Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 13th Jul 2006 17:12 UTC, submitted by Slashdot
ReactOS NeoSmart has reviewed ReactOS. "ReactOS is a brilliant idea at heart, and it has come a long way in the past couple of years. It is integral for there to be more than one choice for alternate operating systems, since Windows isn't the best and Linux isn't for everyone." And yes, there are screenshots to blindely stare at too.
Order by: Score:
MS dropping earlier windows versions
by GreatBunzinni on Thu 13th Jul 2006 17:31 UTC
GreatBunzinni
Member since:
2005-10-31

So it seems that maybe the public may already have the solution to all those worries about MS dropping the support for their early windows versions. Let's hope that this project holds out.

Reply Score: 2

Celerate Member since:
2005-06-29

Don't count your chickens before they hatch, I've been keeping an eye on ReactOS for years and from an end user point of view it is no replacement for Windows 98 yet. ReactOS needs a lot more work, yet the fact that an OSS project has come this far is encouraging considering that they're reverse engineering a large product that's been around for years.

As it is now the supported software list is growing but still small, and I haven't seen any driver compatibility yet. I'm still hoping for the day when it's at least as compatible with Windows software and drivers as Windows 98, but I have to be honest with myself and admit that might not happen for several years yet.

Reply Score: 5

And the gallery...
by qroon on Thu 13th Jul 2006 17:55 UTC
qroon
Member since:
2005-10-21

... goes kablam!

Warning: mysql_pconnect(): User neosmart_gall has already more than 'max_user_connections' active connections in /home/neosmart/public_html/gallery/lib/adodb/drivers/adodb-mysql.inc.p hp on line 373

Anyway, I'm hoping that this project can reach the level of, at least the functionality of NT4.

Edited 2006-07-13 17:58

Reply Score: 1

RE: And the gallery...
by frik85 on Thu 13th Jul 2006 18:48 UTC in reply to "And the gallery..."
frik85 Member since:
2006-01-26

Anyway, I'm hoping that this project can reach the level of, at least the functionality of NT4.

-> Win NT4/2000/XP/Vista

ReactOS aims to achieve complete binary compatibility with both applications and device drivers meant for NT and XP operating systems, by using a similar architecture and providing a complete and equivalent public interface.

Reply Score: 2

Trying
by sbenitezb on Thu 13th Jul 2006 18:01 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

I'm going to try it now in QEmu. I have some Windows applications I could better run locally than with RDP.

Reply Score: 1

bye bye
by sn0n on Thu 13th Jul 2006 18:23 UTC
sn0n
Member since:
2005-08-09

their host has suspended their account.

Reply Score: 1

no screenshots :( .......
by r2d2d3d4d5 on Thu 13th Jul 2006 18:24 UTC
r2d2d3d4d5
Member since:
2005-12-31

...... and I was looking forward to some eye candy.


"This Account Has Been Suspended"

Reply Score: 1

RE: no screenshots :( .......
by frik85 on Thu 13th Jul 2006 19:26 UTC in reply to "no screenshots :( ......."
frik85 Member since:
2006-01-26

NeoSmart ReactOS article mirror:
http://neosmart.net.nyud.net:8080/blog/archives/220

(does work but is a bit slow)

Reply Score: 2

Encouraging
by shadow_x99 on Thu 13th Jul 2006 18:37 UTC
shadow_x99
Member since:
2006-05-12

I think that ReactOS is encouraging... I'd like to have a non-bloated Window-Like OS someday... The fact that it will have binary-compatibility with Windows is another great fact...

But it's not ready yet... I will try it though on one of my old box just to see :o)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Encouraging
by suryad on Thu 13th Jul 2006 19:24 UTC in reply to "Encouraging"
suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

I am curious...not flaming or trolling or anything. But when you say bloat are you talking about Vista or are you talking about XP? I would like to know what you would consider to be bloat on XP actually. Because I use nLite and I take out most of the stuff and only leave stuff that I use. usually an XP install cd is around 550 mb. My install cd with all updates and everything endsup only being a 189 mb. The stuff I stripped out that I consider to be bloat like Windows Movie Maker, Tour XP, bunch of drivers and apps I never use etc etc. Thanks for any response.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Encouraging
by shadow_x99 on Thu 13th Jul 2006 20:26 UTC in reply to "RE: Encouraging"
shadow_x99 Member since:
2006-05-12

I was talking about Vista. I tried Beta 2 of Vista, and it's a realy complete piece of bloatware. WinXP is not that bad, but it can be improved with 3rd party apps.

