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there was already a good installation manual provided with OpenBSD CDs

I thought that too. These "installation manual" is actually a few notes that are definately not enough for the new user. And the seasoned user doesn't need those notes. Nonesense.

I set up my first OpenBSD server with these few notes and it worked fine... BTW I was completely new to OpenBSD

Did you have previous experience with *nix? Did you have previous experience working with web servers? I am pretty sure you knew how to use BASH, let alone knowing what a CLI is...

While I appreciate OpenBSD as a secure platform, I am pretty sure that ease of use and intuitiveness aren't one of OpenBSD features.

Gstepper said "good tips such as recompiling the kernel"

What the author of this article said is true; you will "probably will not ever need to" recompile your kernel, but furthermore, it's strongly recommended that you don't. See http://openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html#Why

"Gstepper said "good tips such as recompiling the kernel"

What the author of this article said is true; you will "probably will not ever need to" recompile your kernel, but furthermore, it's strongly recommended that you don't. See http://openbsd.org/faq/faq5.html#Why"

Did I say/pretend/mean recompiling the kernel was something one must do ???

Still I think it's interesting hence the "good tips" words...

Another example, is I don't use Java but the ways I can install it on OpenBSD are interesting.

I was not disagreeing at all friend, just adding a point that I found important.

Java support:

That's the way you "used" to have to install Java on FreeBSD too. I remember cursing loudly about all the websites I had to visit, and downloads I had to make, in order to get the JDK installed (I program in Java, among other languages).

It's not that I have to support Java on the BSD's, but I like to test my code on them, along with Windows, Linux and OSX.

The official documentation at
http://www.openbsd.org/faq/index.html
contains detailed information on OpenBSD. It is available on line and as a PDF. Chapter 4, Installation Guide, steps you through the installation process.

"Apart from die-hard hackers, I don't know who would prefer it to any other Unix-like OS."

It didn't take me too long to figure out how to get it installed, and I'm certainly no genius, nor an I a die hard hacker, and I find it to be a very nice OS.

The system is well documented, small yet has damed near every feature I would want. Not only do the developers audit the thing constantly, but they've also included by default more exploit mitigation technologies than any other vendor.

The set of packages while smaller than those of Debian and FreeBSD contains a few thousand more applications than I would ever have a need for, and of course basic things like GNOME and KDE are available. Installing media players does not require me to jump though hoops to be able to play whatever it is I encounter on the net.

As all supported functionality is built right in (all supported drivers etc.), I don't need to screw around with kernel modules to get basic things like sound working; install, reboot and away I go. Because the OpenBSD kernel (like NetBSD's) is designed so as to reduce needless duplication of functionality, including all supported drivers does not leave you with a bloated monster of a kernel.

The only things that OpenBSD currently lacks that I personally would like are 3D drivers (not easy, as the devs don't include binary only code or sign NDAs, and seem to be the only OS devs that don't deal with that garbage), and a better threading system (which they already have nearly complete).

There are reasons to dislike OpenBSD for sure, but I've found *many* more positive things than negative.

Edited 2006-04-25 13:08

I really do not get peoples' problems with the openbsd installer; it's the most to-the-point and no-nonsense installer I've encountered - and I've installed about every operating system that runs on x86 for the last 20 years.

What more do you need to install an operating system?

If you can't figure out these basic questions the installer asks you, you still have...
-the cd's with the install sets and a minimal explanation of the installation routine for every architecture;
-the leaflet which came with your cd's, which actually walks you thru the entire install while giving hints on sane defaults;
-the excellent FAQs and manual pages online at the website;
-the entire cvs tree available thru the website, which includes the build-infrastructure that was used to make your installation cd's.

Do you really prefer handholding by some old obscure how-to, written by an anonymous 12year old, without any quality control or proofreading? Do you really need a forum to go and ask help on this? You're installing an operating system - this shouldn't take an afternoon; the installer makes it possible to do this interactively in about 10 minutes. If you have that much problems installing an operating system, please don't dabble in system administration.

And yes, the community on their mailinglists tend to get in a grumpy mood, when for the N-th time someone asks a question that's already perfectly documented.

Why do they have to be grumpy about it? Some people just don't know, or are frazzled and managed to miss that part of the documentation.

I've never installed OpenBSD because I've heard their community is a bunch of snobs about questions like these. I tend to ask a lot of questions like these even after searching through documentation. It isn't always clear to me how to use the given system to accomplish what I'm trying to do, so sometimes I don't look in the right places. And very often, my brain gets fried after spending 14 hours on my computer, trying to wrestle with a laundry list of things throughout the day, and the last thing I'm going to put up with is snottiness from some arrogant elitist.

