OSNews

Dam! You have beaten me to it =)
Actually understanding YaST makes one appreciate it alot more. Then you understand why it isn't super fast.

note* YaST has a backend/frontend system allowing you to write a template once and display it with whatever you want.. ncursus, qt and gtk being worked upon.

Edited 2006-06-28 13:42

Ah, that's great to know. Thanks!

Well, what exactly is the problem with the observation?

Is it not true that it can be installed on computers most people already have?

Or is it not true that that is an advantage?

"SLED has all the bling and integration at the application level that the MacOS offers;"

Tell me how can Novell be better at integration than a company making hardware AND software ...

Tell me how can Novell be better at integration than a company making hardware AND software ...

What part of "at the application level" don't you understand?

Perhaps its that you do not have to make (or rather commission) the hardware in order to deliver "integration"? Perhaps this is just a myth? Perhaps it really doesn't matter that much for the feel of the OS what sort of graphics card or hard drive or memory chips you have or who made them? Perhaps the OS designer/supplier just has to make sure the drivers are there and the hardware recognised...?

It is the right question to ask, but it should not be rhetorical. How can it be done? By working smart: making sure you do good hardware recognition and configuration during the installation process. If you are an OEM, you can support a smaller range of hardware because what you choose to ship is limited and predictable. Then you do it by testing your chosen shipping configuration and making sure it works properly before you order a couple million.

This is really not very mysterious, and putting a specific brand label on the outside of the box does not facilitate it one way or the other.

Integration does not benefit from making the hardware, only knowledge of the hardware benefits integration. Manufacturer is unimportant.

"SLED has all the bling and integration at the application level that the MacOS offers;"

But does it include the goatse desktop switcher (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1221/3225/1600/leopard_img02.png)? I know the screenshot isn't real but I'm almost willing to pay a small bounty if somebody implements it.

Edited 2006-06-28 14:59

Nope, it does not.
But it's not impossible, making plugins for compiz(the eyecandy) is very easy. Although you need a good deal of C etc knowledge.

No, it's duct tape or duck tape. It was originally developed to protect ammunition cases from water.

Actually, "Duck" tape is also correct. The tape that we know as duct tape was originally a waterproof (hence duck) tape to seal boxes. It's actually lousy for sealing ducts.

Duck tape is a trademark, so saying it is like calling petroleum jelly Vaseline.

http://www.octanecreative.com/ducttape/duckvsduct.html
http://www.duckproducts.com/

it's SUSE Enterprise Linux Desktop 10, notice the 'Enterprise' part of the name.

Enterprise customers don't believe in free stuff, you have to charge them if you want them to try your stuff.

It's the same story for Fedora Core and RedHat Enterpise Linux. Again, notice the 'Enterprise' part in the name.

This one's supposed to be aimed at the enterprise, so you get a lot less apps, but better integration.
Suse (pro) is the swiss army knife, offering everything including the kitchen sink, but at the cost of integration. So if you're someone who wants a simple os to browse, chat and edit documents with Sled 'could' be a better choice. I hope we'll get a more indepth review in a week or 2 when Thom's had more chance to play with it.

I assume you can still install the kitchen sink if you want to.

BTW, surprisingly, you can't download it if you're a resident of Afghanistan. So much for wanting to help rebuild the country

Anyway, practical question of saving plastic and time: do you really need all 5 installation cds? It seems a bit excessive...can I do with just the first 2?

Anyway, practical question of saving plastic and time: do you really need all 5 installation cds? It seems a bit excessive...can I do with just the first 2?

It's in the review: you need 4 CDs for the default installation. I did not burn the 4th CD, however, so the 2 packages from CD4 are currently not installed on my system (it works fine though). I'll burn disc 4 and 5 when I've bought new CD-Rs.

No you dont, you only need 3 cd's for the default since I only burned 3.

If it's anything like the normal suse the first few will have the installer and rpm's and the last few cd's will have the source packages. So with a bit of luck you'll get by with just the first 2.

Edit: never mind *points up to Thom's comment*

Edited 2006-06-28 14:46

Well using SuSe on a daily usage and I feel it's missing way too muy..., sure I can make everything work but I need something which works not only for me but everyone else (aimed as a simple workstation).

That said, the clean ups and extra usability Novell put into this just might make it.

So far most reviews are good.

No real difference but why not? with SLED you get a (big and good) printed manual and you support novell, a company that is investing a lot in linux. You have a choice, you can buy it (SLED) or have it for free (OpenSUSE)... just don't blame me if I choose to support Novell.

