Linked by Thom Holwerda on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:05 UTC, submitted by Darkness
SkyOS USB support has been (re-)added to SkyOS, including of course the USB stack, a UHCI driver, support for control, interrupt, and bulk transfers, a USB HUB driver, a USB HID Keyboard driver, a USB HID Mouse driver, a USB Mass storage driver for CBI devices, including USB Harddisks, card readers, etc. The USB stack has been written from scratch and a new release containing USB support is expected.
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cool
by sardonic on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:14 UTC
sardonic
Member since:
2006-04-04

I've had a beta for awhile now, and this was a feature which I missed. Especially lately, everything I own is USB.

Reply Score: 1

Finally...
by tdehoog on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:26 UTC
tdehoog
Member since:
2006-03-21

It's ridiculous that something like this is added in such a late stadium of the development. Missing USB-support was making it very unnatractive to beta-test skyos, since no-one was fully able to test skyos natively. Only vmware was an option to test it properly. However, this is everything but representative about the hardware support of skyos. With this I mean the stability of the os being used with all sorts of CPU's, motherboards, RAM, and HDD's. I hope that this will be improved with this update.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Finally...
by robojerk on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:32 UTC in reply to "Finally..."
robojerk Member since:
2006-01-10

I havent downloaded any of the releases in awhile... Now that USB support is (re)added I am actually a little more interested in maybe playing with it again..

Reply Score: 1

RE: Finally...
by sardonic on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:41 UTC in reply to "Finally..."
sardonic Member since:
2006-04-04

It was odd, but it did exist way back when. It was axed early on when the beta's first started to come out i believe.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Finally...
by Darkness on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:43 UTC in reply to "RE: Finally..."
Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

the early support that used to be there was partially a port of an existing usb stack, which was one of the reasons it was buggy

Reply Score: 4

RE: Finally...
by Tomasz Dominikowski on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:55 UTC in reply to "Finally..."
Tomasz Dominikowski Member since:
2005-08-08

You must be joking. Testing SkyOS on bare metal to its fullest extent is possible if you shell out for an incredibly cheap Realtek 8139D NIC card and possibly a Live! card if you want sound with that. If you are complaining about hardware support, then please point me to your bug reports with debug logs in the SkyOS Bug Tracker.

Edited 2006-09-12 17:58

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Finally...
by adamk on Tue 12th Sep 2006 21:00 UTC in reply to "RE: Finally..."
adamk Member since:
2005-07-08

Tomasz, I would just point out that older PCI SB cards, based on the ensoniq 1371 chipset, are much more appropriate for SkyOS. Live! cards stutter massively and can only be used the first time a user logs, not after the user logs out and logs back in. At least that's been my experience on two different machines.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Finally...
by Kelly Rush on Tue 12th Sep 2006 21:48 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Finally..."
Kelly Rush Member since:
2005-06-30

Have you tried re-enabling the ISS service? I think that fixed it for me before.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Finally...
by anonymousbrowser on Wed 13th Sep 2006 10:37 UTC in reply to "RE: Finally..."
anonymousbrowser Member since:
2006-04-28

It being a proprietary OS can i apply for funding to obtain all the compatible hardware i'll need before i start beta testing the product for them?

Reply Score: 1

Re: Finally...
by GregV on Tue 12th Sep 2006 17:46 UTC
GregV
Member since:
2005-07-06

As a SkyOS loyalist, I agree with you. USB Support has been a very, very, important feature that was missing for a long period of time. However, Robert has been working on many changes to the Kernel since the 4.X versions (Side note: SkyOS did have USB support in 4.X). And, if your a programmer I'm sure you know this but, when your changing a kernel or simply writing one to begin with, it simple doesn't make sense to start working on Driver, or even application support. That aside, I would like to congratulate Robert on this, long awaited, feature!

Reply Score: 2

Yay USB !
by Lakedaemon on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:00 UTC
Lakedaemon
Member since:
2005-08-07

Congratulations Robert !

Another important milestone is reached...

Now...other awesome (but very time-consuming) moves in the future would be :

1) Printer/scanner support (through a port of CUPS ?)
2) Wifi/ADSL
3) A port of java/open office...