Sorry for the confusion

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Encouraging
by suryad on Thu 13th Jul 2006 23:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Encouraging"
suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

No worries. I totally agree Vista seems like 40% new worthwhile under-the-hood features and 60% bloat...and I am being generous.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Encouraging
by kaiwai on Fri 14th Jul 2006 01:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Encouraging"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

One mans bloat is another mans feature; its sad though that half the problems MIcrosoft is facing, is due to lazy software vendors who are demanding backwards compatibility so that they don't have to spend a little profit and provide updates for customers as to allow them to continue running their product on the new Windows Vista.

If you look at the reviews so far, 99.9% of the problems being found are due to backwards compatibility issues, and lazy vendors refusing to release updates for their software as to allow their product to understand the new Limited User Account and other various Vista improvements.

Edited 2006-07-14 02:00

Reply Score: 1

Official ReactOS Website
by frik85 on Thu 13th Jul 2006 18:44 UTC
frik85
Member since:
2006-01-26

Official ReactOS Website:
http://www.reactos.org/

Screenshots:
http://www.reactos.org/?page=screenshots
http://www.reactos.org/?page=tour

About ReactOS:
http://www.reactos.org/?page=about
http://www.reactos.org/?page=about_whatisreactos

Downloads (LiveCD, InstallCD, VM images):
http://www.reactos.org/?page=download

Compatibility Database:
http://www.reactos.org/support/

Please bear in mind that ReactOS 0.3.0 RC1 is still in alpha stage and is not recommended for everyday use.

Edited 2006-07-13 18:44

Reply Score: 5

Damn...
by suryad on Thu 13th Jul 2006 19:36 UTC
suryad
Member since:
2005-07-09

Everytime i look at the website for this project I cant wait for the final release of their project! If I get a job soon enough, I will donate monthly a few hundred dollars to these guys! They deserve it!

Reply Score: 2

i think...
by Zedicus on Thu 13th Jul 2006 19:48 UTC
Zedicus
Member since:
2005-12-05

wouldnt it be nice to b able to build your grandma a 200$ bargain pc so she can check her email and stuff and 1. not have to pay for windows. 2. have something that resembles win95 that she is use too. linux sort of works here except everytime they want to download randomfile.exe it never works for them and theres no explaining how to install linux binarys.... the only down side i see in having 100% compatibility with windows is 100% compatibility with viri/spyware.

Reply Score: 1

v Mirror of article.
by Eric Martin on Thu 13th Jul 2006 20:10 UTC
Suspended
by ghostdawg on Thu 13th Jul 2006 20:15 UTC
ghostdawg
Member since:
2005-12-31

This is what i'm getting when I click the review link.

This Account Has Been Suspended
Please contact the billing/support department as soon as possible.

Reply Score: 1

hardware compability
by Valhalla on Thu 13th Jul 2006 23:27 UTC
Valhalla
Member since:
2006-01-24

eric martin wrote:
"Your hardware wont be recognized which is a weakness of most new operating systems. Linux struggles with hardware compatibility too.
Should have used X windows in some way. No hardware/drivers = no usage.
We need a directfb or scitech alternative."

you do realize that the goal of reactos is to be fully compatible with windows software? that includes drivers.

Reply Score: 2

mike_m
Member since:
2005-08-30

Initially I was encouraged by the ReactOS project, but their methods of development are somewhat dubious to say the least.

Two of their core developers are working on TinyKrnl, which is a blant dirty reverse engineering attempt of the Windows 2000 kernel. It is hard to believe that ReactOS remains clean because of this.

