Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:23 UTC
Mac OS X Paul Thurrot, everybody's favourite Microsoft Apple Microsoft zealot, writes on his webpage: "It's funny. Apple calls Microsoft a copy-cat, and yet, I feel like I've seen some of these features somewhere before. Many of the features, however, are just sad. Is this really the best they had to show off right now?" El Reg agrees with him, saying: "On the basis of the evidence so far the sixth release of Mac OS X is, to put it bluntly, a point release." Update by ELQ: A related editorial by Wired.
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"El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:32 UTC
ormandj
Member since:
2005-10-09

Nobody cares what "El Reg" has to say, can we please stop posting comments/opinions from them? They're wrong about everything most of the time, and they always say absurd things.

On the basis of the evidence so far, El Reg is run by a bunch of untrained monkeys, and, to put it bluntly, the writers are baboons.

What a stupid comment. 10.5 IS a point release. Remember, it's OS X (OS 10). 10.4 is current, 10.5 is the new one. It's a minor version change, a point release so to speak. If you want revolution, wait for OS 11. Not only that, but it's WWDC and OS X 10.5 isn't due out until next SPRING. Who knows what the OS will be like by then. Uhg.

Reply Score: 5

v RE: "El Reg"
by somebody on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:04 UTC in reply to ""El Reg""
RE[2]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:11 UTC in reply to "RE: "El Reg""
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

It seems you really didn't get the point. Think about it for a while....

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: "El Reg"
by somebody on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "El Reg""
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

It seems you really didn't get the point. Think about it for a while....

My sarcasting comment could be translated as "WTF??? bwah, non-sense, move along nothing to see"

And I don't need to think about it for a while.
1. Apple commercializes all releases 10.x as full releases.
2. El Reg is not the source of truth but at least they are not spewing ??OS11??
3. It seems more like you need to think about it for a while

Reply Score: 2

v RE[4]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:56 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "El Reg""
RE[5]: "El Reg"
by somebody on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:21 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "El Reg""
somebody Member since:
2005-07-07

In short (now I'm off to sleep)
@1. Apple PR doesn't seem to agree with you (basis of my whole comment), you can rationalize how ever you want (and as much you want), truth speaks for it self
@2. nope, it is probably you can't tell a joke. And I really don't see it funny to laugh at someone lacking reality checks
@3. Yes, I agree

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: "El Reg"
by Cookie Monster on Wed 9th Aug 2006 12:09 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "El Reg""
Cookie Monster Member since:
2006-06-27

My God man do you expect them not to advertise their products? They don't go around claiming it's a new OS, just that it's worth the upgrade.

Besides, I'd rather have new features every year than new features every FIVE years.

Reply Score: 1

RE: "El Reg"
by DrillSgt on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:08 UTC in reply to ""El Reg""
DrillSgt Member since:
2005-12-02

"What a stupid comment. 10.5 IS a point release. Remember, it's OS X (OS 10). 10.4 is current, 10.5 is the new one. It's a minor version change, a point release so to speak."

True for those that know how to read it, false for those that just go by advertising. It is being advertised as a brand new version, not just a minor release.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: "El Reg"
by rcsteiner on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:49 UTC in reply to "RE: "El Reg""
rcsteiner Member since:
2005-07-12

That's no differnt from Windows 98 versus the last OEM versions of Windows 95, except OS X 10.5 might actually include some new features (OSR2.5 already had USB support, FAT32, and MSIE, and those were the big things in the 95->98 "update").

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: "El Reg"
by cilcoder on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:27 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "El Reg""
cilcoder Member since:
2005-07-06

The later versions of Windows 95 didn't really have USB support. It could detect that you plugged somethign in and then crash.. ATleast that was my experience with it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: "El Reg"
by chrish on Wed 9th Aug 2006 12:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "El Reg""
chrish Member since:
2005-07-14

MS demo'd that feature at the Windows 98 release event, too... remember when Gates was onstage with a peon, showing off the USB support? Peon plugged in a scanner, and the machine bluescreened.

- chrish

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: "El Reg"
by orestes on Wed 9th Aug 2006 04:28 UTC in reply to "RE: "El Reg""
orestes Member since:
2005-07-06

Same deal with the jump from 2000 (NT 5.0) to XP (NT 5.1) and Server 2003 (NT 5.2).

Reply Score: 1

RE: "El Reg"
by IgorKH on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:48 UTC in reply to ""El Reg""
IgorKH Member since:
2005-07-13

If that's such a minor version change/point release, how come Apple wants over $100 for the upgrade (If to judge from previous releases)? Microsoft gives service packs away - which do add some features aside from the bug fixes.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:59 UTC in reply to "RE: "El Reg""
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

SPs from MS don't have anywhere near the amount of new functionality as Apple's point releases. Not even CLOSE.

Just because it's a "point release" by definition, doesn't make it a minor upgrade.

As to the 130$ price tag, nobody forces you to pay it. If you don't think the point releases have functionality worth 130$, don't pay for them. It's pretty simple.

Reply Score: 4

RE: "El Reg"
by ronaldst on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:07 UTC in reply to ""El Reg""
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

@ormandj

They were right about "Net Neutrality" though. ;)

Just because you don't agree with their content, doesn't mean "El Reg" should be banned.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[2]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:14 UTC in reply to "RE: "El Reg""
RE[3]: "El Reg"
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:22 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "El Reg""
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Why don't you come up with some proof before making accusations?

El Reg is different than most other sites in that they use a lot of British/European humour in their stories. You know, the power of understatements, subtlety, you name it, everything we Europeans laugh about. They rarely get things wrong, because they rarely make any predictions. All opinional pieces are clearly marked as such, and they use proper links to back up statements.

Comparing El Reg (or its brother, The Inq) to Fox News is completely out of proportion, and if I worked there, I'd be heavily offended. I don't really see how you'd take Steve Jobs' keynote (marketing) as truth, while dismissing El Reg (journalism with a twist).

Reply Score: 1

v RE[4]: "El Reg"
by somebody on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:25 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "El Reg""
RE[4]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:34 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: "El Reg""
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

I'd want you to be heavily offended if you worked there, hopefully enough so you'd quit your job.

"El Reg" is different than most other sites in that they post "news" which is complete trash. Much like Fox posting about democrats, CNN about republicans, etc.

It has nothing to do with the humour style, I've lived in Europe, I am completely in understanding of dry humor.

"Rarely get things wrong" <-- hah.
You want proof? Ok.

http://blogs.msdn.com/jmazner/archive/2005/07/28/444768.aspx
http://www.boingboing.net/2006/01/11/correcting_the_recor.html
http://seclists.org/isn/2004/Mar/0019.html
http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/05/05/1949200
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/05/19/org_registry_vanishes_into_...

Etc etc, that was just 30 seconds of google. I've seen MANY such completely bogus articles on that site. Try and explain it away with my lack of understanding of European humor (even though I *am* European..) but it's simply a joke, and most people in the profession quit getting their news from there a long time ago. You post a link to "El Reg" in every other story you post, however.

Cheers

Reply Score: 4

RE[5]: "El Reg"
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:41 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "El Reg""
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

You post a link to "El Reg" in every other story you post, however.

Quit trolling. We link to El Reg every now and then. You are simply lying here. A quick count shows that out o the 20 articles on the front page, only one has a link to El Reg.

"El Reg" is different than most other sites in that they post "news" which is complete trash.

Not more or less than other sites. Go complain at El Reg, not here, if you have some personal grudge with those guys; or start your own website. Currently, you are trolling the OSNews boards, and while my tolerance for trolling is rather high, limits CAN be reached.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: "El Reg"
by ronaldst on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "El Reg""
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

OSNews doesn't link to "El Reg" in almost every story. I've never see the The Register once viewed as some authoritative source. No where.

