Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:05 UTC, submitted by jcpinto
Linspire Starting today, Linspire does not only offer a free OS, but also its CNR Basic service. " Linspire, Inc., developer of the commercial desktop Linux operating system of the same name and Freespire, the free community desktop Linux operating system, announced the immediate change in pricing for its popular CNR Service from an annual subscription fee based offering to a completely free service." CEO Carmony said: "We're thrilled to now be in a position to offer this excellent service to desktop Linux users absolutely free. CNR really makes using desktop Linux easy, and we want everyone to have access to this quality service."
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Pfff....
by maxx_730 on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:18 UTC
maxx_730
Member since:
2005-12-14

So this was the big announcement (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Main_Page) they got everyone all hyped up about? What a disappointment. CNR really isnt any better then gnome-app-install.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Pfff....
by twenex on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:27 UTC in reply to "Pfff...."
RE[2]: Pfff....
by jcpinto on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
jcpinto Member since:
2006-08-30

Actually, apt-get is just a command line tool and synaptic a front-end for that. While apt-get and synaptic are great tools, so is CNR and by being free it's another choice for new (or not so new) linux users. I think choice is always good.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Pfff....
by w00dst0ck on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:47 UTC in reply to "Pfff...."
w00dst0ck Member since:
2006-02-01

Actually, i think its just another front end to apt-get... since Linspire is based on Debian... if i remember correctly...

That was something that always bothered me, was how they tried to market CNR as something on Linspire was able of doing... almost as if they invented the easy to install package manager (dpkg)

Oh well...

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pfff....
by KevinCarmony on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:25 UTC in reply to "Pfff...."
KevinCarmony Member since:
2006-07-17

So this was the big announcement (http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Main_Page) they got everyone all hyped up about? What a disappointment.

This IS big news to Freespire users. I didn't make the post you were referring to anywhere but on the Freespire site. I certainly don't expect everyone to think this is big news, but to our users it's huge. They can now offer an easy-to-use, turn-key desktop Linux to their non-technical friends at no cost. We think that's a good thing.

CNR really isnt any better then gnome-app-install.

I have to wonder if you've ever even tried it. CNR does a lot of things no other installation system does.

http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/CNR_Warehouse#How_is_CNR_differ...

Linspire's marketing hype is even worse than Ubuntu's.

If you find a strong, excited, supportive community and lots of users "marketing hype," then I guess you're write about Ubuntu. Just sounds like someone is jealous of them for their success to me. I haven't seen much marketing hype from Ubuntu, just solid work, leading to a lot of users and support.

first signs of a company in trouble is when they start making everything they used to charge for, free.

Yea, it really has been killing Google, MySpace and Craigslist. =)

Linspire is more successful that it's ever been. We had been losing about $10M annually, but that number has now dropped to nearly zero, approaching break even at anytime.

Actually, i think its just another front end to apt-get... since Linspire is based on Debian... if i remember correctly...

Far from it... http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/CNR_Warehouse#How_is_CNR_differ...

The day my mother starts using Synaptic or apt-get is the day I'll start saying they're the same. =)

I do feel that they have a right to have their own package manager. I think it was a 'recreate the wheel' instead of just improving but whats done is done and let us hope in the future they will consider other options.

We do not have our own package manager. We use .deb, just like apt. What we have is a different way of serving those deb's up. CNR is open sourced, so I'd say that IS improving on an existing system.

Kudos, Kevin Carmony, and the rest of you guys that make Linux accessible to those people who don't have a guru handy to help them!

Thank you.

I've NEVER had a person sit down with me, let me demonstrate Linspire, Freespire, CNR, explain our OEM strategy, etc., and them not walk away feeling very good about what we're doing. Unfortunately, not everyone takes the time to look beyond the FUD. As CEO I do what I can, even posting in forums like OSNew. =)

Kevin Carmony
CEO, Linspire, Inc.

Edited 2006-08-30 18:40

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Pfff....
by maxx_730 on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:52 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
maxx_730 Member since:
2005-12-14

This is what you claimed on your website:
Linspire promised a HUGE announcement this week that will affect the Freespire project significantly. This announcement is bigger than anything we have ever done to date, or perhaps will do for some time to come. This news is significant not just to the Freespire project, but we believe, to the advancement of desktop Linux in general. Visit our forum for the big news and to discuss it with others.
I'm sorry, but i (and i can imagine many others) just don't see the release CNR as OSS as big as you've suggested in your announcement, and yes iīve tried it. I also don't like about this that you've posted this mysteriously on the freespire wiki and then left forum users figure out what it was. Thats what i call (excuse the language) attention whoring. Also why do you keep comparing CNR to Synaptic? You KNOW Synaptic is one of the less simple frontends to apt-get and you KNOW that there are much better frontends like for example gnome-app-install.

Ps: dont get me wrong though, i liked that you opensourced CNR (one less piece of proprietary softwarte in the world ;) ), and i like that Linspire contributes back a lot to the OSS community, i just dont like how this announcement was IMO overhyped.

Edited 2006-08-30 18:56

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Pfff....
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:02 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

"We do not have our own package manager. We use .deb, just like apt. What we have is a different way of serving those deb's up. CNR is open sourced, so I'd say that IS improving on an existing system. "

.deb is a package format

I consider CNR to be a package manager, similar to other software we consider package managers. Nothing of what I said was negative just a hope that you guys look to improve a project instead of starting a new one.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[3]: Pfff....
by kernelpanicked on Thu 31st Aug 2006 00:14 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Pfff...."
RE[3]: Pfff....
by kernelpanicked on Thu 31st Aug 2006 00:55 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Pfff...."
kernelpanicked Member since:
2006-02-01

Nice to see the mod trolls are still with us.

Reply Score: 1

Eh, no.
by Moochman on Thu 31st Aug 2006 09:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Pfff...."
Moochman Member since:
2005-07-06

No, CNR is based on apt-get, so it's actually NOT it's own package manager, it's a front-end, like Synaptic. Again, neither Synaptic nor CNR is its own package manager, they're both based on APT. However, CNR makes the selection of packages much more user friendly by fully describing software, including screenshots, and recommending it--a bit like what you find for Windows software on Download.com, but integrated into the OS. That makes it a lot easier for newbie Linux users than any other Linux software-distribution solutions (save Xandros' still non-free solution or the downloading of Autopackages from a project's website).

You can stop twitching now.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Eh, no.
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 14:43 UTC in reply to "Eh, no."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

No the reason linspire does not want to call it a 'package manager' is because it would be too linux like. They have to call it a 'softare delivery service' so they can be different and better than all those just offering a 'package manager'. That is how they can say it is better than any package manager out there is because it is a software delivery service.

Too funny....

Flock is based on firefox is based on mozilla - does that mean that the only browser is mozilla?

Knoppix is based on debian - does that mean knoppix isn't a distro?

I agree it is a truly a front end. So are a lot of things and we still call them package managers. That is the purpose of that front end of that GUI is to assist you in managing packages.

What are a lot of media players in linux - frontends for gstreamer plugins and various libraries and so forth.

I wasn't the one twitching but I am now.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Pfff....
by h3rman on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
h3rman Member since:
2006-08-09

Interesting to see the Linspire CEO post here.
Now that I have the chance, could I take this opportunity to ask you something?
I have the impression that Linspire is a lot bigger in North America than it is here in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong).
Do you think someday you might be selling complete systems in Europe? It might take a little investing in PR, but I definitely think people are ready for it. Macs are getting more popular, and people start realising there doesn't have to be an OS monopoly on PCs.

Why don't you launch, say, a bright yellow, XGL/Compiz ready Linspire laptop or something, instead of the eternal greyish boredom out there? And instead of the over-2500 dollars Lenovo SLED laptop (Linux is for the rich?). People are looking for something different, and most hardware makers are afraid to offer it to them. I'll be spreading the word here in Rotterdam for you for free. And I even use Gnome. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Pfff....
by polarbear on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Pfff...."
polarbear Member since:
2006-06-13

>I have the impression that Linspire is a lot bigger in North America than it is here in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong).
>Do you think someday you might be selling complete systems in Europe?

