Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 1st Jun 2006 15:24 UTC, submitted by Tom Dickens
Apple "It's not that I despise Apple or the wonderful products it showcases year after year, but the fact that almost every first generation Apple product has serious quality assurance issues bugs me beyond belief. Let's take a look at two of Apple's most successful products, the company's portable music player and its notebook series."
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Mine's fine
by Tyr. on Thu 1st Jun 2006 15:38 UTC
Tyr.
Member since:
2005-07-06

Before we get on to the Apple bashing let me just mention that I have a first generation Mac mini (also a mighty mouse) that has been trouble free and pretty great overall.

Some people will have problems no matter how good the product and this chance is always greater when buying a first generation product. All companies have horror stories like this, (un?)fortunately Apple users are exceptionally vocal and tech-savvy enough to spread the word on the internet.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Mine's fine
by Kroc on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:21 UTC in reply to "Mine's fine"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

It happens. I have a day 1 Mac Mini and it has worked flawlessly as a server since the day they came out. It's never been switched off, only rebooted for updates.

On the other hand, I also got a day 1 Macbook Pro. It was fine besides the whine, the heat and the mic port not working at all. I sent it off, and a new one dispatched. The new one was probably a repackaged return from a service centre because the screen was bowed, the CD drive buckled, a scre twisted out on the bottom at a bad angle and a dead pixel.

Over the phone they were not prepared to replace it without picking up the first and waiting a week for another to be delivered. They said I couldn't take it back to the store because the system only accepts laptops from their original location.

So I went to the Apple store in London, and they replaced it immediately, no questions asked. I also bought a white Macbook and that's running fine.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Mine's fine
by iampivot on Sat 3rd Jun 2006 13:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Mine's fine"
iampivot Member since:
2005-08-09

what apple store was that? The one with the service centre in New Oxford Street?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Mine's fine
by Kroc on Sat 3rd Jun 2006 18:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Mine's fine"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Regent Street in Central London, just off of Oxford Circus

Reply Score: 1

Secrecy vs. Real World testing
by elsewhere on Thu 1st Jun 2006 15:45 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

Whether it's truly earned or not, there's no denying Apple has a reputation for kludgy first-gen products. Yes, one can argue that any "new" product is susceptible to unanticipated problems, but Apple seems particularly prone to it based on the publicity surrounding it.

I can't help thinking that Apple's intense focus on secrecy to build product hype may work against them here. By trying to keep innovative products under wraps until the last possible minute, it's virtually impossible to test them in anything but controlled conditions and likely with a relatively limited number of testers (better to avoid the potential for leaks).

Might just be something customers have to live with, or it might be something Apple needs to re-think. I suspect things will remain as they are because, are the article pointed out, their customers are inexplicably among the most ferociously loyal and likely most forgiving out there. To Apple's credit, it takes serious brand loyalty to be able to successfully operate that way. Though the opposite side of that coin is that a tarnished brand is almost worse than no recognition at all, because reputations are hard to shake.

Just my speculative 2c.

Reply Score: 5

In a nutshell
by rockwell on Thu 1st Jun 2006 15:56 UTC
rockwell
Member since:
2005-09-13

//Let's take a look at two of Apple's most successful products ...//

Kinda says it all, eh? They're successful, *despite* the fact the "first gen" releases "sucked."

I don't buy Apple products (price/performance doesn't measure up for me) ... but I gotta hand it to them. At least they get the frickin' things out the door, and don't delay launches forever *cough* Vista *cough*.

Reply Score: 5

RE: In a nutshell
by BluenoseJake on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:25 UTC in reply to "In a nutshell"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Except it took them near 10 years to get a replacement for the old MacOS, how quickly people forget

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: In a nutshell
by ApproachingZero on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:30 UTC in reply to "RE: In a nutshell"
ApproachingZero Member since:
2005-11-10

Except it took them near 10 years to get a replacement for the old MacOS, how quickly people forget

Yes, the company drifted like a ship without a captain or a compass in the years Jobs was absent. It's not so much that we've forgotten those years as that we have actively blocked them out of our concious memories. It's a protective mechanism built into the brain to protect us from traumatic events.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: In a nutshell
by JustAnotherMacUser on Thu 1st Jun 2006 19:41 UTC in reply to "RE: In a nutshell"
JustAnotherMacUser Member since:
2006-01-08

Except it took them near 10 years to get a replacement for the old MacOS, how quickly people forget

But they saw the need to change and Microsoft hasn't.

