Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 18th Jul 2006 22:51 UTC, submitted by Raffaele
Amiga & AROS "In a previous item, we described how the AmigaOS4.0 memory system works in terms of managing memory allocations from the top. However, there is more to allocating memory than that. The object caches of course work on memory that has already been mapped into the virtual memory space. But both the virtual address ranges, as well as the physical memory has to come from a source, too."
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Great! (so far)
by StychoKiller on Wed 19th Jul 2006 02:19 UTC
StychoKiller
Member since:
2005-09-20

This is all well and good to know, but I wish that
Hyperion would spend ALL of their time on getting OS4.0
finished!
Jim Steichen, Author of AmigaTalk

Reply Score: 3

Thumbs up! to the OS4 developement team
by Mike Bouma on Wed 19th Jul 2006 06:35 UTC
Mike Bouma
Member since:
2005-07-06

I believe the article is informative mainly for (ex)AmigaOS users in detailing how AmigaOS4 tries to become on par with other operating systems in some areas lagged behind areas. The mentioned speed improvements are interesting, but really need to be personally experienced.

For most people outside the Amiga community I think it's more interesting to read about the ways AmigaOS4 distinguishes itself from most other solutions out there, such as for example its screens feature, which usability has been greatly expanded with multi-directional screen dragging and drag&drop functionality since OS3.x.

Some 20 more unique or nicely implementationed features mentioned on the portal:
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.com/index.php?option=content&task...

Edited 2006-07-19 06:40

Reply Score: 3

More waffle
by nicholas on Wed 19th Jul 2006 08:57 UTC
nicholas
Member since:
2005-07-07

OS4 has some nice features which is all well and good, but if we can't buy it what is the point?

Edited 2006-07-19 08:57

Reply Score: 2

RE: More waffle
by DevL on Wed 19th Jul 2006 09:16 UTC in reply to "More waffle"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

Well, it's a) not finished, b) only bundled with hardware, and c) no new hardware has been made for quite some time.

Essentially, OS4 is held back from general consumption until new hardware (if ever) is produced. Sad but true.

I recently saw something about a small batch of refurbished/repaired Mini-ITX AmigaOne motherboards being pushed out to retailers, but as always in Amigaland, anything said should be taken with a huge amount of salt.

IMNSHO OS4 is a promising OS held back by the fact that it targets the PowerPC CPU and due the huge amount of bickering and mud slung around the Amiga community.

Reply Score: 1

RE: More waffle
by trezzer on Wed 19th Jul 2006 11:39 UTC in reply to "More waffle"
trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

Yesterday I talked to Justin from Amigaone.biz, and he said he had several ľA1 MK2s lying around. So if you want it badly, you can get it. The MK2 has some flaws that were corrected in ľA1-c though (it was a pre-production model).

Reply Score: 2

AmigaOS
by agentj on Wed 19th Jul 2006 09:15 UTC
agentj
Member since:
2005-08-19

I wish there was AmigaOS port for x86 ;) I know about AROS, but it's not fully stable yet. Unfortunately I've never had a chance to use real Amiga ;) , but I tried UAE.
When I have money, I'll try to buy one (PPC based).

Reply Score: 1

Re: More waffle
by Mike Bouma on Wed 19th Jul 2006 09:32 UTC
Mike Bouma
Member since:
2005-07-06

@ nicholas

> but if we can't buy it what is the point?

Well, there are already people who do use AmigaOS4.0 on a daily basis as can be judged also from the increasing activity at the OS4 focussed AmigaWorld.net community portal. For instance in June of this year the website served almost 2.5 million pages, more than double the amount as compared to a year ago. For most of such more or less interested individuals and users all OS4 advancements are welcomed.

Also some more AmigaOS4 bundled Mini-ITX mainboards are about to arrive at Amiga dealers worldwide.

And finally AmigaOS4.0 final will be available for the classics as well, which is already being beta-tested by many people within the Amiga community and there are several new hardware products under development.

As to create an analogy. You might not be able to buy a PS3 or other still under development products/operating systems currently, but the advancements do have a "point" and is of interest to many people.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Re: More waffle
by nicholas on Wed 19th Jul 2006 09:54 UTC in reply to "Re: More waffle"
nicholas Member since:
2005-07-07

I think you may have misunderstood my statement.

I should have written "If we can't buy it, what is the point of OS4?"

