Linked by Thom Holwerda on Fri 19th Jan 2007 22:59 UTC
Novell and Ximian Novell has begun a new element of a years-long effort to coax people away from Windows and toward Linux. It unveiled a Web site Friday that touts purported advantages that Novell's Suse Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 has over Windows Vista. The site includes a white paper making the case, a variety of customers who have opted to use the software, and a video arguing that SLED has good usability and a built-in office suite but not Windows' lock-in and high licensing costs.
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Good move by Novell
by archiesteel on Fri 19th Jan 2007 23:25 UTC
archiesteel
Member since:
2005-07-02

Many people were wary of them after the agreement they made with MS. Good to see that they're still considering Windows as the competition!

Reply Score: 5

But do they have apps?
by TaterSalad on Fri 19th Jan 2007 23:35 UTC
TaterSalad
Member since:
2005-07-06

But do they or can they provide the apps and support that businesses will need? And I'm not talking about just OpenOffice and Firefox. Financial, healthcare, stocks, or any other industry?

Reply Score: 5

RE: But do they have apps?
by jakesdad on Sat 20th Jan 2007 00:11 UTC in reply to "But do they have apps?"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

if its a real enterprise they have terminal servers(probably windows ts') use tsclient and you have access to your business apps.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: But do they have apps?
by PJBonoVox on Sat 20th Jan 2007 00:30 UTC in reply to "RE: But do they have apps?"
PJBonoVox Member since:
2006-08-14

What about remote laptop users? They have to use Terminal Services too?

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by merkoth on Sat 20th Jan 2007 00:43 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
merkoth Member since:
2006-09-22

Well, it's true the if you don't have the apps, there's no customers; but if you don't have the OS, there's no apps and, then, no customers. So, how can Novell solve the problem? By offering an OS solid and mature enough to compete with Vista and promoting it. If enough companies get interested in it, be sure that they'll move the correct levers and make sure they have apropiate ports of the apps they use.

Is SLED good enough? I couldn't objetively say, since I really dislike Vista, and I'm no bussiness man. But I guess time (and the companies) will tell.

Oh, and I think that they could do better with that website. Looks too simple and not very professional, IMHO.

Edited 2007-01-20 00:45

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: But do they have apps?
by sb56637 on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:19 UTC in reply to "RE: But do they have apps?"
sb56637 Member since:
2006-05-11

>if its a real enterprise they have terminal servers(probably windows ts') use tsclient and you have access to your business apps.

But unfortunately this doesn't eliminate the need for Windows to run the TS.

Reply Score: 1

RE[2]: But do they have apps?
by Bit_Rapist on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:28 UTC in reply to "RE: But do they have apps?"
Bit_Rapist Member since:
2005-11-13

if its a real enterprise they have terminal servers(probably windows ts') use tsclient and you have access to your business apps.

Why run all your windows apps via terminal services if the vast majority of your business software is windows based? There is no point, you might as well just run windows.

At my job we use citrix because the guys using unix still need to run some windows only software. We don't have that problem going the other way, there is nothing we run that is unix only or so critical to our corporate desktop that we have to run unix on every workstation.

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: But do they have apps?
by kaiwai on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:34 UTC in reply to "RE: But do they have apps?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

That has to be the worlds worst reply ever - *files the post under stupid moronic reply*

Whether you run Windows locally or access it via terminal services, you're still running Windows, and you're still having to purchase Microsoft licences; in other words, you're no better off than before.

What Novell needs to do is start putting their money where their mouth is, approaching companies and PAYING for those companies to port their said applications to Linux *OR* Novell licencing the source code and they themselves port the application to Linux.

What ever the case, there needs to be applications ported natively to Linux for it to make a dent into the enterprise marketplace.

That is *only* the tip of the ice burg; Linux also need better RAD tools - everyone of them right now suck, and suck royally when compared to Visual Studio - I love to hate Microsoft, but I admit they make some bloody nice development tools, and that's what keeps developers with Windows, the marketplace, and the development tools that don't require painful hand coding as the case with GTK.

Use GLADE? please, it is a bloody usability nightmare, I tried to understand the whole process and it was almost equal to getting a root canal done without anaesthetic - not a pleasant experience.

When businesses want is a RAD where you can drag and drop components onto a window, double click on the widgets, add some code, and voila, within a few hours, a small front end to a database - the code maybe absolutely hideous, but to those who use it, it works - that is where the likes of Novell need to concertrate.

With that, the likes of Novell and Red Hat need to stop expecting that the 'opensource community' will provide them everything they need to be successful - shock bloody horror, these companies might actually need to invest some money themselves to address those issues rather than expecting some bright young fellow to do the job for free.

I'm not bagging Novell or Red Hat, but I think both need to realise that there is a degree of give and take, and that the expectation should not always be for someone else to fix the problem, it might actually require Novell or Red Hat to make a significant investment either via a buy out or R&D investment to address a said issue.

