Linked by Thom Holwerda on Mon 8th Jan 2007 21:01 UTC, submitted by elsewhere
KDE "In this weeks' edition of the Road to KDE 4, we'll take a look at the up and coming KWord 2.0 as part of the KOffice project. KWord 1.6.1 is already a powerful KDE-integrated word processor, but with KDE 4 technologies, KWord 2.0 promises to be among the most powerful free word processors available. Read on for more details."
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v reinventing the wheels
by devtty on Mon 8th Jan 2007 21:10 UTC
v reinventing the weels part 2
by foez on Mon 8th Jan 2007 21:16 UTC
Too bad
by ronaldst on Mon 8th Jan 2007 21:28 UTC
ronaldst
Member since:
2005-06-29

KOffice doesn't have enough people working on it. And companies are banking on OpenOffice. KOffice could play a pivotal role in taking on the corporate desktop.

*waits for the port of KDE4 for Windows*

Reply Score: 4

RE: Too bad
by segedunum on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:19 UTC in reply to "Too bad"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

KOffice doesn't have enough people working on it.

True enough.

And companies are banking on OpenOffice.

No they're not. They're banking on Microsoft Office.

KOffice could play a pivotal role in taking on the corporate desktop.

Well, one step at a time. With its development basis KOffice could easily reach critical mass and turn into a very, very good office suite that would attract more interest, developers and investment. But the corporate desktop? Not even Open Office is denting that sadly.

Something additional is needed to get that going.

waits for the port of KDE4 for Windows

Your comment exemplifies why I think porting Unix and Linux applications to Windows is an absolute waste of everyone's time and effort.

Developers spend a lot of time and effort porting applications to Windows in the vain hope that people will move to an alternative platform, and what happens? People continue to sit on Windows and use the same applications.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Too bad
by kap1 on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:44 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
kap1 Member since:
2006-05-12

Developers spend a lot of time and effort porting applications to Windows in the vain hope that people will move to an alternative platform, and what happens? People continue to sit on Windows and use the same applications.

I'd say thats a good achievement, at least they are using an open source application.

Besides if a time comes when all the user needs is open source applications, it makes leaving windows all that much easier.

Edited 2007-01-08 22:52

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: Too bad
by segedunum on Tue 9th Jan 2007 15:41 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Too bad"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Besides if a time comes when all the user needs is open source applications, it makes leaving windows all that much easier.

No it doesn't. At that point it is easier for someone to stay with Windows because they have all the applications they need. It has achieved nothing.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Too bad
by ronaldst on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:45 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
ronaldst Member since:
2005-06-29

@segedunum

No they're not. They're banking on Microsoft Office.

The edit button was greyed out before I could put the word Linux in that phrase.

But the corporate desktop? Not even Open Office is denting that sadly.

That's partly because there are no companies left that are good at pushing desktop corporate software. Novell has no experience on the corporate desktop. It's starting from scratch. IBM could do it but it's out of the game (server only now).

Your comment exemplifies why I think porting Unix and Linux applications to Windows is an absolute waste of everyone's time and effort.

You're putting words into my mouth. It says like it written and that's it. There's no hidden agenda in there.

Developers spend a lot of time and effort porting applications to Windows in the vain hope that people will move to an alternative platform, and what happens? People continue to sit on Windows and use the same applications.

No they don't. They use what's good like VLC.

IMO KOffice and Kontact would make very good candidates/apps to push towards Windows users. Properly hyped, Konqueror could even trump the mighty Firefox.

Frankly, I don't expect much from KDE4 in the form of attracting users to another platform/OS. KDE devs aren't good at hyping their toys like the Mac folks.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Too bad
by aseigo on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:59 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Too bad"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> IMO KOffice and Kontact would make very good
> candidates/apps to push towards Windows users.

i agree but perhaps for different reasons than you.

koffice and kontact are both ways to spread cross-platfor, open standards. koffice for odf and kontact for "things that aren't exchange but do groupware"

> Properly hyped, Konqueror could even trump the
> mighty Firefox.

the khtml part of it is indeed the more interesting bit for several reasons, all of which stem from the fact that it is easily portable and easily embedable.

this is making it attractive for many projects ranging from safari to adobe apollo to nokia's handsets to ... with kde4 it will be easier than ever to access and use an embeddable khtml component across platforms (bye-bye ie component?).

bewteen these various products khtml could quickly hit market share numbers that are quite impressive.