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Re: More waffle
by Mike Bouma on Wed 19th Jul 2006 10:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Re: More waffle"
Mike Bouma Member since:
2005-07-06

@ nicholas

And my point was that you will be able to buy AmigaOS4 equipped hardware if you desperately want to and don't live in poverty. Even if there would be a very unlikely doomsday scenario and everything would go wrong, with the dozens of AmigaOS4 supporting companies bankrupting, we will likely see an increase of currently almost non-available second hand models (now if one is rarely available, it's gone in the wink of an eye). ;-)

Reply Score: 1

I'm tired of the PPC argument
by wonea on Wed 19th Jul 2006 11:29 UTC
wonea
Member since:
2005-10-28

Yes, PPC was a great processor for it's time, and yes if there is ever a chance of AOS4 being profitable it should be ported to x86.

But the facts are, it's never gonna happen quickly. I expect a release date of about 2008/9 with a few pinches of hope along the way.

Shame really, because AOS4 is Gorgeous!

We may get people building Amigaone's on a small scale. But unless they can turn in a profit, then the incentive goes with it.

Genesi seems to be the only company, capable of profitably building desktop ppc machines these days.

Also IBM's roadmap for PPC desktop chips should be taken into account. It's encouraging that the next generation of consoles all use their chips. Can the Amiga benefit from this? Or is the amount of money involved too high in integrating such technology? Would it be cheaper just move everything to x86. I think so, you'd certainly get more performance for the money.

Reply Score: 1

I'm tired of the PPC argument
by Mike Bouma on Wed 19th Jul 2006 12:12 UTC
Mike Bouma
Member since:
2005-07-06

@ wonea

> But the facts are, it's never gonna happen quickly.

You're right about that. With PPC processors it is easier to optimize time/response critical parts of the OS and software. For the best optimization results you usually must be a capable developer to tell the processor what to do through a low-level assembly language. This and of course the fact that PPC upgrades have been created for the classic Amigas (AmigaOS4 can run previously developed PPC software transparently, which would not been this 'easy' if they would have gone towards the x86 family of processors) by 3rd parties is an important reason why the PPC family of processors is currently being used.

The OS4 team under the management of Hyperion has some very competent developers, who are also very competent in using the PPC assembly language. Assembly has thus been used to optimise some parts of the kernel and the transparent 68k processor emulator. This is one of many different reasons why AmigaOS4 is so fast (also at using 68k software developed for classic systems), but an x86 port would also take more time and effort. The developers aren't very fond of the x86 architecture.

> Also IBM's roadmap for PPC desktop chips should be
> taken into account. It's encouraging that the next
> generation of consoles all use their chips.

Please note that the Cell processor (with a PPC compatible core), which will power the upcoming PS3 first, will not only be used for powering game consoles (also the PS3 will be able to do many more things you would usually only expect from a fully fledged homecomputer), but everything ranging from next generation Toshiba high definition television sets, IBM workstations / servers and eventually probably even mobile devices!

Reply Score: 1

An OS still evolving
by Raffaele on Wed 19th Jul 2006 12:16 UTC
Raffaele
Member since:
2005-11-12

I wonder why the discussion always changes to availabity of AmigaONEs instead of focusing on the advancements of the OS.

This is the topic. Not AmigaONe and not PPC.

Sure these are great news that this OS it is still evolving and new and improved features are added continuously or previous ones are modified dramatically to became modern and efficient.

Edited 2006-07-19 12:19

Reply Score: 4

RE: An OS still evolving
by DevL on Wed 19th Jul 2006 12:30 UTC in reply to "An OS still evolving"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

The OS is PPC-only and moreover requires hardware that is not available for general consumption. No, scratch that, hardware that's not available other than second hand.

Since you can't try out OS4 other than using aforementioned hardware, it's quite understandable that and discussion regarding OS4 will include the status and (non-)availability of OS4-enabled hardware.

An OS/tool can evolve to great heights, but if you can't obtain and use it, what good is it (besides the purely academic value it and its design may or may not have)?

Edited 2006-07-19 12:31

Reply Score: 5

AOS4??
by gdanko on Wed 19th Jul 2006 12:35 UTC
gdanko
Member since:
2005-07-15

Any new Amigas should not use crap PC cases. Someone should design something slick like the old Amigas and Apples. Generic PCs are bland the Amiga should be distinguished from vanilla PCs. And simply adding neon or alien faces in the front doesn't distinguish you computer, it makes the thing look silly.

Reply Score: 1

RE: AOS4??
by Ronald Vos on Wed 19th Jul 2006 20:43 UTC in reply to "AOS4??"
Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

Any new Amigas should not use crap PC cases. Someone should design something slick like the old Amigas and Apples.

Eh? I wouldn't call the old Amiga's particularly slick.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: AOS4??
by Kroc on Wed 19th Jul 2006 22:35 UTC in reply to "RE: AOS4??"
Kroc Member since:
2005-11-10

Very slick in the late 80's / early 90's. The previous-gen Commodore 64 was even re-styled to make it look more with the times. The Acorn Archimedes even nabbed the look too.

