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disclaimer: i mean you no disrespect here.

i think you should give the article a chance -- you might be surprised. if you want, skip to the last paragraph of the last page. (hint: the guy switchs back to a mac in the end.)

more on topic, i thought the article was well written, but i was disapointed that it seemed to focus (mainly) on polish and design of the dell laptop he used for testing, rather than.

Edited 2007-01-31 22:44

If you read the edit times on my last post, you will indeed realise that I had read the article, as I had said that he had switched back too...

never mind people not fully reading the articles, what about the ones who do not fully read the posts hahaha

So you said you can guess from the URL but then had to edit your guess after actually reading the story? Doesn't that kind of contradict being able to guess from the URL?

yes, yes it does.

sometimes I speak before I think.

as do others around this site.

Since you didn't read TFA, you missed this gem:

"Back home, I wandered over to Apple's Web site to preview what's coming in the next major upgrade to OS X, named Leopard. Lots of nice features, including the addition to sticky notes in the Mail program."

I'm eagerly anticipating Leopard, but not for sticky notes.

Actually, he didn't switch back to Mac OS X, he switched back to a MAC, because of the Design of the laptop. Didn't sound like he had too much against Vista

Of course part of the reason he didn't like the laptop was that the sleep functionality didn't work right--and this seems to be a Vista problem....

Always was one of my main motivations to get a Mac, actually--my last laptop (an HP) always had trouble reliably going to sleep--it would do it once per Windows session, but after that a full shutdown was necessary if I wanted to power it down. Then it died, though, and the used Toshiba I picked up to replace it works considerably better.

To me it is not at all weird that he switched back.

I work in Windows all day, but have only Macs at home. I know the "feeling" that he talks about -- when you sit down to your Mac, you are "home". When you sit down with Windows, you are a visitor. Like watching a movie on TV at home, with your kitchen and bathroom only a few feet away, vs. watching a movie in a theater. The kids are talking too loud and/or kicking the back of your seat... and the Coke that you drank is now nudging you out of the theater and you don't have a pause button!

I know that other people feel this way as well, even if they don't realize it -- look at all of the themes that try to make WinXP or Linux look like Mac OS X, for instance. But even though they can make WinXP or Linux (loosely) resemble a Mac, they can never make it FEEL like one, and that's why Apple is selling a lot of Macs now.

"The article comes from MSNBC, the author seems to commend Vista's various shiny new features, and in the end he switched back to OS X..."

Well, if you're paranoid, you *could* say that the entire purpose of the article is to get the sceptical Apple/Linux fans interested in actually *reading* a Vista article in the first place.

This way, they can read all about Vista's "shiny new features", which otherwise they probably wouldn't bother with.

Now question is: is MS really out to get you? :p

Edited 2007-02-01 10:14

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get me...

> uhh, you would guess wrong,
> he switched back to the Mac

Maybe i'm paranoid, but don't let them fool you.
This article is intended for Windows users, not Mac users.
I think the article has a hidden message what Vista not only as good as OsX but much better than the former Windows version.

This seems clear what they want me to upgrade to check their "new better technology" with the words like:

... and the new Windows Media Player 11. All of these programs were at once familiar but much better looking than before"

I just wish authors writing about any OS would make sure when they say an OS can or can't do something, it is correct, not that they just can't see or find it.

(For example, iPhoto can sort by folder quite easily.)

If a user after putting in reasonable effort can't work out how to do something in a program then that is almost as bad as the program not having the feature at all.

Unless the feature is put in the menu: View -> Sort Photos.

It just seems to be the article was pure advertising rather than a honest switch.

It's a list of talking points :
* Security
* Eyecandy
* Bundled Apps
* Media Center integration
* Negatives stem from hardware problems (Dell in the article)

Expect these to repeated again and again by MS-friendly media in an endless series of articles until they are taken for granted.

Edited 2007-01-31 22:55

It's a list of talking points :
* Security
* Eyecandy
* Bundled Apps

That list looks a lot like the OS X list of talking points.


* Negatives stem from hardware problems (Dell in the article)

Apple does have a serious advantage that they also control the hardware, not just the software. To flip this, all credit to Microsoft for making a huge piece of software that runs fairly well on most hardware. I want to see Apple even try, then we can start complaining about hardware. Ditto for Linux too.

