Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 14:26 UTC
KDE This is the 3rd installment in my series on deficiencies in common desktop environments. After GNOME and the Mac/MacOS, it is now KDE's turn. As with the other installments, this is a rant. Beware.
Order by: Score:
K-Names
by Ascay on Sun 18th Jun 2006 14:51 UTC
Ascay
Member since:
2005-07-11

> Last but not least: get a decent naming scheme.
> Seriously. K this, K that; just... Don't. Really. I
> suggest a global renaming of KDE applications into
> normal, k-less names.

Come on, the K-names are history in KDE4 and I guess you know that already. None of the new parts (e.g. Plasma, Phonon) start with a k.

Reply Score: 5

RE: K-Names
by sappyvcv on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:00 UTC in reply to "K-Names"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

I was under the impression that those were just code names?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: K-Names
by el3ktro on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:51 UTC in reply to "RE: K-Names"
el3ktro Member since:
2006-01-10

I'm not sure, but I hope they don't are just code names. This K this K that thing also really annoys me. It was perhaps funny in the beginning of KDE, but KDE has nore and more apps, and now it's just odd. Sometimes things like "Kontact" make both an English speaker and a German think that it's just a spelling mistake ("contact" in english and "kontakt" in german) :-(

Tom

Reply Score: 1

Point #4
by kadymae on Sun 18th Jun 2006 14:59 UTC
kadymae
Member since:
2005-08-02

About that software install window? I use (and like) Ubuntu, and I'm looking at that gobbley gook nightmare and all I can think is:

1) WTF is a tag?
2) How the hell do I tell the program what software I want to add?

Reply Score: 3

RE: Point #4
by skx2 on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:02 UTC in reply to "Point #4"
skx2 Member since:
2005-07-06

There is an introduction to Debian Package tags here: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/192

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Point #4
by kadymae on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:44 UTC in reply to "Point #4"
kadymae Member since:
2005-08-02

There is an introduction to Debian Package tags here: http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/192

ARRRGGHHHHHHH!

I can see how that would be useful to some really super detailed anal people.

But damn'd if it should be collapsed in the standard view, and even then there should be a link to explain to the noobs what tags are and why they might want them.

Because as is, that interface just confused the hell out of me, and without your link, if I used KDE, I might have just added things willy nilly.

Reply Score: 2

Interesting as usual
by dylansmrjones on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:00 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

I don't agree with all points of critique from Thom, but I have to admit that he hits several sore spots.

The lack of coherence is why I chose Gnome over KDE. Not because Gnome is all that (it's really not), but because so many things work so closely together.

The idea of every part working to enhance the whole part is essentiel to a good UI for the user.

In many ways you have to look at the alternative OS'es to find this taken to the extreme, even though Mac OS tend to get it more correct than Gnome/KDE and Windows.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting as usual
by el3ktro on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:53 UTC in reply to "Interesting as usual"
el3ktro Member since:
2006-01-10

I agree - it's the exact same reason why I switched to Gnome a while ago. It's much better in this part, although far away from being perfect. KDE just confused me too much at some point with all it's options & configurability.

Tom

Reply Score: 1

RE: Interesting as usual
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:59 UTC in reply to "Interesting as usual"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

Funny enough, I choose KDE over Gnome for the very same reason you're choosing Gnome over KDE.

Maybe it's me being unable to appreciate Gnome, but I really feel KDE as an integrated, coherent thing, while Gnome looks like just a bunch of GTK apps. Gaim or Gnumeric or Abiword are not GNOME apps: they're GTK apps that happen to have some Gnome integration. KDE apps are really KDE apps (think or KParts integration in Konqueror, for example). I guess my world looks like a Bizarro world to Thom (and vice-versa)...

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Interesting as usual
by Celerate on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Interesting as usual"
Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

Yeah, I chose KDE for that same reason. KDE applications are tightly integrated together, but I can see where both environments are incoherent.

KDE has a number of applications ranging from amateur to excellent that use only the Qt toolkit, they are made this way for portability beyond the realm of X11 and Xorg bound operating systems; however, it means that they don't share the same icons as all the other KDE applications, and they frequently use the rather unattractive and impractical generic Qt open and save dialogs. The key-bindings are also sometimes quite inconsistent.

Gnome on the other hand shares many of its non-core applications with a few other GTK based desktop environments. Those applications can very literally be transplanted from one into another and seem to fit in indestinguishably to the untrained eye. The thing is that those applications were designed with GTK in mind, but not necessarily Gnome, so they are much more independent from their fellow applications and have some subtle inconsistencies from the norm which many end users wouldn't notice.

Ultimately though, KDE does have some UI problems in its third party applications. One look at Adept is all the proof someone needs, it has a unique and very aggravating UI design. I'm surprised that Kubuntu uses it instead of Kynaptic which is much simpler, after all, the Ubuntu family of distributions aims to keep things easy.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Interesting as usual
by TheBadger on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Interesting as usual"
TheBadger Member since:
2005-11-14

"One look at Adept is all the proof someone needs, it has a unique and very aggravating UI design. I'm surprised that Kubuntu uses it instead of Kynaptic which is much simpler, after all, the Ubuntu family of distributions aims to keep things easy."

I was shocked when seeing Adept in Kubuntu Breezy that they'd made it too complicated: scrolling console stuff, lots of buttons. Kynaptic is a fairly nice, simple package manager that they really should have worked on, especially since it would just pump critical errors to standard error, but then I guess they went completely the other way and threw in every complicating aspect of package management, instead of giving a nice way of looking under the surface once in a while to resolve such errors.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Interesting as usual
by LinuxHawk on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:45 UTC in reply to "Interesting as usual"
LinuxHawk Member since:
2005-11-29

Odd, I like KDE over Gnome for almost the same things you choose Gnome over KDE.
Maybe I have been driving around in it for so long I just know it well, but every time I try Gname, I get lost, and things do not work or have funky quirks.

I have tried Gnome on almost a dozen PC's (Home built clones and propriety systems) and never found it reliable. KDE on the other hand has always done me right.

But I do know of others who had the opposite results with Gnome working for them, but KDE giving issues.

My opinion..... 6 of 1 @ half a doven of the other...

Reply Score: 1

Which password?
by skx2 on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:00 UTC
skx2
Member since:
2005-07-06

Whilst I admit the dialog box you use as an example does need some love it does tell you which password to enter in the title bar.

It is easy to overlook - but it is present.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Which password?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:12 UTC in reply to "Which password?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

it does tell you which password to enter in the title bar.

No, it does not. Root means nothing to normal people. It should have a clear-cut explanation of which password is needed, why, and what the launching program will do.

All of those lack in this dialog.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Which password?
by skx2 on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
skx2 Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe "root" means nothing to normal people - but somebody installing Linux isn't a normal person.

You asked a couple of questions:

"Which password? My personal account password? My administrator password? My god-mode password? Why is there no explanation which password, and why exactly you need to enter it?"

I suggested that the title bar informed you that it was the "root" password which was being prompted for - something you actually acknowleged by calling it the root password dialog in the first place!

Saying that root means nothing to users is different from claiming to not understand which password is being saught.

I'd easily agree that the dialog is not good, as you say it doesn't explain why you need it. It doesn't give enough details at all.

But it does do what you claim it did not. It tells you which account the password is being requested for.

So whilst I agreed with the points raised in the article I'm not going to watch you change the question afterwards.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Which password?
by kadymae on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Which password?"
kadymae Member since:
2005-08-02

Maybe "root" means nothing to normal people - but somebody installing Linux isn't a normal person.

So what's grandma/grandpa do to when they're using the box that their grandkid set up for them?

And you're also missing the point behind the whole Ubuntu movement -- Linux is for normal people.

More and more linux is being used by "normal" people who are sick of windows and it's confusing and frustrating (easily fixable) stuff like that that makes the Linux learning curve needlessly steep.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Which password?
by skx2 on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Which password?"
skx2 Member since:
2005-07-06

I've setup Linux for "grandma" before and I'd say that either a) they would have been given a tour and had the basics explained to them, or b) they'd never need to use root for the email checking + websurfing.

I know Ubuntu/KUbuntu is aimed at normal people, its not there yet, but getting closer each release.

I'm certainly not saying that shouldn't continue - I just that that the password dialog argument was really draining the barrel.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Which password?
by Terracotta on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Which password?"
Terracotta Member since:
2005-08-15

But in Kubuntu you only have one password: your password, so it is correct. If you're no sudo-user you'll get a dialog box which states that you might not have the necesary permissions.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: Which password?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Which password?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

But in Kubuntu you only have one password: your password, so it is correct.

What are you talking about? If there is only ONE user, THEN there is only one password, but as soon as you add another account-- there will be two.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Which password?
by Bjoern on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:17 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Which password?"
Bjoern Member since:
2006-06-05

What are you talking about? If there is only ONE user, THEN there is only one password, but as soon as you add another account-- there will be two.

However, that account won't have sudo rights as default, so it won't see the dialog.

I really do not see the problem. It seems obvious that when the dialog asks for "your" password, it is in fact your password, not some other account's, it wants. Granted, had there been a root account there could be confusion about whether it wants "your user password" or "your root password" -- but there isn't.

What do you think it should say?

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: Which password?
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Which password?"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

Moreover, even if you are another account, and you have sudo rights, it is still your password.
Really, I can't get what's the point of Thom here. I feel he doesn't understand how does Ubuntu work.

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: Which password?
by dodongo on Mon 19th Jun 2006 04:18 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Which password?"
dodongo Member since:
2005-12-07

"Moreover, even if you are another account, and you have sudo rights, it is still your password."

Bingo. "Your" is a deictic term, which means that (in this case) the possessor changes depending on who is referred to.

In the case of *buntu, it's essentially expected that each person using the computer has their own user account, and it's explicitly expected in the dialogues that each person uses only his or her account, none other.

Thus, the password requested in the box and "your" password should always, always be the same.

I agree with you on the buttons, and I do agree a reworking of the text would be good WRT the command.

But "Please enter your password to run this program" or whatever the Ubuntu admin rights dialogue says would work very well for the prompt.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Which password?
by AdamW on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
AdamW Member since:
2005-07-06

Besides, even if you know what root is, the titlebar still doesn't tell you what password you need to enter. You don't always enter the root password to run an app as root. Consider sudo.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Which password?
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

There is no "root" in Ubuntu. Everything is done by using sudo.
So, normal people don't need understanding what root means. The password is *your* password, really.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Which password?
by Innova on Sun 18th Jun 2006 23:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Which password?"
Innova Member since:
2005-09-30

There is "root" in other distro's, and this is a critique of KDE *not* Ubuntu, so point still valid.....

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Which password?
by cm__ on Mon 19th Jun 2006 00:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Which password?"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> There is "root" in other distro's, and this is a
> critique of KDE *not* Ubuntu, so point still valid.....

No, it's not valid. This dialog version _is_ specific to Ubuntu, and Thom is aware of the fact that he is not reviewing KDE proper but what Kubuntu has made of it: "this column is based on the KDE as shipped in the latest Kubuntu release."

On Debian for example kdesu asks you explicitely to enter the password of the _root_ user. That's the normal non-patched version of the kdesu dialog.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Which password?
by falemagn on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
falemagn Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, thom, it does tell you clearly which password you need to enter: your password.

Which user were you logged in with? That user's password is the one you need to enter.

There's no root password on kubuntu.

-- edit --

Granted, it could be made better, by for instance spelling the name of the user, perhaps like this: "thom, please enter your password", where "thom" would be that user's login.

Edited 2006-06-18 21:42

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Which password?
by TheBadger on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:09 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
TheBadger Member since:
2005-11-14

Yes, the "Run as root" dialogue needs to be explicit, even if there has to be some kind of extra work done to work out whether the system wants the actual root password or the user's own password. The ambiguity compounded an issue I had with sudo not being set up on previous Kubuntu releases: which password did it want? Initially I assumed it wanted the root password, but only after digging deeper did I realise that it wanted my own password... and a working sudo configuration, of course.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Which password?
by warpengi on Mon 19th Jun 2006 16:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
warpengi Member since:
2006-06-19

While this is a relevant gripe it is a Kubuntu issue NOT a KDE issue.

Kubuntu is not KDE and this does not happen with (for instance) Suse. The dialogue box in Suse clearly asks for the root password where you want to see it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Which password?
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 19th Jun 2006 16:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Which password?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Kubuntu is not KDE and this does not happen with (for instance) Suse. The dialogue box in Suse clearly asks for the root password where you want to see it.

Yes. And guess what this article was CLEARLY about?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Which password?
by warpengi on Mon 19th Jun 2006 17:16 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Which password?"
warpengi Member since:
2006-06-19

The article was CLEARLY part of a series about Desktop Environments. I understand you have a hard time with Linux compared to MSWindows and Mac because you only have to deal with one distro for the last two.

The 1st sentence in the article
"This is the 3rd installment in my series on deficiencies in common desktop environments. After GNOME and the Mac/MacOS, it is now KDE's turn"

You don't mention which distro you used for GNOME there. Can I assume that your next commentary on a DE will obscure this fact about KDE as well? This is not a series of articles about DE's, then, so much as it is about different distros'. From your title I was expecting a comparison of DE's not distros.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Which password?
by Thom_Holwerda on Mon 19th Jun 2006 17:22 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Which password?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Oh?

"What Sucks About DEs, pt. III: Kubuntu's KDE

And, first line of the body of the column:

"this column is based on the KDE as shipped in the latest Kubuntu release."

I cannot make it any clearer than that. I'm sorry. Next time I will use the marquee tag, ok?

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Which password?
by warpengi on Mon 19th Jun 2006 17:23 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Which password?"
warpengi Member since:
2006-06-19

OK, thanks.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Which password?
by Ronald Vos on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:56 UTC in reply to "Which password?"
Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

"Whilst I admit the dialog box you use as an example does need some love it does tell you which password to enter in the title bar."