I am with the OP though. New amigas should be like the A9/Home machines, or Mac Minis. Great hulking ATXs are just not worth it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: AOS4??
by gdanko on Fri 21st Jul 2006 03:34 UTC in reply to "RE: AOS4??"
gdanko Member since:
2005-07-15

Maybe you're a fan of neon and alien faces on your computer case?

Reply Score: 1

RE: AOS4??
by anarchic_teapot on Thu 20th Jul 2006 07:17 UTC in reply to "AOS4??"
anarchic_teapot Member since:
2006-01-22

qoute: "Any new Amigas should not use crap PC cases. Someone should design something slick like the old Amigas and Apples"

Feel free, son. I assume you've already got the money and the potential market.

As for the rest of the remarks:
The arguments about AmigaOS4 "not having any hardware to run on" are a bit pointless, given that HYperion Entertainment aren't daft enough to go for a purely private, hobbyist market and are fully prepared to port the OS to non-AmigaOne hardware. See their website. The "PowerPC is dead" argument is ridiculous too: what do you think the Airbus is stuffed full of? And what do game consoles use?

There's a market alright, we just have to come to terms with the fact that if new AmigaOne (or assimilated) hardware isn't forthcoming, that market doesn't include us. I believe some people are actually doing something about that instead of whining.

Reply Score: 2

Will it ever arrive?
by Bit_Rapist on Wed 19th Jul 2006 13:41 UTC
Bit_Rapist
Member since:
2005-11-13

I'm an old school amiga fan but at this point AOS4 feels like bigger vaporware than Windows Vista.

I guess at some point it will ship or they'll rename it copland. ;)

Reply Score: 3

RE: Will it ever arrive?
by erebos on Wed 19th Jul 2006 14:33 UTC in reply to "Will it ever arrive?"
erebos Member since:
2006-02-09

Sorry but it's no vapor, some happy few can already run it.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Will it ever arrive?
by Bit_Rapist on Wed 19th Jul 2006 19:33 UTC in reply to "RE: Will it ever arrive?"
Bit_Rapist Member since:
2005-11-13

Sorry but it's no vapor, some happy few can already run it.

The same with Windows Vista and yet I see it labeled as "vaporware" quite often on these forums.

I'd love to see the AmigaOS and heck Amiga itself make a comeback but I gave up on that years ago. I parted with my Amiga hardware and moved on. It was a great computer in its time and I'll always give it that but I think in this day and age its dead. There just seems to be a few people who don't know it yet. *shrugs*

Reply Score: 1

RE: Will it ever arrive?
by Raffaele on Wed 19th Jul 2006 19:39 UTC in reply to "Will it ever arrive?"
Raffaele Member since:
2005-11-12

@ Bit_Rapist

>>>
I'm an old school amiga fan but at this point AOS4 feels like bigger vaporware than Windows Vista.

I guess at some point it will ship or they'll rename it copland. ;)
>>>

Well, AmigaOS is available for those who bought the hardware when it was in shops.

No vaporware at all, just available only for those who purchased the hardware when available.

If you hadn't been so strong Amiga fan ("old school" means only you are simply a nostalgic) with enough guts to bought an AmigaONE when it was in shops then you have no excuses for you are not in the number of eliteists.

Sorry pal.

P.S. Better luck when new middle cost Amiga hardware motherboards will be available from Poland (PowerVixxen) and Italy (simply low cost hardware project).

Try it again.

Edited 2006-07-19 19:43

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Will it ever arrive?
by trezzer on Thu 20th Jul 2006 11:35 UTC in reply to "RE: Will it ever arrive?"
trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

You seem to be confusing projects, Raffaele.

PowerVixxen is a Canadian project. Maybe you're thinking of the elusive Polish Shark project from Elbox.

Besides that an elitist attitude never helped any platform gain new users or raise interest in it.

Reply Score: 2

But...
by gdanko on Wed 19th Jul 2006 16:01 UTC
gdanko
Member since:
2005-07-15

Part of what made Amiga special is irrelevant now.. custom hardware. There was a time when Amiga had a hardware edge but those days are gone. If they can hone the OS and make some nice looking cases with the Amiga logo (versus an Amiga sticker on a beige PC case) then the Amiga will be special again.

Reply Score: 2

great OS without hardware
by ScannerAssy on Wed 19th Jul 2006 16:34 UTC
ScannerAssy
Member since:
2006-07-19

AmigaOS 4 is great but there is a big problem with it

I think they made a bad choice with the ppc. Except a few fans, who will buy another (slow) computer just to run AmigaOS4 ?? And even with this huge aminet library, it still plain old software. For me like for many others, OS4 is & will be irrelevant without an X86 port.