Their 'audit' was a sham that led to most of the reliable developers quitting. The current ReactOS leaders believe that it's OK to reverse engineer Windows by disassembly, and have admitted to possessing leaked Windows source code.

Wine no longer accepts patches on Windows DLLs that were written by ReactOS developers due to these problems.

Reply Score: 1

stormloss Member since:
2005-08-03

mike_m is that pure speculation on your part.
Or do you have any facts or links of proof to back up that statement.

Reply Score: 1

mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

I refer you to the deleted message, which I have the contents of:

http://www.reactos.org/pipermail/ros-dev/2006-January/007472.html

"I post here a mail which Alex has sent to the 'inner circle' of ReactOS."

...

"Likewise, I joked with XXXXX about funny comments in some win32 DLL source code which I knew I would never implement. XXXXX then told me he was interested about looking at the DCOM source code, document it, and then help WINE out with it, all while taking a 6 month leave to do so. In the end, he realized that doing this was wrong, and he deleted his copy. I did the same. I do not think that nor XXXXX nor I did anything wrong: he only gleaned through some files and quite probably did not learn anything useful, and the only code I looked at were some libraries which I do not touch:
setupapi, ole32, and ntdetect.com. As for XXXXX, last I know he attempted to get the NT4 source compiling, a feat which I had tried as well. So back to our story, I thought, why worry about my reverse engineering? Some of us have done much worse."

Let's wait and see if the following like ever gets updated:

http://www.tinykrnl.org/guidelines.htm

Reply Score: 0

mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

http://www.reactos.org/wiki/index.php/TinyKRNL

"The methods used for development of TinyKRNL’s modules source code involve all possible methods of achieving the end result of having a 100% compatible (or even identical) result. Reverse engineering is one of them (mainly so-called ‘dirty’ way, for further reference see Wikipedia’s article about clean room reverse engineering vs. dirty room reversing)."

Reply Score: 1

suryad Member since:
2005-07-09

I second storm's post. Any facts to back up your statements or is that baloney?

Reply Score: 1

Lorinel Member since:
2006-01-04

http://www.reactos.org/xhtml/en/news_page_19.html

Basically this is an example of proper commercial reverse engineering.

Team A creates a dirty implementation of a system. They use this implementation to create a reliable set of requirements, API's, and documentation.

Team B then creates a clean implementation using only the information provided by Team A.

The end result? A totally legal clone of the original system.

This is the way it has been done for years.

The only real problem with this situation is when you get lazy and use Team A's product instead of Team B's... But according to the above mentioned link, this is not currently the case with ReactOS.

Reply Score: 2

mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

In ReactOS and TinyKrnl, Team A and Team B are the same people.

Reply Score: 0

Dr Fred Member since:
2005-08-22

"Two of their core developers are working on TinyKrnl, which is a blant dirty reverse engineering attempt of the Windows 2000 kernel."
Windows 2003

"Their 'audit' was a sham that led to most of the reliable developers quitting."
That is a lie.

"The current ReactOS leaders believe that it's OK to reverse engineer Windows by disassembly."
If it is clean room.

"... and have admitted to possessing leaked Windows source code."
None of the reactos developer may have access to leaked windows source code. And if one had in the past he may not work on the parts he saw.

Reply Score: 1

fireball Member since:
2006-07-15

Hello Mike,
I'm really sorry I was pointed out to your post by our developers. Not because it's greatly confusing, but because you dare to provide links and quotes from that provocation we had in January.

As a project leader, I officialy state, and will state again and again when it's needed and in question: ReactOS NEVER UTILISED ILLEGALY OBTAINED source code (like Windows NT 4 or 2000 "leaked" source code). And every developer in my team clearly udnerstands, that if he starts using leaked source code even for studying, that will eventually ruin the project. And people who I don't trust will never get commit-access or their patches commited. That's as simple to verify as Julliard told in his interview: ask a few questions, and you see if the guy really developed the code, or he copy-pasted from leaked source code.

