Linked by Thom Holwerda on Sat 21st Oct 2006 22:59 UTC, submitted by Christian Jensen
Debian and its clones Steve McIntyre visited the LiMux team in Munich and has posted a small report about the visit on his blog. LiMux is the specially tailored Debian distribution City of Munich deploys. "I'd like to talk some more about LiMux, the project being run within the City of Munich to replace all of their desktop Windows systems with Linux. They gave us a demonstration and answered lots of our questions."
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A lot of hard work
by Southern.Pride on Sat 21st Oct 2006 23:35 UTC
Southern.Pride
Member since:
2006-09-14

I have to say, a migration like that is a lot of work. My hats off to those involved, I am surprised they are still running Windows NT since support was dropped by MS on that platform...

Linux can be successful, once the end user base is familar with the interface and applications like OpenOffice, Evolution ect...

Reply Score: 4

RE: A lot of hard work
by Hands on Mon 23rd Oct 2006 15:56 UTC in reply to "A lot of hard work"
Hands Member since:
2005-06-30

A lot of IT shops stay with old software for one reason: custom applications. It can often be difficult and very costly to migrate even from an old version of Windows to a new one. If you have a custom system supporting thousands of users that was created 10-15 years ago, creating entirely new tools can be as economical as migrating everything to current technology. Since either option can be expensive in terms of time and resources, an entity with limited resources such as a city government or an unvalued government branch isn't likely to move quickly to a newer system without a cost-saving plan regardless of what MS supports.

Reply Score: 1

v A pity
by NotParker on Sat 21st Oct 2006 23:59 UTC
RE: A pity
by desNotes on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 01:18 UTC in reply to "A pity"
desNotes Member since:
2006-05-26

After reading the two articles Notparker linked, I can see why the city of Munich went with Linux over Microsoft. As was pointed out, it may be paying more initially, but over the long run they expect to be paying less and will be able to configure the desktops the way they are needed, not the way Microsoft specifies.

I have worked for several companies, both as an IT employee and not, and for the most part every Windows installation for non-programmers was set up the same. Not all of the MS Office applications were utilized by each person but they were still paid for and installed.

The city of Munich is setting a precedent which the IT world will be watching. Desktop configuration, OS updates, support, training, etc. will all be interesting to see in the coming months and years.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: A pity
by sbergman27 on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 01:49 UTC in reply to "RE: A pity"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""After reading the two articles Notparker linked, I can see why the city of Munich went with Linux over Microsoft. As was pointed out, it may be paying more initially, but over the long run they expect to be paying less and will be able to configure the desktops the way they are needed, not the way Microsoft specifies."""

To a great extent, Microsoft's business model depends upon there being a large number of people who don't think past the short term.

Those who think long term slip right through MS's net.

Let's hope that Munich's example makes it easier for other municipalities to see further down their own roads.

These kinds of migrations are never easy, but do result in tools and techniques that make it easier for the next fellow.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: A pity
by Hands on Mon 23rd Oct 2006 15:42 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: A pity"
Hands Member since:
2005-06-30

I was thinking much the same thing.

I have heard many people make comments to the effect that Linux has lost momentum, but I think that the reality has been that Linux (and Apple to some degree) have spurred competitive action from Microsoft. Microsoft has always had to compete with their own success, but now they are competing with the success of outside competitors. The resulting actions from Microsoft may have given the appearance that Linux and Apple have slowed down, but I think the competitive landscape will only get more fierce.

As initiatives like this one continue, open source tools will become more mature, and migrations away from a monopolized market with increase. I don't think Microsoft will become marginalized, but I do think that they will be force to become and remain more competitive as migrations and tools become cheaper and better. The result will be better Linux as well as a better Microsoft products for everyone.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A pity
by ramunas on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 09:54 UTC in reply to "A pity"
ramunas Member since:
2005-07-06

And you excluded additional software price, like antiviruses, compression programs, malware killers etc.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: A pity
by Accident on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 13:30 UTC in reply to "RE: A pity"
Accident Member since:
2005-07-29

"And you excluded additional software price, like antiviruses, compression programs, malware killers etc."

