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Apple does offer a choice. It's right there alongside hard-disk size, RAM and so on, you get the choice of glossy or non-glossy, and for no extra charge.

[quote]I wish these companies offered customers the choice. I hate the glossy screen.[/quote]

Apple does offer a choice (glossy or non-glossy) and for no extra charge.

* the wireless reception is better than the G4's, they've moved the attenae and I get fantastic reception. Get a decent router instead of some natty DLink.

Great. But read carefully; the reception of the MBP was WORSE than what I got from my G4 iBook. My Dell, and even my PocketPC, has better reception.

What screen have you got? The Macbook Pro can have a glossy screen as *optional*. The matte screen has no viewing angle issues, and infact has a great viewing angle.

Did you read? We clearly stated we both do NOT have the glossy screen.

Other than that, I talked to Apple about the screen, and they CONFIRMED the viewing angle is rather small-- they do that to hinder people looking over your shoulder. Irrelevant to me, I prefer a large viewing angle.

Hefty price? Before my Macbook Pro I had a Sony VAIO for £1500 and it was chunky, loud, ran Windows, had no camera, didn't have the digital optical ports, didn't have a hella cool backlit keyboard, didn't have ambient light sensors and most of all didn't have a magnetic power adapter. For the £1430 I paid for my Macbook Pro it was a friggin bargain.

Great for you, I'm happy for you. My experience was different.

Other than that, I talked to Apple about the screen, and they CONFIRMED the viewing angle is rather small-- they do that to hinder people looking over your shoulder. Irrelevant to me, I prefer a large viewing angle.

I was just going to say that some of the new screens have a privacy feature to limit viewing angles. It's not Apples fault or a defect or an inferior screen. Most professionals on a plane don't want others looking into thier screens. Atleast I wouldn't.

Also as techincal writer you should have been more specific about which viewing angle is bad for you. From all accounts only the vertical viewing angle is limited and the horizontal angle is infact almost +/- 90 degress from most accounts.Apples's laptops are generally desinged to have the display tilted back and not kept vertical. Most ergonomics or human factors organizations will recommend that as the best positioning of a display device. Read the OSHA guidelines.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/computerworkstations/components_mon...

It is a perfectly valid feature for a pro machine contrary to what you stated. You should have been a more aware buyer.

Also as techincal writer you should have been more specific about which viewing angle is bad for you.

I said angleS. Seeing there are only two (vertical and horizontal), you can now know which I was referring to (namely, both).

But yes, I should've been clearer.

It is a perfectly valid feature for a pro machine contrary to what you stated.

It is not when the viewing angle is THAT small. Seriously, as I said in the review, by tilting your head SLIGHTLY, the colours change. I am not kidding. The angles are simply too narrow, pro machine or not.

It's not a bug it's a Feature(tm)!

I own a Dell XPS Generation 1 that I bought while I was in univeristy 2 years ago to do my work for projects and so on and also play games when I could. For that reason I had to use XP of course. while not the greatest OS it does more than what I need to do. Right now I am still using the same laptop to earn my living. The only problem it has is heat dissipation. So the point of my post is...everyone will have their opinions as to what is great and what is not so great. I for one like to have power over everything else no matter what machine I use. That is why my XP install is tweaked and skinned to an inch of its life using nLite and so on. I dont use antispyware tools because I know what NOT to do and so I have never had a problem. I know how to make my system work for me. That is what people should learn to do as well. I am not going to say Macbooks are the best because they arent. It is the OS behind them that makes using it a joy to use. WHy do you think Apple is not going to make OS X be installable on any machine with an EFI? Because they know people dont just buy their laptops because it looks great or has better hardware because it doesnt. They have flaws just like other laptops and the only reason why people like to buy them is because of the OS. Some think that the laptops look cool but then again I never bought a machine because it looked cool. My laptop is as ugly as it gets but boy does it command respect from my peers. So in other words dont tell people please that they are not regular users or anydbody who has work requirements for machine. You do not know what people use their machines for. I am glad you like your Macbook just as I like my XPS.

PS: You do know Macbooks because of heat issues have their graphics cards downlocked than what clockspeeds are normal for those cards right?

"Why do you think Apple is not going to make OS X be installable on any machine with an EFI?"

EFI isn't even required to run Mac OS X.

"* Hefty price? Before my Macbook Pro I had a Sony VAIO for £1500 and it was chunky, loud, ran Windows, had no camera, didn't have the digital optical ports, didn't have a hella cool backlit keyboard, didn't have ambient light sensors and most of all didn't have a magnetic power adapter. For the £1430 I paid for my Macbook Pro it was a friggin bargain."

humm, you didn't buy it this year or a week before you got your MBP, did you?

this is today's 1500£ Sony VAIO:

VGN-AR11M

http://vaio.sony-europe.com/view/View.action?section=Products_ITE&p...