Reply Score: 3

Re: great OS without hardware
by trezzer on Wed 19th Jul 2006 16:47 UTC
trezzer
Member since:
2006-01-05

It has been rehashed time and time again within the Amiga community - and of course you're excused for not knowing about it. But it's really quite simple: It won't happen. At least not in the foreseeable future.

The OS is big endian and it would take a lot of work to convert everything to little endian. Besides that the markets that are alluring for the development team (embedded) tends to favour PPC chips, so it makes sense to have a PPC development platform. It's probably more realistic to aim at businesses with specific needs and sell them what they need rather than try to recapture the desktop market, which has high expectations for what a desktop OS needs today. Sure, AmigaOS 4 lives up to a lot of it and in some areas it still offers features sadly lacking in other systems. But these days you're supposed to deliver a system that plays dvds, shows flash, has java, has a full office suite etc out of the box.

There are probably a lot of users that will be happy with less, but most won't. One of the strengths of AmigaOS 4 is the low footprint, efficiency and relative elegance. That makes it an interesting product for embedded markets (even though some will go with Linux, QNX or other solutions). It's also a great hobbyist computer and it'll also do most of your tasks like some word processing, DTP, graphics, mail, chatting and so on. But it's not for the mainstream market yet. Not even close - as much as I love it (heck, typing from OS4 right now).

I don't really agree with the usual argument that by moving to x86, you're effectively going up against Windows, because you already are. But the advantages of being PPC - and not least the economic realities of OS4 development - mean that it's not going to a different CPU family than PPC any time soon. What we can hope for, though, is some cheap hardware for people that want to try it out. It's not impossible - it just hasn't happened yet.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Re: great OS without hardware
by ScannerAssy on Wed 19th Jul 2006 19:07 UTC in reply to "Re: great OS without hardware"
ScannerAssy Member since:
2006-07-19

well, you have some valids arguments, 've not said it's easy to do. OS4 certainly have some great value for people like you, but I prefer to support an OS I can try like Haiku.

btw, OS4 is targeting desktop computing, I don't think it is well suited for embedded systems.

Regards,
SA

Reply Score: 1

trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

Yes, it is also targeting desktop computing, but that is not what will bring the bread and butter for the developers.
I think the closest to desktop computing we will see in the immediate future besides hobbyists is minimalistic terminals with clients for remote access - for instance there is an excellent RDesktop port for OS4.

But what percentages can be won from desktop adoption in the short run will hardly pay for continued development. Finding OEMs that are interested in solutions like this and selling components where it makes sense (such as the licensing of 3D driver technology which was done in March this year) is most likely what will keep development going, till the OS reaches a level where it can comfortably accomodate the average computer user.

(update: fixed typo)

Edited 2006-07-19 19:18

Reply Score: 2

falemagn Member since:
2005-07-06

> btw, OS4 is targeting desktop computing, I don't think
> it is well suited for embedded systems.

Not according to who's making the OS: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&to...

I quote: "Contrary to x86, PowerPC are being used in embedded applications. We do have a PDA running AmigaOS to begin with (unfortunately I don't think I am allowed to show the video I recorded), and there are concrete plans (which I surely cannot comment on).".

As for the availability of AOS4 to the masses, here's another relevant quote from one of the guys who's making the OS: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&to...

"There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics. Name me a few good reasons why a MacOS or Windows user should use AmigaOS, regardless of the hardware platform? I'm sorry, but I am not arrogant enough to think that AmigaOS (or any clone, for the matter) could go against any mainstream OS. It's an OS for Amiga hobbyists, and it will take a long time and a lot of work to get it to any other state. So, pray, how would you like to attract masses of new users outside the Amiga market?"

Looks like there's no much hope for a widespread adoption of AOS4, by the very own words of who's making the OS.

Reply Score: 2

Raffaele Member since:
2005-11-12

@ falemagn

>>>
As for the availability of AOS4 to the masses, here's another relevant quote from one of the guys who's making the OS: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&am.....

"There are no customers outside the grounp of Amiga-fanatics. Name me a few good reasons why a MacOS or Windows user should use AmigaOS, regardless of the hardware platform? I'm sorry, but I am not arrogant enough to think that AmigaOS (or any clone, for the matter) could go against any mainstream OS. It's an OS for Amiga hobbyists, and it will take a long time and a lot of work to get it to any other state. So, pray, how would you like to attract masses of new users outside the Amiga market?"

Looks like there's no much hope for a widespread adoption of AOS4, by the very own words of who's making the OS.
>>>

Well Fabio, we discussed it many times.

AmigaOS could be widespread adopted because:

1) Amiga doesn't spies the user as Windows does.

(Windows reports even ANY MP3 you are playing to a Microsoft site just built to collect data of music listen by users worldwide and to provide statistic of usage for advertising campaigns by big media majors.)