Aren't you just overeacting here? O_o

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: "El Reg"
by Thom_Holwerda on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:44 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: "El Reg""
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

16 + 44 = 60;

60 / 15430 * 100% = 0.388%.

Your point was, exactly?

Now quit trolling, I'm this <.> close to do some massive moderation over here.

Edited 2006-08-08 21:45

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:56 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: "El Reg""
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

Nobody is trolling, and you threating is rather uncalled for. You're the boss though, hoss. We can both do math all day long, I could do some statistical analysis and show a much higher percentage of your recent stories containing said links. It's your site though, of course you can post as you will. I didn't realize the rules somehow denied me the opportunity to express my opinion concerning news posted here/sources. Excuse me.

My last post here, you can continue on as you want. Oh, and please don't do your "massive moderation" on me. Obviously you'd prefer retaliation instead of simply having a discussion. I won't make the mistake to post my opinion of a source you use again. I'll also be sure to be completely accurate in my statements concerning frequency of posts, exaggeration is not appreciated - nor many other kinds of literary expressionism used in european writing. Maybe I'm not the one with the lack of understanding of European lifestyle/humor.

You win.

Reply Score: 4

RE[7]: "El Reg"
by ormandj on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:57 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: "El Reg""
ormandj Member since:
2005-10-09

Threatening, that is. PS - That "edit" bug still isn't fixed. Where do I go post/ask about it, I don't want to go off topic here any more than this discussion has already.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[7]: "El Reg"
by Tom K on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:50 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: "El Reg""
RE: "El Reg"
by rm6990 on Wed 9th Aug 2006 00:00 UTC in reply to ""El Reg""
rm6990 Member since:
2005-07-04

Exactly. Apple specifically said that they have already developed more features that they were intentionally not showing to the public until a future date...

Reply Score: 1

They copied ya Thom ;)
by ma_d on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:33 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

It looks like a repeat of Thom's article earlier today, or yesterday.

Reply Score: 5

JELaVallee
Member since:
2006-01-11

PThurrot makes some good points and I too found the over-all feature set to be lackluster or largely already provided by add-ons to 10.4.x/Tiger.

Virtual desktops... paaa-leeeaaazzze...

Time Machine is neat if only because the interface is so intuitive and this is a desktop with such a feature, not Win Server 2003++.

Now, I do have to say, that almost every point he had was "Vista has this"... which is fine and all that Vista >plans to have feature XYZ<, but Vista is not an actual stable, market-ready product yet either. And all the cool features I've heard about for Vista keep getting dumped or whittled off.

The integration, ease of use, and simplicity of form that MacOS X has is really where it's at. Spotlight has changed the way I use my computer and it worked right out of the box.

I think this whimper of a show-n-tell keynote really illustrates that MacOS X has already made significant advances in the past 4+ years and perhaps having a whole trove of wiz-bang new features in an OS every 6-12 months is neither realistic nor attainable. Perhaps, rightly so.

snark,
Etienne

Reply Score: 5

robertojdohnert Member since:
2005-07-12

"
Time Machine is neat if only because the interface is so intuitive and this is a desktop with such a feature, not Win Server 2003++. "

Regardless, Windows Server 2003 has the feature. Its not new but Apple playing catchup and then trying to say they came up with it, like they did Spotlight which everyone knows the 2003 PDC is where Desktop Search was unvieled on Microsofts part and wound up in OS X 10.4

" Now, I do have to say, that almost every point he had was "Vista has this"... which is fine and all that Vista >plans to have feature XYZ<, but Vista is not an actual stable, market-ready product yet either. And all the cool features I've heard about for Vista keep getting dumped or whittled off. "

And have you tried 10.5 yet? I have had 3 kernel panics and a spontaneous shutdown since I have had it installed. I would hardly call 10.5 in its current state "Market ready" It will take time, like Vista its a pre-release.

"
I think this whimper of a show-n-tell keynote really illustrates that MacOS X has already made significant advances in the past 4+ years and perhaps having a whole trove of wiz-bang new features in an OS every 6-12 months is neither realistic nor attainable. Perhaps, rightly so. "

I personally think Steve and Co screwed the pooch with this keynote because they are too busy jabbing Microsoft. I think they need to concentrate less on MS and concentrate more on Apple Computer. And I wasnt the only one who thougt that.

Reply Score: 2

IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

"Time Machine is neat if only because the interface is so intuitive and this is a desktop with such a feature, not Win Server 2003++. "

Regardless, Windows Server 2003 has the feature. Its not new but Apple playing catchup"

Big time, Microsoft too. While not as flexible as VSC, Novell NetWare has had a past version salvagable utility built in for a dozen years or more.

Everyone ganks from everyone else. Is active directory a grand technology created by microsoft? No, it's a copy of all the high level ideas that Novell's eDirectory is based on. What really matters is who can package it the best.

Reply Score: 1

Well...
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:40 UTC
Tuishimi
Member since:
2005-07-06

...before watching the video, I thought similarly. But as usual Apple has implemented pre-existing features in a very useful manner. I should note that Mr. Jobs mentioned that these are NOT all fo the changes coming to Leopard, that they are not releasing a bunch of changes, including a list of applications that will be new... stuff like that.

I am still wondering what changes will be coming to Finder. I am betting there are some good ones.

Apple probably shouldn't poke fun at Microsoft, but you have to admit it was sort of funny. ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE: Well...
by JELaVallee on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:56 UTC in reply to "Well..."
JELaVallee Member since:
2006-01-11

Just get Path Finder...

I'm sure finder will have neat new features, but I've always found it to be the weakest part of the MacOS X experience. Path Finder fixes that and then some.

Likewise, having also watched videos, I was impressed by the beauty of integration that only Apple seems capable of these days (sorry, transparency and "glass effects" do not make for a better user experience, Vista).

Something I'd love for them to do as an extension of Time Machine's framework is create a system-level uninstaller that doesn't leave junk all over your system. AppZapper is okay and Yank works (with bugs/caveats), but the versioning/journaling foundation that Time Machine offers would be ideal for doing isolated rollbacks on installation events.

cheers,
Etienne

Reply Score: 3

Guess Paul was let down
by Bit_Rapist on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:54 UTC
Bit_Rapist
Member since:
2005-11-13

I think Thurrot gave it the rough review because frankly he was hoping for something that would really set OS X apart from Vista and he didn't see it.

Basically the presentation gave the impression that when Vista ships these two operating systems will likely be on par with each other.

I guess some people were hoping for more and just did not see it. *shrugs*

Reply Score: 2

RE: Guess Paul was let down
by Cookie Monster on Wed 9th Aug 2006 12:06 UTC in reply to "Guess Paul was let down"
Cookie Monster Member since:
2006-06-27

That depends on how you define on par. And don't forget, the good stuff is being kept secret.

Reply Score: 1

Vista 2.0
by paul.michael.bauer on Tue 8th Aug 2006 19:59 UTC
paul.michael.bauer
Member since:
2005-07-06

It seems very chic today to rip Apple and point out that 99% of the features previewed yesterday have been done before. And, I'll grant that the "newness" spin given by Apple is faster than the "spinning beach ball of death."

However, you aren't going to find "ground breaking, totally new ideas" in any commercial software product. It's just too risky to take a lab-idea and put it on retail store shelves.

Where Leopard IS inovative (and Apple ALWAYS inovates this way) is in the presentation and packaging of these new features. What most developers and 'feature checklist' users don't appreciate is the interface to a feature is _just_as_imporant_ as the feature itself. Nobody makes a user WANT to use these "un-inovative" features more than Apple. Here, Apple IS truely breaking new ground.

