Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 15th Aug 2006 18:13 UTC
SuSE, openSUSE Lenovo debuted its first Linux-based laptops at LinuxWorld in San Francisco on Tuesday, running SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 provided through a partnership with Novell. The systems are the result of a two-year research effort by the two companies as well as Intel, whose Centrino Duo processors power the portable. The Thinkpad T60p is an inch thin and weighs 4.7 pounds. Several features of Lenovo's Windows-based notebooks, including Help Center support, the ThinkPad Configuration Utility, Power Manager and Access Connections have been ported to Linux, the company said.
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nice
by macisaac on Tue 15th Aug 2006 18:49 UTC
macisaac
Member since:
2005-08-28

well I know next hardware upgrade cycle here at work what laptop I'm going to want... (that is, if there's no amd option available for me to pick ;-)

Reply Score: 1

why so expensive?
by jakesdad on Tue 15th Aug 2006 18:54 UTC
jakesdad
Member since:
2005-12-28

compared to the windows version.

Reply Score: 4

RE: why so expensive?
by Bastian on Tue 15th Aug 2006 18:57 UTC in reply to "why so expensive?"
Bastian Member since:
2005-07-25

Companies often pay manufacturers to include a lot of garba^H^H^H^H^Hbundleware with Windows machines.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: why so expensive?
by jakesdad on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:04 UTC in reply to "RE: why so expensive?"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

Still... Its a $50 OS, the machine should only be $50 more... unless this is how they offload the cost of support. But if you had one of these Lenovo is probably the last place I would look for support,,, the communities that will develope around these things will/is great.

Reply Score: 1

Graphics card
by viniosity on Tue 15th Aug 2006 18:56 UTC
viniosity
Member since:
2005-07-06

I know I know.. it's not why you buy a thinkpad, but it's hard to compare the T60p spec for spec and dollar for dollar with the Mac Book Pro and walk away with it. The weight is better on the Thinkpad though.

Having it preloaded with Suse certainly does add value for me.. no more waiting 6 months for everything to work. I'd be curious if it came with restore CD's in case you foul things up putting on your favorite distro..

Reply Score: 3

Spendy
by DrillSgt on Tue 15th Aug 2006 18:57 UTC
DrillSgt
Member since:
2005-12-02

Way too spendy. I can get a machine with more capabilities for less with Windows pre-installed. Why does this cost so much?

Reply Score: 5

RE: Spendy
by Bastian on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:17 UTC in reply to "Spendy"
Bastian Member since:
2005-07-25

I've been wondering lately why there don't seem to be *any* low-cost Linux laptops. It's not just that they tend to be more pricey than equivalent Windows laptops, it's also that there just don't seem to be any companies selling low-end notebooks with Linux pre-installed. I'd love to see a <= $1000 laptop that at least comes with some sort of guarantee that I'll be able to get all the hardware working on Linux.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Spendy
by MamiyaOtaru on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:22 UTC in reply to "RE: Spendy"
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

There are a few possible reasons. Speaking of having a gaurantee your hardware will work, a linux laptop is less likely to have a cheaper winmodem.

It would be nice to see a laptop equivalent of those walmart PCs though (I think it was walmart who stocked those Linspire loaded cheapo desktops)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Spendy
by jbrader on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Spendy"
jbrader Member since:
2005-11-12

Check out system76.com

Reply Score: 3

RE: Spendy
by butters on Wed 16th Aug 2006 00:32 UTC in reply to "Spendy"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

Because it comes with a workstation-class ATi FireGL graphics chipset. That adds well over $500 when compared to a consumer-grade mobile graphics solution.

Lenovo probably had to do this out of concern for shipping proprietary drivers with Linux, but there might be other considerations... like getting Linux enthusiasts to but their highest-margin offerings.

Reply Score: 1

My guess
by fretinator on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:17 UTC
fretinator
Member since:
2005-07-06

Here is why I think the price is a bit high:

You are paying for the R&D to get Linux fully working on the laptop (hibernate,sleep,etc) as well as employing the tech support people to support the OS. This is the price of a _currently_ niche market.

