but he's also hosting this website and he's taking over all the arising expenses. During our endeavours for Kubuntu, there were made several requests to Canonical. All those requests are unanswered 'till today! Up to now, there is only one payed developer. Since Canonical ignores all our personal and partly financial engagement until now we have to assume that Canonical is not willing to make Kubuntu a '1st class distribution'."
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This is not good news.......
by silicon on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:01 UTC
silicon
Member since:
2005-07-30

This is not good news for Mark Shuttleworth since Dapper is nearing release (It's only 5 weeks now.). I also read that (amu) would be ending his commitment to kubuntu and it will kill off my favorite distro. Its sad to note that
Canonical hasn't provided any financial resources as and when requested by the Kubuntu team.

Reply Score: 4

RE: This is not good news.......
by Celerate on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:51 UTC in reply to "This is not good news......."
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

Perhaps the Kubuntu developers should fork and wait for the original Kubuntu to die off on it's own over what little time it will have left after that. Then they can be their own entity with control over their own finiances and support. I do believe that with (K)Ubuntu 5.10 the whole KDE aspect of the distribution wasn't given nearly as much attention as Gnome.

If they don't find forking to be an ideal solution perhaps they could go off and work on one of the other existing KDE centered distributions.

As far as money goes, only one of them is payed according to the article stub, so it's not like the majority of them will be loosing anything else along with their affiliation to Canonical.

Reply Score: 1

Off course not
by sbenitezb on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:07 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

They want Ubuntu and GNOME to be the first class distro. Supporting different desktop environments is not easy, and more if you need to convince people to change. You don't give them choice of DE, just like MS doesn't give you the choice. People needs something that works good, they don't like choice, if not, masses would be using anything else.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Off course not
by g2devi on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:49 UTC in reply to "Off course not"
g2devi Member since:
2005-07-09

Actually, it's a bit more complex. Ubuntu is three things:

1) a stabilized Debian unstable that focuses on the latest and greatest of all desktop (GNOME, KDE, XFCE) and server tools that's supported by Canonical and other service providers on Ubuntu.com and Launchpad.net

2) A tailored GNOME distro that focuses on ease of use that's supported by Canonical and other service providers on Ubuntu.com and Launchpad.net.

3) A group of community driven projects like Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edubuntu, Ubuntu server, Embedded Ubuntu, .... that are not directly supported by Canonical but depend on the latest and greatest being in (1). These projects seem welcome on Launchpad.net or Ubuntu.com or Ubuntuforums.org and some community driven projects live there (e.g. Ubuntu server or embedded ubuntu), but those that want to live somewhere else (e.g. Kubuntu.org or Edubuntu.org or ubuntustudio.com) seem to have to pay their own way to gain that independence. Kubuntu (at least) is a full class citizen of Ubuntuforums.

Canonical is a small company that can't do everything, but if Kubuntu wanted to host their site on Ubuntu.com or Launchpad.net like some other projects, I don't think Canonical (or the new Ubuntu Foundation) would treat them differently than the other community driven projects.

Personally, I think the Kubuntu developers should try something different -- ask for the KDE foundation to help host it. Kubuntu is a spotlight for many KDE technologies and is good advertising for KDE. I'm sure it would be one of the first places that the new Simple KDE and Plasma technologies get showcased. As long as Canonical and the Ubuntu Foundation support the "a stabilized Debian unstable with KDE in it" as they have in the past, Kubuntu's job is half done. MEPIS's move to Ubuntu's "stabilized Debian unstable with KDE in it" can only help.

Reply Score: 5

And why would they expect it?
by wahgnube on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:08 UTC
wahgnube
Member since:
2006-01-28

It's not like as if Canonical promised something to the Kubuntu people in the first place, and are pulling the rug out from under their feet. Canonical is focussing on building their distribution---one that happens to focus on GNOME on the desktop---and Kubuntu was and is a project started and run by volunteers. Why this sudden surprise?

If they do decide to help out, fine. If they don't, it doesn't make them evil.

Reply Score: 5

RE: And why would they expect it?
by segedunum on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:26 UTC in reply to "And why would they expect it?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not like as if Canonical promised something to the Kubuntu people in the first place

Well, in a manner of speaking they did:

http://www.kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-commitment.php

one that happens to focus on GNOME on the desktop

Ubuntu focues on Gnome, Kubuntu on KDE. There isn't one whole.

Kubuntu was and is a project started and run by volunteers.

Nope, it's actually a supported offshoot.

Reply Score: 5

is it really that big a deal?
by kamper on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:10 UTC
kamper
Member since:
2005-08-20

I have a hard time being concerned about this. Making another distro for the sake of using a different wm is silly. Why can't they just work on kde support for ubuntu, even if it's not an option by default. I'm sure most people setting up kubuntu for themselves these days would be plenty capable of using a package manager to install kde.

Reply Score: 4

RE: is it really that big a deal?
by porcel on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:26 UTC in reply to "is it really that big a deal?"
porcel Member since:
2006-01-28

KDE is not a window manager and Kubuntu was born out of necessity, because plenty of people, Linus included, cannot get their work done on Gnome.

For many of us, it's simply too restricting, lacks too many of the fundamentals applications (see KDE-edu or the many utilities (Kdirstat, kreplace and lacks the sort of integrated development environment that KDE is praised and known for.