Another thing all the "Vista will have this too" copy-cat critics miss is that while Windows will have some of these features (eventually...maybe...if they aren't cut), Windows will be having many of them FOR THE FIRST TIME.

Many of Leopard's new features are refinements of pre-exisiting apps (iChat AV, Mail, Dashboard) and are much more stable for being hammered on for a few years.

So...Vista 1.0 or Leopard (Vista sans v1 bugs and with a MUCH more mature interface)?

Edited 2006-08-08 20:17

Reply Score: 5

RE: Vista 2.0
by Nelson on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:35 UTC in reply to "Vista 2.0"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Let me get this straight, you defend apple with the notion that they can slap a GUI on a feature that's been done but then say that Vista is having items for the first time?

Mac hasn't had Virtual Desktops before this, and I'm not going to quote the article but it lists a hell of a lot more things that Vista already has.

So is Mac a copycat as well?

You see, all this copycat bullshit is stupid. In the end, no one copied off of anyone. Ever think more than one person can think of the same thing? I mean it isn't like Mac is THE all-awesome-GUI-guru. We must remember, Vista has been in production since when? 03? Earlier?

So Vista 1.0 or Leopard (The OS with less than interesting additions)?

Hell to be nice we should make it XP vs Leopord
or Vista vs Tiger or something.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vista 2.0
by Cookie Monster on Wed 9th Aug 2006 12:11 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista 2.0"
Cookie Monster Member since:
2006-06-27

Wrong. Mac OS X takes a well liked Linux feature and puts a new spin on it. Vista copies straight from OS X, not even bothering to chance the interface and, in some cases, the color scheme or icon style.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Vista 2.0
by sappyvcv on Wed 9th Aug 2006 14:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista 2.0"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

If you believe that, I feel sorry for you. Enjoy living in your own delusional little world.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Vista 2.0
by sappyvcv on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:44 UTC in reply to "Vista 2.0"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

iChat AV - Netmeeting
Mail - Outlook
Dashboard - Well, yeah. Apple JUST introduced these too though

I've said the same thing. Innovation isn't just something completely new, but a new spin on current things. Microsoft does do that, but people like to turn a blind eye to that, and say they don't "innovate" because they have nothing "100% new". The same goes for everyone though. Microsoft just gets different treatment.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Vista 2.0
by Cookie Monster on Wed 9th Aug 2006 12:15 UTC in reply to "RE: Vista 2.0"
Cookie Monster Member since:
2006-06-27

Oh really? Could you give us some examples from Vista perhaps? Because what I'm seeing is Microsoft catching up on 5 years worth of features, many of which OS X and Linux have had for years, and not even bothering to make cosmetic changes to differntiate themselves much less create new, innovative interfaces.

Microsoft's GUIs have always been their absolutely most horrible area and it's where Mac OS X has always shined. Lowering the opacity of your windows isn't enough.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Vista 2.0
by sappyvcv on Wed 9th Aug 2006 14:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista 2.0"
sappyvcv Member since:
2005-07-06

XAML

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Vista 2.0
by Rayz on Wed 9th Aug 2006 22:17 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Vista 2.0"
Rayz Member since:
2006-06-24

Well, there's the ability to use those memory sticks to supplement existing RAM. That'll come in handy.

And support for hybrid disk drives.

Sideshow - software gadgets that can be loaded onto secondary displays such as clip-off remotes and the like.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Vista 2.0
by RGCook on Tue 8th Aug 2006 23:04 UTC in reply to "Vista 2.0"
RGCook Member since:
2005-07-12

I agree that it seems to be en vogue to rip Apple. As if everyone was expecting Jobs to enter the stage on an anti-gravity machine that Apple developed in their "spare time" and is all bummed now that it didn't quite reach that level.

Just more evidence that the Mac set wears their heart on their sleeves.

Folk's call it what you want but Jobs is right. Over the last five years, Apple has made astounding advances while MS has invested billion and we still have nothing to show for it. Time machine may be an evolutionary front end to features previously available, cut the wheel has been around for eons so would you say the BMW M5's is an evolutionary improvement over the wheel?! You see how totally subjective and asinine these accusations are.

The fact is, Apple is making leaps and bounds with every point release of OS X. Their machines are untouchable by anything on the PC front. Anyone who can sit back and poke holes in Apple's performance is so jaded that I suggest they take a few months off from their 24/7 association with the computer and get a dose of reality in the real world!

Bob

Reply Score: 5

RE: Vista 2.0
by cutterjohn on Wed 9th Aug 2006 14:35 UTC in reply to "Vista 2.0"
cutterjohn Member since:
2006-01-28

"I'll grant that the "newness" spin given by Apple is faster than the "spinning beach ball of death.""

Yes Apple ha s a penchant for calling anything a new "feature" when hawking an otherwise mundane release, at least from the end user perspective. They may have made some worthwhile underlying changes but it will take some digging to root them out.

BTW: I call that the pinwheel of death now, as that's what it looks like in OSX. And it doesn['t popup nearly as often as it used to in 10.0 - 10.2, but still happens FAR too frequently....

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Well...
by Tuishimi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:08 UTC
Tuishimi
Member since:
2005-07-06

I have PathFinder too... I am wondering if Apple will "incorporate" some of PF's cool features in the Finder, or if they will go an entirely different direction (via Spotlight-like technology).

Reply Score: 1

Windows versions
by Umbra on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:36 UTC
Umbra
Member since:
2006-03-06

Talking about "point releases"

Windows versions:

Vista ?

Windows 5.2 = Windows 2003
(based on NT)

Windows 5.1 = Windows XP
(based on NT)

Windows 5.00 = Windows 2000
(based on NT)

Windows NT 4.00
NT


Windows 4.X = Windows 95 + 98 + NT

Edited 2006-08-08 20:37

Reply Score: 3

RE: Windows versions
by fpbecker on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:01 UTC in reply to "Windows versions"
fpbecker Member since:
2005-07-08

The Windows version numbers are as follows:

Windows 95 = Windows 4.0.950
Windows 98 = Windows 4.1.1998
Windows 98 SE = Windows 4.1.2222
Windows Me = Windows 4.9.3000

Windows NT 4 = Windows NT 4.0.1381
Windows 2000 = Windows NT 5.0.2195
Windows XP = Windows NT 5.1.2600
Windows Server 2003 = Windows NT 5.2.3790
Windows XP 64 = Windows NT 5.2.3790 [1]
Windows Vista = Windows NT 6.0.xxxx

[1] XP 64 and Server 2003 share the same version number because the former is based on the 64-bit version of the latter.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Windows versions
by Mellin on Wed 9th Aug 2006 07:40 UTC in reply to "RE: Windows versions"
Mellin Member since:
2005-07-06

Microsoft Windows NT 3.1
Microsoft Windows NT 3.51

both looks like windows 3.1

Reply Score: 1

iChat Screen Share
by Cramit on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:38 UTC
Cramit
Member since:
2005-07-07

Why is nobody talking about Screen Share in iChat? This seems like on of the coolest features ever and will make the upgrade worth it for me personally. Screen Share is a feature where you can share a Mac OS X desktop so that two buddies can work collaboratively on a project from anywhere.

I was especially surprised that Jobs didn't talk about it in the keynote.

www.apple.com/macosx/leopard/ichat.html

Reply Score: 3

RE: iChat Screen Share
by eMagius on Wed 9th Aug 2006 03:23 UTC in reply to "iChat Screen Share"
eMagius Member since:
2005-07-06

I seem to recall it being mentioned in the keynote. (Also, MSN Messenger has had this feature since 2003.)