So what does the ignore button do?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Which password?
by smitty on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Well, it should probably be renamed to "Skip", but I don't think it that confusing if you stop and think about it - just annoying and badly designed.

By the way, the default box comes with a more descriptive message which explains the Ignore button saying:

The action you requested needs root privileges. Please enter root's password below or click Ignore to continue with your current priveleges.

Kubuntu clearly tried to modify this dialog box to fit in with their "root doesn't exist" approach, and completely screwed up user-friendlyness in the process.

Edited 2006-06-18 20:12

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Which password?
by kanwar.plaha on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:45 UTC in reply to "Which password?"
kanwar.plaha Member since:
2006-02-20

The dialog is clear. <sarcasm> Maybe you should know that (K)ubuntu implements sudo to run privileged commands. </sarcasm>

It says "Please enter *your* password" and yes, it means your personal password. Otherwise, the dialog says, enter administrator or root password etc.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Which password?
by kaiwai on Mon 19th Jun 2006 05:34 UTC in reply to "Which password?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, he is looking at it from a usability point of view; if you showed that to an average user, will he know what he is about to do? lets say its a trojan, and it requesting the password, why does it ask the password? well, joe user is unsure about computers, and he assumes that the computer knows best, so be puts in his password, and voila, rooted system.

Firstly, the dialogue needs to be headed up with "Application [name] requests Super User Privilages", then in the dialogue box, a small repeat of that, and a preamble as to what it actually means, such as, "[application[ is requesting, what is known as, super user privilages - to allow this to happen, you need to put in your password, BUT, by putting in your password, you are granting access to the whole system to the application, this is very risky as the application could be a virus!"

Its about notifying, educating and providing options; the dialogue box included gobbly goop like su, and so forth, which the average user would find completely over their head.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Which password?
by falemagn on Mon 19th Jun 2006 06:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Which password?"
falemagn Member since:
2005-07-06

> so be puts in his password, and voila, rooted system.

That could never happen in that case, since only kdesu, by using sudo, has the ability to let you act as if you were "root" by using the password of the normal user you're logged in with. No trojan could be able to do the same.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Which password?
by kaiwai on Tue 20th Jun 2006 04:33 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Which password?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

That could never happen in that case, since only kdesu, by using sudo, has the ability to let you act as if you were "root" by using the password of the normal user you're logged in with. No trojan could be able to do the same.

Geeze, simple things do need explaining:

Clueless user downloads application, clueless user installs said application, clueless user loads application, he is presented with said dialogue box, said user assumes this is part of the 'normal' process of running an application, what said user doesn't know is his system is about to become rooted.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Which password?
by archiesteel on Tue 20th Jun 2006 16:53 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Which password?"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Clueless user downloads application, clueless user installs said application, clueless user loads application, he is presented with said dialogue box, said user assumes this is part of the 'normal' process of running an application, what said user doesn't know is his system is about to become rooted.

...which is a great argument in favor of software repositories, which alert you when a downloaded package's digital signature does not match the official one.

Reply Score: 1

RE
by Kroc on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:01 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

The K names annoy me the most because it doesn't mean anything -
When I booted SuSE 9 for the first time, I got a tip of the day that read "The K in KDE doesn't actually stand for anything. The letter K is next to the letter 'L' in the Roman alphabet, which stands for our favourite thing - Linux!"

I mean seriously; how can you take an OS with any salt when that's the first thing you see? SuSE 9 was a hemouraging Absorbalorf of a system. SuSE 10 is far cleaner thankfully, and even Kubuntu is a massively cleaner KDE distro compared to what KDE can really be.

Update
An actual screenshot here: http://www.deviantart.com/view/13892068/
(and here's a shot of Adobe being similarly stupid: http://www.deviantart.com/view/32789616/ )

Edited 2006-06-18 15:04

Reply Score: 4

RE
by czubin on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:25 UTC in reply to "RE"
czubin Member since:
2005-12-31

KDE was first called Cool Desktop Environment but that conflicted with CDE sooo they went on with Kool Desktop Environment etc

Reply Score: 5

RE
by Terracotta on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:32 UTC in reply to "RE"
Terracotta Member since:
2005-08-15

The vertical text has its advantage: look at Amarok: because the put: context, collection, playlists, files... vertical you just have a small bar. Otherwise they'd have to have big bar with just four options, so a loooooot of space lost. Besides when it's just four options it's ok, it used to be six and that was a problem so they adressed it.

Edited 2006-06-18 15:34

Reply Score: 1

RE
by Mitarai on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:37 UTC in reply to "RE"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

It may feed well in amarok, but not in Konqueror, kmixer, [insert kluttered app. here], etc. is to over abused.

Reply Score: 1

RE
by stestagg on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:33 UTC in reply to "RE"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

BTW. It is actually spelled Absorbaloff according it it's inventor. ;)

Stephen

Reply Score: 1

RE
by IndigoJo on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:42 UTC in reply to "RE"
IndigoJo Member since:
2005-07-06

When I booted SuSE 9 for the first time, I got a tip of the day that read "The K in KDE doesn't actually stand for anything. The letter K is next to the letter 'L' in the Roman alphabet, which stands for our favourite thing - Linux!"

That's only one of many hints you get while starting KDE or its apps for the first time. I've used every version of SUSE since 8.1 and I've never seen that particular tip. But I agree it is lame.

Reply Score: 1

Tend to agree
by jdrake on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:02 UTC
jdrake
Member since:
2005-07-07

I tend to agree in general.

Right now I am 'cutting my teeth' on GNOME with Ubuntu (which is working fairly well) for the 4th time. I don't have any constraints holding me to Windows (such as school and no time to commit to trying to make it work) and it is working fairly well.

I have used KDE in the past and in general it works well. The problems are hard to really explain. Suffice it to say that the plethora of options and every dialog being really separate (must apply each setting dialog at once and will even warn you if you switch dialogs) make for the greatest annoyance I have.

That said, I feel that Linux is really coming along as a desktop. With this growth efforts to fix the problems Thom is pointing out are being made.

- Jeff

Reply Score: 1

RE: Tend to agree
by unoengborg on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:03 UTC in reply to "Tend to agree"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06


Suffice it to say that the plethora of options and every dialog being really separate (must apply each setting dialog at once and will even warn you if you switch dialogs) make for the greatest annoyance I have.


I think the problem with KDE is that they try to make everything simple to do. A better approach would be to try to make common tasks simple while making sure that the rest is not impossible.

I dont think there is so much problems with the KDE control center anymore. It have been rearranged, and cleaned up numerous times. I doubt going over it again would improve it much. Hopefully most people spend much more time in their applications than configuring the system, so this is where the developers need to focus.

My favorite example on how, this make everything simple complicates life for an ordinary user is how drag&drop in the file manager. If you drag a file and drops it in a folder, you get a popup menu asking you to "Move here", "Copy here", "Link here" or "Cancel". Why not just move the file, no questions asked. That is what most users would want to do. It is the operation that best fits the desktop methaphore. It is how it works in most other desktop environments.

Let's look at this a little closer. The "Cancel" item. The only reason that is needed is that you have a pop up menu in the first place.

The "Link here" item is very rarely used. I would guess that on the average Unix system the share of links is less than 1/1000 of all files in the file system. Many of thes links are created by intall scripts, and not by drag and drop in KDE. I would also guess that it is far more common that sysadmins make links than ordinary users.

So essentially there are two choices in that menu is almost never used, that is there just to make it simple to do everything.

A much better aproach would have been to just move the file, and handle the other options with "Copy", and "Paste" just like in all other applications. The link option could then appear as "Paste as link" in the "Edit" menu".

KDE developers need to identify what ordinary users (not sysadmins) do most frequently and make sure that they works smoothly.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: Tend to agree
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Tend to agree"
v RE[3]: Tend to agree
by Mitarai on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Tend to agree"
v RE[4]: Tend to agree
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:07 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Tend to agree"
v RE[5]: Tend to agree
by Mitarai on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:09 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Tend to agree"
RE[2]: Tend to agree
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Tend to agree"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

Why not just move the file, no questions asked. That is what most users would want to do. It is the operation that best fits the desktop methaphore. It is how it works in most other desktop environments.

NO. NO. NO. NO.
That's exactly something I *hate* of other DEs and a part of why, even if not using KDE as a whole DE (I'm on XFCE now) I like Konqueror so much (I love to say it's my own Linux "killer app").

Saying that moving is "what most users want to do" is a senseless sentence to be polite. Users do actions on files according to what they need to do. Sometimes it's copying. Sometimes it's moving. It depends. It's not that "moving" is more trendy. I really love the fact Konqueror gives me each time the chance to choose what I want to do.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Tend to agree
by Knuckles on Mon 19th Jun 2006 10:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Tend to agree"
Knuckles Member since:
2005-06-29

Yeah that's a number one feature for me too!

I would mod you up if you weren't already at +5.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Tend to agree
by segedunum on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Tend to agree"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

If you drag a file and drops it in a folder, you get a popup menu asking you to "Move here", "Copy here", "Link here" or "Cancel". Why not just move the file, no questions asked. That is what most users would want to do. It is the operation that best fits the desktop methaphore. It is how it works in most other desktop environments.

That's what I like best about Konqueror. On other environments if I drag and drop I don't know if it has been moved or copied (it's most likely been moved), and if I specifically want to copy it I have to go through the utter tediousness of right-clicking, selecting copy...... This way I can do either really easy. It's a major advantage of Konqueror in my eyes, and those of many others and it isn't hard to figure out at all. It makes file management much, much, much easier. It's one of those nice surprises, where you expect Konqueror to work in one way and it turns out to be much easier than you thought.

Let's look at this a little closer. The "Cancel" item. The only reason that is needed is that you have a pop up menu in the first place.

The cancel button is there because otherwise, you'd have to click on something else to get rid of the pop up. That's not hard to figure out either. They could just make the pop up disappear when you took your mouse out of its area though.

The "Link here" item is very rarely used. I would guess that on the average Unix system the share of links is less than 1/1000 of all files in the file system.

The equivalent on Windows is the 'Create Shortcut', and few people seem to complain about that. Maybe it needs a better description.

I would also guess that it is far more common that sysadmins make links than ordinary users.

Sys admins are users as well, and I see no reason why you can't make it straightforward and easy for both sets of users.

A much better aproach would have been to just move the file, and handle the other options with "Copy", and "Paste" just like in all other applications. The link option could then appear as "Paste as link" in the "Edit" menu".

It's tedious and it's slow and it's a right pain in the backside when it comes to file management.

Edited 2006-06-18 20:09

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Tend to agree
by nutshell42 on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Tend to agree"
nutshell42 Member since:
2006-01-12

My favorite example on how, this make everything simple complicates life for an ordinary user is how drag&drop in the file manager. If you drag a file and drops it in a folder, you get a popup menu asking you to "Move here", "Copy here", "Link here" or "Cancel". Why not just move the file, no questions asked. That is what most users would want to do. It is the operation that best fits the desktop methaphore. It is how it works in most other desktop environments.

Microsoft spent millions to find the actions people most likely want to do when dnd'ing a file.
The result? I use right-click dnd to get the menu and most non-computer experts I know use copy&paste exclusively to get around Windows' "I know what you want" attitude.

Thom:
Take Kopete, for instance. I think it is miles ahead of Gaim 1.x and even Gaim 2.x in terms of functionality, and I really like it-- however, it is just Kopete. It does not feel as if it is part of a greater whole; whereas Gaim integrates much better with the rest of GNOME (still not as good as i.e. iChat integrates with the MacOS, but still). The climax of this is Amarok; it even has its own live CD.

It looks like other KDE apps, behaves like other KDE apps and uses kio and that stuff, so what should they do differently? Note: I use neither Kopete nor Gaim so I have no idea what you're talking about and it would have been nice if, instead of 3 paragraphs about what is not coherence but consistency, you could have spelled out what in this special case coherence should be.

2. The password dialog:
You're on Kubuntu, there is no root password.
btw. the non-Kubuntu dialog goes like this:
The action you requested needs root privileges. Please enter root's password below or click Ignore to continue with your current privileges
Which is better imho. It makes clear that root is a user.

3. Don't forget the config dialogs of the panel clock

4. Kubuntu has a different, much simpler dialog for (un)installing software in its control center

5.However, something as elementary as setting icon size for desktop icons independently from the rest of the file manager is impossible!
It's not. Konqueror->View->Icon Size
Btw. you can set the number of lines Konqueror should use for filenames in the filemanager config.

6. They solved the problem of getting toolbars back into position in KDE 3.4. As long as you drop it in the right region it ends up where it should. At least I haven't had any problems with toolbars since 3.3

7. Set the KMenu to "descriptions only" (panel configuration->menus).

Out of your complaints 3. is the only good one. 1. needs more explaining, 2., 6. and 7. is just grasping for something to criticize, 4. is not really valid and 5. is wrong.

Reply Score: 5

add this
by ple_mono on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:04 UTC
ple_mono
Member since:
2005-07-26

You forgot to add this extremely annoying bug where desktop icons REFUSE to align to grid on the desktop. And also, why the hell can't I configure if i want one or three rows of icons in kicker and task bar...
There is NO %variable to use when selecting a file in media:// for use in a service-menu commands. mplayer can't open media://media/sdb1/movies/whatever.avi ;) . (about service-menu commands, gui editor please - like nautilus actions, or custom command in thunar)
Oh, and last but not least, deleting files in fat32 disks often copies them to trash, as in COPY all info to new loctaion (trash)- not change location to trash.
disclaimer - I am a kde user - but i am sick and tired of these little annoyances...

