Linked by Thom Holwerda on Thu 30th Nov 2006 22:51 UTC
Novell and Ximian Novell on Nov. 30 announced its latest NetWare upgrade operating system, the Linux-powered Novell Open Enterprise Server 2. OES, which will be based on Novell's SLES 10, is designed to be a drop-in replacement for Novell NetWare servers, and a direct competitor to Microsoft's Server 2003.
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There's that linux hater!
by halfmanhalfamazing on Fri 1st Dec 2006 00:56 UTC
halfmanhalfamazing
Member since:
2005-07-23

Novell, they're at it again. Hating linux so much, clearly a microsoft tool. They hate linux so much they're staking their future on it.(and other OSS as well, of course)

*sarcasm* *sarcasm* *sarcasm*

Reply Score: 2

RE: There's that linux hater!
by crazybob on Fri 1st Dec 2006 02:25 UTC in reply to "There's that linux hater!"
crazybob Member since:
2006-11-25

I don't think they hate Linux but rather don't understand the FOSS community's ethics. The community at large expects the rest of the community to share, but what Novell did was really anti-community.

One statement made by Novell's CEO demonstrating this is he admits the deal, in business eyes, gives Novell an advantage over the competition. Competion meaning Red Hat, who just happens to be one of the suppliers of Novell's software, and who just happens to be a community member as well. Novell screwing Red Hat means Novell is screwing themselves down the road.

To me, it just didn't seem like Novell had any idea what they were doing because of the flippant attitude towards and the underestimation of the community's reaction as well as doing business with MS so willingly given MS's reputation and Novell's history with MS.

But I am sure Novell doesn't hate Linux. They just don't understand the community they rely on and became a part of.

Reply Score: 5

v RE[2]: There's that linux hater!
by NotParker on Fri 1st Dec 2006 03:29 UTC in reply to "RE: There's that linux hater!"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

Hmmm. So far in this thread, we have a semi-provocative post, a request for information, a response to that, a very reasonable response to the original semi-provocative post... and then we have a thoroughly inflammatory post from NotParker, prompted by some unknown cue.

There's a little foam there at the corner of your mouth, NotParker. ;-)

Edited 2006-12-01 04:44

Reply Score: 5

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

Yes, NotParker has proven to be a particularly provocative brand of troll. The vast majority of what he says is BS intended to provoke emotional responses. I imagine he'll stick around until his trust rating goes negative, then he'll abandon that person and make up a new one so he can come back and waste his days making overblown and easily countered attacks on Linux.

Reply Score: 5

crazybob Member since:
2006-11-25

I was going to reply to him but when I read your post I understood. Thanks for saving me the time.

Reply Score: 3

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

"But don't you agree that implying or stating directly that users of FOSS are more ethical than users of "proprietary" software is hateful?"

No, I disagree. If, in your personal code of ethics, proprietary code is unethical, then you might consider its users to be therefore unethical by using it. If your personal code of ethics disagrees with this notion, then of course you'll also disagree with the statement. However, there is nothing "hateful" about this, anymore than the fact that a vegetarian believes that us meat-eaters are unethical, or that a born-again Christian will believe that someone will go to Hell if they commit sins and not repent.

I *do* believe that trolling message boards by making inflammatory remarks designed to create off-topic arguments *is* unethical, but that's because it disagrees with my personal code of ethics. Obviously, that's not the case for you.

Reply Score: 2

crazybob Member since:
2006-11-25

And out of curiosity, where did I say, or even imply, that FOSS users are more ethical than proprietary software users? All I said was Novell didn't understand FOSS ethics.

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: There's that linux hater!
by IanSVT on Fri 1st Dec 2006 15:27 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: There's that linux hater!"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

NotParker, do you have anything better to do? Really, I'm not a FOSS wacko, so you don't say anything that hits a nerve with me. But, don't you ever wonder to yourself, "why am I wasting all this time posting all this bait?".

Reply Score: 3

RE[7]: There's that linux hater!
by gilboa on Fri 1st Dec 2006 15:29 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: There's that linux hater!"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

By the looks of it - No.

- Gilboa

Reply Score: 2

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

And don't you think certain thoughts are required to be a full fledged FOSS community member.