Edited 2007-01-20 03:39

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by dmantione on Sat 20th Jan 2007 09:58 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
dmantione Member since:
2005-07-06

> Whether you run Windows locally or access it via terminal services, you're still running Windows, and you're still having to purchase Microsoft licences; in other words, you're no better off than before.

But with one important difference: All Windows stuff is suddenly legacy stuff. You can migrate your customers to KDE, OpenOffice, etc., and already save yourself buying many licenses.

Yes, you need to buy terminal services, and per seat it is almost as expensive as a Windows XP license for each desktop. But it is usually only for a few applications, and in many situations only for a few users.

Another advantage is that you can migrate a user when he is ready. You can temporarily give a user a Windows desktop, and when he is ready switch his terminal to login to a Linux server. This prevents that one or two users that cannot switch yet block the migration of the entire organisation.

So, out of experience I can say Windows Terminal services is a great tool to migrate an organisation to Linux. You always need some backwards compatibility, which is supposed to be provided by Wine, but as Wine is often no realistic option, Windows terminals services does the job fine.

Edited 2007-01-20 10:01

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by dmantione on Sat 20th Jan 2007 10:07 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
dmantione Member since:
2005-07-06

> Linux also need better RAD tools - everyone of them right now suck

What sucks about Lazarus? http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org

Some advertising ahead ;)

> When businesses want is a RAD where you can drag and drop components onto a window,

Check.

> double click on the widgets

Check.

> add some code

Check.
> and voila, within a few hours, a small front end to a database

Check.

> the code maybe absolutely hideous, but to those who use it, it works

It is fast compiled code, instant application startup. The program can be compiled for GTK1, GTK2, QT, Win32 and Carbon. Yes, you heard that right, you can support all major GUIs natively with one codebase.

The reason Lazarus succeeds where other compilers fail is the compiler stack. The GCC compiler stack doesn't provide the facilities a good RAD tool needs to design visually. Good runtime type information is critical, so the GUI framework can setup object hierarchies as designed in the UI-designer. Other facilities, like resources and internationalization facilities, help RAD tools too.

Edited 2007-01-20 10:15

Reply Score: 5

RE[4]: But do they have apps?
by kaiwai on Sat 20th Jan 2007 10:54 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: But do they have apps?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Its a nice idea - I'll give you that, but the fact remains it is not a mainstream language.

What there needs to be is a RAD built on top of Mono, with a complete mono stack that is compatible to what Microsoft has implemented.

The RAD that sits ontop needs to be as easy to use as Visual studio, when you want to compile, its a matter of click and compile, when you want to deploy, its a matter of clicking on 'deploy'.

The problem isn't the technology - the technology is there, the problem is that the companies involved with Linux distributions are too lazy to invest the necessary money to develop such a platform.

Eclipse? its a bloated buggy mess - its no where near the ease of use one finds in Visual Studio, and Netbeans is a prime example of Sun's run of the mill over convoluted engineering - why take the easy road when you can make something large and complex.

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: But do they have apps?
by dmantione on Sat 20th Jan 2007 11:27 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But do they have apps?"
dmantione Member since:
2005-07-06

> What there needs to be is a RAD built on top of Mono, with a complete mono stack that is compatible to what Microsoft has implemented.

I disagree. I even think we even need to excommunicate Mono, it is doing too much damage to the community. Further, from a technical perspective, Mono is walking behind Microsoft, it supports .NET 1, Microsoft is already at .NET 3. Further, .NET RAD tools already exist. Lets run the existing ones on Wine, or make them run and that problem is solved.

What is needed, is RAD tools to build Linux applications, real ones, that integrate with your desktop. Lazarus is such a tool, as is GLADE or Kdevelop. Mono or Java based tools won't get us where we need to be.

Edited 2007-01-20 11:28

Reply Score: 5

RE[6]: But do they have apps?
by trenchsol on Sat 20th Jan 2007 17:04 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: But do they have apps?"
trenchsol Member since:
2006-12-07

Just a curiosity. What about people who are not in the "community", just need to do some business ? Are they supposed to benefit from Linux ? Is it "Either you are a with the community, or look for another OS" ?

I don't care, I am running FreeBSD and developing Java, but I'd just like to know.

DG

Reply Score: 1

RE[5]: But do they have apps?
by unoengborg on Sat 20th Jan 2007 13:31 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But do they have apps?"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

ts a nice idea - I'll give you that, but the fact remains it is not a mainstream language.

There are plenty of applications for windows that was developed using Delphi in spite of pascal not being a mainstream language, and I don't think C# would qualify as mainstream either.

Java would be a better choice. It is taught as the firs programming language in most universities. It have a much wider platform support than C#, and there are nice RAD tools for it (E.g. Netbeans).