Edited 2006-06-18 15:06

Reply Score: 4

RE: add this
by IgorKH on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:24 UTC in reply to "add this"
IgorKH Member since:
2005-07-13

FreeDesktop.org does work on a desktop-neutral virtual file system: http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software_2fdvfs

Reply Score: 1

...
by Mitarai on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:18 UTC
Mitarai
Member since:
2005-07-28

You forgot the annoyanse of the vertical text everywhere, even the kmixer, It is hard already try to read something in the middle of all the klutter to have to read vertical text too.

Edited 2006-06-18 15:18

Reply Score: 4

RE: ...
by stestagg on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:37 UTC in reply to "..."
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

lol... klutter. That's the only reason I haven't tried KDE yet, every screenshot I've seen of it looks really cluttered, it seems that the buttons/widgets/bars take up like 70% of the screen space leaving no room for any acutal work. I'm sure that it's just because everyone seems to use that 'candy' theme but it's put me off.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: ...
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:16 UTC in reply to "RE: ..."
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

Use ThinKeramik and derivatives, appropriate font sizes and smaller toolbar icons and you will find that KDE can do just fine in terms of screen real estate.

It's impossible to do the same with GNOME because the applications are designed from the start to be inefficient in terms of screen real-estate and not a single GTK+ theme is compact (they are all varying degrees of oversized widgets).

Reply Score: 1

mhm
by Terracotta on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:29 UTC
Terracotta
Member since:
2005-08-15

1) Coherence is indeed a problem in KDE, although they are working on it for KDE4.

2) The second one isn't completely fair since it's Kubuntu you're working on and hence the dialog is completely correct. There IS NO ROOT password, all you have is your own password if you're an administrator, a non sudo-user won't be able to pass past this dialog box.

3) I don't know about klaptop, since I never used it, but I don't use KDE on my laptop, because I can't find suspend to ram and hybernate in Kubuntu, Xubuntu has it (probably ripped it from the Ubuntu stuff).

4) Adept is to me a way better package manager than Synaptic, the tags stuff, ok, I don't know what it is, but for the rest it's way more usefull, I prefer the adept tools above the synaptic-add/remove stuff... but that's personal probably.

5) well, I dislike icons on my desktop (it must be the single stupiest idea ever to place stuff there, superkaramba stuff, ok, but files??? :s. (but again, it's my idea of how it should be, so icons are disabled on the desktop on my pc).

6)Lock toolbar is available in Kubuntu, richt click on kicker and there's an option: lock the toolbar, difficult to find he :s. But well could be because I used KDE 3.5.3 from the kubuntu.org repos, perhaps it's not there in KDE 3.5.2 that ships nativ with dapper drake.

7)Every project decides for itself its naming scheme, but if you look at Amarok that used to be amaroK, and plasma, phonon... (which are the real future names btw), they're dealing with it.

Reply Score: 3

RE: mhm
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:33 UTC in reply to "mhm"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

6)Lock toolbar is available in Kubuntu, richt click on kicker and there's an option: lock the toolbar, difficult to find he :s.

That option is placed in Kicker because it, well, only applies to Kicker.

Reply Score: 1

RE: mhm
by Ascay on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:39 UTC in reply to "mhm"
Ascay Member since:
2005-07-11

> 4) Adept is to me a way better package manager than
> Synaptic, the tags stuff, ok, I don't know what it is,
> but for the rest it's way more usefull, I prefer the
> adept tools above the synaptic-add/remove stuff... but
> that's personal probably.

I guess he just meant the extremely cluttered interface that doesn't even remember that I hid the options I never use (e.g. the tags). I prefer Synaptic on KDE too.

> 6)Lock toolbar is available in Kubuntu, richt click
> on kicker and there's an option: lock the toolbar,

But that locks everything. You can't even add a new icon to the toolbar. :/

Reply Score: 1

RE: K-Names
by cyrilleberger on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:32 UTC
cyrilleberger
Member since:
2006-02-01

With the notable exception of plasma, all other names are for library or subsystem which won't be that visible for the user.

As for the k-scheme, I note that tom didn't complained about the i-scheme of MacOSX. And I personaly see no problem in this, it's a like a brand.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: K-Names
by Mitarai on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:40 UTC in reply to "RE: K-Names"
Mitarai Member since:
2005-07-28

IN OS-X the sheme is at least in an understandab le order:

iThis, iThat, iFoo, iBar.

With KDE you have:

Kthis, thisK, Khis, thiK.

A total mess.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: K-Names
by Jesuspower on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:29 UTC in reply to "RE: K-Names"
Jesuspower Member since:
2006-01-28

But MacOS does not have:
iSafari
iUpdate
iConsole
iDashboard
iSearch
iDock
iTerminal
iSystem Preferences
iFinder
iPages
iKeynote
iSherlock
itexteditor
iProgram environment, ibattery statusetc...
Annoying, isn't it?
Its not just most KDE programs that have that noming scheme, its all of them + plus every Komponent that is a piece of the system.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: K-Names
by NxStY on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:49 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: K-Names"
NxStY Member since:
2005-11-12

Why? Apps doesn't have to be named after a certain scheme.

KDE naming is a mess. Sometimes a letter is replaced with a K (konsole), sometimes a K is appended before (kcontrol), sometimes a K in the name is just written in upper-case (amaroK). KDE devs should really name their apps better instead of just desperatly trying to get a K in their names.

Apple apps usually have good names; finder (find files), iTunes (play tunes), iPhoto (manage photos).

KDE apps usually doesn't; Konqueror, K3B, Kopete etc.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: K-Names
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: K-Names"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

Who cares? What difference does it really make? People go on and on about the naming but I have yet to see one single valid reason. Inconsistency is not a valid reason. The names are spelled with K's to make them distinctive and interesting. The K doesn't impart any extra information about the program except that it belongs to KDE. So it doesn't really matter if sometimes you replace a letter, and sometimes you prefix a K, etc. The pattern is based entirely on aesthetics.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: K-Names
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: K-Names"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

The pattern is based entirely on aesthetics.

Yes, but it is ANNOYING. I start up my compuer to KDE. I wait for the Kicker to come to live. I fire up Kontact's Kmail module to check my mail. I launch Konqueror to read OSNews, while at the same time waiting for Amarok to come up. After that, I load Kopete to start chatting with friends.

Etc.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: K-Names
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: K-Names"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

That's not really an argument, at all. Please give a better argument than "I can list a bunch of apps that start with K".

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: K-Names
by Alex Forster on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:28 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: K-Names"
Alex Forster Member since:
2005-08-12

Actually is an argument. One which makes his point quite well.

Or do you mean to say you disagree--that [*]K[*] isn't everywhere?

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: K-Names
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:38 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: K-Names"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

And what is the argument exactly? He said two things
1) K-names are annoying
2) [long list of K-name programs]

He didn't say why it was annoying.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: K-Names
by NxStY on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: K-Names"
NxStY Member since:
2005-11-12

Names of apps are important for the simple reason that they´re a part of the experience. How would you feel for a DE where everything had names like "E-mail application", "file browser application", "image viewer application" etc.?

Sure you can´t give a technical reason why it's important, just like you can't give a technical reason why eye candy is important. Yet a lot of people would agree that it's.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: K-Names
by el3ktro on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:03 UTC in reply to "RE: K-Names"
el3ktro Member since:
2006-01-10

The problem is, almost _every_ application for KDE has a K somewhere, while these iApps on Mac OS X are just a small set of multimedia-related applications, iTunes, iPhoto etc. It's not that all of Mac OS uses this "i".

Tom

Reply Score: 3

Klutter
by zizban on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:33 UTC
zizban
Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree KDE has become a mess; a total pile of K apps piled one on top of another. A deafult install of KDE must have over 50 K apps installed. It boggles my mind. There is need a lite version of KDE. Don't get me wrong, KDE is was my first DE in Linux (in the 1.x days of KDE) and it still has a place in my heart but KDE 3.x is just needs serious love.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Klutter
by macisaac on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:16 UTC in reply to "Klutter"
macisaac Member since:
2005-08-28

KDE, as in what the KDE project itself provides, is as complex and full-featured (or bloated if you prefer) or as light as the distributor that's compiling it for you chooses to make it. One of the really nice things about it, is how they provide there source tarballs in easily understandable divisions, with clear instructions on how to compile. The bare minimum is really just qt, kdelibs and kdebase. Add to that, the really nice feature of DO_NOT_COMPILE=foo,bar argument that you can prefix your configure with do enable to you to trim each of them to your liking, good stuff.

No, it isn't and likely never will be as light and thin as something like fluxbox or wmii, but that's not what it's meant to be.

Reply Score: 5

RE
by panzi on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:33 UTC
panzi
Member since:
2006-01-22

1. I don't know how MacOS X handle this, but I don't have Prblems with KDE and lacking coherence. After all, KDE is much more coherent as the average Windows Desktop, and thats all I can compare it with.

2. Yeah, that has confused me, too. It should be easyly fixable.

3. Never needed that bevore, so I can't say anything about it.

4. Yeah, that's a bit crapy. But who dose it right? Is RedHats minimalistic Packagemanager a good thing? Not for power users (which don't want to use the shell). Or is SuSEs Packagemanager better? Not for n00bs.

5. Never needed that. I use 'detaild view' in konqueror.

6. NEVER needed that! NEVER accidentally draged the toolbar.

7. I like KDE's naming scheme. It help's you to identify KDE-applications. The same with the 'g' or 'gnome-' for GNOME apps or 'x' for pure X11-apps. I like it. After all, because of this naming scheme it is possible to have both 'gvim' and 'kvim' installed. ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:07 UTC in reply to "RE"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah, that's a bit crapy. But who dose it right?

Synaptic.

Reply Score: 4

RE
by Sphinx on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:29 UTC in reply to "RE"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Nailed that one.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Point #4
by cyrilleberger on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:41 UTC
cyrilleberger
Member since:
2006-02-01

tags are a very powerfull method to find new programs, you select what you want to do (be a game or an office application, and scientific application). Unfortunately I tend to agree that there is still work to do for adept to be intuitive with tags, I often feel a little bit lost when looking for the right tag to add.

Oh, and in kubuntu, adept has an other UI which is accessible right from the "start" (or k call it however you want) menu which allow to select application from a much reduce list of applications (see http://i.turboimagehost.com/p/33774/adept-addremove.png.html ).

Reply Score: 3

coherence
by panzi on Sun 18th Jun 2006 15:42 UTC
panzi
Member since:
2006-01-22

about coherence:
does this have something to do with integration (I think is the word)?

I mean, KDE has DCOP (KDE4 has D-BUS), and almos every application uses it! It's so wonderfull scriptable! I love it. This is something, which lets a lot of kde apps talk to each other, in almost any programming/scripting language. What else has that (and uses it widely)?

Reply Score: 5

RE: coherence
by stestagg on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:49 UTC in reply to "coherence"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

I'm no expert but it sounds a like Apple's ActionScript to me.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: coherence
by panzi on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:09 UTC in reply to "RE: coherence"
panzi Member since:
2006-01-22

I'm no expert but it sounds a like Apple's ActionScript to me.
And I'm no expert at that matter, but isn't Apples ActionScript using KJS (KDEs JavaScript Implementation)?
Wait, isn't ActionScript a Flash thing? It's JavaScriptCore what I mean. Whatever, Apple is using a lot of KDEs code. (KHTML, KJS)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: coherence
by PowerMacX on Mon 19th Jun 2006 01:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: coherence"
PowerMacX Member since:
2005-11-06

about coherence:
does this have something to do with integration (I think is the word)?

I mean, KDE has DCOP (KDE4 has D-BUS), and almos every application uses it! It's so wonderfull scriptable! I love it. This is something, which lets a lot of kde apps talk to each other, in almost any programming/scripting language. What else has that (and uses it widely)?
- I'm no expert but it sounds a like Apple's ActionScript to me.
And I'm no expert at that matter, but isn't Apples ActionScript using KJS (KDEs JavaScript Implementation)?
Wait, isn't ActionScript a Flash thing? It's JavaScriptCore what I mean. Whatever, Apple is using a lot of KDEs code. (KHTML, KJS)


Neither of you are experts. ;)
It's called AppleScript and has nothing to do with JavaScript: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppleScript

As for the "Apple is using a lot of KDEs code (KTHML, KJS)" comment, why yes, for their (X)HTML core: WebCore/WebKit, which is under LGPL and publicly accessible (SVN & nightly builds) at: http://webkit.opendarwin.org/ ("The WebKit Open Source Project") where they clearly acknowledge KDE origins.

Now, back to the original topic DCOP vs. AppleScript: judging from KDE's page on the subject, at http://developer.kde.org/documentation/other/dcop.html
it seems that it is lower level, more of a interprocess communication protocol, in that case I think it would be better to compare it to Apple Events, not AppleScript: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_events

Reply Score: 2

RE: coherence
by abraxas on Mon 19th Jun 2006 14:03 UTC in reply to "coherence"
abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

I mean, KDE has DCOP (KDE4 has D-BUS), and almos every application uses it! It's so wonderfull scriptable! I love it. This is something, which lets a lot of kde apps talk to each other, in almost any programming/scripting language. What else has that (and uses it widely)?

DBUS has been around for a little bit now and is actually an option in many GNOME applications. Before that GNOME had (and to some extent still has) bonobo. DBUS was meant to be a lightweight desktop agnostic replacement for bonobo/DCOP.

