The European Union's antitrust commission plans to investigate complaints regarding Microsoft Office, EU Competition Commissioner Neelie Kroes said Thursday. Kroes, who was speaking at the Fordham Annual Conference on International Antitrust Law and Policy, did not elaborate on the investigation.
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Member since:
2005-06-29
From what I can tell from the article the EU is investigating if not being able to save to PDF is anti-competitive?
I'd think that if Microsoft implemented ODT support, good and installed by default ODT support, that the EU would have a hard time arguing a case for anti-competitive behaviour. Especially considering Adobe wanted $$$ for supporting PDF.
It's pretty silly I think. As long as you can print to postscript the ps->pdf software is pretty easy to come by...
Member since:2006-02-04
This is a bit odd. Is the EU suggesting that they will fine MS if they don't pay Adobe and add PDF support?
I wonder though if it is in the best interest for Adobe to require a licence fee for the PDF exporter. Seems to me, that if MS doesn't have PDF support, people may very well begin to use the new MS format and PDF will lose market share. This could be what the EU is concerned with as it furthers the MS monopoly.
I'm not a MS monopoly fan, but I just don't like the idea of a company being fined if they don't pay another company to licence their product.
Member since:2006-02-05
No, you misunderstood the (unclear) article. Adobe doesn't want money from Microsoft, they want Microsoft to charge their (Microsoft's) customers for the PDF functionality in Office 2007 and/or Vista. If Microsoft makes this feature available to their customers for free, then Adobe will completely lose that market. If Microsoft sells their PDF plugin, then Adobe has a chance to compete.
Adobe says that while OpenOffice and Mac OS X already support PDF creation, this does not really affect their business because of the small marketshare of OpenOffice and Mac OS X. If, Microsoft, as the monopolist in both the office software market and the OS market, includes the same functionality, however, the market for PDF creation software will collapse.
If Adobe can satisfactorily show that currently this market does still exist (even though free PDF creators are already available for Windows) and that this market will really cease to exist when Microsoft includes PDF functionality, then - and only then - the EU will probably insist that Microsoft removes the feature.
Member since:2006-02-04
Member since:2005-06-29
Well, I believe the article says what you said. But, if you add one extre piece of knowledge you can get to the other conclusion: Microsoft isn't going to raise the price of Office in order to include PDF support. You could say the customer will pay for it, but really it's Microsoft's profit margin that will pick up the bill; the difference is that the charge would be per-license instead of per-version shipped.
Since Microsoft, presumably, can't extend PDF I think they'll have a hard time competing with Adobe who makes a sensible typesetting program (a product Microsoft has yet to produce). In other words: People write books for print in Pagemaker, not Word.
I've not known many individuals other than college professors who buy Pagemaker for anything less than writing a book.
Member since:2005-07-11
helgegrimm: Adobe says that while OpenOffice and Mac OS X already support PDF creation, this does not really affect their business because of the small marketshare of OpenOffice and Mac OS X...
Hmmm..
PDF is supposed to be a open standard. That should mean anyone can implement that standard without restriction - thats the whole point of open standards.
Therefore what you are saying is that Microsoft is not allowed to implement open standards freely (PDF)if someone else (Adobe) is using them!
Member since:2005-06-29
Member since:2005-07-06
True, and neither do I; if I was Microsoft, I'd chuck a bone the EU's way by laying out a XPS working group to work with vendors and opensource projects, sign a contract that protects all those who embrace and implement the XPS format.
Basically, put XPS in a situation where by its embraced by a large number of companies, its open and freely implimentable by all and sundry - the net result, Microsoft can then turn around and say that there are a number of customers and partners who have embraced XPS: they've made moves to get Adobe onboard this working group, they've refused to co-operate, and Microsoft would come out the winner.
On a side note, Microsoft only makes around 1.5billion off Europe, they could easily pull the plug if they wanted to, given that they can then turn their attention to growing markets in the asia/pacific region.