Reply Score: 3

RE[6]: But do they have apps?
by kaiwai on Sat 20th Jan 2007 19:40 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: But do they have apps?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

Actually no, I most cases, the first language people learn is Visual Basic to give them the basic over view of a language, input, processing and output; Java is later down the track in regards to introducing OO programming. Before Visual Basic, Pascal used to be a teaching tool for the basics of programming.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: But do they have apps?
by B. Janssen on Sat 20th Jan 2007 14:20 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But do they have apps?"
B. Janssen Member since:
2006-10-11

kaiwai:Its a nice idea - I'll give you that, but the fact remains it is not a mainstream language.

Of course, if mainstream is defined by support through Visual Studio, you may have a point but that's just another symptom of the quasi-monopolistic setup of software in the SOHO to medium-sized, non-IT specialist companies segment of the market, where MS clearly dominates.

So, Pascal maybe not mainstream in your world, but otherwise Pascal is pretty much a mainstream language. Besides RAD for huge UNIX based environments (there are more than you think) it still is used in teaching programming and language design, so every university level software engineer at least knows some Pascal. Same is true for C/C++ and Java, but not for Mono or C# yet and certainly not for VB.

Reply Score: 2

RE[6]: But do they have apps?
by kaiwai on Sat 20th Jan 2007 19:45 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: But do they have apps?"
kaiwai Member since:
2005-07-06

No, mainstream is defined by going into an IS room full of 20's and 30 somethings and asking, "put up your hand if you can proficiently write an application in [language]".

Nothing to do with monopolistic voodoo, and everything to do with the usefulness of the language and whether the language has been marketed; if the community just want to sit by its merry old self with no marketing, then so be it, but don't blame anyone for not being 'main stream'.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by zerohalo on Sat 20th Jan 2007 15:12 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
zerohalo Member since:
2005-07-26

<em>When businesses want is a RAD where you can drag and drop components onto a window, double click on the widgets, add some code, and voila, within a few hours, a small front end to a database - the code maybe absolutely hideous, but to those who use it, it works - that is where the likes of Novell need to concertrate.</em>

Then why not use Ruby/Rails or Python/Django to develop a web-based app in a few hours (or less, literally) as database front-ends. Much easier to maintain than client software anyway, since all the end-users need is a browser instead of software installed on their own PC, allowing them to use pretty much any thin client running a Linux OS. IMO, that's the way to go in Enterprise software where you're working pretty much in a closed environment. And both Ruby and Python are easier to program in than Java. So I don't see the need for VS unless these in-house enterprise developpers are still using VB or are tied to .Net for some business reason.

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by dostrowski on Sat 20th Jan 2007 17:45 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
dostrowski Member since:
2006-11-10

When businesses want is a RAD where you can drag and drop components onto a window, double click on the widgets, add some code, and voila, within a few hours, a small front end to a database - the code maybe absolutely hideous, but to those who use it, it works - that is where the likes of Novell need to concertrate.

Someone's never used QTDesigner before. Or KDevelop.

Also, for small businesses you can probably start getting away with Kexi in the near future. ;) (for putzy database apps)

Edited 2007-01-20 17:45

Reply Score: 2

RE[4]: But do they have apps?
by segedunum on Sat 20th Jan 2007 18:13 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: But do they have apps?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Someone's never used QTDesigner before. Or KDevelop.

Qt Designer and KDevelop are indeed good extremely good, and probably the best options right now, but more work needs to be put into a good Visual Basic RAD replacement (since even Microsoft doesn't have one now - no VB.Net isn't it), like Ruby and make sure people can do stuff with it.

However, that takes an awful lot of work and a massive amount of effort and resources to really get right, and Novell just aren't focusing it in the right areas or even on the tools you describe.

Reply Score: 2

RE[5]: But do they have apps?
by dmantione on Sat 20th Jan 2007 19:26 UTC in reply to "RE[4]: But do they have apps?"
dmantione Member since:
2005-07-06

Qt Designer and KDevelop are indeed good extremely good, and probably the best options right now, but more work needs to be put into a good Visual Basic RAD replacement (since even Microsoft doesn't have one now - no VB.Net isn't it), like Ruby and make sure people can do stuff with it.

Can you elaborate? What functionality does Visual Basic have that the existing RAD tools (Lazarus, Kdevelop, GLADE, QTdesigner) cannot provide?

Edited 2007-01-20 19:27

Reply Score: 1

RE[6]: But do they have apps?
by segedunum on Sat 20th Jan 2007 22:20 UTC in reply to "RE[5]: But do they have apps?"
segedunum Member since:
2005-07-06

Can you elaborate? What functionality does Visual Basic have that the existing RAD tools (Lazarus, Kdevelop, GLADE, QTdesigner) cannot provide?