Reply Score: 0

KLaptop IS a mess, but...
by piquadrat on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:04 UTC
piquadrat
Member since:
2005-11-26

...there's a solution: KPowersave. It's out of SuSE's lab AFAIK, but I hope it will replace KLaptop in vanilla KDE4 (probabely too much of a change for a bugfix release like 3.5.4).

http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php?content=29295

Reply Score: 2

Non of this applies to me much...
by mmarshall on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:16 UTC
mmarshall
Member since:
2005-07-12

1)

I'm not sure where I stand on this. On one hand, GNOME feels much more 'one'. Then again, the applications I use most (Kate, Konqueror, Kmail, Akregtor) feel very coherent with KDE. At the very least they all work great with kioslaves. I never could find a good editor that worked with GnomeVFS. (not even gedit, but that back with GNOME 2.8, I haven't tried lately.)

About Amarok, it's not part of KDE. It's more of a music player that just happens to use KDE.

2) Agreed, although I haven't seen this since I started using arch.

3) Much agreed. But I'm pretty sure klaptop is going to be replaced by something else.

4) I've never seen this program, but this is hardly a problem with KDE, but with kubuntu. But yeah, it looks like it could use some maturing ;)

5) I like having the configuration options ;) (Although KControl could use some work. I'm surprised you didn't mention that.)

About the desktop icons, I just disable them. My REAL desktop is cluttered enough, why should virtual desktop be cluttered as well?

6) It's been there since 3.5. I think they are even locked by default.

7) If this makes your list of seven, I think KDE is doing pretty well ;) I'm honestly not sure what to think of it.


I'm really surprised that you didn't mention arts. That is probably the biggest complaint I have with KDE. Hopefully Phonon will be better.

MWM

Reply Score: 5

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

5) I like having the configuration options ;) (Although KControl could use some work. I'm surprised you didn't mention that.)

Kubuntu uses that slimmed-down version of Kcontrol.

6) It's been there since 3.5. I think they are even locked by default.

Then tell me where it is.

7) If this makes your list of seven, I think KDE is doing pretty well ;) I'm honestly not sure what to think of it.

Application names are important, they lend recognisability. So yes, having some well-thought out names makes more sense than just dump 'k' in front of everything.

I'm really surprised that you didn't mention arts.

I have an expensive hi-fi set. I don't use my computer for music.

Reply Score: 1

Hardly a disaster
by moleskine on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:29 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

The points picked out are fairly minor so I take it that KDE scores fairly high marks on the Holwerda scale? Some of the criticisms are distro-specific, too. I don't have the kdesu or adept issues here on SuSE, for example.

The point about "coherence" has a lot more weight. I've always been a little annoyed at KDE's failure to stick to a strict "best of breed" app install and really ensure that those apps are well intregated, polished and bug-free. Too often, you get a pile of small apps higgle-piggle plus kitchen sink as well. Rightly or wrongly, the impression given is that Gnome has a much better grip on Q&A these days.

OTOH, it is possible to take "coherence" too far. I don't really use KDE. I use Kmail/Kontact, Amarok, Digikam, Kate, Konqueror, Kopete, etc. I have found each of those apps distinctly superior to their Gnome equivalents. So I use KDE because of its apps; I don't use the apps because of KDE.

Reply Score: 5

Agree
by quenturi on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:34 UTC
quenturi
Member since:
2006-04-10

I'm a kde user and I agree 200% with all points the author mentionned.

Hopefully KDE4 will change all that for good.

Reply Score: 2

Disagree: KDE does not lack coherency
by jbauer on Sun 18th Jun 2006 16:48 UTC
jbauer
Member since:
2005-07-06

You say KDE lacks coherence. You say to take Kopete as an example but you don't mention a single thing why Kopete is not integrated with the rest of the KDE system. Well, I can send a file to a contact just dragging and dropping it on the chat window, or by right-clicking in Konqueror. You can even see a contact's status on Kontact, or start a chat with him.

And speaking of Amarok, you can even send a message to your contact on Kopete telling him which song are you listening to. Not that it is that incredibily useful, but it illustrates my point. You can also tell Amarok to burn a CD using K3B. You can add audio files to the playlist dropping them from Konqueror on the Amarok's icon on the tray. You can even use Amarok as a sidebar in Konqueror!

These are examples just on the top of my head... every resonably mature KDE program uses KDE's common facilities: for opening files, for printing, for checking spelling, for communication and scripting(DCOP)... It's not perfect of course but I really think if KDE has succedeed in something has been in creating the feel of a true desktop. I could not disagree more with you on this point.

Reply Score: 5

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You just don't get it. You equate 'coherence' with 'integration', and while integration is a part of coherence, it is not the same. Just use the Mac or BeOS/Zeta for a while, and see what coherence actually means. It is very difficult to explain (as mentioned in the column).

Reply Score: 1

siride Member since:
2006-01-02

I read you're article and KDE is, by your definition, still coherent. I think you are getting thrown off by the larger more stand-alone apps like Amarok. Amarok isn't meant to be part of the KDE core. It's not even distributed in one of the standard KDE packages like kdemultimedia. You need to be looking at the more basic apps: the file-manager, the control center, the pdf viewer, image viewers, etc. These are part of the desktop proper. They are also coherent and integrated. They make sense. I don't even think about them because they just work and they do what they should. I click on a picture in konqueror and I see a picture. Sure it's a separate app, but it's hard to tell. It just makes sense. So I don't really see your problem with coherence. I think it's just fashionable call KDE incoherent because it's more mature than GNOME (yes, I suppose you can get a better handle on GNOME than KDE, but GNOME has so much less, so it's really an illusion of simplicity).

Reply Score: 5

Jesuspower Member since:
2006-01-28

I think tthat he was reffering to the way things are slapped together in KDE more often than other DE's.
Example: some programs dont respect global settings for button placements. There are some items that always appear in different locations.
Weird things happen when you place the menubar at the top of the screen sometimes: many apps position themselves there, underneath it. Change your homepage in Konqueror. Try to make konqueror behave nicely while opening files in a new window by default (MacOS X has that problem also). The desktop feels seperate from the rest of the DE.

With gnome and xfce, i find myself spending less time getting items where I want them, and more time working.
Speaking of which, i am doing an fschk off a live cd while typing this, and the dumb taskbar in gnome is changing sizes. hehe.

Reply Score: 2

leos Member since:
2005-09-21

You equate 'coherence' with 'integration', and while integration is a part of coherence, it is not the same.

I guess I don't get it. Someone must know what exactly constitutes coherence. I think it's the combination of consistency, integration, and simplicity, but you seem to disagree. I think KDE has better consistency and integration that any other environment I've used. The simplicity is lacking a bit, perhaps that is where it fails on the coherence front. Who knows, it doesn't bother me in the slightest.

I have used Mac OS X (extensively) and BeOS (shortly). I found OS X was ok but frustrating because of its "one size fits all" policy. It just didn't work optimally for me.

Reply Score: 5

segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

You just don't get it. You equate 'coherence' with 'integration', and while integration is a part of coherence, it is not the same.

Hmmmm. Integration is a very important, and tangible, part of coherence. The other parts of coherence can be about naming, being part of the same suite (Office suite etc). All apps lack coherence in some way with their underlying desktop environment, some more than others, and certainly far worse than KDE applications. I mean, how can anyone think that Microsoft Office is coherent when its user interface is completely different from other Windows applications and the interfaces are sometimes different even between the apps? You said it yourself last week. How can OS X's applications be coherent and look as if they are part of something greater when they all use different themes?

You also equate coherence directly with integration as an example:

The MacOS, for instance, has a high level of coherency because all the applications integrate very well with the operating system as a whole.

iTunes, iPhoto, the Finder, Address Book, Mail.app; they are all intertwined with one another, they relate to eachother, as well as to the operating system itself

KDE has a whole damn, clearly defined, framework and layer for making this happen in kdelibs and the services it provides, and more so than a Mac. It's pretty trivial to make a KDE app part of a larger whole through DCOP and KParts and they are extremely well used throughout KDE. Every time you look at something it almost certainly inherits from the same place and you get the feeling "Ah, I've seen this before".

Integration doesn't mean coherence, but it's a good 90% of it, and it certainly is from your definition. There are certainly, far, far, far better examples of a lack of coherence than KDE applications.

Reply Score: 5

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Typical Apple zealot response to criticism.

And now I'm an Apple zealot?

*sigh*

Reply Score: 1

no war
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:10 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

No KDE vs. GNOME war, please. This is about KDE. Posts have been modded down to -5 accordingly. Don't reply to this post, it will get modded down too.

Go on, discuss KDE.

Reply Score: 1

KDE must be doing a good thing
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:21 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

...if the most people can complain about is a vague impression of a lack of "coherency" and the namin scheme of applications.

Seriously, I was expecting a lot worse from Thom on this one. I guess KDE is an excellent DE.

I do agree that Adept (hey, no "K" here...) is an usability mess. That's why I continue to use Synaptic on my Kubuntu laptop.

As far as klaptop goes, there's also kpowersave which has a (marginally) better interface. Although if you use it make sure that it handles your laptop fan properly.

Here's hoping that the (few) criticisms made by Thom are picked up by the KDE developers!

Reply Score: 5

RE: Klutter
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:23 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

You obviously haven't tried Kubuntu: a default install gets you relatively few applications installed, and the selection is quite well thought out.

Do yourself a favor and try the Kubuntu Desktop (Live) CD. You'll be pleasantly surprised and realize that there's no need for SimpleKDE.

Reply Score: 3

Just one problem
by kernelpanicked on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:25 UTC
kernelpanicked
Member since:
2006-02-01

While I agree with just about everything Thom said in this little rant, hey I can't stand KDE as much as the next guy, there is one little issue that pisses me off. If you'll notice, one of the screenshots is now not available because it was linked from imageshack. Thom, if you're going to use needlessly large images in your articles, at least have the decency to put it on your own server and pay for your own bandwidth.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Just one problem
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:29 UTC in reply to "Just one problem"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Thom, if you're going to use needlessly large images in your articles, at least have the decency to put it on your own server and pay for your own bandwidth.

That was a temporary solution as KDE's/Konqueror ftp support was being a major bitch (so I guess I need to add a point to the article). I did not have the time to fix it until a minute ago (no, I don't sit in front of my computer all day to work on OSNews).

Edited 2006-06-18 17:31

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Just one problem
by Jesuspower on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Just one problem"
Jesuspower Member since:
2006-01-28

haha, i remeber that! It was when i started doing web development that i switched away from KDE.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Just one problem
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:31 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Before you add ftp support as a negative point, perhaps you should make sure that the problem is with Konqueror. I use the ftp kio_slave extensively, and I've never had a problem which wasn't ISP (or firewall) related...

Edited 2006-06-18 17:31

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Just one problem
by rubber on Sun 25th Jun 2006 15:09 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Just one problem"
rubber Member since:
2006-05-31

That's the problem with a lot of his comments. They get a negative point, because it's a problem for him, but that does not necessarily mean that it's a problem for the majority of users.

Reply Score: 1

The "K" names suck
by Joe User on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:47 UTC
Joe User
Member since:
2005-06-29

I don't like the "K" names either. Should be more creative. Koffice, Ksnapshot, KFreeSpace, etc... It doesn't cut it. You should rename all of those.

Reply Score: 1

RE: The "K" names suck
by lpotter on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:13 UTC in reply to "The "K" names suck"
lpotter Member since:
2005-12-01

What about all those "G" named Gnome applications? Or how about all those "X" named X applications? Don't forget, its not Linux, but its GNU/Linux.

KDE (and then GNOME) was simply going on the X tradition of naming applications with an 'X' so you could instantly tell that is was not a console application.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: The "K" names suck
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:18 UTC in reply to "RE: The "K" names suck"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What about all those "G" named Gnome applications? Or how about all those "X" named X applications?

Irrelevant. We are discussing KDE, not GNOME.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The "K" names suck
by kolmyo on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: The "K" names suck"
kolmyo Member since:
2005-07-11

"What about all those "G" named Gnome applications? Or how about all those "X" named X applications?

Irrelevant. We are discussing KDE, not GNOME."

---

"Fascism is better than democracy since in democracy there's poverty.

There's poverty in fascist system also!

Irrelevant, we are discussing democracy."

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: The "K" names suck
by NxStY on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The "K" names suck"
NxStY Member since:
2005-11-12

A problem in KDE isn't less of a problem just because gnome shares it. So yes, the names of gnome apps are irrelevant as we're discussing KDE.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: The "K" names suck
by lpotter on Mon 19th Jun 2006 01:16 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The "K" names suck"
lpotter Member since:
2005-12-01

No, we are discussing the 3rd installment of a 3 part article, the first of which is about Gnome, which never mentions the "G" naming convention in Gnome as something that "sucks", but it does mention the "K" naming convention of Kde.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: The "K" names suck
by NxStY on Mon 19th Jun 2006 08:24 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: The "K" names suck"
NxStY Member since:
2005-11-12

Well of course it wasn't mentioned because it's not such a problem in gnome. Gnome apps are usually named in three ways.

System apps are usually named gnome-foo or gnome-foo-bar. (gnome-terminal, gnome-power-manager etc.)

User apps are usually have ordinary names. (nautilus, evolution, epiphany)

Some other apps, like the games, have a g, gn or gno in the beginning, though they still form valid words.

It's nothing like the K-mess of KDE.

Reply Score: 2

v Icons are too big
by Joe User on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:48 UTC
RE: Icons are too big
by Ascay on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:13 UTC in reply to "Icons are too big"
Ascay Member since:
2005-07-11

Then just use a smaller size in the settings. Where's the problem?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Icons are too big
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:46 UTC in reply to "Icons are too big"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

You've got to be kidding me. I can only hope you're not a GNOME user, otherwise this would be the biggest piece of hypocrisy in this whole debate. Only GNOME has huge toolbars and poor layout (to the point that I feel like I'm using 800x600 again, even though my screen has a resolution of 1400x1050). KDE and its themes make much better use of screen real estate. I doubt it'll ever be fixed in GNOME given that users supposedly can't handle reasonable layout...or features.

