Linked by Thom Holwerda on Wed 22nd Nov 2006 22:51 UTC
Linux While Microsoft may cast the Nov. 2 patent cooperation agreement it pushed on new partner Novell Inc. as a way to protect corporate users of the SUSE Linux operating system from potential lawsuits, CIOs today said they weren't worried in the first place.
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What about now?
by ma_d on Wed 22nd Nov 2006 23:18 UTC
ma_d
Member since:
2005-06-29

Are they worried now? Or do they think this is all just FUD?

Reply Score: 1

RE: What about now?
by Soulbender on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 03:19 UTC in reply to "What about now?"
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"Or do they think this is all just FUD?"

It *is* FUD. Users don't need any protection because they can't be sued for patent infringement. This "protection from lawsuit" thing is an awesome publicity stunt. It's protection from a non-existant threat.
Using a product that infringes on some patent is *not* patent infringement, creating and selling a product that infringes on patents is.
You don't have to be Einstein to understand this. Just imagine if every consumer everywhere had to research every aspect of any product they buy to make sure it does not infringe on some patent somewhere? That would be "great" for the economy and by great i mean disastrous.
Retarded stuff like this only flies in IT. Heck, not even used-car salesmen would stoop this low.

Edited 2006-11-23 03:20

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: What about now?
by wirespot on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 09:10 UTC in reply to "RE: What about now?"
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

That's because the IT and music/film industry tries to give new meanings to things that used to be clear, and by "new meanings" I mean stuff like "black is white".

Whenever you buy something, like a used car, once the deal is over, that's it. The car is yours to do as you please with it. The seller can't come after you and make you agree to more crap after that, can't take it back, can't cripple it, can't force you to ditch it and buy another one from him.

But not with a software kit or a music CD or a movie, oh no. Here, they try to tell you what you can and can't do with the CD or DVD you bought, and the software will go dead on you or revoke your usage rights at the producer's whim. They try to keep all competition from innovating or improving or producing anything new, so they can sell basically the same things over and over, for more and more money. You have to be really stupid or ignorant to take something like this.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: What about now?
by Almindor on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 09:28 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: What about now?"
Almindor Member since:
2006-01-16

But not with a software kit or a music CD or a movie, oh no. Here, they try to tell you what you can and can't do with the CD or DVD you bought, and the software will go dead on you or revoke your usage rights at the producer's whim. They try to keep all competition from innovating or improving or producing anything new, so they can sell basically the same things over and over, for more and more money. You have to be really stupid or ignorant to take something like this.

This is specific to the US. In any other country I know EULAs are actually not legal. Eg: they hold no legal value. For all I care I can install windows here and piss on their EULA. Technically I could sue them to force me to accept something which law doesn't allow (even if I accept the EULA it's not binding because only license terms which are binding are those you accept at the transaction, not sometime you open the box).

I think US should cut the crap and get the balls to drop patents and EULAs.

Edited 2006-11-23 09:28

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: What about now?
by twenex on Fri 24th Nov 2006 05:33 UTC in reply to "RE: What about now?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

What a shame I can't mod you up, because you're already at 5!

Reply Score: 2

It's FUD
by latte on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 00:09 UTC
latte
Member since:
2006-07-19

Microsoft - either ***PUT UP*** or ***SHUT UP***!

I don't believe a word you've said about this "IP infringement" nonsense, so if you want to show that I'm wrong .....

************ PROVE IT!!!!!! ************

Reply Score: 5

RE: It's FUD
by Xaero_Vincent on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 01:23 UTC in reply to "It's FUD "
Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18

If you think about it, Linux and most other operating systems (FreeBSD, Solaris, and even Zeta) have some support for reading and/or writing to FAT32 and NTFS partitions. These are Microsoft patents that could be legally enforced.

Vertical and horizontal scroll bars on program windows are Microsoft patents. The task bar, start button, and system tray are patented as well. These exist in KDE, Gnome, Xfce, so on.

There are probably several other things that GNU/Linux *AND* other OS's infringe upon. If removed usability would be effectively crippled.