Tape and duck(hit the dirt) :-)

And frankly, you're pretty damn ugly to begin with.

;p

Because Exposé is a clear-cut Apple feature, and the guys at Novell came up with this Xgl copy by, well, copying Appleś Exposé. This is no big deal; I don see how calling something "shameless" is a devaluation. It's better to steal something good than it is to create something bad, as we Dutch say. It's how the world works. And seriously, I don't care they took it from Apple.

"Because Exposé is a clear-cut Apple feature, and the guys at Novell came up with this Xgl copy by, well, copying Appleś Exposé."

what xgl has to do with Expose?
expose = kompose for KDE or Compiz for Gnome,

xgl resembles Quartz extreme

what xgl has to do with Expose?
expose = kompose for KDE or Compiz for Gnome,

First part about kompose is true, second about compiz is not.
Expose like feature is just one of many plugins in xgl, nothing more. Compiz is fully featured window manager, expose is not (it is just a window selector)

Compiz is compositing window manager, which is not the same as WM. Compositing window manager is only responsible for composing effects in WM.
Try to run compiz without any real WM

I dont assume you would call, for example, a virtual desktop Apple develops some time, a "shameless clone" of available desktops

Actualy, I would.

- providing icons on Alt-Tab...? Windows did that for years. (improved with point&q though)
- Shadows under windows...? Hell, DOS had this
- Icons on dock...? Blatant copy of early gnome design and improved (as expose is improved on Xgl)
- Transparent windows...? Windows 2000?
- Expose is nothing but a copy of ordinary usual dvd menu where you select chapter.
- minimized windows in dock...? Enlightenment 0.16 desktop selector?

Face it, there is no originality in computing, only copying what it is present in nature for ages

should I name all???

Helix is used because they wanted users to be able to legally decode mp3's anywhere but importantly the USA. So they paid some money and everything is in place.

Segedendum, Novell has a better chance at getting through to OEMs (the holy grail in the OS world) than any other Linux-backing company.

RedHat? They don't give a rat's ass about the home desktop, they want the server and corporate desktop (and itś pretty clear Novell in the future will aim SLED, or a cut-down version of it, for home users).

Mandrake? not even a shadow of its former glory. Close to irrelevant.

Canonical? Yes, Ubuntu is nice, but Canonical is new. If an OEM gets a letter from both Novell and Canonical; who are they more likely to listen to?

We all know you hate Novell, and you probably have reasons for doing so. However, at this point in time, this SLED thing, is Linux' best hope at competing with the MacOS and Vista. The bling factor, irrelevant as it may be to us OS fanatics (I mean, seriously, BeOS is still my number 1 OS), is all the rage to get people into the Linux game.

Don't you want a world where at your local computer shop Vista, Linux, and OSX run side-by-side, so the user can choose on merits instead of being forced into Windows or OSX? If you want it, it might be wise to let go of your own bias on Novell, and look beyond the company, and see the greater goal: to offer choice to customers. Novell, with all te fancy-schmancy stuff in SLED, are making huge strides in this area, and if they are able to deliver to OEMs BEFORE Vista comes out-- they may even have the chance of gaining a foothold-- no matter how small it may be, it might open the door to more choice in the world of operating systems. Remember, D-Day started with only a stretch of beach!

I'm usually not the one to go all preachy and stuff, but I can sure as hell tell you that if anyone I know shows interest in Linux, SLED is what I'll be showing him or her. Not Ubuntu, not Mandrake, or whatever.

Segedendum, Novell has a better chance at getting through to OEMs (the holy grail in the OS world) than any other Linux-backing company.

With what? ISVs are going to ask 'where's the userbase and where's the market?' It isn't going to be there and it's simply going to pass them by. A lot of people who frequent places like this assume that Novell is this awesome corporate company who is going to buy off ISVs and it's all somehow going to happen. It isn't.

RedHat? They don't give a rat's ass about the home desktop, they want the server and corporate desktop

Well, they want the server and possibly the Unix workstation market. They seem clever enough to know that the desktop, in terms of replacing Windows systems, will never happen until some fundamental infrastructure and roadblocks around the desktop are removed.

(and itś pretty clear Novell in the future will aim SLED, or a cut-down version of it, for home users).

And without the aforementioned things in place I'm sure it will sell like hotcakes. That's if anyone can get a copy.

Canonical? Yes, Ubuntu is nice, but Canonical is new. If an OEM gets a letter from both Novell and Canonical; who are they more likely to listen to?

Neither of them. Seriously. Novell still being around will come as something of a shock to many OEMs.