That list looks a lot like the OS X list of talking points.

True, OsX is the main competitor and have just had a successfull campain based on some of those points. OsX is now widely regarded as more secure and good value because of iLife. It makes sense MS would focus on these areas.

To flip this, all credit to Microsoft for making a huge piece of software that runs fairly well on most hardware. I want to see Apple even try, then we can start complaining about hardware. Ditto for Linux too.

Sorry to burst your bubble there, but that has been done by a lot of companies for a long time. MS has created their own problem there by encouraging crappy win-modems, win-soundcards, etc ... that will barely function correctly even on Windows.

"Apple does have a serious advantage that they also control the hardware..."

Bit of a myth. They don't control it any more than Dell controls it. Both limit the hardware, maybe a better description. Apple is buying in selected components. So is Dell. Apple is using drivers to run the components. So is Dell. Apple may write some of them in-house, but is it really so important who the driver writers work for? And in many ways, perhaps its more natural they should work for the component maker?

You just do not have any more driver problems on Windows nowadays than you do on Macs, and of course Dell, HP etc test the combinations of hardware and OS and drivers they are going to ship as thoroughly as Apple does. Linux you do have more problems - scanners and some printers and some modems.

The Windows driver issues in my experience vanished several years ago, after having diminished sharply still earlier.

The Windows driver issues in my experience vanished several years ago, after having diminished sharply still earlier.

Because all the hardware components are at least designed for windows and thus come delivered with drivers.Is that due to MS?

"The Windows driver issues in my experience vanished several years ago, after having diminished sharply still earlier."

Until you loose your Windows XP installation CD and can't install the driver for your digital camera any longer; because *even though* the wizard can search on the internet and *even though* you validated the thing in the first place, the wizard *keeps* asking for an installation CD.

And then you go the the website of the company who made your camera, you download a bunch of stuff, some photo manipulation software you don't want gets installed and your digital camera STILL doesn't work. The fact it's the vendor's "fault" doesn't make it less frustrating.

Yes, this happened to me. And maybe I'm an exception, I don't know.

What I do know, is that when I rebooted to a certain Linux distro, I plugged in & powered the camera, and a window came popping up asking me what to do with the files. So I downloaded the photos and sorted them in Digikam.

So in my experience, they didn't entirely vanish just yet.

Edited 2007-02-01 11:38

Yeah. We all know linux controls most of the hardware it runs on! And of course, micro-poor-soft is having a hell of a hard time figuring out how to reverse engineer the drivers to run on those linux controlled hardware vendors.

huhum...

I just can't figure out what is wrong with my above paragraph... can anyone help me ?

"or he's obviously getting paid to do it"

a professional journalist being paid to write an article?

hold the front page!

I also see where he got a Zune that Microsoft GAVE to him.. which seems to make it a setup article, or he's obviously getting paid to do it.

*sigh* You have no idea how this journalism thing works, right? How do you think all those reviewers on websites get their stuff? Do you think they all buy those products themselves?

It is common practice that manufacturers either loan or give you as a journalist stuff for review. It does not influence the way you write a review; Apple NL loaned me a brand spanking new MacBook Pro (worth 2800E) and I wrote a negative review of the thing (for whatever reasons, I didn't like it).

That is the way journalism works. ALL companies give out free shit for reviews. Remember that ModBook we reported on? The converted-into-a-tablet MacBook?

One will be coming my way. For free. I have no idea yet if I have to give it back (probably yes, usually stuff above 200-300E must be returned); either way, you can expect an honest review of this 2000E+ machine. Whether I have paid for it or not.

---

If you knew a thing or two about psychology, you'd know that if you have paid for a product and it sucks, you will justifiy your purchase by i.e. ignoring its downsides, only to sooth your own discomfort about having bought a bad product.

In other words, getting free stuff makes the review MORE honest, instead of less. Go compare reviews of people who have BOUGHT a MacBook Pro to those reviewers who got one for FREE. Now see which ones are more negative.