Edited 2006-11-23 01:25

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: It's FUD
by dylansmrjones on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 01:52 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Several of these elements existed years before MS patented them. The patents would most likely not hold in court. MS has patented them in order to protect itself against other patent holders. It would backfire anyway. The only result would be FLOSS-projects moving from USA to european countries, Japan and other civilised areas.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[3]: It's FUD
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 02:16 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: It's FUD "
RE[3]: It's FUD
by wirespot on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 09:18 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: It's FUD "
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

You're generally right, except for the Japan bit. Japanese companies are pretty much just as patent-crazy as the US companies (hell, big corporations everywhere are), and their current legislation is in favor of software patents. So Europe is pretty much the only place left holding the fort.
http://swpat.ffii.org/gasnu/jp/index.en.html

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: It's FUD
by John Nilsson on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 13:35 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: It's FUD "
John Nilsson Member since:
2005-07-06

The patents would most likely not hold in court.
How many FLOSS-developers do you know that has the $5Million necessary to find out? A patent doesn't have to "hold up in court" it just has to exist.

The only result would be FLOSS-projects moving from USA to european countries, Japan and other civilised areas.
As things stand right now it won't be long before software patents is forced upon the rest of the world.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: It's FUD
by gustl on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 14:40 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: It's FUD "
gustl Member since:
2006-01-19

"How many FLOSS-developers do you know that has the $5Million necessary to find out?"

Just about every free software developer would just have to post the lawsuit motions on Groklaw to get all the support he could possibly need, if Microsoft would really try to sue him.

I think it would turn into a full-blown multi-front patent-public opinion-politic-legal war between the free software community and Microsoft.

I guess there would be several projects in USA set up to swamp the USPTO with bogus patent applications AND patent revocation requests, just to hog up USPTO resources.
At the same time prior art would be found to get rid of the Microsoft patents, while again others will be nagging their Senators and Congressmen to get rid of software and business method patents.

I think Microsoft might get some short time FUD value out of such a lawsuit, but would loose big time in the long run.

The SCO story has told Microsoft one thing: Do not threaten a seemingly loose and in-fighting community which knows how to self-organize, because the combined knowledge, power and effeciveness once they agree on working towards a common goal is hard to match by corporate structures.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: It's FUD
by dylansmrjones on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 14:47 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: It's FUD "
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Update: It looks like software patents won't happen in european countries.

It's more likely that USA will keep losing steam in the IT-sector, in case USA sticks with software patents. The new leader will be India, with Europa ahead of USA.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: It's FUD
by m_abs on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 17:58 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: It's FUD "
m_abs Member since:
2005-07-06

Interesting, do you have a link to something confirming that good news?

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: It's FUD
by dylansmrjones on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 18:39 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: It's FUD "
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, it happened 1Ĺ year ago, so it is hardly news. At the moment there is no debate in EU in regard to software patents. At July 6th, 2005 software patents was finally rejected by EU-parliament with 648 of 680 votes. And at the moment nothing happens except for some minor talks. It'll take something like 5-10 years before the question will pop up again.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/4655955.stm
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/itmanagement/0,1000000308,39207478,00.htm

The last one containts this paragraph: "The future of the directive is currently unclear. It is possible that a revised version could be debated in the future, but back in March Charlie McCreevy, commissioner for the Internal Market, said the Commission would not resubmit a new directive if the Parliament chose to reject the current version."

This one --> http://news.com.com/2100-1012-6118063.html
does however show that the war isn't over. US companies and the US government is still actively trying to circumenvent international conventions and the constitutions in european countries.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: It's FUD
by angryrobot on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 02:59 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
angryrobot Member since:
2006-04-26

>Vertical and horizontal scroll bars on program windows are Microsoft patents. The task bar, start button, and system tray are patented as well. These exist in KDE, Gnome, Xfce, so on.

That just sounds too crazy to be true. What are the patent numbers? I gotta see these...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: It's FUD
by Soulbender on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 03:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: It's FUD "
Soulbender Member since:
2005-08-18

"What are the patent numbers? I gotta see these..."
Taskbar with Start menu:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5757371.html

Couldnt find anything on the scrollbars or systray though.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: It's FUD
by mjones on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 17:06 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: It's FUD "
mjones Member since:
2006-06-14

The taskbar with start menu was patented in 1995-Dec-14 so it expires in 2015-Dec-14. 9 years from now.
I could seen the free GUIs being reworks for that long
to avoid it.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: It's FUD
by thjayo on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 13:06 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
thjayo Member since:
2005-11-11

Those are not valid outside United States, darling ;)

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: It's FUD
by SlackerJack on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 16:54 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
SlackerJack Member since:
2005-11-12

------------------------------------------------------
"If you think about it, Linux and most other operating systems (FreeBSD, Solaris, and even Zeta) have some support for reading and/or writing to FAT32 and NTFS partitions. These are Microsoft patents that could be legally enforced.

