Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:05 UTC
Apple Not too long ago, I sold my iBook, right after the new MacBook was announced. I planned to buy that same MacBook somewhere this summer; however, I started to doubt. I had second thoughts. Let me explain why I decided to not buy a new Mac, but instead opt for a used G4 PowerMac. Note: After being absent for a week, here is another Sunday Eve Column.
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One thing
by zizban on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:22 UTC
zizban
Member since:
2005-07-06

One thing that gives me pause before buying my next Mac is the switch to Intel. I hear some of my fellow mac heads say "the processor doesn't matter". But it does matter a whole lot.

What will be in the incentive for software companies to release mac versions of their software now that you can run Windows in emulation at near native speeds or dual boot? This is one thing Linux users know all too well.

I'll use my dual G4 until it dies but after that, I dunno.

Reply Score: 3

RE: One thing
by falemagn on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:40 UTC in reply to "One thing"
falemagn Member since:
2005-07-06

What will be in the incentive for software companies to release mac versions of their software now that you can run Windows in emulation at near native speeds or dual boot?


The incentive would be, as always, money. A MacOS user is likely to want to run his SW under MacOS - no point in running MacOS at all, otherwise - hence there's a market for MacOS-specific SW, just like there's always been.

Reply Score: 5

RE: One thing
by DevL on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:37 UTC in reply to "One thing"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

Don't be silly. The Intel switch will only grow the market for Mac-centric developers, not shrink it!

Yes, I use Parallels to run Windows (sadly needed to cater for some of my clients) and Ubuntu Linux, but I still very much prefer to use native OS X applications. I wouldn't dream of using e.g. a word processor in Windows in a virtual machine.

Do yourself a favor and buy a new Intel Mac when you get tired of your G4 (or when it gets tired of you).

Reply Score: 0

Point?
by eMagius on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:25 UTC
eMagius
Member since:
2005-07-06

I, for one, don't follow the author's reasoning. If the author is interested in neither Apple software nor Apple hardware and is short on cash, why does he want to buy a G4 PowerMac instead of, say, a PC from Dell?

Reply Score: 5

RE: Point?
by thebluesgnr on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:36 UTC in reply to "Point?"
thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

I'm guessing he wants to run OS X occasionally, and he doesn't want to do that on the Dell.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Point?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:40 UTC in reply to "Point?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

What I meant to say: OSX is not unique anymore in the experience it offers; neither is iLife.

That does not mean I do not want access to it anymore, of course.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Point?
by eMagius on Sun 16th Jul 2006 00:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Point?"
eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

What I meant to say: OSX is not unique anymore in the experience it offers; neither is iLife.

That does not mean I do not want access to it anymore, of course.


I don't mean to be contrary, Thom, but the column really meanders about.

You posit the following points, which I do not wish to argue (though I disagree with some):
1. Apple's software is not appealing.
1a. SUSE Linux "has left ... little or nothing to wish for" compared to OS X. In fact, SUSE has the added benefit of being OSS.
1b. The competition has caught up to/surpassed iLife.
2. Apple's current hardware and support is shoddy
2a. The MacBook Pro and PowerMac G5 suffer from a host of issues.
2b. Apple's customer service is poor.
3. The author (Thom) is poor.
4. Apple's hardware design is aesthetically superior.

Points 2 (quality) and 3 (price) provide some reasoning as to why any Apple hardware you buy would not be new. Point 4 clarifies why you would want a Mac instead of a PC. As far as I can see, however, point 1 is irrelevant to your argument as even old versions of OS X and iLife "[are] not unique anymore in the experience [they] offer."

Again: how does your dissatisfaction with Apple's software translate into the desire to purchase an older Mac? If there is no link between the two that item does not belong in the column.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Point?
by ma_d on Sun 16th Jul 2006 04:37 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Point?"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

So, I think the answer he needs to hear is:

Because it's Thom, and he's probably got half a dozen computers in his office ;) .

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Point?
by NeoX on Tue 18th Jul 2006 01:32 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Point?"
NeoX Member since:
2006-02-19

Linux is great for the techies or the people that love to be power users or tinkerers. But sorry it is no where near as easy to configure, use and install as OSX. I cannot even imagine putting my Wife's Mac on Linux. Sorry but from the aspect that it all works together with little user tinkering, OSX is still far superior and unique.

As for iLife not being a unique experience over Linux or Windows counterparts. Name one suite on Windows that can come close to the integration, ease of use and the pro quality results you get with iLife. You can't because it does not exist. I have used just about every type of DVD burning, Movie authoring and photo apps out there for PC and they all have major shortcomings or are just plain unintuitive. Sorry again, my wife can manage with iLife but having to teach her another app on the PC that PC users claim to be similar was a disaster...

I just bought a new MacBook, and while I do have a few issues with the emulation speed of PowerPC apps, it's no different then in 94 when they switched from 68k to PowerPC. Those days passed fairly quickly and so will the intel transition.

What other computer brand can you sell a 3 year old computer for $1500 like I just did with my PowerMac G5 Dual 1.8. I was able to buy this MacBook and still pocket a couple hundred bucks. Try doing that with a 3 year old Dell. And that was for the Mac, and a CRT display.

NeoX

Reply Score: 1

RE: Point?
by Dark_Knight on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:51 UTC in reply to "Point?"
Dark_Knight Member since:
2005-07-10

While I believe the article was poorly written I did understand Thom's point. That point was no matter what system you choose don't make aesthetics the most important factor in your purchase decision. Both software and hardware are more important than a systems outer appearance. Though when it comes to hardware there really isn't that much difference than systems sold by competitors such as Dell and HP. At least in regards to laptops since Apple has yet to release anything new for their desktop systems. After all all three companies sell systems that offer Intel Core Duo processors and the choice of hignend graphics even for a mobile GPU.

Reply Score: 1

Enjoy my MBP
by karudzo on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:42 UTC
karudzo
Member since:
2006-07-15

I can see why he feels this way after his experience with the MBP. I bought my Macbook Pro about 6 weeks ago and have had no problems at all. It's by far the best computer I've ever had; what makes it really rock is its BSD core since I'm into FreeBSD, Linux, Unix, etc...

It is disappointing that the quality has seemed to go downhill lately- I'm grateful that I got a decent MBP.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Enjoy my MBP
by kaiwai on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:27 UTC in reply to "Enjoy my MBP"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

It is disappointing that the quality has seemed to go downhill lately- I'm grateful that I got a decent MBP.

The quesiton that should be asked, has the quality actually gone down hill, or have the number of outlets for people to voice their anger, increased.

We now have more blogs, technology sites for people to complain on, we have more end users who are now using Mac's more than ever before (numbers wise).

People claim, for example, that Microsofts products have 'gone down hill in quality' but the simple fact is, they've always been crap quality; the only difference now, rather than having one or two journalists being cast off as whiners, we have thousands up thousdands of bloggers who can air their digust or pleasure regarding a particular product.

Same siuation is happening with Mac; the product quality has stayed the same, its just when something goes wrong, it can easily be blown out of all proportions by the number of bloggers and reviewing sites that now inhabit the internet compared to, for example, when the first iMac was released around 10 years ago.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Enjoy my MBP
by karudzo on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Enjoy my MBP"
karudzo Member since:
2006-07-15

I never thought about that- that's a very good point. I know quite a few Mac users and have never heard any complaints out of them. Also, the expectations seem to be much higher for Apple systems. After all, is anyone ever surprised when their Dell system starts crashing and having all sorts of issues within a few months? My point is that the high expectations and the anti-mac fervor of a few bored people very well could cause some to jump on the bandwagon of "Apple sucks".

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Enjoy my MBP
by kaiwai on Sun 16th Jul 2006 02:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Enjoy my MBP"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

There are also these points as well:

1) The PC industry is split between the hardware vendor and the operating system vendor; when things go wrong, both parties blame each other.

When you have a problem with your Windows machine, who do you think Microsoft is going to blame for instability and crashes? of course, Dell! and when you talk to Dell about the said issues, they'll blame Microsoft or a third party hardware vendor for those problems.

In the case of Apple, they don't have the luxary of doing that, they control the hardware, they control the software, and as such, people expect, sorry demand that Apple takes account of any problems that occur.

If your computer is unstable in the 'world of Mac', it tends to be a hardware related issue rather than an operating system one, hence the reason why people say, "check your memory"; thats the first cause.

2) There are alot of hypochondriacs out there who hear of a rumour that there are problems with a certain Apple product - never mind the fact that they've owned the said product for 6 months without any problems.

Within a few days, the product 'suddenly' has 'computer problems' - does it have a computer problem? of course not, its just that we have one sole idiot who suddenly thinks because everyone else is having problems, he too should start to experience problems.

So he starts believing the crap, and claims to be hearing 'squealing' and 'noise' from their computer which never existed in the first place, and voila, you end up with a whole bunch of idiots claiming to be having 'major problem' with their hardware, when its nothing more than something in their mind.

3) Its amazing how many people who have problems with their computers are because they chocked up their machine with, well, shit - tweakers, hackers, work arounds, speed boosters and other pointless crap that do nothing put consume memory, cause instability and break stability of the applications running on top of the machine.

I worked at an ISP; its amazing, I tell the customer to bring in their computer; I strip off all the shit, do a clean install of Windows or MacOS X, and everything is back to stability and reliability - gone is their 80mb picture of their pig ugly kid, gone are the tweakers and speed boosters like 'Nortons Utilities', and everything is nice and stable, and you know, after the follow my advice to keep your machine vanilla, don't tweak and cock around with it, they don't have a single instability from there.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Enjoy my MBP
by SterlingNorth on Sun 16th Jul 2006 12:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Enjoy my MBP"
SterlingNorth Member since:
2006-02-21

The quesiton that should be asked, has the quality actually gone down hill, or have the number of outlets for people to voice their anger, increased.

People claim, for example, that Microsofts products have 'gone down hill in quality' but the simple fact is, they've always been crap quality. . .

Same siuation is happening with Mac; the product quality has stayed the same, its just when something goes wrong, it can easily be blown out of all proportions by the number of bloggers and reviewing sites that now inhabit the internet.


Aren't these two statements inconsistant? You can't say that in one breath that Microsoft always sucked but only now more people know about it because of all of the people complaining about them, whereas Apple doesn't suck, but people think otherwise now only because all of the people complaining about them are distorting it.

Either all of the people are distorting the case for both, or they are not.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Enjoy my MBP
by DevL on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:33 UTC in reply to "Enjoy my MBP"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

I nust admit that I was intimidated of buying a new Mac due to the widespread reports of boiling laps, mind-torturing whining noises and so on.

I'm glad that I eventually did the only sane thing and overcame my "fears" and bought a MacBook.

Best. Laptop. Ever.

BTW, my G5 PowerMac is doing very well and my G4 Mac Mini is a real workhorse.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Enjoy my MBP
by MordEth on Sun 16th Jul 2006 15:13 UTC in reply to "Enjoy my MBP"
MordEth Member since:
2006-07-16

I too have a MacBook Pro, purchased when I finally decided that I really should have a laptop. (Read as: I was going to be away from my apartment for a week, and figured that I'd go into withdrawal without a Mac.)

So far I've been very happy with it. It's silent, it doesn't get as hot as everything you hear would lead you to believe, and everything on it works as it should. There are still a few things that I wish were universal binaries (mostly PrefPanes), but the developers are hard at work rewriting/recompiling, and I was able to recompile the single seldom-used screensaver that I use (RedPill). I've yet to figure out why it produces a warning when compiled, but it works perfectly.

It's nice to be able to dual boot, should I wish to play a game that hasn't been ported to Mac OS X (which has only been Knights of the Old Republic 2, so far). Boot Camp works well, and Parallels is a huge step up from Virtual PC, although I still only emulate when I'm trying to help someone with Windows.

The MacBook is the third Macintosh that I've owned (previously, a 800MHz G4 and my current desktop, a dual-2.5GHz G5). I have been very happy with both of those computers, and get an extraordinary amount of use out of both. I host mail and web on the G5, and it works perfectly. The fact that Mac OS X is based on BSD is what got me to switch...I'd used various Linux servers (mostly Red Hat), and knowing that anything I can do on the command line on Linux (and then some) can be done on the Mac was enough to sell me. I still need to learn more Applescript (which can be called from shell scripts; a very cool feature), but I would not go back, although I would consider Linux for additional servers.