Reply Score: 2

RE: The "K" names suck
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:49 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

The question is: would you refrain from using a program just because of its name? If so, think about what that means...

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: The "K" names suck
by Jesuspower on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:55 UTC in reply to "RE: The "K" names suck"
Jesuspower Member since:
2006-01-28

no, but a very good reason to stop using an environment is when it beats you over the head so much, telling you that you are using KDE, even when you know that you are using KDE.
Its annoying, and distracting.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Icons are too big
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:50 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

You do know you can make them smaller, right?

Reply Score: 1

No app is an island
by atsureki on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:53 UTC
atsureki
Member since:
2006-03-12

I wish KDE were every-app-for-itself. Can you install Kopete without those monsters kdelibs and kdebase, or even just outside of the kdeapps package? Maybe it's just Portage, but whenever I've tried to install one KDE app, it wanted to bring all its friends. The reverse has also been a problem. I don't want every program that comes with a KDE desktop.

Reply Score: 2

RE: No app is an island
by leos on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:19 UTC in reply to "No app is an island"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Can you install Kopete without those monsters kdelibs and kdebase

No. Look, either you want integration or you want light and small. Code reuse and integration with other apps doesn't come for free.

or even just outside of the kdeapps package?

This is a problem with how it was packaged. I can install kopete on its own just fine in Debian/Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: No app is an island
by atsureki on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:05 UTC in reply to "RE: No app is an island"
atsureki Member since:
2006-03-12

I guess I'm not explaining this quite right. I like integration, and I like code and lib reuse. The latter is what makes Linux Linux. But with KDE, libs for any given KDE app only seem to be of any use for other KDE apps. I don't mind that KDE is physically large, but I hate how it seems to act like its own operating system. It has its own network config, its own power management, and other things that should really be system-wide, or are even taken care of by an already superior program (xscreensaver-demo vs. kscreensaver), and the fact that it provides these things leads to its apps depending on them (think aRts.) KDE has accomplished great things for the Linux desktop, so I don't want to come off as completely unappreciative, but I'd be much more appreciative if they'd done it in a way that allows more apps completely outside of KDE to take advantage of their technology.

Piping stdout to stdin never required massive libraries or the use or even presence of a specific shell. It's a system-wide function that anyone can use. Similar concepts in DEs should not be exclusive to the realm of radical, highly experimental alpha projects. It should be standard operational procedure. If a feature is too quick, it's also too dirty. That's a tradeoff I don't want.

Reply Score: 1

RE: No app is an island
by smitty on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:31 UTC in reply to "No app is an island"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Check out this page: http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/kde-split-ebuilds.xml

Basically, you need to uninstall your old kde packages, and then reinstall using the newer split ebuilds.

Reply Score: 2

RE: No app is an island
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:49 UTC in reply to "No app is an island"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

How about you buy a computer that was made after 1998 so that you have enough hard-drive space to install 100 megabytes of basic KDE?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: K-Names
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:55 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Apple apps usually have good names; finder (find files), iTunes (play tunes), iPhoto (manage photos).

KDE apps usually doesn't; Konqueror, K3B, Kopete etc.


Wow. Way to pick and choose examples to support your argument!

What about: kedit, kstars, kcalc, kalarm, kfilereplace, knetworkmanager, kwifimanager, kword, konversation...

Seriously, though...who cares about what an app is named? The only thing that matters is whether it helps me do what I want to do. Everything else is cosmetic.

The more people harp on this, the more I realize that KDE3 has very few real issues.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: K-Names
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:59 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: K-Names"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Seriously, though...who cares about what an app is named? The only thing that matters is whether it helps me do what I want to do. Everything else is cosmetic.

Because an app's name is what you use to identify taskbar entries, menu launchers, etc. etc. etc. I guess you'd name your kids One, Two, Three? Because hey, that's functional, and even though it looks stupid, who cares? It's all cosmetics!

Indeed, it is all cosmetics. Cosmetics might not matter to you, as a geek, but to me, it does matter. And seeing the stupid 'k' EVERWHERE in KDE can really, and then I mean REALLY, piss me off.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: K-Names
by el3ktro on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:30 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: K-Names"
el3ktro Member since:
2006-01-10

100% ack

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: K-Names
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:12 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: K-Names"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

I guess you'd name your kids One, Two, Three? Because hey, that's functional, and even though it looks stupid, who cares? It's all cosmetics!

Quite OT... but, in rural Italy, it was commonplace.
There were many families with brothers named Primo, Secondo,Terzo (that is First, Second, Third...) and so on. I remember of an old man called Settimo (Seventh) who was my neighbour.

And seeing the stupid 'k' EVERWHERE in KDE can really, and then I mean REALLY, piss me off.

Well,it's your taste. I hate the brown colour of Ubuntu's Gnome, but hey, it's not Ubuntu's fault. It's just me that happens to dislike brown.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: K-Names
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:14 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: K-Names"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Quite OT... but, in rural Italy, it was commonplace.

Stems from the Roman times. Romans did it too.

Well,it's your taste.

Yes, as is every complaint in this series ;) .

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: K-Names
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:46 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: K-Names"
devurandom Member since:
2005-07-06

Well,it's your taste.

Yes, as is every complaint in this series ;) .


Well, I like your "rants", but I suggest you could do a better work if you split things that are purely aesthetic (like K-names) from things that are meaningful functional/usability issues (Adept interface, for example). You're welcome to rant on both, but you could split them just to make things clear and to make people say "ok, that's Thom taste, let's talk about real issues".
:)

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: K-Names
by TheBadger on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:15 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: K-Names"
TheBadger Member since:
2005-11-14

On my Kubuntu Hoary menu: "Package Manager (kynaptic)", "Audio Player (amaroK)", "Instant Messenger (kopete)". Sure the actual application names are quirky, but they're not all you have to go on.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: The "K" names suck
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 17:58 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

no, but a very good reason to stop using an environment is when it beats you over the head so much, telling you that you are using KDE, even when you know that you are using KDE.

So it does not matter if apps are good, they have to have names that please you as well? That makes absolutely no sense. Basically you're saying that style is more important than substance.

Its annoying, and distracting.

Whaaaa? How much time do you spend looking at an app name? Also, if it really irritates you, change the menu so it displays short descriptions instead of app names (it's in the Kicker options).

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: The "K" names suck
by el3ktro on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: The "K" names suck"
el3ktro Member since:
2006-01-10

No he didn't say that. You don't only look at an apps name when you launch it, you also look at it in the taskbar, in the titlebar etc. And especially for new users it's important to have app names which actually tell you what this app is doing.

I would't mind about this K so much if it at least had a consistent naming scheme. Why for example is the contact application called "Kontact", but the control center is called "Kcontrol" instead of "Kontrol". This just makes no sense and looks stupid, sorry.

Tom

Reply Score: 1

RE: No app is an island
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:00 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

That's more of a distro issue (though I imagine you DO need kdelibs). Kubuntu lets you install individual KDE apps without adding everything plus the kitchen sink (which has to "Ks" in it, incidentally... :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: No app is an island
by Ascay on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:20 UTC in reply to "RE: No app is an island"
Ascay Member since:
2005-07-11

> without adding everything plus the kitchen sink
> (which has to "Ks" in it, incidentally... :-)

No, only one:

http://www.opensync.org/wiki/kitchensync

;)

Reply Score: 2

Names - why care?
by mserms on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:04 UTC
mserms
Member since:
2005-07-14

How on earth can so many people get "annoyed" by the name of some applications?

I mean, really, it's just not a big deal. I'm too occupied actually using applications to give a toss what they are called.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: K-Names
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:07 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

I find the tone of your post a bit insulting, Thom. I don't like how you casually call me a geek. And for your information, as a video game designer, I have spent a LOT more time designing UIs, attending focus group tests and worrying about user perception and comprehension than you seem to be giving me credit for.

Meanwhile, comparing the naming of human beings to programs is, well, not a very smart analogy to make. In fact, it's bordering on the ridiculous.

It IS cosmetics, which means that after using it for a short time you don't notice it anymore. If something like this pisses you off that much, then maybe it's time for a little introspection.

Anyway, it confirms to me that your criticism of KDE was indeed limited to a few precise issues, and the rest was vague and/or cosmetic.

Reply Score: 5

RE[7]: K-Names
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:13 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: K-Names"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Meanwhile, comparing the naming of human beings to programs is, well, not a very smart analogy to make. In fact, it's bordering on the ridiculous.

As is your dismissal of a problem solely because you do not experience the problem. It reminds me a lot of that classic remark in the movie "Kids", in which a carachter says he does not believe AIDS exists, simply because he does not know anyone who has AIDS.

It IS cosmetics, which means that after using it for a short time you don't notice it anymore. If something like this pisses you off that much, then maybe it's time for a little introspection.

Please, do not order me to introspect. Me, including many others, find the silly naming of applications a huge annoyance. Accept it. Disagree with it all you want, that's fine; but don't deny the existance of problems just because you do not experience the same problem.

Anyway, it confirms to me that your criticism of KDE was indeed limited to a few precise issues, and the rest was vague and/or cosmetic.

*sigh*. Why do I even bother. I'll await the reply of more eloquent folks like Aaron Seigo (see Aaron, I spelt your name right in one go!).

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: K-Names
by smitty on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:22 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: K-Names"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Well, I also find it pretty ridiculous how worked up people get about the stupid k names. Why does anyone care about this?

But, since it always seems to come up I suppose I'd support changing them. It's not like I see any pressing need to keep them the same either.

Am I right that the problem here is that everything has a k in it? So it would be better if only half the apps had one, like the i in OSX? It seems less consistent to me, but then the k never bothered me either.

Reply Score: 4

RE[9]: K-Names
by D3M0N on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE[8]: K-Names"
D3M0N Member since:
2005-07-09

The "iApps" in OS X are used by Apple ... well only for there "iLife" applications. It's a bundled suite of apps, so it makes perfect sense. iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, iTunes, iChat, and... well Garage Band, which is a perfect name IMO. It also went with Apple's marketing of the iMacs and iBooks.

The KApps, or rather AppsK or ApKs seem to just been as part of the name.. just because its KDE. It's not necessary. It doesn't follow any type of pattern at all.

Edited 2006-06-18 18:53

Reply Score: 1

RE[10]: K-Names
by siride on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:03 UTC in reply to "RE[9]: K-Names"
siride Member since:
2006-01-02

Again, I'd like somebody to explain why these names have to follow a pattern. This whole anti-K-name argument seems to me to be a fake argument produced by people who just don't like KDE to begin with and will find anything they can against it.

Reply Score: 5

RE[11]: K-Names
by D3M0N on Mon 19th Jun 2006 06:32 UTC in reply to "RE[10]: K-Names"
D3M0N Member since:
2005-07-09

As for why the names should follow a pattern? Consistency. Consistency is key in an interface. It is *just* an application name, but you don't see Apple just randomly throwing in an "i" where they can. As someone pointed out there isn't an iSafari, iAddressBook. Why can't you just call an application "Address Book"? KAddressBook, KCalc. This isn't just related to KDE - but Gnome and X apps too. For me at least. Just come up with something more discriptive and creative! It looks amateurish in my opinion have XCalc... KCalc, GCalc...

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: K-Names
by leos on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:47 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: K-Names"
leos Member since:
2005-09-21

Please, do not order me to introspect. Me, including many others, find the silly naming of applications a huge annoyance. Accept it.

Ok, done.

Disagree with it all you want

Also done.

Now, more importantly, in your opinion, what is a good name for an application? And I don't want some wishy washy explanation about something which subtly conveys the use of the application while still being memorable and easy to pronounce. I want a real example. Which open source project out there has a good name?

Here're a few that I think are good (biased towards KDE because those are the apps I use more often):
kwrite, kmix, kword, kpowersave, gnumeric, gnomemeeting (oops!), inkscape, ktorrent etc

With all of those apps, you immediately know which toolkit/desktop they were written for (except for inkscape), and you have a pretty good idea of what they do. kwrite? Must be for writing something, probably a text editor.

The next group of names are bad but acceptable. These are the easy to pronounce ones that have no meaning. In my opinion these names should only be used for big flagship applications so the user doesn't have to memorize a weird name for every app on the system. For example:
Ekiga - this is the new name for gnomemeeting. They went from something completely clear to something completely obtuse. Ekiga means nothing to anyone.

Consider kpdf vs evince. Now I don't think of a PDF viewer as a major app, so why bother with a stupid name like that? Just make it clear from the name what the app is good for. Yes I realize that evince will also display other formats than pdf so it's not entirely accurate to call it gpdf, but most people don't ever view PS or DVI files so it's a moot point. You could always call it gview.

Now the horrible names. I can only think of one at the moment, and that is k3b. Not only is it not a word that a normal person can speak, it also doesn't mean anything that I can tell, and it's hard to type!
k3b, the KDE 3 Burner? Who knows, it's not intuitive in any case.

Why not just call it KBurner or KBurn or BurnIt or whatever. Anything is better than k3b.

/rant over.

Reply Score: 5

RE[9]: K-Names
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:51 UTC in reply to "RE[8]: K-Names"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Good open-source application names? Mmmm, I find the names the various KDE4 projects are adopting quite good.

However, one of the best, if not THE best application name EVER, is of course Apple's GarageBand. That name so perfectly entails the program's intended purpose, without it sounding annoying or pedantic. It is perfect.

Reply Score: 1

RE[10]: K-Names
by Alex Forster on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:35 UTC in reply to "RE[9]: K-Names"
Alex Forster Member since:
2005-08-12

I felt the same way about Rendezvous. Unfortunately, France sued apple. Or something. Regardless, it's not Rendezvous anymore.