> Frankly, I don't expect much from KDE4 in the form
> of attracting users to another platform/OS. KDE
> devs aren't good at hyping their toys like the Mac
> folks.

a) the mac folks have multi-million dollar promotional budgets
b) compare kde's current promo to 5 years ago. extrapolate.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Too bad
by elsewhere on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:48 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
elsewhere Member since:
2005-07-13

Developers spend a lot of time and effort porting applications to Windows in the vain hope that people will move to an alternative platform, and what happens? People continue to sit on Windows and use the same applications.

I agree that the work in porting to Windows is misguided if the application requires significant re-coding, it sort of dilutes the value of collaboration in the OSS model and becomes somewhat of a fork.

However, the (theoretical) advantage to the KDE4 approach is that the heavy lifting is pretty much done by Qt and the core libs as far as cross-platform capability.

So a project like KOffice could (theoretically) attract developers interested in the capabilities on Windows but by using the existing framework, ultimately contribute to the alternative platforms as well. The project becomes KOffice, not KOffice on Windows vs KOffice on *nix. By expanding the reach of the application, users on all platforms can (theoretically) benefit by drawing from greater exposure to potential developers. I do perhaps naively believe that there are developers working with Windows for pragmatic reasons that would still be interested in contributing to open software on Windows. The Qt/KDE4 approach can ease their ability to participate in a large-scale collaborative OSS project.

Of course, it really remains to be seen once the libs are released and people can assess what's really involved from a technical/developmental POV. But I do think there's no harm in expanding the reach of free software as long as the effort to port free software to closed platforms doesn't detract from the the support of free software on open platforms.

Still, I'll admit there's a lot of theoreticals involved in my probably idealistic view, and this is just my 2c...

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Too bad
by segedunum on Tue 9th Jan 2007 15:47 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Too bad"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

However, the (theoretical) advantage to the KDE4 approach is that the heavy lifting is pretty much done by Qt and the core libs as far as cross-platform capability.

In theory yes, but you're missing the wider issue.

The KDE applications work very well because they are integrated and embedded in KDE's infrastructure, and that's where they work best. To make it work on Windows in an integrated way it will have to be ported to the Windows infrastructure for embedding COM objects in KOffice, clipboard etc. This is a huge amount of rather pointless work, because you can't just port KDE, you'll have to port the applications and KDE infrastructure and make it work well together with Windows.

I mean, what would be the point of simply porting the whole of KDE to Windows and running KDE on Windows rather than individual applications? You've gained nothing.

Reply Score: 4

RE[4]: Too bad
by Terracotta on Tue 9th Jan 2007 16:38 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Too bad"
Terracotta Member since:
2005-08-15

KDE-base 'is' being ported to windows,i.e. phonon uses the directsound from windows, for clipboard the same things can be achieved.

Porting the apps seperatly solves nothing, it's the base that covers the hardest part of the crossplatform things. Amarok, Konqueror, Koffice... all will be easy to port once kde-base is ported(which already has been done for the most part, if I'm not mistaken) (alongside with the native windows Qt-framework), KDE is so strong because of the platform they created not because of the seperate apps (though now, because kdebase makes it easier to create great aps, they have in my opinion some of the best pieces of software floating around).

One thing a lot of people forget is that there's a huge windows userbase that might want to start helping with the coding once there's a windows version of i.e. Koffice. A lot of people that perhaps might want to translate, a lot of people that just might help improve KDE, and what's good for KDE, is good for linux as well. Will it make a difference for Linux adoption? perhaps not, will it make the life of linux users easier? Most certainly, since KDE uses a lot of open standards and open protocols, so KDE adoption results in open-standards and open-protocols adoption.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Too bad
by mat69 on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
mat69 Member since:
2006-03-29

"Developers spend a lot of time and effort porting applications to Windows in the vain hope that people will move to an alternative platform, and what happens? People continue to sit on Windows and use the same applications."

For me it is the other way round:
Why should I continue using Windows, when all programs I want to use run on Linux?
Why should I invest in new Windows versions, when everything runs on Linux?

So for me using OSS on Windows that also runs on Linux is acutally a step away of Windows, especially because the time one needs to be comfortable with Linux is lower if most programs one uses work there.

Reply Score: 4

RE[3]: Too bad
by segedunum on Tue 9th Jan 2007 15:50 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Too bad"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

So for me using OSS on Windows that also runs on Linux is acutally a step away of Windows

It isn't a step away from Windows. All that's happening is that you're bringing KDE and Linux to Windows so people don't feel the need to move.

You have to have something compelling to kick people over.

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: Too bad
by smitty on Tue 9th Jan 2007 16:50 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Too bad"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

You have to have something compelling to kick people over.