For a start, they need a language that lends itself to the purpose, like Visual Basic. Ruby is possibly the best candidate at the moment, and they need to be integrated into lots of desktop infrastructure.

Additionally, the infrastructure within the OS beyond the desktop needs to be fleshed out. For example, I can create a VB application using WMI (Windows Instrumentation) that can query the status of other machines, manipulate system services and I can create DCOM components that will give me the ability to do things programmatically, in a sane way, whether local or remote. The last point is where Linux does still lag way, way behind, regardless of what you can script. There's no substitute for having a good API for these things, especially for RAD development. I'd love to see some DBUS interfaces for this purpose, and it is possibly the only reason why I see something like Portland being useful.

Additionally, tools like Glade fall a long way short on quality, and to be honest, I don't know why Gnome doesn't just look more at Lazarus for RAD development instead of all that .Net hype which isn't materialising into anything.

Reply Score: 2

RE[7]: But do they have apps?
by twenex on Sat 20th Jan 2007 23:01 UTC in reply to "RE[6]: But do they have apps?"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

For a start, they need a language that lends itself to the purpose, like Visual Basic.

Well, I believe I can point you to plenty of people who would say that VB definitely does not lend itself to purpose.

Besides, there's always Gambas, which is almost a VB clone, I hear.

Reply Score: 3

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by butters on Sat 20th Jan 2007 23:51 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
butters Member since:
2005-07-08

You can't write a post about how RAD tools for Linux suck without once mentioning Qt Designer--and while you're at it, its commercial Python/Ruby-oriented cousin BlackAdder.

I agree that GLADE is... suboptimal. I'll add that GTK in general is... not as good as Qt. Perhaps you can hold that against Novell and Red Hat. I wouldn't disagree.

But I think that if you show Visual Studio developers a nice, polished visual IDE based on Qt that runs on and builds for all three major platforms and supports C++/Java/Python/Ruby, they'd be quite pleased. Even relieved.

Edited 2007-01-20 23:55

Reply Score: 2

RE[3]: But do they have apps?
by jakesdad on Sat 27th Jan 2007 14:30 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: But do they have apps?"
jakesdad Member since:
2005-12-28

all the baggin on this psot proves that you are looking for a complete replacement.
If they have server apps that need access and they cant reprogram the appp but can replace the users client pc with linux you still save money. End of story.. Nothing stated by any response made any sense and looks to get rid off everything in one shot... Which no enterprise will do.

Most people in IT dont even realize you can work on a linux machine in a windows machine because of access to the windows terminal servers. thats 125-199 bucks per client removed. Since you arent paying for the client OS only the terminal server licence. You arent payng twice anymore.

My statements are for interim moves. you all want it done in one day. Windows didnt take over in one day and linux wont either. Its slow migrations.

Reply Score: 1

RE: But do they have apps?
by archiesteel on Sat 20th Jan 2007 01:17 UTC in reply to "But do they have apps?"
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

There are industries that are better served than other, for certain, however there *are* a lot of apps out there for *many* businesses.

So for many industries, using Novell's Linux instead of Vista makes perfect sense, just not all of them.

Reply Score: 4

RE: But do they have apps?
by ma_d on Sat 20th Jan 2007 05:02 UTC in reply to "But do they have apps?"
ma_d Member since:
2005-06-29

That's a question that each customer needs to ask Novell. It's a very personal question... For many customers it may be something they have to ask their own in-house programmers.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: But do they have apps?
by cg0def on Sat 20th Jan 2007 07:53 UTC in reply to "But do they have apps?"
cg0def Member since:
2006-02-12

this is not an all out windows to linux switch. Plus such a thing is totally impossible. Novell is trying to gain enough customer base so that they can fund further development and then gain even more customers. Not that different from what any other industry member would do ... And as far as large companies go I think that they will find the investment in educating employees about linux a lot smaller than educating them about Vista and Office 2007. As far as the software goes ... well in some cases switching to linux will take a pretty large sum of money and it's not worth it. But the majority is not like that and Novell knows it. Plus Novell is not your typical take-over-the-world company although they are no angel either ...

Reply Score: 1

RE: But do they have apps?
by systyrant on Sun 21st Jan 2007 01:42 UTC in reply to "But do they have apps?"
systyrant Member since:
2007-01-18

The question should be why aren't developers porting their application to Linux? I think the answer is low demand and high cost.

It's probably very close to a catch 22. Developers aren't going to spend the time and money developing or porting application to a platform that has a small market share. Add in the fact that software that is more specialized, like a lot of software for enterprise is, and the desire to support Linux gets even less. And as many have stated with out the application you want what good is Linux for you.

I've always thought that Linux should be targeted at the home user. First you get those people who basically don't do much other than surf the web and send e-mail. (Market share goes up.) As the market share rises game developers will start creating title for Linux. (Market share goes up.) You will then get better hardware support form hardware vendors and software developers will take note.