Reply Score: 1

OS Refinement and Interface
by denny on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:47 UTC
denny
Member since:
2006-07-12

Here's the thing about Time Machine. Apple makes this so easy that even a novice understands the concept or will within just a few minutes of using it. That is the beauty of Apple software. Spend just a few minutes with iMovie, iPhoto, iTunes, and in the near future, Time Machine and a user is easily doing some very neat stuff.

That's what it comes down to. With OS X, iWork, iLife, and bundled apps, Apple provides an easy to use interface that is, quite simply, gorgeous. Seriously. Look at Time Machine... it's a back-up utility that looks like time and/or space travel. How cool is that? This is what set's Apple apart. Very few come close to that.

I'm not even going to get into the coolness of the new iChat and all the features which will also, by the looks of it, be very easy to use. So it is refinement and new features as well. I'm sure as release time nears we'll here alot more about many aspects of 10.5 that were not mentioned yesterday. Yesterday was juste a taste.

Oh, and while I'm posting, I'll say a word about the Finder because I've seen it mentioned over and over as something that was not talked about. It's not perfect but I don't understand all the complaints. I have no problem with it and with each new cat it gets better and better. I've used Windows and it's file browser at various jobs from Windows 98 through XP and I'll take the Finder any day of the week. Any day... and with Tiger's Spotlight? I keep a Spotlight search window open all the time. Best project manager you could ask for! Contacts, todos, events, iChat transcripts, files... all in one window and updated real time... and all available as of 2005 in the current version of OS X.

I am excited about OS X, Tiger and Leopard and I'll gladly admit it. I think folks that are complaining are jumping to conclusions and I don't see the point or the usefulness of it.

One last thought, I do wish Apple would chill on the copycat stuff. Kind of pointless but not something I care to get worked up about. There are other things in this world that I'll worry about.

Reply Score: 3

A few things to remember.......
by thingi on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:50 UTC
thingi
Member since:
2006-02-28

1. Apple have more surprises coming for Leopard.

2. All the iLife apps are free with a Leopard upgrade, makes it mush better value than the Tiger upgrade was, now if only Quicktime Pro was free I'd be bouncing off the walls with joy.

3. I can truely see the Dashbord widget from any website really changing the way I browse the web, think about it...... it's a fantastic way to view pages whilst hiding ad's and annoying flash (i find blank spaces in their place just as annoying). Picking and choosing content rocks.

4. FrontRow for all macs :-) Not just new ones, Front row has been a bit sucky but has shown steady progress, Is it one of the secrets, me thinks so!

5. Time machine rocks - instant backup, instant retrival with a great UI! It's so simple, that's what EVERY novice computer user needs, trust me I did PC tech support over a phone for 3 years.

thingi

Edited 2006-08-08 20:53

Reply Score: 2

RE: A few things to remember.......
by NeoX on Wed 9th Aug 2006 01:52 UTC in reply to "A few things to remember......."
NeoX Member since:
2006-02-19

2. All the iLife apps are free with a Leopard upgrade, makes it mush better value than the Tiger upgrade was, now if only Quicktime Pro was free I'd be bouncing off the walls with joy.

Where did you read that? I don't see that anywhere on the Apple site or in the keynote. If you are talking about Photo Booth and Front Row which will be included, those are not part of iLife, which I am certain will be upgraded first part of 2007, for a fee, as usual.

NeoX

Reply Score: 2

eggs Member since:
2006-01-23

Even if you buy a mac you don't get Quicktime Pro? So you can't watch videos fullscreen?

Reply Score: 1

NeoX Member since:
2006-02-19

Even if you buy a mac you don't get Quicktime Pro? So you can't watch videos fullscreen?

Sure you can, just not in QuickTime Player. You can use vlc or some other media player that allows full screen. Heck I wrote a RB app with all of about 10 lines of code that allows me to watch quicktimes full screen. This is only a limitation for the player itself, not the QT format. The Pro version of QT enables things for the Player, the backend formats and what not, are the same.

Regards,

Paul

Reply Score: 1

"I can do it better but I do not do it"
by ebasconp on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:54 UTC
ebasconp
Member since:
2006-05-09

A lot of envy or "I can do it better but I do not do it" in those comments.

MacOS X has new features, they are not THE NEW INVENTION OVER THE BLUE SKY, but the direct competition does not do it neither.

Why in the software industry, if I do not have something, do I have to criticize it????

Reply Score: 2

Watch the damn keynote.
by 47ronin on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:54 UTC
47ronin
Member since:
2006-04-03

Is it too hard to understand that Steve mentioned in the keynote the fact that he's not showing hardly any of the features, but that he would demo 10 of them? The rest, he said, would be delivered next time (which by many predictions would be Macworld San Fransisco, January 2007). So if you're underwhelmed, you REALLY have no idea how Apple works and haven't been watching any of their keynotes/releases. Steve has a knack for saving the best for last.

Reply Score: 3

Another worthless link on OSNews :/
by PowerMacX on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:55 UTC
PowerMacX
Member since:
2005-11-06

10. Core Animation. Doesn't impact end users directly and thus is not of interest.

Ha! Ask any developer if it will impact their apps and therefore their users. It's integrated into Interface Builder, so this is an API that will find its way into many apps by the time Leopard ships.

Reply Score: 5

iLife not free with Leopard
by denny on Tue 8th Aug 2006 20:56 UTC
denny
Member since:
2006-07-12

I think what Steve said was that Photo Booth and Front Row would be included. He did not say iLife would be included.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: "El Reg"
by Nathan O. on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:19 UTC
Nathan O.
Member since:
2005-08-11

I have a 10.2 installation that can run barely any of the software I'd like to run. There's some incongruity somewhere...

Reply Score: 0

As a company Microsoft is so confused
by sp29 on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:21 UTC
sp29
Member since:
2006-01-04

Microsoft can't even get a working "New" OS to the market. About every month they are switching or re-ordering staff to get the job finish. Meanwhile, Apple keeps polishing OS X and making advances to it's users.

Microsoft has to copy, if they didnt' they would still be in DOS and wouldn't have a modern windowing OS.

Windows will never be as good as Apple's OS X. Microsoft as a company is so confused.

Microsoft's public image is failing, while Apple's is rising. I find it so funny when Apple pokes fun at MS.

Reply Score: 1

ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

@sp29

Microsoft can't even get a working "New" OS to the market. About every month they are switching or re-ordering staff to get the job finish. Meanwhile, Apple keeps polishing OS X and making advances to it's users.

They did get Windows Server 2K3 to the market. Just because MS messed up on Longhorn, it doesn't mean that it's going downhill. Silly troll.


Microsoft has to copy, if they didnt' they would still be in DOS and wouldn't have a modern windowing OS.

Everybody has to copy. The standards are being raised every year. You'd buy an OS that doesn't come with an internet browser?


Windows will never be as good as Apple's OS X. Microsoft as a company is so confused.

Apple will never beat Microsoft. MS is inexpensive. Apple is expensive.


Microsoft's public image is failing, while Apple's is rising. I find it so funny when Apple pokes fun at MS.

Of course, Microsoft's public image is failing. It's time for an OS release and the regular prophets of doom are hard at work doing what they do best.

Reply Score: 2

sp29 Member since:
2006-01-04

So what commercial OS doesn't come with an internet browser?

Silly troll? You sound confused as Microsoft regarding Desktop OS's. Are you using that Windows server 2k3 on your desktop? I do believe I was pointing at Longhorn which is called Vista now and probably something different when it comes out.

It's so sad Microsoft with all it's resources. That it's engineers would resort to copying and most of the time copying Apple's OS X.