Over the last month here in Sweden, Linspire PCs have started to appear at the big retailers such as PCCity and Elgiganten. Those are low price (about $340) Medion computers. They are marketed as "perfect for students".

http://www.elgiganten.se/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/store-elgiga...

I guess those might be coming to you in Holland soon too.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Pfff....
by h3rman on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Pfff...."
h3rman Member since:
2006-08-09

Over the last month here in Sweden, Linspire PCs have started to appear at the big retailers such as PCCity and Elgiganten. Those are low price (about $340) Medion computers. They are marketed as "perfect for students".
I always knew progress first happens in Scandinavia. ;)
Medion is sold online, and by the Aldi chain here in Holland, Germany, Belgium. Unfortunately, that's a supermarket, selling PCs and maybe even laptops only at radom times, giving Medion a B-brand reputation. These PCs have very noisy fans for example. Haven't seen any Linux on it yet.

Linux + its best distros are generally quality products, that should not be marketed as a cheap alternative to that other OS. It should be marketed as a quality OS for a good price; if it's on retail hardware, it should not be on hot noisy Celerons or something, and priced nicely under Apple, but never dumped Acer style.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Pfff....
by w00dst0ck on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
w00dst0ck Member since:
2006-02-01

I stand corrected my good sir.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Pfff....
by HappyGod on Thu 31st Aug 2006 01:23 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
HappyGod Member since:
2005-10-19

First let me say that it's great to see people such as yourself posting on OSNews - good stuff.

Now, I was wondering how you are going to continue to provide the proprietary stuff (like DVD, MP3 Players) on CNR now that you are no longer charging for it?

Edited 2006-08-31 01:24

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Pfff....
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 01:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Pfff...."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

By charging for the proprietary stuff and also offering the GOLD CNR package for $50 a year.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Pfff....
by ThrowAway on Thu 31st Aug 2006 13:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Pfff...."
ThrowAway Member since:
2006-08-31

"you're write about Ubuntu"

right or correct but not "write"

using text to speech software?

(Moderators go ahead and delete this comment if he corrects his spelling)

Reply Score: 1

RE: Pfff....
by Sabon on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:12 UTC in reply to "Pfff...."
Sabon Member since:
2005-07-06

You've obviously never used CNR.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Pfff....
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:19 UTC in reply to "Pfff...."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

I am sure they will respond with plenty of heat...I will take another route and simply say this. CNR may not be better, but it could be another choice for those that want it. It is a big announcement for numerous reasons - from linspire finally doing what I consider to be the "right" thing, to something that has for years costed money and is now free, to this becoming a open source program. All of those are fairly remarkable. For those that are not interested then of course it isn't as important but that would be normal in any situation.

It does offer advantages to gnome-app-install as well as IMO some disadvantages. Either way it is as much news as other things we discuss. ;)

Reply Score: 3

Linspire is doing a good job
by sbergman27 on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:21 UTC
sbergman27
Member since:
2005-07-24

I don't use Linspire. I happen to dislike KDE.

But... Linspire is making a few waves, these days. And I must say, they are *good* waves.

Kudos, Kevin Carmony, and the rest of you guys that make Linux accessible to those people who don't have a guru handy to help them!

(Even if you don't use Gnome to do it :-P)

Reply Score: 5

so how are they going to make money?
by stephanem on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:45 UTC
stephanem
Member since:
2006-01-11

first signs of a company in trouble is when they start making everything they used to charge for, free.

Reply Score: 4

Ronald Vos Member since:
2005-07-06

To answer your question RTFA.

Reply Score: 1

Guys
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 17:59 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

I agree with everything that is said...I even have a few extra criticisms I could leverage but I also think it is only fair to give credit where credit is due. In this case, *spire has made taken some really good steps and I applaud them for it. Still plenty of steps to go but here is hoping that they continue.

Reply Score: 1

oh
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:01 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

And while I am not a big fan of CNR since apt/synaptic and so forth is just fine with me I do feel that they have a right to have their own package manager. I think it was a 'recreate the wheel' instead of just improving but whats done is done and let us hope in the future they will consider other options. I am sure if we applaud the steps they take they will be inclined to take more.

Reply Score: 1

v A good start, I guess...
by Gullible Jones on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:38 UTC
RE: A good start, I guess...
by KevinCarmony on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:42 UTC in reply to "A good start, I guess..."
KevinCarmony Member since:
2006-07-17

Now if they would just get rid of the desktop-as-root-by-default garbage, I might start to take this distro somewhat seriously.

Someone needs to get out more. That is some seriously outdated FUD. That went bye bye long ago.

Can someone please get this gentleman some fresh FUD? =)

Kevin

Edited 2006-08-30 18:43

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: A good start, I guess...
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:09 UTC in reply to "RE: A good start, I guess..."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Why not just say that freespire has corrected this situation and it is a priority to make sure that users do not run as root by default and that everything works so that no users would need to run as root. Face it, Linspire has had problems in the past with either running as root and/or things not running correctly without being root.

I think the way you handle stuff like this does nothing but detract from *spire in general. In fact, your denial of problems and spiteful responses to anyone bringing up issues is one of the biggest things that makes me dislike linspire and now freespire.

I guess it is also fud that you have old outdated packages in the CNR warehouse? That some of those packages are considered to be security risks by other distros and yet linspire has determined them to not be a issue.

Edited 2006-08-30 19:12

Reply Score: 0

v RE[3]: A good start, I guess...
by Tuishimi on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: A good start, I guess..."
RE[4]: A good start, I guess...
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:28 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: A good start, I guess..."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Well if he didn't then yes I play the card. He calls something fud that I offered a link to the linspire website that specifically indicates it is hard to run as anything but root in linspire. Which would indicate it isn't complete fud and has some merit and basis and I think they should stop trying to sidetrack anyone that brings up problems and just state the issue and how it is being corrected.

They bring a lot of this on themselves is all I am saying and it could easily be corrected yet they let it get the better of them. Adding flames to the flame just makes the flames worse and more fun at the same time! ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: A good start, I guess...
by Tuishimi on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:43 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: A good start, I guess..."
Tuishimi Member since:
2005-07-06

Ahhh! I see. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: A good start, I guess...
by alcibiades on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:10 UTC in reply to "RE: A good start, I guess..."
alcibiades Member since:
2005-10-12

Kevin, thank you for taking the time to reply. Its wise, and its generous too.

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: A good start, I guess...
by John Blink on Wed 30th Aug 2006 21:46 UTC in reply to "RE: A good start, I guess..."
John Blink Member since:
2005-10-11

I would. But bandwidth costs time and money. :b

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: A good start, I guess...
by egon_spengler on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:19 UTC in reply to "RE: A good start, I guess..."
egon_spengler Member since:
2005-11-20

Uh, yeah, RIIIIGGHT. In Linspire, in all versions up to and including the new wonderweapon V2 release, if the user does NOT take any action to create a user, WHAT ARE they running as? Umm, ROOT maybe? Let's see, no other action taken (default), account used (root), sounds like desktop-as-root-by-default to me. Now, Freespire did a marvelous Ubuntu-take on the situation, and makes the first user created an entry in the sudoers file to allow for system maintenance, and the holdovers from Linspire need to be tweaked a bit to get around the bumps.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: A good start, I guess...
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: A good start, I guess..."
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

HEY EGON! ;)
And would a new user KNOW they needed to create a user account in linspire. Nope! So while one could argue semantics, in linspire a new user will end up running as root.

Also the link I posted that a user will be unable to use their scanner unless they are root.

It is a shame that the linspire users want nothing more than to turn freespire back into the run-as-root distro and now they cite that the reason is becasue it is for advanced users.

Shameful really!

Edited 2006-08-30 22:35

Reply Score: 2

Anonymous Penguin Member since:
2005-07-06

"Can someone please get this gentleman some fresh FUD?"

I couldn't agree more. To everybody who feels like him, take a look at kdmrc:

http://docs.kde.org/stable/en/kdebase/kdm/kdm-files.html

Quote:

[AllowRootLogin

If disabled, do not allow root (and any other user with UID = 0) to log in directly.

The default is “true”.]

Reply Score: 1

egon_spengler Member since:
2005-11-20

Linspire and Freespire do not currently use kdm, they use something called ldm for Linspire Display Manager, I would think. So, KDMRC entries are non-germane, but ldm gleefully allowing root account login would be.