With the initial DDK release and the rewrite of the USB stack, I hope a few drivers will be implemented by
third parties...that would be nice.

Go go go SkyOS !
Lakedaemon

Reply Score: 4

RE: Yay USB !
by Tomasz Dominikowski on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:06 UTC in reply to "Yay USB !"
Tomasz Dominikowski Member since:
2005-08-08

1) That's a little known fact, but CUPS was ported a long, long time ago. Robert decided against including it because, let me quote here, "it was too bloated". A native interface to CUPS drivers will be written. ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Yay USB !
by Lakedaemon on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Yay USB !"
Lakedaemon Member since:
2005-08-07

mmhh..that's good news...

And I really like the fact that Roberts prefers to spend time and energy coding something good instead of choosing the easy path of porting/using something bloated.

That's a good investment that will pay in the long run.

edit : btw, I wasn't complaining in the previous post ;)
just stating some milestones that would bring SkyOS even closer to the day when you can use it as your primary OS (for the average user)...In an media-center configuration, it would be much sooner that that ;)

Edited 2006-09-12 18:18

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Yay USB !
by Kelly Rush on Tue 12th Sep 2006 21:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Yay USB !"
Kelly Rush Member since:
2005-06-30

Media center. Indeed. ;)

Reply Score: 1

One of these days...
by mattst88 on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:07 UTC
mattst88
Member since:
2005-08-27

... when printing, dial up, Java, an office suite, etc are all available there will be nothing more to complain about. That is with the obvious exception that it's not free or open source.

I say if that's all there is to complain about, Robert's doing a mighty fine job ;)

Keep up the awesome work, Robert.

Reply Score: 3

RE: One of these days...
by Tomasz Dominikowski on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:15 UTC in reply to "One of these days..."
Tomasz Dominikowski Member since:
2005-08-08

"That is with the obvious exception that it's not free or open source."

Oh shucks, SkyOS will be like Windows then. It'll still take time for people to understand that if they complain about SkyOS being non-FOSS, they look as ridiculus as the people who complain that Windows is non-FOSS.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Finally...
by rabadash on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:13 UTC
rabadash
Member since:
2006-09-12

Ummmm... I beg to differ. I have said network card and a live! sound card, yet of my four computers of various ages, none of them have supported chipsets. They aren't really unique either. I am paid beta tester, but I've never been able to actually run the beta despite all of my efforts. I'm getting a new(used) computer this weekend though that is listed as supported, so hopefuly all goes well.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Finally...
by Tomasz Dominikowski on Tue 12th Sep 2006 18:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Finally..."
Tomasz Dominikowski Member since:
2005-08-08

Yet you don't report this in the Bug Tracker? How are we to improve SkyOS if you don't report problems?

We see this every time a beta build gets released.

"Oh bloody hell this and that still isn't fixed!"

Robert: "I don't know what are you talking about, no report in the bug tracker = no problem".

I hope you get the picture. You are a beta-tester...?

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Finally...
by smitty on Tue 12th Sep 2006 19:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Finally..."
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Presumably SkyOS developers already know which chipsets it does and does not support.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Finally...
by tdehoog on Tue 12th Sep 2006 20:51 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Finally..."
tdehoog Member since:
2006-03-21

I don't think you get my point... Due to the lack of USB-support I simply refused to test it (I even had to pay to test it!!!). Someone developping an OS and neglecting USB-support just doesn't understand the needs of the actual tester. They want to test the os properly. Is being forced to use antique ps/2 mice and keyboard a nice way to test an OS? I don't think so. Sure, I'm willing to test a new OS, and sure, I will see most bugs as a part of the development process an I'm willing to file those. However, if the main-developer (since there's only one...) waits this long for something vital as USB-support, he is making it really hard for his testers to give an objective report of their experiences. Since they can only use virtualization software to test it without having to put a lot of effort in it. Ever wondered why all the drivers for the VMWare hardware are already implemented?

Let me give you an example: I'm developping a new car. however: it only has train-wheels (ps/2), since these are easier to develop. So the testers of the car can only test it on a railroad. I know that normal car wheels (USB) are an important part of the car, but since I'm so busy implementing the in-car entertainment (openGL, QuakeIII anyone...?) these wheels can wait...