To me it seems insane to go after the enterprise for anything outside of servers because the OS, while important, isn't the big purchase for most of these companies. They'll stick to Windows because the software they buy only runs on Windows. And as long as the majority of that software is only supported on Windows then Windows is where they will stay.

Reply Score: 1

Really?
by Buck on Fri 19th Jan 2007 23:48 UTC
Buck
Member since:
2005-06-29

We'll see how Microsoft feels about that though and if they decide to pull the plug on this.

Reply Score: 5

RE: Really?
by Nelson on Sat 20th Jan 2007 00:43 UTC in reply to "Really?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

Head line tomorrow: Microsoft dumps Novell like a hot potato, eyeing Ubuntu.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Really?
by dostrowski on Sat 20th Jan 2007 17:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Really?"
dostrowski Member since:
2006-11-10

I'm not sure how they can "drop" them, as they entered into a contract with them and paid them millions of dollars which they will not get back if they break out of the contract.

Also, Ubuntu? Please. Compared to the patent warehouse, hundreds of excellent engineers, and the creative control over things like YaST at Novell... Ubuntu is smaller than small potatoes.

Edited 2007-01-20 17:46

Reply Score: 1

RE[3]: Really?
by Nelson on Sat 20th Jan 2007 20:39 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Really?"
Nelson Member since:
2005-11-29

IT WAS A JOKE. JOKE AS IN YOU NEED TO LAUGH.

Reply Score: 0

RE
by Kroc on Sat 20th Jan 2007 00:42 UTC
Kroc
Member since:
2005-11-10

Please, for the love of Pete, hire a British person for doing your voice overs! The first few words of the presentation grated so hard I had remove my earphones.

Reply Score: 5

RE
by twenex on Sat 20th Jan 2007 22:41 UTC in reply to "RE"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

Indeed! Whaa is it thaat fram Windowse to Linspaa' to demanstratians aan tha Web they aalways choose saamone with THE BRAADEST Amayreecan aaccent they-all caan faand to doo thee voisse-owverrrs?

Shucks!

Reply Score: 1

Novell SUSE
by hraq on Sat 20th Jan 2007 01:25 UTC
hraq
Member since:
2005-07-06

actually is as unstable to me as windows vista is.

If I would like to use something linux I will start with Redhat or CentOS and if I feel a little bit adventurous then I will choose Fedora, mandriva or ubuntu.

All Suse based OSs suffer a horrible instability bugs, while claiming it is an enterprise OS. The word enterprpise must be reserved for an OS that doesn't make your applications crash out of the box.

I had also alot of compilation failures with suse due to their unique structure; even on nvidia site they have a special instrution on how to install for suse while the whole other linux versions have one direction namely "sh <application>" .

Novell management is so horrible, they keep doing mistakes every time and this let them deep down now with <1 billion market capital compared to 3 billions just a year a go.

They must be more efficient to overcome the fierce competition that characterize the computing market now.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Novell SUSE
by Bit_Rapist on Sat 20th Jan 2007 01:59 UTC in reply to "Novell SUSE"
Bit_Rapist Member since:
2005-11-13

The word enterprpise must be reserved for an OS that doesn't make your applications crash out of the box.

Then how do you explain the widespread use of Windows in the enterprise? ;)

Reply Score: 5

RE[2]: Novell SUSE
by thjayo on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:13 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell SUSE"
thjayo Member since:
2005-11-11

Good point.
Still, one of the major factors of a switch would be the incredible Linux stability. Ain't happening.
I have a feeling about these great enterprise distros that they tend to overcomplicate issues and come up with the most difficult and complex solution to a problem.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Novell SUSE
by hraq on Sat 20th Jan 2007 05:07 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell SUSE"
hraq Member since:
2005-07-06

I would explain it by the word out of the box.
Yes, windows will never crash out of the box, even though it will crash eventually. That behavior is inhereted in their registry and other bad designs and lack of software code protection. But Novell software will crash out of the box like it happened with me and others; eg : gthumb...crashed, GNOME ...crashed,...Yast....frozen for ever, network mounts disconnected suddenly, firewall...weird behavior...etc etc.

The difference between windows and SUSeEnterprise is that Microsoft gives you the oxygen for few days before pulling the mask....whereas SUSE will let you suffer till death.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Novell SUSE
by twenex on Sat 20th Jan 2007 22:42 UTC in reply to "RE: Novell SUSE"
twenex Member since:
2006-04-21

"lock-in".

Reply Score: 2

RE: Novell SUSE
by poohgee on Sun 21st Jan 2007 01:12 UTC in reply to "Novell SUSE"
poohgee Member since:
2005-08-13

That is absolute B*S* & you know that .

I have been using SuSE since 8.1 i.e. last 6/7 years & it is stable - fact .