Reply Score: 1

RE[9]: K-Names
by progster on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE[8]: K-Names"
progster Member since:
2005-07-27

Don't you see that it's terribly annoying when you open a menu and ALL (or well almost all) entries start with K ? It makes it a lot harder to quickly select the right app... As someone who is so experienced with UI's you should see the problem I mean, no?

Reply Score: 2

RE[8]: K-Names
by Alex Forster on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:03 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: K-Names"
Alex Forster Member since:
2005-08-12

*sigh*. Why do I even bother. I'll await the reply of more eloquent folks like Aaron Seigo (see Aaron, I spelt your name right in one go!).

You were just itching to fit that name in somewhere, eh?

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: K-Names
by Morin on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:37 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: K-Names"
Morin Member since:
2005-12-31

> It IS cosmetics, which means that after using it for a
> short time you don't notice it anymore.

This only happens if you use said feature all the time. As a counter-example, I have a Mac and I use Cyberduck for FTP. More than once I tried to remember that damn name because it says less than nothing about the application. It's a minor annoyance (exactly since I'm not using it often), but when I do use it then it completely distracts me from anything else I was really doing. On top of that, it does so for no good reason.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Non of this applies to me much...
by mmarshall on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:20 UTC
mmarshall
Member since:
2005-07-12

> > 6) It's been there since 3.5. I think they are even locked by default.

> Then tell me where it is.

In the panel context menu. Right click somewhere in the panel where you don't have an applet (like to the right of the taskbar) and choose 'Lock Panels'. (Or click on that little arrow button that's on all of those annoying applet handles.) But perhaps Kubuntu removed it?

> I have an expensive hi-fi set. I don't use my computer for music.

I don't either, but I do use sound for video clips and VoIP. The best fix I have found for arts is to Kill it and Keep it Killed!

Anyway, I did enjoy article. You hit on things that are a concern for many people.

At first I thought it was about just KDE, so I didn't like seeing so much kubuntu stuff, but I see now you explicitly said "Kubuntu's KDE". Heh

MWM

Reply Score: 1

RE[8]: K-Names
by mserms on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:26 UTC
mserms
Member since:
2005-07-14

"Please, do not order me to introspect."

You weren't ordered to introspect. It was suggested that if you're bothered by the naming scheme, then it <em>may be</em> time to introspect.

I order you to read posts properly!

Edit: forgot emphasis.

Edited 2006-06-18 18:27

Reply Score: 3

RE[8]: K-Names
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:26 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

As is your dismissal of a problem solely because you do not experience the problem.

I did not dismiss the problem, I said it was a cosmetic issue, which means it is a minor issue.

It reminds me a lot of that classic remark in the movie "Kids", in which a carachter says he does not believe AIDS exists, simply because he does not know anyone who has AIDS.

That's another poor analogy, Thom (and slightly offensive to people who have lost someone they know to AIDS...which is pretty much everyone these days.) You're comparing not caring about a naming scheme, something that has an infinitesimal impact on someone's life, with being oblivious to a disease that kills millions. For shame.

Please, do not order me to introspect.

Where did I order you to do anything? Oh, right, nowhere. I merely suggested that if cosmetic issues can drive you mad, then maybe a little anger management is in order, that's all.

Me, including many others, find the silly naming of applications a huge annoyance. Accept it. Disagree with it all you want, that's fine; but don't deny the existance of problems just because you do not experience the same problem.

I don't deny that some people are apparently very annoyed by this. Again, I don't deny that the issue exist, despite what you're trying to make me say. At the same time, I am free to express my opinion that this is a ridiculous issue to get upset about.

As I said earlier, if it irks you that much, just change the menu to "Description" instead of "Name".

*sigh*. Why do I even bother. I'll await the reply of more eloquent folks like Aaron Seigo (see Aaron, I spelt your name right in one go!).

Again, nice to see how you manage to squeeze in one last swipe at me before giving up trying to disprove what I said, i.e. that your criticism (which I thought was valid) contained few critical issues, but mostly vague (coherency) and cosmetic (naming scheme) problems.

Before you go and attack me again, please realize that I'm not saying these issues should not be fixed; of course they should be fixed! But the fact that they are relatively minor and/or cosmetic annoyances is testimony to the overall quality of KDE version 3.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: No app is an island
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:31 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Well, I guess that's *one* app for which they shouldn't change the name... :-)

Reply Score: 1

Surface Details
by elsewhere on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:31 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

I agree with some of the posts that implied all these complaints are cosmestic. I think that's an important point.

Sure, things like kcontrol are a bit of a monster when it comes to finding configuration settings (which Kubuntu attempted to address with System Settings). Everything is configurable to the nth degree, which can make things confusing.

Of course the counter to that is that it is by design, since Kiosk allows you to configure and lockdown a desktop right to the point of determining which menu options a user has available. Over kill for a single user, but valuable for people deploying KDE particularly in net cafe or POS/Retail type settings.

The naming scheme, come on. Yes, it's lame but it has it's roots in a different time. But it's ridiculous to say that it impedes useability because the name != function of the app. Nautilus? Safari? Firefox? GIMP? Epiphany? Banshee? How do those help a user understand what the application does?

Desktop clutter? Taskbar settings? Those are default settings. If they're an issue, they're easy enough to change. A valid criticism, maybe, but it's stretching.

The "useability" issues are being addressed by the KDE team. There are groups designated specifically for interface design and maintaining a level of consistency. From naming to configuration to default settings, KDE4 is taking a tear-down/rebuild approach.

But I think what's really important is that none of this really addressed functionality deficiencies. Because that's where KDE shines IMHO. The modular approach is a strength.

People like to complain Konqueror is bloated. Konqueror isn't bloated. It's an empty wrapper for kparts and kio-slaves. Konqueror can be a web browser, it can be a file browser, it can be a control panel, it can be a document viewer, it can do ftp etc. And that kio-slave functionality extends to the filepicker, so that virtually *any* KDE app can open or save files to unmounted shares, ftp/fish sites, a beagle search list etc.

Core components are accessible to other applications. Kopete pulling from the Address Book for contacts. Kontact building a meta application by simply integrating components from mail, organizer, addressbook etc.

It's a very cool architecture. Yes, maybe it flies in the face of one-app/one-function but I expect integration from a DE, otherwise I'd stick to command line or a light-weight window manager.

I think what's really important to point out is that the complaints about KDE are interface related, and while not invalid, it's certainly a hell of a lot easier to address interface problems than it is to add cohesiveness and integration to a DE that is lacking it. KDE4 will be very interesting.

Reply Score: 5

Agree With Some, But Not Others
by segedunum on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:34 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

I agree with a lot of the stuff in there, particularly about the Adept front-end and the awful ever present root password dialogue, but not others. It just looks as if some space needed to be filled in:

And that is what I miss when using KDE. It has more of a "each project for itself" mentality, which are then bolted together before release date to form the K Desktop Environment.

I get the exact opposite impression more than any other Unix desktop environment I've ever used. You can see that a KDE application is built on top of kdebase, kdelibs etc. You can see from the UI layout, the settings, the way Kopete works with Kontact and everything about it that there is a common base being inherited from. In something like Gnome you always feel that applications, particular like GAIM, are pushed to you as Gnome applications when it's pretty clear that they are not when you use them. Integration is bunged on as an afterthought through some 'bindings' that end up barely working.

It does not feel as if it is part of a greater whole; whereas Gaim integrates much better with the rest of GNOME

Hmmmm. Kopete and Kontact integration? GAIM tries to integrate with the rest of what is called Gnome, but it falls pretty short. Pretty bad example I think. The problem is something like Gnome has no real infrastructure for making this happen in a universal and predictable way, in the way KDE apps use DCOP and now DBUS for communication, and it shows. The underlying framework is something users never see directly, but it does come out.

The climax of this is Amarok; it even has its own live CD.

Hmmmm. We're talking about the coherency of Amarok as an application within KDE, not that there is an Amarok live cd you can try out.

KDE's root password dialog needs some love.

It's always looked pretty awful.

KDE features a very confusing and incomprehensible power management configuration screen (klaptop).

The laptop modules were an absolute disaster. You got modules in there even if you weren't running a particular kind of laptop, and the UIs were awful. It does seem that the penny has dropped with this and something will be done about it.

Kubuntu's front-end to apt, adept, is another one of those graphical disasters.

Indeed it is. I first started using the Adept front-end a few weeks ago, and even though I am presented with awful UIs almost daily I had to ask myself the question "What do I do here and where on Earth do I start" about ten times before I could work out how to even remotely use it.

It's damn awful, but it really didn't need to be. A bit of UI thought is the easy bit. They could even have just lifted YaST's front end, or even ported YaST to Kubuntu. Not that YaST is great from a UI point of view, but it's much better than that.

Last but not least: get a decent naming scheme. Seriously. K this, K that; just... Don't. Really. I suggest a global renaming of KDE applications into normal, k-less names.

Yer, I mean who'd get anywhere with a naming scheme like that? iChat, iTunes, iPhoto.... I mean, OS X should be called iOS or iX shouldn't it? And what does that 'i' stand for anyway? And Evolution. Is that a Gnome application, or is it some application for teaching Darwin's theory?

Reply Score: 5

yup
by joesnow on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:53 UTC
joesnow
Member since:
2006-02-09

I agree on everything except the K-names.
I don't use KDE cuz it seems like it has like 2-3 different configuration sets for everything, and they all do it differently, and the main K ones don't always work when others do... it was just frustrating to me.

But I think primarily my issue w/ KDE is, how static the main menu is. Yes you can probably make it whatever you please, but really how? I mean taking headings off, rearranging EVERYthing in the main menu, how? Maybe I want it to look like a Gnome menu, but be in the K environment, that'd be great, but the ultimately configurable DE doesn't have a thorough enough user-configurable menu.

Reply Score: 1

RE: yup
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 18th Jun 2006 18:56 UTC in reply to "yup"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

but the ultimately configurable DE doesn't have a thorough enough user-configurable menu.

Huh? I find the KDE menu editor (I'd hazard a guess... Kmenu-editor?) to be really, really powerful. Ok, it's just as much a mess as adept or the power control panels, but still.

Edited 2006-06-18 18:56

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: yup
by joesnow on Wed 21st Jun 2006 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE: yup"
joesnow Member since:
2006-02-09

yea what i wrote merits a good "huh?" from myself even lol

what i mean is, some elements of the menu I'm not able to get rid of.. I haven't used KDE in about 4 months so I can't refer to the exact names of the entries at the moment, but it's mostly to do with the main menu that pops up when u first click on it, I want streamlined. And with all of KDE's configurability I'm suprised that I'm not able to go as far as destroy/replace every single element on the menu if i the user chose to.

and given a choice between gnome's menu and K's, I pick Gnome's for that reason, it's more what i'm used to now as well.

I think that's a little clearer :-)

Reply Score: 1

Nathan O.
Member since:
2005-08-11

"You just don't get it."

No, you didn't explain it very well. You indicate in your article that what you were trying to illustrate (under the term "coherency," which is vague) was hard to put into words. Don't insult others to cover up for your deficient writing skills. You misrepresent OSNews as a publication to be taken seriously.

Reply Score: 5

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Don't insult others to cover up for your deficient writing skills.

Where in that post is the insult? Please don't go making up insults I did not make in order to discredit me.

Reply Score: 1

maxmg Member since:
2006-02-26

The insult is in the first sentence where you say

You just don't get it


That is an insult to the poster; it comes with an implicit sigh, hands thrown in the air and an muttered 'idiot' with it. If you removed the 'just' it is marginally better, however what you should have written was something like: as I said, (my definition of) coherence is hard to define precisely, and there is some quality (whatever it was) that I evidently didn't stress enough that needs to be there that you've not allowed for.

Once more your editorial skills are less than tacful, indeed much of your editorial posting seems to be a personal crusade against those that disagree with you. The meaning of moderation seems to have slipped you by.

Edited 2006-06-18 19:24

Reply Score: 5

Kokopelli Member since:
2005-07-06

I never thought I would end up defending Thom but... Being insulted by a relatively polite (for the web) "You just don't get it" then turning around and attacking him with such vitriol?

I really think you might want to take a step back and consider whether his opinion matters this much to you.

I am not a KDE user, so really can't comment too much on this rant. The K thing does bug me I must confess, but I can not explain why. the X for X11 apps does not, nor does the occasional G for Gnome apps. I guess it is the quantity of it. It gets old.

Reply Score: 2

maxmg Member since:
2006-02-26

I really think you might want to take a step back and consider his opinion matters this much to you

His opinion does matter, more than almost anyone else on these boards, because he is one of the editors, one of those responsible for moderating this board and keeping up some semblance of standards (to whit his instruction not to start a KDE Gnome flamewar. And praise where praise is due on that.) His posts cannot be moderated down (or up), they are there, untouchable and distinctly set apart from those of us in the cheap seats. It is reasonable to expect any posts in that privileged position to be held to a different standard. It is hard to tell where Thom ends and osnews begins sometimes, and that is worrying.

Reply Score: 3

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

His posts cannot be moderated down (or up)

They can.

http://www.osnews.com/meta/read.php/1147896425/you_asked_for_it:_mo...

Edited 2006-06-18 20:39

Reply Score: 1

maxmg Member since:
2006-02-26

My mistake, then, Thom. I was referring to the fact that the -/+ buttons are not enabled on your posts (for me: I certainly cannot mod up or down your posts, and nor can 93% of people according the information in that link).


And, to emphasize, your opinon does matter; that was even one of the things highlighted in the piece which rated previous articles as a great/personal success because people at Apple and Evolution had been in touch to talk about it (one unofficial contact)

Edited 2006-06-18 21:08

Reply Score: 1

Alex Forster Member since:
2005-08-12

For all intent and purpose, no, Thom, you can not be modded.