This has been proven to be untrue. The problem was wit the fans, not the thermal compound, as originally reported.

This has been proven to be untrue. The problem was wit the fans, not the thermal compound, as originally reported.

How was this proved? There may also be a problem with the fans but if the photos of the innards of all those MacBooks were not faked then there was/is a SERIOUS problem with the thermal compound on those machines. Applying that much will definitely cause overheating, even Steve Jobs' reality distortion field can't bend the laws of physics. Also, I read several reports confirming the 15-20°C temperature drop after correcting the problem. This tallies precisely with my long experience of building my own computers, including updating Pentium M processors on laptops. That is exactly the sort of temperature differential I would expect after correcting the thermal compound problem shown in the MacBooks.

I should add that I am going on the photos and reports I have seen. If those photos are genuine then the thermal compound is the main problem. If not then that may not be it, but the fact remains that the MacBook Pro runs much too hot.

Edited 2006-06-22 15:24

The compound, when re-applied properly, did NOT fix the problem for people who tried it. It brought the temp down only 1 or 2 degrees, that's hardly relevant.

These people must have screwed up then. If both blowers and the heat pipe thermal sensor are functioning as they should, reapplying the thermal paste will fix the problem. No matter how much some people here don't want this to be true.

Most people reported that after the firmware upgrade, CPU temperatures returned to normal parameters. Perhaps that applying both would produce even better results, but are you willing to void your warranty?

Perhaps that applying both would produce even better results, but are you willing to void your warranty?

I'm not willing to buy a computer that overheats. Period. I'm waiting until the issue has been resolved -- and anyway the Merom Core Duo will be a much better chip and by the time that becomes available all these teething troubles should have been (hopefully) ironed out.

You are missing the point. The "overheating" was caused by the fans not blowing properly. An updated computer does not overheat. It's a software bug. And it's fixed.

Trust me, there are many worse bugs in every modern OS than this one, which doesn't comprimise security or stability.

Yes that firmware did help a bit, but I'm sure you'll agree that too much themal grease == Bad News

And that goes for any computer or consumer electronics device.

Btw, on page 3 you write this is a confirmed design defect, and now you say It's a software bug. Which is it?

I still say it's neither.

Edited 2006-06-22 16:03

Whatever, it's a nitpick, it's semantics. A software bug is a design defect, since Apple is the "ready out of the box" company.

> An updated computer does not overheat.

Yes, it does.

> It's a software bug.

No, it's not.

> And it's fixed.

No, it's not.

I have updated mine. And it still runs way too hot, even when not under very much load.

I have updated mine. And it still runs way too hot, even when not under very much load.

That's pretty much what I would expect. If you open it up you will probably find gobs of thermal compound exuding out from between the three cooled chips and the heatsink and spilling onto the main board.

Last week I visited a (non-Apple) Mac dealer here in Cologne and the MacBook Pro they had on show was just sitting there doing nothing, with no programs other than the basic operating system running, and it was already WAY too hot. Uncomfortably hot to touch both below the keyboard and (even more so) on the underside.

I suspect that one of the reasons Apple may not see this problem as too serious may be because Intel specs the Core processors for somewhere in the region of 100°C. By the time the chips fail due to having been run continuously at temperatures well over 80°C the warranty will probably have expired -- hell, they may even actually survive for years at those temperatures.

Be that as it may, I still don't want a laptop/notebook computer that gets that hot. My 2GHz Pentium M (Dothan) notebook runs at around 40°C most of the time and never goes above 60°C even under permanent full load for extended periods and that's the way I like it -- but that's because I've reduced the processor voltages. (Intel specifies quite high voltages for the Dothan core to make sure that it's always stable, most individual processors can be run at significantly lower voltages and much cooler.)

But even under "normal" conditions anything above 50°C in normal operation and 70°C under extended full load is too much, it's just unpleasant, even if the chips can take it. Eliminating that kind of thing was one of the main reasons for creating mobile chips like the Pentium M in the first place, because they used less power and ran cooler. Now things seem to be swinging back towards "desktop" processors in mobile computers again, in the quest for more and more power...

But how would a tech be able to tell if I took out my logic board? Correct, only if he were to take out the logic board. So if, say, I have a busted blower, wireless card, keyboard etc. there shouldn't be a problem getting it fixed.