2) Amiga doesn't require a degree in information tech to be mastered in its deep as Linux requires.

(You learn to use Amiga within days, and in a month or two you can master it all).

3) Amiga does not keeps the user as a person forever immature who needs to be kept always protected as in a WWF sanctuary as MacOS X uses to do with its users.

Apple even discourages users to explore the underneath power of Darwin/FreeBSD OS which stays hidden by common Mac interface considered as the only safe place of the entire OS.

(Users are even warned to stay away from online terminal shells.

Only brave users and those who are experienced with Unix/Linux try something more complicated than using only Mac Aqua interface.)

So in Apple the users will be kept always as babes closed in a babycage.

And remember this final thoughts:

There is none preventing Amiga to became widespread adopted if the OS could be sold on markets bundled with cheap powerful hardware and presented to public by a good campaign of advertising on TV, newpapers and internet media.

Reply Score: 2

trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

I'm sorry Raffaele, but it's hard to agree with your harsh generalizations and fake truisms.

I doubt anyone would truly master AmigaOS in months, but yes, it doesn't take long to grasp the concept and after a short while you could indeed probably do a file-by-file install manually of the entire OS.

Do I think more people could enjoy AmigaOS as it is? Certainly.
Do I think the average joe would be happy with AmigaOS as it is now? No. A lot of work is still required.

The Amiga's biggest problem right now if it wants to capture a mass market - contrary to popular belief - is the software. There's too many essential pieces missing and while Windows may be at a relative stand-still, OS X is a forever moving target that currently seems impossible to catch.

Oh, and I don't know where you got the idea that Apple tries to discourage users from the *nix-side of the OS. All the tools are right there from the start and they happily advertise the *nix underpinnings of the OS.

Reply Score: 1

Raffaele Member since:
2005-11-12

The announcement on OSNews is generic and it is aimed for those who care.

I don't understand why people like you who are not interested in Amiga come and make silly statements about AmigaOS.

You love haiku, you said you can try Haiku on your platform? Then use it.

But if you are curious and if you want to look to something similar to AmigaOS 4.0 on your X86 platform then try AROS.

http://www.aros.org

Here the latest live CD distro named AROSMAX (no need of installing it, boot the CD and run it) is here:

http://www.aros-max.co.uk/stable/arosmax048.rar

Advices:

1) AROS it is an implementation of AmigaOS 3.1. It has not all advanced features of AOS 4.0

2) AROS it is still in development and lacks of many things and lacks of many software. Just try it AS IS...

It is a very simple experiencing, but if it will enlighten you it could show you how beautyful it is a small footprint OS, with very lower resource consumption, and with a few system directories with all things in their place.
No complicated as Linux, no messy as Windows.

Edited 2006-07-19 19:32

Reply Score: 1

x86?
by gdanko on Wed 19th Jul 2006 17:07 UTC
gdanko
Member since:
2005-07-15

The OS is so small, what you may consider a slow CPU is blindingly fast for Amigas tasks. OS X and Windows especially are bloated beyond all reason, and this is coming from a Mac user. AmigaOS has a tiny footprint and little to no overhead so it doesn't necessarily NEED a uber powerful processor.

Reply Score: 3

RE: x86?
by ronaldst on Wed 19th Jul 2006 17:51 UTC in reply to "x86?"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

But what happens when an amigan want to deal with "uber" CPU intensive tasks? Shut off the Amiga and boots up Windows?

How long till Amigans stop their obsession with the line of obsolete mostly-decade-old CPUs (G3-G5s)?

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: x86?
by jush on Wed 19th Jul 2006 18:40 UTC in reply to "RE: x86?"
jush Member since:
2006-07-18

--quote--
But what happens when an amigan want to deal with "uber" CPU intensive tasks? Shut off the Amiga and boots up Windows?
--quote--

Buy a PC and do the taks there. What's the big deal ?

Edited 2006-07-19 18:41

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: x86?
by gdanko on Thu 20th Jul 2006 20:19 UTC in reply to "RE: x86?"
gdanko Member since:
2005-07-15

I would hardly call the Pentium 4 modern.

Reply Score: 2

RE: x86?
by DevL on Thu 20th Jul 2006 10:33 UTC in reply to "x86?"
DevL Member since:
2005-07-06

It's not about performance, it's about availability.

If OS4 would target say, VIAs Mini-ITX motherboards there wouldn't be a problem obtaining hardware nor would the OS4-devs have to support a myriad of hardware which is a commen misconception/argument against targetting an x86-architecture.

Reply Score: 1

No memory protection in year 2006...
by agnus on Wed 19th Jul 2006 17:45 UTC
agnus
Member since:
2006-05-10

A hint for everybody who might think now that AmigaOS 4 has a modern memory system.