But let's not turn this into an endless gnome vs. kde thread. That's not what this thread is about. The fact that KDE was so well recieved and that Mark himself welcomed it tells you that it was very much needed and not just born out of some whimsical decision.

Reply Score: 5

RE: is it really that big a deal?
by segedunum on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:29 UTC in reply to "is it really that big a deal?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm sure most people setting up kubuntu for themselves these days would be plenty capable of using a package manager to install kde.

I just wonder what some people would say if the roles were reversed. "Oh, just use a package manager to install Gnome".

Reply Score: 5

pinky Member since:
2005-07-15

It would be no problem. They do it for example if they use slackware.

Reply Score: 0

CVDpr Member since:
2005-10-17

if the roles get reversed.. Well im gonna search for a another distro.

Reply Score: 1

Pitty
by IgorKH on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:12 UTC
IgorKH
Member since:
2005-07-13

Another good open source project falls in the net of politics...

Reply Score: 4

Ridiculous! RE: Pitty
by aquila_deus on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:29 UTC in reply to "Pitty"
aquila_deus Member since:
2005-10-02

Do you suppose all *good* open source projects should get fund from related companies? (or, do you think every linux service companies should sponsor all open-source projects?) How ridiculous this is?!

The only thing Canonical did bad is to respond too lately.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Ridiculous! RE: Pitty
by IgorKH on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:02 UTC in reply to "Ridiculous! RE: Pitty"
IgorKH Member since:
2005-07-13

Not at all, but rather that many good and promising projects can fall on the basis of political argument.

It is not that I neccecarily think that Cannonical should or should not financially support Kubuntu, but the fact that the project is dragged into setting ultimatums and the like is a pitty.

Reply Score: 2

RE: is it really that big a deal?
by sbenitezb on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:13 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

I agree, but is not just installing KDE in your Ubuntu. There are lots of tweaks behind to make it Kubuntu.

Reply Score: 5

by Lazarus on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:14 UTC
Lazarus
Member since:
2005-08-10

The obvious solution is to adopt the GPL and all their money troubles would go away. Oh wait.

Reply Score: 5

Don't waste your time Canonical
by pete on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:18 UTC
pete
Member since:
2006-03-24

I don't understand why they supported Kubuntu at the beginning. I thought Ubuntu was about creating a streamlined distribution. They chose Gnome as the default environment, so why wasting time/money with KDE? Not that most of their target audience (Windows users) would care or even know what the difference is.

If these people want a Debian based distribtion with KDE as default desktop they can make it on their own.

(Note: this comes from a German. I couldn't care less about KDE, imo they should give up completely and stop dividing Linux on the desktop.)

Reply Score: 5

RE: Don't waste your time Canonical
by zeeto on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:31 UTC in reply to "Don't waste your time Canonical"
zeeto Member since:
2005-08-12

I agree on the subject that Canonical just need to care about their original desktop.

But personaly I think that GNOME is the one that should give up. It is so badly engineered, poorly documented, very slow. Also, you should know that GNOME is the dividing ones.

Reply Score: 4

TheMonoTone Member since:
2006-01-01

Give up? Stop Dividing? The whole reason Gnome exists is because KDE had licensing problems in the beginning, that hasn't been an issue for awhile now...

Reply Score: 2

new kubuntu
by kill on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:30 UTC
kill
Member since:
2005-11-03

I bet linus is pissed why gnome. Ok, just drag that gnome-panel down to the bottom of the screen and call it kubuntu.

Reply Score: 0

Mepis to replace Kubuntu?
by fuzzybud on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:40 UTC
fuzzybud
Member since:
2006-04-09

Mepis is testing the waters to be the KDE version of Ubuntu by linking to Ubuntu repositories with its experimental Mepis 6.0. Warren said he would make a decision in May if he would follow through on this linkage. Before this news from Kubuntu I thought Mepis would be a good replacement for Kubuntu because Mepis is more mature in development and because it is ready for newbies to use without much understanding of Linux.

Reply Score: 3

WTF?
by maxx_730 on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:41 UTC
maxx_730
Member since:
2005-12-14

What the f--k? The article on kubuntu.de sounds like they're trying to blackmail Mark Shuttleworth. Hell, it's not even the homepage of the kubuntu project, it's just one volunteer who seems to think he'd be employed by canonical for some reason. Seriously, i think ubuntu should drop KDE support altogether. It's not like it has had anything innovative lately anyway, all recent innovations have been for gnome, like:
- xgl/compiz
- beagle
- networkmanager
- all hot new mono apps like banshee, diva etc

Reply Score: 5

RE: WTF?
by mariux on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:00 UTC in reply to "WTF?"
mariux Member since:
2005-11-13

- xgl/compiz
XGL is not gnome specific, and compiz will support kde in time.

- networkmanager
Simular apps exist for kde

- all hot new mono apps like banshee, diva etc
Seems the kde-devs are satisfied with c++/qt and dont have such a big need for c#/mono

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: WTF?
by maxx_730 on Mon 10th Apr 2006 13:17 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF?"
maxx_730 Member since:
2005-12-14

- xgl/compiz
XGL is not gnome specific, and compiz will support kde in time.

I know, but my point was that it was designed for gnome, and later ported to KDE

- networkmanager
Simular apps exist for kde

True. but they're kde copies of the initial gnome networkmanager

- all hot new mono apps like banshee, diva etc
Seems the kde-devs are satisfied with c++/qt and dont have such a big need for c#/mono

Sure, but i dont see any new innovative apps coming out of it (except maybe amarok).