What price they're FREE! and you have the source code for them too.

Reply Score: 0

Odd name
by cptnapalm on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 00:02 UTC
cptnapalm
Member since:
2006-08-09

Why didn't they call it Munix?

Reply Score: 4

RE: Odd name
by Jedd on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 01:15 UTC in reply to "Odd name"
Jedd Member since:
2005-07-06

Yeah definately, Munix sounds cool.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Odd name
by Jody on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 05:55 UTC in reply to "RE: Odd name"
Jody Member since:
2005-06-30

Yeah definately, Munix sounds cool.

I agree, but it would probably take a long time to install ;)

PS. I thought SuSE won the Munich contract for 35.7 million?http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/technology/2003-07-13-micr...

What am I missing?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Odd name
by anda_skoa on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 10:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Odd name"
anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

PS. I thought SuSE won the Munich contract for 35.7 million?

No, SuSE and IBM did the viability study, presented some possible solutions and one of them got accepted.

The actual migration contract had a separate call for tenders and a group of small companies form Germany won that one.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Odd name
by WaccaWacca on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 12:54 UTC in reply to "Odd name"
WaccaWacca Member since:
2006-10-22

I agree, Munix would have been better, but Munich is München in German.

Reply Score: 2

Perspective
by elsewhere on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 01:45 UTC
elsewhere
Member since:
2005-07-13

From the article:
They're using FAI to automate installation of systems, along with LDAP to store lots of configuration information and GOsa as a user-friendly front-end to that configuration. They've integrated these to enable some very clever management features so that all aspects of the city-wide system can be maintained from one central point. As new machines are introduced onto the network, they can be configured into one class or another: simple desktop clients up to so-called "depot" servers, used as seeds for further clients. Individual user profiles can be tweaked, giving users access to new applications as they are needed. Shared resources like network storage and printers are set up automatically from the LDAP database. Access to USB storage devices can be controlled on a per-device, per-user basis for security.

Brilliant. See, details like this are what need to be discussed when talking about enterprise linux adoption. This is the kind of thing organizations need to be aware of.

Too often you see article after article about installers, default themes, Xgl and (lack of) media support. IT departments don't care. Talk about deployment, policy management, lockdown, centralized admin etc. THAT is what will get a smart CIO's attention.

As pointed out, organizations are still using NT. They clearly don't care about bling (or, frankly, useability). Give them stability, security and manageability and then they'll listen.

Certainly there are other issues, the application deficit being a significant one, but if you can increase the value of the platform then you diminish the significance of the application issue.

Good to see an instance where a linux deployment leverages it's inherent strengths rather than simply trying to be a no-cost pseudo-replacement for Windows. That's the only approach that will ultimately be successful.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Perspective
by orfanum on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 07:34 UTC in reply to "Perspective"
orfanum Member since:
2006-06-02

I wish I could up your score more - this is the most sense I have ever heard talked about regarding Linux on this site.

But note: "...a major part of the effort needed is in user training."

In other words, you can still be doing very intelligent things with Linux, do not have to be therefore simply "a no-cost pseudo-replacement for Windows" as elsewhere says, but you stil have to think hard about making the user friendly with Linux.

Und fuer unsere deutsche Leser - viel Glueck dabei: diese verdammt kluge Loesung haette nur in Deutschland vorkommen koennen!

Edited 2006-10-22 07:37

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Perspective
by dylansmrjones on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 07:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Perspective"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Hey, that damn smart solution has been made in other countries too ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Perspective
by orfanum on Mon 23rd Oct 2006 01:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Perspective"
orfanum Member since:
2006-06-02

Sure - I am just trying to keep the encouragement up in this case (being rhetorical has always been my weak point...;-)

Reply Score: 1

feels familiar
by squishyLime on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 01:48 UTC
squishyLime
Member since:
2006-09-27

Is it my imagination or does notparker appear in every discussion related to an open source article and start spouting off stock microsoft sales lines or going on about how great their latest fud initiative is?

if you look at his posting history could not 95+% of those posts be categorized as "unprompted pro-microsoft trolling of an open source topic"?