Edited 2006-08-15 19:18

Reply Score: 5

RE: My guess
by kaiwai on Wed 16th Aug 2006 05:20 UTC in reply to "My guess"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

The software they're ported is merely the front ends to existing tools; all the above functions you're talking about are all covered by the ACPI specification, which Linux supports out of the box; its all about giving the machine the right 'signals' to activate said features.

Reply Score: 2

RE: My guess
by Isolationist on Wed 16th Aug 2006 08:24 UTC in reply to "My guess"
Isolationist Member since:
2006-05-28

Getting ACPI (hibernate, suspend, sleep, etc) working for Linux on the majority of laptops is a breeze in my experience.

Reply Score: 1

Inexpensive Linux laptop
by Lu-Tze on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:26 UTC
Lu-Tze
Member since:
2006-01-10

@ Bastian (reply is not working for some reason)
System 76 (http://system76.com/) has a couple of laptops (the Gazelle and Pangolin series) that start $899. They come pre-loaded with (you-guessed-it) Ubuntu 6.06.
Of course, you can upgrade these to a lot more expensive versions if you prefer.
Disclaimer: I have never used these so no idea about how good they are etc. but definitely worth checking out.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Inexpensive Linux laptop
by lopisaur on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:47 UTC in reply to "Inexpensive Linux laptop"
lopisaur Member since:
2006-02-27

Very nice tip. I was looking for a company that didn't overcharge that much for a while. Thanks!

Reply Score: 1

Pricey?
by Robert Escue on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:45 UTC
Robert Escue
Member since:
2005-07-08

Since the article does not specify what is included with either machine, checking with Lenovo the base price of a T60p is just under $2,000.00. That is what I would expect to pay for a CoreDuo notebook:

http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/tseries_byo_t6...

Without knowing how the machines are configured it is a little hard to complain about the price!

Reply Score: 2

Thinkpad Pricing
by lfeagan on Tue 15th Aug 2006 19:57 UTC
lfeagan
Member since:
2006-04-01

As a long time Thinkpad owner (and current owner of an X41 tablet, T42p and T43), I can say that all Thinkpads tend to be seen as overly expensive by most who look at them superficially and only consider clock speed, display size, and the like. I am trying to be careful here in my description to avoid turning this into a religious sounding discussion as a certain set of computer users tend to do. For a business professional on the go, the Thinkpad provides some features that are unavailable on other machines.

1) Battery life on my Thinkpads is nothing less than cosmic compared with similar notebooks from other manufacturers. The ability to use a 9-cell + the UltraBay slim battery on a plane trip to Europe and go nearly the entire way without recharging is great. When I have unexpected layovers in airports and everyone else is scrambling for the wall outlets, I always have confidence in my battery life pulling me through, even if I am installing Oracle and pounding the hard drive.

2) The weight of a Thinkpad T-series that matches the features of any comparable notebook is nearly always 0.7 to 1.0 pounds less. This may not seem like a lot to most, but when you are carrying a ton of things, and will then tote it around all day to meetings, shaving a bit of weight is always appreciated. Whenever I have had to carry another manufacturers notebook, I always am reminded how annoying they can be.
3) The keyboard on the Thinkpads is extremely nice. I am a programmer and have in fact purchased two of the desktop versions of the UltraNav keyboard which is identical to the keyboard in my T-series notebooks. As a programmer, having identical keyboards that I like is a great thing. I always feel like I am at a familiar keyboard as I carry a portable version of the keyboard with me as well. IBM has always made the loop complete for accessories for their systems. This requires a level of expenditure on their part that I am not convinced they recover purely through sales of those accessories.

4) The IBM warrany on the 'p' notebooks is always a 3-year warranty and comes with great service. The only time I have ever had a problem a Thinkpad was due to a very careless mistake I made one day when very tired from working on a project. I took responsibility for it, but they still replaced the entire system board for me at no cost. I called, they got a DHL box to me the next morning. DHL picked it up and got it to IBM the next morning. And it was back to me the next morning working perfectly again.