No, I don't, which makes most of your attacks poorly-constructed (and off-topic) strawman arguments.

You have to hate Microsoft.

You don't. The fact that most Linux users dislike Microsoft is that in the past (and still today, at least if we are to believe Ballmer), MS has had an agenda to discredit, weaken, ridicule or even sue the free Operating System. If MS had contributed to Linux and/or published software to Linux from the start instead of trying to destroy it (as it had done for so many other competitors), then the Linux people wouldn't be so wary of the software giant. MS has no one else to blame than itself for being so unpopular.

But the truth is that "wariness" and "dislike" are not the same as hate. Hate is an irrational, passionate emotion. See, it's like this: I dislike and distrust Microsoft for rational reaons, while you hate Linux for irrational ones. Simple, isn't it?

Also, you'll find that many users who are wary of MS in the OS and Office markets have nothing against MS in other markets (I personally own an Xbox, and I used to have a Microsoft mouse). It's certainly not as black and white as you want to portray it.

You have to think proprietary software is EVIL?

Unethical is not evil. I personally am not opposed to proprietary software per se, but I do think that FOSS is preferable. However, bringing these opinions down to an infantile "good vs. evil" dichotomy is just asking to be flamed.

You have to think and say the GPL is "more free" than the BSD license?

Well, there's a good argument to be made about this, but the fact of the matter is that *both* licenses are free, they are just free in different ways. The GPL is better to protect the freedom of the code for users, while the BSD gives more potential freedom to developers, mainly the possibility to make derivatives un-free. In other words, the BSD license makes it possible for developers to restrict the freedom of users, which in itself is a freedom.

It is a well-known fact for anyone who studies law or political science that some freedoms must be curtailed in order to protect other freedoms. For example, my freedom to walk over to you and punch you on the nose is severely restricted, so that you may enjoy freedom from fear of having a broken nose. That is a reasonable limitation on freedom.

Similarly, GPL proponents believe that the limits on a developer's freedom to alter the code and release the derivative under a non-free license is justified in order to ensure the freedom of users to use, distribute and modify that derivative. You may agree with it or not, but that's part of the GPL advocate's code of ethics, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with this.

(This post is GPLed...feel free to distribute, reuse or modify it in any way. ;-)

Reply Score: 2

stestagg Member since:
2006-06-03

So how much of what you say is actually 'well referenced and designed to annoy by being factual'? Here's a sample:

"the Firefox trainwreck destorys us all.."
"OSS fanatics are like Russians during the cold war"
"makes us feel like westerners visiting Eastern Europe during the cold war"
"I think you should pull your head out of your *ss. "
"the insane to indulge in their anti-Microsoft conspiracy theories"
"Lying is a bad way to start an article."
"GPLv3 wants to recreate dll hell."
"stole its IP"
"Linux has zero chance of catching Windows."
"Linux is way more bloated." [than Vista] hahaha -ed.
"Are all OSS fanatics this cheap? "
"Java is a con game"
"Security by design? Linux? OSS? I laugh!"
"Of course OSS stole IP. Thats what they do! "
"What a load of bull you are spewing."
"Nah nah nah nah ... nah nah nah na"
"25,000 bounty to the family of suicide bombers for killing lots of jews."
"OSS lie ... Debian's been cracked."
"making stuff up to cover up incompetence"

"OSS fanatics" "OSS crybabies" "Linux fanatcis" "cultists" "cults" "cult" "cult" "unethical" "hypocracy" "cultists" "Communist" "cultists are all hypocrites" "excommunicated" "cultists" "cult" "cultists" "cultist" "cultists" "slavery" "mentally ill" "Slavery" "cultist" "cultist" "cultists" "cult" "cult" "nutbar cult" "cult" "cult" "cult" "cultist" "cult" "cult members"
"You cultists are a laugh!"
"Stop behaving like a cult"
"tiny little heads of OSS fanatics explode."
"Firefox is old and tired and full of security holes."
"they stole the Mosaic code"
"Picking a distro is a crap shoot."
"Firefox is a sieve."
"another bullsh*t myth"
"open source is thievery. "
"How long have you lived on Fantasy Island?"
"OSS is just a loony cult."
"excommunicated" "excommunicated" "excommunicated for dealing with the Devil"
"You really know nothing"
"ignorant anti-Microsft FUD"

Reply Score: 3

Ventajou Member since:
2006-10-31

Yes but who cares about facts anymore? I, for one, enjoy reading your posts. But alot of vocal people around here seem to think that things either have to be black or white and that since Microsoft is the big evil one, then nothing remotely positive can come from, or be said about, them...