It was a hell of gamble at the time and it paid off, now Linux and Vista is copying it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: In a nutshell
by BluenoseJake on Mon 5th Jun 2006 06:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In a nutshell"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Microsoft has seen the need to change, that's why the focus in Vista on security

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: In a nutshell
by chlordane on Fri 2nd Jun 2006 01:34 UTC in reply to "RE: In a nutshell"
chlordane Member since:
2006-05-11

and yet people keep bashing OS X like its crap, when the REAL problem in this software industry is MICROSOFT....

Unix is the superior OS, Unix runs the internet, and that my friends will not change.....

What has Microsoft brought to the table other than SERIOUS flaws...?
They DO NOT inovate, they copy...since day one...current example: Vista has a very Mac OS X look, dont you think.....?

http://www.softpedia.com/screenshots//Universal-Vista-Inspirat-Bric...

Ten years, yeah, at least they went to a solid SLIM core...

BSD is just better....

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: In a nutshell
by Simba on Fri 2nd Jun 2006 02:01 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In a nutshell"
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

Um... Contrary to popular belief (and early Apple propeganda), OS X is NOT Unix. The kernel is a microkernel based on Mach. Mac has a Unix subsystem based on BSD.

> Unix is the superior OS, Unix runs the internet, and that my friends
> will not change.....

Except that greater than 50% of e-commerce sites that are running on Microsoft platforms... When it comes to e-commerce, Microsoft has more marketshare than Unix does.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: In a nutshell
by chlordane on Sat 10th Jun 2006 00:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: In a nutshell"
chlordane Member since:
2006-05-11

Not Unix, huh...? Is a MicroKernel not a Kernel?

I guess they are guilty of false advertisment..

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/unix/

Can I run X (the windowing system) on Mac OS X?
-YES

Can I run Gnome, KDE, on Mac OS X?
-YES

What about the Darwin Project, is that NOT Unix...?

Or the other tasks and jobs that UNIX can do, now done with Mac OS X.....?
-YES

and about this E-commerce you speak of...
this is true on that end, but when it comes to Mission Critical Task.....like, ummmmm, space travel, securing banks, and government networks....you just dont use Windows for that....(Ebay is currently using Sun Solaris, is that E-commerce?)

Besides, Unix is the REASON we are able to even have this discussion ONLINE in the first place.....so who gives a flip about microsoft....

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: In a nutshell
by BluenoseJake on Mon 5th Jun 2006 06:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In a nutshell"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I'm not bashing OS X, I like OS X alot, this was in response to a post about the delays in Vista, which I felt the inane need to point out the Hell that Apple went through trying to get a replacement for classic MacOS. I never commented on the quality of MacOS X

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: In a nutshell
by atsureki on Fri 2nd Jun 2006 05:46 UTC in reply to "RE: In a nutshell"
atsureki Member since:
2006-03-12

I feel like I should disagree with you, but I can't tell that you said anything. Why shouldn't people forget about OS9? We're talking about what's new.

If you want to talk track records, Apple's gonna be hard to beat. If you want to say Microsoft is better, don't bring up track records.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: In a nutshell
by BluenoseJake on Mon 5th Jun 2006 06:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In a nutshell"
BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

I'm not sure what you are getting at, I was responding to a particular posting by somebody else, I just wanted to point out that other companies and organizations (Debian, with 3.1) have suffered delays as long or longer than Vista, the reason that you can't tell that I said anything, is called "a reality distortion field"

Reply Score: 1

RE: In a nutshell
by eggs on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:32 UTC in reply to "In a nutshell"
eggs Member since:
2006-01-23

They are so secretive with up coming products how do you know there aren't delays? Everything they make could be delayed a year and a half and you would know because Apple doesn't tell anyone until the day before its released.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: In a nutshell
by rockwell on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:37 UTC in reply to "RE: In a nutshell"
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//Everything they make could be delayed a year and a half and you would know because Apple doesn't tell anyone until the day before its released.//

so ... then ... it's really not an issue, is it? How the hell can anyone complain about Apple delaying product releases, if nobody knows the release schedule?

Or, would it be better the MS way, esp. with Vista.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: In a nutshell
by eggs on Wed 7th Jun 2006 18:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: In a nutshell"
eggs Member since:
2006-01-23

I'm guessing ISV's like Adobe would like a heads up when apple changes everything on them...

Reply Score: 1

mosmedia
Member since:
2006-03-22

Hey Yall lets get on the train to bash Apple yet again. Lets read yet another article that informs of us of what, that we may potentially down the road buy something from Apple that may or may not have issues. Personally I feel the author really missed another opportunity to also assure us that Macs can one day be infected by a virus. Yep I was so ignorant to buy my Macbook and as a real kicker do not run antivirus software. While we are at it he also forgot to rehash how linux is so much faster than OS-X.