Back to the hardware, though, I'd have to agree with kaiwai. I think that the internet gives more people a forum to complain, and that the problems have been blown out of proportion by all of the complaints. I'm not saying that Apple hasn't had some problems with their hardware recently, but that I think the complaints may be disproportionate to the actual problems. I've yet to have hardware problems with my Macs, whereas I've been called to fix numerous hardware problems with computers running Windows. I have a friend whose Dell notebook shuts down unless she puts it on a cooling pad (overheating), and I've had more than one friend have Windows screw up their drives to the point that Windows will not boot from them. I've also seen Windows machines become so filled with spyware and virii that they become unusably slow, despite the speed of the hardware. I encourage people to try either Ubuntu or Kubuntu, and have given out a number of CDs of both, but for anyone looking at buying a new computer, I'll continue to recommend Macs.

So far, one of my friends just bought a Mac mini when his HP desktop died beyond any chance of repairing it (HD is toast, HD controller seems to be gone, also). He's still getting used to the differences between OS X and Windows, but is greatly impressed how much usable it is, and how much more he can do with the software that comes with it. I have several more friends who have stated that their next computer will be an Apple.

If you still want to complain about quality, though, look at Dell. See the news story about Dell's spontaneously combusting laptop? Or earlier stories about their horrible support and closing support forums because of all of the negative comments about Dell? [ http://forms.theregister.co.uk/search/?q=Dell ] Say what you like about Apple...I still think they're the best choice for computer hardware.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Enjoy my MBP
by netpython on Sun 16th Jul 2006 15:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Enjoy my MBP"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

I've yet to have hardware problems with my Macs, whereas I've been called to fix numerous hardware problems with computers running Windows.

I build my own PC's from quality components.My AMD64 based desktop now runs more than 3 years without *any* problem.

but for anyone looking at buying a new computer, I'll continue to recommend Macs.

Depends on how much money they are prepared to spend.
Apple hardware isn't the best you can get.Everybody with some screwdrivers and pliers and the right mind-set can make a PC,from student-PC to a high-end system.The sky is the limit.

Reply Score: 1

Boring...
by Governa on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:46 UTC
Governa
Member since:
2006-04-09

I always hear that Mac users total less than 5% of world computer users. I'm a Mac user myself.

But on OS News the Mac articles are way above the 5% margin. I find it disturbing that this thom holwerda guy posts dozens of mac related articles on a daily basis, being most of them really poor Apple bashing stuff. What is his obsession with Macs ?

I can only guess he is using John Dvorak's tactics, like John admited, deliberately pissing Mac users off to get clicks and flow for his stories...

EDIT: No, I'm not reading your replies. These articles are so poor they don't deserve my attention. So hit me all you want, I don't care. Just returned here to post this link to a video demonstrating thom holwerda's and john dvorak's tactits:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAWDYaWAVQQ

Edited 2006-07-15 22:06

Reply Score: 5

RE: Boring...
by junior on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:58 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
junior Member since:
2005-07-07

Don't like it, don't read it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Boring...
by AdamR01 on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:04 UTC in reply to "RE: Boring..."
AdamR01 Member since:
2005-09-14

How can you know if you like an article without reading it?

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Boring...
by junior on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:23 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
junior Member since:
2005-07-07

You can't. I just get irritated by whiny-ass posts that state the same thing over and over in every Mac article's comment section.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Boring...
by ThawkTH on Sat 15th Jul 2006 23:44 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
ThawkTH Member since:
2005-07-06

Wan't he upset that the articles were mac articles? I don't remember any mention of whether the mac articles were good or not...

Not to mention, this *is* OSNews - and macs are one of the most used non-windows oses out there. For better or worse, they also tend to be buzzworthy lately. Hence all the news articles.

Don't complain about hardware reviews etc etc saying this is osnews either (not saying you are, only that many do...) - read the OSN FAQ if.

Why some people are so self righteous and believe they have a right to complain about a FREE site. Nobody makes you read it...Don't like it, don't read it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Boring...
by somebody on Sun 16th Jul 2006 18:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

How can you know if you like an article without reading it?

Well, thats simple:) Just as you know you don't want to see the new film made by Hans Uwe Boll

p.s. I on the other hand like thoms writings.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Boring...
by thebluesgnr on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:12 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
thebluesgnr Member since:
2005-11-14

Are you saying 95% of the articles should be about Windows?

Reply Score: 5

RE: Boring...
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:16 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

can only guess he is using John Dvorak's tactics, like John admited, deliberately pissing Mac users off to get clicks and flow for his stories...

Sigh. We do not get paid. There is no ad revenue to generate and live from, as with Dvorak. In fact, I even do not really like Dvorak:

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=14479

I do not make wilde claims like Dvorak. I do not get paid like Dvorak. And most importantly, I'm not even close to being even 1% as known as Dvorak. Oh, and I do not share the name with a guy who made a keymap.

Edited 2006-07-15 22:20

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Boring...
by Duffman on Sun 16th Jul 2006 08:56 UTC in reply to "RE: Boring..."
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

Sigh. We do not get paid. There is no ad revenue to generate and live from, as with Dvorak.

Yes, and how can we verify this ?
Perhaps not to live from, but to get more money each month, possibly.

I do not make wilde claims like Dvorak
No, the only difference between Dvorak and you is that Dvorak assumes his words.

Strangely, YOU are one of the only ones that are always saying that Mac suxes. Since Apple switch to Intel a lot of PC sites have successfully tested the Apple's hardware (using either windows or Mac OS).
Anandtech, Ars technica, pc world they *all* liked it.

The fact is you are making worse little problems and things you don't like on Apple's technologies, hidding all the good things.

The heat has always been a problem on Apple's laptop. It is not new to MacBook, so if it wasn't a problem for you before, I don't understand why it is a problem for you now.

From the powerbook 15" test on Arstechnica:
That's not to say that there is no heat anywhere. The AlBook seems to funnel all its heat out the bottom. The underside of a hard-working 15" AlBook will get downright hot. Using it on your lap while wearing shorts would get uncomfortable pretty quickly.

You can say that Apple's zealot are ridiculous, but I don't think that Apple-haters are better ...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Boring...
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 16th Jul 2006 11:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

No, the only difference between Dvorak and you is that Dvorak assumes his words.

Dvorak spouts weird nonsense like Apple moving to Windows. I never make that sort of unsubstantiated claims; all I do is list my personal experiences, I do not make predictions. So, how exactly am I like Dvorak?

Strangely, YOU are one of the only ones that are always saying that Mac suxes.

Right. I think Apple and Mac sucks. That is why I just wrote in this article that I will buy another Macintosh computer. Weird logic you Apple zealots have.

Since Apple switch to Intel a lot of PC sites have successfully tested the Apple's hardware (using either windows or Mac OS). Anandtech, Ars technica, pc world they *all* liked it.

Since when am I not allowed to disagree? Ars also put large question marks behind Apple's switch to Intel, critisising Apple for it. I suppose that is The One Truth as well, and you also critique Apple for doing this?

I simply do not give a rat's ass what other reviewers think of a product when reviewing it myself. I'd be a bad reviewer if I did.

Get a grip, Duffman. Different people, different opinions. Oh, and in case you missed it, I praised the MacBook Pro for being a good laptop. Just not good enough for that price.

The heat has always been a problem on Apple's laptop.

My iBook never ran hot. Other than that, because it has always been a problem, it somehow turns into an invalid complaint? Again, weird logic you Apple zealots have.

It is not new to MacBook, so if it wasn't a problem for you before, I don't understand why it is a problem for you now.

Because not just the MacBook Pro gets hot. The MacBook does too.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Boring...
by Duffman on Sun 16th Jul 2006 12:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Boring..."
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

That is why I just wrote in this article that I will buy another Macintosh computer. Weird logic you Apple zealots have.

The typic argument. Since when because you own an Apple avoid you to be an Apple-haters?

The vast majority of Windows-haters are windows users themself. And they are still buying PCs with windows.

Different people, different opinions.

Yes and indeed, you seems to have a problem with this as you are calling everybody that find Macs great "Apple Zealots".
I use other OSes like *BSD and Solaris 10 on non Apple hardware and I am just tired (such as a lot of people here) about your news, always bashing Apple for nothing.

My iBook never ran hot.
iBook never ran hot because Apple has always put under powered processors in the iBook. I remember just a year ago, iBook users complaining because there was no technical reason not to put the same processor the powerbook had.

Now it IS the same processor, but now people are complaining because MacBook are as hot as Powerbook ...

Weird logic you never-happy mens have.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Boring...
by Bill Shooter of Bul on Tue 18th Jul 2006 05:28 UTC in reply to "RE: Boring..."
Bill Shooter of Bul Member since:
2006-07-14

I do not make wilde claims like Dvorak. I do not get paid like Dvorak. And most importantly, I'm not even close to being even 1% as known as Dvorak. Oh, and I do not share the name with a guy who made a keymap.

<Br>
Awesome. Someday, I want to be just like you. I guess the only thing I have to work at is being compared to dvorak. If you ever want another unpaid opinion let me know. I'll be glad to tell you why some thing isn't very good. I actually came to the same conclusion you did, but I'll just by the cheap Lintel Laptop with SLED. And maybe a used G4 at some point.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Boring...
by rayiner on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:22 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

I thought the article was pretty good. His statements echo what I've noticed for awhile now. Linux has gotten quite good. Not just usable, or decent, but good. It's behind OS X in many ways, but ahead in others, but I've been using both for about 9 months now, and I'm quite happy both.

I think he overstates the hardware quality complaint, though. Maybe I've just gotten lucky, but neither my Macbook nor my PowerMac (nor my mother's iMac) have do so much as hiccup.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Boring...
by butters on Sun 16th Jul 2006 02:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Boring..."
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Wow, rayiner, you're really on the ball today, 3 posts in the this thread that I felt the need to mod up. I think that you've come the closest to figuring out what Thom was really trying to say in this piece. He's saying that Macs and OSX are great machines with great software, but the lead is getting smaller and smaller as time goes on.

I feel bad for Apple, in almost the same way that I feel bad for Microsoft. While Microsoft constantly worries about how to steer its giant army of partners and customers, Apple has to worry about keeping its image as a shiny, premium computing experience. And while its current offers are certainly very nice, neither Windows nor Linux is standing still. Windows will someday release Vista, which should bring that platform much, much closer to the kind of experience Mac users enjoy. Linux distributions keep improving at a dizzying rate, and that rate is increasing at an even more impressive clip.

Apple is in a tight PR spot right now, just like Windows, because it's been too long since their last release. People are looking at new Vista and SLED10 betas and comparing them to Tiger. In August, when Apple reveals the first public showing of Leopard, they should quiet some of the opposition.

Expect to see Thom post some very different opinions on Apple in the August/September timeframe.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Boring...
by kaiwai on Sun 16th Jul 2006 03:00 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple is in a tight PR spot right now, just like Windows, because it's been too long since their last release. People are looking at new Vista and SLED10 betas and comparing them to Tiger. In August, when Apple reveals the first public showing of Leopard, they should quiet some of the opposition.

Excuse me, but what planet are you from; 4/5 years ago, we had people whining because Microsoft was releasing operating systems too quickly, and businesses customers were complaining that they were not given enough time to digest the new features and deploy them in their company.

Lets not forget Apple, the bitching and whining from the Linux conga-line that Apple is 'gouging people' with the 'constant stream of upgrades' - you could please Butters, form a committee, with all the other Linux zealots and come up with a united position on this matter, do you want frequent releases or longer release cycles?

Oh, and for the record, it doesn't matter how good SLED10 is, if it doesn't have the Adobe's, Quickens, Peachtree's and MYOB's of the world, providing native software for Linux, its going to fail, simple as that.

Companies buy computers with operating systems to run applications to get their work done; they want the same applications that they've always used, and sorry, the only alternative for them right now is running Vista, and if they're a little experimental in their computer fetish, they might give MacOS X a roll.

Linux isn't up the game yet, there aren't the application vendors, there isn't the hardware support, and most importantly of all, there isn't the same level of ease of use which comes with Windows Vista and MacOS X.