Reply Score: 2

Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

The default is not used in Linspire. And yes, what you call "FUD" is true. Freespire has gotten rid of desktop-as-root policy, and I congratulate them for that, but Linspire hasn't and that is stupid in the extreme.

Something you probably know already: most malicious software on *nix requires root priveleges to hijack your system. If you are running everything as root, the only advantage left to running Linux is that there's less malware made for it - running the desktop as root is a hazard. "It's a more secure operating system" is not an excuse to use extremely insecure default policies.

And for all you penguin-heads out there: I am not bashing your beloved operating system; I'm a fan of it myself. The people I am bashing are the ones who want to make it like Windows - too damned much like Windows.

Reply Score: 1

still crippled for two reasons
by roger64 on Thu 31st Aug 2006 06:41 UTC in reply to "RE: A good start, I guess..."
roger64 Member since:
2006-08-15

- because CNR will only be available to Freespire users later in the year and not NOW . They will need to wait for the OSS version of CNR.

- because even when this future -free- CNR will be available, only people using CNR gold service (50 dollars a year) will receive software update notifications and free OS updates.

Still crippled, dear.

Reply Score: 1

RE: still crippled for two reasons
by jcpinto on Thu 31st Aug 2006 16:30 UTC in reply to "still crippled for two reasons"
jcpinto Member since:
2006-08-30

- because CNR will only be available to Freespire users later in the year and not NOW . They will need to wait for the OSS version of CNR.

CNR will be Free in late this year. It's free (as in beer) now.

- because even when this future -free- CNR will be available, only people using CNR gold service (50 dollars a year) will receive software update notifications and free OS updates.

Software updates in Freespire doesn't require CNR Gold. Not even CNR... apt is enough just like in any other debian like. However, besides apt you have the choice of CNR just like in Ubuntu you have the choice of update manager!

Edited 2006-08-31 16:32

Reply Score: 1

RE: A good start, I guess...
by jcpinto on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:00 UTC in reply to "A good start, I guess..."
jcpinto Member since:
2006-08-30

Not only it's not the default, as you need to activate root if you want it ;)

http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/Creating_a_Root_Login_Account

Reply Score: 3

Commercial Software
by Hands on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:42 UTC
Hands
Member since:
2005-06-30

I think that this move is about the only step that Linspire needed to take in order for me to really appreciate CNR. I realize that there are a lot of other ways for people to install software for free with a GUI interface (because I generally run other distros that don't have CNR), but Linspire is the only distro that I've seen which has given its users the option of purchasing and installing commercial software through the same interface that they get the free software through.

As an example: I have purchased and installed StarOffice on various Linux systems with mixed results. Most of the time it works very well, but sometimes it just gets borked because it wasn't made to be installed by the package management system. CNR pretty much guarantees that I wouldn't have that problem.

For those who have Linspire, I do have a question about installing commercial software when you already have a valid license. I know that Linspire keeps track of CNR purchases and installation history to help people if they ever need to change their system. Is there a way for a person to verify a valid license with the CNR system so that they can use CNR to install commercial software without needing to purchase an additional license?

Reply Score: 2

Good News
by seakryan on Wed 30th Aug 2006 18:51 UTC
seakryan
Member since:
2006-07-16

Great News - I've used and paid for CNR for several years (Up until I became a Lifer). Besides Linspire, I use Debian and PCLinuxOS. Many of my friends have put off trying Linspire and even Freespire due to the fact that they did not want to pay for CNR. Freespire came along and they started to warm up. Now that CNR Basic will be free to all, I know they will want to at least give it a try. If they want a paid for application they can still pay for it - although they won't get the deep discounts offered to Gold Members. They also won't get free OS upgrades such as when Linspire 6 is released. But they will be able to access CNR for free which is really all they care about. Freespire will be free to use so that is a win win situation.

I've not always been a fan of CNR. Growing pains are not always pleasant, but I do appreciate the advantages of using it. CNR is improving with each release and with the upcoming Open Sourced CNR 7 I'm sure I'll see more improvements. Would I use apt over CNR? Yes - Depends upon my mood... LOL sometimes I like to feel a bit geeky and use apt. I'd say the majority of the time I use CNR.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Good News
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:28 UTC in reply to "Good News"
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

"They also won't get free OS upgrades such as when Linspire 6 is released"

They won't get free LINSPIRE OS upgrade versions but since freespire is free of charge they can certainly have the latest and greatest freespire at no charge.

Reply Score: 1

here
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:13 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

Here is but one example of how easy it is for a newbie to run as anything BUT root in linspire...

http://help.linspire.com/cgi-bin/linspire.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.p...

So is this more FUD?

Reply Score: 2

RE: here
by kernelpanicked on Thu 31st Aug 2006 00:24 UTC in reply to "here"
kernelpanicked Member since:
2006-02-01

I would say since the application used to change the file is freakin kwrite there's at least a 75%* chance that user is logged in as root.



*I say 75% because there is a possibility that the user ran 'sudo kwrite', but then wouldn't they just run 'sudoedit /etc/fstab' if they were already at the terminal?

Reply Score: 1

OSS?
by seakryan on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:16 UTC
seakryan
Member since:
2006-07-16

The BIG announcement was not that CNR was oss... Although that is happening. The big announcement is that for the basic usage of CNR there is no longer a fee. It used to be $20 a year. Now it is free.

Reply Score: 2

Great news!
by DeadFishMan on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:17 UTC
DeadFishMan
Member since:
2006-01-09

I donīt know why you guys are so negative about this distro. Linspire and now Freespire are perhaps among the most easy to use distros in the world and now that CNR is free, Iīm tempted to give it a try. I donīt care if it is not pure OSS or not: it is Debian based and they treat KDE as a first class citizen. Thatīs enough to me.

I still donīt see how you expect to profit by doing this, Kevin, as most people surely will avoid to buy the CNR Gold stuff unless they really have to, but I congratulate you guys anyway. This is a bold move that certainly will benefit your userbase, therefore increasing potential buyers of add-ons available on CNR on the near future.

Reply Score: 3

Updated software
by seakryan on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:25 UTC
seakryan
Member since:
2006-07-16

Now here is where Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS shine. Their repositories are really up to date.

I have one hard drive with Xandros on it... Those apps are pretty outdated!

Even with Debian - unless you point to Etch you are going to be stuck with older packages.

Linspire packages are sometimes old - but in general - they work! Sometimes the newer packages won't work with the current setup. That is not a unique problem.

Freespire will be a lot easier to play with. When 1.1 comes out in a couple months I would hope that people will be able to access newer packages.

As far as I am concerned, apt-get is awesome. What you can do with it is powerful. But I also think CNR is an awesome tool.

Reply Score: 1

revenue
by seakryan on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:36 UTC
seakryan
Member since:
2006-07-16

"I still donīt see how you expect to profit by doing this, Kevin, as most people surely will avoid to buy the CNR Gold stuff unless they really have to, but I congratulate you guys anyway. This is a bold move that certainly will benefit your userbase, therefore increasing potential buyers of add-ons available on CNR on the near future."


One way they will make money is by selling Click-n-Buy programs. The legal DVD player is not free. Gold members get a decent price for it, but non Gold members will have to pay a chunk. That is not Linspire fault - blame Cyberlink (PowerDVD) for that one. There are a lot of great commercial products in CNR that cost money. For some people it won't be worth joining to get the discount for the one product they want. For other's it will be.

For Linspire users the big jolt will come when Linspire 6 is released and they cannot download it. They will then realize that they have to be a Gold Member to have access to the newer version. There is nothing new in this model. But it will add incentive to join as a Gold Member, provided Linspire can make it worth it by speeding up their release cycle.

They might be losing some $20 a year revenue, but the amount of new people who come in and decide to upgrade to Gold or buy a product in CNR will more than make up for that.

Reply Score: 2

I think that this is excellent news ...
by Tuishimi on Wed 30th Aug 2006 19:50 UTC
Tuishimi
Member since:
2005-07-06

...and is something most critics of Linspire have been whining and complaining about for ages "you have to PAY to use CNR! How LAME!"