Reply Score: 3

ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

Companies by there nature have one single motivation: to make more money (keep shareholers happy and profits up).

Period.

While companies have different philosophies and some varying methods, make no mistake - profit is the single goal.

Therefore, every company by it's very nature SHOULD be bashed once in a while Be it Microsoft, IBM, HP, or any other company. They will screw someone to make a buck. They will cut corners. They will lie. That's a company.

So yeah, Apple can get bashed once in a while. Did the person mention any of that? No?

Then go back under your bridge.

Reply Score: 1

mosmedia Member since:
2006-03-22

What was your point? All companies should be bashed to keep them honest? This is an absurd comment that lacks any sense of reality. Yes companies are out to make money but if thier sole purpose was to screw people they would go under.

Reply Score: 2

ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

My point is every company should be bashed when they deserve it. Publicly, if needed, to keep them honest. Sometimes a company or it's fanboys need to be knocked down a few pegs. I do believe that companies that can get away with it will screw customers as much as they can.

I'm not talking about mom/pop shops, but corporations are as evil and greedy as those running them.

So yes. Apple should be bashed if they have a tendency to release a crappy first gen of products. I'm not saying they do or do not, mind you. I do the same thing to MS with bugs, or any other vendor.

Reply Score: 2

Biased Focus
by mmastache on Thu 1st Jun 2006 15:59 UTC
mmastache
Member since:
2005-07-06

Many first gen releases have flaws no matter which company they come from. Early adopters usually pay the price for such things. Anyone remember the Pentium math bug? Apple just happens to garner more attention and therefore attracts biased focus. This does not mean I agree with how they handle it. I only wish to state that Apple is not the only guilty party.

Reply Score: 3

Most first-gen products have bugs
by wocowboy on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:06 UTC
wocowboy
Member since:
2006-06-01

Hazards of being an early adopter, you help a manufacturer work out bugs, flaws, etc that may be things that their so-called "real world testing" didn't reveal.

Apple can be faulted for the nano's finish but they can't be held totally to blame for people carrying the thing in pockets with keys, change, nails, bolts, etc, or dropping it into a bag with other sharp scratch-inducing items. Trust me, I have done this! Not to mention that there is a billion dollar business in iPod cases of all sorts that do a fine job of protecting your investment, and these cases are available in all price ranges. Apple even sortof encourages you to purchase a third provider case by not including anything more than a felt sleeve with the iPod in the box.

As far as the heat issue goes, there have been comments on both sides of the issue. I am sure somewhere, some engineer, motherboard designer, manufacturer, etc decreed that that was the correct amount of grease to apply and Apple went with that recommendation, which may or not be the correct amount in the eyes of posters to this or other websites or other manufacturers. But if you read the instructions that come with the "laptop", they don't even call the machine a "laptop", and state that it might not be a good thing to use it on your lap. Better to use it on a table or other surface that provides better ventilation. Works for me, I can do that. I know from experience that laptops get warm, and get even warmer or downright hot when placed on a bedspread or other surface that blocks the vents. A little common sense goes a LONG way in all these matters.

Reply Score: 4

I dunno...
by timo on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:06 UTC
timo
Member since:
2006-01-16

Quality testing is expensive. So it's not too dumb a strategy to (mis)use the customer as a quality tester. If you can keep the balance between that and not alienating your customers, you get a lot of "test subjects" for free. And I think it's very hard to get an Apple customer to the point where they switch (back) to Windows.

Everyone does that, in almost every industry ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: I dunno...
by alcibiades on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:24 UTC in reply to "I dunno..."
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

"Quality testing is expensive. So it's not too dumb a strategy to (mis)use the customer as a quality tester."

Recalls and rework are about the most expensive things you can do. Quality is not just free, its phenonenally profitable. Having your customers inspect in quality is about the only thing more stupid than having your quality department inspect it in.

I don't know why Apple seems to have so many problems with heat and noise, but suspect its that product design is being done in Marketing. And Marketing at Apple means, lifestyle marketing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I dunno...
by Tyr. on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:32 UTC in reply to "RE: I dunno..."
Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

Recalls and rework are about the most expensive things you can do. Quality is not just free, its phenonenally profitable

"If a new car built by my company leaves Chicago traveling west at 60 miles per hour, and the rear differential locks up, and the car crashes and burns with everyone trapped inside, does my company initiate a recall?
You take the population of vehicles in the field (A) and multiply it by the probable rate of failure (B), then multiply the result by the average cost of an out-of-court settlement (C).

A times B times C equals X. This is what it will cost if we don't initiate a recall.

If X is greater than the cost of a recall, we recall the cars and no one gets hurt.