Reply Score: 4

v RE: feels familiar
by NotParker on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 02:42 UTC in reply to "feels familiar"
v Munich is a great counter example
by NotParker on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 02:36 UTC
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

You're probably being modded down for being lame as well as offensive.

Reposting is extremely offensive (as I told you yesterday), and it is lame or perhaps right out stupid to interprete the stats the way you do. I've told you that as well yesterday (and the day before that, and the day before that day as well).

You are only looking at the short-term costs, and completely forgets all about long-term costs. To pragmatic people that would most likely be considered either off-topic or downright offensive.

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Costs for upgrading software, costs for upgrading hardware, costs for support in relation to software failure (I've seen many of those with Windows Exchange Server+Access - takes a lot of time and Microsoft needs to be consulted everytime due to it being closed source. Very expensive).

The list is much longer, but you ought to understand the meaning of long-term costs.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Now you're starting to learn.

To the support costs you must also add the costs for downtime, work delayed or not done timely due to software failure (incl. legal costs in case somebody sues them or files a complaint).

However, with an in-house solution they can save the 90.000$ a year.

Reply Score: 1

kamil_chatrnuch Member since:
2005-07-07

sorry for asking, but how exactly is linux error-prone to software failure or downtime for that matter?

as for support costs, i would imagine, that paying for in-house developers + IT stuff, would be a more expensive solution, then a support contract [suse, etc.] + IT stuff.

anyway, i welcome anything alternative [even though, i'm not a linux fan], so good luck guys ;)

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Of course Linux systems can crash and have downtime. I haven't stated otherwise. I merely told NotParker to remember to count in the costs, since he only counted the support costs.

Actually in-house solutions tend to be cheaper, since you don't have to pay a company, but only the persons. And since you need System Administrators anyway, you might as well hire those that can solve such situations, and utilize them.

Most programmers are hired to work on in-house projects, typically in a bank or something akin to that.

Reply Score: 1

anda_skoa Member since:
2005-07-07

as for support costs, i would imagine, that paying for in-house developers + IT stuff, would be a more expensive solution, then a support contract [suse, etc.] + IT stuff.

Munich has been in a special situation regarding this: the migration is also a unification across their departments.


Currently almost every department has their own setup and the local IT staff has to do all the maintenance alone.
The move to Linux is also a move to the same base client software stack, which means more effective administration and local IT staff becoming available for department specific issues.

Reply Score: 1

NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

To the support costs you must also add the costs for downtime, work delayed or not done timely due to software failure (incl. legal costs in case somebody sues them or files a complaint).

However, with an in-house solution they can save the 90.000$ a year.


With imaginary people who get paid nothing?

Try and remember the Microsoft solution was 12 million cheaper.

I know I got modded down for pointing that out.

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

That wasn't why you were modded down. Now grow up.

The 12 mio. $ cut means nothing in the long term. You keep looking stupidly at short-term costs. How hard is it to understand that there is long-term costs as well?

The articles you posted links to explain pretty well why Munich chose Linux.

Btw: The cheapest solution is not always the best solution.

And oh... they can save the 90.000$ because they can fix the problems with the IT-staff they'll need anyway. Instead of having them calling Microsoft to solve the potential problems, Munich will use them to solve the problems directly.

In-house solutions tend to be better in the long term.

Reply Score: 0

GreatBunzinni Member since:
2005-10-31

With imaginary people who get paid nothing?

Please don't strategically ignore the gobs of people who are already under pay to support the MS Windows platform. Or, to put it in other terms, The city of Munich pays for IT people, whether they are there to manage Linux or MS. Also, please don't ignore the fact that Munich will end up with a lighter, easier to maintain, more flexible platform with uncomparably less problems, including security. And I almost forgot, with this migration Munich will not be held hostage by a company and forced to follow their strategic decisions whether they aprove of them or not.

Try and remember the Microsoft solution was 12 million cheaper.

