Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 12:58 UTC
SuSE, openSUSE Yesterday, Novell released a pre-release of its much-anticipated SUSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10, actually the 3rd release candidate. This release contains all the much-touted stuff such as Xgl and its fancy effects, Beagle integration, and more. Read on for some first impressions.
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yast gtk frontend.
by cole on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:33 UTC
cole
Member since:
2005-12-31

Looks like a yast gtk frontend is currently being worked on?

http://en.opensuse.org/Summer_of_Code_2006#YaST

Reply Score: 5

RE: yast gtk frontend.
by HiThere on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:35 UTC in reply to "yast gtk frontend."
HiThere Member since:
2006-05-13

Dam! You have beaten me to it =)
Actually understanding YaST makes one appreciate it alot more. Then you understand why it isn't super fast.

note* YaST has a backend/frontend system allowing you to write a template once and display it with whatever you want.. ncursus, qt and gtk being worked upon.

Edited 2006-06-28 13:42

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: yast gtk frontend.
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:36 UTC in reply to "yast gtk frontend."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Ah, that's great to know. Thanks!

Reply Score: 1

v OK
by Duffman on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:34 UTC
RE: OK
by alcibiades on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:40 UTC in reply to "OK"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

Well, what exactly is the problem with the observation?

Is it not true that it can be installed on computers most people already have?

Or is it not true that that is an advantage?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: OK
by Duffman on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:42 UTC in reply to "RE: OK"
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

"SLED has all the bling and integration at the application level that the MacOS offers;"

Tell me how can Novell be better at integration than a company making hardware AND software ...

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: OK
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Tell me how can Novell be better at integration than a company making hardware AND software ...

What part of "at the application level" don't you understand?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: OK
by alcibiades on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

Perhaps its that you do not have to make (or rather commission) the hardware in order to deliver "integration"? Perhaps this is just a myth? Perhaps it really doesn't matter that much for the feel of the OS what sort of graphics card or hard drive or memory chips you have or who made them? Perhaps the OS designer/supplier just has to make sure the drivers are there and the hardware recognised...?

It is the right question to ask, but it should not be rhetorical. How can it be done? By working smart: making sure you do good hardware recognition and configuration during the installation process. If you are an OEM, you can support a smaller range of hardware because what you choose to ship is limited and predictable. Then you do it by testing your chosen shipping configuration and making sure it works properly before you order a couple million.

This is really not very mysterious, and putting a specific brand label on the outside of the box does not facilitate it one way or the other.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[4]: OK
by Duffman on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:00 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK"
RE[5]: OK
by alcibiades on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:06 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

"Ok, so the fact I never heard the word "driver" since I bought a Mac back in 2003 is a myth ..."

No, its probably perfectly true. If you don't reconfigure your hardware, you don't have to hear the word on any modern OS.

But the serious point is this. No OS, though Linux and XP are close, comes with absolutely all the drivers needed for any hardware anyone may choose to install. You have two choices: one is the Apple way, tough, it is not going to work. This means you never hear the word driver, and the stuff doesn't work. The other is the XP way: I will now find a driver for you. You do hear the word, and the stuff does work.

Most of the time, with XP, you don't even hear the word, and the stuff does work. A much wider range of stuff. Same on Linux.

Neither choice says anything about the degree of integration of the hardware with the OS. It is just a different way of handling the same issue. Integration is not about being compatible with more less hardware because you ship with more or fewer drivers. Integration would be about using drivers differently in some way. This is not what Apple is doing.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: OK
by Duffman on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:55 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: OK"
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

"No OS, though Linux and XP are close, comes with absolutely all the drivers needed for any hardware anyone may choose to install"

False. Juste take a look at video card drivers. Even on Windows you have to download it from nvidia or ATI to have a full functionnal video card.

" You have two choices: one is the Apple way, tough, it is not going to work. This means you never hear the word driver, and the stuff doesn't work."

Everything is working well since many years, thanks ...

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: OK
by alcibiades on Wed 28th Jun 2006 16:43 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: OK"
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

Everything is working well since many years, thanks ...

Yes, of course it works well. So will an XP or Linux installation. But what exactly is it that is more integrated?

It cannot be that greater integration is just fewer drivers for less hardware. Integration cannot be anything to do with the number of drivers - at least, not as the word is ordinarily used.

What exactly is it that is more integrated, when I buy my XP box and fire it up with graphics cards and so on, or when I fire up my OSX box with the same hardware? It must be, if it exists at all, something to do with what OSX does with those same drivers. There must be something more integrated about how it works.

Please, please - someone who has seen this integration - tell us what exactly it is. How do I tell when its there and when its not there?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: OK
by andrewg on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

I bought an external HD enclosure(Firewire) marked to work with Mac OS X. I bought it but low and behold it only had drivers for OS 10.2 and below. I was running 10.3. I scowered the internet only to discover there were no drivers for 10.3 and that there were no plans to make them.

It worked fine on Windows an Xandros by the way without having to install drivers.

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: OK
by Duffman on Thu 29th Jun 2006 06:37 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: OK"
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

I never had to install driver for external HD drive with firewire, even with self made ones...