If X is less than the cost of a recall, then we don't recall" - Fight Club, Chuck Palahniuk.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: I dunno...
by alcibiades on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: I dunno..."
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

Yes, there are some companies that simply do not get quality. The true cost of your recall is NOT the number times rate of failure times settlement costs.

But, probably, if that is how your company figures it, there is no point in trying to explain to them where manufacturing profit margins come from and go to. You can't even tell them to go visit Toyota. They probably would have no idea what they were looking at.

At a telco I consulted for once, the Head of Quality ordered cable pressurization switched off to save money. It did, for a while. And when costs rose, it was kind of hard to tie them back down to anything specific...

This is one of those things, you either get it or you don't.

Reply Score: 1

Never mind
by Matt24 on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:12 UTC
Matt24
Member since:
2005-07-23

I comfort myself with the thought that every non-Apple 'PC' sucks because it does not come with OSX!

Reply Score: 1

Drama queen
by Tyr. on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:22 UTC
Tyr.
Member since:
2005-07-06

I get really tired of these drama queens anyway. I mean who describes a scratched iPod nano as "the traumatic screen scratching issue" ? Really.

I also find it a bit suspect that this guy doesn't actually mentions if he owns one of the products he's complaining about, or if this is yet another rehashing of vague notions acquired by someones secondhand knowledge gotten off the web.

Reply Score: 5

Mac Mini Core Duo
by ApproachingZero on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:27 UTC
ApproachingZero
Member since:
2005-11-10

Things have gone surprisingly smoothly for the first-gen Mac mini Core Duo. I love mine. Seems to have escaped the typical problems associated with first-gen Apple products. I haven't heard any specific complaints about it other than "the default 512MB RAM isn't enough", which is true. Max it out to 2GB and you've got a seriously well engineered workstation for iLife and light duty in the Pro apps.

Since most of the complaints I've heard about the new Apple hardware can be paraphrased as, "it burns my legs!", maybe it makes sense that no one is complaining about the Mac mini too much. I haven't felt the urge to put mine in my lap yet.

(Note: Apple, please stop releasing laptops that burn people's legs. The screams on the internet are getting awfully loud.)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Mac Mini Core Duo
by Tyr. on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:41 UTC in reply to "Mac Mini Core Duo"
Tyr. Member since:
2005-07-06

(Note: Apple, please stop releasing laptops that burn people's legs. The screams on the internet are getting awfully loud.)

Legs ? They're the lucky ones :-) (note: link isn't about a mac laptop either) :
"Man burns penis with laptop" ( http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/11/22/man_burns_penis_with_laptop... )

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Mac Mini Core Duo
by ApproachingZero on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Mac Mini Core Duo"
ApproachingZero Member since:
2005-11-10

How could you not notice your penis being slow-roasted for an hour? It's kind of sensitive, you know?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Mac Mini Core Duo
by vikramsharma on Thu 1st Jun 2006 20:34 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Mac Mini Core Duo"
vikramsharma Member since:
2005-07-06

Perhaps one would enjoy the first few minutes, reminds of somthing else, not that I have tried slow roasting my penis.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Mac Mini Core Duo
by rayiner on Thu 1st Jun 2006 20:10 UTC in reply to "Mac Mini Core Duo"
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

The first-gen iMac Core Duo seems to be trouble-free too. And aside of some rumors about paint-flaking, I haven't heard much about the Macbook (non-Pro) either.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Mac Mini Core Duo
by werpu on Fri 2nd Jun 2006 08:05 UTC in reply to "Mac Mini Core Duo"
werpu Member since:
2006-01-18

The problem with the first gen Mac mini core Duo is its graphics card, which is the slowest of its generation of graphics cards. In my case it was a sure sale which Apple lost because of that. I was in need for a PC replacement, but the plain Centrino 2 design simply did not do it for my use cases (I also want to do some occasional gaming of current gen gameS), and the iMac simply is not an option for me, too expensive and I do not need yet another monitor.

Reply Score: 1

What annoys me...
by Simba on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:31 UTC
Simba
Member since:
2005-10-08

Is not so much that Apple's first generation products have bugs. That's to be expected... But what really annoys me, is Apple's track record of denying the problems even exist. Of saying a notebook computer that runs so hot you can't use it on your lap is "normal and within specs". And of doing nothing to make things right for their customers who are already paying way above average for what a computer should cost, and therefore, should expect above average customer service, and an above average product. and their legal manuevering where they treat their customers like they are idiots. Do you know what I was told when I complained about the heat on my MacBook Pro and wass told it was normal? I said "A laptop you can't use on your lap is not normal" You know what he told me? "We aren't marketing them as laptops. We are marketing them as notebooks."