Vertical and horizontal scroll bars on program windows are Microsoft patents. The task bar, start button, and system tray are patented as well. These exist in KDE, Gnome, Xfce, so on.

There are probably several other things that GNU/Linux *AND* other OS's infringe upon. If removed usability would be effectively crippled."

------------------------------------------------------

And what about Mac OS X, will Microsoft sue them and every other OS too?

It's pure FUD.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: It's FUD
by twenex on Fri 24th Nov 2006 05:36 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

I read somewhere - sorry, I've forgotten where - that MS claimed that they have only ever sued ONCE over patents.

The patent thing is just a smokescreen. What they REALLY want to do, as most people so far seem to have said here, is to destroy Linux through FUD.

We have a responsibility to make sure that the people who don't see this, get an eye-opener.

Reply Score: 3

v RE: It's FUD
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 01:31 UTC in reply to "It's FUD "
RE[2]: It's FUD
by MamiyaOtaru on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 06:40 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
MamiyaOtaru Member since:
2005-11-11

Bruce Perens admitted it:

"Let's be truthful about software patents: there can be no non-trivial computer program, either proprietary or Free, that does not use methods that are claimed in software patents currently in force and unlicensed for use in that program."


You trumpet that as if it only applies to OSS. If a patent war starts, MS is in the crapper too, which is not something about which you can honestly claim to be ignorant. It's MAD (that stands for something. You should know what it is).

Reply Score: 5

v RE[3]: It's FUD
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 07:02 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: It's FUD "
RE[4]: It's FUD
by merkoth on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 11:29 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: It's FUD "
merkoth Member since:
2006-09-22

The rest of the cultists trumpet the opposite and insist there are no patent infringements in Linux and scream and call Microsoft and Novell names.

I'm kind of tired of reading all this "cultist" crap. If I'm a cultist just by defending my ideals and freedom, so be it.

And please, before posting crap, RTFA and RTFC. If you read most of our comments you'll see that almost no one is claiming that there are no patents infrigements in Linux. What people want to see is where and how is Linux infringing those patents. The sources are there, just point to the code and we'll see.

Edited 2006-11-23 11:30

Reply Score: 3

v RE[5]: It's FUD
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 17:18 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: It's FUD "
RE[6]: It's FUD
by Shkaba on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 21:07 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: It's FUD "
Shkaba Member since:
2006-06-22

McSoft IS lying, HAS lied, and WILL lie!!! Why is this so unbelievable to you? Do I need to remind you of their lies?

Ballmer prays that there is indeed A patent infringement in Linux and that community can't find it just so that he can continue to spread FUD.

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: It's FUD
by hal2k1 on Fri 24th Nov 2006 00:46 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: It's FUD "
hal2k1 Member since:
2005-11-11

//When lawsuits occur, surprise is helpful. Microsft doesn't have to show you the cards on your schedule.//

According to this article:

http://www.itbusinessedge.com/blogs/osb/index.php/2006/11/22/if-lin...

... you are probably incorrect.

According to the comments:
"The thing that really makes this suspicious is that notice is a significant component of damages in a patent infringement action. Thatís why you see patent numbers on products and packages.

If Microsoft thinks itís sufficient to say that Linux has somehow infringed something, they are wrong. Anybody can say that about anything. It has no weight. If Microsoft actually cares about a patent recovery, not only should they provide specifics, they need to."


... and ...

"I'm not a lawyer, but I think that, if a patent holder is aware that someone is using the patent without their permission, and if they then fail to issue a "cease and desist" order, then they have waived any enforcement of the patent."

... you are entirely incorrect.

Reply Score: 3

v RE[7]: It's FUD
by NotParker on Fri 24th Nov 2006 01:24 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: It's FUD "
RE[4]: It's FUD
by twenex on Fri 24th Nov 2006 11:02 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: It's FUD "
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Better a cult of thousands than a cult of 1.