Well now it is free and lo and behold... the same people are still out whining and complaining. This IS big news - that's $45 year or so (I forget the actual cost) saved for those who actually pay for Linspire and the CNR for ease-of-use and insurance of compatibility with the OS.

Honestly, no one is ever satisfied around here with ANYTHING positive that happens. God could appear tomorrow, say "All is forgiven, come home to heaven!" and someone would bitch that "well why didn't he do that sooner" or "why isn't there any porn on HTV?"

Criminy.

And I can guess someone will answer me with "well if you don't like to hear other people's opinions don't read the thread" or some such crapola.

Reply Score: 5

Maybe it's time to give them a break
by richard on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:04 UTC
richard
Member since:
2006-08-30

I've never really understood the amount of abuse that *spire attracts. They bring out a distro, commit a few minor sins that other distros have done previously (YAST wasn't always open source, for example) and somehow receive more bile than all other Linux distributions put together. Even when they make a great announcement like this! They contribute to lots of nice open source projects. It can only be snobbery because they are trying to appeal to the "non-nerds". Stop being so elitist! It's not cool. It's not even geek-cool. It's just poo.

Reply Score: 5

JeffS Member since:
2005-07-12

I agree 1000%

The "elitist" users will automatically hate anything that includes proprietary codecs/drivers/programs, and/or hate anything that is easy for the non-geek.

The way I look at it, Linspire is doing all the right things to bring Linux to the masses - the non hobbyist/programmer/professional/sysadmin/geek - by making an extremely easy distro, that works "out of the box" with most hardware, and includes, by user choice (they offer a totally OSS version), all the needed proprietary codecs/drivers/etc.

Plus, I love apt-get, and Synaptic. But, IMHO, CNR exceeds those in ease of use - an easy to browse interface with icons and descriptions of programs, then just one click and the app is intalled and added to a menu, and dependencies resolved. This goes beyond regular apt-get or Synaptic. It's just the sort of thing that would make a Mac or Windows or totally non technical user feel right at home. This is a good thing. Regular apt-get or Synaptic are great, and they're close, but quite as easy as CNR.

And now that Linspire has Freespire, with a free CNR, and the choice of using a totally OSS version (to appease the purists), there is really nothing to complain about with *spire.

And just to add to the usual cliche - I have my 72 yr old Mom using a Linspire PC I helped her get from Fry's. She's using it with the greatest of ease, and it's been easier to her then Windows ever was.

And, even though I'm a programmer by profession and I'm totally at ease with the *nix command line, I greatly prefer ease of use features. I'm a married father of two, and I have little time to spare for fiddling with crap that should work out of the box. *spire, along with some others like PCLinuxOS, Kanotix, Mepis, Ubuntu (to a somewhat lesser extent), and others, deliver the total easy, "out of the box" experience.

Reply Score: 5

Gullible Jones Member since:
2006-05-23

For the sake of the whole internet, I hope that the Ubuntu people beat them to it. CNR may be nice but there is no excuse for such blatantly insecure default settings on a desktop-oriented distro, regardless of the targetted user base - in fact, all the more because of the targetted user base, since the average Linspire user probably doesn't know how to secure their system.

Reply Score: 1

wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

I've never really understood the amount of abuse that *spire attracts.

It's the name they started with, Lindows. Deep down, the hardcore Linux fans never forgave and never forgot their betrayal. I mean, emulate a Microsoft brand in order to get people to notice them? That's so... dark side of the force, dude! Seriously uncool. ;)

Reply Score: 1

Yeah
by Sodapop on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:05 UTC
Sodapop
Member since:
2005-07-06

I can't really see the problem either. In my opinion, anything that makes Linux easier to use and gets it more out front so people are more aware of this great OS is a plus to me.

Personally, I think it's the hardcore group who are scared of changes that make Linux more "user friendly" that are bashing these new directions Linux as an OS is taking.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Yeah
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:29 UTC in reply to "Yeah"
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

no no no not bashing new directions - nobody in linux is scared of changes either but BAD directions and BAD changes are just that....BAD! ;)

Reply Score: 0

I'd like to try it...
by jlacroix on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:13 UTC
jlacroix
Member since:
2006-08-30

Hello everyone, I would like to try out Freespire but would only be able to do so by running it as a live cd.

Specs:
Ram: 512MB
Video: 256MB Nvidia
Processor: 1.00ghz AMD

X will not start with the latest cd. I was able to get one of the test versions running by deleting the "pci" line in the xorg.conf file but that won't work with the newest one. The previous test release that worked was extremely slow, not sure what was going on. This same computer could run Linspire 5 just fine though.

Reply Score: 1

What's Keeping Me From Using It
by jlacroix on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:18 UTC
jlacroix
Member since:
2006-08-30

I shouldn't have hit "submit comment" so soon.

Anyway, I think the only way Freespire would appeal to people like me who like bleeding edge is to have the latest versions of all the core programs.

I am using KDE 3.5.4 and I don't think *Spire uses that yet, it would be hard for me to downgrade from my Ubuntu that has the newest Gnome and KDE to Freespire which does not. I think Freespire should include the absolute latest stable packages of all core elements.

Also, while I may not be well informed, it would probably be much better, and be easier for the developers of Freespire to have the latest packages if they switched to the Ubuntu fork, rather than just plain old Debian. I'm sure that would boost Freespire by making it attractive to Ubuntu users, like me, as well.

Reply Score: 1

Dubbayoo Member since:
2006-02-09

That's just it. They're NOT trying to appeal to "people like you who like bleeding edge programs." New Linux converts will favor stability over bleeding edge.

Reply Score: 1

deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

But stability and up to date is not mutually exclusive. I think most windows users who see me using the cool new XYZ will want the cool new XYZ app and not last years old ABC app. I know my wife HAS to try anything and everything new that she hears about in her chat groups.

Having OLD stuff doesn't appeal to anyone when others are providing newer stuff that is as stable if not moreso.

Edit button is so cool - thanks for the ability.

Edited 2006-08-30 21:52

Reply Score: 1

Kudos to Kevin
by Dubbayoo on Wed 30th Aug 2006 20:39 UTC
Dubbayoo
Member since:
2006-02-09

*spire takes a beating on this site sometimes yet I can't recall an officer of any other for-pay distro come out and hold his feet to the fire here.

Reply Score: 5

both ways
by seakryan on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:03 UTC
seakryan
Member since:
2006-07-16

Yep bandwidth does cost money. For the folks hosting the ISO as well...

Some good points made about stability and up-to-date apps.

Linspire has always tried to aim for stability first. With freespire project growing they might be able to find a good balance there. Don't expect Linspire to ever have the most current KDE or the most recent kernel. They just don't work that way, but my hope as a user is that they will have a faster release cycle in order to keep things a bit closer to the latest and greatest. From what I gather - that is their goal.

Reply Score: 2

All this is sad and suicidal
by Paiter on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:07 UTC
Paiter
Member since:
2006-08-24

The signs are obvious.

Laws of nature cannot be circumvented, no matter how hard we wish they could.

One of the laws, which is the second law of thermodynamics, can be particularized as: "there are no free lunches".

We can make lots of forums to discuss free products, when in fact someone is paying for them. Either the developer itself and his/her family (if he/she still has one) or the tax-payers in certain countries. Finally, some companies pay for it so they can still sell their specific technology. It is just a Trojan horse with a consequence: It won't last.

Then there is the lack of expertise of the "open-source" advocates and coders. Most of the code (not Emacs, but that's it) is poor and sad.

That is why it is given for free, even if the GPL accepts otherwise.

I bought Xandros once, but now I can see how weak they are in the "minor" details such as emails insinuating they are doing great. They are trying to compete without a real product.

Suicide projects such WINE, MONO, GTK's etc show very well the poverty of all this.

Hey: I got a team of 10, lets fetch some people from a poor country (which imagine that this is the way out, instead of trying to find a grant to study abroad) and COPY the product of a multi-billion dollar
company with thousands of Ph.D's.

This will end with tears, of course.

