The Mozilla team has more or less accepted Microsoft's help in working on Firefox for Windows Vista. Besides the fact that the two parties are already working together, Mike Beltzner, Mozilla developer, has accepted Microsoft's invitation, saying: "Yes, we'd definitely be interested in getting some 1:1 support." Note Sam Ramji's good sense of humour: "I sent this invitation to staff@mozillaNOSPAM.org as well, but in case their
spam filters are set to block @microsoft.com email addresses, I'm
posting here."
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Exactly - the last thing Microsoft wants at this point is to release a new version of the OS, with a new version of IE, and have all the competition playing "catchup" because IE uses some new "secret sauce" in Vista that nobody else has access to.
If an OS offers a feature/API that can help the software run better, I don't see any problem with that software making use of the feature/API. Granted, Firefox BETTER work just fine with older versions of Windows also or there will be some seriously pissed off people.
As pointed out in the other thread, Windows-users make up the majority of Firefox users. Therefore making the Firefox experience better on Windows cannot be a bad strategy for Mozilla.
Member since:2005-07-06
Or maybe MS just wants to make sure Firefox works on Vista so it won't get crucified by open source supporters (with traditional media picking it up later) if it doesn't. That would be pretty bad for it's image.
They've already invited Opera, and have found two bugs related to changes in Vista; Microsoft works with ALL companies, including rivals to ensure that software works reliably on their new operating system. Its in their best interest to ensure things run smoothly as to encourage people to fork over the cash for the upgrade.
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2005-11-10
Look at the distrust going on here. Mozilla's code is still Mozilla's code.
Vista contains a lot of new features Firefox would benefit from tapping into. (for example: background OS-level RSS checking). Getting Microsoft's support will only make a better integrated Firefox, and for me, good OS integration is oh so very important to being happy with an app. (e.g. why I prefer to use Office:Mac over OOo despite the price difference)
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2005-10-07
>Enemy of my Enemy is my friend.....
>i would bring a team a lawyers just incase.
>Garrrr matee, it's time to rape n' pillage!
Even though I'm not a huge fan of firefox, I certainly don't have any problem with people using it. However I'm glad to see that its developers have much more common sense (working with MS to better their product) than their fanboys who seem to attach a religous idolarity to web browsers.
Member since:2005-07-22
"Even though I'm not a huge fan of firefox, I certainly don't have any problem with people using it. However I'm glad to see that its developers have much more common sense (working with MS to better their product) than their fanboys who seem to attach a religous idolarity to web browsers."
Work with MS to make a better product? Are you serious? If you want a better product just stay at home programming it. That's how open source software works. And exactly how MS would help them make a better browser? They made a crap out of IE.
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2005-07-07
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2006-01-16
As Firefox already runs very well on Vista, I think Microsoft wants to get the FF developers on their side.
Showing off all the new cool features of Vista they could incorporate. Hoping Firefox could become a browser working differently/better on Vista so people switch to it...
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Well, it's true that every application, even if heavily crossplatform, should use specific OS features as far as it makes sense.
The main problem would be, and I think this is what MS wants, if projects like Firefox would start to do it "the Windows way", for example using the new display engine for rendering. Or would not try to implement certain things, because they are found in Vista (but missing in other OSes).
In this case, it would be better to stick on crossplatform librarys like cairo for rendering and hope these will use the appropriate engine on the specific platform.
I'm sorry I failed to clearly say what I ment to in my first post. In the end, it's just Microsoft has a reputation for duplicating every existing standard with something else only available for windows; and it would be sad if projects like Mozilla could be won by Microsoft to jump onto this train. Instead, as everyone else, Microsoft should be forced to properly support the existing standard.
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2005-11-16
Does this just mean help in running in Vista,
or, will there be any effort AT ALL to get Asp.Net to work with Mozilla. And will that mean kiss up's at Mono will also have to break down and support an open-source browser?
Anyway, it's a good move for Microsoft, kind of like what a professional organization would do...
Member since:
2005-07-06
At least now the Firefox devs can see what is underneath Vista to make their applications work better. I'd imagine using a few of the APIs in Vista will be pretty valuable to them. Its not going to hurt them to see what Microsoft is offering to them.
To those of you who think they shouldn't do this as its a deal with the devil, I'm pretty sure the FF developers know enough to read through any NDAs or contracts they may have to sign and will be able to spot any clauses which may hinder their ability to code for the Mozilla Corp. I think a lot of you are worrying over nothing.
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PR? Considering that 98% of the world's computer users will never even know about this meeting (and even if they did would they actually care?) one can hardly say this is a PR move.
What's wrong with posting the invite online? I thought that was a common way to share information within the OSS camp.
Member since:2005-10-13
But it is getting lots of attention in certain circles - and it is good PR for MS there. Since these more technically minded people are often the ones who try out new technologies first and review them, any goodwill generated with them can have a small trickle down effect. At the very least it has stopped these people from constantly complaining about endless delays and features being dropped from Vista.