AmigaOS 4 does not (and will not) have Memory Protection. It is one of the things that "just won't happen" (like being released for available affordable non-obsolet hardware).

Reply Score: 2

jush Member since:
2006-07-18

See, and that is not (entirely) true. While it is true for existing applications, the new kernel takes precautions already towards that goal. It will not work immediately because it simply would break all existing code.

However, AmigaOS4 marks executeable memory as "read only", which simply does not allow a broken application to trash code in the system. While this is not real memory protection, it is certainly a step into a more robust system.

Also, crahses are now cought thru a system level debugger, the "GrimReaper", which, in case you have an SDK installed, lets you attach the crashed app to gdb and debug it there.

Further more, the new exec kernel provides already APIs in respect for future memory protection (and SMP support). e.g. AllocSysObject() is a new way of allocating system resources instead of using malloc( struct foo); You can expect applications written with this in mind to work fine if/when mem protection (and resource tracking) will become available.

More then that, the whole process/task modell has been revamped to support threads now (child tasks) as well as this handling is now mature (while I would consider this broken in anything other version before 4).

While going ppc might look like a mistake in the first place, it is also clear, going x86 would position the OS in direct competition to other OSs on that said platform. I think, OS4 can even function as a rebirth of the ppc. Thru it's license scheme it allows clone builders to build open hardware, and thus would encourage competition. However, we are in a chicken-and-egg situation, but even that problem got solved sometimes back in the past by someone ;)

Reply Score: 4

Development tools
by jush on Wed 19th Jul 2006 18:39 UTC
jush
Member since:
2006-07-18

One more thing which is very interessting for OS4, is the availability of the development tools. True is, that one needs to get an AmigaOS4 SDK to get access to all structures and header files and documentation etc.

But the SDK includes and up to date gcc (version 4) and other tools out of the gnu tool chain. Further more, these tools are not only available for the target AmigaOS, but also in form of cross tools. The supported host platforms are Win(XP)/cygwin, MacOSX, Linux (ppc and x86) and Sun's OS (AFAIK).

It is e.g. easy to integrate them into Eclipse (up to 3.2, which supports managed make thru the AmigaDT/CDT plugin) on every platform Eclipse runs on.

It might require a machine to test the code, but it does not require one to write it.

Edited 2006-07-19 18:43

Reply Score: 4

SamuraiCrow
Member since:
2005-11-19

I have a MicroA1-c and don't use it very often. It's broken and waiting for a new G4 processor since the G3 doesn't support the type of optimizations in the software I want to write.

All of this gibberish about switching to the x86 is irrelevent to the Amiga market becuase Zeta has already come out for the x86 and still needs software and developers. Switching to the latest fad in microprocessors will not change the fact that Amiga is a hobby system at this point.

I develop software using SDL so it will work on any platform I want to run it on. BeOS support is available for SDL applications as is even MorphOS. I hope that someday efficient operating systems become mainstream once again so that my software will outshine the others stuck in the past with their backward compatibility dating to the 1980s and the x86 archetecture. Maybe it will be little-endian systems like Zeta but I suspect that x86-64 will make the old x86 software seem irrelevent.

I, for one, hope that a bytecode comes out that will let software run on any processor and am looking toward http://llvm.org to make that difference. Being stuck on one processor for everything is old hat. Amiga recognized this with AmigaDE but couldn't bring it to market very well becuase they didn't target the desktop well enough and lost out to Java on the handhelds.

Reply Score: 1

Amiga who'za what'za magizzit...
by Luposian on Wed 19th Jul 2006 20:05 UTC
Luposian
Member since:
2005-07-27

In other words... "Amiga [whatever]".

I had hope that Amiga, Inc. with the AmigaOne/AmigaOS4, was going to be the finally successful rebirth of the Amiga platform.

But, as the Commodore/Amiga curse is everlasting (it must have a contract with eternity)... it was quickly rendered a hopeless hope against hope. Amiga, Inc. went bye-bye and the AmigaOne was rendered a unpurchasable piece of PPC hardware. And let's not forget that AmigaOS4's development is progressing at an absolutely glacial pace. People are born and die between new revisions of AmigaOS4, it's that slow.

Once again, just as you're within a hair's breadth of snatching up the latest "Amiga return to glory", you find out it was, more or less, for all practical purposes... a mirage! How familiar... only been doing that for a few endless decades, right?

Let's accept it... Amiga's time came and went ages ago. In glory or disgrace, it really doesn't matter. Amiga and all that it represented, is dust in the wind. A pipe dream. A mirage. It has been, ever since then, and it always will be, from now on.