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: OK
by andrewg on Thu 29th Jun 2006 17:13 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: OK"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

Details for mine are:

Make: Thermal take
Model: Silver river 2.5

I also have a 2.5 inch lacie external harddrive with support for firewire and usb 2.0 The Mac requires Firewire and needs a big thick cumbersome firewire cable which is far harder to carry than the actual drive. Windows XP and Suse 10.1 both work with usb and firewire. The usb cable is so much more convenient but alas my powerbook won't work with usb.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: OK
by maxmg on Wed 28th Jun 2006 18:48 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: OK"
maxmg Member since:
2006-02-26

Ok, so the fact I never heard the word "driver" since I bought a Mac back in 2003 is a myth ...

No, it just means that you've done nothing that meant you wanted to install a new driver. Since I bought my iBook last year I have 'heard' the word driver a lot: when I installed mouse drivers for a (non-Apple) mouse, and when I upgraded my Ati video drivers using software update, for example. I also noticed that Apple will supply extra drivers for new technology that wasn't out when they shipped me the computer. In fact you'd've had to actively avoid looking at the software downloads on the apple website or the software update window not to have come across the word driver.

Edited 2006-06-28 18:50

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: OK
by Sphinx on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Integration does not benefit from making the hardware, only knowledge of the hardware benefits integration. Manufacturer is unimportant.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: OK
by _LH_ on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:57 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OK"
_LH_ Member since:
2005-07-20

"SLED has all the bling and integration at the application level that the MacOS offers;"

But does it include the goatse desktop switcher (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1221/3225/1600/leopard_img02.png)? I know the screenshot isn't real but I'm almost willing to pay a small bounty if somebody implements it.

Edited 2006-06-28 14:59

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: OK
by czubin on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:10 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: OK"
czubin Member since:
2005-12-31

Nope, it does not.
But it's not impossible, making plugins for compiz(the eyecandy) is very easy. Although you need a good deal of C etc knowledge.

Reply Score: 1

quack quack quack
by pjjmartin on Wed 28th Jun 2006 13:59 UTC
pjjmartin
Member since:
2005-07-08

It's an interesting review. It's unfortunate that it isn't practical to test a distribution for a more extended period of time, say 30 days, with extended application usage. All these distro reviews don't discuss what it's like to run applications on. Shading effects, themes, icons, etc. are just window dressing.

And it's "duct tape," not "ducktape." It's not nice to tape down ducks.

Reply Score: 5

RE: quack quack quack
by nagot on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:49 UTC in reply to "quack quack quack"
nagot Member since:
2006-06-28

No, it's duct tape or duck tape. It was originally developed to protect ammunition cases from water.

Reply Score: 1

RE: quack quack quack
by David on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:53 UTC in reply to "quack quack quack"
David Member since:
1997-10-01

Actually, "Duck" tape is also correct. The tape that we know as duct tape was originally a waterproof (hence duck) tape to seal boxes. It's actually lousy for sealing ducts.

Duck tape is a trademark, so saying it is like calling petroleum jelly Vaseline.

http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/duckvsduct.html
http://www.duckproducts.com/

Reply Score: 1

Sounds nice...
by madcrow on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:06 UTC
madcrow
Member since:
2006-03-13

but I wonder why anybody in their right mind would shell out for this when SuSE 10.2 will probably make it just as easy to turn on all the shiny new features (which are in 10.1 already, but hard to get at)

Reply Score: 2

RE: Sounds nice...
by yanik on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:19 UTC in reply to "Sounds nice..."
yanik Member since:
2005-07-13

it's SUSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10, notice the 'Enterprise' part of the name.

Enterprise customers don't believe in free stuff, you have to charge them if you want them to try your stuff.

It's the same story for Fedora Core and RedHat Enterpise Linux. Again, notice the 'Enterprise' part in the name.

Reply Score: 2

Weee
by czubin on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:14 UTC
czubin
Member since:
2005-12-31

This is probably this first linux distro which I find worth spending money on (and going to buy it offcourse)

Reply Score: 1

RE:Weee
by pumupthapointz on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:21 UTC
pumupthapointz
Member since:
2006-06-28

This is probably this first linux distro which I find worth spending money on (and going to buy it offcourse)

Maybe,i just wonder whatś the difference between SLED and SuSE.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]:Weee
by XIII on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:27 UTC in reply to "RE:Weee"
XIII Member since:
2006-06-20

This one's supposed to be aimed at the enterprise, so you get a lot less apps, but better integration.
Suse (pro) is the swiss army knife, offering everything including the kitchen sink, but at the cost of integration. So if you're someone who wants a simple os to browse, chat and edit documents with Sled 'could' be a better choice. I hope we'll get a more indepth review in a week or 2 when Thom's had more chance to play with it.

Reply Score: 5

Practical question
by Ronald Vos on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]:Weee"
Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

I assume you can still install the kitchen sink if you want to.

BTW, surprisingly, you can't download it if you're a resident of Afghanistan. So much for wanting to help rebuild the country ;)

Anyway, practical question of saving plastic and time: do you really need all 5 installation cds? It seems a bit excessive...can I do with just the first 2?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Practical question
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:42 UTC in reply to "Practical question"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Anyway, practical question of saving plastic and time: do you really need all 5 installation cds? It seems a bit excessive...can I do with just the first 2?

It's in the review: you need 4 CDs for the default installation. I did not burn the 4th CD, however, so the 2 packages from CD4 are currently not installed on my system (it works fine though). I'll burn disc 4 and 5 when I've bought new CD-Rs.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Practical question
by SlackerJack on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Practical question"
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

No you dont, you only need 3 cd's for the default since I only burned 3.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Practical question
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:03 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Practical question"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

No you dont, you only need 3 cd's for the default since I only burned 3.