Reply Score: 3

cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

> For all intent and purpose, no, Thom, you can not be modded.

Well, it seems I could. But why should I?

I may disagree with a lot in his article / comments (and I'm so fed up with some of the old arguments that I even refuse to discuss them (e.g. the K* naming)) but I don't see any reason to mod him down (and I'm pretty sure you're only talking about modding down, not up).

I haven't seen him making personal attacks, using offensive language, being off-topic, spamming or advertising. Those are the criteria.

Edited 2006-06-19 00:19

Reply Score: 1

macisaac Member since:
2005-08-28

"It is hard to tell where Thom ends and osnews begins sometimes, and that is worrying."

it was much the same criticism when eugenia was at the helm. one can understand when folk like them are doing this work solely as a work of (unpaid) love that some level of emotional involvement will occur, sometimes for the better and sometimes otherwise. still, it would be to everyone's benifit (including their own) if they could it down a little sometimes, and practice a bit more of the more unattached diplomacy a moderator should perhaps be known for.

Reply Score: 2

macisaac Member since:
2005-08-28

that was supposed to say "tone it down a little"

Reply Score: 1

vitae Member since:
2006-02-20

You have to understand the real point of this site. Thom and Eugenia both have blogs, but don't get enough hits on them to satisfy them (and get tired of simply visiting each other's blogs). So they use this as their blog. They blast you with their opinions (often presenting it as fact)and expect you to agree. If you don't, Eugenia resorts to personal attacks (after a whole bunch of capital letters and exclamation marks) and Thom resorts to either a sharp comment or modding -5. Basically criticism directed at either one of them is fightin' words.

Reply Score: 5

Run as root - KDE su
by wohim on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:19 UTC
wohim
Member since:
2006-06-18

Fedora 4 version: "The action you requested needs root privileges. Please enter root's password below or click Ignore to continue with your current privileges."

Under the motto: 'no one reads help messages, so why include them', the Kubuntu team must have removed most of the explanation that comes with the root password dialog (or the somebody @ Redhat added some more text).

And 'ignore' does just what it says, continue with current privileges, showing (in this case) the dialog to change the time and date, without being able to change anything.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Run as root - KDE su
by Terracotta on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:02 UTC in reply to "Run as root - KDE su"
Terracotta Member since:
2005-08-15

*Sigh* How many times does it need explanation: THERE IS NO ROOT PASSWORD in Kubuntu/Ubuntu/Xubuntu, Your password actually IS "YOUR" password.
And yes, no one reads help messages, a lot of people come from an os that prefered "ease of use" above safety and took it a lot of steps too far. Now everyone just wants to press enter.

So Thom, wouldn't it be better to remove that line, it's the way ubuntu works (sudo) and not KDE's fault at all, the sentence is completely correct and means what it seems to mean. There must be other mistakes to put up than a box that really does and explains what it is for.

Reply Score: 1

KDE deficiencies
by Cutterman on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:31 UTC
Cutterman
Member since:
2006-04-10

Well said Thom! But you only sratched the surface! I use KDE (prefer it to Gnome), but that doesn't blind me to its faults.

KDE, like all GUI-linux, lacks coherency in a big way - actually its AWFUL.

"...the advantage that Windows has over Linux is that Windows development pays much greater attention to users than Linux development does. (Note, I'm not saying it's driven by users' needs; it obviously isn't.) For example, Microsoft gave a Vista version to a couple of thousand users and had somebody watch them getting used to it. This tells Microsoft, not what people say they find hard to get used to in Vista, but what people actually find hard to get used to in Vista. It's very tough for Free Software to do something like that."

Until KDE gets an ubermeister who really knows something about interface design (and MS have improved immeasurably - Vista apart) and insists people code to a coherent interface its always going to look like a amateur random asssemblage and be only quasi-usable.

When folks going to understand this!

Edited 2006-06-18 19:32

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Klutter
by Headrush on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:40 UTC
Headrush
Member since:
2006-01-03

50k apps, please.

On Gentoo with split ebuilds your lucky if a minimal install actually has 100 apps.

Just because a app is write for KDE, doesn't mean it is a "KDE" app.

This thread is full of outdated info from both sides.
Too many of you have no clue what you are talking about.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Klutter
by smitty on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Klutter"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Yes, with split ebuilds the minimal kde install doesn't even include kicker, let alone 50k apps.

Reply Score: 2

No clue
by Headrush on Sun 18th Jun 2006 19:42 UTC
Headrush
Member since:
2006-01-03

People need to understand the difference between what is KDE does by default, and what a Linux distro does to KDE by default.

Its no difference then people equate the problems with any DE and Linux. Linux is not the DE you use. It is something that runs on top of it.

Reply Score: 2

re: kde
by Tuishimi on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:27 UTC
Tuishimi
Member since:
2005-07-06

>I already proclaimed it a personal success.

Yay.

Well, I suppose your "nit picks" aren't too bad. They are rather nit-picky. KDE is a good DE. I like it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Icons are too big
by superstoned on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:32 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

indeed. and at least, you can change it globally in KDE. for Gnome, you have to change it in every individual application by hand...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Icons are too big
by segedunum on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Icons are too big"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

indeed. and at least, you can change it globally in KDE. for Gnome, you have to change it in every individual application by hand...

Aha! That wouldn't be an example of a lack of integration and coherence would it? :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Klutter
by anda_skoa on Sun 18th Jun 2006 20:43 UTC
anda_skoa
Member since:
2005-07-07

A deafult install of KDE must have over 50 K apps installed. It boggles my mind

You are quite likely using one of the old style commercial distributions that dump everything they can onto your harddrive in fear a competing distribution might have something more than they do.

Reply Score: 1

Bikeshedding
by rajj on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:00 UTC
rajj
Member since:
2005-07-06

If this isn't the most perfect example of a bikeshed issue that I've ever seen.

Names are labels. They have no inherent meaning other than to identify an object. If you really want to have everything named as descriptive statements rather than proper nouns, be prepared to eat your own dog food. I for one do not want everything named TextEditorForDummiesAndOtherPeopleThatCantBeBotheredToRTFM rather than vim (not meant to be analogous). If somebody uses a noun you don't know, you look in the dictionary. One does not demand that the author reduce his vocabulary.

As for whether the names contain k, g or any other arbitrary glyph from an alphabet just goes to further demonstrate the level of bikeshedding going on around here.

Edited 2006-06-18 21:01

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: K-Names
by anda_skoa on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:16 UTC
anda_skoa
Member since:
2005-07-07

Sometimes a letter is replaced with a K (konsole)

Actually that is the proper spelling for the executable of a program called "Konsole".

But maybe you are mistakingly assuming that it is the English word "console".

Reply Score: 2

RE: add this
by skuttler on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:27 UTC
skuttler
Member since:
2006-04-30

The icons on the desktop now align to the grid in KDE 3.5.3 - at long last.

Reply Score: 1

mmarshall
Member since:
2005-07-12

> > Typical Apple zealot response to criticism.

> And now I'm an Apple zealot?

> *sigh*

Thom? Apple zealot? He must be new here.

MWM

Reply Score: 2

RE[10]: K-Names
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:53 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

It's not really a problem because all the apps have the application icon next to it.

In any case, human beings do not read words letter by letter. Instead, they usually recognize words as a whole, so there's very little confusion (if any at all) when seeing, say "Konversation" next to "Kwifimanager".

Reply Score: 1

Good Comments
by anduril on Sun 18th Jun 2006 21:55 UTC
anduril
Member since:
2005-11-11

Overall, I agree with your main points about KDE (always agreed with the Gnome ones). I generally bounce between KDE and Gnome, depending upon my mood of the week and have been for about the past 8 months. I know it sounds like I wouldn't get much done, but I've configured both to exactly I want each side. Considering I regularly flirt between Windows and Linux cmdline at work, OSX, Windows, and Linux at home, I'm at home with all.

1.) I think I find what you're referring to here. KDE has very nice integration among its core apps, whether its Kopete to Konqurer with files, or Kmail with contacts, the core apps are integrated very nicely.

However, even in the core apps, dialogues are not always the same, menus vary, and it gets far, far worse when you delve out into other apps. KDE might have a general guideline for apps, but it doesn't seem as indepth, or as utilized as Gnomes. Now, thats from my experience, I could be completely wrong.

2.) I've noticed this mainly to be a problem with Kubuntu. It seems like they customized the dialogue too much to "fit" with the "root"-less accounts, but forgot to fill it out. Considering Kubuntu is still fairly new, and is an adaptation of Ubuntu's human interface, I think it should probably get a slide here for this release.

3.) Don't use it, so cant really mention here. I've only ever tried to use Ubuntu on my iBook and that was a disastor with the PPC.

4.) Same. I use apt-get from the commandline, or else synaptic. I know adept had alot of problems in breezy, hence why I avoid it.

5.) This is really my major beef with KDE. There's a million and one customizations possible, but there's no real central "location" for them. Yes, Gnome's dialogues might be simple but atleast I can go into gconf and edit them there, with just about every editable option in that location.

KDE though, requires going through a million and one .files or else trying to find it...everywhere. Some settings also dont seem to apply globally (like locktasbar) as you assume they would. I think its more just a lack of polish (again, maybe HIG isnt quite as adhered to?)

7.) Naming scheme. Yes, KDE's is terrible. But, then so is most opensource apps. Hopefully this'll be fixed soon in KDE4/Gnome3

Reply Score: 1

RE: KDE must be doing a good thing
by Ponto on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:08 UTC
Ponto
Member since:
2006-06-18

You say one have to make sure that it handles the fan properly. What do you mean by that?

I have the impression that my fan is running longer than neccessary. Do you have any references on how to solve the problem?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: The "K" names suck
by Ponto on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:18 UTC
Ponto
Member since:
2006-06-18

No he didn't say that. You don't only look at an apps name when you launch it, you also look at it in the taskbar, in the titlebar etc. And especially for new users it's important to have app names which actually tell you what this app is doing.

For a lot of applications you do not see the name in the taskbar and titlebar because the names are the last part of the title. As far as I know this holds for most document oriented applications.

Konsole starts with the current prompt then the name of the current session and finally its name.

Kate starts with the document and finishes with its name. Same for kword and other koffice applications.

Konqueror starts with the current path or the title of the visied webpage and finishes with its name. BTW, lonqueror is the only browser I know that has no inferiority complex and uses the favicon of the website instead of its own in the title and taskbar.

Kmail starts with the current folder that is followed by the apps name.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: KDE must be doing a good thing
by archiesteel on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:42 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

There's nothing scientific about this, but I had the impression that my fan kicked in too late with powersaved instead of powernowd (it's not really a KDE issue, since klaptop and kpowersave are really frontend for the aforementioned programs). This meant that my CPU was running too hot, which may have caused one of my memory chips to fail prematurely (fortunately it had a lifetime warranty).

So, in fact, my problem was the opposite of what you have...but as I said, there's nothing scientific about it, I haven't checked out the Ubuntu boards about it. I'm not sure where fan control settings are kept...

Reply Score: 1

An annoying KDE issue...
by devurandom on Sun 18th Jun 2006 22:58 UTC
devurandom
Member since:
2005-07-06

...i was thinking, is when you look for to change the "click" behaviour of the desktop (let's say from the UNIX one-click way to the Windows two-click way). On Kubuntu (I don't remember about other KDE environments,), it's filed under "Regional & Accessibility" --> "Mouse". This makes no sense to me - IMHO such a setting should be in desktop settings, and surely not under "accessibility".

Reply Score: 1

Get over it!
by mariux on Sun 18th Jun 2006 23:43 UTC
mariux
Member since:
2005-11-13

How can we possibly have 50 posts here about how much the k-names sucks. Get over it. They are just names. Its not the apps are shouting the name at you constantly.
Also, i find the names useful, they tell you that its a kde app. And of all people i would had though that the osnews crowd would know to appreciate usefullness over "cool name".
Is it really better how GnomeMeeting was renamed to ekiga? It went from telling you it was a gnome program and that it had something to do with meetings, to telling you absolutely NOTHING.

Also, i dont see how kde is not coherent? How do you want kopete to interface it self with the rest of the system? I find dcop, kio and kparts to be techs. that tear down the border between the apps.

The settings "mess" is also subjective. Some say its over the top, i say its perfect. I like being able to set keyboard shortcuts to everything, change where the buttons on the wm should be, change how mplayer should behave (window specific behavior) and so on.
If you are scared by the options, dont go there!
When i tried MacOSX i felt like my hands were tied behind my back. I didnt like how it forced it specific behavior on you with no options on how to alter it. (my way or the highway)

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: K-Names
by Carewolf on Sun 18th Jun 2006 23:47 UTC
Carewolf
Member since:
2005-09-08

To sum up you post:
prepending i - good
prepending K - bad


Apple and GNOME fans are so predictable.

Reply Score: 5

RE[5]: K-Names
by cm__ on Mon 19th Jun 2006 00:23 UTC
cm__
Member since:
2005-07-07

I seems that the the-broken-OSNews-HTML-makes-Konqi-forget-the-reference-bug is back. :-(

Threading on OSNews is broken again for Konqi users.

Edited 2006-06-19 00:26

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: K-Names
by Carewolf on Mon 19th Jun 2006 08:24 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: K-Names"
Carewolf Member since:
2005-09-08

I think you are right.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: K-Names
by cm__ on Mon 19th Jun 2006 08:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: K-Names"
cm__ Member since:
2005-07-07

I reopened http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116790

The strange thing is that the test cases from last time still work, but osnews doesn't.


I'd still prefer it if osnews.com fixed their HTML but they completely ignored my emails and forum posts from around fall 2005.