Reply Score: 3

Please
by trezzer on Wed 19th Jul 2006 20:32 UTC
trezzer
Member since:
2006-01-05

I don't know what it is about former users, who suddenly feel the need to toll the death bell over a platform they do not use and do no longer care about. It's not going to change a single mind of those who still want to use an Amiga to make music, watch videos, make videos or any of the other tasks you can do on a computer. They use the Amiga and they stick with the Amiga because they want to - not because they have to.

So what good does it do to tell them they should abandon ship? With what the average Amiga user has been through since Commodore's demise I think it's safe to say that scorn and condescending words will not change their minds.

Some people want a future for the Amiga because it's their computer of choice. Some want to see it regain former glory. The latter group will have a hard time while the first can already rejoice. For me using an Amiga is all about having fun with a computer. It used to be about games, then it was about making games and then all the other creative things you can do with one. Can it be done on other platforms? Sure. Can it be done easier? Sure. Why stick with the Amiga? Because it's still fun and because it's somehow inspiring.

That's the reason why a billion death tolls won't change my mind. If the Amiga loses its relevance I'll decide when to ditch it myself, thank you very much.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Please
by henrikmk on Wed 19th Jul 2006 21:49 UTC in reply to "Please"
henrikmk Member since:
2005-07-10

In my mind, I like to compare Amiga Inc. a bit to Apple, in this case, an incredibly failed version of Apple. And nothing good will come out of staying so quiet for so long.

I think we should detach ourselves from Amiga Inc. the company until/if they get themselves on their feet financially and are able to put out sound plans on what they intend to do with AmigaOS4, AmigaDE, the Digital Habitat and all those buzzwords they flung on their website around 3-4 years ago. There is currently nothing serious to expect from them and this presents the following problems:

- Who the h... would invest in them? What kind of technology do they have, which can't be bought from elsewhere? AmigaDE is based on Elate which is Tao Group's baby. Tao Group has many customers who are bigger than Amiga Inc. As an outsider, they would not be very compelling to invest in or to buy products from. I know that KMOS invested in them, but this was in order to save themselves from bankrupcy. AmigaOS4 seems to be something they either want to move away from or bury when the time comes, otherwise there would probably be a lot more hardware to buy now.

- They are stone-dead-quiet. They have released less software in the past 3 years than even I have. :-) When they release news, it's usually about a partnership which seems very irrelevant to anyone interested in the Amiga technology. There is very little visible progress.

- They demonstrated technology 4 years ago which still hasn't been released. This tells me that development is slow or has stopped because it is very hard to program for Elate without proper development tools. I own the AmigaDE Party Pack, and it was no party to program for. The tools were very basic although the basics of the technology was and is still very impressive.

- They have not demonstrated a concrete vision. They have demonstrated a lot of vague hints on what would be possible generally in the future, but no real concrete "We want to attach this market segment". What is it they want to do with the technology? Produce end-user products? Provide middle-ware for other companies?

What this means, is that I'm afraid for AmigaOS4. It's not getting the amount of water, sunshine and fertilization it needs to grow beyond the current borders of Amiga land and this worries me, because why would Amiga Inc. stint its growth like this?

Edited 2006-07-19 21:53

Reply Score: 1

Just ask Amiga Inc.
by Raffaele on Wed 19th Jul 2006 22:22 UTC
Raffaele
Member since:
2005-11-12

They are un-reachable

If you could even reach them they try to sell you this incredible flop that is AmigaDE

They never focused on Amiga classic and its evolution into AmigaOS 4.0

They seems to exist only to bury under six feet of solid terrain any things related to Amiga.

I wonder where they find money to stay alive.

If only they will bankruptcy then someone with good ideas, good will...

...and (MORE) someone with wealthy money account into banks, then he could sponsor existing evolving AmigaOS 4.0 project.

Edited 2006-07-19 22:25

Reply Score: 2

RE: Just ask Amiga Inc.
by trezzer on Thu 20th Jul 2006 11:39 UTC in reply to "Just ask Amiga Inc."
trezzer Member since:
2006-01-05

Personally I have no problem reaching Amiga Inc.

I know others who have actual business with them also have had no trouble contacting them. I do, however, also know that there are some people they don't respond to, and if your writing in this thread is anything to go by, I'm not surprised if they haven't responded to you, really.

But yes, they don't exactly seem to spend a great deal of energy on their single important asset besides the name: the Amiga operating system.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Just ask Amiga Inc.
by Leo43 on Thu 20th Jul 2006 18:06 UTC in reply to "RE: Just ask Amiga Inc."
Leo43 Member since:
2006-06-26


I do, however, also know that there are some people they don't respond to, and if your writing in this thread is anything to go by, I'm not surprised if they haven't responded to you, really.

I don't think they are in position to ignore anyone...