As for reverse-engineering: This is a very interesting topic. By the time I came into a project coordinator's position, commiting directly reverse engineering code is forbidden in ReactOS. However, by that time we already have a few millions line of code codebase in the repository, so we decided to perform an auditing process, to see parts of the code which might have unclean origin. We are in the process, but so far everything looks rather good, and if we find any suspicious code, we will ask a 3rd-party developer to rewrite it.
The main strategy is to use regression-tests as
Wine does now, and I'm gathering now various test applications our developers use, reformat them to match the kernel-mode regression framework and commit to the repository. Not only it provides us a legal-ground, but it sets development to a new position, when no regress happens. Also, we work a lot with Wine's regression tests to fix modules of the system we naturally can't share with Wine and have to implement in Windows-specific way.

As for TinyKRNL: I don't understand the concern about it, because it doesn't contain ANY reverse-engineering of a kernel (which is the only part Alex Ionescu develops now in ReactOs), and secondly, if I do my personal education project on creating a fully compatible with Windows2003 HAL implementation, I certainly understand that I will never have the right to develop ReactOS's HAL. It's quite clear.
So I don't understand how reversed e.g. kdcom.sys by Alex from Windows 2003SP1 can make it's use in ReactOS, and make it tainted. It is obvious that I won't allow dirty reverse-engineered code enter in ReactOS repository, it's as clear as a pure water.

Finally, about reverse engineering and mailing list posts, let us look into Wine's mailing list archive:

http://www.winehq.org/pipermail/wine-devel/2004-May/027232.html
"And without reverse engineering, you wouldn't have the beautiful thing known as WINE here before you"

http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/05/0495.html
This one really shows how Steven Edwards (our project coordinator) cared about legality of source code. And it shows a clear proof that dirty reverse engineered code made it into Wine without any problems.

http://www.winehq.com/hypermail/wine-devel/2004/05/0498.html
Here Schachar Shemesh makes statement that it is impossible to develop Wine withour reverse engineering, and if Wine's code is cleaned from reverse engineered code, then no code will left at all.
And this person's patches are in official Wine repository! (It's no doubt he is a reverser).

The last for now topic stating Wine is a reverse-engineering effort:
http://www.ch-open.ch/html/events/LinuxConference/index.html
"The talk presents the goals of the project, the current status and the challenges related to reverse-engineering the badly documented Windows API."

And all the above posts talk about dirty reverse engineering of the actual windows files, not about reverse engineering 3rd party applications and drivers, as ReactOS development team does to ensure compatibility!
Or about cleanrooming practice we would like to utilise for some really important APIs, if there would be such a need.

So, I have to conclude this with the saying, that your arguments make absolutely no sense, to say the least.


Thanks,
With the best regards,
Aleksey Bragin,
ReactOS Project Coordinator

Reply Score: 4

hmm
by Mellin on Fri 14th Jul 2006 04:57 UTC
Mellin
Member since:
2005-07-06

windows malware will work in ReactOS ?

Reply Score: 1

Valhalla
Member since:
2006-01-24

'Their 'audit' was a sham that led to most of the reliable developers quitting.'

please explain what you mean by 'sham'. also, who were these 'reliable' developers? hartmut birr? I though reliable would imply active...

wine not accepting patches by reactos developers? is this so? during the audit process naturally make sense, but infinetly?

oh, and you seem to have than a passing interesting in reactos, since you even keep mailing list posts... I smell a troll...

Reply Score: 2

Dr Fred Member since:
2005-08-22

"oh, and you seem to have than a passing interesting in reactos, since you even keep mailing list posts... I smell a troll..."
This 'troll' is a wine developer.

Reply Score: 3

mike_m
Member since:
2005-08-30

"None of the reactos developer may have access to leaked windows source code. And if one had in the past he may not work on the parts he saw."

This is really below the standard that is acceptable to Wine, and IMO, what is legally acceptable.

Here is one example of copying:

http://www.reactos.org/pipermail/ros-dev/2006-January/007385.html

And this is what Alex said about it in the mailing list email that was censored above:

"1) Kick Alex out and rewrite the accused 100 byte code.
2) Keep everything else silent.