Edited 2006-07-16 03:05

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Boring...
by sterling on Sun 16th Jul 2006 09:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Boring..."
sterling Member since:
2006-07-16

He can always put together his own Cube by stacking a fully loaded Mac Mini on a couple of the matching LaCie half-gig HDDs. It's an imperfect world.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Boring...
by JMcCarthy on Sun 16th Jul 2006 00:39 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
JMcCarthy Member since:
2005-08-12

Apple has had a lot of negative surrounding it lately. Deal with it.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Boring...
by jbalmer on Sun 16th Jul 2006 05:51 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
jbalmer Member since:
2005-12-18

After reading the article, I feel a lot of what Thom says makes perfect sense. Even I have read a lot of complaints about mac laptops heating up - in one instance it caused burns on a lady's lap.

And considering Linux making inroads on the usability front (just wait for KDE 4.0) I think the gap is decreasing very fast and I see a time when Microsoft and Apple will be compelled to stop charging for their OS products.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Boring...
by rm6990 on Sun 16th Jul 2006 09:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Boring..."
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Damn, Linux is just soooo easy, now if only it could actually have some decent applications (what people actually use a computer for) and people might even care ;)

Oh, btw, what's a good and easy tax preparation software package for Canada that allows me to submit my form online instead of mailing it in on Linux?

How about a nice and easy to use, 2 or 3 click DVD backup package?

A nice video and audio editing suite on par with iDVD. iMovie and Garageband?

Quicken, Quickbooks, etc etc etc?

Photoshop? Illustrator? Acrobat?

Dreamweaver? I could go on and on and on....

Get my drift?

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Boring...
by unapersson on Sun 16th Jul 2006 11:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
unapersson Member since:
2005-07-19

Hmm, so you use 100% of the features of all those programs? You must barely have got time to live.

As usual all you've done is put together a list of big ticket programs you've heard other people mention and put those across as a typical use case.

I'll throw in the name of some apps though, several now quickly coming together now gstreamer is close to completion: Diva, Pitivi, Jokosher.

Graphical: The GIMP, Inkscape.

Web: BlueFish. Dreamweaver (and WYSIWYG) is seriously overrated - do you actually use it or have you just heard others mention it? The preview it offers is seriously inaccurate, it's CSS support is piss poor.

Financial ones: HomeBank, MoneyDance.

Scribus is much nicer to use to create PDF than Acrobat, you can even import text from OpenOffice which Acrobat cannot do.

Considering DVDs are so cheap, why on earth would you waste time "backing" them up? It's easier just to rip them to hard drive using something like Thoggen. If you're talking about data DVDs then nautilus can do that quite happily. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an app that can do it, but I can't think why it's worth wasting the media.

How about 1 click music ripping? On Linux I insert the CD then click Extract. I have trouble finding something easier than that. I notice you skipped the more usual activities: ripping music and creating audio CDs. Why was that I wonder?

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Boring...
by somebody on Sun 16th Jul 2006 19:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Boring..."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Damn, Linux is just soooo easy, now if only it could actually have some decent applications (what people actually use a computer for) and people might even care ;)

Oh, btw, what's a good and easy tax preparation software package for Canada that allows me to submit my form online instead of mailing it in on Linux?

How about a nice and easy to use, 2 or 3 click DVD backup package?

A nice video and audio editing suite on par with iDVD. iMovie and Garageband?

Quicken, Quickbooks, etc etc etc?

Photoshop? Illustrator? Acrobat?

Dreamweaver? I could go on and on and on....


??? Same old, same old...:)

Get my drift?

No.

I can tell you one thing, I have twop Macs (Adobe collection and all), I have a Windows machine, but do I find any of those usable? No.

PS? I don't need CMYK, and PS is pisspoor on alpha channels, at least working with them is not really a comfortable ride.

Illustrator? I could never find it really usable. Actualy the closest to my drawing needs is Inkscape (but it will need more miles to get there, in fact they could make clipping paths and masks more friendly to use). But, I can say the one thing, Illustrator was good in 90's, and it hasn't progressed a single bit, all other vector drawing softwares surpassed him long ago (still in 90's).

Acrobat? Clumsiest of all. Hell I can make more professional PDF from OpenOffice in 1/100 of a time.

Forgot to throw in InDesign? And his problems of not opening older versions?

Dreamweaver? Nah, don't need web design. But if I did I would probably chose more hardcore software. Half assed products are not what I do.

iDVD? iMovie? GarageBand? Ok, if grandma decides to make music those will probably be suitable, but for serious work? Don't make me laugh.


p.s. I'm starting to understand why South Park constantly pisses over the Canadians. If they are 10% like you.... no wonder

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Boring...
by trezzer on Sun 16th Jul 2006 21:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Boring..."
trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

"iDVD? iMovie? GarageBand? Ok, if grandma decides to make music those will probably be suitable, but for serious work? Don't make me laugh."

Let me put it like this: If you can't produce high quality output in these applications, the applications aren't the limit.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Boring...
by somebody on Sun 16th Jul 2006 21:46 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Boring..."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Let me put it like this: If you can't produce high quality output in these applications, the applications aren't the limit.

And in the end I would always end up in Ardour (on which ever platform I work on my music, but I preffer my Agnula based computer for that purpose), your point would be?

I don't play with movies, so I can't say where would I end up, but as far as I know my self it wouldn't be one of those or any app that is bounded to any platform (and I preffer to use OSS apps). So, which one do you guess I would pick?

Don't think I didn't understand, you just put it badly.
Every OS has its own apps, problem is wheter user will move or not, searching for exact app (which you used on some other OS) usualy ends up with dissapointment and loss of variety.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Boring...
by StephenBeDoper on Mon 17th Jul 2006 03:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Boring..."
StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

But, I can say the one thing, Illustrator was good in 90's, and it hasn't progressed a single bit,

Eh? I'm still only using Illustrator 10, but I have an old 7200 here with Illustrator 7 on it and there certainly are some noticeable differences.

all other vector drawing softwares surpassed him long ago (still in 90's).

In what ways? That wasn't the case the last time I tried Freehand or CorelDRAW.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Boring...
by somebody on Mon 17th Jul 2006 14:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Boring..."
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Eh? I'm still only using Illustrator 10, but I have an old 7200 here with Illustrator 7 on it and there certainly are some noticeable differences.

Differencies? yes. Benefits? No. All added features are mostly crap.

In what ways? That wasn't the case the last time I tried Freehand or CorelDRAW.

Actualy CorelDraw surpassed Illustrator long ago usability wise. Same job can be accomplished more than 50% faster in CorelDraw. Illustrator still has the clumsiest and most cluttered interface ever. Won't talk about creating PS here, as I don't need it and it would be unfair of me (beside the fact that even CorelDraw is not my choice of vector app).

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Boring...
by Duffman on Sun 16th Jul 2006 08:22 UTC in reply to "Boring..."
Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

"But on OS News the Mac articles are way above the 5% margin. I find it disturbing that this thom holwerda guy posts dozens of mac related articles on a daily basis, being most of them really poor Apple bashing stuff. What is his obsession with Macs ? "

You are very rude. There wasn't any bashing article on OSNews since a week now ... the week where Thom wasn't here.

Reply Score: 3

Music Store
by junior on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:57 UTC
junior
Member since:
2005-07-07

I don't see how it shines through everywhere. There's one link in the side bar and a bunch of arrows which you should disable the first time iTunes is started.

Personally I don't buy compressed audio, but I find the Store link highly convenient for looking stuff up.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Music Store
by MikeGA on Sun 16th Jul 2006 00:00 UTC in reply to "Music Store"
MikeGA Member since:
2005-07-22

Indeed, they're even dead simple to turn off in the Prefs.

Reply Score: 1

v Follow the crowd.
by dogen on Sat 15th Jul 2006 21:57 UTC
RE: Follow the crowd.
by Thom_Holwerda on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:10 UTC in reply to "Follow the crowd. "
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

If I was following the crowd... Don't you think I'd be running Windows exclusively?

Reply Score: 1

well
by deanlinkous on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:02 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

he bashes everything....aint that right thom
damn apple/linux/windows/kde/gnome basher....

Reply Score: 5

oh
by deanlinkous on Sat 15th Jul 2006 22:30 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

now he is a dvorak basher.... I KNEW IT!

Yes, linux has gotten quite good. Really a lot of work in the past few years but this past year has really rocked!

Thom has a parade marching past his door? Dang how did he do that. He must be well known huh!

Reply Score: 1

Thom's point
by DigitalAxis on Sat 15th Jul 2006 23:07 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28

I think Thom was intending to say Apple used to stand for great hardware and software, but have fallen behind lately now that, for example, Picasa2 is out, and the failure rates on the latest line of MacBooks have been high profile, and accompanied by an apparent unwillingness on Apple's part to do anything meaningful about them.

At least, that's what I read in this article: that Thom is unwilling to upgrade his Mac because the new ones seem to be a step back in performance and reliability.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Thom's point
by trezzer on Sun 16th Jul 2006 11:19 UTC in reply to "Thom's point"
trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

"At least, that's what I read in this article: that Thom is unwilling to upgrade his Mac because the new ones seem to be a step back in performance and reliability."

Yeah, which could make sense, but it doesn't. I switched from a G4 Powerbook to a MacBook and I've never seen a nicer laptop (yes, that includes MacBook Pros although they have a nice couple of extra features). In fact I haven't seen one single bad review of the MacBook. Oh, and it's actually cooler on the surface than my Powerbook was.

The Minis give you more bang for your buck than before, the iMacs also offer better value and Apple's software continue improving.

The other complaints don't really make much sense either. While I'll admit that there are some nice music players out there (like Quod Libet for instance), I've seen nothing that comes even near the power of iTunes for managing a large music collection. I've tried using alternative players/managers on other platforms, but ended up with iTunes handling things. It's not really surprising that Holwerda hasn't found out just what iTunes can do for him when he hasn't even looked as far as the preferences, where you can turn of all parts of the music store in iTunes (which a lot of people actually prefer to have enabled).

It's also really nothing new that the first revision of a laptop can have problems. In fact most of the iBook G3 line had various issues that weren't really fixed till the iBook G4 came out. And yes, there are problems with some of the new machines. Three of my friends have MacBook Pros and one of them has had hardware issues. So sure, problems do exist. But they are also blown hugely out of proportion and a whiney rant like this really doesn't do anything to improve that.

Oh yeah, and the customer service - that's not really new either. It's been like that for as long as I have owned Macs (10.0.3). It's a pretty good customer service, but while they are still figuring out solutions they tend to be tight lipped and that can be very frustrating indeed. But other than that I don't really have anything to complain about. When I called AppleCare because I had problems with an AirPort base that was outside of warranty I still got a couple of helpful hints that helped fix the problem.


Now, I have not used Picasa and can't say how well it compares to iPhoto, but there's not really anything weird about how iPhoto stores its files. It's humanly readable even though it's automated and like iTunes it's powerful when it comes to handling the photos (not quite as much as iTunes but still...).

Oh, am I the only one who finds it mildly amusing that the same guy who advocated using MS Word files for interoperability prefers a fully open sourced OS out of ideological reasons by the way?

Not liking iWeb, well, I can't really argue about that, because I'm not a big fan either. But it makes a good foundation for what is so special about the Mac. See, there's this little app called RapidWeaver which makes excellent web sites. Thanks to how well everything is integrated on the Mac, you can use all the various parts of your personal data to build your site in no time. Want to add music? Access your iTunes library directly from RapidWeaver. Want to add pictures? Just as easy.

And that's the thing really. Even third party apps tend to make a better impression than third party apps on other operating systems (crude generalisation here) and that's part of what makes a Mac a more productive machine. You spend less time organizing and more time getting things done. At least that's the case for me.

I guess I could do most of my work in other operating systems, but when I can have things nicely integrated with some of the nicest hardware on the planet - why bother? The little extra money I spend on buying the machine is easily saved in the time I don't have to spend mucking about with stuff later - it's not even a lot of money extra mind you. Getting a laptop with the exact same features and capabilities out of the box is hard if not impossible at the same price point (and I'm talking hardware + software here) unless you want to go with a Linux distro. I have some Linux distros running and while they usually work just fine I'm far from willing to work on them full-time. Again it's the question of how easy things come together.