Edited 2006-06-19 09:02

Reply Score: 2

RE[8]: K-Names
by Carewolf on Mon 19th Jun 2006 10:00 UTC in reply to "RE[7]: K-Names"
Carewolf Member since:
2005-09-08

Well. They are proud of their broken HTML ;)

Reply Score: 2

More extras from KDE
by iskren on Mon 19th Jun 2006 00:25 UTC
iskren
Member since:
2005-07-06

I realy "like" "half loaded ui" feature of kde.
For example when open an archive with ark, while ark is reading the archive the ui is "half loaded",when ark finished reading the archive the iu finishes loading. The is true for all kde apps. When start konqueror to open your home dir the ui is "half loaded" until it read whole content of the dir.

This is annoying not k-names.

I hope this will be fixed in KDE4/QT4

Reply Score: 1

the only bugs that bug me
by ohbrilliance on Mon 19th Jun 2006 03:45 UTC
ohbrilliance
Member since:
2005-07-07

I have few gripes with KDE, and find it 99.9% there on the joy-to-use scale.

Here are my few gripes:

1) Konqueror handles file-types the same whether you're trying to use it as a file browser or as a web browser. It would be handy to have an HTML file open in Kate when clicked from the file-browser mode, and rendered in a browser when clicked in 'web browser' mode. [Note, if there's a way to set this behaviour then I'll be as happy as Larry]

2) Items saved to the Desktop don't align neatly. You have to explicitly align the desktop items to tidy them up. [another setting I've missed?]

3) There is no 3. KDE Rocks.

Some other random points:

* As stated by others, KDE is only as 'bloated' as the distribution chooses to make it. Take Gentoo's startkde for example. IIRC it doesn't even include Kicker.

* It's worth distinguishing between core parts of KDE, and apps that run on KDE/QT. The latter shouldn't reflect on the quality of KDE.

* I'll gladly give up some coherence (not that I'm convinced on this point) for best-of-breed apps.

Reply Score: 5

You got it
by atezun on Mon 19th Jun 2006 04:09 UTC
atezun
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm not sure if if coherence is the word you're looking for, more of a problem of a lack of cohesion. But I must agree when using KDE is doesn't feel like you're using any part oif of a cohesive whole. It feels like you're using a jumble of application which is is the exact opposite of why I want to use a DE, because everything intergrates and works togther as a whole. KDE is definately not the Kohesive Desktop Enviroment (excuse the pun).

Reply Score: 1

RE[9]: K-Names
by superstoned on Mon 19th Jun 2006 04:58 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

by the way, everybody complains about K3B, but i like that name. it means Kde Burn Baby Burn, well, that's just cool, isn't it?

Reply Score: 5

RE[9]: K-Names
by superstoned on Mon 19th Jun 2006 05:00 UTC
superstoned
Member since:
2005-07-07

Amen.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Programs starting with K
by TusharG on Mon 19th Jun 2006 05:10 UTC
TusharG
Member since:
2005-07-06

What is wrong with program names starting with k? Infact it helps me know that which apps are specifically designed for KDE.

Reply Score: 2

orbitrus
Member since:
2006-06-19

I think I get it...

I was about to disagree, but now I do.

When I think of coherence, glue comes to mind. When I think of integration, hooks and eyes come to mind.

KDE is well integrated - just look at KIO slaves to see how well. The thing is, KDE is integrated like stitching - you can see the threads binding the two together. Easily [note: this is why I love KDE]. When two pieces are glue together, you can see the physical borders of the pieces, but trying to see the glue is an exercise in frustration. In a simple way of thinking, the tighter the stitching, for more like glue it becomes. The looser, the easier to replace pieces. Additionally, the stitches in KDE aren't always on the borders. Sometimes a stitch goes right into the center of another piece, creating the sensation that it is "invading" the domain of another piece of software to do it's thing, when it should really just be touching at the border [this is mainly due to the design of DCOP].

IMO, Kontact is a perfect example - Kontact/KDEPIM is a fantastic piece of engineering, and you can see [or at least get the sense you can] the beams that hold it together, which is great for programmers. It isn't so great for non-programmers, who seeing the beams ask "why isn't it plastered and wallpapered?" For example, KAddressBook is well integrated into Kopete and KMail, but it isn't coherent since both Kopete and KMail have a central use for it, but it has no use them. Now, say, assume that in the pane to the right describing you contact there was a text-field that you just typed a message to them, and it sent them an email if they were offline, or IM'd them if they were online. THAT would provide coherence to the programs. And blur the lines between the programs.

Any comments anyone?

Reply Score: 4

RE[6]: K-Names
by Soulbender on Mon 19th Jun 2006 06:16 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

"I guess you'd name your kids One, Two, Three?"
In some parts of the world that is not uncommon.

"Because hey, that's functional, and even though it looks stupid, who cares?"
You mean it looks stupid to *you*. Fortunately you haven't been appointed ruler of what is universally stupid or not.

"And seeing the stupid 'k' EVERWHERE in KDE can really, and then I mean REALLY, piss me off."

You need to get a hobby. Really. Getting so upset over such minor details isn't healthy.
Btw, don't use Windows. I hear MS prefixes all their apps with "MS" and if a "K" upset you so much the two-letter "MS" will push you over the limit.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: K-Names
by OMRebel on Mon 19th Jun 2006 15:22 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: K-Names"
OMRebel Member since:
2005-11-14

" I hear MS prefixes all their apps with "MS" and if a "K" upset you so much the two-letter "MS" will push you over the limit."

Clicks on Start, Programs, Accessories, and takes a look. All I see is Paint, Calculator, NotePad, WordPad, etc... Nowhere do I see MSPaint, MSCalculator, MSNotePad, MSWordPad, MSetc..

The whole thing with K being displayed so prominently in the apps in KDE, to me, just takes away from the professionalism in the DE, IMHO.

Reply Score: 2

This is getting old
by DevL on Mon 19th Jun 2006 10:11 UTC
DevL
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thom, I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with these editorial rants but they make me miss Eugenia's OSNews more and more...

Reply Score: 1

RE: This is getting old
by rcsteiner on Mon 19th Jun 2006 21:51 UTC in reply to "This is getting old"
rcsteiner Member since:
2005-07-12

I agree. Sometimes he has interesting things to say, but often the basis for his comments totally eludes me.

The more I read of his editorials, the less I think OSNews and I have in common...

Reply Score: 4

KDE complaints, suggestions
by Bonus on Mon 19th Jun 2006 10:23 UTC
Bonus
Member since:
2005-12-23

1. ==KSysGuard needs application title support==
It lists application binaries instead of applications like Microsoft does.
So when I am running several Java programs, for instance, I don't know which one to shut down. Open Office is listed as soffice. Huh?
3. ==Better graphics for Kasbar==
4. ==No more bouncy cursor as default== It's too busy. Try something more subtle like a slight morph and the option to choose different images.
5. ==System Notifications== especially for error messages. I know I think I can have the program run in kouncil too at the same time which spits out decent errors but too cryptic for some and maybe I don't want that to popup for security reasons. I dunno. Also I think programs should start up with mouse click as default and spit out an error by default, without having to start konsole.
6 ==Easier access to meta information in Folder menu== I don't want to have to click all these buttons to access some of the more basic things. it should be more intuative. Amarok intigration still feels raw to me, unlike ITunes. Maybe because it's early on in dev. Also it seems special effects need to be done better with a border around it, but am not sure if it has been tweaked since I dont use Amarok anymore.
7. ==Better and more innovative Start Menu support and the ability to move icons around anywhere easily== KDE is still 'raw bones' with the start menu..
8. ==Better widget incorporation==
9. ==The plasitc theme still seems to thin looking to me, maybe not== Maybe spice it up a little to move away from the XPish look a little more.

Functionality is good but design and ease of use are just as important.

One thing that KDE has done very well is their Buffer Redraw from QT (Which GTK doesn't do so it's a smeary flappy mess, xgl might fix this since it buffers)

One thing I love about Linux and these programs is their uncluttered feel and usefullness.
I am a proud owner of KDE and really appreciate all the work the community and owners of the operation (the KDE) team have put in. Hope to see you all at a live event soon so you can hear me complain live.

Reply Score: 2

Some of my observations
by dado on Mon 19th Jun 2006 12:21 UTC
dado
Member since:
2006-05-01

I am a KDE user for about 4 years now, 3 of which exclusive (Mandrake before, Fedora now primary OS) and agree with most of the points in this article, and then some (all comments apply to FC5, it could be distro specific):

- when using smb:// KIO, you can't open a file without copying it to your disk internally or I must be missing something major, smb4k work MUST be integrated in KDE

- compress/decompress is very slow on my machine, that dialog is the one in need of love, you just have a "progress" bar that goes left - right, no percentage, no nothing, at least print out file names as compressing/decompressing. I tend to use tar from console, even if it isn't faster, it feels faster

- helper applications should be where people expect it and should integrate most common tasks. For example, when a new user wants to setup his/hers display adapter, it should be possible to do this in Display (with administrator mode). Those setup tools shouldn't be distro specific either, KDE should just implement a front - end part

- smart defaults is another thing, you should have something like a network traffic indicator by default (KNemo?) in your tray, feature rich apps like Kaffeine or Amarok should be default file association, Noatun and such should be dropped (who even uses them?)

- eye candy exists, why not make it available? All that work on kde-look.org is beeing unoticed, that's sad. Stuff 30 or so best rated wallpapers, 15 window themes, 15 mouse themes and so on. If you put it along side KDE, distro vendors wouldn't go out of their way to pull it out.

- what pisses me off is that most of the stuff which is needed already exists, but is not easily accessible. For example, you have to rip an audio CD, KAudioCreator seems to feature poor, but it shouldn't be! The only major feature is the actual ripping which is already outsourced. ;) Why not take a great example (Exact Audio Copy) and try to implement roughly the same features? Same goes for DVD encoding and other tasks, k3b is a great example of this, you can burn without it, but it's a non - trivial operation.

All in all, this is just from the top of my head. I'm sure I could make much more these cry - baby observations if I compiled them. ;)

Reply Score: 3

Petty petty petty
by rtfa on Mon 19th Jun 2006 18:56 UTC
rtfa
Member since:
2006-02-27

Keep on topic. One minute its Kununtu's KDE and then the next, its KDE itself.
Programs names wth a K - all the gripes about this so childish and a desparate attempt at finding something to criticise. KDE is a highly configurable desktop, you change those names in the menu to suit yourself and once you've configured it to your liking, strap it down via Kiosk mode.
If you can't get on with your work because a DE is configurable, that says more about you than the desktop environment i.e. you are easily distracted.

Reply Score: 3

Response from KDE
by rtfa on Mon 19th Jun 2006 21:26 UTC
rtfa
Member since:
2006-02-27
RE[6]: Which password?
by Soulbender on Tue 20th Jun 2006 10:06 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

It's not clear at all since you mix plain KDE criticism with Kubuntu criticism. In fact, the only Kubuntu specific issues you talk about is Adept (wich I agree is utter shite) and the kdesu dialog. Everything else is generic KDE criticism and not specific for Kubuntu or how Kubuntu ships KDE.

Reply Score: 1

Not too bad ...
by Torsten Rahn on Tue 20th Jun 2006 12:01 UTC
Torsten Rahn
Member since:
2005-08-20

After I had already read the previous parts of this "rant-series" I was quite surprised with the KDE review: Not only has the number of critizised items been smaller than for the other desktops so far. Even better: many of the issues mentioned have already been fixed weeks ago and/or are related to Kubuntu.
Thanks for the input anyways :-)

Reply Score: 4

Noatun
by Protoflux on Tue 20th Jun 2006 12:24 UTC
Protoflux
Member since:
2006-03-21

The KDE mega-packaging scheme is what always bothers me. Although I really love KDE and use it exclusively (Never liked Gnome although I really want to ), I just dont like the fact that
a> You need almost all of the KDE packages to install any one package especially with KDE multimedia
b> Even with KDE 3.5.3 on Fedora, Noatun is set as the default multimedia program. I mean who really uses Noatun nowadays..? More than that everytime I install KDE I have to go through the control center and set each and every multimedia file type to open in Mplayer or Kaffeine which is always the last option in the file association settings.

For a DE that prizes configurability, I find this type of setting quite strange.

Hopefully this will be taken care of in KDE4.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Noatun
by archiesteel on Tue 20th Jun 2006 16:54 UTC in reply to "Noatun"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

It's up to distributions to package KDE differently. Kubuntu does not require you to install unnecessary packages if you don't want to.

Reply Score: 1

in answer
by kayosiii on Wed 21st Jun 2006 06:22 UTC
kayosiii
Member since:
2006-06-20

1) I think that kde meets your definition of coherence quite well. For instance I like the way that Kopete integrates into my Address book - admittedly this is a fairly new feature that took a little bit of time to set up. I think that this form of coherence really helped me migrate away from gome a few years back. However I still sort of know what you are talking about. (as a user who has used KDE for quite a long time It can be quite difficult to see) I think has to do with the way that KDE doesn't integrate with what runs under it that well. It is also quite busy compared to what Gnome and OSX offer.

2) This has been explaind quite a few times... a Kubuntu user only has to know 1 password (well two if you count kwallet). A user uses there own password to allow changes to the system. However that dialog still needs some loving.

3)No comment Dont own a laptop.

4)Yeah Adept is ugly/ hard to understand and buggy. what you are looking for is the add/remove apps option in the main menu. However the actual KDE packing app (forgotten name needs some serious loving also)...

5) fair comment.

6) Yes the toolbar can be locked.

7)KDE 3.5 will be the last version of the KDE with the k naming scheme. some apps may keep the k moniker but this will be the exception rather than the rule. I think that people like iThings and don't like kThings is because k is quite a harsh sounding letter and I beeing a vowel is more readable at the beginning of a word.

Reply Score: 1