Also the new gstreamer framework is another great example. KDE users are still left with the unmaintaned arts framework.

Reply Score: 1

RE: WTF?
by siki_miki on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:30 UTC in reply to "WTF?"
siki_miki Member since:
2006-01-17

If canonical drops Kubuntu, I'm dropping their distro.
Seriously, I don't understand why mainstream distros push GNOME so much lately (although KDE is clearly more popular). RedHat bases it's compositing manager work on metacity, Novell bases it'snew desktop on GNOME, and KDE in ubuntu is obviously second class product.

Personally, I'm more comfortable with KDE. Agreeing with Linux, GNOME is too dumbed down for me.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: WTF?
by kiddo on Sun 9th Apr 2006 23:46 UTC in reply to "RE: WTF?"
kiddo Member since:
2005-07-23

If Canonical dropped Ubuntu (GNOME), I would be dropping their distro.
Seriously, I don't understand why you are arguing about this. Some people like KDE. Some people like GNOME. Few people are crazy enough to love both. Get on with it.

Corporate environments tend to prefer GNOME, and so the money of Novell and Redhat is primarily aimed at GNOME.

Now that the flamewar is started, could anyone care enough to point me a link to what the kubuntu dudes actually REQUEST from Canonical so that I know what's the matter here? Thanks.

Reply Score: 5

RE: WTF?
by TheMonoTone on Sun 9th Apr 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "WTF?"
TheMonoTone Member since:
2006-01-01

I don't argue with the blackmail portion, he started off as a volunteer, the best he can do is ask nicely for pay, thats how OSS works.

KDE hasn't been innovative lately likely due to their effort in putting together KDE 4, which in fact, will be innovative from the looks of it. So instead of some hackish type "ooooooo, ahhhh, that looks pretty" thing, maybe we'll have something usable and good looking desktop.

Reply Score: 2

Not a Good Announcement
by segedunum on Sun 9th Apr 2006 19:58 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

Having said all that, this is the kubuntu.de local offshoot here, not kubuntu.org, so you have to be careful about talking about the support of Kubuntu by Canonical. It's still there, but perhaps not at enough of a critical mass that some people devoting a large part of their time to it would like.

It isn't a good announcement either. The English interpretation of the message does not sound good, and in effect it sounds like some sort of ransom:

Unless all the requests made by Andreas Müller are answered till 15.04.2006

* kubuntu.de will shut down including its forum and mailing lists
* Amu will stop developing Kubuntu
* there will be no booth at LinuxTag


and this:

To clarify the seriousness of the situation, kubuntu.de will be offline for one week beginning as from monday, 10.04.2006.

just seems unecessary. If they're closing down then they're closing down, surely? You don't just take something offline for a week having issued some demands.

On the other side of the coin, Kubuntu is a 100% supported derivative of the core - which Canonical can be paid for. Presumably, some developers of Kubuntu are taking a significant amount of the development burden without too much in return and too much support.

It's difficult to know quite what to read into this.

Edited 2006-04-09 20:00

Reply Score: 5

Ouch
by moleskine on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:02 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

Sounds tough if true rather than a "spat" that will be healed up quickly. All that work. I hope the Kubuntu team calm down and try to work out a rational new best course, rather than simply down tools and walk away. This would be a big waste since if you want to see KDE shown off at its best Kubuntu is one of the key places to look. Maybe the recent decision by the KDE-based Mepis to track Ubuntu rather than Debian hasn't helped. That is kind of competitive with Kubuntu and Mepis is the more popular, one guesses.

Just my 2 cents, but while I like and use Ubuntu on my laptop I wouldn't give my main PC over to a one-man band distro (or at least a one-man bankrolled one). It's just too risky if something goes wrong with yer man. Debian is the real home of deb to me, and with +/- one thousand developers behind it Debian has the kind of solid foundations that will always make the project bigger than the people. Nuff said.

Edited 2006-04-09 20:10

Reply Score: 3

Move Along, Nothing to See
by jriddell on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:14 UTC
jriddell
Member since:
2006-04-09

I'm Canonical's developer for Kubuntu.

In my opinion this issue has been over exaggerated by the Kubuntu.de community. The issue was only that one of our developers didn't get his account re-created when kubuntu.org moved to a new server. The Canonical sysadmin is busy and things got missed. He's added the account now, so it's business as usual.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Move Along, Nothing to See
by ghee22 on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:25 UTC in reply to "Move Along, Nothing to See"
ghee22 Member since:
2005-11-19

thanks for clearing things up; it's understandable that everyone at canonical is extremely busy, when a consistent schedule is delayed by 6 weeks (dapper).

Keep up the great work!

Reply Score: 5

RE: Move Along, Nothing to See
by divansantana on Sun 9th Apr 2006 20:46 UTC
divansantana
Member since:
2005-12-15

I agree with siki_miki.

Canonical and Mark have said things about Kubuntu improving etc but have given it so little attention. If this sort of thing continues I certainly will swap to another distro which would be a pity because I have loved kubuntu and ubuntu's ways.

But why only focus all attention on gnome? Linux is about choice.

As for jriddell, I've liked his work and support for KDE/Kubuntu however his/your comments I found to be very poor.