Edited 2006-08-30 22:11

Reply Score: 0

v RE: All this is sad and suicidal
by deanlinkous on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:14 UTC in reply to "All this is sad and suicidal"
RE[2]: All this is sad and suicidal
by Paiter on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:20 UTC in reply to "RE: All this is sad and suicidal"
Paiter Member since:
2006-08-24

We may wish for that (the small and brave against the big and evil) but the reality is not so romantic. Did you ever read a recent paper about data structures? Now, have you compared that with what is coded (FSF has links to a couple of dedicated libraries) by our friends the Open Source believers?
Now compare.

There is NO space for the small and innocent.

Edited 2006-08-30 22:27

Reply Score: 2

deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Dude can you share whatever it is you are smoking....

What product are we copying? How many of those thousands(?) of PHDs are coding?

Why is it given for free - uh it is SHARED that is why.

If this is so sad and suicidal then why werent we crying and dead two years ago? three years ago? five years ago?

How long does linux have to be around before it will become non-suicicdal and non-sad to you?

Edited 2006-08-31 02:22

Reply Score: 0

Paiter Member since:
2006-08-24

There are exceptions of course (I mentioned the only one I know of: Emacs), but "being around" for years doesn't mean the projects are alive and in good health. I mean, many latest versions hardly present new features. Where is the lunch money? Do I get something if I do it?

Yes it is suicidal: how many "distro-men" suffered from health problems due to excessive work? (I know of two) How many quit trying to get something from nothing?
How many sincerely wanted to do something great but bad things happened? (Libranet comes to mind).

Even if you charge something life is very tough, so you can imagine how tough it is if you just offer the code.

Who is going to support you?

Let us imagine that
I start now a project, get a bunch of people
(without a clue) working in it and then, after everyone fails to see the point, we leave it in SourceForge for years. Some guy changes the color of the Icons: new Version! The project is active!

Do you want examples? There are thousands.

Now: lots of code has been around for years. It doesn't matter.

That's what happens.

Reply Score: 2

deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

So as I stated - how long does linux have to be around for you to consider it non-suicidal and non-sad?

Sure projects come and go for numerous reasons. So what?

Libranet DID do something great, how does the leader of the project passing away unexpectedly make anything suicidal.

How is your sourceforge example suicidal or sad. It is perfect! If people are interested and it is the best solution then it likely will do well. If not then it can sit dormant until it is needed, or until someone is interested, or until someone uses it for a piece of another project.

I guess I just do not get your point. I don't understand what you are getting at. My only question is if this is so sad and suicidal shouldn't it be dead already? And not gaining in popularity?

Edited 2006-08-31 03:50

Reply Score: 1

Paiter Member since:
2006-08-24

I won't go further into this subject because it makes people upset. First, the difficulty with Libranet was the ambitious version 3.0 and not Jon's unfortunate death. I do not want to use more names, as I respect them. It is just too much to cope. Have you seen Slackware's changelog, incidently? And he is *just* organizing stuff, not creating, testing, debugging, profiling and analysing new code. Even so, the task is enormous.

Then, I did not comment on SourceForge system but rather on large quantities of semi-dead projects. The projects themselves.

As for "gaining" in popularity, that may be the truth, or not. We must see numbers and analyse them.

Reply Score: 2

deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Just for clarity, I said popularity not usage. The fact there are more user forums, more books, more articles, more distros, more corporate interest and even lawsuits certainly make the case that linux is more popular now than it was five years ago.

If it is too much then nothing forces anyone to do it. The fact that more and more are doing it. That more and more are continuing to do it with so many new additions at least seems to indicate that it is not sad or suicidal.

I don't understand how any hobby can be suicidal unless your hobby is playing russian roulette. ;)

But I assure you I will no longer question whatever points you make, since I already am regretful I have done so this time.

Peace!

Reply Score: 1

They will end up giving CNR for free
by Joe User on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:15 UTC
Joe User
Member since:
2005-06-29

Logic of nature, in the end, CNR will be free.

Reply Score: 1

hmm
by viator on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:15 UTC
viator
Member since:
2005-10-11

so is cnr gpled now? ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE: hmm
by siimo on Thu 31st Aug 2006 07:34 UTC in reply to "hmm"
siimo Member since:
2006-06-22

AFAIK 1.1 version of freespire will have GPL CNR - read it somewhere on their WIKI I think.

Reply Score: 1

Great news!
by Mage66 on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:31 UTC
Mage66
Member since:
2005-07-11

This is just great news!

For those of us helping friends who need nothing more than solid e-mail, office apps, and some games...

We can load Freespire on their older (Celeron 500 and up) computers and then set them up with a free CNR account, and they're good to go!

Freespire supports NetZero, so they can even have 10 hours of internet access each month free as well.

It doesn't get any better than this.

For those so worried about how Linspire is going to make money to fund all of this... There is a donation link on the Freespire.org website. I donated...

If you want to support OpenSource projects that benefit "Aunt Minnie", you could do worse than sending a couple of bucks to Freespire.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Great news!
by Paiter on Wed 30th Aug 2006 22:36 UTC in reply to "Great news!"
Paiter Member since:
2006-08-24

Donating is good, unless of course it encourages a precarious situation. Donate, buy T-shirts and download the product for free. Wait... the T-shirts are not free?
But I want free T-shirts. Someone should start a company that actually GIVES the T-shirts for free and charges for the download of a beautiful Operating System made by the T-shirt designers themselves.

And of course a Foundation: FTSF - the free T-shirt foundation.

Reply Score: 0

Thanks for showing Kevin Carmony
by MadRat on Thu 31st Aug 2006 00:29 UTC
MadRat
Member since:
2006-02-17

The free basic CNR service is definitely a huge step forward for Lindows... err Linspire.

I have tried both Lindows 4.0 and Linspire 5.0 and found both pleasant for the basic desktop home user. They are full of decent eye candy and they do work fine for Windows 95/98/ME OEM copy replacements. Linspire is nice and stable, which adds to your reputation for putting out a good product.

The only distribution I found to be nicer to look at was the older Lycoris 3 distribution prior to Mandrake killing it off. Have to admit the flash and glitter of Lycoris at the time made it my favourite for installing on friends and family machines. It just had the wow factor for them, even without a CNR type of product included.

If you could somehow capture the more simple but colorful look and feel of the old Lycoris 3 distribution then I think Linspire would wow people even more. And when ReactOS gets more mature I hope you move to that kernel immediately. Just my 2 cents.

Reply Score: 1

What Freespire needs.
by Xaero_Vincent on Thu 31st Aug 2006 01:14 UTC
Xaero_Vincent
Member since:
2006-08-18

Perhaps I'll try Freespire when:

1) When at least an AMD64 port becomes available.
2) When a selection of 10,000+ fairly updated packages are offered via free Basic CNR and APT.
3) When SELinux, GrSecurity or AppArmor patched kernels with SMP, PAE, and Suspend2 support are offered.
4) When a control center like YaST is developed
5) When a live CD/DVD is offered
6) When flexible installer with advanced partitining and installation options is implemented.
7) When multilingual versions/packages are added.

There is probably more things but these are a good start in my opinion. Perhaps some of those exist (I dont know) but they all must be true for me to even consider. :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE: What Freespire needs.
by siimo on Thu 31st Aug 2006 07:39 UTC in reply to "What Freespire needs."
siimo Member since:
2006-06-22

1) Ok, but for me i dont see any advantage of using 64bit over 32bit for normal desktop use.

2) I think they are aiming at improving this with the community helping out now.

3) to be fair most distros dont provide Suspend2 enabled kernels, AppArmor? isnt that SUSE only?, No idea what PAE is and agree about SMP. SELinux - fair enough.

4) They can use YaST itself as its open source

5) The install CD is also a live CD I believe

6) ok

7) Can't comment being an english only user.

Reply Score: 1

Re: Nice to see
by aGNUstic on Thu 31st Aug 2006 01:15 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

It's actually nice to see Kevin Carmony on OSNews. This actually says a hell of a lot in my book.

I may start promoting this distro to Linux newcomers now that I see access to the basics is free.

Now to get a Linsire CD.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Re: Nice to see
by siimo on Thu 31st Aug 2006 07:40 UTC in reply to "Re: Nice to see"
siimo Member since:
2006-06-22

Yes its great and he also contributes regularly on Freespire forum at forum.freespire.org

Reply Score: 1

Tried Again, Failed.
by jlacroix on Thu 31st Aug 2006 06:16 UTC
jlacroix
Member since:
2006-08-30

I reburned the latest ISO, and it STILL won't run on my computer. Blasphemy!

