Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 1st Nov 2006 14:58 UTC, submitted by anonymous
PDAs, Cellphones, Wireless Microsoft will make a surprise announcement at the Nov. 1 launch of Windows CE 6.0, according to the Web's rumor-mill. In what would be its most substantial nod to the open-source movement, Microsoft is rumored to be opening up CE 6.0's entire kernel as 'shared source'. Update: It's official.
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Only the kernel?
by sbenitezb on Wed 1st Nov 2006 15:16 UTC
sbenitezb
Member since:
2005-07-22

That means nothing. Windows without the user interface is completely useless.

Reply Score: 1

v RE: Only the kernel?
by Sphinx on Wed 1st Nov 2006 15:21 UTC in reply to "Only the kernel?"
RE: Only the kernel?
by brother bloat on Wed 1st Nov 2006 15:29 UTC in reply to "Only the kernel?"
brother bloat Member since:
2005-07-06

That means nothing.

I disagree. I think this is a step in the right direction, no matter how small. I'll be interested to see where people go with this (if anywhere).

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Only the kernel?
by Rehdon on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:25 UTC in reply to "RE: Only the kernel?"
Rehdon Member since:
2005-07-06

"The right direction" leading ... where? Don't be fooled by the "shared source" tag, this has nothing to do with open source.

rehdon

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Only the kernel?
by Temcat on Wed 1st Nov 2006 21:54 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Only the kernel?"
Temcat Member since:
2005-10-18

The ability to at least look at the source will undoubtedly help the folks who have standardized on WinCE. But of course, if you develop OSS apps, you'd better keep away from this, since it can create all sorts of legal problems for you.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Only the kernel?
by frood on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:01 UTC in reply to "Only the kernel?"
frood Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm guessing the idea behind this is that creators of new mobile devices will be able to modify the kernel and use Windows CE rather than using embedded linux.

Edited 2006-11-01 16:01

Reply Score: 5

Too late, too little:
by deb2006 on Wed 1st Nov 2006 15:30 UTC
deb2006
Member since:
2006-06-26

Honestly, who really cares about this? Embedded devices don't need Microsoft at all, and the opening of the kernel sources is nice, but it means nothing. Open up the GUI and we'll start talking.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Too late, too little:
by CuriosityKills on Wed 1st Nov 2006 18:44 UTC in reply to "Too late, too little:"
CuriosityKills Member since:
2005-07-10

Open up the GUI and we'll start talking.
Yeah right so you can steal from it?

Ask Apple to Open their GUI source, they are based on free kernel still they don't open.

For embedded devices related development, kernel source matters a lot. It is a good move.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Too late, too little:
by CowMan on Thu 2nd Nov 2006 02:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Too late, too little:"
CowMan Member since:
2006-09-26

Given that GUI's are, well, primarily graphical in nature, it matters little whether you have the source or not; it's basically artwork and modes of interaction ("feel"). Easily ripped-off, I would think?

Reply Score: 2

Interesting...
by A.H. on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:02 UTC
A.H.
Member since:
2005-11-11

"...will make Windows CE more attractive as an alternative to Linux in many embedded applications and devices that require substantial customization of the OS"

So, shared source allows 3rd party to actually make changes to the original code, not just look at it? In any case I think the companies that are prepared to get their hands dirty doing substantial customizations will likely chose fully open alternatives.

Maybe MS can share-source Microsoft Bob to run on top of Win CE 6.0 kernel ;) )

Reply Score: 5

RE: Interesting...
by dylansmrjones on Wed 1st Nov 2006 19:27 UTC in reply to "Interesting..."
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Maybe MS can share-source Microsoft Bob to run on top of Win CE 6.0 kernel ;) )

Ohhh noooooo (imitating Lemmings)..

I don't know whether your statement should be considered funny or offensive - it's sort of both ;)

Reply Score: 2

Windows CE shared source.
by miguel on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:08 UTC
miguel
Member since:
2005-07-27

The Windows CE source code was available as shared source a few years ago, this is not a new development.

At the time (2-3 years ago) it was a big deal, am not sure this is a new development.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Windows CE shared source.
by broken_symlink on Thu 2nd Nov 2006 00:12 UTC in reply to "Windows CE shared source."
broken_symlink Member since:
2005-07-06

yep i still have the dvds of the win ce 4 source somewhere

Reply Score: 1

Shared Source=Closed Sourced
by zizban on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:27 UTC
zizban
Member since:
2005-07-06

MS's shared source program is a look but dont touch and you have to jump through a lot of hurdles to see the code, sign agreements, etc. In the end, you can see the source, but you can't build your own kernel or submit modifications back to MS. It's 99% hype.

And in the embedded space, seeing the kernel source isn't a big deal. If you pay money and demonstrate a need, QSSL will let you see the source to QNX's kernel.