Sure, as experts, they have a license to be arrogant, but that doesn't gain them mindshare. Too bad, because OpenBSD would be the perfect example of the "many eyes" theory of security if they had more eyes.

"and the last thing I'm going to put up with is snottiness from some arrogant elitist."

"Sure, as experts, they have a license to be arrogant, but that doesn't gain them mindshare. Too bad, because OpenBSD would be the perfect example of the "many eyes" theory of security if they had more eyes."

***************************************************

Hear, hear!

I never cared about Linux (specifically Debian) for the same reasons as above, until i read an article by Clinton De Young, explaining how to do it. I quit Windows and never looked back, that's all I needed.

As for the pseudo openbsd geeks, i ain't got time for them, they can keep it. Somebody may write an installation guide in English for it, and then many users will install it. This already has hapenned with FreeBSD, and it was fun to install it following the instructions from a 19 yr-old freshman posted in the internet, but in the end, i dumped it because Debian fits my needs better.

My 2 cents,

Edited 2006-04-25 16:07

Why do they have to be grumpy about it? Some people just don't know, or are frazzled and managed to miss that part of the documentation.

Why should the devs answer lame newbie setup questions, which mostly come from users who switch operating systems more often than they switch socks? The OpenBSD community is small. They don't have time for that crap. They aren't focused on making the uber Microsoft desktop killer/take over the world OS. Therefore they are not interested in helping every newbie switch to OpenBSD.

This isn't about snobbery, it's just that this community is not an evangelical one. It's an opinionated OS. Love it or leave it.

First off, it's dangerous to assume that questions you know the answer to are newbie questions. I know what I'm doing well over half the time, but I run in to little gotcha-ish things every day. I'm sure you do too. Not just in computers, but in driving, cooking, sleeping in pajamas that bunch up funny...

Second, I'm not saying they need to be inviting. They don't. But if they're not going to be inviting, they're not going to come off very well, resulting in lower mindshare, fewer eyes, fewer hands, and an overall lesser public opinion.

How many people in the community at large consider OpenBSD to be a shining example of how to run a community? Surprisingly few, considering it's the most secure free unix out there.

But if they're not going to be inviting, they're not going to come off very well, resulting in lower mindshare, fewer eyes, fewer hands, and an overall lesser public opinion.

Those that are unwilling to read the simple, concise documentation are unlikely to be willing to read the code or contribute in any meaningful fashion.

Like I said before, I read documentation, search the web, read man pages, and try stuff for myself before ever asking a question, and some people *still* give me lip for not RTFM when I was just too frazzled or trying the wrong thing to find the answer for myself. If I ask such a question, and people give me guff, are they helping themselves?

I'm still asking dumb questions about a lot of things while at the same time helping newcomers in many forums. Some of those newcomers go on to help others. The argument that people need to stop asking questions is detestable, in my opinion. Within their rights, but laughably arrogant.

I'm not saying they need to be inviting. They don't. But if they're not going to be inviting, they're not going to come off very well, resulting in lower mindshare, fewer eyes, fewer hands, and an overall lesser public opinion.

I don't think that you entirely understood my post. The OpenBSD community doesn't crave "mindshare". The community doesn't need 2 million users to be successful. In fact, the project is already a smashing success. OpenSSH (or a varient of) is used on nearly every Unix system in existance. The net is a safer place thanks to the project.

This whole idea that having more users using a desktop OS will lend "more eyes to the code" is nonsense. It's the highly technical users who need no hand holding who are able to detect, debug, and fix holes.

The OpenBSD crew doesn't care if there are 200, 20000 or 2000000 users using the OS. The code is out there. The documentation is out there. There is no warrentee. There is no guarentee of satisfaction. There are no refunds. A certain type of user will love it, others will hate it. And that's ok.

I'm not talking about a desktop OS, I'm talking about OpenBSD. I'm a highly-technical-person-in-training, but I wont contribute to a group of arrogant people's project. If they were more popular, they wouldn't have to go begging for support or OpenSSH development; since their popularity is lower, so is their relevance, ubiquity of one of their products notwithstanding.

My point is, it's hard to like mean people, and it's hard to keep people in mind if you don't like them.

If they were more popular, they wouldn't have to go begging for support or OpenSSH development

They aren't begging for money due to being "unpopular". The cause of the financial woes is due to their "business model" (CD sales) being outdated due to the propogation of high speed internet connections.