Re-applying the thermal paste does NOT void your warranty, as many people have pointed out in the thread the process was originally documented in at SomethingAwful. Applecare still applies as long as you don't screw anything up with your big, grubby mitts. Do a clean enough job and you can't even tell it's been opened.


My one concern, though, is that the fans in my MBP don't seem to spin up very often in OSX, while under Linux they come on often enough to be unobtrusive yet cool it considerably better. Hopefully there'll be a BMC or other update to address this in the future.

I'm pleased that he was able to give such an honest review, people pay an awful lot of money for their apple hardware and expect a certain level of quality, it's obvious that quality, not to mention value for money, is not a primary concern in the current generation of apple portables.

All too often we see mac fans being extremely defensive about the products, wake up and realise that the company obviously doesn't care as much about you as you do them.

All too often we see mac fans being extremely defensive about the products, wake up and realise that the company obviously doesn't care as much about you as you do them.

Yes, absolutely. And for that sole reason it it good to have choice. It is good that there are companies like, well, Microsoft and Dell to randomly name a few, that actually care more for their customers than they do for the shareholders.

It really is heartwarming when you think about it

It's not about who's the lesser evil, it's about treating your customers and mac fans reactions whenever Apple/Mac is at fault.

By your logic, Murderer A is a better person than Murderer M and D because Murderer A killed fewer victims.

Edited 2006-06-22 17:15

sure, after all murder A only have 2% of the victims where M & D have at least ten times more victims

With respect to murdering, then nobody's better. They're all murderers.

No, that's your logic, dude.

Anyhow, I was only making a poor attempt at humor. Sorry you didn't like it.

"Microsoft and Dell to randomly name a few, that actually care more for their customers than they do for the shareholders. "

Is that a joke ?

Facts:

From the wikipedia :
"Apple does not currently pay dividends on its common stock."

Shareholders of Apple doesn't get any money for their shares.
Shareholders of Microsoft and DELL get money for their shares.

How can you decently say that Apple cares more about its shareholders than Microsoft and DELL ...

How can you decently say that Apple cares more about its shareholders than Microsoft and DELL ..

Sarcasm. I think he was joking around.

I was joking. I have noticed that people around here don't get my sarcasm, so it's probably me. Maybe I should quit doing that.

"I have noticed that people around here don't get my sarcasm"

It is just difficult to see a sarcasm when it is written. :-)

Btw I love sarcasm ^^

Most folks wouldn't be able to recognize irony if painted itself purple and danced naked on top of a harpsichord, singing "Look at me, I'm the use of words expressing something other than their literal intention!"

That's so hot...i'm picturing irony dancing naked and painted purple.

Wow.

No, you don't need to quit doing that. The basement-dwelling, no-social-life having, Penguinista Linux geeks that frequent these boards need to learn how to detect sarcasm.

(let's see how they do with that one.)

Well, in Duff's defense, I don't think he's a Penglot.

You should know by now that sarcasm doesn't come across well in posts.

My point wasn't that they have the least regard for their customers but that they have enjoyed such a loyal userbase, and apple are so trendy thesedays that it's on the up again, that they don't feel the need to try so hard anymore. People always seem to view apple with a warm fuzzy glow, like they're not a company out to make money from their customers, the truth is that because they have fewer customers than many computer hardware companies they're actually out to screw more money per customer than anyone else. Of course a majority of oldschool mac users are happy with this arrangement, as long as the hardware is overpriced and therefore somewhat exclusive they feel happy using it, they'd be disgusted by the idea of macs as mainstream computers for mainsteam people, doing mainstream tasks, macs, and therefore their owners, have long been superior at being superior.

thinking about Apples old slogan of "think different" still makes me laugh...

I am not speaking about Apple's product but of Thom himself.

Each week we have an article from Thom speaking about what he hates.
Geez, can't we have *one time* an article about what he likes ...

Edited 2006-06-22 17:13

Each week we have an article from Thom speaking about what he hates. Geez, can't we have *one time* an article about what he likes ...

Eh, well, it seems you did not read this article very well then, but instead, only focused on its conclusion. Because, in the article, I praise several aspects of the notebook-- just not enough to recommend you buy this laptop.

Other than that, my columns the past few weeks were especially about things I didn't like. So go figure. When that series is done, I'll promise to write about things I love, ok?

"It seems you did not read this article very well then"
I read it in the whole.

"When that series is done, I'll promise to write about things I love, ok?"
ok ;-)

Indeed! Anyone who doesn't gush praise over Apple hardware must be impossible-to-satisfy. How reassuring that line of thought must be.