That statement, and the way Apple treats their customers who shell out $2,500 on systems, probably ensured Apple has lost me a customer forever.

As a side note, they have even started censoring their discussion forums when customers are complaining about problems on them. I have seen a few threads mysteriously just disappear that were complaining about heat problems and such with the MacBook Pros.

That's what annoys me to no end, and what is totally unacceptable. The fact that Apple pretends glaring and obvious problems don't exist, or are normal and within spec, and then refuses to make things right with their customers. Apple's customers are paying a premium price. They have a right to expect better customer service then they are getting.

Edited 2006-06-01 16:35

Reply Score: 5

v RE: What annoys me...
by tryphcycle on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:51 UTC in reply to "What annoys me..."
RE[2]: What annoys me...
by Simba on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:12 UTC in reply to "RE: What annoys me..."
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

> Thay are NO hotter then a similar toshiba or dell with the
> same dimentions and processor!

Yes. they are.

> and how often do you put it on your lap? and for how long?

Oh lets see... 2 to 3 hours at a time during airport layovers? All the time when I am sitting on the couch?

> yea.... apple service sucks!

It does.

> stop the frigg'n whineing

Yeah.... You made your point. You are one of the Apple defenders who worships the one true god Steve Jobs and licks the ground he walks on. Cause we all know the holy institution of Apple is perfect in every way.

Give me a break. Apple has had problems like this all the way back since the horrible Apple III days. Do you remember the Apple III? The system that Jobs gave the engineers impossible specs to work with and told them they couldn't use a fan because it was "asthetically unappealing and noisy"? remeember what happened? The systems ran so hot they warped their motherboards and popped chips right out of their sockets over time.

Apple has always been more concerned with "designer computers" than with reliability and function. And the MacBook Pro is just the latest example of a problem that started way back with the Apple III.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: What annoys me...
by atsureki on Thu 1st Jun 2006 20:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What annoys me..."
atsureki Member since:
2006-03-12

Do you remember the Apple III? The system that Jobs gave the engineers impossible specs to work with and told them they couldn't use a fan because it was "asthetically unappealing and noisy"? remeember what happened? The systems ran so hot they warped their motherboards and popped chips right out of their sockets over time.

I don't think you remember the Apple III. I don't think you "remember" any of this. I've seen these exact same words in almost the same order before. Either you're borrowing this from someone else or you're the only one saying it and saying it every chance you get.

What I remember about the Apple III is that one of my classrooms had one, and it worked fine. If they survived institutional use without becoming a bubbling cauldron of magma, then one of us must be exaggerating.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: What annoys me...
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 1st Jun 2006 20:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What annoys me..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

*cough*

http://oldcomputers.net/appleiii.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_III

Clearly YOU are the one exaggerating.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: What annoys me...
by Simba on Thu 1st Jun 2006 21:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: What annoys me..."
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

> I don't think you remember the Apple III. I don't think you
> "remember" any of this.

Oh I remember it quite well.

> What I remember about the Apple III is that one of my classrooms
> had one, and it worked fine.

Ah... That's your problem then. You were still in grade school back when I was working one of my first IT jobs as a technician. And your experience is based on "One unit we had in a classroom".

And I never said they became a bubbling cauldron of magma. I said they ran so hot that the motherboards warped over time, and caused them to pop chips out their sockets, which then had to be reseated. No, I am not exagerating.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: What annoys me...
by Thom_Holwerda on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:25 UTC in reply to "RE: What annoys me..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

what a frigg'n whiner!!!!! dude.... the MBPs do not get THAT hot... thay are NO hotter then a similar toshiba or dell with the same dimentions and processor! GIVE ME A BREAK! and how often do you put it on your lap? and for how long?

I have a MacBook Pro sitting right next to me here (loaned from Apple NL for review, I get to keep it for a month, and about a week of that month has already passed), and by god, that thing is RIDICOULOUSY hot. The MBP should have NEVER been released with this amount of heat. It is simply UNACCEPTABLE.

And stop that silly "it is not meant to be used on your lap" kind of nonsense. It is a damn LAPtop, and as such, I will use it as such. If not, I would buy an iMac, now, wouldn't I?

Reply Score: 1

RE: What annoys me...
by Get a Life on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:51 UTC in reply to "What annoys me..."
Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

You really shouldn't use a laptop near your groin, regardless of the vendor. I don't really like Apple as a company, but I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone cook their testes with another laptop just because Apple happens to apply thermal paste like whipped cream.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: What annoys me...
by Simba on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:39 UTC in reply to "RE: What annoys me..."
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

> but I certainly wouldn't suggest that anyone cook their testes...