I did a default installation, didn change anything, and two packages were located on CD4. One of these is the package that provides beagle-evolution integration.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Practical question
by HiThere on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Practical question"
HiThere Member since:
2006-05-13

I have installed it on vmware yesterday and it only required the first 3 CDs. Everything was by default. You might have some hardware that needs packages on the 4th cd?

Edited 2006-06-28 21:51

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Practical question
by thebluesgnr on Wed 28th Jun 2006 22:51 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Practical question"
thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

I needed 5 CD's for a default installation. The required packages from discs 4 and 5 were probably all l10n related, which explains why different people are getting different results.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Practical question
by XIII on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:45 UTC in reply to "Practical question"
XIII Member since:
2006-06-20

If it's anything like the normal suse the first few will have the installer and rpm's and the last few cd's will have the source packages. So with a bit of luck you'll get by with just the first 2.

Edit: never mind *points up to Thom's comment*

Edited 2006-06-28 14:46

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]:Weee
by czubin on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:42 UTC in reply to "RE:Weee"
czubin Member since:
2005-12-31

Well using SuSe on a daily usage and I feel it's missing way too muy..., sure I can make everything work but I need something which works not only for me but everyone else (aimed as a simple workstation).

That said, the clean ups and extra usability Novell put into this just might make it.

So far most reviews are good.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]:Weee
by Vonpligher on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:16 UTC in reply to "RE:Weee"
Vonpligher Member since:
2006-01-07

No real difference but why not? with SLED you get a (big and good) printed manual and you support novell, a company that is investing a lot in linux. You have a choice, you can buy it (SLED) or have it for free (OpenSUSE)... just don't blame me if I choose to support Novell.

Reply Score: 1

Xgl is not only in SLED
by jaykayess on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:34 UTC
jaykayess
Member since:
2005-09-28

You can try Xgl right now by downloading OpenSuSE 10.1. And it's just as easy to turn on/off.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]:RE[2]:Weee
by pumupthapointz on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:46 UTC
pumupthapointz
Member since:
2006-06-28

That said, the clean ups and extra usability Novell put into this just might make it.

Someone has to make a good example for others to follow.Maybe it's the case.Have to say it's indeed receiving good reviews.

Reply Score: 3

nice
by backdoc on Wed 28th Jun 2006 14:58 UTC
backdoc
Member since:
2006-01-14

Good review. Not too long, not too short. It told me what I wanted to know.

I hope that this turns out to make a dent in the marketplace. And, I hope that Novell/SUSE do well with this release.

Looks like I'm going to have to find room on one of my boxes to give it a whirl. I'm pretty happy with Dapper. But, there are a couple of things that could use improvement. Sounds like SUSE is the the "full meal deal".

Kudos.

Reply Score: 2

Quark
by gypsumfantastic on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:25 UTC
gypsumfantastic
Member since:
2005-07-06

"ducktape"

?

Reply Score: 0

RE: Quark
by netpython on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:42 UTC in reply to "Quark"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

Tape and duck(hit the dirt) :-)

Reply Score: 1

v RE: yast gtk frontend.
by collinm on Wed 28th Jun 2006 15:50 UTC
RE[2]: yast gtk frontend.
by gypsumfantastic on Wed 28th Jun 2006 16:05 UTC in reply to "RE: yast gtk frontend."
gypsumfantastic Member since:
2005-07-06

And frankly, you're pretty damn ugly to begin with.

;p

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: Quark
by zsitvaij on Wed 28th Jun 2006 16:13 UTC
Is this..
by Trollstoi on Wed 28th Jun 2006 16:50 UTC
Trollstoi
Member since:
2005-11-11

Is this the revolutionary version of the distro that's supposed to finally adress all relevant issues in a desktop platform, as suggested a few articles ago? I'm interested in seeing what they will achieve.

Reply Score: 1

Why is it a "shameless" clone?
by drynwhyl on Wed 28th Jun 2006 17:02 UTC
drynwhyl
Member since:
2006-05-14

Why it has to be called a "shameless" clone?

Assumed that this live miniature windows functionality is useful, and became possible with advanced capabilities X didnt previously have, why do you think that developing a simple pager (for example, FVWM's) Linux has had for years and years, to include this new Xgl functionality in displayng miniature windows, is a "shameless" clone, I assume of Apple's Exposť?

I dont assume you would call, for example, a virtual desktop Apple develops some time, a "shameless clone" of available desktops, but would be happy to see it, since its useful, so why do you have to devaulate _anything_ that might resemble an apple feature on some another system, instead of just reporting neutrally?

Reply Score: 3

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Because Exposť is a clear-cut Apple feature, and the guys at Novell came up with this Xgl copy by, well, copying Appleś Exposť. This is no big deal; I don see how calling something "shameless" is a devaluation. It's better to steal something good than it is to create something bad, as we Dutch say. It's how the world works. And seriously, I don't care they took it from Apple.