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2006-06-22
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2006-05-24
I certainly hope that open source programming is about more than just myopically "staying home" to yourself and that it actually involves, discussion, curiosity and working with others to find the best way to do something. Thankfully the Mozilla Dev team seems to agree.
In fact, just "staying home" and deriding input from competitors (or allies) sounds like what huge companies that believe they don't need outsider's expertise or advice do.
Edited 2006-08-23 21:42
Member since:
2006-03-17
I dont know what all the fuss is about, im not an MS fanboy or indeed a user of Windows as an OS through choice but im sure the FF guys are pretty standup and wouldnt allow the dark side to corrupt them. If MS invites FF to their shop to talk about, assist with or indeed gain ideas from FF then whats the problem ? If i have to use a browser under Windows for any more than a casual site lookup then id want to do it in FF and id be hoping for seamless usage for the duration ... Nothing wrong with that ... It might even improve IE in the process, now is that a bad thing ?
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I normally don't don a Tin Foil Hat, but the more I've thought about this the more skeptical I become that this is a real request.
- While it is indeed humorous to say something like "I sent this invitation to staff@mozillaNOSPAM.org as well, but in case their spam filters are set to block @microsoft.com email addresses, I'm posting here." It's not very professional. I'm also pretty sure that MS knows how to contact Mozilla in a more formal manner.
- The grammar in the message is terrible, if he's a director then no doubt he has folks who work for him that would've proofread the request.
- There is no mention of this on either A) his personal blog (http://samus.typepad.com/what/) or B) port25.
- Area code 510 comes back as Oakland. Venturing on to the MS.com careers page doesn't list Oakland as an option for employment. From what I've gathered the MS OSS Lab is located in Redmond.
I think it's bogus and the trick is on us (and Mozilla).
Member since:2005-07-06
From what I've seen of past MS communications online they seldom use an overly formal or corporate tone, and it's not unusual for an employee to post to an online forum.
RE: the 510 area code, Ramji went to UCSD, so it's probably his personal cell phone number.
Sorry if I missed any implied sarcasm.
Edited 2006-08-24 03:03
Member since:
2005-12-18
There is nothing wrong with mozilla team visiting the redmond campus. But they should guard themselves from giving out any secrets regarding firefox ;-) at the same time try and find out the secrets behind what makes internet explorer a lousy web browser, knowing which they can avoid making the same mistakes in firefox.
Member since:2005-07-06
"But they should guard themselves from giving out any secrets regarding firefox"
What's so secret about it? It's open source, anyone can crack open the code and learn about these "secrets."
What MS could use to learn about is the "secret" of FF's success, and how they got to this point in such a short amount of time.
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Yes about 7 years (since it was open sourced at least). IE has been in development for almost twice that long.
FF v1 was released just under 2 years ago and it's already taken away huge market share from IE which is what I meant...when FF went v1 it went from a "hobby" browser to a real one, and it's remarkable how popular it's become. But it wouldn't have gotten their w/o Windows (unfortunately).
Member since:2006-07-04
It's well known why IE is "a lousy web browser"; MS sat on it for 5 years. People tend to forget that when IE6 was released it was the best browser available (Opera might also make the claim). It had the best CSS support (CSS was new at the time). But MS, not having in any competition, sat on it. IE didn't keep up with the evolving CSS standards.
So all FF has to do to not fall into that same trap is to keep developing it.
If you're referring to security problems, I've yet to see evidence that FF is more secure. It gets security updates very frequently nowadays. FF should take lessons from Opera on that score.
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I think there is a simple reason why microsoft is doing this. Everybody knows that Firefox is really popular browser that is able to run on windows 95/98/nt/me/2000/xp. Microsoft is going to release Vista and he wants people to upgrade to Vista. I bet many people will hesitate to upgrade and if in addition they will know that Firefox has some troubles running on Vista they will definitely not consider this. IE on windows has really bad reputation. And if people will know that Firefox runs great on Vista they will upgrade, use Firefox and many of them take a look at new IE and maybe will switch to it. That's it I guess.
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In the Netscape days, Netscape bothered Microsoft. Does Mozilla Firefox bother Microsoft now? I guess the major threats to Microsoft now are Linux and OpenOffice, because they threat what MS does make money with: their OS and their Office package.
So will we be expecting a similar invitation to OpenOffice developers to make OpenOffice run smoothly (and fast please 
) on MS's Windows Vista?
I suppose that's a retorical question.
Member since:
2006-05-19
What does each side stand to gain?
FF may learn a few things to make it work better/faster or offer more features for Vista. It makes sense.
MS is inviting a competitor that is eroding it's market share. Do they really want FF to be even better and take more market share away from them? The idea of helping MS find bugs doesn't make sense. That people would take the trouble to install FF then switch to IE doesn't hold water either. I don't claim to understand the reasoning, but MS doesn't do anything that is not in their best interest.
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Just in case, let me begin that I am a Mac OS user.
But really, what's the fuss? So an OS developer wants to make sure a damn popular and quite influential software runs like a charm in their new release. Shocking!
IMHO it's quite the most intelligent (and pretty obvious) thing to do.
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2005-12-09