Maybe they just need to grow up...

Reply Score: 1

archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

But don't you think many of my posts are well referenced and designed to annoy by being factual and contrary to what many in the "FOSS community" mistakenly believe?

No, I don't. When someone offers a counter-argument, you either a) ignore them, or b) simply restate your original argument.

Oh, and ethical beliefs cannot be "mistaken". If someone believes that proprietary software is unethical, you can certainly disagree, but you cannot claim that they are factually wrong.

You need to learn more about ethics, and work on your manners. Even if you were right (which, in my opinion, you're not), you'll never win anyone over to your viewpoint by insulting them.

Not to mention that being more civil would mean your posts wouldn't be buried, which right now makes this a huge waste of time on your part since people will simply not read them.

It's not too late to leave the dark side, young troll... :-)

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: There's that linux hater!
by Ventajou on Fri 1st Dec 2006 04:32 UTC in reply to "RE: There's that linux hater!"
Ventajou Member since:
2006-10-31

The community they rely on is called their customer base. Sorry to break the news to you but Novell is a business and they're in there to make money.

They don't back Linux out of charitable spirit but because they have decided that Linux would be part of their strategy. It is therefore important for them that Linux becomes better.

Whatever choices they make, they'll do it because:
- it gives them an advantage over the competition.
- it's a good PR/marketing move.
- it gives them a tax break.
- or whatever other reason they think will help bring them more cash in the long term.

Considering that Red Hat is in the business of server OS, then Red Hat is obviously a competitor. It is only natural that Novell tries to have an edge over them.

Reply Score: 5

deanlinkous Member since:
2006-06-19

You just stated the exact reason commercial linux distros fail. All they think about is the business aspect and not being a community player as well. They aren't mutually exclusive. Rock on REDHAT!
Novell what? That washed up directory service server OS makeshift company..... Are they still around?

Reply Score: 1

Ventajou Member since:
2006-10-31

I can't think of anybody else with a similar offering that Novell has though.

I don't know Novell's sales figures so I can't really judge whether they are failing or not and what part of their business is Suse compared to OES.

As far as I see it though, the real meat with Novell is the Suse based OES, not the barebone Suse. In a way, Novell has done something similar to what Apple did. They have replaced an aging OS by a unix "clone" system with a yummy layer of goodness on top.

Their market being the enterprise servers, they didn't bother to create a GUI like Apple did. Instead they ported their existing technology to their new "core" OS, providing a smooth transition for Netware clients.

Where I work, we are currently in the middle of upgrading our environment from an outdated Netware to the current OES. Except for Microsoft with AD, SMS and MOM, there's to my knowledge nobody else with an offering as complete as Novell. With eDirectory, Zenworks, iPrint and other products/components, they have something really, really powerful.

Reply Score: 5

2fargone Member since:
2006-02-20

Novell uses Linux because Linux is more advanced than what Novell had prior. It's that simple. Novell needs Linux, not the other way around.

Now, for your statement about the community they rely on is their customer base, that's the exact reason why Novell is being abandoned by large segments of the OSS/FOSS community. Let them keep thinking that, especially when SUSE and Novell are the piriah of OSS and as a consequence having to support forks of all the projects that have abandoned them.

The whole problem with your post is IMO you don't understand OSS/FOSS like Novell doesn't. Novell isn't in a vacuum, nor are they an island. Novell is a BIT player, a big one, but still a bit player in a larger community.

Novell acted in a way that bettered themselves at the expense of the community. And not only did the put the preasure on Red Hat, they also put the pressure on ALL developers, users, and supporters of Linux, OSS, and FOSS, including themselves in 5-6 years. Pressure a certain monopoly wants to use to either kill, tax, or embrace & extend many OSS projects with.