I don't plan on ever having children anyway. So it's ok ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: What annoys me...
by The Baron on Thu 1st Jun 2006 18:37 UTC in reply to "What annoys me..."
The Baron Member since:
2005-07-06

FWIW my Dell Latitude D505 that I have from work also gets very hot and can't use it on my lap either. I have yet to hear from about the issue. Clearly they are denying the problem exists! ;)

Reply Score: 2

RE: What annoys me...
by JustAnotherMacUser on Thu 1st Jun 2006 19:28 UTC in reply to "What annoys me..."
JustAnotherMacUser Member since:
2006-01-08

Apparently your not comfortable enough being a "early adopter" of new products, not everyone is.

I used Apple's products for over 21 years and I can tell you their products and customer support is above whatever else is available in the computer industry.

Sometimes you might get a person on a bad day, sometimes you may get a glitchy product, but in my experience it's rare and not widespread whatsoever.

In 21 years I only had a few hard drives and mice die on me. Only one virus 17 years ago, not one cent went to anti-virus software. I spend 99% of my lifetime using the computer instead of it using using me.

Some machines were not up to my expectations, some needed improvement, some couldn't be improved because it would result in not putting out a product at all.

But they always worked, and worked so well that these little glitches were well worth overlooking. The other option was the abortion of a PC running Windows with daily headaches, viruses, anti-virus software hobbling CPU's, update problems etc.

So you tried a Mac and it wasn't the picture of computer nirvana you expected, fine. But your onetime experience is no way reflective of what experienced users of both platforms know.

And it just so happens PC Magazine and Consumer Reports both report the same thing. Mac's are simply better overall.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What annoys me...
by Simba on Thu 1st Jun 2006 19:54 UTC in reply to "RE: What annoys me..."
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

> Apparently your not comfortable enough being a "early adopter" of
> new products, not everyone is.

I am very comfortable being an early adopter. What I am not comfortable with is Apple not standing behind their design / manufacturing defects and claiming no problem exist when it clearly does.

> So you tried a Mac and it wasn't the picture of computer nirvana
> you expected, fine.

You assume this is my first Mac. It's not. I've owned them in the past, and up until now, have been pretty happy.

> Mac's are simply better overall.

Macs are built with the same commodity components as PCs these dayss. They are not better. Only difference is that as Apple's manufacturing costs have gone down because of cheaper components, they have raised their prices to their customers instead of lower them like every other sensible computer maker has done.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: What annoys me...
by rockwell on Thu 1st Jun 2006 20:40 UTC in reply to "RE: What annoys me..."
rockwell Member since:
2005-09-13

//Only one virus 17 years ago, not one cent went to anti-virus software.//

I've spent not one dime on AV since 2001 -- not as long as your 17 years, but there are good, free, A/V softwares out there (AVG, Clam, Antivir, etc.) for Windows.

// I spend 99% of my lifetime using the computer instead of it using using me. //

99% of yer life has been spent in front a computer? You need to get out more.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: What annoys me...
by chlordane on Fri 2nd Jun 2006 01:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What annoys me..."
chlordane Member since:
2006-05-11

// I spend 99% of my lifetime using the computer instead of it using using me. //

He probably does, with Mac in his house...

Just buy what ever the hell you want and stop bashing each other, man....

Reply Score: 1

1nd generation problems
by stew on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:36 UTC
stew
Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not necessarily tied to 1st generation products. For example, the infamous failing G3 iBook logic boards were the later ones with Radeon GPUs - the earlier revision with Rage128 chips was fine.

Reply Score: 3

RE: 1nd generation problems
by D-J-P on Fri 2nd Jun 2006 08:46 UTC in reply to "1nd generation problems"
D-J-P Member since:
2005-07-06

Fully agreed.

Reply Score: 1

Problems?
by Get a Life on Thu 1st Jun 2006 16:42 UTC
Get a Life
Member since:
2006-01-01

There aren't any problems. Well no problems that everyone else doesn't have, too. Everyone else has problems! Apple customers are just smart-enough to know how to vocalize their problems. la la la la I can't hear you la la la la

Apple customers are pretty loyal, because Apple is typically important to an Apple customer. The brand is part of their lives, basically. If Apple's first gen product has a defect, they will often assume that everyone else's products has more defects. After all, Apple has superior build quality than its competitors. 9 out of every 10 Apple customers know this fact is true. So if there's a defect in their iMac, Dell's computers probably have twice as many defects. If there's a defect in the design of the Mighty Mouse, there's at least three times as many defects in Microsoft's mouse, and the Microsoft mouse has no style anyway. If the MacBook Pro whines at least it's not a Averatec, and anyway it runs OS X.