It is now quick and easy to simply download the OS a whip up an ISO. This was not true in the past. Also, their 'corporate' funding (DARPA) was cut off whcih contributed to the problem as well.

"A certain type of user will love it, others will hate it."

Any business that takes this attitude will fail. This is precisely why OBSD is still niche. They have a better product than Linux, yet is still lacking in mindshare. I blame the hostile OBSD community for this.

This is precisely why OBSD is still niche. They have a better product than Linux, yet is still lacking in mindshare.

This isn't a contest. The OpenBSD userbase isn't in this for world domination. OpenBSD users just want a solid, secure BSD based OS. They aren't trying to replace Linux.

Why does everyone assume this is the case?

the reasons why Linux is more popular than the BSD's have nothing to do with the communities that develop them and are buring in Unix history.

You need to read less comics and read more "real" books.

And beyond that they are doing you a favor...solving your own problems is a skill that needs honed like anything else.

The developers write good documentation and they expect (rightfully so) others to read it and help themselves. I am fairly new to OpenBSD myself and aftert spending some time reading the FAQ the installation went smoothly. I was even able to set up an OpenBSD box as a firewall that now filters all net traffic to my network. All this is documented very well in the FAQ and the man pages.

I personally would rather the devs spend their time making the OS better rather than answereing questions that have been answered countless times in the mailing lists archives, FAQ and man pages. Perhaps this is why such tools as OpenSSH are of such high quality.

I guess, to distill my point, a negative attitude is never becoming of a successful lifestyle. Bad karma.

Do you really prefer handholding by some old obscure how-to, written by an anonymous 12year old, without any quality control or proofreading? Do you really need a forum to go and ask help on this? You're installing an operating system - this shouldn't take an afternoon; the installer makes it possible to do this interactively in about 10 minutes. If you have that much problems installing an operating system, please don't dabble in system administration.

I wouldn't have expected more from an OpenBSD pedant. For those who want more, please have a look at the OpenBSD channel on Usenet, or have a look at the mailing lists!

OpenBSD: Should be called CloseMindedBSD!

@Joe User

IMO the worst part of installing OpenBSD is the fdisk and disklabel steps.

But OpenBSD users have access to very good docs. Two thumbs up!

What's that job that specifically get better served by OpenBSd ? Nothing at all ?

OpenBSD's strength is in routing, packet filtering, IDS stuff, etc. CARP + pfsync is pretty much unbeatable.

It is servicable as a minimalist desktop system, but generally most users would only do that in order to have a dedicated OBSD dev system.

Of course its common knowledge that you cannot appriciate any OS that's not GNU .... so debating is likely pointless.

Haha

You are a funny troll. I'm bored so I'll reply anyways.

How come when I go to http://www.openbsd.org/ its not mentionned : Best solution for packet filtering and why ...

I mentioned it's strength. It's still a general OS. I never said that it was "the best". "The best " of anything is very subjective.

"It is servicable as a minimalist desktop system, but generally most users would only do that in order to have a dedicated OBSD dev system. "

Why it dont ship on any desktop sold in stores across the globe ?

I called it is a "minimalist desktop system that (for the most part) only OBSD developers would want to use. It's not consumer grade. Nor is it meant to be.

Well that explain a lot if you listen to what moron say ... GNU btw = Free Unix system.

I was pointing out your obvious bias towards Linux ...

Debating GNU , yes , debating why nobody pick and think of OpenBSD and as no company worth 1 million or one billion supporting it ... Nah that would not be interesting to you .

Who cares who supports it? Microsoft is worth 280 billion, but I bet your don't like windows much, do you?

This thread really is pointless, so why don't you go back to playing with Debian (or whatever) and I'll go back to playing with OpenBSD.

Deal?

No , but that you dont get it is normal.

Get what?

Here is my counter offer : when you will have built a 25 million USD company that support directly OpenBSD , you will be allowed to talk about it and say you have done your job and be able to tell me to shut up.

Why would I want to do that?

"You know whats simple and effective ? No you obviously dont , let me tell you clearly : I go to best buy pick up a computer pay for it go home connect it to the power socket and BOOM , its ready to use , that is easy. "

hook it up. google for free pr0n. click on free pr0n. get infected with malicious code and become part of botnet. it's ready to use!! that is easy.!! :-)

"hook it up. google for free pr0n. click on free pr0n. get infected with malicious code and become part of botnet. it's ready to use!! that is easy.!! :-)"

Thats what OpenBSD do , no wonder nobody use it as desktop ... Its worst then windows.