Move/along nothing to see - please. People are not stupid. Kubuntu.de's complaints were not about an account not being created but about no answers or feedback from Canonical. No communication between Canonical and community supported Kubuntu. That is a BIG problem.

I understand they are perhaps making it bigger and threatining is not the best way to do that but jriddell don't make things seem like theres no problem when Kubuntu uses like myself have noticed for ages how Mark has backed Kubuntu verbally but not in any other way.

Reply Score: 1

RE: RE: Move Along, Nothing to See
by markpeak on Mon 10th Apr 2006 10:11 UTC in reply to " RE: Move Along, Nothing to See"
markpeak Member since:
2005-07-06

>But why only focus all attention on gnome? Linux is about choice.

Right, Linux is about choice but I think Ubuntu has stated itself clearly for choosing Gnome.

Reply Score: 1

KDE needs its own distro
by slate on Sun 9th Apr 2006 21:14 UTC
slate
Member since:
2006-04-04

They could base it on debian or ubuntu or whatever, but as long as they let 3rd parties take responsibility for promoting their desktop it'll never go anywhere.

There are lots of advantages to this. First off, they control all libraries on the system as well as the kernel builds. They can take advantage of features that another distro wouldn't.

One of the reasons so many people are switching to OSX from Linux is because OSX is a cohesive system. KDE could build that cohesive system. They could even have a KDE-BSD, but the point is that the entire stack all the way down would be under their control.

Of course this goes against the groupthink mentality that Linux has built up over the years, but things don't change unless you're willing to make a change.

Reply Score: 1

not surprising
by cg0def on Sun 9th Apr 2006 21:15 UTC
cg0def
Member since:
2006-02-12

well I hate to say this but maybe all the devs should've stayed with debian.

Reply Score: 1

RE: not surprising
by kiddo on Sun 9th Apr 2006 23:52 UTC in reply to "not surprising"
kiddo Member since:
2005-07-23

Yeah, so I would be using GNOME 2.8 or KDE 3.3 on their "stable" branch? ;)

Reply Score: 3

Pay fot the website?
by h-milch-mann on Sun 9th Apr 2006 21:55 UTC
h-milch-mann
Member since:
2005-10-27

but he's also hosting this website and he's taking over all the arising expenses.
Oh let's see who pays for the official german ubuntu forums - The users donate for it and no cheque from canonical.
But surely the ubuntu-de is way smaller than the kubuntu forums? Nope, they are even 10x bigger.
Damn. And they don't even have a shop like the kubuntu site.

Reply Score: 1

Sorry to hear this
by Governa on Sun 9th Apr 2006 23:48 UTC
Governa
Member since:
2006-04-09

I'm sorry to hear this but we all know Ubuntu is the main distro and Canonical will always focus on Gnome. I like Ubuntu and I can always make it work like Kubuntu easialy (forget the small tweaks, it works fine).

Reply Score: 1

Kubuntu is Canonical
by John Blink on Sun 9th Apr 2006 23:56 UTC
John Blink
Member since:
2005-10-11

Does Kubuntu = Canonical?

or the *buntu's?

Reply Score: 1

Really the better choice?
by hhcv on Mon 10th Apr 2006 00:02 UTC
hhcv
Member since:
2005-11-12

The thing I lvoe about Ubuntu is that it all fits on to one CD, and offers a pretty much integrated desktop/server environment. While I can see the value in supporting KDE, (and Mark uses Kubuntu don't forget!), I don't think 2 completely different DEs fit into what made Ubuntu so popular in the first place.

Indeed, with Ubuntu's push for industry certification and entry into the enterprise they will need to be as consistant as possible - putting two faces on what is essentially the same beast is purhaps not the best way doing that.

Good on the Kubuntu team for giving a community what they want, and fighting for those resources. Ubuntu, keep doing what you do best. Mark, perhaps give the Kubuntu team a donation for that fine desktop you run?

Reply Score: 2

The Actual Story
by dumbkiwi on Mon 10th Apr 2006 00:09 UTC
dumbkiwi
Member since:
2006-01-02

Please see here:

http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/1917

for the actual story. Thom, it would be helpful if you posted an update or correction.

Reply Score: 5

Not Again......
by nzjrs on Mon 10th Apr 2006 00:53 UTC
nzjrs
Member since:
2006-01-02

Well I hate to play devils advocate BUT, have you ever heard the saying

"Jack of all trades, master of none"

Just let Canonical do what they want, make a great Gnome distro an accept that this is the real world, people make tradeoffs due to non infinite time and have to sacrafice things, in this case they spend more money developing the Ubuntu than the Kubuntu

Reply Score: 5

Time to clarify
by quenturi on Mon 10th Apr 2006 01:47 UTC
quenturi
Member since:
2006-04-10

I'm a kubuntu user and from the beginning I've seen a problem in the way the 'Ubuntu project' (or Canonical) communicates about their other distros.
Everything looks Ubuntu-distro centered (e.g the changelog : http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/flight6).
This little episod sounds to me like an illustration only 'developer side'.

Reading from governa : I'm sorry to hear this but we all know Ubuntu is the main distro and Canonical will always focus on Gnome. shows exactly what I'm saying and what Canonical accomplished with their poor politic about their other distros. AFAIK the Ubuntu distro is now part of the 'Ubuntu project' just like kubuntu, xubuntu, edubuntu. I'm not aware of any hierarchy other than chronologic.