Reply Score: 1

RE: Tried Again, Failed.
by siimo on Thu 31st Aug 2006 07:42 UTC in reply to "Tried Again, Failed."
siimo Member since:
2006-06-22

Do you have an AM2 or 939 board by any chance? people have problems with those from what i've read in the freespire forums.

Reply Score: 1

Wow!
by Windows Sucks on Thu 31st Aug 2006 11:54 UTC
Windows Sucks
Member since:
2005-11-10

This is the reason why Linux is not growning like Mac OS and Windows on the desktop! Its seems to me like Linux users are cheap and a bunch of cry babies!

Me I love Linux, but damn Linspire gives away one of their best parts and people are still spreading FUD.

No one says any of this about Xandros or Red Hat or Novell! They all sell their products just like Linspire, they have all done things that have left the Open source community out in the cold at times.

People should try Freespire and/or Linspire out. If you don't like it you don't like it. Move on.

If you like it, make it your default! My mother, grandmother, girlfriend and roommate all use Linspire 5 as their default OS and love it.

Remember Linspire is not for the hard core Linux user, Freespire is getting to be more for the hard core.

Anyway people STOP whining!

Reply Score: 2

RE: Wow!
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 14:36 UTC in reply to "Wow! "
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Yes, you are doing so much to further the cause. Calling people whiners and fudders and cry babies all without mentioning any examples of exactly what you are talking about.

The truth is not FUD, the truth is not whining, speaking about the truth is not being a cry baby or whining.

Well we are probably a little cheap ;)

Edited 2006-08-31 14:45

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Wow!
by Windows Sucks on Thu 31st Aug 2006 16:24 UTC in reply to "RE: Wow! "
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

I did give an example. I said that Linspire is no different then any other paid Linux company like Red Hat even though people paint Linspire as worse.

Also people are still saying that Linspire only runs as root. CNR is not as good as other package managers??

That linspire is going out of business because it's giving the basic CNR away?

All of those things are not true. It's all FUD.

I mean people were whining about $20 a year?? Don't you want the company to make some money and stay around? Its crazy that people wont pay $1.60 a month for a good service. (I am a gold member myself and I don't even use Linspire that much anymore) But my brother and mother do and they like it so I pay for it for them.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Wow!
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 18:08 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Wow! "
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

But that isn't true. Linspire and RedHat are different in a lot of ways. Redhat does not say "worlds easiest linux" "everything just works" "no elite hacker skills needed" and then when it is shown that stuff is still required then they change to "well no linux is perfect" and so forth.

People aren't saying ONLY root. We are saying that by default most new users WILL end up as root. We also are saying that it is often hard (harder than other distros) to use linspire as a non-root user. This link
http://help.linspire.com/cgi-bin/linspire.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.p...
specifically shows this - it is a link to linspires website which shows specifically one example of the trouble a non-root user will have. Do you think it is a coincidence that it actually mentions NON-ROOT user? You do not think that obviously this shows that they expect users running as root?

Some people have questioned if it could be a sign that linspire is going out of business. No more than that. That is speculation and still not FUD because it may very well be true or it may very well not be. But either way nobody can read that and take it to be more than speculation.

I don't care if they make money OR stay around. ;) They are welcome to do both but please do it honestly. A operating system that costs money and no way to install software (correctly) without paying for a add-on service that is a yearly subscription. That was poor.

Free CNR - that is good. That is how it should of been all along so sorry it is nothing I am going to run to the top of mt.everest to scream about. It is newsworthy and cool yet not earth shattering and there is no reason to think that every distro is immediately going to adopt this and replace what they have now. I just find it funny that to keep the *spire people all excited he constantly has to dangle the next big news announcement. But I do agree with it - it is fun (ny)!

Edited 2006-08-31 18:09

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Wow!
by Windows Sucks on Thu 31st Aug 2006 19:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Wow! "
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

"But that isn't true. Linspire and RedHat are different in a lot of ways. Redhat does not say "worlds easiest linux" "everything just works" "no elite hacker skills needed" and then when it is shown that stuff is still required then they change to "well no linux is perfect" and so forth."

Remember what they are saying is that it works better compared to other versions of Linux. As I stated in my last post, when you install Linspire (And much more with Freespire now) you don't have to spend hours getting all the normal stuff like flash and java and some plug and play etc to work.


"People aren't saying ONLY root. We are saying that by default most new users WILL end up as root. We also are saying that it is often hard (harder than other distros) to use linspire as a non-root user. This link
http://help.linspire.com/cgi-bin/linspire.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.p.....
specifically shows this - it is a link to linspires website which shows specifically one example of the trouble a non-root user will have. Do you think it is a coincidence that it actually mentions NON-ROOT user? You do not think that obviously this shows that they expect users running as root? "

Yes they did have a problem with that in the past, PAST being the key word here. And who knows how long ago this post was entered. Linspire 4 maybe? It doesn't say.


"I don't care if they make money OR stay around. ;) They are welcome to do both but please do it honestly. A operating system that costs money and no way to install software (correctly) without paying for a add-on service that is a yearly subscription. That was poor."

Again you are stating FUD. You could always use APT because it's Debian under the hood! The problem was always that if you use APT repositories outside of Linspire it would conflict if you then went back to use CNR. Even that problem is being resolved now. But you could always use APT in Linspire. I mean can you update Xandros without using their tool? No better then you can Linspire.

"Free CNR - that is good. That is how it should of been all along so sorry it is nothing I am going to run to the top of mt.everest to scream about. It is newsworthy and cool yet not earth shattering and there is no reason to think that every distro is immediately going to adopt this and replace what they have now. I just find it funny that to keep the *spire people all excited he constantly has to dangle the next big news announcement. But I do agree with it - it is fun (ny)!"

I mean is this any different then Steve Jobs or Bill Gates keynote speaches. Where they dangle the next big thing on rumor sites etc?

Come on, I think everyone is making a big deal out of nothing. I could see if Linspire did something that other companies didnt! But i think it's just because they didn't take the "Linux Religion" approach and took the "We are in it to make money" approach that rubs people wrong. :-(

Reply Score: 0

RE[5]: Wow!
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 20:16 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Wow! "
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

"Remember what they are saying is that it works better compared to other versions of Linux. As I stated in my last post, when you install Linspire (And much more with Freespire now) you don't have to spend hours getting all the normal stuff like flash and java and some plug and play etc to work.

First that is NOT what they are saying, they are saying exactly what I stated. I think it is even trademarked. Second of all it doesn't 'work' better. Yes it may in some areas and in some ways yet falls short in others - like sound (jackd) and the browser and other areas like boot time.

Yes they did have a problem with that in the past, PAST being the key word here. And who knows how long ago this post was entered. Linspire 4 maybe? It doesn't say.
No that isn't the past. Have a user install it today and unless they know about linux they will likely end up as a user and if they try to run as a user they will have to resort to those same 'elite hacker skills' that they criticise other distros for requiring to get things to work. If you look closely you will see that the screenshot shows 2005.

You could always use APT because it's Debian under the hood! The problem was always that if you use APT repositories outside of Linspire it would conflict if you then went back to use CNR. Even that problem is being resolved now. But you could always use APT in Linspire.
No you could not use apt on linspire and expect things to work. There is no fud to it. If you use apt you were installing software in incorrectly. As stated you had a OS but had no way of installing software in a supported manner unless you also pay a yearly fee. I think you are fudding against Xandros there - you better go check on the differences. But even if it was true - just because xandros is bad too doesn't somehow make linspire alright either.

I mean is this any different then Steve Jobs or Bill Gates keynote speaches
good point! I agree it is just like those people and those companies. ;)

No it is because they took the 'we are in it to make money' and nothing else matters approach.

I am completely put off of anything *spire now so I will quit commenting completely on this subject. The same attitude remains and the same shortcomings so I take back that I said things are changing. Obviously the more things change the more they stay the same.