Reply Score: 1

broch Member since:
2006-05-04

"Because Exposť is a clear-cut Apple feature, and the guys at Novell came up with this Xgl copy by, well, copying Appleś Exposť."

what xgl has to do with Expose?
expose = kompose for KDE or Compiz for Gnome,

xgl resembles Quartz extreme

Reply Score: 1

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

what xgl has to do with Expose?
expose = kompose for KDE or Compiz for Gnome,


First part about kompose is true, second about compiz is not.
Expose like feature is just one of many plugins in xgl, nothing more. Compiz is fully featured window manager, expose is not (it is just a window selector)

Reply Score: 1

broch Member since:
2006-05-04

Compiz is compositing window manager, which is not the same as WM. Compositing window manager is only responsible for composing effects in WM.
Try to run compiz without any real WM

Reply Score: 1

czubin Member since:
2005-12-31

> Compositing window manager is only responsible for composing effects in WM
> Try to run compiz without any real WM

You do know WM stands for "window manager"?
Compiz is a real WM

Reply Score: 2

broch Member since:
2006-05-04

"You do know WM stands for "window manager"?"
really?
o.k. try to run GUI with compiz only: no other WM, DE. By the way post pistures please.

Reply Score: 1

czubin Member since:
2005-12-31

Well next time reply to my comment and not yours.

here's your proof:
(the xterm is the one I started with and only used compiz)
http://czubin.ellisdesign.org/screenshots/compizonly.png

Reply Score: 1

RE: Why is it a "shameless" clone?
by somebody on Wed 28th Jun 2006 20:01 UTC in reply to "Why is it a "shameless" clone?"
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

I dont assume you would call, for example, a virtual desktop Apple develops some time, a "shameless clone" of available desktops

Actualy, I would.

- providing icons on Alt-Tab...? Windows did that for years. (improved with point&q though)
- Shadows under windows...? Hell, DOS had this
- Icons on dock...? Blatant copy of early gnome design and improved (as expose is improved on Xgl)
- Transparent windows...? Windows 2000?
- Expose is nothing but a copy of ordinary usual dvd menu where you select chapter.
- minimized windows in dock...? Enlightenment 0.16 desktop selector?

Face it, there is no originality in computing, only copying what it is present in nature for ages

should I name all???

Reply Score: 0

Novell & Real partners?
by duff on Wed 28th Jun 2006 17:27 UTC
duff
Member since:
2006-05-01

I noticed that SLED has the ReaAudio player installed and Banshee is compiled with Helix instead of gstreamer. Has there been a deal between these two companies?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Novell & Real partners?
by andrewg on Wed 28th Jun 2006 18:21 UTC in reply to "Novell & Real partners?"
andrewg Member since:
2005-07-06

Helix is used because they wanted users to be able to legally decode mp3's anywhere but importantly the USA. So they paid some money and everything is in place.

Reply Score: 4

Updates Post Release?
by HeLfReZ on Wed 28th Jun 2006 18:03 UTC
HeLfReZ
Member since:
2005-08-12

I wonder how they plan to handle all of the updates and such for the test and demo installs in the wild after the official release...I guess the easiest thing would be to offer online license purchases and have people just reactivate for updates post release...

Reply Score: 1

Who's talking trash now?
by Mystilleef on Wed 28th Jun 2006 19:06 UTC
Mystilleef
Member since:
2005-06-29

So the people who said SLED can/will take on Vista weren't bluffing afterall. :-)

Reply Score: 2

Sad
by segedunum on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:14 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

I know I'll probably get modded down here, mainly because people won't have a clue what I'm talking about, but can anyone honestly see this getting anywhere? Arguing about little desktop features like compiz, XGL, notifications etc. is so what doesn't need to be discussed it's unbelievable. Honestly, as good as any review might be, there are other factors at play here.

Absolutely no one outside of the people who frequent Linux and OS news sites will have any idea that SLED exists, what it is or why they should move their existing environments to it. Quite frankly, we're not that common. No one is going to get excited about this. Worse, even if some people did know they wouldn't be able to get it because it isn't preinstalled anywhere, and doesn't look like it, and those preinstallation sales would be very few because nothing has been done about the chicken and egg scenarios of a lack of a userbase and market for third-party software and hardware (and no infrastructure for it either). The only way this could possibly be achieved is if Novell give it away for free, but they can't do that because it's an enterprise product and they need to make some money from somewhere - fast.

If Novell were to start marketing this to their existing customers, who are getting fewer, Novell are going to get very short shrift - if they're polite. They have far bigger problems such as Netware and Novell's bungled migration to OES (or is it SLES?), which is not what these people need. Novell wants to add a desktop to that?!

And Novell's information page you get to - oh my. Another triumph for Novell's marketing:

http://www.novell.com/linux/sneakpeek/

WTF are those floating grey bars that obstruct the picture? And they move when you put your mouse across them.

1. Download the presentation. Click the link and get a nice page asking for all your personal information. Errr, no. **** off. I'd just like some information. Presumably you're desperate to sell this thing?

2. View the on-demand seminar. Whatever that is.

3. SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop Reviewer's Guide? What on Earth is this?! Yet another page asking for all my personal details.

4. Download a whitepaper. PDF.....Not even with clickable links in it...... How about just making a nice web page giving me relevant information? And not information about wibbly wobbly windows and the word 'intuitive' slapped all over it, but the bottom line about why I should move. Integration into a Windows environment? Well, that's why people have Windows and Office already. I don't want some poor man's Windows replacement we'll probably have difficulty with, only to have application programmers coming along later asking me about how to get an existing DCOM application working with our desktops or people asking about mobile phones. Basing completely on Windows compatibility is a mistake, and does harm.