Reply Score: 1

NeoX Member since:
2006-02-19

Apple will never beat Microsoft. MS is inexpensive. Apple is expensive

You do realize how ridiculous this sounds don't you? So if a company is cheaper they are the winner? If that is the case then how come Hyundai or Kia are not the top selling car maker beating Toyota and Ford?

Let's look at costs for full Retail versions of Windows and OS X.

Windows Home Full Version $199
Windows Pro Full Version: $299

Mac OS X Full Version $129. You would really need to buy XP Pro to get similar features.

In case you didn't see the comparison in price between a similar configured Dell Quad Core Workstation versus the Mac Pro, the Mac Pro was actually cheaper.

MS has like a 90%+ market share so of course Apple is never going to overtake that. But what about brand loyalty and customer satisfaction, Apple surely wins in this department as even Windows users feel the need to slam MS constantly.

Personally I like products from both companies. I like XP and Server 2k3, I have the beta version of Vista and it has promise for sure. I also use OSX and it is a joy to use, especially when I do web development and can create my own testing server just by enabling a few lines in a config file, to enable SMTP and PHP and turning on Apache.

As for copying, they both do that. Widgets? iTunes? Vistas UI? Windows Calendar?


Cheers,

NeoX

Reply Score: 1

Misdirection
by raxrat on Tue 8th Aug 2006 21:22 UTC
raxrat
Member since:
2006-01-05

I too was a bit unimpressed, but my take on it was totally different. The keynote did not demo Leopard, it deomed Leopard versions of select applications runing on Tiger. They said they were not going to show the most secretive features because they don't want MS to copy. That's got to be true. Vista looks like a toy and has way too many "pieces of flair." They are way overdoing the UI. Apple wants them to keep going in that direction and likely plan to release Leopard as a more professional-looking UI (unified Mail.app and iTunes.app look all around, less drop shadow...etc). Likewise, the TimeWarp interface is ridiculously tacky and they will certainly not release it like that. That's another clear misdirect. No iTunes movie rentals+ video iPod as well. Why? They want don't want Zune to copy anything there just yet either. Apple is going to seriously take on MS this time. I think 10.5 Leopard will be a big release, mostly because it will be heavily optimized for Intel (and 64-bit) and include some new stuff we have not been shown. Vista will look slow and flat in comparison. My only real concern with the keynote was how bad Jobs looks. Hope the dude is alright.

Reply Score: 2

mypinkshrimp
Member since:
2006-08-08

Until Apple introduce an interface that looks and feels like a cow's udders, all their releases will be point release. OS X? "X" as in "no udder nipples" I say.

Reply Score: 1

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

No, man... I said take two, then call me in the morning. The world can't understand you right now, you're on a different plane of consciousness.

...and looking in the mirror is scary, but I recommend it anyway.

Reply Score: 1

It is a point release stupid!
by abraxas on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:01 UTC
abraxas
Member since:
2005-07-07

Amazingly stupid article. As someone already mentioned. 10.5 is a point release. Are the authors really that dumb that they don't understand version numbers? I think that people are so used to Apple releasing incredible upgrades everytime they do a point release that they expect more of the same. Besides, it isn't due out any time soon and Apple has a penchant for surprising people. I don't doubt at all that they have something up their sleeves.

The only issue I do have with Apple's scheme is that they charge you for a point release. If it ends up that this release really isn't much more than the article claims then I can't really justify Apple's pricing.

Reply Score: 0

RE: It is a point release stupid!
by raxrat on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:12 UTC in reply to "It is a point release stupid!"
raxrat Member since:
2006-01-05

"The only issue I do have with Apple's scheme is that they charge you for a point release. If it ends up that this release really isn't much more than the article claims then I can't really justify Apple's pricing."

Sure you can, the price of the point releases subsidizes their development. In this case, the porting/optimization to Intel machines. You either buy one or you buy a new (Intel) Mac and the cost of the OS is included in the hardware. You don't think that upgrades all the way back to 10.0 should be free, do you? Only the "good" ones then? By the way, Windows XP Pro is still selling for $300. The thing is 5 years old!

Reply Score: 2

abraxas Member since:
2005-07-07

Sure you can, the price of the point releases subsidizes their development. In this case, the porting/optimization to Intel machines. You either buy one or you buy a new (Intel) Mac and the cost of the OS is included in the hardware. You don't think that upgrades all the way back to 10.0 should be free, do you? Only the "good" ones then? By the way, Windows XP Pro is still selling for $300. The thing is 5 years old!

First of all your comparison to Windows XP Pro is not valid at all. After you buy Windows XP you can get all the upgrades for free. In fact if you buy XP now you already have SP2 installed, and if a SP3 comes out you get it for free. Look, I'm the last person on earth to defend Microsoft but at least they don't charge you for upgrades of the same version. SP2 had several big changes and everyone got it for free.

As for subsidizing Intel porting, I don't think that's really fair to PowerPC users who gain nothing from Intel support but have to pay to upgrade anyway. Even Intel users didn't really have a choice but to change to an Intel machine if they wanted a new Mac.

My point is that if the upgrades really are minimal it is a ripoff to pay $130 for it when you get those kinds of upgrades for free with pretty much every other system.

I still stand by my position about version numbers although. There really shouldn't be any revolutionary changes in a point release. The only reason Apple has introduced so much since version 10.0 is because 10.0 really seemed like an unfinished product, and it needed updates.

Reply Score: 1

What people seem to be missing..
by Ronald Vos on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:10 UTC
Ronald Vos
Member since:
2005-07-06

..is that the wired article was the most stupid one of them all. We can all Thurrot copycatting OSNews, or The Register, but Wired is the only one pretending the new changes mean absolutely nothing.

Virtual Desktops and a well-integrated systemwide To-do list are both things that don't look like much at first, but are great productivity-enhancers once you do use them.

Let's not forget 95+% of the market has neither of them.

Reply Score: 3

butters Member since:
2005-07-08

I thought the Wired article was the best of the three. It didn't go into depth with the technical stuff, but the author made some interesting editorial remarks. As a real journalist (whatever that means these days), he described the event and put it in context. He made references to The Steve's appearance, the presentation's pace and cadence, and the gaping holes in the usually impenetrable RDF.

The remark that speculates about Jobs' future with Apple and the possibility that this year's keynote was his way of testing or grooming a successor was particularly insightful, in my opinion. He might not have any evidence, but sometimes if you ask the right questions, the answers become obvious.

I'm not a Mac historian, so maybe someone can verify my guess: how does the spring release target for Leopard compare to the release dates of other Apple software announcements at the August keynote? Is it unusual for the release to be more than 6 months away at the time of the big announcement? The release cycle could have negatively impacted this year's keynote.

Reply Score: 2

iTorrey Member since:
2006-02-13

Tiger was announced at WWDC in August 2004 and was released in April of 2005 IIRC. Previous OS X releases were at around 10 to 12 months (shocking I know.. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X#Versions) however around the time of the release of Tiger, Apple said they would be moving out to a 18-24 month release cycle for OS X and that this platform would serve them well for the next 10 to 15 years (IIRC).

Reply Score: 1

Backup on Windoze 2003?
by Hjhighlo7 on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:15 UTC
Hjhighlo7
Member since:
2006-02-05

I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Did I read someone say something about Windows Server 2003 having something similar to Time Machine?

Hmmm.... How many people, especially your older relatives, have Windows Server 2003 running AT HOME? Anyone?

Point blank, save these posts and let's all meet back here come December 2007. The market share will tell the truth.