Reply Score: 2

@dogen
by foljs on Sat 15th Jul 2006 23:14 UTC
foljs
Member since:
2006-01-09

When all the cool guys were slobbering after Apple Thom went slobbering too. Now all the cool guys are saying krApple sucks and Thom echoes that too. Some people just have a compulsion to follow whatever parade is marching past their door.

This is correct but inaccurate: it's not the "cool guys" that were once slobbering and now leaving Apple, it's the famous nerds (a.k.a "alpha geeks") like Mark Pilgrim and Tim Bray. The cool guys used and still use Apple (and I mean real scientists -biologists, geologists, etc-, movie editors and directors, photographers, musicians, top notch journalists and such). So there...

Reply Score: 5

RE: @dogen
by collywolly on Mon 17th Jul 2006 12:24 UTC in reply to "@dogen"
collywolly Member since:
2006-06-19

The cool guys used and still use Apple (and I mean real scientists -biologists, geologists, etc-, movie editors and directors, photographers, musicians, top notch journalists and such).

Playing with a compter is not "cool". I still enjoy it, but it is not somthing I consider cool. I have worked in bioinformatics, and they were the least cool group of people I have ever met. The few individuals in that workplace that were cool, were the ones who turned their computer off at the end of the day and went mountain biking or clubbing or something different from playing with their computers. (They usually used Windows at home).

I suppose you reckon your iPod "sexy" as well.....

Reply Score: 3

MacBook Pro problems
by grabberslasher on Sat 15th Jul 2006 23:16 UTC
grabberslasher
Member since:
2006-02-09

The 15" MacBook Pro and MacBooks do have some serious quality control problems. However, I recently upgraded to a 17" MacBook Pro myself from a 1.5GHz 17" PowerBook G4. My MBP has absolutely no problems, it's not overly hot, it doesn't have weird noises coming from it at all. In fact, my PowerBook used to whine every time I touched the mouse pad. The MBP is completely silent, and is stunning in performance in comparison. The added advantages of being able to run Windows [Vista] and play modern games [CoD2, Quake4] are awesome.

Heatwise - yes, the MBP gets hot. But only a fraction more than my old PowerBook.

Reply Score: 2

mrhasbean
Member since:
2006-04-03

Q. Has Linux improved?
A. No doubt.

Q. Is it ready for the prime time Mum and Dad, Grandma and Grandpa user?
A. Not even close - and before you flame me, yes I regularly use and test the new flash distros that everyone raves about killing Windows and OSX.

Q. Has Apple hardware dropped in reliability?
A. Undoubtedly.

Q. Do they still kick everyone elses butt all over the park with customer satisfaction and loyalty?
A. Check the articles for yourself.

Q. Are consumers the biggest influence on quality of the product through wanting more for less?
A. You better believe it.

Q. Is there still a major differentiator between iLife and competing products?
A. If anything, the gap has widened. Comparing one application - Picassa - with iPhoto, and saying YOU find it easier to use doesn't mean its better. It might very well be, but do a feature by feature comparison to show us, not just claim that because YOU find it easier to use it is better. Then we come to the aspects like integration across applications. iLife is a solution, with TOTAL integration, with the SAME tools and SAME interface across applications. My complaint about iLife is that it seems to be a little buggier than it used to be, but as applications grow in complexity and features that tends to happen, and the bugs are being addressed.

My issue with your articles Thom is that you go off half cocked dumping on stuff because of your PERSONAL likes and dislikes. You don't do true comparison's of things and look at bigger picture issues. The main problem is that the article titles are therefore misleading, like this one suggesting that there are very valid reasons why people should avoid buying a new MacBook. Something like "Why a MacBook doesn't fit with what I want from a computer." would probably be more appropriate - but then I suppose a title like that wouldn't get as many click would it?

Reply Score: 5

progster Member since:
2005-07-27

"The Sunday eve column will be exactly what the name implies. Every Sunday eve (Central European Time) I will publish a short editorial column in which I address various issues and matters about topics we cover on OSNews. However, please remember the difference between a editorial column and a true article: columns are heavily opinionated. Heavily.

As such, do not treat them as thorough articles either. Because, as I said, they're not."


I don't think I need to say more...

Reply Score: 4

JMcCarthy Member since:
2005-08-12

Your comments would be appropriate if the name of the article was "Why you should not buy a new (intel) Mac'

Reply Score: 2

...
by Snifflez on Sun 16th Jul 2006 06:21 UTC in reply to "I can't believe I'm posting to this tripe..."
Snifflez Member since:
2005-11-15

"Q. Is it ready for the prime time Mum and Dad, Grandma and Grandpa user?
A. Not even close - and before you flame me, yes I regularly use and test the new flash distros that everyone raves about killing Windows and OSX."


Ummm... It might very well be, but do a feature by feature comparison to show us, not just claim that because YOU don't find it easier to use, it is worse. Does that sound familiar? Sure it does.

"My issue with your articles Thom is that you go off half cocked dumping on stuff because of your PERSONAL likes and dislikes. You don't do true comparison's of things and look at bigger picture issues. The main problem is that the article titles are therefore misleading, like this one suggesting that there are very valid reasons why people should avoid buying a new MacBook. Something like "Why a MacBook doesn't fit with what I want from a computer." would probably be more appropriate - but then I suppose a title like that wouldn't get as many click would it?"

You are either a) blind, or b) intentionally blind. Do yourself a favour and re-read the title of Thom's article as many times as necessary until you fully comprehend its meaning. Meanwhile, please refrain from posting any thoughts on it. Contrary to what you apparently happen to believe, ignorance and stupidity do not constitute a valid point of view.

Reply Score: 4

My reasons for not buying an Intel
by ValiantSoul on Sun 16th Jul 2006 00:05 UTC
ValiantSoul
Member since:
2005-07-20

1) I have a Quad PowerMac G5 that runs amazing and provides me everything I need:
1) Logic is great for when I get in the mood to record some of my music that I write
2) I am a programmer, and typically write in ANSI-C or Java, so platform is not too important
3) I like PowerPC assembler
4) I use Vue 5 Infinite, AchriCAD, and Cinema 4D when I work with graphics, all of which work great on the Mac. Plus the only one I even care about keeping up to date is Vue and they are continuing support for PPC
5) I'm not too much of a gamer. The only games I play a lot are Worms 3D and Unreal Tournament 2004.
2) Some great things about the G5 architecture:
1) The processors have a very small pipeline, so a 2.5GHz G5 runs much faster than a 2.5GHz Pentium. For those that don't know exactly how this matters, the pipeline constantly gets bad blocks of code, and when it does it must clear its pipeline and refill it to continue execution. Smaller pipeline=less time to refill=faster
2) 64-bit. New Intel based Macs are 32-bit as far as I understand
3) DDR2 memory is great. The Intel Macs of course have this as well, but it is no reason for me to switch to an Intel because I already have it.
3) Alternative OSs
1) Sure linux can be good, but I really really don't care for it. FreeBSD can do everythign linux can, but do it faster and run more stable. So I don't care about the idea of linux on my machine
2) Windows: The only thing I liked about Windows is Counter-Strike and Minesweeper. I'm not a big gamer though so I can live without Counter-Strike, and there are of course Minesweepers for Mac.
3) FreeBSD: I love FreeBSD but the fact that new Macs are Intel provides me no reason to switch because I would then have to reboot everytime I wanted what I wasn't in. Plus I have a pentium 3 system right next to my PowerMac that only has FreeBSD on it.
4) Support rebuttle
1) Yes some people have bad experiences with Apple support, but no one can provide perfect support all of the time. They have always helped me with no hesitation.
2) Try calling Dell's support, or any other support. They outsource to India, and I have nothing against people from India, but they are usually very very hard to understand, and not trained nearly enough to even provide close to descent support.

In short: I love my PowerMac and will not upgrade until I absolutelly must.

Edited 2006-07-16 00:07

Reply Score: 0

rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

2) Some great things about the G5 architecture:
1) The processors have a very small pipeline, so a 2.5GHz G5 runs much faster than a 2.5GHz Pentium.


The G5 actually has a very long pipeline. At 16 stages, it's 33% longer than the pipeline on an Opteron or Pentium Pro. It also has a 2-stage integer execution pipeline, which is twice as long as the integer execution pipeline on most CPUs.

In practice, the G5's IPC isn't that great. It's quite good for floating-point code, but on integer code, but not so great for integer code. It gets 575 SPECint/GHz. That's a little better than a Pentium 4 (which at least scales to very high clockspeeds), but much lower than an Opteron (750), Core Duo (800+), or Core Duo 2 (1000+).

2) 64-bit. New Intel based Macs are 32-bit as far as I understand

Which would be great if OS X supported it for more than CLI apps.

3) DDR2 memory is great. The Intel Macs of course have this as well, but it is no reason for me to switch to an Intel because I already have it.

DDR2-667+ is great. The PowerMac uses DDR2-533. That's a speed-grade where DDR2 doesn't clock higher enough than DDR1 to make up for its inherently higher latency.

The PowerMac G5 is a very solid machine (I love mine), and throwing 4 cores in a system will make up for a lot of inefficiency, but its not a great design. Apple designed a pretty shitty memory controller for it, which hurts it a lot in practice. Moreover, it's the first-gen iteration of the Power4/5 core, and as such its missing a lot of the improvements that IBM made in Power5 to improve its integer IPC (from ~600 to ~800).

Reply Score: 5

harcalion Member since:
2005-07-12

Smaller pipeline=less time to refill=faster

That's essentially false.
1. A 2.5 Ghz G5 doesn't run faster than a P4 2.5 Ghz because of the (length of the) pipeline (if at all). The PowerPC 970MP (G5) has a 16 stage-pipeline, while the P4 had a 20 stage-pipeline (later 31) and the new Intel Macs (Core Duo) have a 12 stage-pipeline.
2. A pipeline is built for speed, that is, the longer (or deeper) the pipeline, the faster the execution (a greater number of instructions completed per second, throughput). It's true that in cases of branches the pipeline must be emptied, but branch predictors and code reordering reduce the time misused.

As a conclusion, it is generally known that Intel regretted the excesive depth of the P4 pipeline, so they reduced it in new processors. Following the "minimum pipeline" ideology, you should go for a new Intel Mac.

EDIT: wrote at the same time that rayiner's comment

Edited 2006-07-16 01:08

Reply Score: 3

rayiner Member since:
2005-07-06

I think the Intel design is often unfairly maligned.

Netburst was based on some research that suggested that if you look at the trade-off between the IPC loss afforded by long pipelines versus the increased clockspeed afforded by long pipelines, the sweet-spot was a lot higher than the 10-12 pipe stages found in most processors. Indeed, they found the sweet-spot somewhere around 50 pipeline stages.

The problem with the design was a combination of an over-ambitious design, and some process-technology limits that they couldn't have predicted. What really killed them was the scaling issue, of course. The Northwood P4 scaled to 3 GHz at 130nm. Using the traditional frequency scaling factor of 1.3 per process shrink, it should be running at 5 GHz by now, on a 65nm process. At 5 GHz, it'd get a SPECint of about 2500, which would've been quite good. Of course, they could never even get to 4 GHz, but its unreasonable to expect them to have predicted that at the time.

They also did make some mistakes in the design, in retrospect. Pipelining isn't a perfectly efficient process. Splitting certain tasks over multiple pipeline stages results in control hazards that lower IPC beyond what you'd expect from the extra branch misprediction penalty. There are ways to solve these issues, but each of the fixes is a PHD thesis or two, and there is no way you can stuff that much new tech into a single design. The trace cache probably wasn't a great idea either. Trace caches were originally designed to increase the instruction fetch bandwidth available to a wide OOO core. The P4 was a relatively narrow core, so that advantage was largely unused. Instead, it was used mainly as a technique to allow the storage of predecoded x86 uops, but given the relatively large size of a uop, and the 2-3x overhead of a non-clever trace cache design (again, another PHD thesis or two), as well as the rigorous cycle time requirements of the P4, which necessitated relatively small caches to begin with, it wasn't very well suited for the design.