I know it sounds stupid, and I know I'm bashing a lot of SkyOS fanboys with this post. But I just want to give you my opinion on the SkyOS development roadmap: Put the effort on the right things. Things that make an OS an OS, and not just a nice development project from which the developper can learn a lot.

Reply Score: 3

RE[5]: Finally...
by serenity on Wed 13th Sep 2006 13:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Finally..."
serenity Member since:
2005-08-19

Robert: "I don't know what are you talking about, no report in the bug tracker = no problem".

Besides all pros and cons, I do not think that the basic attitude speaking from Roberts words is what you need to develop a progressive OS. This attitude is merely one that huge companies have.

Or seen the other way round: I am sure SkyOS could make more progress if the attitude was to do good software instead of waiting for problems to be reported. And please do not come with "It is just one person doing this job". Especially in this case quality (or efficiency) is more important than quantity (a huge number of ported programs in this case).

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Finally...
by Darkness on Tue 12th Sep 2006 19:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Finally..."
Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

... none of them have supported chipsets ...
could you specify which chipsets those are? Usually Robert is eager to fix boot problems when provided with debuglogs or even pictures of the kernel debugger if that's not possible...
Bootproblems scare people away so he knows these should be fixed.

Once bootproblems like these are fixed for a user, this user can see himself as a worthy beta tester since he helped improving skyos

Reply Score: 2

USB support?
by Endica on Tue 12th Sep 2006 20:32 UTC
Endica
Member since:
2006-07-07

Fantastic, an operating system with USB support! And it's even cheaper than Microsoft Windows.

Reply Score: 5

v People are paying for this?
by Isolationist on Tue 12th Sep 2006 20:45 UTC
RE: People are paying for this?
by Darkness on Tue 12th Sep 2006 21:24 UTC in reply to "People are paying for this?"
Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

Sorry don't mean to be negative, but are people really paying for this??? come on!!!!
There is a lot of crappy software out there where you have to pay more than 30$ to get a full version.
30$ is really no big deal, spend a good night out in a club and you could loose even more.

You are obviously not someone who would even be willing to donate to some project just because you like it or you want to support the developper(s).

and yes, he is the only one doing core developper. The payed beta program is one reason for him not to loose interest in it.

@tdehoog: how much costs a usb to ps2 converter, 1$? wow, that's a big effort to make...
It's perfectly possible to test SkyOS without usb support.
The vmware hardware is supported to give the people that do have problems with hardware the possibility to test everything in skyos.

Edited 2006-09-12 21:25

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: People are paying for this?
by Isolationist on Tue 12th Sep 2006 21:44 UTC
Isolationist
Member since:
2006-05-28

"You are obviously not someone who would even be willing to donate to some project just because you like it or you want to support the developper(s).

and yes, he is the only one doing core developper. The payed beta program is one reason for him not to loose interest in it.

@tdehoog: how much costs a usb to ps2 converter, 1$? wow, that's a big effort to make... "

I have denoted to many opensource projects ;)

So please tell me why you would expect me to pay to test an Operating System without USB support and why I should pay for a PS2 converter?

God help us if he "loses" interest in it ;) For me it seems a big risk to invest time and effort in an OS developed by one person who will not share the source code.

Edited 2006-09-12 21:47

Reply Score: 2

Kelly Rush Member since:
2005-06-30

So now it supports USB. Why are you still complaining?

And he hasn't lost interest in the 10 years he's been working on it. I'd say he has a pretty good track record. There are a few people that work with Robert to support him in various ways (myself included), even if he is the only full-time developer. We also have a wonderful user community that keeps us (and especially Robert) motivated to keep going. ;)

Reply Score: 2

sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

I don't think it is about the money or the amount. It may be instead the difference between donating towards something that is being openly shared (as in open source), and having to pay in order to get access to something that is proprietary (as in closed source).

The latter will always create higher expectations than the former, which is why I think SkyOS may be put under tougher scrutiny compared to other alternative OS projects (which are open source).