With Novell taking over SuSE they made a horrible mess of 10.1 - but now with 10.2 they finally have a usual top quality release .

Im not going to say - SuSE is as stable with each & every application & component as Debian or Slackware - but then SuSE also includes very up-to date packages but still presents a very stable system (in my experience) .

It seems to be stable & good enough for big companies (the references on this new site they created) to use & - counted ;) - 55 systems in the current top500 supercomputer list run SuSE alone or combined with another OS.

http://top500.org/stats/28/os/

12 run RedHat - how many are Fedora - doesn't say .

Reg NVidia - I never do the YaST Online Update install of the NVidia graphics driver - which is what you are refering to .

It is completly possible & fine when you just run the script from command line .

Edited 2007-01-21 01:17

Reply Score: 2

RE: Novell SUSE
by sultanqasim on Sun 21st Jan 2007 18:07 UTC in reply to "Novell SUSE"
sultanqasim Member since:
2006-10-28

SLED 10/Suse 10.2 are very stable; they have never crashed on me, unlike ubuntu; even on an iBook, where support is still under construction. SUSE is the only didtro that just works (with the exception of Red Hat and Arch, that seem even more reliable). Plus XGL is a welcome addition, helping linux compete with mac os x amd vista.

Reply Score: 1

Now they've done it.
by case on Sat 20th Jan 2007 01:35 UTC
case
Member since:
2005-06-29

Boy I sure hope they got permission from Microsoft to post that information on their web site. They could be in for some really big trouble.

Reply Score: 3

I use linux daily but...
by buff on Sat 20th Jan 2007 02:05 UTC
buff
Member since:
2005-11-12

I use linux to do all my work, play music and surf the web. I would love to say it is a complete desktop alternative for Windows users but it isn't. I don't want to bother with Wine or other compatibility programs so I usually have to reboot in XP mode to run my games and run my financial software. It is the crossplatform software compatibility problems which Windows users don't want to deal with. Hell, I prefer linux and I don't want to bother jumping through hoops to get virtualization software to work.

Reply Score: 3

RE: I use linux daily but...
by archiesteel on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:15 UTC in reply to "I use linux daily but..."
archiesteel Member since:
2005-07-02

I use linux to do all my work, play music and surf the web. I would love to say it is a complete desktop alternative for Windows users but it isn't. I don't want to bother with Wine or other compatibility programs so I usually have to reboot in XP mode to run my games and run my financial software. It is the crossplatform software compatibility problems which Windows users don't want to deal with. Hell, I prefer linux and I don't want to bother jumping through hoops to get virtualization software to work.

If rebooting does the trick for you, then do it. I find that virtualization is much less a pain in the ass, really. Have you tried VMWare? It's trivial to set up and use. Quicken and Quickbooks also work very well with Crossover, which is also *very* easy to set up and use.

Soon virtualization will be even easier (as long as you have current hardware), and apps will be able to be run in rootless windows. OS X already does it with Parallels, I believe.

Of course games are trickier, since that means virtualizing the graphics card, but there's no reason it can't be done. Then again, as a gamer, I find that game consoles are quite enough to satifsfy my needs. Now, if I could only get my hands on a Wii...

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: I use linux daily but...
by mcduck on Sat 20th Jan 2007 16:43 UTC in reply to "RE: I use linux daily but..."
mcduck Member since:
2005-11-23

Of course games are trickier, since that means virtualizing the graphics card, but there's no reason it can't be done. Then again, as a gamer, I find that game consoles are quite enough to satifsfy my needs. Now, if I could only get my hands on a Wii...


Funny thing is; with Wine on FC6 I get higher FPS in Counter Strike:Source and World of Warcraft than i do in Windows. (Then again, wine isn't virtualization)

Reply Score: 2

Skip
by vlado on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:17 UTC
vlado
Member since:
2005-10-26

Skip SUSe use DEBIAN.

Reply Score: 2

RE: Skip
by unoengborg on Sat 20th Jan 2007 13:02 UTC in reply to "Skip"
unoengborg Member since:
2005-07-06

Yes, Debian is a very good distro. It have lots and lots of well tested and functioning software to apt-get.

The problem is that it offers very little to the type of customers that Novell tries to target. E.g. where are the 24x7*52 support, where are the training facilities, who signs the business deal. This is the question the pointy haired bosses ordering OS upgrades want to get answered, not what kernel the new OS runs.

Many members of the Linux community sees the Novell deal with Microsoft as a cloud on the horizon, while these enterprise type guys, that Novell want to target care little for their own freedom, sees the deal as something comforting. The fact that the deal might be bad in the long run doesn't bother them as it isn't something that shows in their next quarterly report of their companies.

To succeed in the enterprise you need more than technical superiority and Novell seem to be offering it.