5) The 'p' series has the ATI FireGL graphics which adds a hefty amount to the price (around $500-$700) depending on the model. The 'p' always include a 7200 RPM hard drive, not a 5400 RPM one. The 'p' always come with Bluetooth and the best WiFi at the time. 'p' stands for 'performance' and they usually make good on that by putting in the best components they can find for their workstation-class users.

So, are they more expensive? For those who think of a notebook as some sort of desktop that they will never move, it is a very expensive proposition. For those who are mobile professionals, I can't think of a cheaper notebook that could come close to doing what my Thinkpads do. To me they are not expensive, they are what makes my life possible and I can't see living without such a high quality product.

Edited 2006-08-15 20:01

Reply Score: 5

RE: Thinkpad Pricing
by 2fargone on Tue 15th Aug 2006 20:14 UTC in reply to "Thinkpad Pricing"
2fargone Member since:
2006-02-20

There is another difference in Thinkpads that attracts me, but I'm haven't seen a Levono Thinkpad so I'm not sure it still applies.

Thats the feeling of sturdiness. When you pick one up, it feels well made and durable. Most laptops I deal with feel cheap and fragile.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thinkpad Pricing
by twenex on Tue 15th Aug 2006 20:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Thinkpad Pricing"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

I think I should put a word in for sub-1000-pound (sterling) laptops. I'm very happy with my 700-pound laptop from Fujitsu. That translates to about $US1400, but I'm not sure whether prices in the States would actually be compatible. It might be that the equivalent laptop can be had over the Pond for less than a grand.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Thinkpad Pricing
by eol_of_urnst on Tue 15th Aug 2006 21:16 UTC in reply to "Thinkpad Pricing"
eol_of_urnst Member since:
2006-08-08

Usually, thinkpads are great laptops. My only gripes with the T60p is that it can only be configured for up to 1GB RAM (no 2GB option), and the 1600x1200 screen is only available with the 2GHz cpu. Too bad.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Thinkpad Pricing
by Robert Escue on Tue 15th Aug 2006 21:31 UTC in reply to "RE: Thinkpad Pricing"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

Maybe you should look at the link I provided, because according to Lenovo the T60p can be had with up to 4 GB of memory:

http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/index.html

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Thinkpad Pricing
by DrillSgt on Tue 15th Aug 2006 22:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Thinkpad Pricing"
DrillSgt Member since:
2005-12-02

"Maybe you should look at the link I provided, because according to Lenovo the T60p can be had with up to 4 GB of memory:

" rel="nofollow">http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/index.html"

And that machine is also only available with Windows...we are talking the Linux versions here.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Thinkpad Pricing
by Robert Escue on Tue 15th Aug 2006 22:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Thinkpad Pricing"
Robert Escue Member since:
2005-07-08

OK, and as I have said previously none of the press releases specify configurations. Just because I pointed out a "Windows" configured Lenovo doesn't mean that the T60p that runs SuSe Linux is limited to 1 GB of memory. Eol_of_ernst's statements about the maximum amount of memory that can be installed in a T60p are incorrect.

Maybe you would care to explain to us how the OS controls the maximum amount of memory a particular piece of hardware can use?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Thinkpad Pricing
by DrillSgt on Tue 15th Aug 2006 23:04 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Thinkpad Pricing"
DrillSgt Member since:
2005-12-02

"Maybe you would care to explain to us how the OS controls the maximum amount of memory a particular piece of hardware can use?"

I never said it did. Was just pointing out those are not the ones that will have Linux installed. IBM/Lenovo are notorious for changing laptop configurations in my experience. I have no idea what the new configurations will be, and won;t touch IBM laptops anyway due to too many quality and lack of support. Unless they have changed in the ;ast few years anyway. ymmv on that of course.