Reply Score: 0

My response...
by Kevin_Carmony on Thu 31st Aug 2006 15:02 UTC
Kevin_Carmony
Member since:
2006-07-17

I also don't like about this that you've posted this mysteriously on the freespire wiki and then left forum users figure out what it was. Thats what i call (excuse the language) attention whoring.

I call it having some fun. It's what a community should do. The Freespire community is certainly different than most, we try not to take ourselves too seriously. =)

I consider CNR to be a package manager, similar to other software we consider package managers. Nothing of what I said was negative just a hope that you guys look to improve a project instead of starting a new one.

We usually try to participate in existing projects, unless we can't find one that is far enough along. For example, we participate and sponsor Mozilla/Firefox, KDE, ReiserFS, GAIM, Kopete, etc., but we started new projects with Nvu, Lsongs, Lphoto, and CNR, simply because we didn't think there was something far enough along (in the directions we felt needed going).

http://linspire.com/opensource

If no one ever can start a new open source project, Linux will be a very boring (and restrictive) world to live in.

I still donīt see how you expect to profit by doing this, Kevin, as most people surely will avoid to buy the CNR Gold stuff unless they really have to, but I congratulate you guys anyway.

Actually, CNR basic was a pretty small percentage of our revenue. Most came from Gold (purchased 3 to 1 over basic), and click and buys. If this change increases our user base a little, it will more than make up for the loss in revenue. There are many ways to skin a "free" cat. Look at Google, Craigslist, MySpace, etc., all free, and all worth more than any Linux company.

When 1.1 comes out in a couple months I would hope that people will be able to access newer packages.

They will. Freespire 1.0 was just the first release. I think we're starting off from a pretty strong place, and it will only get better.

They won't get free LINSPIRE OS upgrade versions but since freespire is free of charge they can certainly have the latest and greatest freespire at no charge.

Correct.

I have the impression that Linspire is a lot bigger in North America than it is here in Europe (correct me if I'm wrong).

About 60% of our users are in N. America, but we do have many throughout Europe. http://lraiser.com will show you maps of where new Linspire computers light up each week.

Keep in mind, the main way Linspire is distributed is pre-installed on computers (OEM's). http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.php?sent=...

We have stronger OEM support in some countries than others.

Do you think someday you might be selling complete systems in Europe?

We already do. Check the link above. Medion, a huge OEM there, sells Linspire PC's, as do others.

Why don't you launch, say, a bright yellow, XGL/Compiz ready Linspire laptop or something, instead of the eternal greyish boredom out there?

Because that would cost a lot of money. We don't sell computers, only software. It's up to the OEM's to do all the PC building. However, there are some pretty cool designs out there running Linspire. My personal favorite is the Koobox Mini. http://www.koobox.com/minikoobox.php Under 3 lbs, very quiet, yet decent power and speed. I have these throughout my home. I love 'em!

Ah yes there is always someone out there to pull the "you don't act professional" card out of their ***.

Gotta have a sense of humor, or life's not much worth living.

Kevin, thank you for taking the time to reply. Its wise, and its generous too.

Happy to.

Anyway, I think the only way Freespire would appeal to people like me who like bleeding edge is to have the latest versions of all the core programs.

That will be Freespire 1.1, later this year.

Well if he didn't then yes I play the card. He calls something fud that I offered a link to the linspire website that specifically indicates it is hard to run as anything but root in linspire. Which would indicate it isn't complete fud and has some merit and basis and I think they should stop trying to sidetrack anyone that brings up problems and just state the issue and how it is being corrected.

I just hate those CEO's who don't respond to every forum post on the web within one hour!!! (I do sleep now and then. =)

I run Freespire and Linspire as a user and rarely bump into a problem. I can't think of the last time I ran as root. EVERY distro has certain applications or drivers that don't play well unless running as root. Just like every other distro, we do all we can to minimize the pain there. I can find similar problems with any Linux distro. If I ever stop having a life, I'll spend some time and go do that. =)

There really is fresher FUD out there for you to use. I mean, we kill puppies over here ya know. ;-)

They're NOT trying to appeal to "people like you who like bleeding edge programs." New Linux converts will favor stability over bleeding edge.

Actually, with Freespire we will be more on the bleeding edge of things (starting with 1.1). But yes, Linspire will always lean towards stable.

http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/FAQ_Category:_About_Freespire_a...

Some good points made about stability and up-to-date apps.

Freespire has only been a project for a few months. Give us a few more, and this will no longer be a topic for discussion.

"there are no free lunches".

But there are ways to get others (advertisers, OEM's, ISV's, etc.) to buy you lunch. Google, MySpace, Craigslist, Freespire, CNR, etc.

Thank you, Thank you. I was starting to f--king twitch when I read that. I seriously have to wonder how Linspire ever expects to be taken seriously when their fearless leader and lead mouthpiece is so ignorant of any details of how Linux works.

Because I have other strengths, like understanding how the average human being works, and it's not at all how Linux usually works. 95% of the world wants to simply turn on their computer and it works. That seems to be something many in the traditional Linux community don't understand. I don't assume people have nothing better to do but learn how to get their computer to work, or call them dumb if they don't want to spend time learning how to hack their PC.

http://wiki.freespire.org/index.php/The_Perfect_Desktop_Linux_OS

It's actually nice to see Kevin Carmony on OSNews. This actually says a hell of a lot in my book.

Thanks.

Now, I was wondering how you are going to continue to provide the proprietary stuff (like DVD, MP3 Players) on CNR now that you are no longer charging for it?

CNR has always had the capability to sell proprietary software. That won't change. The SERVICE is now free, which lets you install some 20,000 applications and packages, but you still would have to buy the commercial stuff...DVD Player, StarOffice, CodeWeavers, etc.

"you're write about Ubuntu" - right or correct but not "write" -using text to speech software?

That's what happens when you "right" too fast. ;-)

(and the forum doesn't let you edit the following morning. =)

Kevin

Edited 2006-08-31 15:13

Reply Score: 3

RE: My response...
by h3rman on Thu 31st Aug 2006 21:54 UTC in reply to "My response..."
h3rman Member since:
2006-08-09

Do you think someday you might be selling complete systems in Europe?

We already do. Check the link above. Medion, a huge OEM there, sells Linspire PC's, as do others.

Guess I just live in the wrong country. ;)
I checked out the Medion website of my country (NL) where they don't seem to sell Linspire btw, and it says "MEDION advises Windows XP professional" (in Dutch).

I know, it's the deal they have with Redmond, but isn't there really anything to be done about this? I mean, how can a company like your own do business with all these MSWXPpro-advising companies? Everyone knows it makes no sense, but to the unaware, doesn't it give the impression ("yeah we advise MSWXP Pro, but we sell Linspire too") that Linspire, well any other system, is somehow second choice, a cheap alternative at best?

Sorry, this eternal "company X advises..." all over the place is pure SPAM and it just annoys me more than necessary, I guess.

Reply Score: 1

RE: My response...
by cfrankb on Thu 31st Aug 2006 22:09 UTC in reply to "My response..."
cfrankb Member since:
2006-01-03

> My personal favorite is the Koobox Mini. http://www.koobox.com/minikoobox.php

The PC looks good, but their logo...looks more like bOObox. Perhaps they want to keep us abreast of their latest developments.

Reply Score: 1

well
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 15:47 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

Still throwing that fud word around when in actuality none was provided and the things I stated I supportted with factual information.

We aren't talking about YOU we are talking about joe user who ends up running linspire as root and who you claim to be your target audience and everything just working.

The other linux distros do not claim to be the "worlds easiest linux" or other fun phrases and statements. You like to play both sides too much. One minute it is the easiest linux and no command line is needed, yet the next minute when someone points out a support article from linspire that shows command line is needed to do something you immediately switch arguments to - well no linux is perfect. Then in the next sentence state that everyone should be using your linux that just want it to work.

sidestepping....flip floppping.....whatever...

It is not helping my opinion of *spire at all.

Edited 2006-08-31 15:47

Reply Score: 1

RE: well
by Windows Sucks on Thu 31st Aug 2006 16:41 UTC in reply to "well"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

LOL!

I have never used an OS (Well the old Mac OS maybe) where I don't have to use the command line for something at some point.

Windows
Linux
BSD
Unix
Mac OS
etc.