Apple probably gets more flak because it receives a disproportionate amount of online media attention to its userbase, and probably because it's frequently the target of grandiose claims of quality. It's like a talk show host who has two illegitimate children that are overweight and sexually promiscuous. But defects are defects, and as a customer that has spent at least several hundred dollars on something, you should certainly not want to be a guinea pig.

Personally I'm holding out for the Merom MBP. Not so much because I expect to obtain a defective first generation, but because I think it'd be a better value. I've had no problem encouraging others to purchase Intel-based iMacs and Minis, and none of them have any complaints. But there are certainly legitimate complaints, and if Apple doesn't hold itself to the high standard set by its proponents, people are going to mention it.

Reply Score: 4

The lesson
by zizban on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:09 UTC
zizban
Member since:
2005-07-06

The lesson always is: Never buy version 1.0 of anything.

Reply Score: 2

illusion of more mac problems
by cesman on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:12 UTC
cesman
Member since:
2006-05-30

Things aren't always what they seem. There can be a perception that's false which is created because of the way some things get reported in the press and online, while other things don't.

The problems that exist on the mac side (with hardware or software) tend to be more repeatable and reproducible. The hardware and software is (on a given model) almost all the same. So the same defects occur, when they occur. There's a pattern that becomes immediately apparent with a given mac product that has a problem. Of course a problem occuring is more likely on a first-gen product. The problem gets flagged by users, posted up on the web and sometimes makes it to a news article or two (at least on internet news site like osnews or cnet).

On the PC side, there's hundreds or thousands of different combinations of hardware, with much more software variability. Models also are constantly being replaced. They all have some obscure designation like "optiplex 6220i". Next week it's "optiplex 6330i". As a result, the problems that occur are more unique to a given machine, or the model is replaced before the problem appears again. The problems don't repeat with a single given model of PC. They're more unique.

Another way of looking at it is this. When you have 1000 people with 500 different machines, it's a lot less likely for all those machines to have the same defect than where all 1000 people have the same machine (e.g., first-gen macbook).

There may be the exact same or even higher rates of failure on the PC, except what causes the failure is different on every different PC model. But those individual defects don't have a pattern. Without a pattern it doesn't become a news story. It's not news that a particular Dell model had a particular problem. The next day, it's a different HP model, with a different problem. That's not a news story.

In fact, if you look at the Consumer Reports studies (based on surveys of thousands of subscribers), the mac is not more likely to have hardware problems than PCs. It's the exact reverse. You have to subscribe to Consumer Reports to get the numbers (my subscription lapsed), but this has been pretty consistently the outcome the last few times Consumer Reports looked at this.

In fact, the greater hardware reliablity of the mac may be due to the fact that the same problems tend to repeat on a given model (or batch of a model). It's easier to eliminate problems when the same ones are occurring. When there's 1000 different PCs with a 300 different problems, that's a lot more work to figure out and fix than a 1000 given macbooks, 300 of which have a defect that is the same. So same failure rate (30 percent), but vastly harder to fix the problem on the PC side going forward.

Edited 2006-06-01 17:29

Reply Score: 1

mmm
by lost on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:13 UTC
lost
Member since:
2006-03-17

I had a lot of Apple product:
- Mac Plus
- Mac SE/30
- Performa 630
- PowerMac 4400
- PowerMac G3 (the beige one)
- Imac G3
- Powerbook G4 Titanium
- PowerMac G5 (1.6GHz, the first one)
- IPod Nano

The only one who sucked was the PowerMac 4400 (it had some problem with its motherboard...) so I cannot agree, except this one all the other still work :-)

Reply Score: 3

Fortune favors the bold
by shadow_x99 on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:23 UTC
shadow_x99
Member since:
2006-05-12

Apple Computer I must admit do a lot of the 'Fortune favors the bold' kind-of products. They want to be cutting-edge with their product and that brings it's share of 'early-adopter problems'

On the other hand, you cannot blame entirely Apple... I think that the argument is valid for manu other manufacturer other than Apple. Take the same 'text' and replace all 'Apple' with 'Hyundai', 'Toyota' or 'Microsoft' (Think XBox 360 here) and you get a 'valid' argument.

Fortune favors the bold!

Reply Score: 2

v But..
by CVDpr on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:23 UTC
First Gen iPOD
by Adurbe on Thu 1st Jun 2006 17:47 UTC
Adurbe
Member since:
2005-07-06

I got my iPod right when it first came out, 1000 songs in my pocket. And guess what... I still use it now! I refuse to pay for a new one, 5 gig is plenty as is 7/8 hours battery. Never had any fault with it.