Try to imagine that the MS pricetag would go to maintain a platform, where the linux price tag goes to migrating the current platform, which envolves much more work. Please don't ignore the fact that after that price is payed, the TCO of running Linux is a whole lot cheaper, specially having in mind that we have a XP to Vista migration coming soon, that costs about 250$ a seat to upgrade only the OS.

Oh and moreover, 100% of MS pricetag would be money which would leave the region whereas part of the Linux migration pricetag will go to local companies which are going to benefit from that plan. And I'm not talking about simple software retailers, who sell a glorified version of an off the shelf product. I'm talking about investment in the local hitech sector.

Reply Score: 3

Harald Member since:
2006-03-10

You are only looking at the short-term costs, and completely forgets all about long-term costs. To pragmatic people that would most likely be considered either off-topic or downright offensive.

Those 'short term' costs can be the difference between life and death for many small to medium sized businesses.

Reply Score: 4

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

The city of Munich is not such a small or medium sized business.

Besides that, a small or medium sized business would just use a gratis linux distribution or perhaps one of the BSD's.

Reply Score: 4

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Considering your posts so far that statement means nothing to me.

I will however grant you that some OSS-fanbois are quite sensitive, but the same goes for the opposite part.

Reply Score: 0

sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""It's the OSS fundies that are being over-sensitive again..."""

As a Linux advocate who is critical of the FSF fundamentalists, I would, in most cases, agree with you.

However, as was pointed out previously, a large percentage of NotParker's posts are not intended in a constructive way.

He is a persistent troll. Until he demonstrates that he is genuinely interested in open discussion, I think that voting down his off-topic posts as "off-topic" is reasonable.

Edited 2006-10-22 04:24

Reply Score: 5

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I don't hate Microsoft (though I do critisize them often - but the same goes for Gnome and KDE), and I'm not being modded down for that (I presume), so your theory is false.

Reply Score: 2

Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"a large percentage of NotParker's posts are not intended in a constructive way."

He's like the MS version of Moulinneuf.

Reply Score: 4

StephenBeDoper Member since:
2005-07-06

Based upon this post, your license to use the English language has been revoked for a period of on year.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Woot O_o

Please elaborate ;)

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Oh, btw. You mean "Based upon that post", right?

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I told you so. Reposting is offensive. Manipulating stats are offensive. Anti-MS fanboys and pragmatic people are going to punish that even though you do point out some interesting elements. I don't repost when I'm being modded down by you and your gang - or when I'm being modded down by Gnome/KDE/BSD-fanbois.

---

Choosing Windows would result in much higher long-term costs for Munich than choosing Linux or one of the BSD's. That's why they chose Linux. And add to that the limited time scope of Microsoft's support.

Posting a link to a 3 year old article doesn't do much good.

Reply Score: 1

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I'm not the one posting you down for the links you are posting.

The 12 mio. $ are peanuts in the long term. You'd know that, had you ever studied a budget for a county with a multimillion population.

You keep look at short term costs, instead of short term cost AND long term costs.

I'm not posting any referencens, because all I'm doing is pointing out that you need to count in the long term costs. There should be no need for me to reference to evidence of such long term costs. You learn about it at college (or whatever you have where you live).

Reply Score: 1

deb2006 Member since:
2006-06-26

Why do you think you're more clever than the city of Munich? They've calculated this whole thing, and they've even stopped it for a short period of time due to patent issues that might arise in the future. They've carried on and they're now ready.

Believe me, a big city in Germany does not choose Linux, because of any political issues. They've chosen it because in the long term it is financially much more attractive than Microsoft's offer for them. That's all there is to say about this issue.

Some other smaller cities have decided to go with Microsoft. Does anyone care about it? Certainly not. You only hear about Munich and Vienna because they _dare_ to take a different turn.

Edited 2006-10-22 09:46

Reply Score: 5

hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

"Why do you think you're more clever than the city of Munich? They've calculated this whole thing, and they've even stopped it for a short period of time due to patent issues that might arise in the future. They've carried on and they're now ready. "

So because he points at something most linux fanboys miss out on he's saying he's smarter then others?

"Believe me, a big city in Germany does not choose Linux, because of any political issues. They've chosen it because in the long term it is financially much more attractive than Microsoft's offer for them. That's all there is to say about this issue. "

Only time will tell if it is cheaper.