Sometimes the responses from the people close to SkyOS let transpire a sense that people are forking out $30 to support the project (as it if were a donation to the SkyOS cause), when those who opened their wallets may think different and feel entitled to a better response other than "have you posted a bug?" reply.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: People are paying for this?
by adamk on Tue 12th Sep 2006 23:13 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: People are paying for this?"
adamk Member since:
2005-07-08

Sometimes the responses from the people close to SkyOS let transpire a sense that people are forking out $30 to support the project (as it if were a donation to the SkyOS cause), when those who opened their wallets may think different and feel entitled to a better response other than "have you posted a bug?" reply.

I, personally, can agree with that... I have nearly about forty open bugs in Mantis for SkyOS. And while I don't doubt that Robert regularly works on them, and many of them are probably no longer valid, it's still frustrating to see some long standing bugs that directly impact the usability of the OS be put on hold while Robert works on something like quake3arena, which I have no use for...

But, alas, I knew the risks when I went ahead and forked out the $30... And, frankly, so did everyone else who forked out the $30 :-)

Reply Score: 3

sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

> I knew the risks when I went ahead and forked out the $30...

Sure. But I would not assume that everyone is aware of those risks, and that's probably a fact that SkyOS will have to live with. :-)

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: People are paying for this?
by Isolationist on Tue 12th Sep 2006 22:09 UTC
Isolationist
Member since:
2006-05-28

I am not, just can't believe that people have paid to test this OS that doesn't support USB, and is not opensource.

Putting that aside, surely it is best to let as many people test the OS as possible... much wider exposure. Why not let people download the betas for free to try it out and report bugs?

If Robert is so motivated and interested in his OS then why not open it to wider audience for testing? Hell, why not make it opensource and get more developers interested in it.

Edited 2006-09-12 22:11

Reply Score: 1

zizban Member since:
2005-07-06

One word: control

By limiting the beta, you get a smaller group and hence one that is more focused. Can you imagine Robert having to deal with bug thousands of bug reports?

And by paying you have a more vested interest in the outcome.

Reply Score: 3

Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

it does support USB now, no need to brag about the lack of it any more.

And did you ever realize that you can develop for skyos and improve it without access to the source? With a decent API you can do a lot.

Robert has his reasons for not open sourcing the kernel, it's the authors choice and working fine so far.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: People are paying for this?
by Isolationist on Tue 12th Sep 2006 22:21 UTC
Isolationist
Member since:
2006-05-28

In that case why not just make it opensource? That way, more developers and more exposure.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: People are paying for this?
by Isolationist on Tue 12th Sep 2006 22:46 UTC
Isolationist
Member since:
2006-05-28

I know it supports USB now, hence the article ...

What are Robert's reasons for not opening the kernel source?

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: People are paying for this?
by Isolationist on Tue 12th Sep 2006 22:56 UTC
Isolationist
Member since:
2006-05-28

Well it seems quiet on here now. I think it is safe to get bed ;)

Reply Score: 1

Re[6]: People are paying for this?
by GregV on Wed 13th Sep 2006 02:25 UTC
GregV
Member since:
2005-07-06

Robert has SkyOS closed source for the very same reason other developers decide to have their projects opensource. It is simply his choice. Since open source is all about freedom, Robert should also have the free-choice not market his code under an open source license.

Now, with that said, at one point SkyOS *was* open source. During this time outside developers helped out writing the kernel, making drivers and so forth. Robert found it simply didn't work for him. I don't know the *exact* reason why, but I believe some of the "core" group left the project and others simply didn't work to well with the project, and it just became a hassle to have SkyOS open source(at least, thats what I remember, but I might be wrong, don't quote me on that).

Reply Score: 1

sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

Nobody is questioning Robert for his choice. If he wants to keep it closed, so be it. He wants to charge for the beta program? That's ok too. It is his work after all.

But those decisions carry certain consequences in how people may perceive the project, whether he likes it or not.

There is certain leniency towards open source projects; people can be forgiving (and even generous) because they recognize that the work is being done by volunteers on their time; there is also the premise that the code is open for anyone to see and use (maybe under certain conditions, depending on the license).

You cannot expect the same forgiveness (and generosity) towards closed projects for which money has to be paid to beta test. That is, IMHO, a direct consequence of Robert's decision to close source SkyOS and charge money to give access to their beta program.

So, it is his decision, yes. But the consequences may be out of his control.