Some where along the way, at some point you may have to use the command line.

The difference is of the small Linux versions Linspire is the most easy to use out the box. Facts is facts on that. (Being that you have to spend an hour or so getting Ubuntu to do the things you normally want to do like view flash, java etc)

Reply Score: 1

Edward
Member since:
2005-09-17

I love OpernSuSE 10, but it still lacks a click & install system. Linspire has CNR, PC-BSD has .PBI at the risk of being flamed for my non L33tness, I want something like that for OprnSuSE 10. Well all user friendly distreos, I thought that's what autopacksge was gonna be. What is going on with that anyway?

Edited 2006-08-31 16:05

Reply Score: 1

Freespire - awesome
by JeffS on Thu 31st Aug 2006 18:31 UTC
JeffS
Member since:
2005-07-12

Well, this latest anouncement (free CNR), and this discussion thread has inspired me (pun intended) to try Freespire. I've used Lindows/Linspire in the past, helping my mom with her computer, but I've usually preferred more hardcore distros. But at the same time, I like things that are both easy and polished.

Freespire as a desktop distro, all I can say is, WOW!

Run in live CD mode - flawless

Configure network connection - flawless

All hardware working - flawless

Look 'n' Feel - Beautiful, polished, professional, comfortable, easy, productive

Assortment of Apps - great

Install to Hard drive - Super easy, super fast (about 12 minutes), and completely flawless

Add in software with CNR - flawless, super easy (easier than standare apt or Synaptic), great selection - including titles not typically included in standard Debian repos (I've added jEdit and NetBeans).

Add users - easy, flawless

Configure - easy, flawless

Speed - good, above average. I've had pure Debian, Slackware, and perhaps Kanotix running faster on the same, old hardware. But Freespire compares very favorably to all the other desktop oriented distros, and is perhaps faster.

Stability - can't comment. I have to wait a month or two on that to give an honest assesement.

Really, I'm technical oriented, I'm not afraid of the command line, text based installers, editing text files for configuration, running/configuring services, writing C, C++, Java, C#, Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby code and compiling/running it, or a plethora of other technical oriented stuff. I like that stuff, and it's part of my work and my hobby/leasure time.

But I really like a polished, easy, no fuss no muss, everything working out of the box, desktop oriented distro.

And I've been in search of just the right one - using Mepis, Ubuntu, Mandriva, Fedora, SuSE, Kanotix, Knoppix, and PCLinuxOS. Each one of these fell short in one category or another, or many. Of these, PCLinuxOS and Kanotix have come the closest to being the complete package for me. But not quite.

But it's looking like Freespire might be the complete package. Everything Freespire is so easy, polished, fun, productive, complete.

We'll see over time if Freespire remains this good for me. We'll see about performance, stability, package updates, etc. But it is looking really really promising right now.

I totally applaud Linspire for making a complete Linux Desktop product/experience. I applaud them for both including proprietary codecs/drivers, and the choice to go pure OSS. I applaud them for running a business, based on value add on top of OSS, as well as selling proprietary software/services, as well as providing software for OEMs (the best way for desktop Linux to grow).

I also applaud Kevin Carmony for having the guts and integrity for getting on often hostile message boards and point out the facts about Free/Linspire. The FUD and hostility and zealotry, and plain stupidity, he has to deal with is incredible. Yet he remains calm, logical, humorous.

Good job all the way around.

Reply Score: 0

RE: Freespire - awesome
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 18:56 UTC in reply to "Freespire - awesome"
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Good review. Looks really good doesn't it?

Edited 2006-08-31 18:58

Reply Score: 1

Why single Linspire out?
by manofsteel21 on Thu 31st Aug 2006 21:13 UTC
manofsteel21
Member since:
2006-08-31

I'm kinda on the fence about his move, on one side it takes away a revenue stream but on the other it attracts more users. But either way i've tried Freespire and love it. As I get older and have to time to configure things Linspire/Freespire is the perfect solution, but it may not be for everyone, so with so many choices why are some ppl crying foul? Why are you trying to push your view on me? just because I dont want to use somthing you use or recomend doesnt make me wrong. I like the comment someone made by saying that other distros do the same type of thing and they do, what funny is that the same ppl that say that Linspire/Freespire is wrong for including the propriatary formats are the same one's that use Ubuntu and add the propriatary formats anyways! What about Mepis? it includes almost all the codecs I dont say anyone crying foul, or even SUSE the boxed version includs closed source items. So if your going to cry about distros carrying closed source software then I think your going to have to cry about all of them not just single one out.

Reply Score: 1

Making CNR free is a major announcement
by JeffS on Thu 31st Aug 2006 21:16 UTC
JeffS
Member since:
2005-07-12

.... and it's not "whoring".

I mean, CNR is a major part of Linspire's business strategy, and making the basic service free is therefore quite significant.

Also, so what if they are "in it to make money". Linspire is a business. That's what businesses do. They're not in it to lose money, afterall, or to piss off investors, or get all their employees laid off.

It's okay to run a business based on OSS - Red Hat does it, Novell does it, MySQL does it, JBoss does it, SugarCRM does it, Sun does it, QT does it, and so do many others. So don't get mad at Linspire because they are trying to make money.

And I think there is a huge, tangible, benefit to use a distro built by a professional business, where there are paid programmers. Compared to completely "for free" distros, a distro put out by a business tends to have the extra attention to detail, that extra polish, that extra level of documentation and support, that often make it worthwhile using/purchasing over other completely free distros. And now there's Freespire, which is mostly the same as regular Linspire, but with less support (all community based), and fewer extra goodies, and mor bleeding edge.

And because of this, I would recommend Freespire or Linspire to a Linux newbie/Windows/MacOS user over all the other desktop oriented distros I've previously used (Mandriva, Mepis, Ubuntu, PCLinuxOS, Kanotix, Knoppix). Freespire/Linspire just seems to have the extra level of polish, and "out of the box" ease of use and functionality that non technical newbies completely expect and demand. If they don't get it, they say "bye bye Linux".

And, as I've said before, even though I can fairly easily config a non newbie oriented distro (as I've done with Slack and FreeBSD) and use it happily, I very much appreciate extra polish and ease of use. It makes my computing life easier, so that I can get on to real work/play more quickly.

And we have to remember that as far as Desktop Linux is concerned, it is competing against both WinXP and MacOSX, which deliver very polished, very easy, very automatic end user experiences. And I think that of all the desktop oriented distros, Linspire/Freespire seem best equiped to compete head to head, feature for feature, polish for polish, with WinXP and MacOSX.

Reply Score: 1

CNR is fast, too
by JeffS on Thu 31st Aug 2006 21:39 UTC
JeffS
Member since:
2005-07-12

I've been adding programs with CNR while participating in this thread (while working, to ;-) ), and I've been noticing the speed in which CNR downloads and installs the packages (and immeditately adds them to the menu and with desktop shortcuts).

It is noticably faster than standard apt-get + Synaptic.

I read somewhere on the Linspire website that they are doing some compression/decompression of all the packages in the CNR warehouse, which be the reason for the improved speed.

Another thing I'd like to add is that the CNR Warehouse, which is Linspire's own managed repository, is another "value add" on top of standard Debian repositories (just like Ubuntu's frozen sid repos). It makes the repo stable, and you won't have to worry about something becoming borked when adding/updating software. That is something that can happen with standard Debian testing or unstable repos if you're not extremely carefull, due to the extreme volitility of those Debian repos. Linspire, as well as Ubuntu, make dealing with repos safer and more trouble free.

Reply Score: 1

RE: CNR is fast, too
by deanlinkous on Thu 31st Aug 2006 21:46 UTC in reply to "CNR is fast, too"
deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

Might want to check how old some of that software is, wouldn't want you to have stale stuff. ;) Also, you may want to check the security advisories and you will notice that what other distros consider to be security flaws and provide updates for them, *spire on the other hand rates security flaws differently and does not consider a lot of security flaws to be applicable.

Wont have to worry about things becoming borked? No *spire mixes packages from all over and has a convoluted warehouse which makes everything fragile and often means things are borked more often not less than Debian stable.

Edited 2006-08-31 21:48

Reply Score: 1