"Some other smaller cities have decided to go with Microsoft. Does anyone care about it? Certainly not. You only hear about Munich and Vienna because they _dare_ to take a different turn. "

First you claim that they don't do it for politics and then you say they do... you gotta make up your mind.
Your idea about why we only hear about Vienna and Munich made me smile... We dont' hear about others cities that select a OS with a not so loud bunch of fans that use it for hyping their system even more. But thats just my take on the situation...

Edited 2006-10-22 11:43

Reply Score: 2

h3rman Member since:
2006-08-09

>> "Some other smaller cities have decided to go with Microsoft. Does anyone care about it? Certainly not. You only hear about Munich and Vienna because they _dare_ to take a different turn. "

> First you claim that they don't do it for politics and then you say they do... you gotta make up your mind.


Where did anyone say that "dare to take a different turn" has anything to do with politics here?

Reply Score: 1

deb2006 Member since:
2006-06-26

The city of Munich doesn't have anything to do with "Linux fanboys" - wake up.

I said they took a different turn - that doesn't have anything to do with politics. They are insterested in what benefits their cities most - in these cases it's Linux. So what?

Every time a community or city dares to take something else than Microsoft - it's wrong, stupid etc. Why? Can't these people decide themselves what's best? Do they need the "support" of Redmond's fanboys? Certainly not.

For cities like Munich it is not important at all whether it's Microsoft, Linux, Solaris, Gameboy, Xbox or Humptydumpty OS etc. They have certain things they need to do in a certain time. And they need an OS to achieve that.

In the past there wasn't any discussion about that. It was MS. Period. Now they are able to select - and that is good. It's competition, my friend - and yes, sometimes Linux is going to win that competition.

Reply Score: 2

hamster Member since:
2006-10-06

"The city of Munich doesn't have anything to do with "Linux fanboys" - wake up. "

It seems your the one who should wake up and read what i write... i did'nt write that the city had anything to do with the fanboys.. i wrote that the fanboys uses it to hype their system even more.

"I said they took a different turn - that doesn't have anything to do with politics. They are insterested in what benefits their cities most - in these cases it's Linux. So what? "

Who says i give a rats ass about what they use..? I just pointed out that first it was claimed that it wasnt about politics and then it turns out that it was about politics. If they wanna use gnu/linux fine. It's not my problem.

"Every time a community or city dares to take something else than Microsoft - it's wrong, stupid etc. Why? Can't these people decide themselves what's best? Do they need the "support" of Redmond's fanboys? Certainly not. "

Wake up and smell the coffe lad... Just here in my post did you see me saying it was stupid to use gnu/linux? I would'nt use it for anything else then a play computer for my kid. But that doesnt change the fact that i did'nt say it was stupid that they want to use it.

"For cities like Munich it is not important at all whether it's Microsoft, Linux, Solaris, Gameboy, Xbox or Humptydumpty OS etc. They have certain things they need to do in a certain time. And they need an OS to achieve that. "

Your making things up again... You really should'nt do that you know. I never said anything about i wanted them to use Microsoft software or anyone else for that matter...

"In the past there wasn't any discussion about that. It was MS. Period. Now they are able to select - and that is good. It's competition, my friend - and yes, sometimes Linux is going to win that competition."

And i guess you somehow read in my post that i don't see competition as a good thing?

Reply Score: 1

What the hell is going on?
by hhcv on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 04:15 UTC
hhcv
Member since:
2005-11-12

I tell you what, I'll draw a line, and then all comments must on on topic:


__________________________________________

Reply Score: 3

RE: What the hell is going on?
by dylansmrjones on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 04:25 UTC in reply to "What the hell is going on?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, it has taken the city of Munich a long time to get this project going.

Reply Score: 0

Any screenshots?
by deb2006 on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 09:48 UTC
deb2006
Member since:
2006-06-26

Does anyone know where to find screenshots? The city of Vienna even distributes their Debian distribution.