Reply Score: 4

Kelly Rush Member since:
2005-06-30

"You cannot expect the same forgiveness (and generosity) towards closed projects for which money has to be paid to beta test."

Yes, but most of the criticism is handed by people that do not own the SkyOS beta, and have never used SkyOS. The beta testers are generally the most understanding and patient of all the people that follow SkyOS's continued development.

Reply Score: 1

sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

> Yes, but most of the criticism is handed by people that
> do not own the SkyOS beta, and have never used SkyOS.
> The beta testers are generally the most understanding
> and patient of all the people that follow SkyOS's
> continued development.

Does not seem to be the case in this particular case, but I give you the benefit of the doubt. :-)

Reply Score: 1

bornagainenguin Member since:
2005-08-07

Unbelievable!

Yes, but most of the criticism is handed by people that do not own the SkyOS beta, and have never used SkyOS. --Kelly Rush

So in other words we're not supposed to discuss the OS unless we've 'donated' money by buying into the beta?

--bornagainpenguin

Reply Score: 1

adamk Member since:
2005-07-08

You should work on your reading comprehension. Not only was that not what Kelly said, he in no way even implied that.

Reply Score: 0

Re[5]: People are paying for this?
by GregV on Wed 13th Sep 2006 02:34 UTC
GregV
Member since:
2005-07-06

On that last point, I'd like to point out that no body on SkyOS "management" (except maybe Kelly) to my knowledge has been formally trained in any type of Public Relations/Customer Service type roles. People simply get positions based on their abilities in other fields, for example, Matt. He is great with coding, therefore, he gets an Administrative position in the software development area and it tends to carry over...

Reply Score: 1

Spreading
by Darkness on Wed 13th Sep 2006 06:07 UTC
Darkness
Member since:
2005-08-27

[i}But those decisions carry certain consequences in how people may perceive the project, whether he likes it or not. [/i]
This has been touched lightly in the previous posts but it is not SkyOS' intention to reach as many people as possible at this moment.

This way the beta team is limited in size in order to get better quality bug reports. This is also one of the reasons that other projects or OS use payed beta systems.

Oh and in case you didn't notice, paying for the beta will also get you the final product so for those interested in the project, this is a nice way to try it while they wait.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Spreading
by sogabe on Wed 13th Sep 2006 09:25 UTC in reply to "Spreading"
sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

What's the reasoning behind the thought that money will result in quality bug reports?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Spreading
by Darkness on Wed 13th Sep 2006 10:47 UTC in reply to "RE: Spreading"
Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

What's the reasoning behind the thought that money will result in quality bug reports?
The way I see it (Roberts view might differ a bit but he said something along those lines):

* payed beta -> less beta tester
* too many beta testers (most of them only doing a quick glance over it) -> lots of duplicate bugreports or bugreports with insufficient info making it harder to distinguish the usefull reports from the others.
* less beta testers, more interactivity possible.
-> example: you file a bugreport about a networkproblem and attach a debuglog and you visit the irc channel. Suddenly robert enters the channel and tries to work out this issue or gives hints to try and get a more usefull debuglog so he can fix it faster.
Your bug could be fixed within hours or days.

If that was a bugreport like "this is not working for me" without extra info, robert will not do much effort if he can't reproduce it and continue with bugs he can reproduce.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Spreading
by sogabe on Wed 13th Sep 2006 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Spreading"
sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

> * payed beta -> less beta tester
* less beta testers, more interactivity possible.

Keeping the number of beta testers to a manageable level is wise, but that alone will not guarantee better bug reporting, nor will charging $$$ for the beta program make it better.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Spreading
by Darkness on Wed 13th Sep 2006 17:05 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Spreading"
Darkness Member since:
2005-08-27

how do you know that for sure?

remember skyos used to be open source and free, so I'm sure Robert can tell you the difference between the 2 systems and the effect on the bugreports.

If you really want an answer from robert himself, I invite you to visit the irc channel now and then. He won't bite ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Spreading
by sogabe on Wed 13th Sep 2006 18:02 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Spreading"
sogabe Member since:
2006-04-27

> how do you know that for sure?

The fact that you are having low quality bug reports? :-)

Reply Score: 1