5. How Novell customers are getting results from..... Another PDF! I don't particularly want to hear about other customers. I just want some info.

6. Read more info..... Hmmm. That's why I got here, and the info being linked to there doesn't answer point 4 in any way. The execs at Novell seem to have been seduced by some eye candy and having their own 'Vista'.

7. View the demos. Well, we all know that demos never work out the same way in real life once you actually get there.

8. Get training. I know nothing about the product yet. And I'm also confused about Suse Linux Enterprise, Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop and Suse Linux Enterprise Server. What is Suse Linux Enterprise and what happend to Open Enterprise Server, or heaven forbid, Netware? Assuming I know something about it of course.

So what does this tell us? We have a company that still has this attitude pervading through it of "Well, if the idiots can't be bothered to find out about it then they don't deserve to be our customers". This worked when they were the No. 1 networking OS company, but now they're, errr, not. Keep in mind that with the desktop this attitude of secrecy is combined with no preinstallations, not being given away for free, no existing userbase and no existing market. Brilliant.

Simply looks like Hovsepian is going to pull the rip-cord on his golden parachute.

Edited 2006-06-28 21:30

Reply Score: 3

RE: Sad
by Thom_Holwerda on Wed 28th Jun 2006 21:39 UTC in reply to "Sad"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Segedendum, Novell has a better chance at getting through to OEMs (the holy grail in the OS world) than any other Linux-backing company.

RedHat? They don't give a rat's ass about the home desktop, they want the server and corporate desktop (and itś pretty clear Novell in the future will aim SLED, or a cut-down version of it, for home users).

Mandrake? not even a shadow of its former glory. Close to irrelevant.

Canonical? Yes, Ubuntu is nice, but Canonical is new. If an OEM gets a letter from both Novell and Canonical; who are they more likely to listen to?

We all know you hate Novell, and you probably have reasons for doing so. However, at this point in time, this SLED thing, is Linux' best hope at competing with the MacOS and Vista. The bling factor, irrelevant as it may be to us OS fanatics (I mean, seriously, BeOS is still my number 1 OS), is all the rage to get people into the Linux game.

Don't you want a world where at your local computer shop Vista, Linux, and OSX run side-by-side, so the user can choose on merits instead of being forced into Windows or OSX? If you want it, it might be wise to let go of your own bias on Novell, and look beyond the company, and see the greater goal: to offer choice to customers. Novell, with all te fancy-schmancy stuff in SLED, are making huge strides in this area, and if they are able to deliver to OEMs BEFORE Vista comes out-- they may even have the chance of gaining a foothold-- no matter how small it may be, it might open the door to more choice in the world of operating systems. Remember, D-Day started with only a stretch of beach!

I'm usually not the one to go all preachy and stuff, but I can sure as hell tell you that if anyone I know shows interest in Linux, SLED is what I'll be showing him or her. Not Ubuntu, not Mandrake, or whatever.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Sad
by segedunum on Wed 28th Jun 2006 23:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Sad"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Segedendum, Novell has a better chance at getting through to OEMs (the holy grail in the OS world) than any other Linux-backing company.

With what? ISVs are going to ask 'where's the userbase and where's the market?' It isn't going to be there and it's simply going to pass them by. A lot of people who frequent places like this assume that Novell is this awesome corporate company who is going to buy off ISVs and it's all somehow going to happen. It isn't.

RedHat? They don't give a rat's ass about the home desktop, they want the server and corporate desktop

Well, they want the server and possibly the Unix workstation market. They seem clever enough to know that the desktop, in terms of replacing Windows systems, will never happen until some fundamental infrastructure and roadblocks around the desktop are removed.

(and itś pretty clear Novell in the future will aim SLED, or a cut-down version of it, for home users).

And without the aforementioned things in place I'm sure it will sell like hotcakes. That's if anyone can get a copy.

Canonical? Yes, Ubuntu is nice, but Canonical is new. If an OEM gets a letter from both Novell and Canonical; who are they more likely to listen to?

Neither of them. Seriously. Novell still being around will come as something of a shock to many OEMs.

Microsoft owns OEMs lock, stock and barrel (OEMs are over a barrel) and unless there is some external influence like an existing large userbase built up, an existing market and a wealth of third-party applications which gives OEMs the absolute confidence to leave Windows behind and give it to their customers, forget it. Microsoft ultimately decides whether a desktop OEM will make any money at all, and as long as the Windows userbase is so large and desktop Linux so insignificant they will pull away.

Novell are also the wrong company to be doing this. Having dealt with Novell, along with many others, we all know Novell couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag. Their presentation of SLED is indicative.

We all know you hate Novell, and you probably have reasons for doing so.

I don't hate Novell at all, and I know it may be shocking to encounter someone who might have actually dealt with them and sees their software in action without thinking he's some sort of zealot. I know they're focusing on all the wrong things, as many Novell using companies and environments know themselves - the people that pay them money in case you're wondering, not people on this site. Unless they concentrate on that first and foremost (the stuff that keeps them in business) there is no hope whatsoever for this desktop and no hope for them.

However, at this point in time, this SLED thing, is Linux' best hope at competing with the MacOS and Vista.