Reply Score: 1

Troll?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 10:37 UTC
Thom_Holwerda
Member since:
2005-06-29

Why don't people just try to discuss with each other and convey points via arguments (gasp! Shock! Horror!) instead of playing the "troll" card, hmm? Playing the troll card kind of makes you like a troll yourself.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Troll?
by dylansmrjones on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 15:02 UTC in reply to "Troll?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

There's a lot of conveying points through arguments, and a few examples of playing the "troll" card. However, playing the "troll" card does not automatically make one a troll. In that regard you're clearly wrong.

Only if one pulls the "troll" card no matter what is written, do we have a troll.

But you cannot avoid people playing the "troll" card when certain persons violate net etiquette.

Too bad most information on LiMux is in German. It hurts my mind by bringing back school bench memories ;)

Reply Score: 0

RE[2]: Troll?
by NotParker on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 15:54 UTC in reply to "RE: Troll?"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

There's a lot of conveying points through arguments, and a few examples of playing the "troll" card. However, playing the "troll" card does not automatically make one a troll. In that regard you're clearly wrong.

Only if one pulls the "troll" card no matter what is written, do we have a troll.

But you cannot avoid people playing the "troll" card when certain persons violate net etiquette.


Like constantly accusing someone of being a troll for posting polite, factually referenced articles that are relevant?

well dylanmrjones, you are the troll.

Reply Score: 0

RE[3]: Troll?
by dylansmrjones on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 16:29 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Troll?"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

I'm not calling you a troll in this thread. And I'm not modding you down for the links you are posting.

You are not polite, you could be considered to be off-topic (though I think you have certain interesting points), you are constantly posting outdated Microsoft commercials (which is most annoying), and constantly misinterpreting stats (most annoying as well).

I agree that some people are a tad sensitive and mods you down too quickly, but if you want to avoid it you should take my advise.

Reply Score: 0

RE[4]: Troll?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 16:46 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Troll?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

Can we stop the discussion on the moderation? If you have complaints about moderation, keep them to yourself, or email them to us. They are off topic and do not contribute to the discussion.

Thank you.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[5]: Troll?
by dylansmrjones on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 16:56 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Troll?"
RE[5]: Troll?
by poohgee on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 17:03 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Troll?"
poohgee Member since:
2005-08-13

Off-topic

Agreed - BTW - are you no longer mod - or why can you be +sed & -sed ? hmm

But yeah keep your issues to yourselves please.

Constant moaning at eachother & off topic (i.e. not news item related) discussion give the impression that all your posts are not read worthy which as far as I could see actually was not always the case .

If someone is enoying - simply ignore them.
If you disagree with something - explain constructivly why .


On-topic :

I wished for the small report to be rather bigger.
But still interesting in how they are managing this soon to be 30000+ install base .

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Troll?
by sbergman27 on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 17:10 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Troll?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""Can we stop the discussion on the moderation? If you have complaints about moderation, keep them to yourself, or email them to us. They are off topic and do not contribute to the discussion."""

What OSNews needs is a metaforum where issues like the comment rating system can be discussed in an on-topic fashion, out in the open. Sequestering such discussions in private email is decidedly non-optimal.

The voting system here *does* have some serious problems which have never been addressed by the OSNews staff. My personal opinion is that it is because comments on the matter have been submitted via private email, where they are easily ignored, and not in a publicly viewable forum.

I would submit this kind of post to the OSNews MetaForum *if* we had one.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: Troll?
by Thom_Holwerda on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 17:32 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Troll?"
Thom_Holwerda Member since:
2005-06-29

If you have complaints with constructive explanations for having them, emailing them to us suffices. There is no need to complicate a news site by adding all sorts of meta stuff. What's next, a meta site about the meta site?

We have the meta blog where we announce changes and which is unmoderated, so you can offer critique on our new ideas. Whenever Adam made a change to the moderation system, it has been announced on the meta blog, with a prominent link displayed right atop the front page informing everyone of the change. THAT is the moment to have unmoderated discussion about new features or changes. If you find problems months and months after a new feature has been implemented, email us, and the person in charge (in the case of the moderation system, Adam) will take it into account.