Reply Score: 5

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Mate, there is no use trying to explain basic facts to the PowerPC fanboys. Intel acknowledged the flaws in its Netburst design and as such, with the Core 2, made a radical change in direction.

The new processor has a 14 stage pipe line, bigger cache, can complete one SSE instruction pet clock cycle rather than taking 2, there is micro-op fusion, faster front side bus (1066Mhz).

By enlarge, Intel has not only come back to beat AMD, but also justifies Apple's switch to Intel, couple that with the vastly improved 965 graphics chipset, Steve Jobs can rightly sit on his throne with a smug face saying, "I told you so".

Reply Score: 3

ValiantSoul Member since:
2005-07-20

Well then thank you and rayiner for correcting my misunderstandings! I think I will go and buy a new Intel Mac ... but no too soon - I will wait probably a year after the Intel PowerMacs come out (for money purposes, and to get a second revision)

Reply Score: 1

Crap
by pgquiles on Sun 16th Jul 2006 00:19 UTC
pgquiles
Member since:
2006-07-16

Wow, what a load of crap.

MacBooks are the best value for price in the market right now. You can run Mac OS X, Windows, Linux, FreeBSD, whatever on them.

Did I say a Mac is the best Unix workstation out there? Well, in case I had not, I just did.

Unless you will be a Linux user most of the time OR you are going to play games or something that needs a powerful graphics card, there is no excuse not to buy a MacBook. I'm sorry, but they are no longer expensive.

PS: I'm a Linux user 100% of my time.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Crap
by drsmoothy on Sun 16th Jul 2006 03:46 UTC in reply to "Crap"
drsmoothy Member since:
2005-07-06

Unless you will be a Linux user most of the time OR you are going to play games or something that needs a powerful graphics card, there is no excuse not to buy a MacBook. I'm sorry, but they are no longer expensive.

I bought a Core Duo Dell w/ 1gb ram, a 1400 1050 WSXGA+ Glossy screen and DL-DVD Burner for $650 (thanks to Fatwallet).

A comparable MacBook does not exist, even coming close would cost almost 3 times that.

In addition, the MacBook has a shit magnet that slams the cover shut and a keyboard that just doesn't feel right with the segmented keys. It also doesn't have a second mouse button.

I to am a Linux user 100% of the time now, and for me the MacBook is just not a winning proposition.

I used to have an iBook (till my g/f dropped it). I thought for sure I'd buy the MacBook in favor of it, but I don't like the shit Apple passes off as hardware these days.

Reply Score: 2

x86 crapitechture
by cutterjohn on Sun 16th Jul 2006 00:38 UTC
cutterjohn
Member since:
2006-01-28

Yes, Apple "switched" to Intel for ONE reason ONLY, that of having an excessive number of "free" motherboard designs available. (IBM/Motorola had no real reference design boards, period).

So, Apple fires alll of their old architecture staff, and now we get a bunch of bone standard Intel mbs... woot, long live Apple as a (has been)pre-eminent hw architecture house...

hahahahahahahaha

Personally, with the ABSOLUTE dearth of MacOS games, and Apple's continued idiocies I have once again abandoned the "macplatform", and this time permanently.. no games, crap Intel arch, etc. oh yes Apple provide such incredible incentives... (free clue just buy whatever is cheapest in x86 crapitechture and you will be fine for at least the next century...just don;t buy AMDF products ATM...)

Reply Score: 1

Ok so now im really lost!
by jackeebleu on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:01 UTC
jackeebleu
Member since:
2006-01-26

Back in the day, people used to scream how expensive macs were, now they are as cheap as PC's and still as functional them, if not more, and know theres a whole batch of new bitching? it's not open source - to that i say, stop being a cheap a$$, i appreciate the open source movement i do, but what pisses me off about it is people like Thom feeling like free software equals free from cost, so some idiot does all the work for the love of saying look what i can create just like (fill in the blank with named closed source product" in a round about way and give away for free, so now anything that is included in the cost of the machine (namely iLife, et al) that isnt open is bad? GTFOOH!!! Since Apple's resurgence their consumer level apps have been the best of breed and introduced mp3's and managing/buying music/videos to the masses, sorry if that isnt nerdy enough for you, then he closes out by saying he cant afford it anyway, so why complain? Thom, i officially charge you with attention whoring.

Reply Score: 1

*yawn*
by rdwtux on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:18 UTC
rdwtux
Member since:
2006-02-11

"If the author is interested in neither Apple software nor Apple hardware and is short on cash, why does he want to buy a G4 PowerMac instead of, say, a PC from Dell?"

I agree. The article seems to waste a lot of breath without any point. I could write an article about how I'm not going to buy a new Escalade. I certainly can't afford it... and some of the features they include in the vehicle really don't interest me.

Edited 2006-07-16 01:23

Reply Score: 3

Hardware complaints WAY overblown...
by Milo_Hoffman on Sun 16th Jul 2006 01:28 UTC
Milo_Hoffman
Member since:
2005-07-06

I looked at these complaints/rumors very MUCH before I made my purchasing decisions since I have never owned an apple before.


As near as I can tell, almost ALL of the complaints on the net were started by ONE person saying that they saw it with ONE system.

Example: ONE guy reported seeing some plastic flaking on a black macbook at an applestore, posted the pics on flikr and suddenly we have a worldwide rumor of plastic problems on the black macbooks.


Two things I have been convinced of:

1) News travels all the way around the world FAST on the net...just one person can post pics on flickr and nearly every person intersted in technology will know about it.

2) People complain FAR more often and loudly than they praise.


End result, I bought my first TWO macs this year. A macbook, and a intel mini.

And frankly, they are GREAT and I LOVE them.

Reply Score: 4

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

OH, I agree, alot of it is rumour; some hick in the middle of no where complains that something has happened, then this gets spread in the old, "i know someone....." and before you know it, you have chinese whispers going through the internet, with each person the information reaches, the story becomes bigger and bolder than it really was.

It goes from being "MacBook has faulty batter" to "MacBook battery leaks battery acid" to "MacBook leaks battery acid and child is terribly sick" to "MacBook leaks battery acid and catches on fire" to the final statement of "MacBook leaks battery acid, one child dead and a house burnt down".

When I purchased my eMac, people were making bold claims about things going wrong, well, my 1Ghz eMac worked perfectly fine for the 2 1/2 years I owned it (sold it, and now owned by an individual for 1 1/2 years without a single fault), without a single fault. Same can be said for my iMac G5 as well, and my iBook G3. All of them worked reliable, like another person said in this forum, you never hear from those who have never experienced a problem, its always the rumoured person from the middle of no where, that no one has ever heard of, experiencing problems with a Mac that can't be verified to actually have existed.

Edited 2006-07-16 02:00

Reply Score: 2

Some thoughts and experiences
by stack on Sun 16th Jul 2006 02:21 UTC
stack
Member since:
2005-07-06

There have been a lot of reports of bad hardware with the Mac Book / Mac Book Pro. The question I have is, how many people aren't?

I went today to the Apple store because a problem with my Mac Book Pro (bad battery). If you haven't used their Genius Bar, which is their tech support desk in the store, it's really nice. You reserve a time on the internet. They have a large LCD above the desk that shows who is up next. The tech was extremely nice and helpful. I was in and out in 30 minutes, most of which was because we had to wait for the battery to fail on my laptop.

I'm not trying to defend Apple. I'm just posting this because the only posts your hear of Apple as of late are the people complaining, loudly.

Reply Score: 2

mabino
Member since:
2006-07-16

I'm primarily a Mac user but also a user of Linux and Windows (Solaris, IRIX, FreeBSD, blah blah). I'm now an OSNews user as I've registered to respond to your post.

I believe some of your original reasons for buying a Mac remain true while others may have been a bit misguided. I will not address those here. I believe some of your conclusions are accurate (iLife needs to take it to the next level, pronto) while others are off base (Poor customer service? Huh?). I will not address those here either.

The reason for this post is the topic you failed to address in your argument. Its actually the reason why the Mac has remained my primary working environment for so long. Namely, you do not address the 'insanely great' third party applications exclusive to the Mac. Some of these programs have become so integral to my workflow that I have a hard time being as efficient on other platforms when the task is to get real world work done (not just platform maintenance, gaming or tinkering).

I recently found merit in an upgrade to an Intel Mac simply because it so dramatically increased the performance of some of the best applications I know of in existence (not to mention the recent virtualization developments). My question to you is twofold: Are any exclusive third party Mac apps essential to the efficiency of your workflow? If so, did you factor in the speed penalty with the choice of an older processor for both present and future use of those apps?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: My reasons for not buying an Intel
by sbenitezb on Sun 16th Jul 2006 03:01 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

"By enlarge, Intel has not only come back to beat AMD"

Well, right now AMD is kicking Intel's ass. Their new processors perform usually better than Intel ones, are cheaper and colder. Intel has a lot of work to do to beat AMD. They've lost the train when AMD launched 64 bits. How much it will take them to recover their market place depends on their creativeness, more than their money.

Reply Score: 1

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

I don't know what rock you've been hiding under, but here are the facts: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-6094356.html

AMD is getting its ass handed to it on a platter; 2004 calls, they want their netburst back; how about doing some reading for once instead of spouting off utter crap about issues you know NOTHING about.

The Core Duo 2 not only out performs but uses LESS energy than the current crop of AMD hardware; all AMD has going for it is the eventual move to 65mn and strained silicon; Intel has firmly won back its place as 'top dog'.

Like I said, this is the *one* instance where Apple chose its cards right from the outset; Apple is now in a position, alligned with a company who are producing the most efficient, fastest chips on the market.

Reply Score: 3

Q & A
by bubbayank on Sun 16th Jul 2006 04:07 UTC
bubbayank
Member since:
2005-07-15

Q: Why did I read any of this?

A: I'm a sucker

Reply Score: 3

One thought and phrase comes to mind...
by tyrione on Sun 16th Jul 2006 04:37 UTC
tyrione
Member since:
2005-11-21

"Crime me a ****in' river!"

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: My reasons for not buying an Intel
by sbenitezb on Sun 16th Jul 2006 04:43 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

I don't buy into cooked benchmarks. The truth is in real life applications. Besides, most applications don't make full use of threads to gain much advantage from a two core processor. This is mostly a server processor, even if they state it's faster for office productivity. Guess what, people are still using older processors with newer office packages without problems. Games run on monocore processor and most of the work is done by the GPU. The truth is most people don't need a multicore processor.

Benchmarks? Who cares, only stupids that buy the shit the marketing guys promote. I buy what works and is proven. I wouldn't ever buy a recently launched product until it's been in the marke for a while and enough people tested it in real life to see any advantage over competitors.

Intel haven't won its place back. It's still to be seen.

Apple has a well known record of making mistakes. I doubt this is a mistake. But taken the 2 major chip makers to choose from, is not that hard to align with one of them, because both are good and promise a lot. I think it's more a matter of money in the middle.

Reply Score: 1

RE: My reasons for not buying an Intel
by uteck on Sun 16th Jul 2006 05:45 UTC
uteck
Member since:
2006-07-16

Dell does not outsource to India anymore. They got a lot of bad press over the decision and they moved it back to Texas and Oklahoma. My last job had me calling Dell support a lot and they were all Americans, and I personally know one person on the gold support team.

Reply Score: 1

macisaac Member since:
2005-08-28

I think they moved some of their support back to the US, but not all. If you call for consumer level desktop support, I think it's still India. But if you're calling for enterprise level support (servers, etc.) you'll go through the US. At least it sounded that way when I was calling for support on a poweredge, but ended up talking to a desktop person first.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Boring...
by uteck on Sun 16th Jul 2006 06:11 UTC
uteck
Member since:
2006-07-16

The complaints come from the excessive price of a point upgrade, but thoughs that are complaining tend not to own the hardware. And after the first few releases the complaints stopped as people got used to it. Remember that Apple OS upgrades used to be FREE.

You have a pont with Linux's application support. Business to not consider using Crossover Office as a viable option for running software. But you are totally wrong about hardware support. The last few years have seen a dramatic increase in driver support to the point were many Linux users do not think about if new hardware is supported or not.
Also the ease of use argument is not a factor until Linux comes preinstalled on computers. Since it has to be installed by the user, it does not get done because the majority of Windows users can not install Windows. I have seen 'experienced' Mac users stumble over some basic things because they don't know how OSX works and old way of doing things does not work. Face it, the majority of people just use what is in front of them and call someone to fix to when it breaks.