Reply Score: 4

RE: Shared Source=Closed Sourced
by Marcellus on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:55 UTC in reply to "Shared Source=Closed Sourced"
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

That depends entirely on what license they put it under.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Shared Source=Closed Sourced
by markjensen on Wed 1st Nov 2006 17:37 UTC in reply to "Shared Source=Closed Sourced"
markjensen Member since:
2005-07-26

MS's shared source program is a look but dont touch and you have to jump through a lot of hurdles to see the code, sign agreements, etc. In the end, you can see the source, but you can't build your own kernel or submit modifications back to MS. It's 99% hype.

Microsoft has several "Shared Source" license types[1]:
Microsoft Permissive License (Ms-PL)
The Ms-PL is the least restrictive of the Microsoft source code licenses. It allows you to view, modify, and redistribute the source code for either commercial or non-commercial purposes. Under the Ms-PL, you may change the source code and share it with others. You may also charge a licensing fee for your modified work if you wish. This license is most commonly used for developer tools, applications, and components.
Microsoft Community License (Ms-CL)
The Ms-CL is a license that is best used for collaborative development projects. This type of license is commonly referred to as a reciprocal source code license and carries specific requirements if you choose to combine Ms-CL code with your own code. The Ms-CL allows for both non-commercial and commercial modification and redistribution of licensed software and carries a per-file reciprocal term.
Microsoft Reference License (Ms-RL)
The Ms-RL is a reference-only license that allows licensees to view source code in order to gain a deeper understanding of the inner workings of a Microsoft technology. It does not allow for modification or redistribution. This license is used primarily for technologies such as development libraries.

I think you are thinking only of the last one.

[1] http://www.windowsfordevices.com/articles/AT3157033949.html

Reply Score: 5

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

These three licenses are merely a minor part of the many "Shared Source" licenses Microsoft have floating around. But none-the-less I'll thank you for the content of the post. Nice reference ;)

Reply Score: 1

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Actually, according to the articles, there are no hurdles, just click on the button in VS, agree to the terms, and the source code is installed, no hurdles there. Read the articles, don't just make stuff up

Reply Score: 3

v who cares?
by eantoranz on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:49 UTC
This is not Open Source
by dylansmrjones on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:54 UTC
dylansmrjones
Member since:
2005-10-02

Microsofts "Shared Source"-licenses do not qualify as Open Source.

But of course it gives some good PR in the eyes of those who knows less than they should.

Reply Score: 5

RE: This is not Open Source
by Marcellus on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:58 UTC in reply to "This is not Open Source"
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

Because it's not GPL?
Because it's not OSI approved as being Open Source?
As I recall, Shared Source includes licenses that are perfectly qualified to be called Open Source license.

edit: changed from OSDL to OSI

Edited 2006-11-01 17:08

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: This is not Open Source
by dylansmrjones on Wed 1st Nov 2006 17:13 UTC in reply to "RE: This is not Open Source"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

It can easily be Open Source without being GPL. It can even be "Free Software" (a badly chosen name) without being GPL.

It can be Open Source without being OSI-approved. What matters are the principles. And "Shared Source" licenses will typically not give you the right to freely modify sources and distribute the modified sources or binaries based on these.

One has to watch out when looking at "Shared Source"-licenses and "Shared Source"-licensed sources.

Reply Score: 4

Irrelevant
by thjayo on Wed 1st Nov 2006 16:57 UTC
thjayo
Member since:
2005-11-11

Too many restrictions, and whoever is serious about taking someone else's code to work on will certainly not pick up Windows CE.

Reply Score: 0

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Yup, it's not Open Source.

It doesn't allow for modifications of sources unless they are for Windows CE only, and the license do not allow for distribution unless for Windows CE only.

With such terms it cannot be considered Open Source.

Reply Score: 2

Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

It is most certainly not closed source at least.

Like how "not Open Source" does not equal "Closed Source" and the other way around.

Disregarding any discussion on if it's called "open" or "shared" source, this is most certainly going to be appreciated by a lot of companies.
Companies that for one reason or another don't want to use GPL stuff, and for one reason or another don't want to base their product on BSD.

Reply Score: 2

dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

It's not closed source, it's not open source. It's shared source.

The reason why this can happen, is because it gives more freedom than closed source, but doesn't give you as much freedom as open source. So it ends in the middle, being neither (with this particular MS-license).

But no doubt it'll be useful for those who develop for Windows CE. They couldn't care less about porting it to non-Windows CE platform.

Reply Score: 2

Cults
by NotParker on Wed 1st Nov 2006 18:07 UTC
NotParker
Member since:
2006-06-01

Cults insist on "purity". To the OSS cult members, only the GPL is a "pure" open source license.

Anything less is heresy!

I don't like cults. Too many fanatics.

Reply Score: 5

fading memory
by PipoDeClown on Wed 1st Nov 2006 18:37 UTC
PipoDeClown
Member since:
2005-07-19

was it just a dream and had i not downloaded some previous kernelsource of CE many years ago? from msdn it was available for a short time.