I bet even a lot of die-hard MS supporters would run a mile from this one.

Are you Steve Ballmer, by any chance?

Reply Score: 2

v RE[3]: It's FUD
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 17:15 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: It's FUD "
v RE[2]: It's FUD
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 17:14 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
RE: It's FUD
by Marcellus on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 06:15 UTC in reply to "It's FUD "
Marcellus Member since:
2005-08-26

Instead of continuing your pissfests about this, get the major Linux vendors and FSF to talk to MS to either get a list of infringements or get a blanket statement that MS won't sue them over any possible infringement, if there is any.

Deny all you want that there are infringements, it's highly unlikely that Linux distributions are free of any MS patents.

Now, if MS WANTED to sue, they would have done that long ago. I guess it's hard for people to understand that they don't WANT to do that.
Get an agreement or something and be done with it instead of continuing the pissfest.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: It's FUD
by l3v1 on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 08:53 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
l3v1 Member since:
2005-07-06

Deny all you want that there are infringements, it's highly unlikely that Linux distributions are free of any MS patents.

We could probably find one or two. But thing is, we could easily strip some or most of them out and live with it and let MS loose every possible grip they eventually might think they had, and on the other hand, we could probably also identify some parts in MS products that could be questionable. Probably nobody wants a patent war here, the tactic is probably to implant some amount of doubt and try to squeeze the rein a bit to show who's the gang leader here, and eventually grab some money.

Reply Score: 2

As long as it exposes Microsoft's FUD
by robilad on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 12:54 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
robilad Member since:
2006-01-02

I'm all for continuing it.

Nothing says 'we hate our customers' like threatening to sue them like Ballmer repeatedly did in the last weeks.

Microsoft's worst enemy is Microsoft's hubris. We should keep suppling them with as much rope as they need to hang themselves.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: It's FUD
by gustl on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 14:58 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
gustl Member since:
2006-01-19

Well, I know that such an agreement would have to look like: Redhat, IBM, OSDL, ... agree they will not sue Microsoft or their customers for patent infringement.

In turn, Microsoft agrees to not sue any distributor or user of FOSS for distributing or using said FOSS.

The FSF and many others would definitely agree to such a contract, but Microsoft will not, because everyone else could still sue THEM.

Microsoft does not enter into contracts which leave them at a slight disadvantage. Microsoft also does not trust someone, they are a sad lot.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: It's FUD
by dylansmrjones on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 16:55 UTC in reply to "RE: It's FUD "
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Well, there are no infringements in Denmark ;)

Not only have we Free Speech - we have also Free Software ;)

(However, we don't have fireproof embassies).

Reply Score: 1

At a loss
by wonea on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 00:30 UTC
wonea
Member since:
2005-10-28

I'm still at a loss on this point. What have Microsoft gain from this? There never gonna hear the end of this! Where living in an echo chamber that is the internet, and they've just shot yourself in the foot!

Hey, Microsoft give Ballmer the boot, and stop this nonsense!

Reply Score: 5

RE: At a loss
by wirespot on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 09:33 UTC in reply to "At a loss"
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

It's probably a long term strategy, and the finer points are only known to them. From what's immediately apparent, they are attempting several things at once.

First, a sort of "divide and conquer" strategy: get some famous Linux vendors to side with you in order to scare and confuse competing open-source businesses and their clients. Hurt FLOSS where it counts: in the claim it can be a viable commercial model (not with actual facts, with FUD, but it can be effective). Most importantly, no matter the outcome, they've now gained a foothold in the business world of GNU/Linux.

Second, muddle the "open source" concept by appearing to play nice and accept it. They're actively trying to make people forget the concept of "free software", particulary the "free" part, and to get them, individuals and businesses alike, to percieve "open source" as a sort of curiosity, a nice thing but not serious in the long term. "Sure we like open source, little girl", they say smiling patronizingly as they pat the head of the 5yr old wide eyed kid. That's the sort of image they want open source to have.

Third, should the deal with Novell bomb after all, the ones who get it in the neck worst are Novell and SuSE Linux. And let's admit it, SuSE has done some nice things for Linux. Regardless of their business decisions, it will be sad to see one of the big Linux distro destroyed, especially in this manner. But they've betrayed the free community (although it's not too late to apologize and come back), and after the deal falls down they'll be parias in the corporate world too (for purely business reasons, such as stock falling rock bottom). Nowhere left to turn at that point.