Member since:2006-09-16
Microsoft could NEVER withdraw from Europe. That would be an unbelievably stupid move, because they would lose their monopoly. If 450 million Europeans were forced to use a Mac or Linux, then tens of thousands of software applications and games for these operating systems would be created or ported from Windows.
Thereafter switching to the Mac or Linux would become a much more viable option for everyone else (Americans, Asians etc.).
Member since:2005-07-06
Bull, it would never occur; the commission would cave in because the economic consequences of not giving in would be higher than what would occur if Microsoft simply pulled out of the market.
All Microsoft would have to say is; "so, you don't mind making x thousands people unemployed? I guess your respective governments can make jobs for them, since they're doing such a bloody wonderful job with unemployment rates in the double digits range".
PS: For those wanting to know; I'm from New Zealand (No, that isn't in the Netherlands, you're thinking of Zeeland), I'm a card carrying member of the "We Hate America" club, so I'm hardly being a US fanboy; but there is a difference between a legitimate gripe and a whinefeast put on my Microsofts competitors and their inability to get their shit together.
Just take Real Player and their spyware/adware that they force down peoples throats, coupled with the forced registration, hardly enticements to new users to use their products! and where is this "IBM loves opensource" - so when are we going to see Lotus Smart Suite opensourced and delivered on Linux? Believe me, it would be a bloody improvement over OpenOffice.org and the bloatware that is.
Its like the middle east, if you took out Israel, you'd have all the countries going back to beating the shit out of each other over things that occured 2000 years ago, same situation here, if Microsoft was removed from the situation, you'd go back to a situation where you'd have a fragmented market, whining customers, and poor selection of products.
Edited 2006-09-16 04:44
Member since:2006-02-22
Agreed – MS are not that stupid. It would be great if they were, then we would definitely see, Linux on the desktop possibly even Zeta too (being German). However, the EU has got this wrong, the real problem with MS Office is, it isn't available, for other platforms Linux etc., even the Mac version doesn't have access. How many people – companies would not need Windows if Office could run on other platforms – well me and the company I work for a start.
I know the WINE team is working hard and OOo is OK but....
Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:2006-01-17
They should also do this:
- Release open source/shared source directx and driver framework specs so direct3D API could be ported to other platforms. Maybe give control to a neutral body.
- Fully cooperate with Mono, give all needed documentation and reveal implementation details of all NET based API's. Cooperate on future specs (public discussions).
Member since:2005-11-10
Member since:2005-07-12
Member since:2006-01-17
Member since:2005-10-11
So what? Here in the EU we have laws and Microsoft has to respect those if they want to do business here, if they don't it's their problem and it's a good thing they get punished for it. True, the EU is bureaucratic but it's not like America, where the company with the largest amount of marketshare and cash has the power to even overrule the governement.
The USA is only going further and further down at this time and the only reason why that happens is because of idiots like you live there, like your president.
Thank god I'm not an american or live there, i'm proud to be a European. I'm not an MS hater but I don't like the way they are abusing their monopoly and after that wash there hands in blamelessness (Or however you say that in english). The USA may fall for that trick, the EU doesn't and now MS starts crying saying how unfair everything is. Come on, open your eyes!
Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:2005-07-07
How exactly is Microsoft implementing an ISO standard abuse of their "monopoly"? If anything, Adobe is abusing their monopoly on PDF by using double-standards after touting it as an open format.
What is the ISO standard that Microsoft is implementing? As far as I know OpenXML is not an ISO standard, although ODF is and Microsoft does not include this functionality. It is a third party plugin. PDF on the other hand is very open. In fact there are tons of applications, including OpenOffice that export to PDF.
Member since:2006-03-17
Ouch!
We're not all idiots over here.
Just use OpenOffice. I doubt I'll ever touch MS Office again.
Oh wait, Sun's a US company... (snap!)
Yes, we know - Bush is a dolt. Let us deal with that.
Keep in mind, thousands of dead citizens (and some pets!) apparently rose from the grave and voted Republican. It's hard to debate with zombies.
Member since:2006-01-06
True, the EU is bureaucratic but it's not like America, where the company with the largest amount of marketshare and cash has the power to even overrule the governement.