Novell shot itself in the foot because it acted just like you said they should as a business who doesn't care about it's suppliers. I've read comments and posts from others who are not Novell customers but Novell uses their software and they are not happy. Not one bit. And it's going to bite Novell in the ass if they don't hurry up and make amends with the community they've offended.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: There's that linux hater!
by gilboa on Fri 1st Dec 2006 15:46 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: There's that linux hater!"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

You seems to ignore three things.
A. If you look back, you'll find that most of MS' 'close' partner's were either bought my MS or killed by it. Just look at the recent McAfee/Symantec vs. Microsoft Adware-removal-tool and the Vista-kernel-API controversies and you'll understand what I mean. (BTW, I work for a close MS partner. Only God will help us if MS decides to re-evaluate our partnership...)

B. Novel writes a very small part of the software it distribute - much less then RedHat (which has many hands in kernel, gcc, gnome, etc). Team up with Microsoft to kill RedHat and you'll end-up screwing yourself.

C. If MS start suing world+dog over IP infringement (Using the Novel deal as a proof) it's will either kill the OSS movement (If MS wins) or alienate the OSS community (If MS loses). In both cases Novel's flag-ship product will be damaged, if not killed.

Ignoring for a second the Novel + Microsoft vs. OSS/GPL controversy, Novel chose a short term gain (or money) that may kill them in the long term. There's a name for doing just that: Being a short-sighted idiot. (Excuse my language) *

- Gilboa
* Though Novel execs might be pulling a SCO - read: teaming up with MS to kick the stock price up and bail out before all hell breaks loose. In this case Novel execs are not idiots - just greedy bustards.

Edited 2006-12-01 15:54

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: There's that linux hater!
by IanSVT on Fri 1st Dec 2006 16:23 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: There's that linux hater!"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

B. Novel writes a very small part of the software it distribute - much less then RedHat (which has many hands in kernel, gcc, gnome, etc). Team up with Microsoft to kill RedHat and you'll end-up screwing yourself.

Are you talking about open source code? If so, how to you quantify that? If you're talking about software in general, take a look at Novell's product line compared to Red Hat's, and tell me how Red Hat would actually come close to any of it aside from RHEL/SLES basic offerings.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: There's that linux hater!
by gilboa on Fri 1st Dec 2006 22:11 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: There's that linux hater!"
gilboa Member since:
2005-07-06

"Are you talking about open source code? If so, how to you quantify that? If you're talking about software in general, take a look at Novell's product line compared to Red Hat's, and tell me how Red Hat would actually come close to any of it aside from RHEL/SLES basic offerings."

This answer should be marked "off-topic-to-the-point-of-trolling".
Not because it's wrong (or right.) but because it's completely irrelevant.
From a page long answer you took -one- line and based your answer around it. (Ignoring everything else)

So my question to you is: Does it matter?

Lets say I was dead wrong and SUSE contributes 5 times the code RH does. Can you deny the fact the RH programmers contribute huge amounts of code to the OSS community? Can you deny the fact that by helping MS kill RH, Novel may essentially deliver a deadly blow to the GNU/Linux community (or even the OSS ones), and in turn, help MS kill their own flag ship project?

Did you even try to deny any of my points above?
As you didn't try to argue the point(s), I'll assume that you either agree with the above, or has no solid argument to counter my claims - either of which makes your post nothing more then an inflammatory off topic comment designed to divert the discussion into a RH vs. Novel flame war. In short, Troll.

- Gilboa
P.S. Shame on the people who mod'ed your post up. People keep on claiming that they hate (off-topic) flame wars and zealots, and yet they encourage them every chance they have.

Edited 2006-12-01 22:22

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: There's that linux hater!
by IanSVT on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 18:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: There's that linux hater!"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

As you didn't try to argue the point(s), I'll assume that you either agree with the above, or has no solid argument to counter my claims - either of which makes your post nothing more then an inflammatory off topic comment designed to divert the discussion into a RH vs. Novel flame war. In short, Troll.

What the hell are you going on about? You made a comment to support some arguement that was something you couldn't quantify by any stretch. My point was you don't seem to know half of what Novell does open source or not. That's it. It's a nitpick at worse, but a troll it is not. And it's not a dig at RedHat. I don't honestly know all of what RedHat has it's hands in. I don't hate RedHat. I don't care.