Reply Score: 2

RE[2]: Skip
by netpython on Sat 20th Jan 2007 13:17 UTC in reply to "RE: Skip"
netpython Member since:
2005-07-06

To succeed in the enterprise you need more than technical superiority and Novell seem to be offering it.

That's exactly the point.Their technology is far from superiour.

Reply Score: 3

RE[2]: Skip
by vlado on Sat 20th Jan 2007 13:34 UTC in reply to "Skip"
vlado Member since:
2005-10-26

Basically I prefer long-time strategy. GNU can assure that as a opposite to the MS+Novell+SUSe . So we will see.

Reply Score: 4

Linux is open for finance
by Sphinx on Sat 20th Jan 2007 03:56 UTC
Sphinx
Member since:
2005-07-09

Even in a tiny vertical niche market like equity trading the market share king Charles River Investment Management System is now powered by Linux. All any open source OS needs to do is keep it current and focus on the strengths of small incremental up-to-dates, adherence to open standards, widen the hardware support and keep improving installation, the apps will come. Just starting to feel that corporate love. Almost everybody I talk to has at least a migration plan at some stage. Signs of life at Novell are a very welcome site, (pun intended), you go big red.

Reply Score: 4

Their points are horrible
by proforma on Sat 20th Jan 2007 05:27 UTC
proforma
Member since:
2005-08-27

It is easy to say that you are better than your competition when you outright lie in your press breifings.

Their points on why you should buy their software instead of using Windows was at best a fanboy write up.

It sounds like a ton of FUD and misinformation directed by some of the linux fanboys on this website.

For example:

Windows does not come with Office, but theirs comes with open office. Well duh! You can download the same thing for Windows for free and hardly using any bandwidth.

Yet, there are tons of software that I can run on Windows that they can not.

Wow, amazing.

Reply Score: 3

RE: Their points are horrible
by Redeeman on Sat 20th Jan 2007 05:51 UTC in reply to "Their points are horrible"
Redeeman Member since:
2006-03-23

and there are tons of software that i can run on linux that windows users can not run on windows.

Wow, amazing.

Reply Score: 4

RE[2]: Their points are horrible
by cg0def on Sat 20th Jan 2007 08:03 UTC in reply to "Their points are horrible"
cg0def Member since:
2006-02-12

did either of you actually READ the white paper or any other document that was posted on the site? SLED is NOT for home users and weather or not you can run your games no it means nothing. The same goes for a lot of other software so Novell's comparison is pretty accurate. Plus finally some one came out and admitted that linux does only about 90% of what windows can ( be it Vista ).

Also Novel's version of Ooo is quite different from what you get out of the Ooo site. Saying that you can just download it off the web for free is about the the most uninformed comment I have ever seen. Yes it is still the same software but Novell has been patching it up for the various features that they'd like it have for the last 3 or so years. Actually it a lot longer than that but it used to be Ximian's doing before that.
This is like saying that Star Office and Open Office are the same thing just because they are based off the same code base.

Reply Score: 5

RE[3]: Their points are horrible
by zerohalo on Sat 20th Jan 2007 16:19 UTC in reply to "RE[2]: Their points are horrible"
zerohalo Member since:
2005-07-26

Does Novell's version of OOo have annotations/tracked-changes properly implemented? That's one feature that totally sucks in OOo (compared to MS Office) and while it's unimportant to home users, it's often vital in workflow environments. It's THE reason my organization would not switch to OOo. I'm a daily Linux/OOo user and am sold on OSS, but in my opinion, until this feature is fixed, OOo will never gain traction in most enterprises.

Reply Score: 1

RE[4]: Their points are horrible
by cromo on Sun 21st Jan 2007 15:55 UTC in reply to "RE[3]: Their points are horrible"
cromo Member since:
2006-06-17

Then speak to your management about donation/grant for this feature to be implemented in OOo. I am sure it will be cheaper than MS Office licenses.

Reply Score: 1

does their agreement with Microsoft
by mmu_man on Sat 20th Jan 2007 09:37 UTC
mmu_man
Member since:
2006-09-30

allow them to say why windows is bad ? ;)

Reply Score: 1

arctic Member since:
2006-04-19

I think so. In the US, advertisement is a bit different to european ads. There, you are allowed to say "Coke sucks and tastes like kaka, better drink Pepsi". In many european countries, this type of advertising is not allowed by law.

As both MS and Novell are US based, they are allowed to start such campaigns in the US. I don't see a problem there.

Reply Score: 1

B. Janssen Member since:
2006-10-11

arctic: In the US, advertisement is a bit different to european ads. There, you are allowed to say "Coke sucks and tastes like kaka, better drink Pepsi". In many european countries, this type of advertising is not allowed by law.

This has been changed by EU law since the year 2000. Considering the reprimands for not enacting EU law within a grace period of 5 years, i would say all old members of the EU have implemented this by now. Still, there are some limits to comparisons allowed -- mainly along the lines of good taste and manners -- so there probably are some diversions.