Based on what? Some 3D effects where people initially go "Oooooooo"? Then they install it, perhaps find some bugs and then ask about software availability, support for that DCOM back-end, mobile phone synchronisation......... There's a joke about hell and the fact that it's a great place, but when you get there it's awful.......The punchline is "That was just the demo".

Drawing people in with eye candy and bogus Windows compatibility, only to be scuppered by the practicalities and complexity of actually using it is the shortest way to completely kill desktop Linux. You can only get so far with that approach, and with SLED's approach all it can be is a Windows replacement. When it falls short of that requirement it will be dumped at the first opportunity. It's either got it on its own or it hasn't.

Don't you want a world where at your local computer shop Vista, Linux, and OSX run side-by-side, so the user can choose on merits instead of being forced into Windows or OSX?

Yer. And there's a hell of a lot of stuff, already pointed out, that has to happen before that store will even consider selling Linux. Hell, many computer stores think that Apple computers died out long ago.

If you want it, it might be wise to let go of your own bias on Novell, and look beyond the company, and see the greater goal: to offer choice to customers.

Could have been written by Hovsepian himself. Customers are only going to get a choice when several when several steps have been completed. You can't skip those steps.

Novell, with all te fancy-schmancy stuff in SLED, are making huge strides in this area

Fancy 3D effects, running around supporting proprietary protocols and formats without replacing them and nice packaging on the outside is not going to add up to choice when people begin to scratch away the veneer.

and if they are able to deliver to OEMs BEFORE Vista comes out-- they may even have the chance of gaining a foothold

And what's going to make OEMs ship it? Not some guarantee from Novell, that's for sure. Like many others, I now know you're hopelessly naive on this topic. See the OEM stuff above. This is what made all of Novell's comments on Vista being late hopelessly silly.

Remember, D-Day started with only a stretch of beach!

D-Day started with years of planning and various things being in place first, such as air superiority over Normandy - well in advance. Without that you've got a massacre on your hands.

I'm usually not the one to go all preachy and stuff, but I can sure as hell tell you that if anyone I know shows interest in Linux, SLED is what I'll be showing him or her. Not Ubuntu, not Mandrake, or whatever.

And once they scratch away that fake wood veneer they'll find all the same problems.

Edited 2006-06-28 23:54

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Sad
by grat on Thu 29th Jun 2006 00:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Sad"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

*sigh*... It's a sad day.

I find myself in (partial) agreement with segedunum. Not regarding SLED 10, which is probably the best showing anyone's made yet for a corporate desktop, and I'm impressed that Thom is warming up to it, in spite of the lack of changelogs. ;)

But Novell's presentation is horrific.

Downloading a whitepaper requires me signing up for a sales call? Excuse me? And the fact that it doesn't even recognize my NOVELL LOGIN, which for years has been subscribed to Novell Developernet, is totally inexcusable. Having to download a PDF at all is equally sloppy-- I know it's tough for the web guys to translate the marketspeak into html, but it's not THAT tough.

Starting from there, I pondered Novell's lineup of OS's. We'll skip the services they offer in addition, but for now, just look at the OS products. We have essentially 4 products relevant to the discussion:

openSuSE -- Enthusiast. Open source. Supported well if you buy a box, available for free. Good community (Box version is "SUSE Linux", which should clear everything up, yes?).

SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 -- Easy-- This is The Real Thing. Enterprise-ready desktop, with management features built in, designed, from the ground up (we're told) to be a friendly, cost effective replacement for Windows machines in some (50-60%) situations.

SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10 -- Well, obviously, this is the server that goes with SLED-- Enterprise ready, heavy support for virtulization, rock solid distribution based on their other SuSE products, this is what you want in your datacenter.

Open Enterprise Server ?? -- Err... Ummm... well... the previous "open" product was kinda lightweight, designed for enthusiasts, programmers, that sorta thing... so... uhhh... this is more of the same?

Now, in my opinion, SLES 10 is more of an SMB type product-- suitable for small and medium sites, useful for putting up a virtual server farm, good for serving web apps, and lightweight file services (yes, I know 'lightweight' can be debated endlessly).

OES, on the other hand, takes all the services that ran on NetWare, and provides them on a linux, or (for now) a NetWare kernel. This is the enterprise product-- Zenworks, Identity Management, iPrint, iFolder, even Groupwise for those so inclined.

But the naming convention leaves most people scratching their heads. The website doesn't help. I read articles written by people who aren't even aware of what OES is, or what SLES is-- As far as they know, Novell has two types of business: NetWare (dying) and Linux (slow).

They're wrong, but Novell isn't correcting them.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Sad
by EnviroTO on Fri 30th Jun 2006 05:41 UTC in reply to "Sad"
EnviroTO Member since:
2006-06-30

> WTF are those floating grey bars that obstruct the
> picture? And they move when you put your mouse across
> them.

It's a sneak peek... you are peeking through the blinds.

> Download the presentation. Click the link and get a
> nice page asking for all your personal information.

I agree, giving away contact info should not be required to find out information about a product. For the beta download knowing who is downloading might make some sense if there is no method of deactivating the beta (since this is the pay version).

> View the on-demand seminar. Whatever that is.

What's wrong with it? It is a slide presentation.

> SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop Reviewer's Guide?
> What on Earth is this?! Yet another page asking for
> all my personal details.

Same argument re-iterated. Shouldn't need to give away personal info just to find out about a product.