The only trolling in this thread is from the open source/closed source/novell sucks comments. This thread was about OES2, not the MS/Novell deal. I'm one of the only people in here who stuck to the topic! Give me a break.

Edited 2006-12-02 18:54

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: There's that linux hater!
by jakesdad on Fri 1st Dec 2006 14:17 UTC in reply to "RE: There's that linux hater!"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

Business's make deals all the time. The issue is, it is with MS... If Novell had made an agreement exactly like this with Redhat it wouldnt be an issue.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: There's that linux hater!
by grat on Fri 1st Dec 2006 14:25 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: There's that linux hater!"
grat Member since:
2006-02-02

Business's make deals all the time. The issue is, it is with MS... If Novell had made an agreement exactly like this with Redhat it wouldnt be an issue.

Unfortunately, what you just said is that the F/OSS is a bunch of rabid anti-Microsoft zealots.

If Novell (or any other Linux vendor) made a deal like this with any other company besides Microsoft, I would like to think the community would be just as violently opposed.

But I suspect they wouldn't be.

Reply Score: 1

2fargone Member since:
2006-02-20

There would be outrage, yes, but not as much. The difference is MS's business model depends on being the only player which means where Microsoft wants to play, Linux and everyone else can't.

Given Novell's history with them, you'd think they would know better. MS didn't make this deal because it was good for customers, they made it because they're playing a chess match against Linux and the GPL. It's not clear yet why, but it's certain there is a reason.

My guess is they want to create an environment where MS can collect patent royalties from OSS users, kill off projects they don't want competition in, and 'pay to play' or _get out_ of the market to businesses/comptetitors/independant developers they don't like.

Red Hat would never make a deal like that anyways. They started off as OSS/FOSS and know better. Novell is a traditional corp and this is just another business deal. The problem is hypothetical situations are just that. Here, in the reality, where we're talking about MS, it's a totally different story.

Reply Score: 2

Xaero_Vincent Member since:
2006-08-18


Business's make deals all the time. The issue is, it is with MS... If Novell had made an agreement exactly like this with Redhat it wouldnt be an issue.


Incorrect.

If Novell and RedHat developed a patent deal over GPL software and decided not to share that covenent with the larger community, they would be subject to the same terms imposed by the GPLv3.

Both companies would be forced not to ship GPLv3 software until they modified their patent deals.

Edited 2006-12-01 17:26

Reply Score: 1

RE: There's that linux hater!
by Sphinx on Fri 1st Dec 2006 17:47 UTC in reply to "There's that linux hater!"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Remember, hate to the dark side leads.

Reply Score: 2

Asking for clarification
by porcel on Fri 1st Dec 2006 01:54 UTC
porcel
Member since:
2006-01-28

What's the difference between Suse Enterprise Server and Open Enterprise Server? I thought that you could also use the Suse Enterprise Server as a Netware server through EDS, am I wrong?

Novell could do wonders by simply making it easier to understand their product offerings. Its product pages are often full of marketing speak and are not as clear as they could be.

Show me a pyramid of enterprise services, storage, identity, email messaging, etc and tell me what your recommended product is for each of these categories.

Just my two cents...

Reply Score: 2

RE: Asking for clarification
by Windows Sucks on Fri 1st Dec 2006 02:57 UTC in reply to "Asking for clarification"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

Suse Enterprise Server is all Linux like Red Hat Enterprise server. You can add netware services on top of it (On almost any version of Linux for that matter)

Open Enterprise Server is Linux with all the Novell Netware software on top out the box, like edirectory, novell identity server etc. And to a Netware network it look like just another Netware server.

I think the name is stupid myself. But the concept is cool.

Reply Score: 3

OES: Where Do I Start?
by segedunum on Fri 1st Dec 2006 11:50 UTC
segedunum
Member since:
2005-07-06

For a start it isn't a Linux distribution, or a Netware OS for that matter. You have a choice (get that) of Netware or Linux kernels. How meaningless is that? You pay for Novell to make these choices, since it's meaningless for you to make them. All you want is a functioning OS.