How, exactly, does MS have the "power to even overrule the government"? Hint: It doesn't. MS went through years of antitrust trials and eventually lost. That's hardly "overruling" the government.
The USA is only going further and further down at this time and the only reason why that happens is because of idiots like you live there, like your president.
Nonsense and hyperbole. Care to provide any examples?
Thank god I'm not an american or live there
I thank God for the same.
I'm not an MS hater but I don't like the way they are abusing their monopoly and after that wash there hands in blamelessness (Or however you say that in english).
Abusing their monopoly? MS doesn't have a monopoly on Office products. And, even if it did, MS voluntarily pulled direct support for PDF and XPS from Office. How, exactly, is that "abusing their monopoly"?
The USA may fall for that trick, the EU doesn't and now MS starts crying saying how unfair everything is. Come on, open your eyes!
Your arguments are completely incoherent. Do yourself a favor and do a little reading on what's actually happening in the software industry.
Member since:2005-07-07
How, exactly, does MS have the "power to even overrule the government"? Hint: It doesn't. MS went through years of antitrust trials and eventually lost. That's hardly "overruling" the government.
Actually they lost initially, but won on appeals. That's why nothing ever happened with the anti-trust suit.
The USA is only going further and further down at this time and the only reason why that happens is because of idiots like you live there, like your president.
Nonsense and hyperbole. Care to provide any examples?
Well I live in the US and I would have to agree. Bush hasn't accomplished anything except miring this country in debt and war.
Abusing their monopoly? MS doesn't have a monopoly on Office products. And, even if it did, MS voluntarily pulled direct support for PDF and XPS from Office. How, exactly, is that "abusing their monopoly"?
The EU declared MS a monopoly. The US also declared MS a monopoly. You don't need to agree to make MS a monopoly. By pulling support for alternative formats MS is doing what they have always done, lock people into their formats, therefore locking people into their products, which is exactly the definition of abuse of monopoly power.
Your arguments are completely incoherent. Do yourself a favor and do a little reading on what's actually happening in the software industry.
You just might want to take your own advice.
Edited 2006-09-18 14:12
Member since:
2006-07-04
MS already ripped PDF support out of Office 2007 (they did the same for XPS support as well), but are allowing PDF and XPS plugins to be downloaded for free. MS also ripped XPS support out of Vista except for the printer spool back-end (OEMs can include the full functionality on their own accord).
Adobe made MS do this, but I guess Adobe wasn't satisfied. It's true that Adobe wants MS to charge extra for PDF support. Why? Because Adobe has a monopoly on converting Office documents to PDF with their Office->PDF converter. Adobe wants to protect that monopoly rather than compete on features. Adobe went so far as to propose to MS that they would allow MS to include PDF functionality natively in Office 2007 if Microsoft charged extra so as not to undercut Adobe's Office->PDF business. In other words, Adobe proposed that they and Microsoft collude in price-fixing! That is what you MS haters are supporting, price-fixing! And that a government entity would advocate price-fixing is beyond the pale, but not a surprise for the EC, which hates MS with such a passion that they're unable to think clearly.
So not only are you guys supporting Adobe's efforts to protect their monopoly on Office->PDF conversion, you're also supporting price-fixing.
Also, with European government entities mandating the use of OO.o (and HP and Dell bundling WordPerfect Office by default, last I checked), how can the EU claim that MS Office is a monopoly in the first place? No court or government body has ever ruled such. Of course, that the EC has no due process, allowing them to just declare whatever they want, then hope it stand up on appeal to the real courts (that supposedly have due process). So I guess they don't have to prove that Office is a monopoly product, just declare that it is and proceed to levy the fines and what-have-you.
BTW, Adobe claims that PDF is an open ISO standard. But if they can use legal threats to prevent particular companies from using it, then it's not truly open at all. Massechusettes may want to rethink blessing PDF as an open standard.
Also, the end result of this is that MS makes their free PDF plugin unavailable in Europe. Or, more likely, MS makes it available, but charges extra for it in Europe. Yes sir, the EU is doing wonders for the European consumers!