*sigh* You have no idea how this journalism thing works, right? How do you think all those reviewers on websites get their stuff? Do you think they all buy those products themselves?

Actually, Consumer Magazine in NZ do buy all their stuff. I used to sell them things when I worked in retail. They are probably the most respected source of consumer affair information in NZ, from the best products to buy, to the best way to use them.

I have a work colleague here who used to work for a magazine company. He supports your statement and adds that reviewers will simply favour their article to whoever paid the most for advertising etc.

The *magazine* buying the stuff still isn't the same as the reviewer himself having to pay for it. To the reviewer, it's still like he's gotten it for free.

"In other words, getting free stuff makes the review MORE honest"

Ignoring the rest of the tripe...I cannot think of a response that would;should not get me modded right down. My moral sensibilities are actually twiching.

A bribe is a bribe is a bribe...we live in a crooked world of lies and half truths.

I'll tell you what will make reviewers more honest...they can't keep stuff.

Alienware
http://alienwares-cks.blogspot.com/

Microsoft
http://www.istartedsomething.com/20061227/microsoft-free-ferrari/

etc etc. that without the simpering to journalists. Its disgusting.

Thom, I don't know what to say.

I wasn't exactly bias to either Operating system, or any operating system for that matter, I use them all on a daily basis for 8hrs a day.

I've got Windows servers and clients over many versions, OS X server and clients, Unix Servers and Clients, and also Linux servers and clients.

So I tend to see the bigger picture when it comes to reviewers who actually do a review, and really do inform people about the pro's and cons of each and give a good argument as to features.

I got mixed feelings from that "Article" myself, to me, getting given a laptop I would skew a review because you think to yourself "Hey, gee, that's good of them to provide me with a product, +1 point there"

That Article to me was nothing but a big site that is largely involved with the company he was cheering for.
And only because the majority of other tech sites are saying bad things about Vista. They need to balance the tide.

Hey, I love parts of all OS's, and there's parts I don't like, I base my decision on what will do the job best for the situation at hand.

From your articles, I've only seen Linux = Best, OS X = Worst.

Edited 2007-02-01 03:02

The article lacked any real research into what the OS can do and cannot do at this time. Also I'm sure readers would of liked to know how it not only compares to Windows XP but other OS such as OSX, not just what eye candy Microsoft is selling to customers.

I don't have a current Apple system to actually compare but if OSX is anything like current Linux distributions I'm fairly sure it doesn't require as much resources to run as Windows Vista. 1 GB of RAM is a lot to ask of an OS just for the minimum system requirement. After all OpenSUSE/SLED can run on 512 MB RAM and even PCLinuxOS can run on 256 MB RAM.

I'm frequently evaluating software and I'm more impressed with PCLinuxOS 2007 Test Release 1 than with what I experienced testing Windows Vista. I had two crash dumps (infamous Blue Screen Of Death) running Windows Vista on a test system while running Windows Media Player and surfing the net using IE. There's also a severe lack of Vista support from third party hardware/software comapnies. The same test system has no issues running PCLinuxOS and OpenSUSE, both which actually use less memory than Vista while running. For those curious the test system runs an Intel P4 3.2 GHz (Hyperthreading enabled), Abit IC7-G motherboard, 2 GB RAM, Geforce FX 6600 GT.

It's not all negative about Vista as I do like what Microsoft has done with UAC to be more in line like Linux distributions to ensure better security. I also found Live OneCare to be a useful and user friendly application that offers more security and peace of mind for consumers. Though I believe it would benefit Microsoft to lower the pricing on Windows Vista versions including Live OneCare to be more competitive.

@archiesteel

I am none of both. Though thanks for reminding me of astroturfing. We've seen our fare share of that behaviour from the OSS fundies since the imminent release of Windows Vista. Lotsa FUD (DRM, treated like a criminal lol, etc...)

However there are no MS fundies. There isn't something even comparable in the MS world. The average MS fanboy doesn't go launching a barrage of insults when faced with even the smallest amount of criticism. Unlike the average Mac and Linux/BSD users, Mac zealots and OSS fundies can't take any critism at all. They'll never admit that they're wrong even though they made a mistake.

Never seen hate mail from windows users though...