Frankly, many of us on these comments are likely Sys Admins. I'm tired of playing Sys Admin to family members when I get home due to all the B.S. updates, and anti-virus requirements, and spyware thingys, and notifications, of protection on Windows machines. GIVE ME A BREAK. If people don't see that Windows is now getting to be just one be FARCE they are blind and deserve to spend more money for protection. It's a security nightmare at home and in the corporate world with Windows. There's more downtime now due to UPDATES on Windows as we've never seen before. It's not JUST because of script-kiddies or spyware crap. It's because the Windows backbone architecture continues to allow for this sort of crud.

Now, now, don't get me wrong. I'm sure as Apple gets even more popular it too will continue having more security issues. But I don't really think it will ever get to the level that Windows Environments have traversed to.

Sorry, I'm ranting. Apple's pretty cool, not perfect, but very very nice. Give a try!

Cheers,

Reply Score: 5

RE: Backup on Windoze 2003?
by n4cer on Tue 8th Aug 2006 22:33 UTC in reply to "Backup on Windoze 2003?"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm sorry. I must have missed something. Did I read someone say something about Windows Server 2003 having something similar to Time Machine?

Hmmm.... How many people, especially your older relatives, have Windows Server 2003 running AT HOME? Anyone?


The technology (Volume Shadow Copy) originated on Server 2003. It is included in Vista as well.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Backup on Windoze 2003?
by apoc on Tue 8th Aug 2006 23:05 UTC in reply to "RE: Backup on Windoze 2003?"
apoc Member since:
2006-03-24

"The technology (Volume Shadow Copy) originated on Server 2003. It is included in Vista as well."

weird thing is, I remember seeing it back in 2001, Windows XP, used to disable it among other unnecessary services, now, maybe server 2003 introduced the client for interacting with VSC, no?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Backup on Windoze 2003?
by n4cer on Wed 9th Aug 2006 00:38 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Backup on Windoze 2003?"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

weird thing is, I remember seeing it back in 2001, Windows XP, used to disable it among other unnecessary services, now, maybe server 2003 introduced the client for interacting with VSC, no?

Actually Server 2003 would've introduced the server portion of VSS, the client shipping with XP. I don't remember if XP RTM included the client but I'll take your word for it as MS has shipped features in the client ahead of the server before.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Backup on Windoze 2003?
by Ford Prefect on Wed 9th Aug 2006 01:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Backup on Windoze 2003?"
Ford Prefect Member since:
2006-01-16

So tell me, is it included in Vista Home Edition? Or only "everyone has cracked it to be" Premium Edition?

Reply Score: 2

well
by broken_symlink on Tue 8th Aug 2006 23:04 UTC
broken_symlink
Member since:
2005-07-06

thank god i don't develop on os x. apple keeps destroying people's apps by building them into the os. now desktop manager will join the ranks of forgotten apps. oh well at least it makes life easier for me, the end user.

Reply Score: 1

RE: well
by protagonist on Wed 9th Aug 2006 04:41 UTC in reply to "well"
protagonist Member since:
2005-07-06

"thank god i don't develop on os x. apple keeps destroying people's apps by building them into the os."

You're right of course. You better develop on Windows because we all know MS never builds other peoples applications into the OS.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: well
by Rayz on Wed 9th Aug 2006 22:24 UTC in reply to "RE: well"
Rayz Member since:
2006-06-24

Actually, they tend to buy them out, which beats the alternative.

Reply Score: 1

Tiger was announced at WWDC 2004
by jocknerd on Tue 8th Aug 2006 23:33 UTC
jocknerd
Member since:
2006-01-26

It shipped April 2005. So expect Leopard to ship sometime in March or April next year.

Reply Score: 1

RE:
by Yomama on Tue 8th Aug 2006 23:43 UTC
Yomama
Member since:
2005-07-21

" To recap, Apple just announced that Leopard is a seriously minor update. Is anyone else shocked about this? And if not, what the heck is wrong with you? "

Yes, it is a minor point release. Exept we will see this "Minor" point release for sure in early 2007 which you can't really say for Vista.

I was hoping for a bit more, but on the other hand I probably don't even use half of the features 10.4 Tiger has to offer. I'm very happy with what I have now. All the "minor" updates will make me hopefully more productive. Thats all it counts really. Making money with the darn thing and have a good computing experience.

Reply Score: 1

Exactly the point...
by MikeekiM on Wed 9th Aug 2006 01:17 UTC
MikeekiM
Member since:
2005-11-16

Timemachine vs. Shadow Copy.
Apple's way vs. MS.

Let's face it, both companies have the same idea,
so, you Microsoft kisser's upper can take due credit.
But, we Apple users will ENJOY using the feature,
while you will be SMUG about simply HAVING it and NEVER using it.

Again, Microsoft Needs Apple, to spur MS to put something INTERESTING into it's OS. The BEST thing you could do to keep the MS train running is to buy an Apple, and put some more fear of GOD into MS. It's the only thing that works.

Secondly, lets be real, Apple isn't going to take over 90% of the business market. It may make some head road into the home market but MS is still SAFE. As a matter of fact, Apple's ideas keep people interested in OS's, and Microsoft will actually see MORE SALEs with the back and forth in the industry press about OS X vs. VISTA. Apple has probably DOUBLED Ms's initial sales for VISTA. So, you MS lovers needed barf your lunch if fear that MS is headed down the toilet.

Having said that, If you are interested in OS's, Apple is still THE machine to own.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Exactly the point...
by n4cer on Wed 9th Aug 2006 01:48 UTC in reply to "Exactly the point..."
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

Again, Microsoft Needs Apple, to spur MS to put something INTERESTING into it's OS. The BEST thing you could do to keep the MS train running is to buy an Apple, and put some more fear of GOD into MS. It's the only thing that works.

That's funny considering Apple has integrated more and more features from Windows, *n*x, and the PC since MacOS 8.

Reply Score: 2

Steve faked Vista's logo
by Dias on Wed 9th Aug 2006 03:00 UTC
Dias
Member since:
2006-02-20

At least he can use Photoshop...

http://www.longhornblogs.com/default.aspx

Reply Score: 1

RE: Guess Paul was let down
by Wowbagger on Wed 9th Aug 2006 03:52 UTC
Wowbagger
Member since:
2005-07-06

Thurrot is a f--king idiot, because he overlooked the "D" in WWDC. It's a developers conference, Jobs was sort of focusing on the developers stuff. There was already a whole bunch of consumer stuff in the presentation which he added so all the whiners would't start crying "Apple is going bankrupt" again.

So if Turdrot wants flashy user bells and whistles he'll have to wait for those "top secret features" Jobs mentioned, because SJ will surely show those off with a big bang at the premier Apple consumer event in San Fransisco, or whenever Leopard will be released.

Edited 2006-08-09 03:54

Reply Score: 1

well!!
by Hakime on Wed 9th Aug 2006 04:25 UTC
Hakime
Member since:
2005-11-16

How can Thurrot, or theRegister or whoever else say something intersting about OS X and be linked in OS News?

I mean that whatever those guys say about OS X can not be associated with a news about OS X, Thom!

Anyway, the thing is that they can not accept that Leopard is leaving Vista in the dust.

Back up features exited for a while, even in Windows, but who is using it? The micorosoft implementation just sucks, the thing with Time Machine is that it is insanly well implemented and it gives to the 3D interface a real use, not a just like the useless 3dflip of Vista. Time Machine is somethinfg that users will use because it does not just back up your files, it provides a tremendus way to recover them, try with win2003 it just sucks, really!

If i look at Mail, iCal iChat in Leopard they just bring so much new features, cool features, i don't find this in Vista.

Features to features comparison, Leopard is well ahead of Vista, there is no need to argue about this. Time machines seems to rock, again iChat is great, Mail is great, Web clip in dashboard is a great idea, Spaces is great because even if such virtual desktop exists in Linux, i think that the implementation of Spaces is great by leavering the power of Expose.