Additionally, just what is the point of having OES and SLES? There's simply no reason for the distinction. Red Hat gives you RHEL, and you know where you stand, not to mention the administrative and support overhead for Novell.

Various relevant parts of Netware should have been open sourced so they could be combined effectively in one true Novell Linux distribution, and that should have been built on top of with all the pretty management tools people could want. This would have meant less confusion for existing Netware customers and would have brought many of the advantages of Netware to the Linux world and Linux customers - competitive advantage. As it stands, Netware usage is declining in whatever form, OES or pure Netware, you care to mention, and sales of SLES are non-existant in the Linux world in the face of Red Hat. In a nutshell, that's Novell's problem.

It's not that Novell is ditching, or should be ditching, Netware as the base OS for Linux that is the problem and why customers are complaining. It's because Novell just haven't thought about the issues involved in doing this and how to wrap customers in cotton wool to make it utterly painless. Sadly, although they are making progress in moving completely to Linux they're alienating existing Netware customers at the same time (customers ask, not unreasonably "Why move to a different OS that does exactly the same thing?!"), and have nothing to stop the general trend of people moving to Windows Server. Replacing Netware is simply not enough. It's usage was declining before any move to Linux, and simply telling people "Hey, it's Linux!" isn't going to help.

The value added stuff they need to smooth this transition and to be meaningful is non-existant. The graphical and unified management tools they need to take on Windows and gain advantage over Red Hat are not there or are woefully inadequate, and sadly, they're using all the wrong tools for trying to achieve this. They're going to spend more time, effort and money developing and troubleshooting their own development tools than they are producing anything meaningful that will make them money.

It could all have been so different, but the inevitable Novell politics and management dithering duly took effect. Oh well.

Edited 2006-12-01 11:53

Reply Score: 4

RE: OES: Where Do I Start?
by Windows Sucks on Fri 1st Dec 2006 14:01 UTC in reply to "OES: Where Do I Start?"
Windows Sucks Member since:
2005-11-10

Actually, this release they are fully getting rid of the netware kernel.

They kept the netware kernel in the first version so people who were comfortable with netware could just drop OES in using netware (Which was updated from 6.1) and then test their apps etc on Linux before they took OES fully to Linux.

Now that their customer base has tested and must have given good feed back they are totally moving to Linux. They will still support Netware but will not be putting out any new versions of Netware or OES with the Netware kernel.

Also the reason that they have not opened up things like edirectory is because right now it's the only thing they are actually making money on. Most of Novell's money is coming from current Netware users, not new Linux users (Yet)

Also because in the Enterprise space no one has directory services and identity services like Novell. Even Active Directory is weak compared to edirectory. And no Linux vendor can come close to it.

Novell knows that Red Hat is #1 but it also knows that in most enterprises the directory services are being run on Windows. And that is their target with OES. You get Linux and you get directory services for less then what you will pay for Windows and for sure what you will pay for Red Hat with weak directory services and no identity services.

Novell REALLY needs to get some marketing lessons from MS and IBM since they are in Bed with both of them. :-(

And IConsole and Imanager are pretty cool management tools for their netware services.

The thing that sucks is that edirectory is HARD as crap to install on Linux / Unix.

Anyway, my company uses Suse Enterprise 9 for our mail servers and I love it. Never have any problems. Got 2500 users on 4 small servers and almost never have down time. But I don't need all that netware stuff that comes with OES.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: OES: Where Do I Start?
by segedunum on Fri 1st Dec 2006 22:54 UTC in reply to "RE: OES: Where Do I Start?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually, this release they are fully getting rid of the netware kernel.

It's not out until well into next year though.

Also the reason that they have not opened up things like edirectory is because right now it's the only thing they are actually making money on.

The problem is, its usage is still declining. That was and is the problem. Of course they're still making money out of Netware, but Novell has to get people using it and its successors again if they are going to survive.

Most of Novell's money is coming from current Netware users

Unfortunately, they're not keeping those Netware users happy and they're not addressing the reasons why Netware usage was declining even before Novell got into Linux.