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Thinkpad Pricing
by eol_of_urnst on Wed 16th Aug 2006 13:31 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Thinkpad Pricing"
eol_of_urnst Member since:
2006-08-08

I didn't state they couldn't handle 4GB. I tried to configure one with > 1 GB and couldn't at first. Then I found out how (and corrected my opinion with a second post), but still the maximum memory I could configure was 2GB (not 4 GB as stated in the specs). They changed the screen offering configuration too, so perharps a 4GB Lenovo Notebook is only a few website updates away :-D

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Thinkpad Pricing
by lfeagan on Tue 15th Aug 2006 22:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Thinkpad Pricing"
lfeagan Member since:
2006-04-01

My read of the tabook shows the T60p is available in the following configs with the 15.0" UXGA display.
1) 2.00GHz Core Duo T2500 (2623-DDU)
2) 2.16GHz Core Duo T2600 (Many choices)
3) 2.33GHz Core Duo T2700 (Many choices)

ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/pc/pcinstitute/psref/tabook.pdf

FMI on ThinkPads, head on over to http://forum.thinkpads.com

Hope this helps.

Edited 2006-08-15 22:22

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Thinkpad Pricing
by eol_of_urnst on Tue 15th Aug 2006 21:20 UTC in reply to "Thinkpad Pricing"
eol_of_urnst Member since:
2006-08-08

My bad. Found out how to increase memory to 2GB. But the processor X screen resolution still bugs me. Cheers

Reply Score: 1

RE: Thinkpad Pricing
by kaiwai on Wed 16th Aug 2006 05:17 UTC in reply to "Thinkpad Pricing"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Thank you for the good description; I'm looking at getting a laptop/desktop end of this year (at the same time); I'm looking at getting a think pad, and possibly a thinkcentre.

What I'd love to know is firstly, whats the reliability of them like, since it being taken over by Lenovo (formally Legend Holdings)?

Also, has the 965 graphics chipset appeared in desktops and lapptops yet? basically, I am quite happy to purchase a desktop and laptop using the said chip, considering I won't be playing games, and I'll be running FreeBSD or an OpenSolaris distribution on both, 3D performance is really the least of my worries.

Reply Score: 1

Linux users pay more for hardware
by devtty on Tue 15th Aug 2006 21:06 UTC
devtty
Member since:
2006-04-02

A Windows laptop wipped out sounds like a better deal

Linux users pay more for the hardware or pay the same and get a smaller feature set, as the drivers could not use the hardware's full potential

Reply Score: 1

The next time I hear a word ...
by kadymae on Wed 16th Aug 2006 04:58 UTC
kadymae
Member since:
2005-08-02

... about how "overpriced" Mac Hardware or a Linux Pre-Load laptop (like something from System76) is I am so linking this article.

---

IMHO, this is a 50-50 split between a sop to the cries for Linux on a laptop from a major manufacturer and a "screw you very much" to the Linux crowd.

It's not going to sell at that OUTRAGEOUS price, so it will be pulled in short order and the low sales will be used "prove" that there's no market for Linux pre-loads on a laptop.

Well, Lenovo, UP YOURS and twice on Sundays. You've just joined the ranks of Wal-Mart, Best Buy and Starbucks -- companies I go out of my way to avoid.

Reply Score: 1

why they're so expensive
by Ethyriel on Wed 16th Aug 2006 05:32 UTC
Ethyriel
Member since:
2005-07-07

It's because these models come standard with a 2.33ghz CPU, a gig of RAM, a 9 cell battery, and a 100GB hard drive. They also come with a DOS license, SLED is NOT included. They merely guarantee compatability, Lenovo does NOT provide support. Novell does that with the software license.

I'm looking forward to seeing if there are any tweaks to the ACPI with these models, or if all the T60p's will be as compatible with SLED. I'd love a 15" Flexview, but I certainly don't need a processor that fast, and I'd rather add my own hard drive and RAM.

Reply Score: 1

And here are Lenovo documented limitations
by Ethyriel on Wed 16th Aug 2006 05:38 UTC
Ethyriel
Member since:
2005-07-07

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/document.do?lndocid=MIGR...