That is more than enough. There is no reason to have a bloody forum specifically to whine about unfair moderations. Deal with the fact that community moderated forums are not perfect, email us if you have specific complaints (so not the general "it sucks and you stink" kind of complaints), and for the rest, keep the discussion on news stories ON TOPIC.

Reply Score: 1

RE[7]: Troll?
by sbergman27 on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 17:53 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: Troll?"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""There is no need to complicate a news site by adding all sorts of meta stuff."""

That is not very convincing.


"""We have the meta blog where we announce changes"""

That is not the same thing.


"""There is no reason to have a bloody forum specifically to whine about unfair moderations."""

That is not what I was suggesting, and you know it, right?

Why are you acting in such a defensive manner?

Reply Score: 0

More speed less haste
by moleskine on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 10:44 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

It's far too early to gauge in any detail how this project is working out, imho. The full picture probably won't become clear until a year or two after the rollout is complete.

Any sane person is going to wish the project every success, surely. But go easy on the speculation. There is enough of that already from those who'd like the whole thing to crash and burn so Microsofties can say "We told you so".

Edited 2006-10-22 10:44

Reply Score: 2

v hi
by Tom Sanderson on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 12:59 UTC
A virtual pat on the back
by oxleyn on Sun 22nd Oct 2006 15:29 UTC
oxleyn
Member since:
2005-10-04

I for one commend Munich's rollout of Debian/GUN/Linux. In these days of a MS dominated world it's nice to see an orginisation thinking in such a proactive manner.

Those of us in the know are are fully aware that you use the right tools to get the job done and I'm sure that for Munich they have established that Linux is the right tool for their needs.

Reply Score: 2

Maybe Munich is a bit like me.
by Dudesdad on Mon 23rd Oct 2006 02:20 UTC
Dudesdad
Member since:
2005-07-10

I had a guy come to my house and give me an estimate for some concrete work. His estimate was $5300.00.
I work in the construction industry so I roughly know the going price for concrete "flatwork".
His estimate was double the going rate. I told him I couldn't afford to do the work. He then came back with a counter offer of $3900.00 to do the work, with some reduction of quality of course. I told him that it was still out of my range, he then told me he could cut some corners and do it for $2900.00 (the actual value).
I then told the guy to shove off because he tried to rip me off in the first place.
I think that the city of Munich felt the same way.
When the head of the company has to fly in and give you a "Special Deal" you had better take notice of the tickling feeling in you butt because you are about to get screwed.

Reply Score: 2

Economics and Perspective
by Seth Quarrier on Mon 23rd Oct 2006 02:58 UTC
Seth Quarrier
Member since:
2005-11-13

Some people have pointed out that this is just a software installation so why should we care? Well the reason is that Munich is providing us a chance to see how a Linux setup compairs to the Microsoft equivalent, those of us who are interested in Linux are of course therefore interested. It is not out of hate for Microsoft per say, but rather just that it is already known how Microsoft performs in this arena as they are the dominate player and therefore uninteresting. It is exciting for the Linux fan that Munich found their solution less expensive. This does not mean that Linux is the solution for everything but it does tell us that it is competitive and that exciting. As for the pricing I would think it is fair to assume that Munich picked the advantageous solution for them by weighing long term and short term costs along with capacity. If this was a poor choice than let their tax payers decide, I however suspect that Linux is well ready for this type of deployment and that they will save money in the long term and will not be beholden to a American cooperation, which seems a compelling motivation in itself.

ps. NotParker reposting fifty times over is not the way to get yourself heard, I read your the post the first time and had I been reading at a higher mod level I would not have read your post at all so by reposting you did nothing but irritate people and that is why they got snippy.

Reply Score: 5

Re: RE[9]
by Darkelve on Mon 23rd Oct 2006 05:50 UTC
Darkelve
Member since:
2006-02-06

"Did he do the monkeydance too? Because that would have sold me on their solution."

Licenses, Licenses, Licenses! Licenses Licenses Licenses! Licenses, ... (etcetera)

(okay this may not be the most contributing post but it's fun to imagine it... :p )

Reply Score: 2