Even after all the Apple hype of the past few years, it's user base is still the same.

Reply Score: 1

Cheaper
by Duffman on Sun 16th Jul 2006 08:19 UTC
Duffman
Member since:
2005-11-23

" To put it bluntly: my confidence in Apple supplying me with superior hardware quality has gotten seriously dented. I today no longer see Apple as superior in this aspect compared to its competitors."

You have also to take the "cheaper" argument in account.
Everybody was asking Apple to make their hardware cheaper since a long time. Their hardware are cheaper now but "at a cost".

For example, when you look at the price of the first powerbook G4 17" laptop, it was around 4185. Now the macbook pro price is about 2799.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Crap
by pgquiles on Sun 16th Jul 2006 09:47 UTC
pgquiles
Member since:
2006-07-16

You bought a white-box laptop!? I'm sorry, but that's a stupid buy.

What will happen when the inverter breaks and your screen goes black, who is going to repair it?

What happens when your keyboard breaks and you cannot buy a new Z key?

What happens when your DVD drive stops working and you won't find perfect-fit replacement, are you going to buy an external unit or maybe you will buy a drive which stands out of the frame?

Never buy a white-box laptop. Never. The moment you have a problem, the moment you will be pissed off.

Reply Score: 2

The author is typical.
by amavida on Sun 16th Jul 2006 10:45 UTC
amavida
Member since:
2006-06-26

I think there are many former Mac owners who are reconsidering their next purchase in the same way that the author is. I know that I am thinking the same way.

I have suffered through all the seismic shifts of Apple over the years. When I bought my 64bit G5's, Apple was telling us it was the greatest thing & just wait for even better G5's & behind our back secretly working on making our investment artificially obsolete _AGAIN_.

Taken with Apple's moves to ram DRM down my throat the same as MS I'm thinking that I may as well just purchase inexpensive Wintel machines & use a Linux/BSD.

I don't buy the argument that Mactel's have become as cheap as Wintel machines. Casual comparison shows that clearly they are not for all but the highest end machines.

As they beome due for replacement our business & personal machines are being changed out for Acer laptops for example running a mix of mostly Linux & some Windows where Linux cannot be used (yet).

Mac OS X is nice but not significantly better than a Linux/BSD now (for our needs).

Our experience of Apple warranty/support as Mac owners is not good ( unless you inflate the price further & fork over more dosh for their pricey 'Applecare'). Our G5 Powermacs have arrived with problems from day one & the attitude of Apple & it's dealers is bored indifference to say the least.

One last point, buying habits are changing. Many folks bought the fastest most expensive machines on the upgrade treadmill in the past but these day's even the lowest end machines are plenty capable of just about every task asked of them. Hence it's more attractive to buy a commodity Wintel macine in favour of the premium priced Mactels.

Edited 2006-07-16 10:49

Reply Score: 2

factually incorrect
by cesman on Sun 16th Jul 2006 10:54 UTC
cesman
Member since:
2006-05-30

First, Apple support has been rated tops by almost every survey, including Consumer Reports. Consumer Reports also has rated Apple hardware reliability near the top for laptops and desktops for several years now.

If you don't like the iTunes music store, turn it off (check out the preferences in iTunes.

Picassa 2 is not better than iPhoto. It can't do many things iPhoto can do (eg, full screen editing, create books, order photos directly from the app without going to another site), and lacks the integration features of iLife (working with a movie editing program, website program, etc.).

Reply Score: 1

RE: factually incorrect
by amavida on Sun 16th Jul 2006 11:35 UTC in reply to "factually incorrect"
amavida Member since:
2006-06-26

You can quote all the surveys you want, my business & household buy many machines & our experience of Apple support is not so hot...

Reply Score: 1

The Processor does not matter
by mlbrooke on Sun 16th Jul 2006 11:36 UTC
mlbrooke
Member since:
2006-02-25

Hello

When I first heard about Apple switching to Intel, I like many others felt OMG this is it, Apple selling out, what the use.

I brought a Imac G5 and then Switched to an Imac Core duo and and absolutely amazed by it, the little things that just happen when you'd expect but that don't with windows.

I am still amazed that any Camera, USB storage device, etc etc just works when I connect it, I don't have to install a single driver as its all there.

Then the small things like iTunes automatically pausing as a skype call comes in, a Remote control that will change volume and skip tracks regardless of what application you are using and will also start up FrontRow at anytime, This is the key difference when you control the hardware you can make things like this work together without the hassles of a difficult PC world. I now love Mac's and will continue to use them, but I know there is a PC world too :-)

I agree that iTunes is no longer special but it works well for playing music and is easy to use, Windows Media player 10 has all these extra features which make it difficult to navigate around.

iWeb on the other hand is excellent, I am now able to have my own blog and make websites as I wish without any HTML experience, its just like using a Desktop publishing app to position and publish.

Apple have not got some thing correct, an Intel Imac should not have 512 MB of ram, 1 GB is the base point as all it will do is give users new to OS X a bad taste.

Also they do need to sort their hardware problems out as if the reports I've seen on the net are correct 17% failures are not acceptable in the first year.

Reply Score: 2

Buying an new Intel Mac
by ArcadeFX on Sun 16th Jul 2006 12:11 UTC
ArcadeFX
Member since:
2005-07-06

I still plan on buying a new Intel powered Mac.

In fact, I am planning on buying two at some point.

..and no I am not a Mac fanatic. I have an iBook, two WinXP laptops, AMD64 WinXP 64bit box and a Linux box.

Edited 2006-07-16 12:14

Reply Score: 1

Would someone ...
by aGNUstic on Sun 16th Jul 2006 13:41 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

Would someone please tell me how to add multiple users in Mac OS X server? Seriously! I do not want to purchase a program to add uses when this should be a feature of the OS.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Would someone ...
by netpython on Mon 17th Jul 2006 14:29 UTC in reply to "Would someone ..."
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

useradd -c comment -d home directory -e expiration date -f inactive days -g primary
(default) group -G secondary groups -m -s shell -u user id accountname

To view one of the databases, such as a listing of current users, you can type the following:
niutil -read . /groups

Mac OS X is a notable
exception. The /etc/passwd, /etc/shadow, and /etc/group files exist, but are used by the sys-
tem only for single-user mode

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Would someone ...
by aGNUstic on Mon 17th Jul 2006 15:49 UTC in reply to "RE: Would someone ..."
aGNUstic Member since:
2005-07-28

Seriously. Thank you! A major step forward for me.

Since I was the Linux person they gave me the responsibility of an old Mac OS X server.

Adding a list of multiple users on Mac continues to be a goal

Reply Score: 2

not agree
by @@__@@ on Sun 16th Jul 2006 14:24 UTC
@@__@@
Member since:
2005-07-29

Think Tom not bright boy. Testing ubuntu on G4 iBook last weeks. No bad, better is still wanted. Other my machine is Powerbook G4 on OSX. Better, faster, brighter. no linux for me, thank you, not yet. maybe one or two year in future, who knows?

Well, Tom is poor Dutch boy. Me too.

Reply Score: 1

why i don't recommend apple
by bonjour on Sun 16th Jul 2006 14:35 UTC
bonjour
Member since:
2005-07-12

i disagree with the conclusion by this author, buying a used g4 cube is ridiculously insane and here's why:

if you open up the apple cube or any apple for that matter, there are commodity based parts that you can replace or upgrade by going to the local store. however, there are questionable pieces that make replacement nearly impossible or ridiculously expensive. power supply, motherboard, processor, video card, and case.

let me explain: my mirror door dual 1.25 ghz g4 powermac recently broke down after 2.5 years of great usage. it suddenly just shut down and there was a weird sound coming from the power supply. the power button no longer responded, the powermac just sat idle. having built several pc computers, i cracked the case open for some root cause analysis. there were no lights on the motherboard or nic port so i suspected the power supply. the motherboard looked reasonably intact in that i didn't see any leaking capacitors or burn spots. so i thought it'd be easy to replace the power supply. however, if you look at the g4 mirror door power supply, and i'm certain the power supplies for any of the powermacs including the g5 and g4 cube, you'll see that the power supply is non-standard. the g4 mdd powermac has a long, slender power supply. it is about half the height of standard pc power supplies and the reason is because the video card (geforce ti4200) is extra long and in order to close the case, the power supply has to be long and thin. looked on ebay, the parts were selling for $150 and it looked like a used part. plus all the cabling was buried very inconveniently.

went down to compusa and purchased a nice 400 W antec power supply for something like 90$, could have purchased a cheaper one, but i wanted some quality. disconnected all the old power cables and connected all the new power cables. no power, no light, no fan, nothing. what i suspect is happening is that the power button for the case is bad. so i thought about swapping the case out for a standard pc case, sigh, loved the powermac g4 case. but looking at the motherboard design, it's an inverted atx, meaning that the pci slots are at the right of the board and the ethernet, sound, and other ports are to the left. no motherboard has been manufactured that way ever! so in other words, i couldn't just buy a standard case or power supply. it has to be apple.

now all my hfs/hfs+ formatted data resides on the hard drive. i've had to use third party tools to extract all my data.

itunes is locked up in the hfs format. the video card for the g4/g5 powermacs have to have the apple openfirmware byte code in order to run, in other words you can't just buy a regular pc video card and plug it into your g5, it has to be apple based which is usually more costly.

don't get me wrong, i love apple and i can probably repair the thing for less than $200, but i don't want to have to go to a specialized dealer to repair my mac. i want my mac at home, i'm savvy enough to do repairs on my own. i don't want to mail my computer to apple or purchase apple care, it would take a week to get it back. if one of my pc's broke, i'd simply find a replacement part, carry over all my working parts, and would be back up and running.

apple has locked me into their platform in many devious ways. not sure if they've done it on purpose, but it's annoying. how, for example to i get to all my itunes music, i'd have to reformat my ipod to fat32 which would erase all my data. i could of course borrow someone else's mac or purchase a new one. but these are absurdities that i wouldn't have to deal with on the truly open x86 platforms like linux.

i love apple software, but the hardware has been a pain in the ass to deal with. glad that they're going with intel. not glad that they're forcing everything to be certified efi capable firmware. this means that i still may not be able to replace parts on my own or will have to find compatible devices.

my next purchase maybe a system similar to apple, but i don't want to purchase a high cost apple system. i will build my own and it will cost probably half as much. i will put linux on my system, using reiserfs. in terms of getting to my hfs enabled ipod, i will probably get the cheapest mac either used or new around $599. apple is relagated to a small function. linux or windows have been much better in terms of the open platform support.

btw, i use my apple as a general desktop, iphoto, pages, keynote, office, browsing, starcraft, dvd, dvd encoding, development (cocoa/php/objective c/java/python/c/c++), music, etc. i don't need specialized apple software such as photo or video rendering apps, so that's where i may differ from you.

Reply Score: 5

RE: why i don't recommend apple
by pyramiao on Sun 16th Jul 2006 14:53 UTC in reply to "why i don't recommend apple"
pyramiao Member since:
2006-05-14

I really hope you didn't connect that PC power supply to your motherboard, not sure how you could I thought that was impossible since the connectors were different (24 pins versus 20 pins on ATX), otherwise you have probably destroyed your motherboard.
Personally I do wish that Apple used standard parts (or at least the PC pin outs) for the powersupplies since at least we could do what you tried to do (to get the data off).

-------------------
Edited since it should have been 24 pins for the mirror door macs rather than 22.

Edited 2006-07-16 15:09

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: why i don't recommend apple
by bogomipz on Mon 17th Jul 2006 07:49 UTC in reply to "RE: why i don't recommend apple"
bogomipz Member since:
2005-07-11

ATX power supplies come with 20 or 24 pins, and if your supply doesn't match your mobo, you can get a simple adapter. That doesn't necessarily mean that Apple's motherboards can use ATX power supplies, but the problem is not the number of pins.

Reply Score: 1

kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Then there is the blood obvious; how many vendors make power supplies that fit into the iMac form factor.