Thom, you broke the cardinal rule! Mac users are only allowed to criticize Macs when among other Mac users - you're not supposed to let the rest of the plebes know that Apple products have (gasp) faults!

The second question is to Adam. You reviewed the 12-in G4 powerbook when it came out.

That wasn't me. I've never used a 12" Powerbook. David reviewed one several years ago, though.

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=2792

Mail.app may be silly for using a proprietary format instead of Maildir, but it is hardly silly to use a single file for each email.

The mbox format is an *old* format, designed for use back when hard drives were small and storing a 1K email would consume an entire 512K disk block. It is also designed to be a very simple format.

But as a format for a filesystem or database, mbox is awful. Using a format like Maildir or Mail.app's is much better and is a good compromise between easy text-format access and a full-up database.

My comment wasn't about them moving away from mbox, I was just saying that

1) It was silly Spotlight couldn't index within standard databases, e.g. by using the Mac OS X vfs API to create an mbox file-system (much like Kat does in KDE)

2) It was silly to use a proprietary format when they felt compelled to split up the file when a standard format like Maildir would have helped both them and their users.

With regard to mbox, a lot of file-systems have trouble dealing with several thousand small files. mbox solved this by allowing you to bypass the main file-system entirely: it works a bit like a Database and with mmap and a separate index file you could get some decent performance. The reason the did it was clearly for Spotlight support. It was a rush job, just like the templates in iWeb (that use DIV for everything instead of H1, H2, P etc.) or the RSS in iPhoto (which is staggeringly non-compliant).

I'm thinking seriously of getting a Merom powered Macbook Pro, but I have to say the software isn't a huge draw: I could see myself using Camino, Adium and Thunderbird instead of Apple equivalents.

Thom didn't do a lot of research before commenting on the Macbook Pro (e.g. the keyboard back-light).

Huh? What did I do wrong? I was right: there is no way of setting it to always on.

Also he seems to be constantly mentioning Dell laptops in the first page, which, while reasonable, in its constancy seems to imply a bias

It's comparison material. Since when is that perceived as wrong?

There is a difference between a laptop and a notebook, and there always has been. A laptop computer that can be rested on ad-hoc surfaces (like a lap) and is thus small and sturdy (e.g. the 13" Macbook). A notebook is a computer that is portable, but ideally should be rested on a formal flat surface like a table-top, and the 15.4" Macbook Pro is an example of that.

Laptop, notebooks, it's semantics. It's a protable computer, and as such, should be used as one. I did not use it on my lap. I use it flat on my bed. But even on normal surfaces, as Adam pointed out, even the KEYBOARD gets very hot to the touch. So the note/lap argument is void anyway.

Grammer stuff

English is not my native language. It is only one of the three I speak, and as such, it will not be perfect. In any case, my English is better than probably most of the English speaking world's 2nd languages .

I take issue with the comment "definitely not worth its hefty, hefty pricetag". I priced a Dell with comparable hardware and the difference was about €100, and the Dell didn't come with a Webcam.

The defects I encountered are NOT to be expected on a 2500E laptop. As simple as that.

The statement "The MBP sports decent build quality" is at odds with the statements "The MacBook Pro should've never passed the Q/A stage." and "my MacBook Pro suffers from battery failures of some sort;". Which is it?

It is not at odds. Build quality refers to how well-built the machine is, if it's sturdy, scratches easily, squeals or not, etc. In that respect, as I said in the review, the MBP does a fine job.

The Q/A stage note solely refers to the heat issue.

Mais même si je parle en Français, je sais comment on utilise « i.e. » et « e.g. ». Ce n’est pas dur, et si vous ne pouvez pas parler le bien Anglais, pour quoi avez-vous choisi de gérer OSNews.com?

Caithim a rá, chomh maith, go bhféidir liom scríobh i dtrí theanga, Béarla, Francíse, agus Gaeilge.

Such are the benefits of going to school in Ireland, and learning Irish and French. And then reading books about grammar ;-)

Edited 2006-06-22 16:38

If you want to take a review apart just because of a misuse of "i.e."... Go ahead.

Aber weiss doch dass es weiter nichts ändert. Het is en blijft een middelmatige laptop voor te veel geld .

The crazy thing is that, despite never learning the Dutch language, I could actually understand that part. Always thought it was cool how much it resembled, and yet was different, from English.

The German bit had me completely lost though.

Always thought it was cool how much it resembled, and yet was different, from English.

Dutch is actually very difficult to learn, as the rules that govern our grammar and spelling all have exceptions, but these exceptions themselves have exceptions, who in turn also have exceptions. It's really funny, not even newspapers know what's up anymore these days. They now use a different set of rules than the official body enstated (de TaalUnie).