But this is wrong, and you know it. It is a cheap way to do "public punishemnt" to look good on PR, but also not pay the price of -truly- prosecuting me, which would remove most of ReactOS's recent kernel code in the last 2 years. And, it protects the other developers and lets them continue working in the same "illegal" manner as I have."

Now this guy is the leader of the ReactOS project, and TinyKrnl, which again is a self admitted "dirty" reverse engineering project. And that's clean room reverse engineering?

These guys have the potential to give SCO-like problems (both FUD and real legal issues) not just to Wine, but the whole GPL pool of software.

Reply Score: 1

GvG_ Member since:
2005-07-07

Not sure what the ML post you're linking to (which I wrote) has to do with "one example of copying"...

Other than that, I'm afraid I have to agree with you. When I started working on ReactOS I had great hopes for it. Now there's two future scenarios left: either it won't attain "critical mass" and will remain a promise forever, or it will take off and be killed by MS for copyright infringement. Neither outcome seems worthy of my time.

Reply Score: 1

JernejL Member since:
2006-03-15

honestly you should come around reactos irc channel or forums, you obviously have no clue how programming and reverse engineering works. the example of copying you gave is absolutely null and void because it is not proven, and til this day no windows code was found in reactos. I suggest you form a special group devoted into finding windows code in reactos, for which i am sure you wont find any, but still - good luck.

Reply Score: 1

Corporate Interests at hand
by ionescu007 on Sat 15th Jul 2006 15:28 UTC
ionescu007
Member since:
2006-01-27

You should all know that mike_m is a paid developer by the company CodeWeavers, which works on a product that competes against ReactOS. Trusting anything he says is like trusting Steve Ballmer arguing against Google. Sure, he might even tell you that he's at home, sipping his cofee, and Microsoft never put him up to it, but it's still Steve Ballmer. Perhaps at a CodeWeavers meeting, mike_m also got up, threw a chair across the room and yelled "F*cking ReactOS pus*ies! I'm going to bury them! I've done it before and I'll do it again!"

When you're done looking at corporate PR and employee propaganda, feel free to look at the facts:

1) ReactOS has a public audit going on. Wine has an internal audit which isn't even publically adverised (ReactOS has a live progress bar on the front page), and the developers refuse to talk about its status. This audit has not yet found any dirty code.
2) TinyKRNL currently does not have a single line of kernel code. Not only is it impossible for its code to be in ReactOS because ReactOS doesn't allow it, but it's also impossible simply because Tiny has 0 lines to actually be able to copy.
3) Alex Ionescu is not the leader of ReactOS, and TinyKRNL is not even based on Windows 2000. The lack of knowledge of even these basic facts is proves how much mike_m actually knows about what is going on (nothing).
4) I find it funny that mike_m talks about "the most reliable developers quitting" due to the audit, because some of those developers suggested an audit in the first place. I also disagree with the notion that they were "the most reliable". They turned out to be "The most friendly to Wine" and one of them is another Codeweavers employee, while the other was a long-time Wine developer. Again, twisting of facts for a corporate agenda.

But hey, don't take my word for it, I am no better then Sergey Brin defending against Steve Ballmer's anti-google comments. Make your own research. Join our auding team, view the audit process, come to our IRC channel and talk to users and developers. View our source code and audit it yourself. Get all the facts on your own. I believe in full disclosure, not posting on public forums against a corporate competitor and having an internal audit that nobody wants to talk about.

Best regards,
Alex Ionescu

Reply Score: 4

Corporate Interests at hand
by Valhalla on Sat 15th Jul 2006 16:18 UTC
Valhalla
Member since:
2006-01-24

thank you guys for all the valuable insights.