Microsoft owns OEMs lock, stock and barrel (OEMs are over a barrel) and unless there is some external influence like an existing large userbase built up, an existing market and a wealth of third-party applications which gives OEMs the absolute confidence to leave Windows behind and give it to their customers, forget it. Microsoft ultimately decides whether a desktop OEM will make any money at all, and as long as the Windows userbase is so large and desktop Linux so insignificant they will pull away.

Novell are also the wrong company to be doing this. Having dealt with Novell, along with many others, we all know Novell couldn't negotiate their way out of a paper bag. Their presentation of SLED is indicative.

We all know you hate Novell, and you probably have reasons for doing so.

I don't hate Novell at all, and I know it may be shocking to encounter someone who might have actually dealt with them and sees their software in action without thinking he's some sort of zealot. I know they're focusing on all the wrong things, as many Novell using companies and environments know themselves - the people that pay them money in case you're wondering, not people on this site. Unless they concentrate on that first and foremost (the stuff that keeps them in business) there is no hope whatsoever for this desktop and no hope for them.

However, at this point in time, this SLED thing, is Linux' best hope at competing with the MacOS and Vista.

Based on what? Some 3D effects where people initially go "Oooooooo"? Then they install it, perhaps find some bugs and then ask about software availability, support for that DCOM back-end, mobile phone synchronisation......... There's a joke about hell and the fact that it's a great place, but when you get there it's awful.......The punchline is "That was just the demo".

Drawing people in with eye candy and bogus Windows compatibility, only to be scuppered by the practicalities and complexity of actually using it is the shortest way to completely kill desktop Linux. You can only get so far with that approach, and with SLED's approach all it can be is a Windows replacement. When it falls short of that requirement it will be dumped at the first opportunity. It's either got it on its own or it hasn't.

Don't you want a world where at your local computer shop Vista, Linux, and OSX run side-by-side, so the user can choose on merits instead of being forced into Windows or OSX?

Yer. And there's a hell of a lot of stuff, already pointed out, that has to happen before that store will even consider selling Linux. Hell, many computer stores think that Apple computers died out long ago.

If you want it, it might be wise to let go of your own bias on Novell, and look beyond the company, and see the greater goal: to offer choice to customers.

Could have been written by Hovsepian himself. Customers are only going to get a choice when several when several steps have been completed. You can't skip those steps.

Novell, with all te fancy-schmancy stuff in SLED, are making huge strides in this area

Fancy 3D effects, running around supporting proprietary protocols and formats without replacing them and nice packaging on the outside is not going to add up to choice when people begin to scratch away the veneer.

and if they are able to deliver to OEMs BEFORE Vista comes out-- they may even have the chance of gaining a foothold

And what's going to make OEMs ship it? Not some guarantee from Novell, that's for sure. Like many others, I now know you're hopelessly naive on this topic. See the OEM stuff above. This is what made all of Novell's comments on Vista being late hopelessly silly.

Remember, D-Day started with only a stretch of beach!

D-Day started with years of planning and various things being in place first, such as air superiority over Normandy - well in advance. Without that you've got a massacre on your hands.

I'm usually not the one to go all preachy and stuff, but I can sure as hell tell you that if anyone I know shows interest in Linux, SLED is what I'll be showing him or her. Not Ubuntu, not Mandrake, or whatever.

And once they scratch away that fake wood veneer they'll find all the same problems.

Edited 2006-06-28 23:54

*sigh*... It's a sad day.

I find myself in (partial) agreement with segedunum. Not regarding SLED 10, which is probably the best showing anyone's made yet for a corporate desktop, and I'm impressed that Thom is warming up to it, in spite of the lack of changelogs.

But Novell's presentation is horrific.

Downloading a whitepaper requires me signing up for a sales call? Excuse me? And the fact that it doesn't even recognize my NOVELL LOGIN, which for years has been subscribed to Novell Developernet, is totally inexcusable. Having to download a PDF at all is equally sloppy-- I know it's tough for the web guys to translate the marketspeak into html, but it's not THAT tough.

Starting from there, I pondered Novell's lineup of OS's. We'll skip the services they offer in addition, but for now, just look at the OS products. We have essentially 4 products relevant to the discussion:

openSuSE -- Enthusiast. Open source. Supported well if you buy a box, available for free. Good community (Box version is "SUSE Linux", which should clear everything up, yes?).

SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 -- Easy-- This is The Real Thing. Enterprise-ready desktop, with management features built in, designed, from the ground up (we're told) to be a friendly, cost effective replacement for Windows machines in some (50-60%) situations.