...not new Linux users (Yet)

That will be some time never. There's no real compelling reason for using SLES now, apart from the fact that it's a RHEL wannabe now, and looks like it. It's such a limited market, commercial enterprise Linux, and there just isn't enough there to sustain Novell as a going concern with Red Hat so far in front.

Even Active Directory is weak compared to edirectory.

The problem here is that you need Active Directory to manage Windows desktops and servers, so eDirectory will always be jockeying for room with Active Directory and AD will always be there. That's something Novell needs to try and get around after it's sorted out its pressing problems.

Novell knows that Red Hat is #1 but it also knows that in most enterprises the directory services are being run on Windows.

The sole reason for that is because of Active Directory, and the lock-in of Windows desktops, regardless of how much better eDirectory might be.

Now, the question is are Microsoft going to open Active Directory and its protocols to allow implementations on other platforms and to allow other directory services software to manage Windows desktops as a result of the Novell deal? The answer is a big fat no.

And IConsole and Imanager are pretty cool management tools for their netware services.

They're OK, but they're not great. The problem I have with Novell's tools is they have a tendency to change them every five minutes. It seems now that they're on an all-new quest to create some new, unified, uber management platform on Mono or .Net - which won't provide anything better than the Java or other tools are doing.

The thing that sucks is that edirectory is HARD as crap to install on Linux / Unix.

Yer. It's much easier to install on Windows, as is all of Novell's software, like Groupwise. Not a ringing endorsement, is it?

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: OES: Where Do I Start?
by IanSVT on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 18:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: OES: Where Do I Start?"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

They're OK, but they're not great. The problem I have with Novell's tools is they have a tendency to change them every five minutes. It seems now that they're on an all-new quest to create some new, unified, uber management platform on Mono or .Net - which won't provide anything better than the Java or other tools are doing.

I talked to a Novell engineer a month ago or so, and I heard there is a project in the works to unify their tool set. It's going to be a two pronged solution. First, it's a new tool and Novell will actually force the other divisions to use it for new products. Second, it's apparently going to be able to translate existing snap-ins/plug-ins from C1/iManager/NWAdmin. But, it's not official, so we'll see. I agree, all those tools are a real pain in the ass. I have two seperate installs for console1, one for GroupWise, one for ZenWorks. I have iManager for iPrint. And finally I have NWAdmin for my BorderManager proxy.

Yer. It's much easier to install on Windows, as is all of Novell's software, like Groupwise. Not a ringing endorsement, is it?

GroupWise on Linux is easy. eDirectory....well. A part of OES2 is supposed to be install tools, whether that's during install, and/or post, we'll see. I'm still looking forward to it, overall.

Reply Score: 1

uh
by deanlinkous on Fri 1st Dec 2006 14:31 UTC
deanlinkous
Member since:
2006-06-19

I am about as FSF-rabid and cancerous as anyone and if novell wasn't using linux then they could make ANY deal they wanted to. They could all line up, bent over with their pants down for each and every MS employee and I would not care but don't try and stick MY linux in between those bent over and those moving in from behind!

Reply Score: 2

Great!
by IanSVT on Fri 1st Dec 2006 15:23 UTC
IanSVT
Member since:
2005-07-06

I'm more excited for OES2 than I am for Vista. A few comments though.

OES Linux or NetWare running in a Xen para-virtualized environment give you the hardware support of Linux. NetWare's hardware support is continually being scaled back by vendors. For instance, I can't get a Dell rack server that supports NetWare on the hardware level anymore. I can with SuSE, and in turn, OES for Linux or NetWare 6.5 SP7 running within Xen. That's a huge plus for me.

OES on Linux gives you some things beyond SLES. First of all, as was mentioned above, it gives you almost all the NetWare 6.5 based services(iManager, eDirectory, NSS, iPrint, Zen starter pack I believe, Identity Manager starter pack, etc...) out of the box. Also, it allows you to create NSS volumes. NSS is a journaled file system which uses a file permissions system tied directory into eDirectory, which goes beyond the scope of POSIX based file permissions.

eDirectory is not the only money maker for Novell. Zenworks and Identity Manager are popular products, and even GroupWise has a heavy following.