I think that is at the heart of where we disagree. You seem to think that by keeping apps Linux only, we can "force" people over by having something they will want. My personal opinion is that:

A: Nothing on Linux is that compelling right now, people would rather use certain Windows-only apps than the ones on Linux.

B: Even if something really compelling is created on Linux, if it is that great then someone (OSS or a company) will just make a clone of it for Windows and no one will switch anyway.

So because of that I think that trying to force people to switch is a waste of time and we should concentrate on making it as easy as possible. Cross platform OSS apps does that while also raising awareness among people who have probably never even heard of Linux.

Anyway, I'm sure you're not going to change your mind and neither am I. This is an old debate that isn't going to go away unless or until Linux gains a significant market share, and maybe not even then.

Edited 2007-01-09 16:54

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Too bad
by smitty on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:21 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Developers spend a lot of time and effort porting applications to Windows in the vain hope that people will move to an alternative platform, and what happens? People continue to sit on Windows and use the same applications.

If they're porting in the hope that people will move to another platform, I agree. However, I think it is worthwhile to port just to get people to switch to alternative software. Take Firefox as an example. If it was a Linux only application, do you seriously think it would have caused people to switch from Windows -> Linux? Maybe a couple, but the mainstream would have just switched to Opera while IE6 was sucking it up and then (possibly) moved back to IE7 if they weren't happy. Instead, you now have millions of people using open source software and making a switch to Linux in the future more possible even if it is still unlikely.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: Too bad
by aseigo on Tue 9th Jan 2007 00:05 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Too bad"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

you are conflating two separate issues:

1) spreading open standards
2) creating a long-term, sustainable environment for free software by creating a FOSS friendly stack from the kernel up.

firefox is an example that belongs in the first category. very few people have switched to linux because of it. many people on linux, bsd, etc are happy because firefox exists but that's for reasons related to standards, which is a subtly but importantly different thing.

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: Too bad
by smitty on Tue 9th Jan 2007 00:24 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Too bad"
smitty Member since:
2005-10-13

Oh, I agree there are a lot of issues involved, some pro and some con. I was simply trying to point out an example of a cross-platform application that I think has done a lot of good that wouldn't necessarily have been accomplished if it was limited to a single platform/DE/whatever. At the very least I think we can assume that the Firefox project itself is better off than it would be if it was Linux-only, and the post I was replying to would seem to argue for that.

Edited 2007-01-09 00:26

Reply Score: 2

v RE[5]: Too bad
by arielb on Tue 9th Jan 2007 00:47 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: Too bad"
RE[6]: Too bad
by Havin_it on Tue 9th Jan 2007 12:22 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: Too bad"
Havin_it Member since:
2006-03-10

You see, KDE is all about the boring apps that linux users need to keep parity with Windows. It's the OS and not the apps that get people to switch.

I don't think that's how a Windows user in the market for switching would see it. KDE makes up a big chunk of what such people would consider "the OS": the Desktop, taskbar, windowmanager, file-manager, session-manager, and of course less visible "middle-of-stack" things like multimedia and hardware abstraction layers. The applications are the value-add, and if you compare them to Windows' thrown-in apps, KDE's selection is pretty mouthwatering IMHO.

Reply Score: 1

RE: Too bad
by Nelson on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:12 UTC in reply to "Too bad"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

I'm normally a Windows guy but KWord 2.0 is absolutely beautiful. If this were ported to Windows I'd see it as a lightweight alternative to Office 12.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: Too bad
by renox on Tue 9th Jan 2007 16:01 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
renox Member since:
2005-07-06

>KWord 2.0 is absolutely beautiful.

I find quite amusing this description as the font in the screenshot has obvious kerning problems.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Too bad
by OSGuy on Tue 9th Jan 2007 09:32 UTC in reply to "Too bad"
OSGuy Member since:
2006-01-01

I believe porting KDE to Windows is the biggest mistake the OpenSource community will do. People will never move to Linux/Unix. If KDE works on Windows 100% with point and click install and the OS works 100%, *why* would anyone switch to Linux for? The only thing I would port if it was up to me will be the browser and KOffice and that's about it. This will give newbies a bit of taste of KDE and what they can expect in Linux. This way, if they want to try KDE, the only way is by installing Linux and once they do, they may never want to go back to Windows. I don't think porting KDE to Windows is a good idea.

**Personal Opinion only** Feel free to disagree/agree.

Edited 2007-01-09 09:33

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Too bad
by Havin_it on Tue 9th Jan 2007 13:50 UTC in reply to "RE: Too bad"
Havin_it Member since:
2006-03-10

I've often heard this view, but I don't agree. The more killer FLOSS apps are made cross-platform, the better, and here's why I think that's so.