I jumped on kubuntu because it was at the time they started the project the only real kde centered distro with specific stuff and up to date kde packages which no other distros offered a year ago (and even now, very few do).

If, for the reason mentionned in that news or whatever reason, the kubuntu project is at risk and goes down, I'm gone. As simple as that. Mepis, why not ? All I need is a solid distro with a good and real kde support. I believe the kde desktop deserves that.

I wish they clarify things and make up their mind once for all. I could understand if they drop other distros focusing on Gnome. They just have to say it. Fast and clear. Then I'll just have to migrate. No big deal. Along with a few other users.

Reply Score: 2

MEPIS instead of kubuntu
by lazywally on Mon 10th Apr 2006 01:49 UTC
lazywally
Member since:
2005-07-06

once MEPIS goes ubuntu, we'll have 2 companies, 2 distributions, one gnome based, another KDE, both on top of ubuntu. perfect.

Reply Score: 1

I Think..
by CVDpr on Mon 10th Apr 2006 02:17 UTC
CVDpr
Member since:
2005-10-17

That Ubuntu/Gnome its their main distro, so its not their problem if some-one want a KDE version..

Reply Score: 1

Open source business model
by CuriosityKills on Mon 10th Apr 2006 02:21 UTC
CuriosityKills
Member since:
2005-07-10

This is sort of problem with open source. It is very difficult to define a business model around open source software except support. And ofcourse you won't get support business unless you make your distro popular.

So many linux distros mushroomed and then died. I don't see much future of open source in commercial world.

Reply Score: 1

Free business cannot go on like this
by Tarsier on Mon 10th Apr 2006 02:33 UTC
Tarsier
Member since:
2006-04-03

Fedora doesn't earn money. Fedora Foundation chopped off. It was surprising to note Fedora's bandwidth cost is USD 1.5 million a year! SuSe has moved to Open SuSe. Is also doesn't earn money.

Now the other KDE distro Kubuntu. What is there to write. Fate is obvious.

I'm was a Kubuntu user, switched to Tomahawk Desktop (http://www.tomahawkcomputers.com/) because I love KDE. I just smell this free business cannot go on like this.

Reply Score: 2

Yagotta B. Kidding Member since:
2006-04-15


Don't be kidding yourself into the false belief that a refurbished distro might ever be better than the original one. If you have chosen SUSE, stick to the original SUSE.


I, for my part, drive Mercedes-Benz and run SUSE on my desktop, well aware of all the copycats out there. If you will have a ride for your money, you'd better keep stickin' to original ware. Let impostors be what they are--creeps.

And, SUSE is a commercial distro full-way. No chance of sudden demise like the one of the late Kubuntu.

Yours,
YBK

Reply Score: 1

JELaVallee
Member since:
2006-01-11

For starters, some of you have turned this into a GNOME vs. KDE fragfest... which it is not. Shame on you... I use Gnome, KDE and just started playing with XFCE on an older system. All three running on Ubuntu cores or in the case of XFCE, Xubuntu. Each has it's strengths, each has some weaknesses, but they're all fine desktops in their own rights and are supported by dedicated and intimidatingly impressive developer communities.

JRiddell has done a fine job of clarifying the source issue that started all of this, namely amu's account getting clobbered during a server migration. That those at Kubuntu-de chose to go for an "All or Nothing" tack with this problem instead of just saying "Please fix this issue" is a shame and points to a greater problem of managing vast team communications/expectations and not to one of negligence or favoritism on Canonical's part.

Since there's such confusion (why I have no idea given that Canonical spells this out on their own site and on the Ubuntu main site), Canonical's core goal is the proliferation of UBUNTU as a viable, professional and end-user friendly Linux distro/OS. This include the GNOME desktop and Debian unstable strains as CORE components of the main distro trunk. It would make sense that these two technologies would be where Canonical would invest their resources most heavily. BUT, Mark Shuttleworth isn't a rule-from-on-high leader here (like two other OS business CEO's I can think of) having given the blessing and seed resources to those developing the Kubuntu, Xubuntu and (dear to Mark's heart) Edubuntu branch distros. And the thanks for letting in a bigger party is this kind of bickering. Sigh...

That Linus has shown a preference for KDE carries zip weight with this developer. Linus also supported VA Linux and Transmeta... aren't they just doing great? Double-sigh...

The word ubuntu means "humanity working together"... This requires respect, trust, understanding and sharing. None of which I could see in kubuntu-de's announcement/ultimatum or in many of the responses on this and other boards/forums.

So, in the immortal words of the holographic-God himself, "I think you should take a stress pill and think things over."

cheers,
Etienne

Reply Score: 5

Rehdon Member since:
2005-07-06

Couldn't agree more. Actually you saved me a lot of typing ;)

It's sad indeed that any article bringing GNOME and KDE in the same paragraph is automatically translated as "let's (re)start a GNOME vs KDE flamefest!!!" for some users ...

rehdon

Reply Score: 2

JELaVallee Member since:
2006-01-11

Well, rehdon, since it appears from the subsequent responses that no one else read (or bothered to think about) my response, I would have to say that you and I are in a small camp.

But, other than JRiddell, I've seen few from the main Ubuntu camp pay this issue any real attention. And that's a good thing... no need to justify a non-issue with attention it doesn't deserve.