Reply Score: 2

arctic Member since:
2006-04-19

Oh, I somehow missed that change in laws for all those years (I must have been sleeping a lot!). Good to know anyways. ;)

Thanks.

Reply Score: 2

B. Janssen Member since:
2006-10-11

arctic: Oh, I somehow missed that change in laws for all those years (I must have been sleeping a lot!). Good to know anyways. ;)

Fear not ;-) Commercial advertising hasn't changed all that much. I guess it is some kind of self-imposed constraint. We don't poo your stuff, you don't poo our's, etc.

Reply Score: 1

ok then....
by BluenoseJake on Sat 20th Jan 2007 11:09 UTC
BluenoseJake
Member since:
2005-08-11

What would you expect Novell to say, use Windows instead of Suse? They are trying to distribute a product, and the deal from MS doesn't say "Don't try to do business" This is just total non-news

Reply Score: 1

both suck
by netpython on Sat 20th Jan 2007 12:23 UTC
netpython
Member since:
2005-07-06

When installed you might feel delighted but after a while they both suck.Slow resource hogs.So i just keep on running gentoo and save some money to buy a mac.

Reply Score: 2

RE: But do they have apps?
by lz1kwk on Sat 20th Jan 2007 15:58 UTC
lz1kwk
Member since:
2005-11-12

If a medium or large sized company refuses to run Linux it is no longer because of "apps" but for 2 reasons 1) choice to stick with the familiar or 2) they have an incompetent CTO probably weaned in the MCSE era.who has not bothered to do cost benefit analysis of the huge savings that many institutions are seeing by switching to Linux.

In every industry ....Finance, Healthcare, manufacturing, distribution, insurance etc there are hundreds of companies successfully running on a Linux/Unix infrastructure. One huge area of of savings that companies are seeing is in staffing. Having been both a Unix/Linux admin and Windows network admin I can say that what one competent admin accomplishes in a network of Linux/Unix computers takes 5 experienced Windows admins to achieve in a Windows network.

IBM is an example of one company that provides software services for every industry group on the planet. Many of these services run on Mainframes running Linux. Any corporation of 1000 computers or more can get customized apps to run any business at less than half the cost of what I have seen thrown Symantech and their ilk.

It is no longer about "apps" but it is about choice and very often this choice is driven by fear in CTOs who spend more time worrying about how to keep their jobs than how to make their institution more efficient.

Reply Score: 3

Novell: Skip Vista, Use Linux
by Oliver on Sat 20th Jan 2007 17:18 UTC
Oliver
Member since:
2006-07-15

Yes, skip Vista, kick Novell, spit on Suse, take a real Linux or BSD, be happy and don't look back :-)

Reply Score: 1

Well polished
by leukos on Sun 21st Jan 2007 01:56 UTC
leukos
Member since:
2007-01-21

I'd say opensuse 10.2 is well polished. Of course no distro is perfect, but I think they have a good balance between stability and bleeding edge.

I have a DQ965 Intel motherboard and opensuse 10.2 was the only distro to install flawlessly, without hacks. Gentoo needed voodoo kernel parameters, Scientific Linux hanged during boot and debian didn't install at all (from the CD).

Reply Score: 1

Propaganda
by moleskine on Sun 21st Jan 2007 12:15 UTC
moleskine
Member since:
2005-11-05

I've always thought that Linux should be targeted at the home user. First you get those people who basically don't do much other than surf the web and send e-mail. (Market share goes up.) As the market share rises game developers will start creating title for Linux. (Market share goes up.) You will then get better hardware support form hardware vendors and software developers will take note.

The most successful distro of recent years - Ubuntu - is targeted at the home user, arguably. Or, at least, at the inexperienced user. The same was true of SuSE before Novell came along. Remember the days of the those big, thick user manuals in the box?

I guess Microsoft's iron control of the OEM installation market has always been the obstacle to Linux for the home market.

OTOH - re what you say about developers - one could argue that FOSS developers tend to do what interests them, which might be quite obscure, rather than what's needed. Hence the thing about 20 different text editors in a distro but (incredibly, for 2007) no color profiling management built into the system, an absence that doesn't make graphics work on Linux all that appealing and surely a disincentive to would-be application porters.

SuSE 10.2 is a very good - not perfect - distro and deserves its success, imho. My own worry is that Novell are getting to sound a little shrill these days. They seem to be resorting to things that are rather gimmicky, like the new KDE/Gnome menus, and to propagandist stuff like the new website. Neither of these things is going to cause a single user to abandon Vista, imho. Novell could take a tip from the SuSE of old and put the money into solid engineering. Just my 2 cents.

Reply Score: 3

v Oh yeah, perfect solution
by walterbyrd on Sun 21st Jan 2007 15:30 UTC