Fourth, and this is just speculation, they may attempt injecting their own technologies in well known FLOSS software packages, in their well known embrace and extend style. Prime candidates are the Open Office and Mono projects. Open Office because the developers are keen on incorporating stuff that will make OO more compatible with MS Office (such as better VBS support). Mono is easy, because Novell controls it at least partially. For now the Samba team has taken a proactive defensive stance and will probably be hard to get in there. I'm still waiting to see if Microsoft will have the nerve to offer drivers and DRM support to the kernel team, and if Linus will be so blind as to put functionality before the free software ideology and try to accept them.

Edited 2006-11-23 09:42

Reply Score: 5

RE: At a loss
by bibe on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 13:28 UTC in reply to "At a loss"
bibe Member since:
2005-07-09

Yeah Ballmer is bad for MS but he isn't that bad for anybody else. It's good they have a guy like Ballmer there and I don't believe anybody could kick him anyway, he is too far up in the food chain. The thing is that Ballmer has a huge ego and isn't really a stratigic talker and mostly says what he thinks not like the empty "lawyer PR talk" his company usually gives away to public. It's alyways a good clue to what ppl in MS really think. I mean just look at this guys ability to control himself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc">

Edited 2006-11-23 13:29

Reply Score: 1

Step with caution
by flanque on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 00:42 UTC
flanque
Member since:
2005-12-15

I'd be suspect as to what's going on here. Ultimately we do not know what Microsoft and/or Novell are planning or doing behind the scenes here.

Does that mean there's something legally or financially to fear for Linux vendors? Perhaps, perhaps not. Microsoft wouldn't have done this if not for a reason. You can be sure of that.

Frankly, the whole "OS Wars" has been going on for so long it's lost its worth. There's been so much FUD from both camps that I feel it's lost its impact and I simply move onto the next article whenever I see something that is likely to incite it.

Edited 2006-11-23 00:46

Reply Score: 2

RE: Step with caution
by wirespot on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 09:36 UTC in reply to "Step with caution"
wirespot Member since:
2006-06-21

The moment you stop caring is when you lose. It's exactly what those who spread FUD want you to do: to step aside and let them do whatever they please.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Step with caution
by flanque on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 11:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Step with caution"
flanque Member since:
2005-12-15

Well there's a strong difference between not caring about what somebody says on a message board or in an online article, verses caring through looking objectively at the data you have and making as best as possible an informed decision about what you implement.

Reply Score: 1

A cunning plan, SteveB
by robilad on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 02:28 UTC
robilad
Member since:
2006-01-02

Dear Steve Ballmer, please do your best to keep threatening to sue your own customers unless those customers run SUSE Linux in their hybrid environments. You're doing great.

Threatening one's own customers worked perfectly as a revenue model for SCO's Darl McBride, after all, so ... knock yourselves out, guys.

Edited 2006-11-23 02:29

Reply Score: 4

let's see some documentation
by buff on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 02:36 UTC
buff
Member since:
2005-11-12

I would like to see a listing of all the code MS claims infringes on their IP. Does it exist anywhere? If you are going to make a claim you need to have documented proof.

Edited 2006-11-23 02:37

Reply Score: 2

Thinking outside the box...
by Decius on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 03:21 UTC
Decius
Member since:
2006-01-03

First a little historical refresher...

In 2003 Steve Ballmer wrote a memo identifying Linux as a threat, and how companies such as IBM turning to Linux as part of their business strategy was lending credence to the platform. http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-1013124.html Around this time frame Novell acquired Ximian, and thus SUSE Linux. Microsoft has had a hate-hate relationship with Novell since the days of "Operation Visine", and with this acquisition 'Big Red', gained a new lease on life. http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1728103,00.asp

After(?) this acquisition Microsoft launched the 'Get the Facts' campaign and made a bid for Novell users (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1733353,00.asp and http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1728103,00.asp). Neither of these bids met with extraordinary success and we fast-forward to this year.