When such apps permeate the Windows XP-rience heavily enough that a Windows user's entire application stack can be made up of them, there's every likelihood that, by that stage, the user will have learned enough about the Movement that provided these apps, to be at least aware of Linux and its renowned advantages in security and stability.

So, when they consider migrating -- be it just a natural progression from using so much high-quality FLOSS software already, or a decision encouraged by another impending round of the Microsoft Tax -- they can rest assured that their workflow and recreational computer usage won't miss a beat. Migrating can be (nearly) as simple as backing-up your documents and popping in a distro CD.

Reply Score: 5

great... ish
by axel on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:14 UTC
axel
Member since:
2006-02-04

on one hand i love the layout abilities of kword, it makes image/diagram heavy papers nice and easy.
one the other hand, those layout abilities mean that it doesn't always translate to OO, also can i get a fricken word count feature?

Reply Score: 3

RE: great... ish
by aseigo on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:55 UTC in reply to "great... ish"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

word count, and other such features, are coming with sonnet.

Reply Score: 5

RE: great... ish
by mtzmtulivu on Tue 9th Jan 2007 00:19 UTC in reply to "great... ish"
mtzmtulivu Member since:
2006-11-14

"[..]also can i get a fricken word count feature?"

in version 1.6.0, you can get that feature by going through file->statistics then click the text tab ..i dont know why they decided to bury it that far but the fricken feature its there ..

Edited 2007-01-09 00:22

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: great... ish
by phoenix on Tue 9th Jan 2007 04:47 UTC in reply to "RE: great... ish"
phoenix Member since:
2005-07-11

Sounds like Word. You used to have to go through File -> Properties -> SomethingElse to get a word count. At the same time, the other WP out there (WordPerfect, WordPro, etc) had a word count feature under the Tools or Format menu.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: great... ish
by axel on Tue 9th Jan 2007 17:05 UTC in reply to "RE: great... ish"
axel Member since:
2006-02-04

Ah, thank you much

Reply Score: 1

koffice looking good
by kap1 on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:39 UTC
kap1
Member since:
2006-05-12

Koffice is looking brilliant, speed wise its much faster and snappier than OpenOffice. Only thing holding me back to switching from OpenOffice is that Koffices support for the Microsoft Office format(.doc, .xls) isn't that good, until it gets as good as OpenOffice or better, i will be staying with OO.

Reply Score: 5

RE: koffice looking good
by Excel Hearts Choi on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:54 UTC in reply to "koffice looking good"
Excel Hearts Choi Member since:
2006-07-08

The lack of MS Office support is keeping me from changing. I don't need half the features of OO.org (or the GIMP for that matter), but I do need to read/write MS documents for school. What a pitty.

Reply Score: 3

Port to other platforms
by unoengborg on Mon 8th Jan 2007 22:46 UTC
unoengborg
Member since:
2005-07-06

For this office suit to stop living under the shadow of the much larger OpenOffice.org suite, they need to port it to other platforms.

The new QT4 should make this possible. A port to windows would be nice, MacOS users would perhaps appreciate it even more, at least if it could be done as a non X11 app. The X11 port of OOo looks too foreign for most Mac user to make it an alternative to Microsoft.

Having a cross platform, well integrated alternativefor things like MS-Office/Outlook/Exchange, would lower the threshold for companies that would like to go for a Linux desktop. Ports of KOffice and Kontact could be a big part of this.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Port to other platforms
by aseigo on Tue 9th Jan 2007 00:02 UTC in reply to "Port to other platforms"
aseigo Member since:
2005-07-06

> For this office suit to stop living under the
> shadow of the much larger OpenOffice.org suite,
> they need to port it to other platforms.

this is, imho, a common but flawed view.

applications are not always discreet units. they may also be part of something larger and add to a "sum is greater than the parts" effect. this is why apple doesn't port many of their apps off of macos, for instance. ditto for microsoft for that matter, particularly on the server.

i do think koffice makes a nice cross platform option, but not for the reason you state.

Reply Score: 5

A bit off-topic
by Tomasz Dominikowski on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:05 UTC
Tomasz Dominikowski
Member since:
2005-08-08

I think these new KDE series are a great insight into the progress of KDE, but being a GNOME user, I'd really like to see similar official articles about GNOME's progress.

Following SVN and NEWS/LOG files and Bugzilla isn't really fun, I really lose the focus of the platform as a whole while searching for any information about GNOME 2.18 at all. I also read Planet GNOME, but not much information there as well. I'm a visual person, I'd like to see some screenshots and also some brief descriptions of new end-user visible changes and improvements over 2.16. I don't really care what's changing under the hood. I don't need to care. That's why I'm a little annoyed having to search through all this technical mumbo-jumbo.