Reply Score: 1

RE: why i don't recommend apple
by apoc on Sun 16th Jul 2006 15:15 UTC in reply to "why i don't recommend apple"
apoc Member since:
2006-03-24

"now all my hfs/hfs+ formatted data resides on the hard drive. i've had to use third party tools to extract all my data. "

plug the drive into a windows pc and use macdrive.

http://www.mediafour.com/products/macdrive6/

Reply Score: 1

RE: why i don't recommend apple
by netpython on Sun 16th Jul 2006 15:46 UTC in reply to "why i don't recommend apple"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

my next purchase maybe a system similar to apple, but i don't want to purchase a high cost apple system. i will build my own and it will cost probably half as much.

At the moment i wouldn't buy a laptop from Apple.Even if i had the money.The quality simply isn't on par with the amount of money spend.Looks are just icing on the cake but worthless if the cake itself doesn't taste well.

I would never buy a desktop from them.I just like to build my own PC's too (more and better hardware to choose from).I too have never brought my stuff to the dealer for repairs.Buying an Apple means spending a lot of money for my own "laziness" comfort.

I must say in theory the MBP is a nice piece of equipment.But for €2500+ i expect top notch quality and a flawless design.Or they should sell it for half the prize and than i will be their guinee pig:-)

Edited 2006-07-16 15:59

Reply Score: 1

RE: why i don't recommend apple
by skingers6894 on Mon 17th Jul 2006 01:05 UTC in reply to "why i don't recommend apple"
skingers6894 Member since:
2005-08-10

"apple has locked me into their platform in many devious ways. not sure if they've done it on purpose"

Yes they've done it on purpose.

Apple's model is fundamentally different from everyone else. They believe in selling the whole widget. That has been their model since day dot. You either like it or you don't.

My Apple laptops have uptimes measured in months. Only rebooting between OS updates. Yes, I like their whole widget approach. Some people like to fritz around with cases and power supplies. They should buy something else.

Reply Score: 1

alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

His point though, which he documented rather well, is that the design choices which lock you into the platform in many devious ways have no other purpose than to do that.

It is not that they are better graphics cards, cases, main board layouts or power supplies. They are simply different for the sake of being different, so you have to buy your spares from Apple and have your repairs done by Apple.

You may not like to fritz around with cases and power supplies, but you still might like to be able to go to the local computer shop and have them replace your psu with a good quality cost effective one from a major supplier. Apple deliberately designs in such a way that you cannot do it.

Its for your own good, you say. Right.

Reply Score: 4

skingers6894 Member since:
2005-08-10

"is that the design choices which lock you into the platform in many devious ways have no other purpose than to do that. "

"they are simply different for the sake of being different,"

How can you possibly know that?

It's possible you may not be privy to their design decisions or motivations.

Also many of their design choices DON'T lock you into them.

USB for instance, buy USB peripherals for your Mac and you can take them to a PC later - no lock in.

I can even run Windows on my Mac now if I wish - this could be the first step to migrating away from Mac OS X for some.

Why would Apple choose to do these things if there was a lock-in at all costs policy?

It's possible that the reasons for them doing something are not clear to you but it does not necessarily follow that they have done it in a deliberate attempt to screw their customers.

Reply Score: 1

I am too poor to upgrade to a new Intel Mac
by Nycran on Sun 16th Jul 2006 14:53 UTC
Nycran
Member since:
2006-02-06

Let's change the article subject to: I am too poor to upgrade to a new Intel Mac.

and we'll change the article body to:

I like Mac's but there's not enough incentive to upgrade to a new one, and I'm poor, so I'm buying a G4 instead.

-- end article --

But that wouldn't make an interesting article now, would it.

If I may go on my own, slightly off-topic rant, it is my somewhat delusional hope that one day, people will realise and accept that different operating systems suit different people; there is no such thing as a universally superior OS.

I use Windows XP, Windows 2003 Server Edition, FreeBSD, Suse Linux 10 and OSX on a daily basis (seriously), and each serves a good purpose, and each has it's strengths.

One of the problems with the article I think is by reading it you feel as though anyone should be able to use Linux to solve their computing needs, but in reality, what the author is saying is that for their own VERY limited computing needs (photo organising, browsing the web, sending emails, word processing), Linux is fine, and I agree with that.

If however you're an executive, or a graphic designer, or a musician, or an audio engineer, or an accountant, or a lawyer, or indeed anyone who has specific applications they need to run, then the picture is different.

For those people whose needs are simple, I say experiment and find which OS speaks to you.

Reply Score: 3

collywolly Member since:
2006-06-19

what the author is saying is that for their own VERY limited computing needs (photo organising, browsing the web, sending emails, word processing), Linux is fine, and I agree with that.

VERY limited, in that only most of the computer using public want to do those same tasks. Maybe 50% of them will want to do some music oraganisation and burn CD's (my parents aren't up to that yet), and some will want to do crappy presentations, with Powerpoint (or something similar).

With the exception of games, which I assume makes up a reasonable percentage of computer users (though I have no idea how many), these tasks probably cover 90% of the computer users (just a guess, but based on the people I know who own computers - most of them are not techies). Most users are not musiscians / graphic designers / or need to run specific apps.
For those generic tasks that MOST people by a computer for, Windows OS X and Linux will all handle those jobs easily.

Reply Score: 1

going used
by macisaac on Sun 16th Jul 2006 15:28 UTC
macisaac
Member since:
2005-08-28

I've come into the Mac game kind of late, sadly while I _really_ like this used G4 quicksilver powermac I got for free from the uni I work at, and am relatively happy with the powerbook I got from there as well, I really don't see myself ever buying an Intel Mac. I'm just not interested in buying an Intel machine (for various and sundry reasons, some technical (no classic support) and some political (Intel's practices are not something I feel that comfortable supporting with my own cash)).

That means that as a new Mac enthusiast, I'm left with only using an obsolete (or soon to be) version of the OS. Oh well, Macs do remind me of Amigas in a way, I guess this just furthers that.

So, point of all that, it's not such a bad idea going used if you're buying. New apples are generally overpriced (at least when you want a useful configuration on them), you'll get more bang for your buck with a used unit (sort of like the difference in buying a used car that only has 20K on it as opposed to a new model). Mind you, it'll be a tough decision when hardware upgrade time happens at work and I have the choice between a macbook, a thinkpad and a dell... That, and if I was swimming in cash, I'd be sorely tempted to grab a new G5 tower while I still can.

Reply Score: 1

sithgunner
Member since:
2006-02-16

seriously... if this was a blog entry of his own blog, I'd say, well written, good thought about your own problem.

but when it comes to be a public article, please stop talking all this thing personally. it just makes it difficult to read.

you are student with no money? so? people with money also read this and don't care if you have no money and can't afford for design. they don't want you to tell them that's the reason not to buy a Mac.

And I'm sorry your hardware keep failing on you, but I think Apple still is the one to produce hardware with the lastest hardware with great price. in that sense, no competitor can beat Apple at the price, combination of new hardwares, design, quietness and the way it can run all major OS that's available out there.

if this article was supposed to be a public article, you should stop talking for yourself as it's just getting boring talking how iTunes and GarageBand bores you, because of your own lack of interest, not that it has major problem for anyone to use.

So, more like, 'One reason that keeping me from getting Intel Mac' would had been a better title, which is about the heat problem, which is everyone's concern.

To add, your story about Linux can make me laugh, as Linux is way too immature to be a desktop OS. Luckily you're the one with very typical hardwares and your only Language involves single byte characters, not to mention the installation, update, maintain process is silly hard for any average computer users, in contrast Mac can be used by average users just fine with all multibyte characters features ready to be used daily.

so put this back in your blog and next time, write like a public story.

Reply Score: 1

Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

seriously... if this was a blog entry of his own blog, I'd say, well written, good thought about your own problem.

but when it comes to be a public article, please stop talking all this thing personally. it just makes it difficult to read.


Except that this is not an article. It's a column. Get a real newspaper for once to see what they're like ;) .

Reply Score: 1

netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

but I think Apple still is the one to produce hardware with the lastest hardware with great price.

Is it possible to have quad SLI?
I don't like the design of the default case,can i have a different one?

Reply Score: 2

Duffman Member since:
2005-11-23

I don't like the design of the default case,can i have a different one?

I don't think he was talking about the case but about "true" hardware.

Is it possible to have quad SLI?

Hum, no. You got the point. Apple protects his users against themselves. Whom is stupid enough to spend more than 1200$ for a useless quad SLI just to gain a few FPS in CS ?

Well, the same who were believing the myth of megahertz I assume.

Reply Score: 1

netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, the same who were believing the myth of megahertz I assume.

Hum, no. You got the point. Apple protects his users against themselves. Whom is stupid enough to spend more than 1200$ for a useless quad SLI just to gain a few FPS in CS ?

Why is that stupid?
Why isn't it stupid if people spend more on design which can't be translated into performance?

More than half of the world population (feel free to correct me,i don't know the exact number) believes in something they have never seen (Jehova,Allah,God,..).You call them stupid too?

Your perception differs from many others.There's nothing wrong with that exept when it interferes with human dignity.Whatever gives the user his or her perceived computer experience isn't good neither it's wrong in my opinion.Just a matter choice wether voluntary or not.

Reply Score: 1

somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

Hum, no. You got the point. Apple protects his users against themselves. Whom is stupid enough to spend more than 1200$ for a useless quad SLI just to gain a few FPS in CS ?

Well, the same who were believing the myth of megahertz I assume.


Well, if Apple protects people against useless spending so much, then it shouldn't overprice their things so much. You are discrediting your comment with your comment here.

Some people use quad SLI for different purposes than getting few FPS in CS, but then again, I guess you're not past CS yet, but it seems you passed megahertz myth test, which should put you somewhere in 90's.

Reply Score: 1

Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

wah wah wah wah wah stop making me read your opinions wah wah wah wah wah

Hi. Welcome to the World Wide Weberverse. Here on this section of the Internets everything is ostensibly public by default unless otherwise stated. If this is your first visit let me be the first to thank you for stopping by the Information Super Highway and to warn you that you must keep your hands and feet inside of your web client at all times. Please keep an eye out for editorialists, attention whores, and people that dare utter personal opinions about matters for which you may disagree. The majority of the content on some areas is fettered with non-professional displays of "free speech" which might be objectionable to some viewers. Viewer discretion is advised. We hope you enjoy your stay on the World Wide Weberverse, and remember not to litter in our fine tubes.

Reply Score: 4

sithgunner Member since:
2006-02-16

Lets see, everything on public web server sounds like already public, but then again, if it was such personal opinions, why did they have to post this anyway? He could've kept it in his blog, and prolly just post a paragraph or 2 in here which mattered to many people who would expect to read something useful in here.

It's just so many people nowadays just group things up together that many things are unpreventable, but there goes, even in public space, you can choose what to put where.

Reply Score: 1

Get a Life Member since:
2006-01-01

You can consider OSNews to be a collective blog for the editorial staff that features current events. What do you think this is, a technical journal? He posts editorials basically every week, between posting links to opinion-driven pieces, news items, and rumors. He put it here because he wanted to. Get off of Thom already. You don't have to agree with his opinions. All people do is complain about the staff. Look at the comments to this site. Most of them are just people sharing opinions. You don't have to post your opinions here, but you seem quite willing to do so.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Boring...
by Wemgadge on Sun 16th Jul 2006 17:08 UTC
Wemgadge
Member since:
2005-07-02

I wish we could moderate (funny) like on slashdot!

Reply Score: 1

g4 Tower
by kadymae on Sun 16th Jul 2006 17:18 UTC
kadymae
Member since:
2005-08-02

Speaking from experience, I highly reccomend the dual proc models. There is a slight premium in price, but oh so worth it.

Reply Score: 1

Thom's point
by DigitalAxis on Sun 16th Jul 2006 18:38 UTC
DigitalAxis
Member since:
2005-08-28

With all due respect to most of you, I interpreted Thom's column to say that he has a Powerbook, he likes his Powerbook, and he doesn't want to shell out more money for what may be a step downward in reliability. I'm not sure it was so much Apple bashing as it was a complaint that Apple used to have great hardware and great software, but the competition is quickly catching up on both fronts.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Enjoy my MBP
by MordEth on Sun 16th Jul 2006 19:37 UTC
MordEth
Member since:
2006-07-16

netpython:

I build my own PC's from quality components. My AMD64 based desktop now runs more than 3 years without *any* problem.