"Funny, I've always found it to be exactly the opposite. "

Thats why your a Die-Hard hackers ...

Although i don't have the need to run OpenBSD i have installed it once just out of curiosity.The install is secure and easy.The procedure is nicely explained on the manual inside the CD case.Or look at it online a few times and go ahead,there's really nothing to it.I installed it and the other day for fun i made a transparant proxy.Only drawback might be the lack of packages,perhaps most of them are covered by Linux binairies.

Edited 2006-04-25 18:59

Moulinneuf is one of typical GPL/GNU/Linux zealot, but I guess he only knows apt-get, synaptic, etc, and probabaly he knows more complex installation with ./configure && make && make install. He probably heard about cvs and svn, but highly unlikely know what are they stand for. But on top of those, he is always talking big about FOSS.

there is no cfdisk in openbsd that's a linux utility afaik

cfdisk is useless since it's, afaik, Linux only: partitioning is done differently between BSD's and Linux and device names are different too. What is wrong with disklabel and fdisk?

I admit, my first go with bsd fdisk I was scared. Once I understood the difference between a slice and a partition it was easier. A cfdisk port to bsd would be interesting though...

I installed OpenBSD 3.9 yesterday afternoon (the CD had barely arrived before I was shoving it in a test machine!). During the install, it correctly found and set up all of my hardware, including my network card. It asked me to enter my IP (I use static routing at home), name server, gateway, etc..., and when I did my first reboot after install, networking was up and running fine. I can't vouch for DHCP setup though.

I've got a USB Linksys device, and I think it's supported, driverwise. It will be using DHCP, however.
I guess the drivers are all compiled into the kernel? Network configuration was where I stopped with 3.8. 3.9 promises to be fun.

I use a linksys usb nic, it's found as an axe device (axe0 specifically). Works great! I use it with my zaurus just about every day.

I agree. However, I also think that the installer can be a pain if one doesn't read the installer guide. Yes, the installer is slightly complicated, but if you're in a hurry, then don't try OpenBSD.

"I'm not one."

I guess , you need to be reminded that you use OpenBSD and find it easy to use ...

"Routing, firewalling and servers in my and many others case. "

Its not the best solution in those case.

"Yeah, answering questions ... figure those answers out. "

Get out of your bubble go to a mall and ask the next 100 person you meet if they know what sshd ask them if they ever heard of OpenBSd too will your at it.

"You seem to be confusing username with real name. "

No confusion on my part.

"My real name is where you'd expect it to be, in the user details. "

Because its obvious that Lars Hansson is already in use ...

"I know exactly what's simple and effective. "

No ...

"I didnt know you could buy pre-configured and pre-installed gigabit routers, firewalls and servers at Best Buy, btw. "

You can buy terrabyte solution this days ;-)

"Really? I'd think adults had other things to do with their time"

No , because an adult know that not everyone is born with absolute knowledge on everything ...

"like be with their family or work or do other interesting things."

Yes your doing those when your replying rtfm on a mailing list ...

"Sorry, I dont have time, patience or interest to answer the same question that has already been answered a million times before. "

Then dont answer them at all , if your not qualified or wanting to do the job why do you discuss it at all ?

"If the answer "search the mailing list archives" dont work for you I really dont care. "

Thats the problem right there , you dont care about helping , you dont care about OpenBSD , you dont care about anything , your Anti Social , dont worry your the norm in Open BSD , thats why OPEN BSD is made by you and your ilk to be irrelevant.

"It's not for you to say how I spend my time and what I should do. "

In that regard , your wrong , your attitude , lack of caring and lack of realism is why OpenBSD is made irrelevant.

Lets do the opposite of what you do.

1) contribute OpenBSd code
2) Contribute money monthly to the tune of 10$ and more and encourage other to do the same
3) Help anyone who ask question , so that they too become OpenBSD user and gurus.
4) Discourage people who are Anti social from replying to people who are new to the platform
5) Once a Month gather with other like me to show the world around me what we are doing so that people know we exist
6) Give bought OpenBSD around so that people can see what it is and tell them where to buy and get the new version.

But I forgot you dont care about doing that.

"It's nice to see that you acknowledge OpenBSD to be the superior product."

Everything is better then Windows , The phrase is meant to say that in today's world making the best product alone is not enough anymore , not surprising you dont get it at all , you have to adapt to the new reality.