I'll cite two articles from this year, from OSNews, http://www.osnews.com/story.php/15029/First-Look-Novells-SLED-10 and http://www.osnews.com/story.php/15412/SLED-10-Is-a-Linux-Distro-Win... , and so we have a serious contender for the workstation. The difficulty with competing with any Linux distribution is that you're not really dealing with a single business entity, but rather a business distribution channel for the work of thousands of individual contributors, that you simply can't get to, but which is the life blood of OSS. Cut blood flow to the the brain and an organism dies. Novell has not exactly been swimming in positive publicity for their recent deal. If developers become leary of contributing code, or users who wanted to break away from dealing with Microsoft feel betrayed, then Microsoft has successfully weakened a resurging competitor and opened the way for better adoption of their late offering, Vista.

This is way of MS using patents/litigation, without actually resorting to image damaging litigation, and it spreads the FUD.

Edited 2006-11-23 03:25

Reply Score: 3

RE: Thinking outside the box...
by Lunitik on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 07:05 UTC in reply to "Thinking outside the box..."
Lunitik Member since:
2005-08-07

"weakened a resurging competitor"

Novell? Resurgant? Have you been looking at their revenue statements?

No one buys into what Novell is selling because, imo, no one really knows... they are an open source company, but they have a whole suite of applications that are proprietary... they're a proprietary company, but they're leveraging open source....

They made Netware look bad by pushing another operating system on customers.... and even if its not, most decision makers wont' care about that so much...

Novell just seems to be jumping on any band wagon that looks like it could make them a buck.

Novell will never be successful again until they commit to ONE strategie, and "mixed source' doesn't count as comitting.

Reply Score: 1

BluenoseJake Member since:
2005-08-11

Netware didn't need any help looking bad, it did that all it's own, by having inconsistant toolsets, a half-assed LDAP implementation and reliant on obsolete filesystems

Reply Score: 1

you're kidding, right ?
by fredouil on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 04:24 UTC
fredouil
Member since:
2006-01-08

"several inquisitional type European countries would not rate as civilized. "

do you really prefer the US system where the richer wins ? do you call that civilized ?

Only lawyers are enjoying this system/Tax, you cannot do anything without them and it is a terrible waste of money, energy for the society at whole.

Reply Score: 5

It is 2002 all over again...
by capricorn_tm on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 07:56 UTC
capricorn_tm
Member since:
2005-12-31

Remember when SCO started the lawsuit on UNIX? Aside that we knew from the first moment that something stunk and heavily, at the moment non many noticed a curios side effect of that lawsuit.

In fact in that time the licence contract on NT was expiring and companies had to decide what to do with their IT dept. Surprise surprise? After that lawsuit company bought Server 2003 as their OS.

What happens now You Ask? Easy, Vista is coming out in January and they have to make SURE that even if companies wait for the first service pack, they do NOT do something that HORRIBLE as waiting for the XP contract to end ( somwhere between Juni and end of this year if I'm not mistaken) and pass to Kubuntu ( God I so would love that, but it will probably be SUSE or Mandriva in France).

I so Do love Ballmer, he is such charming Gentleman.

Reply Score: 5

RE: It is 2002 all over again...
by pecisk on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 11:04 UTC in reply to "It is 2002 all over again..."
pecisk Member since:
2005-10-20

Not quite.

SCO claims where outright lies to gain some temporary benifit. They tried to pull legal scheme, mudding waters and creating some kinda "legal precedent".

This is not the same with Microsoft this time - software patents are real and there is possibility that Linux and systems build around it violates several of them. HOWEVER, what is not said, that patents and ligititation about them doesn't work that way - first, you should proove that developer of code who violates patents did it knowingly, t.i. he is AWARE about CONCRETE patent (not about some posibility). And you should inform developer. And only if he doesn't remove code, then you can go to court.

Yes, Microsoft overblows posibility of real loss of Linux user in court (which is really not that possible), but in some way, it has some shreds of truth. What we MUST address instead of Novell bashing and calling Microsoft a evil empire, that patents doesn't work that way that you can troll about it everyone, going around and requiring money. Yes, it worked in the past, but only because lawyers told CEOs to just pay, ignoring that you can sway away patent troll easily with just complying with request removing patented code.

Reply Score: 1

Good luck
by marafaka on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 14:03 UTC
marafaka
Member since:
2006-01-03

Everybody but one company and a half understand, that operating systems are converging, becoming commodity and need to be seen as a precious social platform for the next generation. Free software is putting an end to unhealthy business practices in IT and the customers will only benefit.