And it obvious that we still know very few things about Leopard. Many other new features have not been discussed in public, but they are at the WWDC. The new Safari/webkit has not been discussed, very information about the new iCal, Spotlight, what has been done in the graphic layer with quartz, the work in the kernel (we only know that Dtrace is there now), the new advances in the carbon and cocoa API (we know few things about Xcode 3, which i think is big!!!!), nothning about the Finder (which basically means that something is definetely happenning with the finder), etc......

We know very few things basically, right? I could not go to the WWDC this year but one of my colleague is there, and from what i heard from him is that very few things has been shown to the public and a lot of is going on. I also know that Apple is discussing what has been done with LLVM abd gcc.

Well a lot things to come i guess. Apple did not do any demo of Spotlight which seems to show that something is also going on there.

Wait and see, don't lose your time with the limited capability of thinking of Thurrot and al..... I don't understant what are they complaining about? Most of the features of Leopard that has been shown so far, won't be in Vista, so what?

Personnaly fron what i saw about Leopard at the keynote makes me think that it seems huge!!!!

Reply Score: 4

MSN Messenger
by ashan on Wed 9th Aug 2006 04:33 UTC
ashan
Member since:
2006-06-12

Can someone give an in-depth comparison of MSN Messenger with iChat AV 4.0? I had no idea it had a built in screen sharing feature

Reply Score: 1

Exactly the point...
by Matto on Wed 9th Aug 2006 09:00 UTC
Matto
Member since:
2005-07-06

Maybe for you Apple is THE machine for you to own, but I'm interested in OS's and would take Windows or Linux anyday over it.

It just doesnt work for me.

Reply Score: 1

like cars like computers
by REM2000 on Wed 9th Aug 2006 09:01 UTC
REM2000
Member since:
2006-07-25

I agree with some other posters, this copying crap is starting to go overboard. Yes it was a little funny to have "start your photocopiers..blah" however i don't think Apple should keep bashing Microsoft this much, it's the main reason i don't like oracle.

What companies need to do is concentrate on their own products, and make sure they are being written well and are running well. Yes they need to see what the competition are doing, but they don't need to go into a PR stunt of bashing this and that.

Until the WWDC Apple and Microsoft seemed to be ok with each other, there is a jibe here and there but it all seemed very light hearted. However the WWDC just seemed plain ugly, really if i'd paid to go to that WWDC i would have been cheesed off at hearing and seeing so much about Vista, when really i came to the show to see apple software and hardware.

Ive been to lots of Microsoft events with my Apple Powerbook computer (i like note taking on it) both technet and MSDN and ive never had a bad glance or a nasty comment from either fellow attendees or Microsoft Staff, they have always been friendly. However after that tantrum up on stage from apple, i would feel quite embarrised to go to a Microsoft event.

So far it seems that Microsoft have come out better after this as they have not lowered themselves by replying to it, although i know that a few bloggers have said a couple of things.

As for the whole copying thing, so what. If there's a nice feature an OS sports then why not have it in my OS of choice. I do love virtual desktops in Linux, so having them in built in natively (i know some 3rd party stuff which can do it). I use windows aswell, i think it's a good product, i loved Win2k, didn't think much of XP, however i do like spotlight and if Microsoft have integrated it into Vista then excellent, good news for me (didn't like the desktop search things in XP)

The car industry does it all the same, but no-one writes millions of articals about em. Volvo brought us the seat belt, merc's gave us ABS, excellent my BMW has both, and so do every other modern car, these things saves lifes. I know that OS features don't save lifes, but they save time.

Edited 2006-08-09 09:02

Reply Score: 2

RE: like cars like computers
by netpython on Wed 9th Aug 2006 09:20 UTC in reply to "like cars like computers"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

What companies need to do is concentrate on their own products, and make sure they are being written well and are running well.

Maybe the biggest revolution sought after is that it runs,looks good and is delivered (on time).

The humour aside.
You cant say Apple makes a bad figure in this respect.

Reply Score: 1

Oh well
by Vorbisophile on Wed 9th Aug 2006 09:25 UTC
Vorbisophile
Member since:
2006-01-06

Could you all take a deep breath and leave your keyboards alone for just maybe, a moment. It's getting silly.

The reason why, Apple fans, people are suddenly 'bashing' Apple, is because the WWDC was a bit cotton-candy. Nothing substantial in regards to 10.5 aside from Time Machine, Intel EM64T, maybe Core Animation... and sure, that may well be because they actually do believe Microsoft will copy some of the features. On the other hand they know you lick Apple's boots, eat from Apple's hand, and sing praise in the house of Apple. They could've shown you just a new window design and you'd be defending it on here with such sweeping statements as 'It raises productivity to a new level', or 'They've implemented a GUI in such a way that while not new, is definately vastly more easy-to-use/user-friendly/intuitive than anything else'. Delete as applicable for that last one. Now I bet I've managed to wind at least one of you up there haven't I?

It's been 'chic', G-d, ca'n't believe that word is even being used here... but anyway, it might be 'en vogue', good lord, another (well, two). Anyway. It might be both of those things to 'bash' Apple at the moment, but it's also just fair-play. Bash Microsoft/Linux/Sultan of Bahrain, whatever, all you want. Just don't expect to not be leaving yourselves wide-open to the same treatment, directed back at Apple.

I personally, find it funny, regardless of who's getting attacked, because usually there's a grain of truth in there, and provided you form your own opinions sensibly, what does it matter who's saying what on which website this week? Grab a cup of coffee, or tea, head outside, maybe smoke a cigarette if you smoke, calm, down.

Reply Score: 1

"Un-released features"
by kaiwai on Wed 9th Aug 2006 09:37 UTC
kaiwai
Member since:
2005-07-06

And masking them off saying, "oh, we don't want Microsoft to copy us!" - pulease, what a heap of crap; Microsoft is already well and truely past the point of where they can start adding new features; they're in the release candidate stage soon, they're not going to add a feature and require a restart of the beta testing over again simply to spite Steve and his ego.

I'd say the most logical thing is this; it isn't feature complete yet; what Steve showed off were some very beta versions sitting on a hardly-been-modified MacOS X; why didn't he even mention them? because the developers told him that they're unsure as to whether they'll make the cut off point for final inclusion before the first developer previews come out.

So rather than saying, "MacOS X 10.5 has such revolutionary features, alot of it is still in development, however, these are features which we're 100% will be included with the final product...." but instead, he chose to bullshit is way out of the situation by making up some sort of 'secret squirl' excuse.

I'd say that there will be more dtrace, zfs probably thrown in for good measure, maybe some improvements in other areas, optimsiations etc, but nothing incredibly revolutionary.

And yes, for the record (to a previous poster), I am jaded, misserable and cynical; I can't stand Steve and his constant prancing around the stage making out that small step by step movements forward is an revolution; I sweear, when his son made his first steps, did he declare it a revolution in walking as we know it?! geeze.

Bill Gates is no better; a nasily whiney little snot bag who goes on and on about irrelevant crap, and worse part, like Steve, not having a f*cking clue about what he is talking about.

So one end of the spectrum we have Steve Jobs and Bill Gates with their portable RDF machines, and at the other end of the spectrum you have Digital and Sun, with great hardware engineers and designers, but could literally make a person so depressed they'll want to kill themselves by using the exact chair they're sitting on.

Reply Score: 1

RE: "Un-released features"
by netpython on Wed 9th Aug 2006 10:33 UTC in reply to ""Un-released features""
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

To make it short,you're just pissed with the on stage performance of the above mentioned executives in general am i right?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: "Un-released features"
by Soulbender on Wed 9th Aug 2006 10:57 UTC in reply to "RE: "Un-released features""
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"To make it short,you're just pissed with the on stage performance of the above mentioned executives in general am i right?"