Edited 2006-09-15 19:06
Member since:2005-07-12
Member since:2005-07-07
Member since:2006-01-16
1. MS Office is a monopoly by market-share numbers, a fact.
2. The article is very vague as to what EU really wants. It seems to me they want MS office to be able to save documents in other than MS format (which makes perfect sense considering they do hold a monopoly on office and that governments need to access their data..)
Member since:2005-12-15
Checking my MS Word, I can see the following non-Microsoft specific formats: XML Document, Single File Web Page, Web Page, Web Page Filtered, Rich Text Format and Plain Text.
I'm a real fan of Linux but also Microsoft where it's practical, and frankly when I see articles like this I just have to wonder how many agendas exist within the EU to bring Microsoft down.
Why on earth would a company HAVE to support another format which is licensed just because some organisation feels it makes it more competitive is beyond me.
It may not be perfect, but the OOo team have gone to great strides reversing the DOC format with great success.
The DOC format definately doesn't have the hold on the market that it used to.
Member since:2005-06-29
Member since:
2005-07-28
Member since:
2005-12-02
Basically, in this instance anyway, since Microsoft decided to do the right thing, they are still getting nailed by the EU. In fact, if they HAD included the formats, both PDF and XPS, then the EU would have said they are abusing a monopoly. Time to wake up and smell the coffee folks, software is a business that needs competition. As well the EU complained about Microsft XP not being secure, so wehn they fix that in Vista, that is still an issue as now it might hurt security software sales. Give it a rest already EU, and stop your blackmailing.
Member since:
2005-07-06
Member since:
2005-10-12
Its a common problem with companies with monopoly market share.
If you allow the extra functionality to be included, you allow extending the monopoly. Eg Explorer being built into Windows, Media Player and so on.
If you don't, you are effectively becoming product manager of Windows, and worse, are selectively advantaging other suppliers of the functionality and maybe stopping your monopolist from giving the customer what he/she wants.
The solution is to leave this stuff alone, stop worrying about the content of Office or Windows, and instead focus on the real comptetition issues.
1) Go after the per processor licensing regime
2) Go after the platform limitations of Office
3) Go after the closed APIs.
4) Go after the undocumented file formats.
It really doesn't matter what features Office has. What matters is, will it run on the serious OS alternatives - Linux/Unix and are its file formats open. Get the file formats opened up. It really doesn't matter what features Windows has, including the server features. What matters is opening up the APIs, and making it easier for OEMs to sell 'naked PCs' or PCs with Linux bundled.
Member since:
2005-07-06
… by this thread.
Let's see : someone (Adobe ?) complained to the EU antitrust commission about MS Office. Said commision said it will investigate the complaint. The only news there is that someone complained. Other than that, everything is perfectly normal :
1) Someone complains
2) There is an investigation : is the complaint founded ?
3) There is a conclusion, positive or negative
Yet, most people here react as if the EU :
1) by simply stating it will investigate, has somehow already judged Microsoft guilty.
2) shouldn't investigate when a complaint is filed.
I bet those people, when they complain about something, would just love to see the judge or the prosecutor or whoever is in charge of those things throw the complain directly to the trash, saying "I won't bother investigate this, I'm fed up with complaints against that same guy you're complaining against, and I'm afraid people will say I'm just tormenting him because he is rich and powerful."
Member since:
2005-08-27
"So what? Here in the EU we have laws and Microsoft has to respect those if they want to do business here, if they don't it's their problem and it's a good thing they get punished for it. True, the EU is bureaucratic but it's not like America, where the company with the largest amount of marketshare and cash has the power to even overrule the governement."
What you call laws are not laws at all. They are called "RAPE".
I don't care if it is Sony, Microsoft, or Apple, the EU will rape american companies.
This is what they have to do to make Europe compete. f--king rednecks.
Go ahead and vote down this post, you know it is the truth. American's don't treat Europeans like garbage, but I suppose we should.
Member since:2005-07-06
Member since:
2005-08-27
Member since:2005-07-06