Even though some of these are known to work in Linux, maybe they're not yet configured off the cd with SLED. For example, active protection for the hard drive, and the fingerprint reader. Also, I think the WWAN adapter should work fairly simply as a USB to serial adapter and ppp, or something like that. At least some function like that, and emperor linux advertises the WWAN on the T60p as functional.

Reply Score: 1

SI measurements
by el3ktro on Wed 16th Aug 2006 09:23 UTC
el3ktro
Member since:
2006-01-10

Argh can't you Americans please also use centimeters and kilograms for measuring like the whole rest of the world is doing!?!? Everyone outside the USA has no clue how long an inch is or how much a pound weights. So is this laptop leightweight or not?

Tom

Reply Score: 2

RE: SI measurements
by Gryzor on Wed 16th Aug 2006 13:53 UTC in reply to "SI measurements"
Gryzor Member since:
2005-07-03

c'mon... google -> inch conversion -> I am Feeling Lucky

Was THAT hard? ;) (and I live in Spain, no inches, pounds, miles, etc. here)

Reply Score: 1

Still not pre-installed
by mksoft on Wed 16th Aug 2006 09:34 UTC
mksoft
Member since:
2006-02-25

From the 1st footnote at
http://www.pc.ibm.com/us/notebooks/thinkpad/t-series/workstation.ht...

Only Novell Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 is supported. The ThinkPad T60p Mobile Workstation does not come preloaded with SUSE Linux. Users must obtain SUSE Linux licenses from Novell. The ThinkPad T60p comes with DOS entitlement only and ships with a blank hard disk drive. SUSE Linux OS will be supported by Novell, while Lenovo will support Hardware, ThinkVantage Technologies, and drivers.

Reply Score: 1

Also aviable online
by piquadrat on Wed 16th Aug 2006 10:58 UTC
piquadrat
Member since:
2005-11-26

All the tools and drivers are aviable online. I only installed the "ThinkPad Configuration" yet, on a T60 and openSUSE 10.1. Works great. Thank you, Lenovo, IBM and Novell, for making this great machine even a little better!

http://www-307.ibm.com/pc/support/site.wss/product.do?subcategoryin...

Edited 2006-08-16 10:58

Reply Score: 2

Doubts about HW peripherals will also work
by rakamaka on Wed 16th Aug 2006 13:35 UTC
rakamaka
Member since:
2005-08-12

I use debian and in past used knoppix, ubuntu, PCLOS, kanotix
------------------------------------------------
Well it comes with preinstalled SUSE so I hope
wireless works
video works
sound(alsa) works
BIG DOUBTS
Will it work with my printer?
Will it work with my scanner?
Will it work with my webcam?
Will it work with my dialup service?
Will it play DVD and MP3?
How do i do video conferencing?
How do i play games on it?
These are doubts of average joe before purchasing linux preinstalled laptop...

Joe is sure that preinstalled XP laptop(which cost less than linux preinstalled and have better config) will 100% work with any of the HW peripherals either old or new..

Linux devels, pleaaase make Joe convinced before he spends hundereds and buy this new toy.....

Edited 2006-08-16 13:47

Reply Score: 0

hobgoblin Member since:
2005-07-06

windows will 100% work with new and old hardware?

depends on what you define as old hardware.

if it to old, there will be no xp driver out there as it was made at the time of win9x, and went out of production before xp came around. good luck finding a driver.

about the only hardware/software combo you can say works 100% out of the box is a mac. and thats because its all made in-house at apple. and then only for apple hardware. bring in third party items and you may yet experience missing or flawed drivers.

its just that windows have become the de-facto os on most x86 computers out there. and therefor the hardware makers make sure that there is a driver available when they ship their product.

in the end, hardware is something the linux devs can do little about except get hold of a version of it after it have shipped and try to reversengineer a driver for it. that is unless the company making said hardware release the info needed to write a driver.

its the good old chicken and egg thing that any underdog will run into, i dont get support because im small, and i cant get bigger because i dont have support.

Reply Score: 1