Microsoft will try to prolong this battle, but their next big operating system will probably be some kind of BSD with custom GUI and DotNET platform, and they'll try to capitalize on that. Sound familiar, but do they have a chance?

It't tough for a big, fat, odd shark in a sea of small companions, when it starts bleeding.

Reply Score: 3

Re: Then they fight you.
by aGNUstic on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 16:21 UTC
aGNUstic
Member since:
2005-07-28

Anyone who knows me knows I follow the teachings of Satyagraha. It's Gandhi's socially active `Truth Force` for those who don't know.

The worst thing to do to a tyrant, yes I said a tyrant, is to completely ignore them. Do not to do as they order or demand.

Tyrants, political or corporate, always fall.

In the case of McSoft (avoiding a trademark here) and its corporate idiot (mentioning no names) the best we can do is to simply refuse to comply with any of McSoft's orders and demands.

I have no fear of McSoft, its imperial tyrant, or any of it corporate idiots! McSoft contributes `zero` to my world and I can function completely without it.

In fact, I make an excellent living without it - hint.

Edited 2006-11-23 16:24

Reply Score: 2

Ribbon UI
by bungle on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 16:38 UTC
bungle
Member since:
2006-08-21

Well, the whole thing is that Novell has a patent for Ribbon UIs, :-)

PS. I'm just spreading FUD, but don't blame me, MS started it first.

Edited 2006-11-23 16:39

Reply Score: 1

RE: Ribbon UI
by dylansmrjones on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 16:57 UTC in reply to "Ribbon UI"
dylansmrjones Member since:
2005-10-02

Honestly.. does Novell have such a patent? O_o

In that case... Can I please have the patent for breathing? It's sort of my invention you know ;)

Reply Score: 1

v Things cultists don't want to hear
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 17:14 UTC
Actually
by Sphinx on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 19:49 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

What I think he meant was, "you owe us for being such a big greed driven evil monopoly that it drove you to elevate a hobbyist os clear into the main stream and kick our ass", and if so he's right. If you had managed and maintained windows properly there wouldn't even be any room for such a thing. Thanks.

Reply Score: 2

v RE: Actually
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 21:24 UTC in reply to "Actually"
RE[2]: Actually
by stestagg on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 23:03 UTC in reply to "RE: Actually"
stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

You have to be carefull about the terms you use. When you mention revenue, do you really mean that? because Linux is free, unless you buy support (a small fraction of the market) then most linux installs will not be registered in revenue counts.

Reply Score: 1

v RE[3]: Actually
by NotParker on Thu 23rd Nov 2006 23:10 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Actually"
RE[4]: Actually
by Sphinx on Fri 24th Nov 2006 14:32 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Actually"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

So those numbers don't actually reflect anything to do with user share.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Actually
by xiaokj on Sat 25th Nov 2006 09:59 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Actually"
xiaokj Member since:
2005-06-30

NotParker, thats really enough... First IDC, then Gartner...

And we have already pointed out that revenue counts aren't at all useful. I can't think of anything to say about Gartner, esp since we know its revenue sources...

Anyway, please do stop it. I'm actually going to be surprised to see your comments above 0 rating. Please.

And if you are going to post off-topic, here or elsewhere, the majority of the OSNews community will continue to mod you down (though you aren't off-topic this time)

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Actually
by NotParker on Sun 26th Nov 2006 01:36 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Actually"
NotParker Member since:
2006-06-01

NotParker, thats really enough... First IDC, then Gartner...

And we have already pointed out that revenue counts aren't at all useful. I can't think of anything to say about Gartner, esp since we know its revenue sources...


You can fantasize all you like. But business people pay large sums to IDC and Gartnet for their studies and have fait in the methodology.

Anyway, please do stop it. I'm actually going to be surprised to see your comments above 0 rating. Please.

All my comments get modded down because the cult is thin skinned. They REALLY HATE the well referenced ones. It drives them bonkers!

And if you are going to post off-topic, here or elsewhere, the majority of the OSNews community will continue to mod you down (though you aren't off-topic this time)

And I'll repost. Because the cultists in the "community" hate anything that causes them to think. They prefer regurgitation of the cult leaders sayings. Kind of like Maoists.

Edited 2006-11-26 01:36

Reply Score: 1