I must applaud all you developers who can muster the energy to work all this time for free while not only wrestling with code-oriented problems, but also that of all the backstabbing and hidden agendas that goes on behind the scene.

learning that mike_m is part of codeweavers, which manages a commercial version of wine, sort of puts his arguments into perspective.

though my heart lies with Haiku, I believe that Reactos is the most likely of the upcoming 'alternate' operating systems to gain a really broad user base. and to me it seems that Alex Ionescu is more or less Reactos's equivalent of Haiku's Axel Dörfler, so here's hoping he will have the strenght to continue developing on Reactos despite all the flak coming his way.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Corporate Interests at hand
by GvG_ on Sat 15th Jul 2006 17:46 UTC in reply to "Corporate Interests at hand"
GvG_ Member since:
2005-07-07

to me it seems that Alex Ionescu is more or less Reactos's equivalent of Haiku's Axel Dörfler

It all depends on your point of view I guess. From my pov (a somewhat bitter ex-developer) Alex is the guy who knowingly

http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ros-dev/2005-December/006578...

("I don't do that, that is against the ReactOS IP Policy.") poisoned the ReactOS kernel code base

http://www.reactos.org/archives/public/ros-dev/2006-February/007879...

("All my kernel code is reversed") with dirty-reverse-engineered code. He's also the guy who was breaking audit locks left and right around the time I left.

Reply Score: 1

Corporate Interests at hand
by Valhalla on Sat 15th Jul 2006 18:11 UTC
Valhalla
Member since:
2006-01-24

indeed, it does depend on your point of view. I have no great insight into the development of Reactos, so I based my opinion on Alex Ionescu's importance on the work he has done, and also on the areas which his work covers.

there are lots of code areas that can be handled by pretty much any experienced programmer. there are other parts, often crucial, of which there are an extreme few who can actually program. that makes these few extremely important.

in Alex case, as with Axel Dörfler, he also seems to be very productive, and thus 'in my point of view' these two factors make him the equivalent of Haiku's Axel Dörfler.

I hope you get over your bitterness, life is too short!

Reply Score: 2

Something from IRC
by mike_m on Sun 16th Jul 2006 02:18 UTC
mike_m
Member since:
2005-08-30

<mike_m> is tinykrnl a copy of ntoskrnl?
<Alex_Ionescu> yes
<Alex_Ionescu> will be
<Alex_Ionescu> currently there are 0 LOC of ntoskrnl in tinykrnl
<mike_m> it is a full, and complete copy?
<Alex_Ionescu> so in 3 years, it will be, yes
<Alex_Ionescu> this makes tiny ©microsoft
<mike_m> is there any functional difference between tinykrnl and reactos?
<Alex_Ionescu> yes
<mike_m> is there any functional difference between tinykrnl and ntoskrnl?
<Alex_Ionescu> no
<mike_m> so, why is tinykrnl not a copyright violation?
<Alex_Ionescu> it is
<mike_m> ok. good
<mike_m> so it's as good as using Microsoft's code?
<Alex_Ionescu> yup

...

<mike_m> "And XXXXX just told me that he doesn't care about reverse engineering, and that he doesn't even care about "seeing the Windows code". So this meant the only person that still actively actually cared was XXXXX. 1 developer is not enough to change my development methods. I continued writing and developing code the same way as before, with or XXXXX blessing. And why should I fear my practice? Almost everyone else was doing it too."
<mike_m> did you write that too?
<Alex_Ionescu> As far as I'm concerned, Hartmut's email was a constructed lie and I refuse to comment on it.
<mike_m> oh, a lie...
<mike_m> but you said you wrote the bit before, about the "2 years"
<mike_m> was that a lie too?
<Alex_Ionescu> No, I wrote that.I'm only saying that his email was modified and re-constructuted.
<mike_m> or did he intermingle truth with your lie?
<Alex_Ionescu> Kind of like a tape evidence
<Alex_Ionescu> with some audio editing
<Alex_Ionescu> sound effects
<Alex_Ionescu> and cut and paste parts
<mike_m> bells and whistles
<mike_m> so Harmut is a lier
<Alex_Ionescu> Yes, but I am not allowed to comment on that, IIRC.
<Alex_Ionescu> There are some internal emails he sent to use which were never made public, and I don't think fireball/steven want them to be.