Just two or three of these KDE articles told me more what I need to know about KDE 4.0 than every desktop end-user piece of information I could find about GNOME 2.18. Changelogs which state that only the translations were updated or two or three bugs were fixed aren't too informative. I'm sure there's a lot more to GNOME 2.18 than I've found, so if anyone could point to me to a web page or two with some summary what has been done for the end-user I'd really appreciate it.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I appreciate everyone's work. And sorry for being offtopic, but the stark difference in information volume about end-user changes and improvements between KDE and GNOME struck me while reading about KDE this time. It's hopefully just my wrong impression.

I hope I've expressed myself clearly, I don't want to start a flamewar or anything. I'd just like to see a series of articles "A Road to GNOME 2.18" ;)

//exclusive GNOME user.

Reply Score: 3

RE: A bit off-topic
by chocobanana on Mon 8th Jan 2007 23:33 UTC in reply to "A bit off-topic"
chocobanana Member since:
2006-01-04

Well, if you're a visual person, don't expect Gnome to change much on the surface because 2.18 will change mostly under the hood.

If you compare 2.16 with previous releases you won't see major differences between each incremental release.

Reply Score: 1

RE: A bit off-topic
by phoebus on Tue 9th Jan 2007 18:46 UTC in reply to "A bit off-topic"
phoebus Member since:
2006-12-24

The Gnome guys usually do this about a month before the next Gnome release goes out. Search for Davyd Madeley's articles, for example.

The KDE guys are taking a more distributed approach to advertising the new features. That approach makes sense because KDE has been struggling with a difficult situation: how to keep people excited about a revolutionary release that will take awhile to get out the door. It's probably better to feed the features piecemeal to keep the excitement and interest going.

That same situation hit Gnome at 2.0 and almost destroyed the whole project. KDE seems to be doing much better in handling it this time around.

Reply Score: 2

Sweet
by ituloyangsulong on Tue 9th Jan 2007 02:55 UTC
ituloyangsulong
Member since:
2007-01-09

KDE4 looks promising! Competition is good. I'm looking forward for OO.org and GNOME to improve themselves.

Reply Score: 1

Fixed Text Rendering?
by TheMonoTone on Tue 9th Jan 2007 07:39 UTC
TheMonoTone
Member since:
2006-01-01

In the screenshots the text seems to have the same old annoying spacing issues that kword has had since I remember using it. I read in the comments thats supposed to be fixed with the latest rendering engine or whatever, so hopefully that happens. Does anyone happen to know? I like the idea of placing things anywhere, but really, when I'm typing up a document in a wysiwyg editor like kword, I want to see exactly what I'm getting, not some weird spacing issues.

It seems to be mostly a problem with the letter e in the screenshot. Perhaps its not kword at all but the default font?

Reply Score: 3

Koffice 2 looks technically very impressive
by REMF on Tue 9th Jan 2007 08:17 UTC
REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

but i use office packages in work, usually to communicate with other businesses running MS Office.

so until Koffice has as good support for .doc as O.O.o I will stick with the latter.

i would be happy if koffice 2 provides just OpenXML support tho.

Reply Score: 1

boudewijn Member since:
2006-03-05

There isn't much chance of OpenXML support: just supporting the word "standard" takes an estimate 150 man year. And the spreadsheet format is even weirder. Read and enjoy: http://www.robweir.com/blog/2007/01/formats-of-excel-2007.html.

What we're doing is going hell-for-leather for OpenDocument. When KOffice 2.0 will be released, OpenDocument will be available to a certain extent for all office suites, including the MS one -- and OpenDocument has the eminent advantage that it is implementable.

Reply Score: 5

Cross platform
by dindin on Tue 9th Jan 2007 17:32 UTC
dindin
Member since:
2006-03-29

I wish the KDE project the very best. As a Gnome user have found KDE to be a lot more easily ported to other platforms probably because of Qt. I currently use Gnome on BSD and OS X but I see a lot more of KDE apps on OS X than Gnome's. Open source software should not be tied to a Open source OS. Lately it seems that Gnome works best when used with Linux.

Edited 2007-01-09 17:34

Reply Score: 2

REMF
Member since:
2006-02-05

is KDE/Linux isn't good enough to tear people away from windows then it doesn't deserve to have those users.

i don't buy the "ignorance is for their own good" argument.

< happy kde user

Reply Score: 1