Novell's biggest problem continues to be anything unrelated to support and development. They need to market the hell out of this because the concept is pretty good. It's certainly the best product for my needs in this environment(file/print). And despite file and print not getting looked at today as an issue, everyone still uses it and managing it on a large level is difficult, but Novell does a good job of making it easier.

I don't plan on implementing OES2 into production as soon as its released, but I'll be testing it for sure. I look forward to it.

Reply Score: 2

ompatible?
by Sphinx on Fri 1st Dec 2006 17:52 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

Is there an IPX stack? Server root prompt a ':'?

Reply Score: 1

RE: ompatible?
by IanSVT on Fri 1st Dec 2006 18:25 UTC in reply to "ompatible?"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

The NetWare Kernel on Xen should still have IPX support because unless I'm mistaken, bare metal NetWare 6.5 SP6 supports it. OES Linux probably does not support it. The NetWare kernel will still be NetWare, just living in a different house. According to Jason Williams, OES product manager, they have gotten NetWare on Xen within 5% of the performance of bare metal NetWare 6.5 SP6.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: ompatible?
by Sphinx on Fri 1st Dec 2006 20:20 UTC in reply to "RE: ompatible?"
Sphinx Member since:
2005-07-09

Does it come with a copy of snipes?

Reply Score: 2

SLES Vs. OES
by IanSVT on Fri 1st Dec 2006 18:41 UTC
IanSVT
Member since:
2005-07-06

Back on topic, someone asked the difference between SLES and OES. Here's a podcast with the product manager for OES on that subject:

http://www.novell.com/feeds/openaudio/?p=113

Reply Score: 1

What should I buy Novell?
by apolitical1 on Fri 1st Dec 2006 18:55 UTC
apolitical1
Member since:
2006-12-01

Yikes, that should read "Why should I buy Novell". Sorry, first post. ;)

I do not care about politics, but Novell has not appeared too smart lately. Perhaps they have not been given a fair shake by the press? Anyway, I am curious about their technologies but do not trust their marketing.

For my business, I want to standardize on Solaris or a GNU/Linux distro for both servers and workstations. Cost is not the tightest constraint. Why should I buy Novell? How are its offerings the best for business and software development? What are its killer technologies? Which have the brightest future?

Please, Novell advocates, I would love to join you, but what is the business case in terms of their stuff? TIA--your kindness is most appreciated!

Edited 2006-12-01 19:01

Reply Score: 1

RE: What should I buy Novell?
by IanSVT on Fri 1st Dec 2006 19:28 UTC in reply to "What should I buy Novell?"
IanSVT Member since:
2005-07-06

For my business, I want to standardize on Solaris or a GNU/Linux distro for both servers and workstations. Cost is not the tightest constraint. Why should I buy Novell? How are its offerings the best for business and software development? What are its killer technologies? Which have the brightest future?

As anything else, it really depends on your specific situation. Let's take a business, 200 employees/workstations, 5 servers. Novell would be able to provide you with the desktop, or you could use another desktop if you so required it. I would lean toward SLED just because it has the Novell Client available on it, which allows for login script generation from a central point. So I could write in the scrip to map a server file system volume to /mnt/share1. You could also mount it using CIFS/SMB. Novell OES offers one of the best directory services out there. It's a multi master directory which can be designed with WAN links so if your servers are seperated, you can still use the directory and replication benefits.

OES has NSS, which is a journaled file system and tied into the directory for ease of administration from one(or many, in Novell's less than tightly knit console offerings) central location.

You have the option for workstation management through Zenworks, and asset control, and imaging, application deployment.....

GroupWise is one of the few enterprise level groupware environments out there. It has had problems from time to time, such as GroupWise 7.0 being released too early. However, it is a very capable groupware system with multiple client support, webaccess support, and you can spread it out over multiple servers to distribute load.

This sounds like a sales pitch, but it's not. The reality is, Novell's software, like every other bit of software out there(open source or otherwise) has it's ups and downs. However, many of Novell's software services are well thought out and time tested. They are the only software vendor that has a full framework of identity based administration for mixed linux and windows environments. I know alluded that you don't want windows, but the flexability is there in the odd event you need it.

If you're really interested, call Novell and ask them who your channel partner might be and call them. They might be able to get into a real nuts and bolts discussion on this for you.

Reply Score: 3