Edited 2006-07-16 02:19

Reply Score: 1

RE: Something from IRC
by Coviti on Sun 16th Jul 2006 03:01 UTC in reply to "Something from IRC"
Coviti Member since:
2006-07-15

And your point is what exactly? TinyKRNL is a Windows Kernel documentation project. TinyKRNL shares no, and I repeat -NO- code with ReactOS.

And, btw, mike_m in his attempts to shine a bad light on ReactOS, has quoted Alex_Ionescu out of context. Here is a link to the full conversation (In case anybody is interested in the truth, rather than propaganda).

http://pastecode.com/1515

One only needs to search the Wine Mailing list archives or join their IRC channel to see that they are clearly lying about their own use of Reverse Engineering, and fabricating lies about ReactOS.

I will leave that up to the readers.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Something from IRC
by mike_m on Sun 16th Jul 2006 03:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Something from IRC"
mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

TinyKrnl is clearly a copyright violation, by Alex's own admission. Nobody has permission to distribute Microsoft's code in any form except for Microsoft, yet TinyKrnl is doing just that. I'd expect Microsoft's legal department to be interested.

Secondly, Alex, a self admitted "good reverser", has been working on ReactOS for two years prior to turning to TinyKrnl, what do you think he's been doing? Shouldn't you be auditing Alex's ReactOS patches first in your code audit?

Rather than censoring emails, pointing the finger back here and putting your head in the sand about Alex's dubious code, why not fix the problem? Is it because you're not willing to take propper action that would "which would remove most of ReactOS's recent kernel code in the last 2 years"?

Perhaps there's more than just Alex's 2 years worth of "work" in there that is problematic?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Something from IRC
by fireball on Sun 16th Jul 2006 08:06 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Something from IRC"
fireball Member since:
2006-07-15

We are auditing everyone's code (except shared with Wine, responsibility on which is on Wine and not ReactOS) - this is the only fair solution. How would you feel if Wine/CW send an auditing questionnaire only to you and another dev? Wouldn't it be a little suspicious?

Wine is really putting the head in the sand, because it doesn't let ANY information about audit out. ReactOS instead has a full transparency (what I am proud about). You could read up each file's history: why, who, and when considered it as a legally-clean code. We have even per-function documentation of some kernel files too, in SVN repository.

Also, if you care that much about our legal ground (which I greatly appreciate), then you would just come to us and speak with us, I would be your best friend in this work. We could review Alex's code together, and see what's good, what is not.
It's a lot more pleasant and useful thing to do than writing lying posts to the forum.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Something from IRC
by mike_m on Sun 16th Jul 2006 09:20 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Something from IRC"
mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

Alex was caught red handed copying assembly code from ntoskrnl. Seems like a good reason to inspect the rest of his patches to me.

When he was caught, he also accused other ReactOS developers of using similar dirty reverse engineer methods to himself. If he's right, then you have little incentive to uncover wrong-doing in your self-audit.

If TinyKrnl is "Copyright Microsoft" as Alex said on IRC, why does it's about page http://www.tinykrnl.org/about_faq.htm claim that it's BSD? Is that not deception?

Is TinyKrnl not just a way to try legitimize the dirty reverse engineering that Alex and others have done for the ReactOS kernel for 2 years?

Furthermore, can you remove the "we work closely with Wine" from the ReactOS FAQ? This is no longer true, if it ever was. I don't want to work with people who are engaged in dirty reverse engineering.

Edited 2006-07-16 09:28

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Something from IRC
by EmuandCo on Sun 16th Jul 2006 09:45 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Something from IRC"
EmuandCo Member since:
2006-07-16

" Furthermore, can you remove the "we work closely with Wine" from the ReactOS FAQ? This is no longer true, if it ever was. I don't want to work with people who are engaged in dirty reverse engineering. "

ReactOS still works with Wine's code, so its still true. And without those idoetic, absolutely unreal shit some Wine Devs and you say, we still would work more close together than it is now. Before you accuse other Projects, which Source you NEVER EVER looked at, using dirty reverse engineering,... would you please respond to the links Fireball posted above. When reading those it almost looks like you cant work for/with Wine, anymore, too, because you don't want to work with people who are engaged in dirty reverse engineering. Man, how I hate this fu**ing gossip!

