Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 1st Dec 2006 15:42 UTC, submitted by anonymous
Java Apache Harmony has left its 'incubator' status. "Apache Harmony is the Java SE project of the Apache Software Foundation. Please help us make this a world class, certified implementation of the Java Platform Standard Edition!"
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Just curious
by diegocg on Fri 1st Dec 2006 16:24 UTC
diegocg
Member since:
2005-07-08

How harmony is relevant, now that Java is open source? Sure, it won't harm anyone a different competing implementation, but IIRC the harmony project was started largely because Sun's java wasn't open source, and things have changed...

Edited 2006-12-01 16:25

Reply Score: 4

RE: Just curious
by arougthopher on Fri 1st Dec 2006 16:45 UTC in reply to "Just curious"
arougthopher Member since:
2005-07-06

Harmony is under the Apache License.
Sun Java will be under the GPL.

Guess it depends, like everything else, the needs of the person using it.

Will be more interesting once people start benchmarking the two.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Just curious
by segedunum on Fri 1st Dec 2006 23:34 UTC in reply to "RE: Just curious"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Sun Java will be under the GPL.

Will Java be dual licensed then, or is that still to be decided?

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Just curious
by Lunitik on Fri 1st Dec 2006 23:46 UTC in reply to "RE: Just curious"
Lunitik Member since:
2005-08-07

Hopefully, Java will be going to GPLv3 eventually, which is supposed to be compatible with Apache's license...

Perhaps the two will be able to work together when that is done...

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Just curious
by sbergman27 on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 01:53 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Just curious"
sbergman27 Member since:
2005-07-24

"""Hopefully, Java will be going to GPLv3 eventually, which is supposed to be compatible with Apache's license..."""


I believe the compatibility is like BSD "compatibility":

Apache Code -> GPLv3 Project

A reciprocal relationship is rarely possible with GPL.

Edited 2006-12-02 01:56

Reply Score: 3

RE: Just curious
by sukru on Fri 1st Dec 2006 16:49 UTC in reply to "Just curious"
sukru Member since:
2006-11-19

I was thinking the success of Harmony (at least the pace of its development) was one of the reasons for open source Sun JDK.

Unfortunately Sun seems to make progress only after the competition becomes serious. One big example is adding generics only after .Net announced them.

Similar things happened when IBM's Eclipse become "the Java IDE". They had to open up Netbeans to compete (albait very late). Now they want to at least maintain "the open source JDK implementation".

Edited 2006-12-01 16:50

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Just curious
by tmack on Fri 1st Dec 2006 18:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Just curious"
tmack Member since:
2006-04-11

It's good for the official version anyway.

Because Sun's version in GPL and Apache's is well, Apache, Sun can include any improvements in Apache's version at their leisure.

It will be good to have competing runtime environments, as it has helped the Java Application server market immensely.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Just curious
by drynwhyl on Fri 1st Dec 2006 18:57 UTC in reply to "RE: Just curious"
drynwhyl Member since:
2006-05-14

> I was thinking the success of Harmony (at least the
> pace of its development) was one of the reasons for
> open source Sun JDK.

Does anybody know if they now rewrote the _entire_ class library (which GNU Classpath with not much success tried to complete the last few years) or just use what GNU Classpath ahs accomplished until now and work together on that?

Edited 2006-12-01 19:01

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Just curious
by santana on Fri 1st Dec 2006 19:11 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Just curious"
santana Member since:
2006-10-22

They are trying to rewrite the _entire_ class library (as in, they aren't using GNU Classpath because of license incompatibilities).

GNU Classpath is actually pretty close. Not sure about the Harmony though.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Just curious
by robilad on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 00:41 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Just curious"
robilad Member since:
2006-01-02

Harmony is still trailing Classpath in terms of class library, but it's catching up fast.

Reply Score: 2

On licenses
by robilad on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 01:57 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Just curious"
robilad Member since:
2006-01-02

The decision to not use Classpath had nothing to do with license incompatibility of the Classpath license with the Apache license, since there is no such incompatibility: you can freely mix code under both licenses, i.e. you can freely mix GNU Classpath and Apache Harmony if you want to.