GNOME vs KDE vs XFCE vs FVWM... It could go on forever and where would we be at the end of the day? Still under the heal of close-minded, profit-driven mega-corps scraping our way to some level of respect (thin as that may be with situ's like this one). None of the "children" who engage in such banter and strife seem to understand that the further we fight over such details the further we get from making a real difference. That's the whole point of the Ubuntu Project; move forward by building a better product.

I tell friends and coworkers this all the time: "I love knowing how my car works and being able to pull the engine appart and put it back together if I want, but at the end of the day I just want to be able to start the car and drive somewhere without having to worry if the spark plugs are gapped right or if the dash board is running at the right voltage." The same can be said for my feeling about operating systems.

cheers,
Etienne

Reply Score: 1

Yagotta B. Kidding Member since:
2006-04-15

Dear Jean-Etienne,

If you have just started _using_ Linux don't even try to put shame on a _developer_: shame on your kiddy face for such a preposterous attitude. Go on and play with your boxen, but do not - i said do not - try to tell others what they should think, feel, or do.

Listen and learn instead. You might turn a contributor some day... but only if your attitude betters--towards co-operation instead of bickering who should be ashamed of what.

BTW, it's not a question of JAFD, or JAFWM. And, Riddell has done a non-job of doing nothing, so why do you insist on a role of a white-washer for him and his negligencies? Purely hilarious. You are not a Riddell's servant, or are you?

I wish you all the best in your future attempts at Linux desktop.

Drop the servitude-attitude. It will do you good.

Think it over.

Yours,
YBK

Reply Score: 1

kubuntu seperate distro not needed
by berzerko on Mon 10th Apr 2006 03:11 UTC
berzerko
Member since:
2005-11-11

Pardon my ignorance, but why is it necessary for kubuntu to be a seperate distro? I was under the impression that you could install plain ubuntu, and then apt-get install kubuntu-desktop and BANG! now you have kubuntu. It just seems like double work. Then they put a "K" in front of Ubuntu and its a new distro?

As one person posted earlier there are some other differences behind kubuntu that are not that evident I suppose, but are they really major differences to necessitate a whole seperate distro?

Reply Score: 1

Lazarus Member since:
2005-08-10

"Pardon my ignorance, but why is it necessary for kubuntu to be a seperate distro? I was under the impression that you could install plain ubuntu, and then apt-get install kubuntu-desktop and BANG! now you have kubuntu. "

It's been stated before, that some people just can't force themselves to use GNOME (myself included) for a large variety of reasons.

"It just seems like double work."

And forcing end users who prefer KDE to go through the steps needed to turn a GNOME centric distribution into one we're more comfortable and happy with isn't?

I really cannot comprehend the logic that goes into reasoning like yours, nor do I really think I'd want to. Kubuntu is one of the better KDE centric desktop Linuxes out there, but I am hard pressed to think of anyone sane who would go through the trouble of de-GNOMEing Ubuntu to get a decent desktop...

Reply Score: 1

berzerko Member since:
2005-11-11

turning ubuntu into kubuntu really is just one extra step(apt-get install), and those who know they want kde should have no problem with that. Ubuntu doesnt force you to use gnome. you have the option at install time to not install the gui.

like I said before, pardon my ignorance, but what exactly are the "steps needed to turn a GNOME centric distribution into one we're more comfortable and happy with"

you make it seem like its a huge undertaking. i think its just a matter of one command. maybe I'm wrong but that's pretty simple to me. then again maybe it's just simpler to slap a K in front and call it a new distro.

Reply Score: 1

dark child Member since:
2005-12-09

you make it seem like its a huge undertaking. i think its just a matter of one command. maybe I'm wrong but that's pretty simple to me. then again maybe it's just simpler to slap a K in front and call it a new distro.
So what about those with dial up or no net connections that want to use an Ubuntu based distro without the hassle of installing GNOME and then removing it,

Reply Score: 1

berzerko Member since:
2005-11-11

order a free cd from ubuntu, then all you have to do is download KDE. if you have no net connection, then why would you want a deb based distro?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: is it really that big a deal?
by Nathan O. on Mon 10th Apr 2006 03:11 UTC
Nathan O.
Member since:
2005-08-11

Do they do it using Ubuntu?

Reply Score: 1

Perception
by elsewhere on Mon 10th Apr 2006 03:25 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

I think the reason that this is even a debate is because Mark himself made the commitment for Kubuntu to become a first class distro, and coming from the benevolent-dictator of the Ubuntu conglomerate it was a proclomation that carried weight. Prior to that, I think people had accepted that Kubuntu was simply an unofficial side-project.

I recently moved to Dapper from Suse to see how this KDE emphasis was coming along in Kubuntu, and am a little disappointed. Granted Suse probably has the best KDE implementation so my expectations were a little high, but it's clear from following the forums and updates that Gnome is the focus of the Dapper project.

Kubuntu's KDE integration isn't bad, and they certainly put more effort into it compared to, say, Fedora, which uses a plain-vanilla installation. The look'n'feel isn't too bad, the system-settings applet is a noble attempt at replacing Kcontrol but beyond that, but it still feels mostly like a superficial attempt. It's considerably slower than Suse, and they're now borrowing heavily from Suse for things like kpowersave, knetworkmanager and kerry, none of which are even confirmed for final release at this point. Though it is clear that KDE has had more work put into it than Kubuntu Hoary did when I used that.