> Download a whitepaper. PDF.....Not even with
> clickable links in it...... How about just making
> a nice web page giving me relevant information?

A webpage might be better but the PDF works too. There is an index and adobe has a search feature. Perhaps there should be both and based on the fact Novell has a website with features and benefits, overview, etc for SLES 9 I would imagine it is coming when the product is actually released.

> Integration into a Windows environment?

The world is dominated by Windows... if you are making a piece of computer software or hardware I think integration is quite relevant.

> people asking about mobile phone

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail.jsp?globalObjectId=...

http://www.novell.com/products/groupwise/mobileserver.html

> How Novell customers are getting results from.....
> Another PDF! I don't particularly want to hear
> about other customers. I just want some info.

Some people like to know if any companies are using a solution. Client lists and success stories are common on many corporate websites. Once the product is released they will probably have a web poage rather than PDF as they do for their other products.

> Read more info..... Hmmm. That's why I got here, and
> the info being linked to there doesn't answer point
> 4 in any way.

Point 4 rambled on about PDFs... do you mean why you would use Suse Linux? Yes, Novell doesn't market itself well and somehow misses out on explaining why people should get Suse Linux versus another solution. Hopefully the marketing improves because most of the marketing misses making comparisons to alternatives and speaks in generalities. Of course the reasons do exist if Linux companies can get their own "Get the facts" campaign going.

> View the demos. Well, we all know that demos never
> work out the same way in real life once you actually
> get there.

You don't like a demo? Well you can go to a MS or Apple convention and boo the stage because demos are used by everyone.

> What is Suse Linux Enterprise
> and what happend to Open Enterprise Server, or
> heaven forbid, Netware?

Why would the Suse Linux Enterprise demo preview pages tell you about Open Enterprise Server or Netware? A MS Office page isn't going to tell me what's going on with MS Money or heaven forbid MS Bob.

Novell's marketing has been bad for a long time but your statements don't seem very unbiased... it seems more like you have something against Novell already. I'm guessing you are one of the Netware die hards.

Reply Score: 2

SLED
by Umbra on Thu 29th Jun 2006 00:34 UTC
Umbra
Member since:
2006-03-06

System requirements ????

What are the system requirements for SLED ??

What does it take to run decently ?

??? - Stationay system: - is 700 mhz TB enough, 512 mb ram, 32 mb video card,

??? - Laptop: 1300 mhz mobile Centrino ? 512 mb ram, with 32 mb video card (example: Thinkpad 40R)

PowerPC ?? - (example: PowerMac G3 350 mhz) ??


SLED looks like a hit to me.

Congratulations Nowell !!!

Reply Score: 1

Im sad
by k9_engineer on Thu 29th Jun 2006 01:05 UTC
k9_engineer
Member since:
2006-02-04

I really looked forward to this, itched even. almost coveted having it and once it is up and running...same ole s@#$, have updates waiting and I click and the updates like a good boy and this is what I get:
Unresolved dependencies:
Updating zmd-7.1.1.0-39.38.i586[System packages] to zmd-7.1.1.0-39.40.i586[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:libzypp-1576-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:novell-groupwise-gwclient-1656-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:syslog-ng-1523-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:libgsf-1654-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:scim-1634-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:beagle-1620-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:libzypp-1602-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:gnome-cups-manager-1477-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:evolution-1614-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:kdebase3-1651-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:f-spot-1623-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:yast2-trans-bg-1628-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Installing patch:libzypp-1658-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of yast2-installation == 2.13.132.1-0.2 for patch:libzypp-1658-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of yast2-trans-ro == 2.13.6-0.2 for patch:yast2-trans-bg-1628-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of f-spot == 0.1.11-16.24 for patch:f-spot-1623-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of kdebase3 == 3.5.1-69.29 for patch:kdebase3-1651-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of evolution-pilot == 2.6.0-49.20 for patch:evolution-1614-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of gnome-cups-manager == 0.32cvs20060120-33.7 for patch:gnome-cups-manager-1477-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of yast2-xml == 2.13.2-1.3 for patch:libzypp-1602-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of beagle == 0.2.3-40.24 for patch:beagle-1620-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of scim-devel == 1.4.4-23.4 for patch:scim-1634-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of libgsf-devel == 1.13.99-13.4 for patch:libgsf-1654-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of syslog-ng == 1.6.8-20.3 for patch:syslog-ng-1523-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of novell-groupwise-gwclient == 7.0.1-20060613 for patch:novell-groupwise-gwclient-1656-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of yast2-trans-ko == 2.13.5-0.2 for patch:libzypp-1576-0.noarch[SLED10-Updates]
Establishing atom:zmd-7.1.1.0-39.40.i586[SLED10-Updates]
There are no installable providers of libzypp-zmd-backend >= 7.1.1.0-42.40 for zmd-7.1.1.0-39.40.i586[SLED10-Updates]
Help

Reply Score: 1

RE: Im sad
by thebluesgnr on Thu 29th Jun 2006 02:26 UTC in reply to "Im sad"
thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

Check the md5sums.

Reply Score: 1

Based on gnome 2.12
by neutron on Thu 29th Jun 2006 02:58 UTC
neutron
Member since:
2005-07-08

It's previously mentioned that SLED 10 is based on gnome 2.12. However gnome 2.14 was actually the first gnome version that had huge performance improvements. Does this mean that none of those improvements have made it to SLED 10?