While a lot of Apache projects happily use code under the Classpath license (it's in every gcc compiled build of an Apache binary via libgcc, after all), and also happily use code under the LGPL, at that time Harmony started the ASF had no official policy regarding third party code. Some ASF leaders felt using Classpath would discourage some companies from taking Harmony proprietary, if they wanted to do that. So in order to differentiate itself from the existing efforts around GNU Classpath, Harmony went the "no GPL here in any form!" route, and successfully appealed to donors who wanted to be able to close off the code again easily.

It's a political decision, rather than a legal one.

I think it was a good decision, since it ensures that IBM and Intel are pouring some nice money into another implementation from the ground up, and more free software doesn't do harm.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Just curious
by sukru on Fri 1st Dec 2006 20:21 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Just curious"
sukru Member since:
2006-11-19

While it's not based on GNU Classpath, Harmony cannot be considered "write from scratch" either.

They've received code contributions (JVM, and class library components) from several vendors (including IBM, Intel, etc).

I'm listing what I've found on their pages:

* AWT, Java2D and Swing Code Contribution (Intel)
* DRL Virtual Machine Contribution (Intel)
* Java Security Code Contribution (Intel)
* VM Interface and Core Classes Contribution (IBM)
* "Bootstrap JVM" Contributed to Apache Harmony
* Source for JCVM Contributed to Apache Harmony

Edited 2006-12-01 20:23

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Just curious
by santana on Fri 1st Dec 2006 20:30 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Just curious"
santana Member since:
2006-10-22

Hmmm, interesting how much Intel provided! Especially in light that I've never heard of alternative Swing/Java2d/AWT implementation (usually all licensees use Sun one).

Also never heard of DRL VM from Intel. Does anyone know how good it actually is?

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: Just curious
by robilad on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 00:08 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Just curious"
robilad Member since:
2006-01-02

It's the good old ORP (http://orp.sf.net), with a few more years of research work and maintenance.

It's cool. It's not as fast as HotSpot, but that's not the selling point of a research platform anyway: in ORP's case,that's modularity of VM components.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Just curious
by alucinor on Fri 1st Dec 2006 22:38 UTC in reply to "Just curious"
alucinor Member since:
2006-01-06

Competition! And also the less of a computing monoculture there is, the stronger your entire ecosystem is.

Reply Score: 2

seems pointless now
by TechGeek on Fri 1st Dec 2006 22:52 UTC
TechGeek
Member since:
2006-01-14

I could understand the need for these projects when Sun controlled Java. But now that they open sourced it, there is no reason to really have two implementations of it is there? Its like having two implementations of Perl. Almost the same, but not quite enough that it won't cause problems. And if you are a distro maker, why would you want both on the same system, and if you have to pick one, might as well be Sun's version. Especially people like Red Hat who cater to the enterprise level market where Sun's Java gets used heavily. Maybe I am wrong though.

Reply Score: 1

just my $0.02
by jango on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 00:45 UTC
jango
Member since:
2006-11-22

i think the GPL'ed versions will naturally move forward, it is just the nature of the developers, most developers really dont like it when someone lifts their code and contributes nothing, this is why people choose the GPL over the BSD. honestly can you imagine where we would be if FOSS meant BSD, no i would support GPL programs anyday, this why sun has to be admired, hmmm yeh the GPL will make Java great.

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Just curious
by Wes Felter on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 01:12 UTC
Wes Felter
Member since:
2005-11-15

Will Java be dual licensed then, or is that still to be decided?

Yes, HotSpot will be multi-licensed; all the old licenses are still valid in addition to the GPL.

Reply Score: 1

v better ways to make a difference now
by theGrump on Sat 2nd Dec 2006 05:43 UTC
ameasures Member since:
2006-01-09

> why put all of this effort into a second-tier effort
> for a language in decline?

Java will now be pre-installed into virtually every open source operating system released from here on. Had Sun been more shrewd this would have been the case five years ago. It might be too late but frankly for cross platform development there is little to touch it.

Reply Score: 3

gmlongo Member since:
2005-07-07

Language in decline??? You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Reply Score: 2