Reply Score: 1

desktop PowerPC is dead...
by Leo43 on Thu 20th Jul 2006 08:10 UTC
Leo43
Member since:
2006-06-26


The "PowerPC is dead" argument is ridiculous too: what do you think the Airbus is stuffed full of? And what do game consoles use?

But who cares what OS the PS3 is running ?
Do you ever see AmigaOS driving an Airbus ? (no RTOS,...)

Come on !

Of course the PowerPC as special purpose is not dead. But it seems that the PowerPC *desktop* CPU is dead.

And every Amiga user here wants to see, wants to use, wants to customise, wants to play with screens,... with AmigaOS. And even if this OS was to magically appear on one of the above mentionned hardware, users wouldn't be able to see/make use of it *like they want to*.

And I don't think anyone is doing anything for the lack of desktop hardware... But why would they ? Given that even OS4 authors themselves say there's no such market.

Reply Score: 2

RE: desktop PowerPC is dead...
by Raffaele on Thu 20th Jul 2006 10:39 UTC in reply to "desktop PowerPC is dead..."
Raffaele Member since:
2005-11-12

@ Leo43


>>>
anarchic_teapot wrote:

The "PowerPC is dead" argument is ridiculous too: what do you think the Airbus is stuffed full of? And what do game consoles use?
>>>


>>>
But who cares what OS the PS3 is running ?
Do you ever see AmigaOS driving an Airbus ? (no RTOS,...)

Come on !

Of course the PowerPC as special purpose is not dead. But it seems that the PowerPC *desktop* CPU is dead.
>>>


No! You Come on!

The user anarchic_teapot just wanted to point that there are enough sells of PPC processor worldwide which could even TRAIN a desktop market enough big.

Why?

Because it is easy to code on DESKTOP PPC BASED COMPUTERS the programs for other PPC CPUs embedded everywhere.

It is no good doing continuously this:

1) Use X86 (or other platforms) to code for PPC

2) Go to real PPC and run program to debug

3) Return back to alien platforms to perform modifications at the code.

4) Goto step 2 and 3 until program runs flawlessly.

WHAT A WASTE OF TIME AND RESOURCES!

Using directly PPC desktop machines to code for PPC embedded market it avoids unuseful more steps on other platforms.

The Number of PPC embedded machines grows up every year.
This requires new studies in PPC camp, and this consequently means the rise of quality of the PPC processors... And it rise also the number of programmers and good coders needed to realize the enormous quantity of code for the embedded PPC market.

(And if PPC embedded machines are used in critical situations, then it is good their quality and reliability to be increased and the quality of code to be improved)

Amiga-like machines are strong candidates to rule this market of desktop computers for programming directly PPCs, even if these Amiga machines run Linux flavours or other OSes like Open Solaris.

And remember that when it exists an enormous embedded market, and a strong market of desktop PPC machines for coders, then there it could fit a little or medium market for hobby purposes (The AmigaOS market lays here).

Edited 2006-07-20 10:54

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: desktop PowerPC is dead...
by jush on Thu 20th Jul 2006 19:24 UTC in reply to "RE: desktop PowerPC is dead..."
jush Member since:
2006-07-18

--
Using directly PPC desktop machines to code for PPC embedded market it avoids unuseful more steps on other platforms.
--

What are you talking about ? This will never happen. Tools available for a development PC is simply the key here. What to you think ? Even if a ppc desktop platform is/were available (like it was with the power mac), that all tool developers all of a sudden would switch to a powerpc base development environment ?

No point in running you airplane control programm on a local desktop, really.

And I actually prefer cross compilers/debuggers because I can keep the development environment in its configuration while a target might crash beside the other fact I can use the monitor my dev station is connected to see my code and breakpoint rather then shareing it with the targets visual output...

I also do not think the AmigaOS should target another desktop platform. Me personally, I don't want that.

My guess is, also with e.g. the PS3s "home entertainment" functionality, for a lot of us couch-potatos, that might be enough. E.g. watch movies, go online with the embedded broswer and play some games. Writing a letter here and then would be nice - just in case.

So, an Amiga doing things like that, plus adding some mainstream apps (writing a letter and doing a little bit of calculation) and, IMO more important, write code for it (utilize the "bedroom" programmers) could be a way to go.

I don't see the Amiga targeting the professional desktop market (e.g. office use) any time soon (what for?), which leaves the home (and embedded ?) market.(?)

See, a lot compare the PS3 (or X360?) with the Amiga back then. The difference is, if you want to do some coding just for fun, you can either buy a dev system for a couple of 1000 bucks or use homebrew and hack the machine. Back then, you had the full control over the machine - and you could even sell your product without paying another license fee to the manufatorer. (Sometimes I am wondering how the world could change into this direction within that short period of time. What a pitty).

Reply Score: 3