Suse, on the other hand, still seems to be building on KDE. I had my doubts, but they still seem to be one of the best games in town. There's a perception that Novell has decided to concentrate solely on Gnome, which isn't exactly true. Novell's real intent seems to be to spread Mono everywhere, and to that point they've even split some of the mono projects, like beagle and zenworks, from Gnome dependencies so that they can integrate cleanly into a KDE environment with a proper front-end. Plus Suse still has some of the best laptop support going, and is still the only distro I've used that has WPA support built into the network configuration GUI. Considering Novell has even moved to slightly de-gnomify the gnome desktop in NLD 10, as well as continue supporting KDE, I don't think they're particular on which desktop you ultimately use as long as mono is in there somewhere.

That's the sort of commitment I'd like to see from someone aiming to make Kubuntu a first-class distro. No need to re-invent the wheel, but at least do something to make it feel more than tacked together with a custom theme. Otherwise just admit that KDE is optional and that Kubuntu is still mostly a community side project. I just sort of get the impresssion that Mark is hedging his bets, and was maybe opportunistically trying to build on the controversy when Novell first announced their move to Gnome without clarifying their position on KDE.

On the other side of the coin though, again judging from the forums, there seem to be more issues with Ubuntu Dapper than Kubuntu Dapper, and it's become apparent with Ubuntu (and Fedora before them) that simply tying your release schedule to Gnome's doesn't provide enough time for properly testing and integrating if you want a stable release.

So, hey, maybe that's something that ultimately works well in KDE's favour. You don't need to build a distro around each release, since the upgraded versions tend to drop right in to the current one without breaking anything.

Anyways, this is all really just about killing time until KDE 4.0, that's when things will get interesting for the distros...

Reply Score: 4

ubuntu is gnome
by graigsmith on Mon 10th Apr 2006 04:42 UTC
graigsmith
Member since:
2006-04-05

if you like KDE just use suse.

if you like gnome, use ubuntu, or fedora core.

Reply Score: 1

RE: ubuntu is gnome
by archiesteel on Mon 10th Apr 2006 04:59 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Uh, yeah, which is why there's a big Kubuntu section on the Ubuntu forums, and why Kubuntu is one of the fastest-growing distros out there, and why Mark Shuttleworth himself runs it...

Ubuntu is Linux, therefore it is both Gnome and KDE (and XFce, etc.)

Reply Score: 2

yawn
by cutterjohn on Mon 10th Apr 2006 05:43 UTC
cutterjohn
Member since:
2006-01-28

I'll feel sorry for the kubuntu people when they provide evidence that Canonical begged them to produce a KDE based version of Ubuntu. IMNHO the KDE version is redundant as both desktop environments are, for all practical purposes, clones any more.

I'd say that the xfce based version of Ubuntu has FAR better grounds for any whining...

Reply Score: 1

Can We Get a Article Note added Thom?
by HeLfReZ on Mon 10th Apr 2006 06:42 UTC
HeLfReZ
Member since:
2005-08-12

As if the link to kubuntu.de isnt enough, it still seems that alot of people are reading the title and intro, but not the actually details...just to get it str8 for the umpteenth time...Canonical IS NOT DROPPING KUBUNTU SUPPORT...this is one many one locacalization of kubuntu thats in a tizzy...this isnt kubuntu.org this is kubuntu.de...if I hear one more person hop on a random linux irc channels and go, "Canonical is dropping kubuntu" im goin to loose it..and furthermore, the gnome vs kde argument has gotten tired, everytime a company chooses one as the default over anohter, al the zealots come flocking through the gates with cryings of "W3 Ar3 L33tcak3s!!" get a grip...TBH the only reason most companies choose GNOME over KDE got commercial devel is the tie to QT. KDE is forever tied to QT, and from a corporate bottom line perspective...given that both environments are equally complete...its a safer bet to go with the one with no 3rd party ties ie.GNOME/GTK versus KDE/QT for the baseline, and its a double whamy when gtk can run on windows/osx/linux...whereas qt is still tied to KDE atm...I think Parallels Workstation is the first commercial app ive come across that is built with QT rather than gtk... (end rant)

Edited 2006-04-10 06:56

Reply Score: 1

elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

TBH the only reason most companies choose GNOME over KDE got commercial devel is the tie to QT. KDE is forever tied to QT, and from a corporate bottom line perspective...given that both environments are equally complete...its a safer bet to go with the one with no 3rd party ties ie.GNOME/GTK versus KDE/QT for the baseline, and its a double whamy when gtk can run on windows/osx/linux...whereas qt is still tied to KDE atm...I think Parallels Workstation is the first commercial app ive come across that is built with QT rather than gtk... (end rant)

I was with you for the first part of your post, but this is just spreading the misinformation that fuels the flamewars.

o Companies have not chosen Gnome over KDE anymore than they've chosen KDE over Gnome, beacause companies have not chosen linux yet

o Yes, KDE is tied to Qt but Qt is a proven, supported and well-documented development platform and that tie also gives it significant independence from the distros, whereas Gnome is dependent almost entirely upon funding from Red Hat, Novell and IBM, among others, and the conflicting corporate agendas that go with that. Not saying one method is better than the other, but don't paint Gnome as being the bastion of free choice.

o Qt runs just fine on Windows and OSX, KDE 4.0 will even have core apps ported to Windows, and in fact there are more mainstream commercial apps for Windows built on Qt than there are for linux right now (ie. Opera, Adobe Photo Album, Google Earth). The only difference is that Qt required a commercial license for non-linux applications, until Qt 4.0 which made GPL an option across all platforms.