@ronaldst

I'm off-topic; The quality of posts does range quite a lot, but most are pretty good; yours aren't.

You are not good enough for astroturfing. Have a look for MollyC. Who is IMO one of the greatest pro-microsoft posters here. Her posts are of a quality that I could only hope to match. I suggest you look her up...she should be paid by Microsoft if she is not.

Since you insist on religious imagery to fan the flames, perhaps you should consider Luke 6:41...

"And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not perceive the plank in your own eye?"

There are quite a few MS-or-nothing posters here and on other Internet forums. They are just as fanatical as overenthusiastic Linux or OS X users, and they do easily resort to ad hominem attacks against those who disagree with them. One of their favorite insult is to call anyone who dares criticize Microsoft "zealots" or "fundies".

So, before pointing out the speck in other people's eyes, consider the plank in your own.

Oh, by the way, Linux advocates *can't* be astroturfers - Linux companies don't have enough money to buy fake grassroots support. Instead, they have *real* grassroots support.

"You must be new to the scene. OS wars, cult personalities and blind fanatism...

Basically they are like the average OSS fundie except the Mac zealots are less messed up in the head. Take this for example: The Mac zealot doesn't care to "save the world" (aka activism, like the DRM scare) like the OSS fundie does.

Both need therapy."

I don't think you get it. You've been modded down, you use *inappropriate* words the only word that you could use is *fanatic*. It comes from the word fan.

I don't like MAC OS X, but the *one* thing I do understand is how you could be a *fan* of apple.

1) They are the underdog
2) The machines are fashionable;stylish;slick etc.
3) Run *applications* designers are attracted to *adobe*, who are often fashionable;stylish;slick etc. themselves.
4) Innovative/Popularize new concepts.
5) ...and keep doing it

I use Linux, I know exactly why I use Linux
1) Control
Linux users talk about GPL3,Privacy,EULA's,DRM,Trusted computing.

I'm not saying they didn't use it as a job, or wanted to try; learn something new; or had some specific requirement for it; Or it costs nothing; Or its Cool(sic) in the way you can compile it all

New users talk about it just working; who cares about the source...I don't program!? Why cant I just click a download and some next buttons? Why is everything in separate directories; Its a tool etc etc

...and then comes a point when you use a IBM Clone, and you don't feel in control, and you understand Why?

Vistas EULA over 3500 words *with* web references telling me what I *can't* do. GPL3 contains 417 words telling me what I *can*.

Seriously tell me like you like Microsoft. I've spent half an hour of my time telling you why people *love* their operating systems...and I haven't mentioned *ONE* technical detail; performance; stability etc etc, because the reality is they're all *good enough*.

I wish I was better with words.

Edited 2007-02-01 01:52

[/i]People use the words fanatics, zealots, retards and noobs all the time and don't get moderated down.[/i]

Yes, they do.

"No. You don't get it. I have been modded down because I told my opinion and people didn't like it. So they abused their moderation points so they could feel better. People use the words fanatics, zealots, retards and noobs all the time and don't get moderated down."

Actually, they do.

"But in the end, it will have zero impact. As this is an area that isn't important at all for the average PC user.

Which is pretty much what he said mind you in a round about way.

"Write more. It's gonna expand your vocabulary."

Doesn't seems to have helped you. I would advocate reading more to improve your vocabulary. And if you want to be able to hold your own in a discussion or disagreement, trying to understand your opponents point of view without disregarding it as "FUD" is generally considered an intelligent move.

Dude, if you actually knew more about what you where talking about, you could be the next NotPatker. I advise you keep working at it as your not quite there yet.

I am a Mac switcher, since just before Christmas. I have joined a few Mac user groups. What I have found is that Mac users appear in my experience to have a healthy skepticism about Apple, and a more subtle ability to distinguish between good and bad aspects of OS X than this statement involving religious zealotry would imply. I mean, I am surprised that this is the case, but it's the case for me, at least.

You are referring to Mac *users* as opposed to Mac *fanboys*. I'm one of the former but not the latter. There's a big difference.

Check out and compare the posts at the "comp.sys.mac.misc" usenet group with those at "comp.sys.mac.advocacy", and you'll see the difference at once.