Right. This is always an option, for people with the skills to do so. Unfortunately, most of the people I know that are looking to buy a new computer are completely clueless and do not have the skills to put a computer together, let alone know what parts they would need to buy, etc.

Out of curiousity, what OS(es) are you running?

Depends on how much money they are prepared to spend. Apple hardware isn't the best you can get. Everybody with some screwdrivers and pliers and the right mind-set can make a PC, from student-PC to a high-end system. The sky is the limit.

Again, I agree with you completely. The thing that I see most, though, are people who have no clue how to use Windows securely, how to keep it virus and spyware free. They don't know how to take care of/maintain their computer, and so they have hardware or software failures, they end up going to some retail chain with a lot of clueless employees, and they get charged more than their computer is worth for someone to do something like format the drive and reinstall Windows.

I know someone who paid Best Buy $200-300 for this "service". Ironically, he thought it was going to be covered by his warranty when he took it in to be serviced.

To be honest, though, most of what makes me choose Mac is the OS, not just the hardware. And I think that for someone who really doesn't know how to use a computer, it's easier than Windows. Despite my efforts, the majority of the people I know are still relatively clueless when it comes to computers, although they're slowly improving.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Enjoy my MBP
by netpython on Sun 16th Jul 2006 20:38 UTC in reply to "RE: Enjoy my MBP"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

Out of curiousity, what OS(es) are you running?

unix and windows.

To be honest, though, most of what makes me choose Mac is the OS, *not just the hardware.*

Healthy point of view:-)

Reply Score: 1

MordEth
Member since:
2006-07-16

for some reason, my last post did not actually reply to http://www.osnews.com/permalink.php?news_id=15202&comment_id=143555

Sorry.

OT: Someone may want to take a this, since it should have been a reply to the message (above) on which I clicked "Reply". Thanks.

Reply Score: 1

10 year MacOS veteran
by yakirz on Sun 16th Jul 2006 19:45 UTC
yakirz
Member since:
2006-05-11

and I'm very happy I made the switch, by buying a used Powerbook 520c in 1996 (and trading in a pitiful 486/66 for it).

I agree that the MacBook is close to perfect. I'm still using a G3 iBook, but I'm planning to buy a MacBook eventually. It runs (natively) OS X, Windows, Linux, BSD, and anything else you throw at it. I like the glossy screen, and have found the "chiclet" keyboard easier to type on than the iBook's.

I wish Apple would get their shit together regarding service, reliability, etc. And yes, Linux is usable, can be enjoyable, and I do run it on occasion. But it's not at the level of OS X as far as "it just works" goes.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Would someone ...
by tyrione on Sun 16th Jul 2006 22:20 UTC
tyrione
Member since:
2005-11-21

$man adduser

Reply Score: 1

v Bravo
by Bringbackanonposting on Sun 16th Jul 2006 23:24 UTC
iphoto
by yaksox on Mon 17th Jul 2006 00:33 UTC
yaksox
Member since:
2006-07-17

Hi,
I just wanted to agree with what you were saying about iphoto - from when I was using it a year ago I found it really illogical the way they put photos from one day in a seperate folder and then there are even folders created that have no photos in them at all.

Reply Score: 1

Why I did buy an Intel Mac
by skingers6894 on Mon 17th Jul 2006 01:07 UTC
skingers6894
Member since:
2005-08-10

I like OSX and I like it fast.

Thanks.

Reply Score: 1

Waste of time
by i386 on Mon 17th Jul 2006 01:25 UTC
i386
Member since:
2006-07-11

This kind of article was just a whinge. I want my 5 mins back.

Reply Score: 1

My experience
by GinoRotormind on Mon 17th Jul 2006 03:33 UTC
GinoRotormind
Member since:
2006-07-17

I have read a lot of comments in this thread doubting the existance of apple machines that have issues (as though their machines are always perfect). I must say this frustrated me as I am one of the sufferers of such a machine. I have a 15" G4 Powerbook. It has had:
* 1 new screen
* 2 new mainboards
* 4 new hard drives
and is currently in an apple service centre getting a new keyboard installed. Furthermore, I had the machine in a service centre for three weeks attempting to upgrade the RAM. They could not find a single stick that would work stably (without a kernel panic on boot) including apple branded stuff. This revision also has a lifetime warranty on the screens because they are known to develop white spots and the batteries also have lifetime replacement policy because these too are known to be faulty.

Although I do not doubt that in general apple machines (just as dells, hps etc) are reliable beasts I can assure you from personal experience that they are not 100% perfect and there are machines that have problems.

Given this machines history I requested a replacement. But because these issues have occured throughout the extended warranty period (3 years given I paid the additional $600 AUS) and I have only 70 days remaining they refused outright to replace it. All I can say is that I will not purchase another apple product in the forseeable future (including iPods etc).

I am just sorry my first ever post is so long and a real whinge. I guess I figured this was a good place to vent my frustration given all you other people lucky enough to have apple machines that work as advertised.

- GinoRotormind

Reply Score: 2

RE: My experience
by kaiwai on Mon 17th Jul 2006 08:50 UTC in reply to "My experience"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Christ, you must be incredibly rough with your machine to require that many replacements; I don't blame Apple for refusing to replace something given the lack of care on your part to ensure that you're not breaking things.

The fact that millions are sold each quarter, without huge numbers complaining about faults goes to show that the small number who do experience faults can be placed into three groups; first group are those who do have genuine issues and acknowledged by Apple, the second group are the hypochondriacs who have never had an issue, but have suddenly 'realised' that their computer is whining, then there are the third group who have continuous hardware replacements due to rough handling.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: My experience
by GinoRotormind on Tue 18th Jul 2006 02:29 UTC in reply to "RE: My experience"
GinoRotormind Member since:
2006-07-17

Why would you assume I do not take good care of my machine? Just because I have had hardware difficulties? I stated that no doubt a majority of apple machines are fine. Just that mine has had issues. Do you think the apple service centre would honour the waranty if I blantantly mistreated the machine? Do you think that they would agree with me that I deserve a replacement (but because they are not an apple branded store, just a certified apple service centre, apple will not listen to their recommendation) if I had done something clearly wrong? How has my mishandling of the machine prevented them from locating RAM that does not cause a kernel panic on boot?

You acknowledge that there are three groups, why assume I have not had "genuine" issues? Defend apple if it makes you more comfortable in your choice to purchase your machines from them but do not assume that it is my fault that their machine has been nothing but a nightmare for me.

FYI I am a PhD student in Artificial Intelligence and have a working C64 (20 years old approx) and a 12 year old 486. I think I have a reasonable concept of what constitutes rough handling of a computer.

- GinoRotormind

Reply Score: 1

Business isn't altruistic
by Khoji on Mon 17th Jul 2006 09:33 UTC
Khoji
Member since:
2005-08-17

Thom,

Large companies are not altruistic. Apple may have a better approach to software and OS design than Microsoft but that doesn't make them white knights in shining armor. If you expect that you will always be disappointed. No company of that size can afford to be. The "customers" of any large company are the stockholders, not the end users. Those are the people they have to make happy. Making the end users happy may be necessary for that, but the stockholders are way more important.

This means they must give their end users as little as humanly possible, at the lowest possible input price, whilst still keeping them happy. They will play around with this algorithm trying to hit the sweet spot, and currently Apple may be overreaching themselves a little, but they will always try to deliver the minimum for the maximum return. This is a fact of life for all publicly-traded companies -- even if the people in charge of the companies might have other ideals themselves.

Only small independent firms and open source developers can afford to be really altruistic in business, and even there there are limits. Animals also get killed in Nature, the world isn't a fluffy and cuddly place. Get used to it.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Business isn't altruistic
by netpython on Mon 17th Jul 2006 13:20 UTC in reply to "Business isn't altruistic"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

Animals also get killed in Nature, the world isn't a fluffy and cuddly place.

I'm afraid you're right about that.

Get used to it.

You must be either a republican or a nihilist.If we get used to much to all what is perverse around us the change is our customs and values our ancestors fought for will disapear.Although i'm quite pragmatic and a realist i just refuse to get used to injustice.It is very good to let people know what's really going on.

Edited 2006-07-17 13:22

Reply Score: 1

RE: Business isn't altruistic
by Nedi on Tue 18th Jul 2006 13:29 UTC in reply to "Business isn't altruistic"
Nedi Member since:
2006-02-09

Animals also get killed in Nature, the world isn't a fluffy and cuddly place.

And you're going to see that it remains that way!

Get used to it.

Of course - so you can go on sleeping, believing your ideology to be scientific fact.

Idiot.

The rest of your comment is quite to the point - only error is your implicit assumption that it is some law of nature.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Boring...
by wirespot on Mon 17th Jul 2006 11:20 UTC
wirespot
Member since:
2006-06-21

Companies buy computers with operating systems to run applications to get their work done; they want the same applications that they've always used, and sorry, the only alternative for them right now is running Vista, and if they're a little experimental in their computer fetish, they might give MacOS X a roll.

First of all, they're not going to run Photoshop or Quicken on all the computers in the company. They usually run specialized applications on a very small number of their desktops. Which means that, if absolutely needed, the average company can very well have Linux desktops everywhere with just the odd computer or two running Windows.

Second, I don't see how Vista is "the only alternative", as an OS which for the moment is still half vaporware. Perhaps you meant Windows XP.

Third, Windows emulators such as Wine have evolved greatly in the meantime. Today you can run Internet Explorer or MS Office or Photoshop without a problem on a Linux box, and there are companies who offer support for it (CodeWeavers). Incidentally, SuSE offers A LOT of commercial application support, as you can see here:
http://www.novell.com/partnerguide/section/676.html

Linux isn't up the game yet, there aren't the application vendors, there isn't the hardware support, and most importantly of all, there isn't the same level of ease of use which comes with Windows Vista and MacOS X.

I'm afraid this is plain FUD, and anybody who ever bothered to try a recent SuSE or Ubuntu distribution can see that it is simply not true.

Reply Score: 1

High Apple Failure Rate and Poor Support
by asiafish on Mon 17th Jul 2006 14:20 UTC
asiafish
Member since:
2006-05-11

These complaints aren't new, but they aren't completely true either. Yes, the new MacBook and MacBook Pro models have/had issues, but to say that Apple isn't addressing them is total bullshit. MacBook Pro owners who send in their systems with complaints of heat or noise get them back with a brand-new logic board revision that has these problems solved.

My MacBook (one of the first batch) is sitting at Apple right now waiting on a new logic board, which also will be a newer version than what it originally came with.

Batteries have been replaced, porous plastic palmrests redesigned and replaced, seems to me Apple is being EXTREMELY responsive to customer complaints on what are essentially brand-new models.

Apple had 4 years to get the aluminum PowerBooks right, 5 years for the iBook. That they've solved so many of the MacBook and MacBook Pro issues so quickly gives me renewed confidence in the company.

Reply Score: 1

They could have pushed...
by fithisux on Mon 17th Jul 2006 17:47 UTC
fithisux
Member since:
2006-01-22

opendarwin on Intel desktops (not necessarily manufactured by Apple) and create a community based distro like fedora/opensuse, and get money. They decided to close their kernel, and stay on Apple OSX though gnu-darwin / open-darwin were moving at high speed. I cannot understand them. They could have produced cheap Celeron D darwin computers with the above distros to statisfy the low budget user. I cannot understand why such a plan is not possible. The existence of Darbat suggests there is ineterst in OSS Apple and they could supply the machines. A win-win situation, cheap advertisement/HW sales. What are they thinking? Maybe I should stay away from them.

Reply Score: 1

hardware Quality
by pecosbill on Sun 23rd Jul 2006 22:24 UTC
pecosbill
Member since:
2005-11-23

Apple's hardware quality seemed to start its decline when they outsourced it to China. They also have more recently started updating hardware at break-neck speed which has definitely reduced quality.

That being said, my MacBook (week 19) has been flawless. (I did have to reset power managment (PMU and pref file) only after updating to 10.4.7. Between the update and the reset, the Mac was noticeably hot where it used to only be warm).

Reply Score: 1