The choice for end-users between Gnome and KDE will be reduced to what it really should be, and that is what works best for your requirements, and for corporate users that will include issues like deployment, manageability, compliance, lockdown etc. The licensing dogma et al. is just FUD that clouds the issues.

Gnome and KDE have very different design philosophies, hence the polarization of the community and userbase, and that difference makes it even more vital that both DE's exist because it does give users the flexibility to choose what works best, not what is dictated to them. Fortunately projects like Portland will protect choice for both ISVs and users, THAT is the important thing, because then everyone wins.

Reply Score: 3

proforma
Member since:
2005-08-27

This is why Open Source will not be able to beat Microsoft's Windows.

There is nothing to hold these projects together and once you have politics, it's over.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Don't waste your time Canonical
by Anon on Mon 10th Apr 2006 07:57 UTC
Anon
Member since:
2006-01-02

If these people want a Debian based distribtion with KDE as default desktop they can make it on their own.

(Note: this comes from a German. I couldn't care less about KDE, imo they should give up completely and stop dividing Linux on the desktop.)


You're joking right? GNOME is the one that SHOULD DIE. Hell, Gnome is only in existance because of KDE.

Gnome is .0005 of what KDE is, both with usability, functionality (yes, KDE does stuff, Gnome pretends to be usable by just having NOTHING), and speed.

Reply Score: 1

What's going on?
by da_Chicken on Mon 10th Apr 2006 09:16 UTC
da_Chicken
Member since:
2006-01-01

What's going on here? JRiddell, the one Kubuntu guy who's actually getting paid by Canonical, is trying to shush people by telling that this has all been just an unfortunate misunderstanding and that everything's already happily sorted out. But kubuntu.de still seems to be down...

One can only guess that there's a lot of this kind of friction behind the scenes in the Ubuntu community when some developers get paid for their work while others don't. And everyone knows that Mark Shuttleworth isn't exactly short of cash if he wishes to employ some more developers. As it is, Canonical has promised to make Kubuntu a "1st class distribution," so perhaps they should employ a couple of extra developers (possibly from Debian's KDE team, or maybe Warren Woodford from Mepis) to give JRiddell full-time help in improving Kubuntu.

Anyway, I don't care much about KDE or GNOME. What I'd REALLY want to see is that Canonical would employ a couple of full-time developers to work on XFCE/Xubuntu and ship installable live-cd versions of Xubuntu around the world free of charge. Just slap gnome-volume-manager (and maybe some other enhancements) on top of XFCE, give it a polished Xubuntu theme and you'll see that no-one is going to miss those bloated GNOME or KDE desktops. ;-)

Edited 2006-04-10 09:30

Reply Score: 0

KDE centric distros
by gary1979 on Mon 10th Apr 2006 11:01 UTC
gary1979
Member since:
2006-01-31

I've references to Kubuntu and Suse as great KDE centric distros. Are there any others that somebody would like to recommend? Thanks

Reply Score: 1

that 's linux
by happycamper on Mon 10th Apr 2006 15:31 UTC
happycamper
Member since:
2006-01-01

nothing new...few linux distros bite the dust and new ones pop up.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Don't waste your time Canonical
by superstoned on Mon 10th Apr 2006 19:01 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

indeed. the reason gnome exists is because KDE depended upon a non-gpl license in Qt. now Qt is GPL, KDE is LGPL or BSD - so problem gone. bye Gnome...

Reply Score: 2

Morgan Member since:
2005-06-29

"indeed. the reason gnome exists is because KDE depended upon a non-gpl license in Qt. now Qt is GPL, KDE is LGPL or BSD - so problem gone. bye Gnome..."

It's nowhere near that simple. I personally couldn't care less about GPL/BSD or whatever. Gnome suits my computing needs much better than KDE; it's simple, attractive, and very user-friendly. I'm not a developer, I'm a so-called "power user" and KDE is just way too cluttered for me. I see no need in three text editors, eight or so mp3 players and so on. One good application for each purpose is all I need. BUT, just because that's all I need doesn't mean I want KDE to go away. In fact, even though I'll personally never use it I hope it stays in active development for a long time to come. Why? Because it is the desktop of choice for so many great developers, including Linus Torvalds and Patrick Volkerding.

Gnome may have started as a fully free alternative to KDE back in the day, but it has long since grown beyond that and has a much different reason for being now.

So, please, before you post such inflammatory comments you may want to consider that your point of view is not the only one in the world. Keep in mind that the most popular and widespread Linux distro (Ubuntu) chooses Gnome as its default desktop. There has to be a reason for that, don't you think?

Reply Score: 1

Sounds like growing pains
by snaker on Tue 11th Apr 2006 01:29 UTC
snaker
Member since:
2005-11-16

Growing pains like a brother sister fight. Ubuntu is going to have problems just like every distro including, unix, windows etc. Who cares what the Windows Manager is. Just get a distro that works with your hardware and configure it any way you like. Some people with Windows use different window coverings. I use Suse, and I have used Debian. I like KDE but not gnome. I learned on Dos and not linux. But who cares about Window Managers anyway.

Reply Score: 1