But I'd agree that even Mac *fanboys* don't really exhibit "religious zealotry" (though there is the cult of personality regarding Steve Jobs); more like enthusiasm spilled over into smugness and a superiority complex (again, I'm talking about the *fanboys* not the normal users). "Religious zealotry" is more aptly ascribed to the followers of RMS and the like.

"fanboys" oooh thats so well not a really good description really.

Where I lived fanboys *used* to mean those young men, with long hair, who had a band proudly displayed on there black T-shirt.

Its come to mean console related, because most are young men passionate about there console.

I stopped being a boy a *long* time ago. I'm tired of this gender hating phrase. Its just really more appropriate on other forums.

"Religious zealotry" is responsible for the Brutal Murder an men, women and children throughout world; leaving countless Millions living in fear. Richard Stallman is one of the main player in the Free software movement....spot the difference.

@MollyC we all know you love Microsoft

Edited 2007-02-01 18:35

Over the last few years, "fanboy" has come to mean, in tech circles, one who sees almost nothing wrong with his tech of choice (be it a game console, OS, mp3 player, etc), and sees almost nothing right about the alternatives (or is at least loathe to admit it).

Edited 2007-02-01 20:27

If only the Vista team had the balls of the Office GUI team I'd have been far, far more impressed with Vista.

Meh. The only concern about the shiny UI I Have is how to turn it off Give me Win32 classic, or give me death.

Now there's once thing that MS kicks Apple's butt with.... Media Centre, Apple TV / Front Row / Eye TV are hopelessly outclassed by the MCE front end, it's just a shame about it's DRM infection.

What, so you think that there is no DRM in the Mac?

No need to take a bullet for the mac here. That isn't even what he was saying. He was complaining about DRM in general. (or at least it clearly comes across that way)

Err, there's zero DRM in EyeTV, that ain't the case the MCE, it's got broadcast content flags for D-TV and uses dvr-ms instead of mpeg2 / mpeg 4 for recordings.

Yes Apple has DRM but not on *MY* stuff. It's god damn everywhere in Vista.

I hate drm, I don't buy stuff from itunes for two reasons:-

1. The bitrate is lower than tunes I can create from DRM free CD's.

2. Tunes I rip from my CD's are DRM free and can be played on jut about anything, MP3 is cool for that reason. I'd go Ogg based if there was more hardware support.

dvr-ms is simply MPEG2 wrapped in a container that contains meta-data (such as, the TV Program's title, cast, when it was recorded, etc). It's convenient to have all that in one file, so you can store it on a harddrive or DVD, and later move the file to other MCE machines and be able to read that data through the MCE UI.

There are programs available that allow you to extract the raw MPEG2, and of course you can burn a recorded TV program to a normal DVD video disc.

As for honoring the broadcast flags, so what? Lot's of consumer electronic devices honor those flags. My old Panny DVR certainly did.

And Apple, a member of BDA (blu-ray disc association), will include in OSX Leopard the DRM required to play protected BR and HD-DVD discs; the same "draconian" DRM that Vista has.

I still don't know why people keep spreading the Vista-DRM FUD, when dedicated hardware players use that exact same DRM to play hi-def movie discs, and not a word is said about it. And those players are used much more than Vista to play such discs, so if anyone is worried about DRM, they should be worried about it on those players before worrying about it in Vista.

Edited 2007-02-01 20:26

@MollyC thats my girl

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVR-MS

Its not simply anything.

Its a DRM enumbered *proprietary* video and audio file format.

I'm sure you are also aware that much like say AVI or WAV can be extended at will . The difference is in the DRM.

Also for fun Apple is no reference to DRM, Microsoft is the Monopoly here. Is Apple better than Microsoft when it comes to DRM. The answer is "Yes" and then "No".

Microsoft force; Apple velvet handcuffs.

Oddly enough I can do what I want with my MythTV content no DRM in there at all, even automatically remove commercials.

It's the new Ribbon UI. I've tried it a few time. It takes time to get used to it but I find it more efficient and takes less clicks to do what I want.

I hope it makes it's way into the next Visual Studio. ^_^

I really like that new UI. Sure it is different, but it is very effective.

-G