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: Something from IRC
by fireball on Sun 16th Jul 2006 10:24 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Something from IRC"
fireball Member since:
2006-07-15

>Furthermore, can you remove the "we work closely
>with Wine" from the ReactOS FAQ? This is no longer
>true, if it ever was.

Who are you to request this kind of action? A new Wine's project leader?
If so, then I'm ready to speak differently with you to find a proper solution to the problem you are explaining. I'm quite a diplomatic one, preferring to solve problems instead of creating them.

ReactOS doesn't *request* anything from Wine, it *provides* a lot of things to Wine (and Wine chooses the things it wants, and the best it wants).
Even more, we advanced to a new level of code sharing with Wine, so this is *at least* a better testing. Resulting in fixing patches. It's automatical code syncing, I doubt any other two projects have a closer relationship, benefitting both of them.

>I don't want to work with people who are engaged in
>dirty reverse engineering.

Then you lead to a thought, that you have to leave your current workplace, and stop submitting patches to Wine too... :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: Something from IRC
by mike_m on Sun 16th Jul 2006 11:32 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Something from IRC"
mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

> Who are you to request this kind of action? A new Wine's project leader?

If you want it directly from the project leader, you can have it.

The point of exposing your dirty reverse engineering is to try to prevent your dubious code from entering the Wine code base and alert potential developers to what kind of projects ReactOS and TinyKrnl are. You are free to use Wine's code, as is everybody; we can't stop that.

The flow of patches from ReactOS to Wine (not that it was ever significant) is nothing but a trickle of work that is not in danger of being corrupted by your sloppy attitudes and reckless developers.

btw. You still didn't answer my question. Is TinyKrnl BSD licensed (as Alex claims) or Copyright Microsoft (as the TinyKrnl website claims)?

Reply Score: 0

RE[7]: Something from IRC
by Dr Fred on Sun 16th Jul 2006 16:42 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Something from IRC"
Dr Fred Member since:
2005-08-22

btw. You still didn't answer my question. Is TinyKrnl BSD licensed (as Alex claims) or Copyright Microsoft (as the TinyKrnl website claims)?
Why don't you ask this kind of questions in the tinykrnl irc channel or at the tinykrnl mailing list and stop flaming osnews.

Reply Score: 1

Request #2
by mike_m on Sun 16th Jul 2006 13:47 UTC
mike_m
Member since:
2005-08-30

>>I don't want to work with people who are engaged in
>>dirty reverse engineering.
>
>Then you lead to a thought, that you have to leave
>your current workplace, and stop submitting patches to
>Wine too... :-)

If you believe Wine is tainted, then why do you use Wine code?

Either:

1) You don't care

or

2) Wine isn't really dirty

So which is it?

And again, which license TinyKrnl is under?

Reply Score: 0

gedmurphy
Member since:
2005-12-23

It's quite sad that Mike McCormack spends some his time commenting on a project he has no affiliation with.

Why someone take such an interest in a project they don't like is beyond me.

There are many projects out there that I don't like, or agree with, but I would be quite embarased to chase them around the internet publically bad mouthing them. I have much better things to do with my time.

Reply Score: 1

mike_m Member since:
2005-08-30

> Why someone take such an interest in a project they don't like is beyond me.

The fact is, as TinyKrnl is calling Microsoft code BSD licensed, they're a danger to all open source projects.

It's illegal and unethical, and people deserve to know.

It should be of concern to anybody with an interested in open source, as it has potential far reaching legal effects. (Think SCO).

Reply Score: 1

Conclusion
by fireball on Mon 17th Jul 2006 15:34 UTC
fireball
Member since:
2006-07-15

I will not reply to any mike_m posts in this thread anymore, because:
1. It doesn't suit osnews.com discussion style.
2. Personal, biased, and no-proofs Mike's attacks hardly interest anyone (they are becoming similar to spam), and "feed the troll" phrase fits perfectly here.
3. I can't understand which force drives Mike. He denied to reply why he keeps attacking ReactOS. So we can only guess...

Reply Score: 1