My iPod is VERY old to the point where it has once again become cool (retro vibe)

Reply Score: 3

RE: First Gen iPOD
by JustAnotherMacUser on Thu 1st Jun 2006 19:34 UTC in reply to "First Gen iPOD"
JustAnotherMacUser Member since:
2006-01-08

I got one too, it's so square and "retro" like you said.

Now everyone has a iPod, these first generation ones get looked at in awe.

Now only I wish I would have invested in Apple stock when they were first released. ;)

*smacks head*

Reply Score: 2

My 'first gens' never had a single problem
by Governa on Thu 1st Jun 2006 18:32 UTC
Governa
Member since:
2006-04-09

I had only 2 first gen Macs:

- the Macintosh LC (1990)
- and the iMac Bondi Blue 233 (1998)

They both still work today. Never had a single problem.

Reply Score: 2

v Why all MS generation products suck?
by hraq on Thu 1st Jun 2006 20:28 UTC
MikeekiM
Member since:
2005-11-16

Plus, the magazine praises Apple for its industry-leading ratings for reliability and support satisfaction, the latter of which Apple has increased over the past three years while the ratings of PC companies have fallen.

http://db.tidbits.com/getbits.acgi?tbart=07890

That's the problem with reality.
It shows a Flamer to be a Flamer.
When Dell pulls itself out of it's quality NoseDive then maybe I'll believe this BS.

Reply Score: 3

Xbox?
by markus on Thu 1st Jun 2006 21:50 UTC
markus
Member since:
2006-01-14

I owned about 20 Macs in my live including a bouch of PowerBooks.

Some of the PowerBooks had minor flaws but nothing was so bad than Dell laptops some of my friends owned.

(The enclosure was not durable, several pieces broke, etc.)

But when complaining about new products (and I don't say Apple is perfect) why not complaining about Microsofts Xbox???

Reply Score: 1

well...
by Pliep on Thu 1st Jun 2006 22:18 UTC
Pliep
Member since:
2006-02-05

A man buys a 1st gen. Apple product. It appears to have defects. The man has two options:

1) blog and complain and tell the world Apple products suck as well as their service.

2) go back to the store and demand a proper one or his money back.

It's pure psychology. First option is easy, anonymous and relieves stress. Second option takes time and hassle and you may just get what you're entitled to so that leaves nothing to compain about.

I'd go for 1 too. ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE: well...
by Simba on Thu 1st Jun 2006 23:20 UTC in reply to "well..."
Simba Member since:
2005-10-08

> A man buys a 1st gen. Apple product. It appears to have defects.
> The man has two options...

Actually, it goes a little more like this:

1. Go to store, demand proper one or money back. Apple insists nothing is wrong no matter how much you argue. Sure they will give you your money back, but only for a 10% restocking fee, which works out to about $250 on a system like that.

2. Excercise remaining option, which is blog and complain and tell the world Apple products suck as well as their service.

Reply Score: 1

Quoth_the_Raven
Member since:
2005-11-15

I've had first-gen original iMacs, iMac G5s and iMac Core Duos, first gen G4 Mac minis and first-gen Solo and Duo Core Mac minis. Never had a problem with any of them.

Reply Score: 2

Apple has quality issues
by BWhaler on Thu 1st Jun 2006 23:55 UTC
BWhaler
Member since:
2005-07-06

I only buy Apple hardware for personal use and for my company, and I agree that Apple is having some serious quality issues.

I think since I see about 10 Apple computers a month, I have a good representative data sample.

The real problem is it is not just Rev. A computers which have these quality

The 2.5 Ghz PowerMac chirps perpetually. The last gen 17" PowerBook has screen and fit issues. The Intel Mac mini has wireless and bluetooth issues.

And the MacBook is too hot and moos.

Obviously, I am a loyal and hard core Apple guy, so it pains me to discuss this.

But Apple has some serious quality issues going on, and it's obvious that some serious changes are needed.

Reply Score: 1

StephenBeDoper
Member since:
2005-07-06

I am sure somewhere, some engineer, motherboard designer, manufacturer, etc decreed that that was the correct amount of grease to apply

And that person is apparently less competent, when it comes to assembling PCs, than your run-of-the-mill geek DIYer.

which may or not be the correct amount in the eyes of posters to this or other websites or other manufacturers.

There are only two explanations I can think of that would make the amount of thermal paste correct. First, they confused the processes of installing a heatsink with the process of icing a cupcake. Or second, perhaps they thought the core duo might get too cold, so they made sure there's enough thermal paste to act as insulation.

Browser: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0; Windows 98; PalmSource/hspr-H102; Blazer/4.0) 16;320x320

Reply Score: 1