Reply Score: 1

RE: Based on gnome 2.12
by JMcCarthy on Thu 29th Jun 2006 05:49 UTC in reply to "Based on gnome 2.12"
JMcCarthy Member since:
2005-08-12

Hard to tell.

SLED feels so .. fast, even up against 2.14. I could entirely be placebo though.

It's possible a lot of the improvements were moved back.

Reply Score: 1

Better?
by Hakime on Thu 29th Jun 2006 02:59 UTC
Hakime
Member since:
2005-11-16

"In fact, Xgl's implementation of Exposť is better than Apple's; in Xgl, the windows kind of 'bounce' towards their respective positions in the grid, giving the windows a much more physical feeling than in the MacOS."

This is really not true!! If you consider the eye candy effect, maybe yes, but that's just eye candy.

In terms of user experience and usefulness this ripp off of Expose is not even close. Yes you can like in Expose see all the windows in once, but that's it, you can not like in Expose "expose" only the opened windows of one given application and you can not like in Expose clean your screen of all the opened windows to access your desktop. You can't also tab through the Exposed windows to navigate through each application opened windows.

And most of all you can not drag and drop like in Expose which is really where Expose shines. Not only with Expose you can drag and drop from a "Expose cleaned" desktop to a another window like you would do to drag an attachement file from the desktop to Mail for example, but you can also Expose all the windows, go to the window where the element that you want to drag is, pick it up, Expose again all the windows, drag to the window where you want to drop the file, Expose brings up the window and that's it drop!!!! This is very powerful and useful. It makes drag and drop files between a lot of opened windows much faster and easier. I think this is here a very clever implementation to show how Expose can be used.

Expose goes far beyond of what Novell proposes in their ripp off. I dont care that they came up with a better eye candy effect, what i care about is usuability, and in that matter Apple Expose is far better than any other ripp off.

Even if i think that Novel is doing well by bringing nice user features to Linux, it seems that they don't do anything else than copying the way Apple uses hardware accelerated desktop and OpenGL rendering. The cube effect is an example, and the zoom effect to zoom in your desktop (useful for disabled people who can not see properly) is another one.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Better?
by dumbkiwi on Thu 29th Jun 2006 03:46 UTC in reply to "Better?"
dumbkiwi Member since:
2006-01-02

Regarding the "cube", see desk3d, a cube desktop switcher that was first registered as a project on sourceforge on 2002-08-08. This concept has been around for a while in the linux world.

And since when did Apple invent the concept of magnifying the desktop for accessibility?

I can live with your first claim, but the other two are off the mark.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Better!
by Phoenix49 on Thu 29th Jun 2006 09:11 UTC in reply to "Better?"
Phoenix49 Member since:
2006-03-28

You can switch to another side of desktop to clean it. You can drag windows to another side of cube, you can place windows on the edge of cube, so you can access files in that folder from both sides of cube. Expose is just another thing, they has different features. And they are implemented differently. Please don't blame XGL, if u never used it more than 5 mins.

Reply Score: 1

CD1 251mb instead of 650??
by neutron on Thu 29th Jun 2006 08:08 UTC
neutron
Member since:
2005-07-08

Hey everyone I need some help!

I just downloaded CD1 for the 3rd! time and it stops EVERYTIME at 251 mb. It just says it has finished the download and I get an iso of 251 mb, although the link on the novell page says it should be 650.7mb.

I've tried it with both internet explorer and firefox, it doesn't make a difference ;)

Anyone else experienced the same?

/edit
I also downloaded CD 2 and 3 and they were fine btw..

Edited 2006-06-29 08:11

Reply Score: 1

Awesome Distro
by anand78 on Thu 29th Jun 2006 15:29 UTC
anand78
Member since:
2005-07-07

I downloaded the CD ISO's, tried to make a DVD by OpenSUSE method, didn't work. Anyways 5 CD's later I had SLED installed on my laptop. Enabling XGL was easy, I used # tiny-nvidia-installer --update, went to control center and enablled XGL . Any new distro I have to play with the bytecode to enable it, this was nice it came enabled already. If somehow the lawyers figure out how to include closed source drivers it would certainly give Windows & Mac a competition.

Reply Score: 1

Tried it myself
by Ronald Vos on Thu 29th Jun 2006 19:07 UTC
Ronald Vos
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm pretty impressed I must say! Everything feels so...integrated. It's like there's no duck tape ;)

What surprised me a lot more, was that SLED even auto-detected my wireless usb dongle! That's a Linux first for me (but I have to admit that lately I haven't been able to try a lot of distros, since my hardware set-up seems to crash a lot of installers; PC-BSD's as well). I haven't been able to configure it properly yet, but hey, it's recognized at least ;)

Just one thing: omg, what's wrong with Gnome? When I tried to have 2 applications plus the filebrowser access the same directory containing 3300 images on my portable HD via USB 1.0, the system basically froze up, and I couldn't even click the 'my computer' icon. Or: I could click it, but all my clicks would be registered simultaneously, after a minute or two.

I like Eye-of-Gnome, but I like the fade-over between images with Novell's (Findit?) image browser more. Too bad the rest of the interface of the Novell image browser sucks ass; no clearly marked short-cuts, no help, lack of controls.

I like how Firefox comes with Flash, but the default player Totem not being able to play any movie by default had me scratching my head.

Reply Score: 1