Personally, I just dont see why so many people so captivated by Jobs. He's just another slick, sweet talking salesman, only a bit less successfull (and more slick) than his Redmond collegues.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: "Un-released features"
by netpython on Wed 9th Aug 2006 11:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: "Un-released features""
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

He's just another slick, sweet talking salesman

Well i don't give the rats ass about what any sales person says in general.Nevertheless i personally don't dislike the Apple website layouts,their products.They look quite good and the professional multimedia apps that have been written for the mac are very appealing.The whole package is not that bad these days.Allthough i use a lot of OS's, i favour using unix in generall.A unix derivate like OSX is not that bad when it's coming slick and slender out of the box.It has a lot of to offer.

As some are just willing to spend more money to buy themselves into a perceived cult world.This doesn't have to be true for the significant majority.I mean for a lot of professional users the mac just offers them the right set of tools to make a difference.The way you are saying it users should almost apologise their choice of platform which is wrong i think.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: "Un-released features"
by kaiwai on Wed 9th Aug 2006 18:54 UTC in reply to "RE: "Un-released features""
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

To make it short,you're just pissed with the on stage performance of the above mentioned executives in general am i right?

No, its management in general, and their ability to turn very mundane changes into grand revolutions; the childish poking Apple makes at Microsoft and its competitors instead of focusing on their product line up only.

I find it rather humorous to see that Steve is quite willing to take a jab at Microsoft over Windows Vista, when the cold hard reality is, MacOS X has some major issues that need to be addressed; broken API's that have been broken since the 10.0.x days, lack of decent H264 performance on 'low end' hardware etc.

Its the old story of 'those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones' but Steve seems to be quite content with ignoring advice, and continues to throw those stones.

Reply Score: 1

Keep Digging Apple
by segedunum on Wed 9th Aug 2006 10:39 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

Apple have dug themselves a very large hole here, and they're still digging. It would have been wise to make a passing mention at Vista's similarity with what Apple has done with OS X over the years, but subtly. That way people would get the message and it would be magnified. What Apple did was about as subtle as a train crash.

What Apple have actually done is given Microsoft and Vista an awful lot of free publicity, and worse, they simply look desperate. Mac fans come to Mac events to here about the Mac, not about Windows.

Reply Score: 1

yet
by Cookie Monster on Wed 9th Aug 2006 12:03 UTC
Cookie Monster
Member since:
2006-06-27

And yet it has more new features and innovative interfaces than Microsoft has developed in the PAST FIVE YEARS.

Reply Score: 2

RE: yet
by Rayz on Wed 9th Aug 2006 22:27 UTC in reply to "yet"
Rayz Member since:
2006-06-24

This would be true if MS hadn't actually been updating XP and a load of other operating systems and applications , WHILST developing Vista.

When Apple actually builds an OS from scratch, rather than bolting bits onto one they bought in a fire sale, then what you say will be true.

Reply Score: 1

Microsoft makes software for the mac...
by mkone on Wed 9th Aug 2006 14:03 UTC
mkone
Member since:
2006-03-14

...And they are business partners with Apple. I don't think jobs ever forgets that even for a second. Aple will get traction in the Office because of Microsoft Office. This is just billionares having fun, and peons like us not understanding it.

Heck, I don't think Gates minds Apple saying they copy their features. Only uber geeks who live for the cred would probably mind. They are both insanely rich people and leave it to us to fight over who is the l337 while they laugh all the way to the bank.

Reply Score: 1

looks like...
by cutterjohn on Wed 9th Aug 2006 14:32 UTC
cutterjohn
Member since:
2006-01-28

...the odd numbered Mac OS X updates are establishing a history of being feature poor.

10.1 (free) a performance update & bug fixes mainly
10.3 nothing truly worthwhile in "new" features
10.5 ditto

while 10.2 & 10.4 offered performance AND truly useful features.

At least Apple seems to have given up on the ludicrously long "feature" lists in which they had to dig so deep for those "features" that it was idiotic. The worst part of this being was that they usually ignored all of the more important low level updates which had more meaningful impact.

Besides, I want mboxes back for Mail, not the hacked up crap that we have now so that the broken spotlight can work with Mail, as I have to wonder WHY spotlight cannot locate a particular message in an mbox without having to break out the messages individually. Have apple programmer never heard of offsets? or passing a message identifier to mail and let it do the work?

And a real feature would be to make memory management & caching less aggressive or increase the garbage cleanup time as each time I end up rebooting for whatever reason I end up with gigabytes more of free disk space, which is rapidly eaten again by the memory management subsystem. (And this is on machines with a minimum of 640M of physical RAM! After a certain point there is little reason to be caching so much as the system will just sit and thrash through the VM pagefiles, instead of doing something useful...)

(As a counterpoint, yes I could have moved pagefiles to a separate partition, but a) I didn't setup for this as 10.0-10.2 didn't have this problem, and b) I didn't create a partition sized for this purpose and don't feel like doing a backup then partition, and manually/automatically restoring, also I don't feel like experimenting with not as robust/tested mac artition re-size toosl... wasted time. Linux doesn't do this as one uses a specifically created swap partition, which I usually size at 1.5-2x physical memory, and more partition can be added. Windows can be forced to limit pagefile size, as can most other OSes... If this limit set exists for OS X I haven't found it yet.)

Reply Score: 1

dam you people!
by tryphcycle on Wed 9th Aug 2006 16:09 UTC
tryphcycle
Member since:
2006-02-16

it need ceases to amaize me, the amount of over dramatized jargon i read on these forums, after Steve Gets off stage! apple is a extreamly well run company... at the top of there game.... market share growing... and yet... there are still people out there that think they are doomed! what a joke!

look.... apple jabs at MS the other day...were in HUMOR! and you guys have taken it so seriously! the truth is... all OSes have borrowed concepts from the other! that totally normal. for example. Solaris and Irix were full 64bit LONG be for windows and OS ten...! who copied who? who cares.... that the evolution of the computer! Apple had a usable GUI LONG before any one else.... cool! who cares!!!!

yea... vista has some similarities to OSX... so! hell soem may say OSX is more like windows than OS9 was.... (and no... apple did not copy the windows task bar when creating the Dock.... NeXT had a dock 7years before Win had the task bar)

any way.... this is competition!!!!

and apple had a sence of humor! which non of you have

Reply Score: 2

my own checking
by ashan on Wed 9th Aug 2006 18:11 UTC
ashan
Member since:
2006-06-12

Okay, so i did a little of my own checking on MSN Messenger (its called live messenger or something like that now). I thought that maybe i hadn't used windows in a long while, so i wasn't giving its new apps a fair shake. I went onto my roommates newly bought HP desktop to try messenger and some other new microsoft software. Here are my impressions:

Why are we comparing windows to the Mac? MSN messenger has advertisements on its interface! the UI is a cluttered piece of advertising for every microsoft service, the video conferencing is not even comparable, and i had apps unexpectedly quit like 3 or 4 times in that few hours that i was using it. It may list comparable features (it did have a request-remote-assistance thing, which i'm assuming is similar to screen sharing but i couldn't get it to work), but in the end Microsoft tacks on features without regard to the whole application design/architecture.

I'm glad you all think Leopard is ho-hum. Hopefully i won't have as many people bugging me to check it out like i experience now with Tiger.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: "Un-released features"
by Soulbender on Thu 10th Aug 2006 02:58 UTC
Soulbender
Member since:
2005-08-18

I'm pretty sure I didn't say anything about Apple products. I was commenting on the cult of Steve Jobs.

Reply Score: 1