Reply Score: 2

RE: fading memory
by CuriosityKills on Wed 1st Nov 2006 18:45 UTC in reply to "fading memory"
CuriosityKills Member since:
2005-07-10

Exactly, i thought it was always open for last few years.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: fading memory
by n4cer on Wed 1st Nov 2006 21:16 UTC in reply to "RE: fading memory"
n4cer Member since:
2005-07-06

Exactly, i thought it was always open for last few years.

It has been, but only a percentage.

In conjunction with the 10-year anniversary of Windows Embedded, 100 percent of the Windows Embedded CE 6.0 kernel is now available through the Microsoft® Shared Source program, an overall increase of 56 percent from previous versions of Windows Embedded CE. The Shared Source program provides full source-code access for modification and redistribution by device-makers (subject to the terms of a license agreement), who are under no obligation to share their final designs with Microsoft or others. Although the Windows operating system is a general-purpose computing platform designed for creating a consistent experience, Windows Embedded CE 6.0 is a tool kit device-makers use for building customized operating system images for a variety of non-desktop devices. By providing access to certain parts of the Windows Embedded CE source code, such as the file system, device drivers and other core components, embedded developers are able to choose the code they need, compile it, and build their own, unique operating systems, quickly bringing their devices to market.

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/press/2006/nov06/11-01MSKernelPR...

Reply Score: 2

hmm
by poundsmack on Wed 1st Nov 2006 19:53 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

i have been working with it since nov 1 austrlia time haha si its been 12 hours now and i can say there is more source code here than 5.0 had and yes ther kernel is there to. 6.0 is am anazing stem in the rihgt direction

u can se the launch even here
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/embedded/ce6launch/default.mspx

Edited 2006-11-01 20:01

Reply Score: 1

This means nothing
by flywheel on Wed 1st Nov 2006 20:08 UTC
flywheel
Member since:
2005-12-28

In real life this means nothing, except for the very few - an announcement like this is primarily for show. The only people that gets fooled is politicians.

Edited 2006-11-01 20:09

Reply Score: 0

RE: This means nohtin
by poundsmack on Wed 1st Nov 2006 20:24 UTC in reply to "This means nothing"
poundsmack Member since:
2005-07-13

you right this means nothing to people who do not use windows ce. bot for those who do this is a huge upgrade. and haveing platform builder as a plug in to Virtuan studio is great!

Reply Score: 2

shared source
by poundsmack on Wed 1st Nov 2006 20:44 UTC
poundsmack
Member since:
2005-07-13

the difference between shared source and open source is simple. microsoft gives you the option to see and even use there code they ahve made avalible in your aplications. now with GPL and other similar licences you have to them make your code open to. BUT with shared source you can use the code given by microsoft and not have to open your product so that your competitors can see your work.

Reply Score: 0

RE: shared source
by Marcellus on Wed 1st Nov 2006 22:00 UTC in reply to "shared source"
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

BUT with shared source you can use the code given by microsoft and not have to open your product so that your competitors can see your work.

Just like the freedom you get with BSD licensed code. You're not forced to release your changes or additions, and if you're only using a small part of something, you're not forced to open up the whole application.

Reply Score: 3

I know, I know!
by Buck on Wed 1st Nov 2006 20:45 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

They're just you know, testing waters before entirely open-sourcing Vista!

Reply Score: 1

don't really have choice
by collinm on Wed 1st Nov 2006 22:10 UTC
collinm
Member since:
2005-07-15

ms don't really have choice, device who use linux kernel increase every day

Reply Score: 1

'Shared source' is pretty perverted
by jessta on Thu 2nd Nov 2006 07:36 UTC
jessta
Member since:
2005-08-17

'Shared source' is a pretty perverted form of sharing.

"I'll give you a slice of my pizza, as long as you don't eat it. You can look at it and tell me if you think it could be better(i.e flies I should remove) and you can also see if it will go well with a soup you're making. But then you have to give it back to me so I can sell it back to you and don't try makin your own pizza after you've seen mine, because I'll know you stole my ideas"

Not really the kind of sharing I was taught as a kid.

- Jesse McNelis

Reply Score: 0

v ho-hum
by TomB7 on Thu 2nd Nov 2006 13:32 UTC
NicSagez-MSFT
Member since:
2006-11-09

Just for clarification, the Windows Embedded CE Kernel and all the 3.9M lines of code that ship "In the Box" with Windows Embedded CE can not only be looked at, but can also be modified and redistributed for commercial or non-commercial purposes. In addition, if someone modifies the code, he can chose to keep those modifications for himself or he can share them with other developers.

You can find out more information about the Shared Source programs for Windows Embedded CE on the following links:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/sharedsrccode/cessl...
http://msdn.microsoft.com/embedded/usewinemb/ce/sharedsrccode/defau...

Nic Sagez
Product Manager, Windows Embedded, Microsoft

Reply Score: 1