SuSE Linux Enterprise Server 10 -- Well, obviously, this is the server that goes with SLED-- Enterprise ready, heavy support for virtulization, rock solid distribution based on their other SuSE products, this is what you want in your datacenter.

Open Enterprise Server ?? -- Err... Ummm... well... the previous "open" product was kinda lightweight, designed for enthusiasts, programmers, that sorta thing... so... uhhh... this is more of the same?

Now, in my opinion, SLES 10 is more of an SMB type product-- suitable for small and medium sites, useful for putting up a virtual server farm, good for serving web apps, and lightweight file services (yes, I know 'lightweight' can be debated endlessly).

OES, on the other hand, takes all the services that ran on NetWare, and provides them on a linux, or (for now) a NetWare kernel. This is the enterprise product-- Zenworks, Identity Management, iPrint, iFolder, even Groupwise for those so inclined.

But the naming convention leaves most people scratching their heads. The website doesn't help. I read articles written by people who aren't even aware of what OES is, or what SLES is-- As far as they know, Novell has two types of business: NetWare (dying) and Linux (slow).

They're wrong, but Novell isn't correcting them.

> WTF are those floating grey bars that obstruct the
> picture? And they move when you put your mouse across
> them.

It's a sneak peek... you are peeking through the blinds.

> Download the presentation. Click the link and get a
> nice page asking for all your personal information.

I agree, giving away contact info should not be required to find out information about a product. For the beta download knowing who is downloading might make some sense if there is no method of deactivating the beta (since this is the pay version).

> View the on-demand seminar. Whatever that is.

What's wrong with it? It is a slide presentation.

> SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop Reviewer's Guide?
> What on Earth is this?! Yet another page asking for
> all my personal details.

Same argument re-iterated. Shouldn't need to give away personal info just to find out about a product.

> Download a whitepaper. PDF.....Not even with
> clickable links in it...... How about just making
> a nice web page giving me relevant information?

A webpage might be better but the PDF works too. There is an index and adobe has a search feature. Perhaps there should be both and based on the fact Novell has a website with features and benefits, overview, etc for SLES 9 I would imagine it is coming when the product is actually released.

> Integration into a Windows environment?

The world is dominated by Windows... if you are making a piece of computer software or hardware I think integration is quite relevant.

> people asking about mobile phone

http://www.motorola.com/mediacenter/news/detail.jsp?globalObjectId=...

http://www.novell.com/products/groupwise/mobileserver.html

> How Novell customers are getting results from.....
> Another PDF! I don't particularly want to hear
> about other customers. I just want some info.

Some people like to know if any companies are using a solution. Client lists and success stories are common on many corporate websites. Once the product is released they will probably have a web poage rather than PDF as they do for their other products.

> Read more info..... Hmmm. That's why I got here, and
> the info being linked to there doesn't answer point
> 4 in any way.

Point 4 rambled on about PDFs... do you mean why you would use Suse Linux? Yes, Novell doesn't market itself well and somehow misses out on explaining why people should get Suse Linux versus another solution. Hopefully the marketing improves because most of the marketing misses making comparisons to alternatives and speaks in generalities. Of course the reasons do exist if Linux companies can get their own "Get the facts" campaign going.

> View the demos. Well, we all know that demos never
> work out the same way in real life once you actually
> get there.

You don't like a demo? Well you can go to a MS or Apple convention and boo the stage because demos are used by everyone.

> What is Suse Linux Enterprise
> and what happend to Open Enterprise Server, or
> heaven forbid, Netware?

Why would the Suse Linux Enterprise demo preview pages tell you about Open Enterprise Server or Netware? A MS Office page isn't going to tell me what's going on with MS Money or heaven forbid MS Bob.

Novell's marketing has been bad for a long time but your statements don't seem very unbiased... it seems more like you have something against Novell already. I'm guessing you are one of the Netware die hards.

Check the md5sums.

Hard to tell.

SLED feels so .. fast, even up against 2.14. I could entirely be placebo though.

It's possible a lot of the improvements were moved back.

Regarding the "cube", see desk3d, a cube desktop switcher that was first registered as a project on sourceforge on 2002-08-08. This concept has been around for a while in the linux world.

And since when did Apple invent the concept of magnifying the desktop for accessibility?

I can live with your first claim, but the other two are off the mark.

You can switch to another side of desktop to clean it. You can drag windows to another side of cube, you can place windows on the edge of cube, so you can access files in that folder from both sides of cube. Expose is just another thing, they has different features. And they are implemented differently. Please don't blame XGL, if u never used it more than 5 mins.