The German part was easy. It said: "But bear in mind that it changes nothing."

As much as I enjoy talking languages (I study it at university), let's get back on topic.

You're absolutely right, I have observed the same thing. English is relatively easy to learn for Dutch people (and vice versa I would guess). At least the grammar part. You still have to build up a vocabulary of course.

"Mais même si je parle en Français, je sais comment on utilise « i.e. » et « e.g. ». Ce n’est pas dur, et si vous ne pouvez pas parler le bien Anglais, pour quoi avez-vous choisi de gérer OSNews.com?"

By the way, pourquoi is written as one word...;)

>>Grammer stuff

>>English is not my native language. It is only one of the three I speak, and as such, it will not be perfect. In any case, my English is better than probably most of the English speaking world's 2nd languages .

Nice zing, but I think you meant to spell that 'grammar'. But I have to agree with my grandparent; if this site or you are ever to be taken more seriously than Dvorak's incessant muckraking, perhaps more emphasis should be placed on quality journalism.

I don't know, maybe the 'grammer' misspelling was intentional, maybe you need to chill out and stop taking yourself so seriously.

Kind of like those rather funny apple ads on tv...the two guys...one who is the mac and the other who is the boring windows pc.

I agree it would be great, but it simply won't happen. I don't have to remind everyone that Apple is basically a Hardware company. They want to sell you hardware.

Now, there are a couple of hackers that possibly installed OS X on a custom box, but I do not know how, nor do I really care because I am done with 'hack-everything-i-see' period of my life.

Frankly it'd be rubbish. No backlit keyboard, no sudden motion sensor, no ambient light sensor, no magnetic power adapter, not as thin and you'd have to deal with third party drivers.

If OS X were on normal laptops, I'd still buy a mactop

Yes, that is the key difference that made me go through all the trouble of buying my MacBook Pro in the U.S. instead of Germany. It's a lot of trouble indeed (including idiots at the customs who want to charge taxes on the delivery costs).

ship it with windows and you call it monopoly practices.

plus I think they were giving their review with their regular usage of this class of notebook.

There is nothing illegal about monopolies, other than breaking the law to maintain them.

Don't get a VAIO! Their support is even spottier than apple's and as far as I've seen their computers are just not internally serviceable. If you want something that'll last forever get a ThinkPad and if you want something that you can get fixed easily, get a Dell.

I'd like to know where the hot spots are on the machine. On my Powerbook G4, there is a spot in the middle (left to right) on the hinge side where I suspect the CPU is that gets very hot when the system is running hard. I've always dealt with it by putting it on my lap so my knees are on either side of the hot spot and it's not been an issue.

Is the MBP's "hot spot" in the same place? If so, I think I can deal with the heat. (My company has an MBP on order for me, so I HOPE I can deal with the heat.)

I certainly hope the heat is not enough of an issue to cause premature failure, though...

I'd like to know where the hot spots are on the machine.

Well, err, actually, the machine is one, big hotspot. However, the area underneath the keyboard (in its entirity) is the worst.

"Battery performance as well, I've have it on all day without needing a charge."

I agree with you on most points, but the above statement is nonsense. Even though battery life has improved compared to the Powerbook I have, you can't work all day with a MBP without a charge.

I find it hard to believe that you get 6 hours on one charge. You must have one of the better batteries. I get 3.45 h maximum. We're talking about a macbookpro right?

To monitor temperature you can use increw.com's SpeedIt kernel extension or better yet, Bresink's Temperature Monitor, which gives you readings for the hard drive and for each core seperately.

Edited 2006-06-23 07:18

I am confounded that you receive a Mac Book Pro to review and neglect to post copious amounts of pictures.

Why would I? There's an infinite amount of pictures of the MBP on the web.

There is also an infinite number of reviews of the MBP on the net. With that mentality why bother reviewing the machine at all.

If a company was gracious enough to provide me with a product I would go all out on a review.

Yes I agree. If you don't need a portable computer, a desktop would be a less expensive choice.

I think a "cheap" GMA950 portable plus a home built desktop for 3D games complement each other nicely.

Nice setup. Define "ages".

Yeah Apple always lags in the graphics department. And whats more for fear of heat they have downclocked the gpu from stock! So bye bye graphics performance!

"4) HEAT & VOLTAGE
"My friends lower the voltage on their MacBooks. From 1.4 V to 1.0. "

How do you do that?"

http://cpu.rightmark.org/products/rmclock.shtml